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View Full Version : Returning S+10 Glitchers? YOU can help save the UNIVERSE!



CHA0TIX
Sep 10, 2008, 07:13 AM
Many people are reporting that they have seen Guardians return that were banned 7 months ago for gitching S+10's , with their illegal stash still in storage, but no one is doing anything about it.

I did. - I'd had enough of this one guy who was bragging about how he still has hundreds of stacks of S+10s, and slagging sega support off for being stupid at the same time. So I took a stand.

I signed up at help.sega.com, and wrote in, with the details of the Glitcher.(account ID, Xbox Live Gamer Tag etc..)

I got a reply from a nice guy called Arron just a few hours later.

He said he had looked into the guys account, confirmed that he SHOULD NOT have been unbanned, and killed the account. "Permanently this time."

Arron also said that he had "looked at the logs" for the guy in question, and managed to pull up enough info to warrent the ban.

SO, there you go. SEGA is ready and waiting to help us. We just need to ask.

NOTE: Please be SURE you are reporting someone who has glitched S+10s... MANY people have invested in a few stacks to make money in the bonus. While I am sure SEGA would only act on evidence, please don't try and ruin the game for someone innocent.

Telina
Sep 10, 2008, 07:45 AM
That is all self-less and noble, but to be completely honest i can definitly see something of a witch hunt in the near future if too many people follow suit. Sega has shown they're willing to TRY, but if we try and get them to TRY too hard....well they may just say screw it.

Don't get me wrong, thanks for presenting an option to people out there who are a little perturbed by the influx of these banned accounts. But i've a feeling if this practice becomes main stream, SEGA will have way too much on their plate. Its hard enough for them to provide us updates let alone police their own server.....

CHA0TIX
Sep 10, 2008, 07:51 AM
That is all self-less and noble, but to be completely honest i can definitly see something of a witch hunt in the near future if too many people follow suit. Sega has shown they're willing to TRY, but if we try and get them to TRY too hard....well they may just say screw it.

Don't get me wrong, thanks for presenting an option to people out there who are a little perturbed by the influx of these banned accounts. But i've a feeling if this practice becomes main stream, SEGA will have way too much on their plate. Its hard enough for them to provide us updates let alone police their own server.....

I don't imagine support would be the same team as updates. But you never know!

And also, if they are inundated with legit re-ban requests, then it's only fair that they work their way throught the problems.

:D

Syaoran_69
Sep 10, 2008, 07:56 AM
So wait... Segac is giving us the service we pay them to give us? Yay?

DarkEliteRico
Sep 10, 2008, 08:23 AM
I wouldn't mind their stuff just magically showing up in shops for dirt cheap, give them like 30 minutes to clear out their gachas and shop before their wiped for good, a few thousand more S+10's would send the market into shock again lol

Cracka_J
Sep 10, 2008, 08:52 AM
Actually, I've seen similar results with this Arron guy.

Not going to name the situation or what happened, but a friend received some information regarding the pc/ps2 servers and the coming weeks. I advised him to send his IM log into support, since they seem to be encouraging people to send in anything vital to the servers recently. Arron responded to him and basically said they would be on the lookout, and encouraged him to send in more info if he obtained it.

Seems they may not be taking matters so lightly anymore, which is encouraging. So really, if you hear or see anything fishy going on in game, or talk of things that could effect the servers in the future, send them a ticket. For some reason, they seem to be much more willing to accept and investigate them now.

RufuSwho
Sep 10, 2008, 12:16 PM
hell ya!

nice fricken job man

more of the same please

Alastor_Haven
Sep 10, 2008, 12:28 PM
Impressive

BigshowPat
Sep 10, 2008, 12:41 PM
Now if you can only get them to fix the lag and catch up the update schedule...

Complex_Jao
Sep 10, 2008, 06:40 PM
i bought 99 S+10s for 400k a peace. Does that mean im gunna get banned

NELDAZ
Sep 10, 2008, 06:57 PM
Well Now that you think you are the self proclaimed General, You got a person banned that did NOT have any grinders. He had less than 50k in meseta. Also the only reason he said that he had any grinders is because YOU kept pressuring him to sell you some, and when you wouldnt take NO for an answer he told you that to get you off his back. He came back and said that he was sorry for any thing that he had done in the past. So congrats on being an Idiot, who thinks he knows everything. Ive also come to the conclusion that Sega can not check accounts. Cause if they would have they would have seen that there were no grinders in his possession. So here we go again Guilty until proven Innocent.

Complex_Jao
Sep 10, 2008, 07:49 PM
Well Now that you think you are the self proclaimed General, You got a person banned that did NOT have any grinders. He had less than 50k in meseta. Also the only reason he said that he had any grinders is because YOU kept pressuring him to sell you some, and when you wouldnt take NO for an answer he told you that to get you off his back. He came back and said that he was sorry for any thing that he had done in the past. So congrats on being an Idiot, who thinks he knows everything. Ive also come to the conclusion that Sega can not check accounts. Cause if they would have they would have seen that there were no grinders in his possession. So here we go again Guilty until proven Innocent.go away no one cares...well at least i dont care

H3Av3NS PUNISH3R
Sep 10, 2008, 07:54 PM
i bought 99 S+10s for 400k a peace. Does that mean im gunna get banned

No, you will not get banned, the person who gave them to you might.

Powder Keg
Sep 10, 2008, 07:55 PM
http://k43.pbase.com/o5/42/267742/1/68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn.gif

NELDAZ
Sep 10, 2008, 07:58 PM
go away no one cares...well at least i dont care
Then hopefully this happens to you, so you can see how it feels to have some one lie about you

H3Av3NS PUNISH3R
Sep 10, 2008, 08:01 PM
Then hopefully this happens to you, so you can see how it feels to have some one lie about you

Did you get banned from the servers?

NELDAZ
Sep 10, 2008, 08:04 PM
No it wasnt me, it was a friend that I know very well that did nothing wrong, except mess w/ this chaotix

Powder Keg
Sep 10, 2008, 08:16 PM
No it wasnt me, it was a friend that I know very well that did nothing wrong, except mess w/ this chaotix

I really doubt that people get banned without logs being investigated and the team finding something.

Complex_Jao
Sep 10, 2008, 08:16 PM
Then hopefully this happens to you, so you can see how it feels to have some one lie about you
i have not done anything wrong in the past so i dont see how the mods would think i had done anything wrong if i tell them otherwise...your friend on the otherhand might have gotten a temp ban or had done something that the GMs didint much care for

lanvandam
Sep 10, 2008, 08:29 PM
so u snitched lmao

CHA0TIX
Sep 11, 2008, 08:49 AM
No it wasnt me, it was a friend that I know very well that did nothing wrong, except mess w/ this chaotix

How do you even know that your friend is the same guy that got re-banned because of my tip off? People get banned all the time for many reasons... is your friend even telling you everything? Someone's story can't be taken as fact just becasue you know them.

The guy I'm talking about went around trading stacks of S+10's for Spread Needle/G's. I witnessed one transaction myself.

Then a month later, I spot him in the room of someone selling S+10's, winding the seller up, and still bragging about how many he has.

