I hate all men, therefore I am a feminist. ...NO.

[Tessu]

Hold on a second there.
That's like saying I eat oranges, so therefore I like apples.

Feminism and sexism are two different terms. They are not interchangeable. I hear this from people all the time, about how they grew up in a feminist household and think all men are dumb.

The concept of feminism is about equality.
The concept of sexism is about one gender being better than the other.

Feminists want equal rights in economic and social situations. Hating all men has nothing to do with feminism.

Could you be both? I'd say not. If you think males are dumb, you wouldn't want to be equal with them, you'd want to be above them. (Assuming you don't already think you are.)

People saying idiotic things like that has twisted the meaning of feminism to the point where people groan upon hearing the word. Going into a feminist rant does NOT include the story about how your grandmother was raped and raised the rest of your family to dislike men. Going into a feminist rant might, say, be a story about how your grandmother was working harder than your grandfather in the same job and making half the money, or how she was not made the same accommodations while in the hospital.

WHAT THIS RANT IS ABOUT: People misusing the term "feminism".
WHAT THIS RANT IS NOT ABOUT: Feminists in general.

[Aisha379]

The concept of feminism is about equality.
The concept of sexism is about one gender being better than the other.

Feminists want equal rights in economic and social situations. Hating all men has nothing to do with feminism.

Could you be both? I'd say not. If you think males are dumb, you wouldn't want to be equal with them, you'd want to be above them. (Assuming you don't already think you are.)

This sounds pretty logical to me.


I tend to ignore people who throw around the term though. So I really don't have any similar input without breaking this :


WHAT THIS RANT IS NOT about: Feminists in general.

(even if it will probably come to that anyway)


You are correct though. Someone of one gender hating everyone of another gender is foolish, and their actions are more likely to be in the field of wanting to "conquer" instead of causing equality, so that doesn't mean much for the word feminist

[Kylie]

I still get my view on this from Family Guy. :wacko: Femenism is about choice and being able to choose how you are, and all the people that say you must be pro-choice and hate men are just as sexist as the shovanistic men that they claim to be against.

[CelestialBlade]

Sexism is pretty stupid from either party. Someone who really wants sexual equality won't make distinctions between the two in the first place. I have a lot of trouble agreeing with some feminist policies I've heard over the years....most of them are fine, but like, the people who think it's a huge big deal that we could've had a female president....isn't that just furthering the whole thing? If we were a truly equal society, nobody would care if a president was anything but a white male. A sign of progress, yes, but I don't see it as a radical act.

There's some feminists that blur the line between sexual equality and female domination.

[Anduril]

It's good that there are still people out there who really know the difference between feminism and "sexist females." I'm all for feminism in its theoretical form, but I know in practice there can never be true equality even between individuals in society. One example is maternity leave: In the spirit of true feminism there are really only two options, either abolish maternity leave or offer men paternity leave as well. I'm sure there are some places that have done one or the other, but I really just don't seeing that idea catching on in the big picture. (Mind you I would love to have paternity leave when I have kids, but I probably won't get it)

EDIT: I think I may have gone off-topic. But you know how one though leads to another so quickly and you lose your original point.

[biggabertha]

I grew up thinking that guys are inferior to girls...

What does that make me then? Sexist? I like girls though, I like them a HELL of a lot more than guys at least but guys in my life always seem to treat girls really badly - or what I think is badly treated anyway.

I like Kylie's response though - taken from Family Guy! n.n!!!


On a more serious and relevant note though, Paternity leave like Anduril has talked about sounds really good. The topic raised also brings up a few things to mind as well, like how there's a bus JUST for girls after 7pm at my University to protect them or how there are more girl's toilets in my University than there are for guys or how clothes for guys just don't seem to be as diverse as they are for girls. (Petty things, I know but still...)

[MetaZedlen]

Hmm, looks like I get to throw in my 2 cents about this...

Anyway, The whole sexism shit is pretty stupid if you ask me, everybody has their strong points in life, but that doesn't give one SINGLE person in this world a right to think that they are superior to the opposite sex about it, but people nowadays are so thick-skulled about it that they just don't care, but then later on wonder why they are getting chewed out for something that they said...

I'll wait for more posts from others to see if I can branch off anymore ideas.

EDIT: Tessu, you really don't hate all men, do you?

[Tessu]

EDIT: Tessu, you really don't hate all men, do you?

No, the only thing I hate ALL of are spiders. I have no idea where you got that idea, but...

Anyway yeah agree with other peoples' views etc

[Aisha379]

The title was meant to be a general opinion she was commenting on, not her view specifically.


I have to agree with Sexism though. And there is one huge thing that bugs me that a lot of females do:

"Oooo you got beaten by a GIRL!"

I hate it when people do that. I mean, if you're wanting to be treated as an equal and respected, why are you gloating in a way thats both putting me down AND making yourself seem inferior at the same time?

Not like I hear this too often or anything (to me), but it bugs me. Now I honestly don't care if a girl is better than me at something, just don't be a bitch about it k.

[Sidney]

Women get maternity leave because of the fact they actually need to physically recover from childbirth. Childbirth is very rigorous, painful, body-altering and life-changing act (to say the least) and takes a long time to recover; even moreso if the woman had a C-section. Men should not get paternity leave. Yes, it's not fair, but it will never be fair in this instance because of the vast physical differences of each gender's roles in childbirth. I do believe exceptions should be made if the man is a single father (say, the mother dies during childbirth), but other than that, maternity leave is fair as it is. Men don't need to recover from hours of saying "Push!" :p Women also need time off so that they can breast-feed their child, if they choose... which is another thing a man simply cannot do.