Also, a quick fun fact - They had already received complaints about this fella, I just simpled things up with screengrabs and ID numbers.

It was SEGA's call. I just tipped them off. They thanked me. The end.

I didn't start this thread to say "HA!, IN YOUR FACE!" to the guy that got RE-banned, but to show that one guy can make a diffrence, and help the community avoid some serious problems.

thematesV2
Sep 11, 2008, 09:05 AM
yet again, I find it funny. this is another way of playing. you play the game by your rules, not segas, but sega holds the keys to get in and out. you play by the rules, you stay and keep playing, you play by your own rules, you risk being kicked. I don't think the guys exploiting the S+10 glitch are "cheating" they are using a game system that has holes in it to make tons of fake money. it's like when you play monopoly with your girlfriend. she sits across the table and when your down on money, she hands you some with her toes....

anyhow, i know people are going to be mad about what I say, and thats fine too. this is all part of the game we play, all of it. the cheating and the economy, the player shops and the inflation. the message boards and the flames. everything is the game, so people play it how they want. some people cheat, some people report, other people sit back, watch and contemplate.

sorry, this was a double post... well, so long, i feel like sitting back with my coffee, watching, and doing some contemplation

NELDAZ
Sep 11, 2008, 02:41 PM
Nice you pretty much hit the nail on the head...lol

Cracka_J
Sep 11, 2008, 03:20 PM
I don't think the guys exploiting the S+10 glitch are "cheating" they are using a game system that has holes in it to make tons of fake money.

this is all part of the game we play, all of it. the cheating and the economy, the player shops and the inflation. the message boards and the flames. everything is the game, so people play it how they want. some people cheat, some people report, other people sit back, watch and contemplate.

Well, just as you stated the S+10 glitch is an exploit, just like the MG glitch, etc., etc.

It clearly states in the ToS that any abusive usage of an exploit can be a bannable offense. So whether or not you consider that "cheating", you know the possible consequences, and you know you are playing the game in a way that was not intended by the designer. I think that gives pretty much every legit player the right to submit a ticket on anyone they suspect of abusing cheats or exploits, regardless of your definition or interpretation of "cheating".

Kylie
Sep 11, 2008, 03:29 PM
http://k43.pbase.com/o5/42/267742/1/68416045.wGDPMlLK.popcorn.gif
sharr pls

Well. this is going to be fun. I wonder why they were unbanned in the first place. Hmm.

Alastor_Haven
Sep 11, 2008, 03:47 PM
Well, just as you stated the S+10 glitch is an exploit, just like the MG glitch, etc., etc.

It clearly states in the ToS that any abusive usage of an exploit can be a bannable offense. So whether or not you consider that "cheating", you know the possible consequences, and you know you are playing the game in a way that was not intended by the designer. I think that gives pretty much every legit player the right to submit a ticket on anyone they suspect of abusing cheats or exploits, regardless of your definition or interpretation of "cheating".

Agreed

You're friends an idiot for fucking bragging in the first place
If he really did

NELDAZ
Sep 11, 2008, 03:49 PM
To make along story really short 1 person found the glitch.. Then told every one so then pretty much every one tried it. So they get banned for just plain being stupid (knowing it is a banable offense). Then they get a second chance.. Know someone says that they are glitching again, with out "proof" to sega. Sega doesnt do there home work (as Usaual) and this person gets banned cause someone said so.. As I said before. Sega doesnt have the capability to check the physical accounts.. If so my friend would have been cleared. The reason I know this is because he was out of meseta.. I gave him some the day before he got banned.. So Sega does NOT check these accounts they ckeck the text messages from the players involved and if they think someone has done something wrong through these texts they get banned

Complex_Jao
Sep 11, 2008, 05:43 PM
"so then pretty much every one tried it" i never tryed it. I was at school and when i got home i was told about it and how the GMs were banning for it so i didint even try...i didint even know how the glitch was done till about a month ago

xikr0n
Sep 11, 2008, 11:55 PM
I understand why a company would not want glitches and exploits to be used for many reasons and why Sega takes steps to resolve these issues to protect the economy etc. but at the same time I truly have never understood the consequences for taking advantage of them.

It's almost like Sega saying "Oh, woops... It looks like our programmers seem to be prone to mistakes and our software is able to be exploited. We are going to have to refuse money from our customers and ban them for life because they are using these mistakes to there advantage instead of admitting it's our fault and that we should just probably fix the problem and applogize."

Personally it does not make any since to me but hey what can you do. You can only take over the world one day at a time. ;)

Juza
Sep 12, 2008, 02:40 AM
It's almost like Sega saying "Oh, woops... It looks like our programmers seem to be prone to mistakes and our software is able to be exploited. We are going to have to refuse money from our customers and ban them for life because they are using these mistakes to there advantage instead of admitting it's our fault and that we should just probably fix the problem and applogize."

:roll:

Cracka_J
Sep 12, 2008, 08:09 AM
It's almost like Sega saying "Oh, woops... It looks like our programmers seem to be prone to mistakes and our software is able to be exploited. We are going to have to refuse money from our customers and ban them for life because they are using these mistakes to there advantage instead of admitting it's our fault and that we should just probably fix the problem and applogize."

Again, take the 5 minutes to read the ToS.

It doesn't matter what you think, or if these glitches can be justified. There is no gray area. Abusing any cheat, exploit, or glitch is a bannable offense, end of argument.

How 'bout next time you people find something stupid or broken in the game, keep your mouths shut and submit a ticket. No damage done to the community, no ban on your part. Simple solution that takes less then 5 minutes to do.

Stop the popularity contest, submit a damn ticket.

CHA0TIX
Sep 12, 2008, 08:14 AM
How 'bout next time you people find something stupid or broken in the game, keep your mouths shut and submit a ticket. No damage done to the community, no ban on your part. Simple solution that takes less then 5 minutes to do.

Stop the popularity contest, submit a damn ticket.

This dude makes a lot of sence. In short, don't make a YouTube how-to guide. :D

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 08:23 AM
@Cracka_J
It clearly states in the ToS that any abusive usage of an exploit can be a bannable offense. So whether or not you consider that "cheating", you know the possible consequences, and you know you are playing the game in a way that was not intended by the designer. I think that gives pretty much every legit player the right to submit a ticket on anyone they suspect of abusing cheats or exploits, regardless of your definition or interpretation of "cheating".
yes, you are right, I said the same thing in my post. play by segas rules, keep playing, play by your own rules, risk being kicked.


@NELDAZ
Sega doesnt do there home work (as Usaual) and this person gets banned cause someone said so.. As I said before. Sega doesnt have the capability to check the physical accounts..

do you work for sega? I highly doubt it. therefore do not put actions into their behavior. do not say as an absolute that they don't do their home work and that they do not have the capability to check the "physical" accounts.... (what physical accounts? everything is always digital...) if you do not work there, do not state what their capabilities are, you will probably end up being very wrong.

I don't work there, but I assume that they not only have the ability to check accounts, they probably also do their homework... whether they have the money/time/manpower to do those things, on the other hand, I don't know.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 08:30 AM
also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracka_J

How 'bout next time you people find something stupid or broken in the game, keep your mouths shut and submit a ticket. No damage done to the community, no ban on your part. Simple solution that takes less then 5 minutes to do.

Stop the popularity contest, submit a damn ticket.


I disagree here, only because in my opinion, when your talking about a multiplayer game, you have to take all of the behavior into account. not just the movement and scores on the board. if poker was played like this, then it would be a game completely played by luck alone. people play the game, thats all there is to it. people play in the grey area, people play in the white area, and in the black area... if it's a game that has no effect on real life besides the 10 bucks a month and the time you divest into it, then it's not a matter of playing it right or wrong. sure, I get ticked every time I get booted as soon as I enter a party, but just as quick, the leader of that party is on my blacklist, and he's lost one more person to play with, it's all the game, it's not right or wrong.

it's not life, which makes it such a great escape and a great fun distraction.. but which also takes away those right and wrong choices. ignorance still exists, so does pride and stupidity. but people can choose how they want to play, who they want to be, completely.

unlike in real life.

Powder Keg
Sep 12, 2008, 08:32 AM
also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracka_J



I disagree here, only because in my opinion, when your talking about a multiplayer game, you have to take all of the behavior into account. not just the movement and scores on the board. if poker was played like this, then it would be a game completely played by luck alone. people play the game, thats all there is to it. people play in the grey area, people play in the white area, and in the black area... if it's a game that has no effect on real life besides the 10 bucks a month and the time you divest into it, then it's not a matter of playing it right or wrong. sure, I get ticked every time I get booted as soon as I enter a party, but just as quick, the leader of that party is on my blacklist, and he's lost one more person to play with, it's all the game, it's not right or wrong.

it's not life, which makes it such a great escape and a great fun distraction.. but which also takes away those right and wrong choices. ignorance still exists, so does pride and stupidity. but people can choose how they want to play, who they want to be, completely.

unlike in real life.

lmfao what?

Cracka_J
Sep 12, 2008, 08:45 AM
can someone please prescribe me something more powerful then a facepalm...

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 09:01 AM
what would be more powerful than a falcepalm?

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 09:07 AM
i guess what I was saying, and I was kind of unclear about it, was that in my opinion, there is no damage being done to the community by the community. no matter how many people quit, who-ever is left IS the community. no damage done. it was the choice of the quitters to quit.

sega, on the other hand, is damaging the community by not supporting this game enough.

people will play it as they please, thats why it's a game, and not real life. we are free to choose what we want, as the choices do not return such a strong reprimand/reward.

I was also saying that the fandom is also part of the game. people becoming obsessed with their characters, people posting on forums, people flaming on forums. it's all part of the game we subscribe to. (most of it we don't even have to pay for. except in time and frustration/enjoyment)

relentless
Sep 12, 2008, 09:12 AM
I wonder why they were unbanned in the first place. Hmm.

One case I have witnessed before: Whining and begging for mercy, and that about one year long. Ruby can be too soft sometimes. Probably.


can someone please prescribe me something more powerful then a facepalm...

Maybe one of these 2.

[spoiler-box]
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/ThaiSoup/lold.jpg

http://runesque.blogs.friendster.com/photos/uncategorized/geass66.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Powder Keg
Sep 12, 2008, 09:55 AM
i guess what I was saying, and I was kind of unclear about it, was that in my opinion, there is no damage being done to the community by the community. no matter how many people quit, who-ever is left IS the community. no damage done. it was the choice of the quitters to quit.

sega, on the other hand, is damaging the community by not supporting this game enough.

people will play it as they please, thats why it's a game, and not real life. we are free to choose what we want, as the choices do not return such a strong reprimand/reward.

I was also saying that the fandom is also part of the game. people becoming obsessed with their characters, people posting on forums, people flaming on forums. it's all part of the game we subscribe to. (most of it we don't even have to pay for. except in time and frustration/enjoyment)

Right. I guess the shitload of people who left when haxeta first arrived and the player shop glitching was just a coincidence.

Elnendil
Sep 12, 2008, 10:01 AM
So if there's no community, there's a community.

FLAWLESS LOGIC.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 12:39 PM
#1 @ Elnendil, i didn't say that when the community count reaches 0 then theres still a community........ that would be fun logic though....

I said that the community is as big as it is.

that means when 50 people leave a 100 person community, then the 50 person community is still there, still playing... still a community

When it reaches 0, then your right, there will be no community, but that also means that sega has taken the game off the servers... which will mean that there's no online game (official) anymore..

#2 @Artea:

Right.
not right....wrong


no, i'm not saying it's a coincidence. I am saying that those people chose to leave either by their own free will, ran out of money, or were banned by sega,

those are the only three ways to quit a game. people leaving because they are too fed up with "cheaters" are still leaving of their own free will, not because the cheaters/cheating made them leave.

DeZZ
Sep 12, 2008, 12:39 PM
It is our responsibility to take care of each other. This is a community. Real life or not, we still have to take care of each other to some extent. Sega is not here to 'police' us, and in a perfect world, they wouldn't have to. In a perfect world, there would be no opportunities to exploit glitches, because there would be none. However, we all know this is an imperfect place, and we are left to our own moral authority as to how to behave, as well as SEGA's rules and regulations. Cheating affects us all, sometimes we don't notice it, a lot of times we do. Sega can only do so much without our help. I commend you for being an example of integrity.

There are many aspects of this game which are eating away at our population's morale causing our numbers to decline. Lack of updates and billing errors are certainly not helping but we have little to no control over most of those problems other than formal complaints. However, cheating is the one area we do control. We can choose to do the right thing, to not exploit an error in the system. People who exploit glitches need to realize that while their short-term gain helps them, it's only short-term, and while they may have selfishly benefited, the community as a whole suffers.

Those who have the ability to do what's right have the responsiblity to do just that. We cannot complain about problems with this game if we are not willing to be part of the solution.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 12:47 PM
I agree, that would be the moral thing to do. but as games have always been a way for people to escape their boring life, or their dull life, or their tiring life. we can't expect people to uphold the same types of morality in their game world. in fact, playing the game the way it was made is going against our morals.. inspiring the deaths of millions of animals, and the hunt for ever deadlier more powerful weapons and skills so we can kill more.. (granted, real life does seem like this on the large scale sometimes.....)

anyhow, it's all opinions, and like you said... sega isn't there to police us. so we have the freedom to share those ideas

DeZZ
Sep 12, 2008, 01:03 PM
I don't play to 'escape' from anything. I play the game, because it's entertaining. No one should 'accept' cheating just because the person doing it doesn't consider it cheating. As far as not 'expecting' people to uphold the same types of morality, I understand that our definitions of morality are subject to interpretation. However, I can and DO expect fellow gamers to uphold the regulations of the game set forth by SEGA, which we voluntarily agree to uphold everytime we sign online, and should we disagree on our interpretation of those regulations, then SEGA can step in and clarify.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 01:25 PM
Again, take the 5 minutes to read the ToS.

It doesn't matter what you think, or if these glitches can be justified. There is no gray area. Abusing any cheat, exploit, or glitch is a bannable offense, end of argument.

How 'bout next time you people find something stupid or broken in the game, keep your mouths shut and submit a ticket. No damage done to the community, no ban on your part. Simple solution that takes less then 5 minutes to do.

Stop the popularity contest, submit a damn ticket.

There are exploiters and glitchers in almost all online and offline games. It's common practice you see.. ToS or no Tos for any online game they exist and every company is fully aware that they will exist and take measures to stop them. No one is arguing the fact that the actions the exploiters use can and have been proven to effect the game world in a negative way but if Sega leaves the front door open people are gonna come inside. They know that, I know that and hopefully you know that but punishing people and refusing money from people instead of just simply fixing the holes is shooting themselves in the foot. Considering PSU is not one of the most popular online experiences out there at the moment you would think Sega would be doing all they could to keep paying customers.

You can use the ToS excuse all you want but that is not gonna stop the millions of exploiters across any and all online/offline games. If the holes didn't exist there would be no discussion and that section of the ToS would not even be needed. Don't release a game that can be exploited if you don't want it to be exploited. Plain and simple.

Perfect Chaos Zero
Sep 12, 2008, 01:27 PM
Frankly, if you cheat, you deserve to be banned. You ARE hurting the community because you are completely and utterly ruining the game by destroying the economy. There is no "playing by your own rules", there is however "robbing everyone else's gaming experience to make yourself feel big". Glitched S+10s do nothing but take meseta out of the hands of people who worked hard for it and placing it in the hands of people who didn't do any work at all. This also completely destroys the reasonable pricing of most things by driving the price of just about anything up super high. Why sell anything for less than a stack of meseta when you can make a stack of meseta in 5 minutes by cheating? Increase in meseta in the market means an increase in prices, because meseta itself becomes horribly devalued.

Anyone who cheats is pathetic and deserves to be banned for life, the end. Personally, I think every S+10 in the game just needs to be deleted, that should fix up the economy. Though I'm sure a lot of people with stacks of them will object to this, hehehe. As far as the "fixing the problem instead of banning", it's the people who have the "let's ruin the game" mind set that cause these problems in the first place. These players tend to be egotistical elitists who party kick other players for not having 50% on GBR, etc. Banning these players improves the game for everyone else and will help the population regrow in the future.

We don't need exploiters or cheaters, they're both expendable, replaceable and contribute nothing what so ever to the community. You can't play with them anyway unless you have 50% weapons, perfect GBR scoring and level 140, because the bulk of them are outright elitist jerks with too much time on their hands. If you feel I'm "making an assumption about cheaters' personality", I'd like to point out that they KNOW they're ruining the game, yet they do it anyway. In fact, they're willing to do "anything" to get ahead in the game, reguardless of whether it screws over every single other player in the game in the process. If cheating is so important to them that they risk being banned, they're obviously jerks, because they act like jerks by cheating in the first place. We can always get new people, I say good riddance.


Don't release a game that can be exploited, if you don't want it to be exploited Well, I guess we shouldn't have any online games then. Come to think about it, a lot of single player games aren't meant to be cheated in, but people do with GameSharks and Action Replays. Let's just get rid of all those video games too. In fact, computer hackers can do all sorts of damage, let's get rid of the internet all together while we're at it. Come on now, that's just silly. Have you ever programmed a game before, especially an online one? I have and frankly, it's no walk in the park. Unless you think you can code a game like PSU that has no bugs or glitches what-so-ever with your 1337 skills, I hardly think you have the right to make a comment like that.

Look, it's simple. If you cheat, you don't deserve to play. If you knowingly exploit, you don't deserve to play. If there's an exploitable bug or glitch, it needs to be fixed and the abusers banned. Anything else is BS.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 01:29 PM
so what your saying is that sega isn't there to police us.... but if we step out of line:


then SEGA can step in and clarify


so. like we have both been saying, we play by our own rules. we can play nicely and sega will stay away.. and toss some scraps to us every 6 months, or we can play our own way, and run the risk of sega coming in and kicking us out (by our way, i mean by each individuals own choice... by kick us out, I mean each one sega wants to kick.)...

I personally don't glitch or cheat, except by looking up strategies on how to run missions or find items, if you want to call that cheating... but I don't think that if someone wants to cheat, he/she is wrong/evil/bad. it's different for me in real life, but in the game, it's all up to the host (sega) as to whats possible, and not possible, thats why it's a game.

at the moment, sega has defined whats possible, and that includes glitches...
as rufuswho stated in this (http://pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2140633#post2140633) thread:


"First off, thanks for sending in your suggestions and feedback - we've
followed the discussion too, but our policy is already in place for
this, and we won't be doing any drastic wipes of all S+10's.

If an account has minute amounts of glitched grinders, we will
sometimes allow them back. This is mostly used only when we can confirm the
glitch was used just to test it, and there are not masses of +10 stacks
sitting in the common box. In these cases we will allow the users to
return under the rule that they dispose of all glitched grinders
immediately once they do. Personally, I meet users on-hand to ensure that this
disposal takes place, and that all grinders are given over.

In the end, I think this issue will slowly fix itself over time - after
the grind boost, I would speculate prices on S+10's will continue to
rise back to normal levels, though it will likely still take months to
do so. The PC/PS2 had similar economic problems (but on the whole, not
just with one item), and after roughly six months or so, things evened
out quite nicely."


sega is going to let the problem fix itself. which means either:

1: they don't care about it

2: they don't think it's big enough of a problem to worry about

3: they don't have the money/time/manpower to fix it

4: they're too busy doing other things

5: it can't be fixed, and their not willing to cut out the overall process which the glitch makes use of: i.e. the grinding system, or the shop system, or the synth system, whichever causes the main problem of glitched grinders. or s+10 grinders all together.


:-?


so what can we do? we can't pull a witch hunt, and we can't be content playing our own way...

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 01:37 PM
from Perfect Chaos Zero

Frankly, if you cheat, you deserve to be banned. You ARE hurting the community because you are completely and utterly ruining the game by destroying the economy. There is no "playing by your own rules", there is however "robbing everyone else's gaming experience to make yourself feel big" though.

first off, let me say congrats on first post, thats a nice post to call your first.

anyhow, I guess you only play the game for the sheer joy of having better stuff than anyone else, seeing as how to you, the act of playing the game is pointless, the only important part is the game economy.

there's no fun in playing through the levels? theres no fun in meeting people or finding your first rare? there's only the exchange of money? wow, I would hate to play the game from your standpoint.

also, ruining everyone else's gaming experience, I don't know how you could ruin another's gaming experience if you do not run with them in every mission. people can still work hard on their own, people can still feel good about finding good stuff. if you are upset about the fact that you searched for something for hours and hours, and someone else just spend 100k for one, then I don't know, perhaps you need to find another game... because thats what happens to games with communities, they find loopholes, they find their own version of commerce.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 12, 2008, 01:44 PM
Wasn't the grinder glitch fixed anyway? That kind of renders Xikron's post pointless...

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 01:50 PM
Well, I guess we shouldn't have any online games then. In fact, computer hackers can do all sorts of damage, let's get rid of the internet all together. Come on now, that's just silly.


Whats silly is what you chose for your response. People who choose to play (myself NOT included) the game a certain way and take advantage of an exploit should not be punished because the exploit exists and banned for life. Sega allowed the exploit to exist in the first place and it should be fixed without punishment to the inidividual. Throwing up a ToS and then expecting everyone to abide by it is just about as silly as banning paying customers who are supporting there very own income.

DeZZ
Sep 12, 2008, 01:53 PM
I agree with you that we play this game based on our own strategy. However, I do not think that abusing glitches can be considered strategy. SEGA provides us with a game which gives us many 'freedoms' within it to do as we please, as long as we follow certain guidelines. The freedom in this game is how we play or 'win' within the limits of SEGA's regulations.

From what I read from SEGA's response, it's a legitimate position. The fact that they even responded, shows they care, atleast a little bit. They are taking this issue with some seriousness because they are disposing of items as well as punishing certain accounts based on the severity of the offense. I do agree with you that if they could fix the glitch it would solve the problem, but until they can, they have to find some way to put a 'band-aid' on this issue. I believe they will fix the glitch. From my understanding, by saying, 'it will slowly fix itself,' I think they are strictly talking about price gouging on S+10's, and that the prices will eventually fix themselves.

Elnendil
Sep 12, 2008, 02:08 PM
Whats silly is what you chose for your response. People who choose to play (myself NOT included) the game a certain way and take advantage of an exploit should not be punished because the exploit exists and banned for life. Sega allowed the exploit to exist in the first place and it should be fixed without punishment to the inidividual. Throwing up a ToS and then expecting everyone to abide by it is just about as silly as banning paying customers who are supporting there very own income.

...you have got to be kidding me. You did not just say that. No, I think i'm blind. I should go get this checked out.

Nobody would ever seriously think that.

Perfect Chaos Zero
Sep 12, 2008, 02:14 PM
from Perfect Chaos Zero


first off, let me say congrats on first post, thats a nice post to call your first.



This isn't technically my first post here, I once hung out here for a short while a long time ago, though post count has nothing to do with the validity of ANYONE'S statements, it's a number to measure ego. In other words, it's a moot point.



anyhow, I guess you only play the game for the sheer joy of having better stuff than anyone else, seeing as how to you, the act of playing the game is pointless, the only important part is the game economy.


there's no fun in playing through the levels? theres no fun in meeting people or finding your first rare? there's only the exchange of money? wow, I would hate to play the game from your standpoint.

Actually, that's not true at all. In fact, I have the exact OPPOSITE view of this game. I play this game to have fun, that's it. I don't play to have the best stuff evar or any competition what-so-ever, why do you think I don't care for the elitists? My previous post actually shows quite plainly that not only is your assumption incorrect, it has little evidence to support it.

However, I'd still like to be able to buy some cool looking weapons and gear without having to spend 3 stacks of meseta for it, because the currency has been made utterly useless by cheaters. Some people are even using s+10s as currency now and you're trying to tell me that's not a problem? Finding rares? What's the point of rares if they're not rare anymore, because people have made 90 stack duplicated of every hard to get item in the game, so they just hand'em out like candy in every other mission anyway?

The exchange of money isn't all the game is about, but it's a part of it. A big part of it, as a matter of fact. It's fun to set up a shop and figure out what prices to set, etc. Why should I be DENIED the ability to enjoy that part of the game. For example, let's say that cheating was rampant and SEGA didn't ban anyone or even act against cheating. I wouldn't be able to buy ANYTHING from player shops, because A rank weapons would be going for 40 mill a pop and unless I cheated, I couldn't really play effectively, since I wouldn't have much gear that enables me to fight monsters of my level. Unless I buy non-elementals from the npc shops, which means the element system is being removed for me as well, yet another part of the game ruined. Unless I synth stuff, oh wait, I can't, because any materials of any value costs 3 stacks of meseta cause meseta no longer has any value, so I can synth some useless B ranks and run some B missions at level 80. Hurray for me!



also, ruining everyone else's gaming experience, I don't know how you could ruin another's gaming experience if you do not run with them in every mission. people can still work hard on their own, people can still feel good about finding good stuff. if you are upset about the fact that you searched for something for hours and hours, and someone else just spend 100k for one, then I don't know, perhaps you need to find another game... because thats what happens to games with communities, they find loopholes, they find their own version of commerce.
It DOES effect others, regardless of whether you run missions with them. Your own version of commerce concept is a joke, because it FORCES everyone who doesn't cheat to play THEIR version of commerce. To play by YOUR rules instead of the GAMES rules. It's not about playing your own way, it's forcing your way on everyone else who plays.

It's like a kid crying and whining and demanding his friends change the rules of baseball to 5 strikes instead of 3 so that he isn't out, just cause he sucks at hitting. Never mind the fact that the pitcher's balls are breaking because it's so hard to get to the next inning, little jim bob can finally hit the ball! Never mind the fact that half the kids don't even get around to batting more than once, because each inning takes so damn long that the sun goes down before the 7th out. I wanna play the game the way it's made to be, not some kiddy glove version because some brats can't handle the game the legitimate way.

Like I said, if you cheat, you don't deserve to play. Anything else, is BS.

On a side note:
I hate to be a grammar nazi, but PLEASE capitalize at least SOME of sentences at the beginning; My eyes are bleeding from trying to read some of your paragraphs.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 02:19 PM
here's the deal Perfect Chaos Zero:

about your whole ban everyone who ever cheats/glitches or is a prick.... thats good and all, but it falls under opinion. sometimes I feel like we're cheating by writing a several hundred page dictionary on all things PSO/PSU and how to take the game step by stem untill it's more of a process than a game. anyone who levels skills/bullets whatever afk is going through the routine... how is that not cheating? their not playing the game..... anyone who looks online to find the perfect combination of items to get a 100% striking PM... how is that not cheating.. perhaps it's not. but perhaps it's also ruining the game for people..... when you get an absolute view, then things get murky..

who do you ban for doing the machine gun glitch? anyone who has ever done it? well, what about people who did actions that looked like they were trying to do the glitch.... what about people who didn't know it was illegal... and people who were in a party with a glitcher and didn't leave or kick the glitcher (because if you hit any of those creatures and got exp, you were benefiting from the glitch..).. who will be left? a tiny group of "nice" players that will hinder sega's ability to update the game, because Sega will have no more income....

that sounds like the way an eletist thinks to me. we're better than the rest because we have a perfect clean record and we are the only ones who deserve to play.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 02:24 PM
add:


The exchange of money isn't all the game is about, but it's a part of it. A big part of it, as a matter of fact. It's fun to set up a shop and figure out what prices to set, etc. Why should I be DENIED the ability to enjoy that part of the game. For example, let's say that cheating was rampant and SEGA didn't ban anyone or even act against cheating. I wouldn't be able to buy ANYTHING from player shops, because A rank weapons would be going for 40 mill a pop and unless I cheated, I couldn't really play effectively, since I wouldn't have much gear that enables me to fight monsters of my level. Unless I buy non-elementals from the npc shops, which means the element system is being removed for me as well, yet another part of the game ruined. Unless I synth stuff, oh wait, I can't, because any materials of any value costs 3 stacks of meseta cause meseta no longer has any value, so I can synth some useless B ranks and run some B missions.

this is a mute point if you actually play the game, because you can fight monsters on your own level without buying anything and by killing them, you find stuff you can use. you only buy stuff to make the fighting easier, and to make your own progress seem better/more elite. I never paid much attention to high elementals, because they cost too much, and because the game is not that hard without elemental weapon boost to make it vital

Cracka_J
Sep 12, 2008, 02:24 PM
Whats silly is what you chose for your response. People who choose to play (myself NOT included) the game a certain way and take advantage of an exploit should not be punished because the exploit exists and banned for life. Sega allowed the exploit to exist in the first place and it should be fixed without punishment to the inidividual. Throwing up a ToS and then expecting everyone to abide by it is just about as silly as banning paying customers who are supporting there very own income.

Man, you can sugarcoat bs anyway you like, but it's still bs.
The ToS is there for a blunt reason. If you choose not to abide by that, you ARE PUTTING YOUR ACCOUNT UP FOR POSSIBLE BAN.

Your reasoning doesn't matter, your justification doesn't matter. Those are the rules. If you break them, be prepared to deal with the results.

Yes, they may be originally responsible for the problem and/or not taking action to prevent it, but that's not the issue. They are making it as clear as possible what the outcome will be if YOU violate the ToS.

If you can't understand that, I really can't think of anything else that will help you. It's not a moral issue, it's not a gray area, it's not a matter of ethics. It's a rule put in place that directly states the results. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 02:30 PM
speaking of which, Perfect Chaos Zero, perhaps you should state that you made a new account, as your profile page says...

Join Date
09-12-2008
Total Posts
2

..

not that there is anything wrong with that.. I had to make a new account, because my old one was linked to an e-mail sever that didn't exist any more, so I made v2 of my old account.

DeZZ
Sep 12, 2008, 02:34 PM
Thanks Cracka

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 02:37 PM
Yes, they may be originally responsible for the problem and/or not taking action to prevent it, but that's not the issue.


Thats exactly the issue... ;)

Cracka_J
Sep 12, 2008, 02:45 PM
Thats exactly the issue... ;)

No. The door is open, but you choose what to do with it.
It is your choice, your decision to fuck yourself over.

You have nobody to blame but yourself.

beatrixkiddo
Sep 12, 2008, 02:45 PM
No, the issue is taking personal responsibility for following the Terms of Service you AGREED TO when you installed and/or subscribed to the game, as opposed to NOT taking personal responsibility and blaming everything on SEGA.

Perfect Chaos Zero
Sep 12, 2008, 02:47 PM
here's the deal Perfect Chaos Zero:

about your whole ban everyone who ever cheats/glitches or is a prick.... thats good and all, but it falls under opinion. sometimes I feel like we're cheating by writing a several hundred page dictionary on all things PSO/PSU and how to take the game step by stem untill it's more of a process than a game. anyone who levels skills/bullets whatever afk is going through the routine... how is that not cheating? their not playing the game..... anyone who looks online to find the perfect combination of items to get a 100% striking PM... how is that not cheating.. perhaps it's not. but perhaps it's also ruining the game for people..... when you get an absolute view, then things get murky..


You can't really level skills and bullets unless you hit a mob last I heard. If you know of some other means (3rd party application for example), that could very well be cheating. As to "what is cheating" and what isn't? There is no murky line, it's very plain and easy to see. If you can do it without altering the game or it's packets with a third party application (temporarily or other wise) and you can do it without taking knowingly taking advantage of some unintentional and very obvious glitch, then it's probably not cheating. A glitch is a part of the game code that does not function properly. How is that difficult to understand?


who do you ban for doing the machine gun glitch? anyone who has ever done it? well, what about people who did actions that looked like they were trying to do the glitch.... what about people who didn't know it was illegal... and people who were in a party with a glitcher and didn't leave or kick the glitcher (because if you hit any of those creatures and got exp, you were benefiting from the glitch..).. who will be left? a tiny group of "nice" players that will hinder sega's ability to update the game, because Sega will have no more income....


If people cheat knowingly, in a manner that blatantly effects the economy and/or game play, then they should be banned for a period that matches the severity of the crime and the effects of their cheating should be reversed as best as possible. People who hit the mob would be innocent because they didn't use the glitch themselves and whether they knew someone was cheating or not is indeterminable. Who would be left? The vast majority of at least 80% of players who choose not to cheat, that's who. Not only that, but with the cheaters gone, some players will come back and new ones will be acquired.



that sounds like the way an eletist thinks to me. we're better than the rest because we have a perfect clean record and we are the only ones who deserve to play.

By that thinking, if I robbed your house, you're an elitist for thinking I should go to jail for it. But no, I get to play by my own rules, so I get to burn down your house, kill your family and rob super markets, because I should be able to do anything I want. After all, I'm not hurting anyone else except the people I'm hurting, right? So there's no problem.


add:



this is a mute point if you actually play the game, because you can fight monsters on your own level without buying anything and by killing them, you find stuff you can use. you only buy stuff to make the fighting easier, and to make your own progress seem better/more elite. I never paid much attention to high elementals, because they cost too much, and because the game is not that hard without elemental weapon boost to make it vital



Right, because that's totally a justification to not care about an entire game mechanic. Personally, I find it rather fun to change my weapon ele according to the monster I'm fighting, forcing me to use a weapon I might not be using all that much otherwise. Also, just edit your post man, you didn't need to double post like that and spam up the forums with post dividers. =(

Also, leveling up and improving your character is fun. Being able to fight monsters of a decent level, with "better gear" make that happen a lot more often. Getting new weapons and gear is also fun. Why should I have the entire economy mechanic taken away from me so that I have to find or synth every other piece of gear? Yeah, that's totally fair, totally.

"You can do without it, it's not that important to the game or necessary" does not excuse ruining part of the game. Anything else, is bullshit.


Oh and for the record, I hardly care about what my join date says or what my post count is, those things don't matter to me. I'll let the intellectual value of my written word speak for itself, I don't need a post count to validate it. Take my words, my thoughts and my feelings as you will, negatively or positively, the number of times I've decided to post shouldn't have anything to do with that.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 02:48 PM
there's more than one issue.....

DeZZ
Sep 12, 2008, 02:51 PM
Xikron, the issue here is gamers who choose to abuse a glitch for personal gain, instead of reporting it. Why do you think it's acceptable for people to abuse them? SEGA didn't intentionally produce glitches, but they are part of the game. All we can do is report them.

Also, this is from phantasystaruniverse.com/support_rules.php

Prohibited Behaviors

In addition to what is mentioned in the Phantasy Star Universe User Agreement, the below behaviors and actions are prohibited. If you are found doing any of the following, the Phantasy Star Universe management group may take action to have you banned from the game. Also, in addition to what is mentioned here, please do not behave in any other ways which may disrupt the game for other players.


Harassment
Disregarding public order and decency in chat
Stalking (individuals and groups)
Cheating
Hacking
Making unauthorized changes or deletions to game data or the game program
Using unauthorized game programs or game data
Fighting or inciting fighting between players
Trolling, or baiting others to troll
Taking credit for the actions of, or damaging the reputations of other players or third parties
Divulging personal information of others
Posing as another player or as a member of the game staff
Criminal behavior, or behavior which risks any criminal consequences
Going against any set rules or regulations

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 02:59 PM
No. The door is open, but you choose what to do with it.
It is your choice, your decision to fuck yourself over.

You have nobody to blame but yourself.

I don't take responsibility for others faults. Don't supply the community with the open door if you don't want people walking in. You make since of it the way you see fit but to me throwing up a section on exploiting in a ToS is an excuse for a mistake.

Perfect Chaos Zero
Sep 12, 2008, 03:09 PM
I don't take responsibility for others faults. Don't supply the community with the open door if you don't want people walking in. You make since of it the way you see fit but to me throwing up a section on exploiting in a ToS is and excuse for a mistake.


xikr0n, have you ever programmed? I don't need you to answer that, I'm already 99% sure that you can't (HTML and qbasic don't count). A programmer wouldn't say something so outrageous, because they'd know better. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make an online game that has absolutely no exploits, ever. Every online game in history, from World of Warcraft to Graal, have had exploits galore. It's not an excuse, it's a preventive measure. They KNOW exploits are going to happen, it's impossible to prevent them 100%. So, in the ToS, they simply state that if you find one, report it instead of using it to cheat in the game. Do you understand? They know it's a mistake, we all do, but the fact is, it's guaranteed to happen. The ToS is a measure to minimize damage from it.

"Don't supply the community with the open door", means don't have a game period. There is no sense in that, your logic has no foundation what so ever. The only "excuse" I see here, is YOUR statements. An excuse to cheat and play unfairly without consequences. I don't mean any offense buddy, but your entire reasoning supporting the use of exploits, is downright illogical. The "HAHA you made a tiny mistake, so it's your fault I made 50 stacks of S+10 grinders and you shouldn't be able to undo the results of your mistake, just apologize and make it so I can't make even more stacks" concept, is bullshit.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 03:20 PM
xikr0n, have you ever programmed? I don't need you to answer that, I'm already 99% you can't (HTML and qbasic don't count). A programmer wouldn't say something so outrageous, because they'd know better. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make an online game that has absolutely no exploits, ever. Every online game in history, from World of Warcraft to Graal, have had exploits galore. It's not an excuse, it's a preventive measure. They KNOW exploits are going to happen, it's impossible to prevent them 100%. So, in the ToS, they simply state that if you find one, report it instead of using it to cheat in the game.

"Don't supply the community with the open door", means don't have a game period. There is no sense in that, your logic has no foundation what so ever. The only "excuse" I see here is YOUR statements. An excuse to cheat and play unfairly without consequences. I don't mean any offense buddy, but your entire reasoning supporting the use of exploits, is illogical and outright wrong.

The point of my entire rant has nothing to do with gaining the option of cheating without consequences. If that's what you have picked up from this then I am sorry your not receiving the message.

Oh and by the way I do program in both qbasic and C# and if you ever tell a qbasic programmer that q basic is not a programming language then you better expect a nasty response.

Cracka_J
Sep 12, 2008, 03:26 PM
A programmer wouldn't say something so outrageous, because they'd know better. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make an online game that has absolutely no exploits, ever. Every online game in history, from World of Warcraft to Graal, have had exploits galore. It's not an excuse, it's a preventive measure. They KNOW exploits are going to happen, it's impossible to prevent them 100%. So, in the ToS, they simply state that if you find one, report it instead of using it to cheat in the game. Do you understand? They know it's a mistake, we all do, but the fact is, it's guaranteed to happen. The ToS is a measure to minimize damage from it.

"Don't supply the community with the open door", means don't have a game period. There is no sense in that, your logic has no foundation what so ever. The only "excuse" I see here, is YOUR statements. An excuse to cheat and play unfairly without consequences.

QFFT.

I've worked in the industry man. As hard as it is to believe, games are actually made by people. Unless we get games programmed by jesus himself, the "perfect game" code will never exist.

That's why you do your part to help them out, and report shit that isn't right. That's the reason why this thread is here in the first place. That's the reason why the ToS exists. You don't have to like it, and you can cry about it all you like, but in the end, you have to abide by it.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 03:28 PM
QFFT.

You don't have to like it, and you can cry about it all you like, but in the end, you have to abide by it.

Thats what offline is for...

LuigiMario
Sep 12, 2008, 03:45 PM
You'll also save my wallet from being weightless if the price for these dont go down.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 03:50 PM
You'll also save my wallet from being weightless if the price for these dont go down.

If i was an actual exploiter I would understand why.

thematesV2
Sep 12, 2008, 04:00 PM
i wonder what we would all say if the walls of this forum came down and we could all see each other fair and square, outright as who we are, where we work, and how we act (outside of forums.)

I'm not taking the side of the glitchers/hackers. I'm agreeing with anyone who says that to take measures into your own hands by hacking/glitching/cheating warrants a ban. I'm also saying though, that the game is left open to be a community, and the problem with communities is that you get all types of people. You get crackheads, lazys, loners, over-achievers and people who whine and complain.

Even in a close knit community you get people who stray from the norm.. To have a group with only those types of people which you like to hang out with wouldn't a community, it would be a clan or a club which would in a sense be arrogant. Not unbearably arrogant, but still...

rogue_robot
Sep 12, 2008, 04:59 PM
For anyone who thinks they can rationalize exploiting bugs simply because the bugs exist (especially for you, xikr0n, since you claim to know so much about programming):

http://pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149822

The passage in the terms of service is not a "get-out-of-jail-free" clause or an "oh, excuse me" on the part of the programmers. It is a preventative measure - the easiest way to clean up after a cheater is simply to remove the cheater. It's not as if they lose any noticeable amount of money that way. Throwing out one customer is no loss for SEGA when that customer's presence is causing dozens more to walk out.

None but the simplest programs are ever, or will ever, be bug-free. It is physically impossible to test all things in a game or most any other program, simply because of the sheer amount of data input you would be dealing with (which, if timing has an effect on the inputs as is the case in many games, can cause the number of possible input values to quickly approach infinity).

The best any group of programmers, no matter how large or small, can do, is to make sure that people operating the program the way it is intended to be used don't encounter any problems, attempt to break the program at a few obvious points (as in, obvious to the programmers, not to users aware of already-discovered glitches), run it by a professional debugging staff for some additional testing, and hope for the end user will provide feedback should anything actually end up going wrong nonetheless (which, in any major project, something inevitably will).



themates: Were everyone able to see and interact with one another so easily and directly, there would likely be far fewer cheaters. They'd be too afraid of getting the snot beat out of them. However, audience + anonymity...

I agree with you in one respect, though. Cheating (including glitching) is a personal choice. As you basically said, with all personal choices, though, come consequences - if the cheaters get caught - or someone reports them because their actions are affecting more than just themselves - the cheaters just have to accept the fate they constructed for themselves.

RufuSwho
Sep 12, 2008, 05:05 PM
this

150646

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 05:23 PM
For anyone who thinks they can rationalize exploiting bugs simply because the bugs exist (especially for you, xikr0n, since you claim to know so much about programming):

http://pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149822

The passage in the terms of service is not a "get-out-of-jail-free" clause or an "oh, excuse me" on the part of the programmers. It is a preventative measure - the easiest way to clean up after a cheater is simply to remove the cheater. It's not as if they lose any noticeable amount of money that way. Throwing out one customer is no loss for SEGA when that customer's presence is causing dozens more to walk out.

None but the simplest programs are ever, or will ever, be bug-free. It is physically impossible to test all things in a game or most any other program, simply because of the sheer amount of data input you would be dealing with (which, if timing has an effect on the inputs as is the case in many games, can cause the number of possible input values to quickly approach infinity).

The best any group of programmers, no matter how large or small, can do, is to make sure that people operating the program the way it is intended to be used don't encounter any problems, attempt to break the program at a few obvious points (as in, obvious to the programmers, not to users aware of already-discovered glitches), run it by a professional debugging staff for some additional testing, and hope for the end user will provide feedback should anything actually end up going wrong nonetheless (which, in any major project, something inevitably will).



themates: Were everyone able to see and interact with one another so easily and directly, there would likely be far fewer cheaters. They'd be too afraid of getting the snot beat out of them. However, audience + anonymity...

I agree with you in one respect, though. Cheating (including glitching) is a personal choice. As you basically said, with all personal choices, though, come consequences - if the cheaters get caught - or someone reports them because their actions are affecting more than just themselves - the cheaters just have to accept the fate they constructed for themselves.

Of for god sakes I am so tired of discussing this. I never claimed to "know so much about programming". I was asked if I had ever programmed and explained that I have that's it. I am fully aware that software of any kind can never be released perfectly but that is still no excuse to ban people for Segas own programming mistakes even if the mistakes could not of been prevented. Companies should step in and applogize and say "Hey we are working on a fix please bare with us" and leave it at that. Most problems and glitches are fixed over time or shortly after the initial release of said online game anyways so even if the product was not released "perfectly" the problems are fixed. I can not count how many situations I have either witnessed or read about individuals who have been apart of glitches in online games and were taking part in them with out even having knowledge of it. Come to find out there account has been banned FOREVER for unwillingly knowing that they were even exploiting the game!

Is that an example of taking personal responsibility for choosing to participate in glitches or not? I think people should take more time to examine the issues before they just jump into defending any company for punishing you for there mistakes even if it takes time to fix them. Now if you were to take it upon yourself to understand what is grounds for a ban instead of Sega peaking at a log report and determining a ban without knowing the situation then I don't know what to tell you. Anyone throwing a EULA etc. in my face is not gonna change my opinion though I can tell you that right now.

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 06:43 PM
Of for god sakes I am so tired of discussing this.
Then why don't you shut the fuck up for once?

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 06:46 PM
Then why don't you shut the fuck up for once?

Maturity at it's best... *gives you a hug*

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 06:49 PM
Maturity at it's best... *gives you a hug*
Says someone trying to justify cheating, and serious about it.

Wow, what a fucking dumbass. Lol.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 06:53 PM
Says someone trying to justify cheating, and serious about it.

Wow, what a fucking dumbass. Lol.

Obviously you don't see that I never justified it. I simply was discussing the consequences that come with participating in the act. So I am forced to redirect your insult and display of maturity once again.

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 06:55 PM
Obviously you don't see that I never justified it. I simply was discussing the consequences that come with participating in the act. So I am forced to redirect your insult and display of maturity once again.

in other words, hay guys u can't just make a tos and expect people to follow it olololol,

Not so tired of discussing this anymore, now are you?

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 06:57 PM
in other words, hay guys u can't just make a tos and expect people to follow it olololol,

Not so tired of discussing this anymore, now are you?

If I could read what you have written I would be happy to. ;)

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 06:57 PM
Whats silly is what you chose for your response. People who choose to play (myself NOT included) the game a certain way and take advantage of an exploit should not be punished because the exploit exists and banned for life. Sega allowed the exploit to exist in the first place and it should be fixed without punishment to the inidividual. Throwing up a ToS and then expecting everyone to abide by it is just about as silly as banning paying customers who are supporting there very own income.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 07:00 PM
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool Since obviously you somehow believe that is justifying cheating you clearly have no grasp on what I was explaining.

Nidoqueen
Sep 12, 2008, 07:04 PM
Sega does not care about (you) the individual. (much). It is a company.
Hence why they ban anyone they feel is justified to be banned.
If you find your case to be unjustifiable unbearingly unfair, consider sending in a support ticket.

Talking about it here will not do much good.

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 07:04 PM
So called "maturity" doesn't work anyway, as seen by many well thought-out responses that somehow doesn't sink in.

How hard it is to understand "you don't follow the rules, you get banned."?

This isn't a huge complicated issue. Your opinion isn't worth a shit. My opinion isn't worth a shit. Nobody's is, aside from whoever runs the game.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 07:05 PM
So called "maturity" doesn't work anyway, as seen by many well thought-out responses that somehow doesn't sink in.

How hard it is to understand "you don't follow the rules, you get banned."?

This isn't a huge complicated issue. Your opinion isn't worth a shit. My opinion isn't worth a shit. Nobody's is, aside from whoever runs the game.

I disagree. And, if your opinion isn't worth expressing the why are you here?

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 07:06 PM
Since obviously you somehow believe that is justifying cheating you clearly have no grasp on what I was explaining.

itt sugar-coating. I know damn well what you're implying.

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 07:08 PM
itt sugar-coating. I know damn well what you're implying.

I will agree to disagree. It's been fun Zael enjoy your ranting and raving. *Waves bye*

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 07:08 PM
I disagree. And, if your opinion isn't worth expressing the why are you here?
To call you out on being an idiot? Especially for disagreeing, and failing to understand that's concerning my opinion on banning glitchers. Have fun believing SEGA cares about your opinion on banning glitchers. You're SURE making a difference, lol.

Deissa
Sep 12, 2008, 07:09 PM
I will agree to disagree. It's been fun Zael enjoy your ranting and raving. *Waves bye*

*awaits return*

xikr0n
Sep 12, 2008, 07:10 PM
To call you out on being an idiot? Especially for disagreeing, and failing to understand that's concerning my opinion on banning glitchers. Have fun believing SEGA cares about your opinion on banning glitchers. You're SURE making a difference, lol.

Thanks there Zael. Probably the first kind words to leave your mouth.

Deissa
Sep 12, 2008, 07:11 PM
called it

Zael
Sep 12, 2008, 07:11 PM
Thanks there Zael. Probably the first kind words to leave your mouth.

You're welcome. Shame you can't do the same seeing how yours is full of shit.

Ryna
Sep 12, 2008, 07:18 PM
Since this has degenerated into petty name-calling and flaming, I'm locking this topic.