That's my two cents on that. Some things will never be equal thanks to physical differences, and I do believe accommodations should be made. It's not sexist, it's just that a woman has to push a baby out through her vagina and a man doesn't have to. :p That in itself is unfair, haha!

[Anduril]

Women get maternity leave because of the fact they actually need to physically recover from childbirth. Childbirth is very rigorous, painful, body-altering and life-changing act (to say the least) and takes a long time to recover; even moreso if the woman had a C-section. Men should not get paternity leave. Yes, it's not fair, but it will never be fair in this instance because of the vast physical differences of each gender's roles in childbirth. I do believe exceptions should be made if the man is a single father (say, the mother dies during childbirth), but other than that, maternity leave is fair as it is. Men don't need to recover from hours of saying "Push!" :p Women also need time off so that they can breast-feed their child, if they choose... which is another thing a man simply cannot do.

That's my two cents on that. Some things will never be equal thanks to physical differences, and I do believe accommodations should be made. It's not sexist, it's just that a woman has to push a baby out through her vagina and a man doesn't have to. :p That in itself is unfair, haha!
I am aware of that and completely agree with you, it was merely an example of why I believe there can never be true equality in a society.

On top of that is it really so wrong of me to want to spend a few full days with my child after he/she is born? Something else, technically a man can breast-feed a child since the mammary gland is a sex neutral organ and a man can lactate if given the proper hormones, but that's just splitting hairs.

[Sidney]

I agree with that completely! :) There truly cannot be "true equality". That's kind of why I'm iffy about "feminism". I think it's a good idea to achieve equality in terms of job opportunities and pay for example, but some feminists need to realize that not everything can be equal. A man will never have to be inconvenienced by a period, for example, but there's nothing we can do to change that!

I don't even like to associate myself with the term for the exact same reasons Tess listed. (I definitely love men! In my life, I've only been effected by blatant sexism all of three times. Most of the time, the men I meet treat me better simply because I am female. Odd, huh?) There's also feminazis, as I call them, who choose to be cruel to women who are feminine. They attack women who like to cook for their husbands, have kids, long hair, wear makeup, etc. :p They drive me nuts!

EDIT:
To your edit, I say that there's nothing wrong with a man getting a few days off - I think it'd be great for him to bond with his child. But, I do not think the days off should be equal to those a maternity leave has. Because, as I said earlier, a woman needs time to not only bond with her baby but physically recover.

[Xaeris]

You should be careful with that line of reasoning, soubrette. It's quite easily turned around by employers to justify hiring and pay practices that are currently considered unfair. Mandatory accommodations for one sex and not the other like that make men less of a liability; an employer would be running the risk of being down a worker on a mere few weeks' notice at any time in hiring a woman.

[Anduril]

soubrette, I was just typing out my own personal desire to spend time with my child when he/she is born, I was in no way saying that it would be equal to maternity leave. I'm just going to have to save up my vacation hours. :lol: Also commenting on how you mention how most of the men you meet treat you better because you are female, I tend to treat women like that because I was raised in a predominantly female household (in the words of Jeff Foxworthy, I swim in the estrogen ocean) so seeing men treat women otherwise always pisses me off, but I have met women who might fall under the feminazi label that have gone off on me simply because I hold the door open for them, it always throws me off when that happens.

[Sidney]

@Xaeris: Maternity leave is protected by the Family Medical Leave Act, actually. (Under this law, even men can get off in some instances.) There are also the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, which makes it illegal for an employer to fire a woman on basis of her pregnancy.

I also wouldn't call a pregnancy a "few weeks notice". Most women with normal, non-hi-risk pregnancies work while pregnant and only take off after having the baby. Usually by the time someone knows they are pregnant, they have months of time to notify their employer. Plus, I'm sure any employer would look at a obviously pregnant woman and put one and two together that she's going to need time off to have her child.

I also said up in an earlier post that I believe women should fight for equal pay and hiring. That is something I believe should change and needs to be fought for. But I will not change my opinion on maternity leave; pregnancy and childbirth is a special situation that is exclusively female-only and should be accommodated for. I believe women should fight for the right for equal pay and their right to maternity leave and should not settle for less. Is it fair to men? No. But women have to give birth and men don't. While most of the time the law's protection works out in women's favor, I know it will not be fair in all instances. It's not going to be fair for awhile, and I know it's not always fair yet, but change takes time to accomplish and I would like to fight for the most ideal of situations. The problem is not the law, being as good groundwork is already in place, the issue is employers adhering to them.

EDIT: And to Anduril, no worries, I didn't assume that you wanted equal time. :lol: It's all good! I was just presenting my idea on how I feel it should be. I've also heard of some employers letting men off for paternity leave of sorts, I think it's just up to who you work for and whether they are willing or not. Like maternity leave though, it's unpaid. :)

But I'm sorry you've had to experience feminazis as well. They are definitely the WORST type!

[Xaeris]

And you're entitled to fight for the conditions most ideal for you. That's precisely why I'm saying be careful with that reasoning; because under it, employers are also entitled to strive for the conditions most favorable to them. They go to quite a bit of trouble to hire people that will be the most effective in the positions they're filling, evaluating various variables like education, experience, references, drug history, etc. Female exclusive maternity leave makes being female a liability for an employer.

I don't believe the government should deny any company the ability to evaluate any relevant criteria to the position they're hiring for. As such, it's absolutely vital that that government doesn't impose any liability onto an immutable characteristic (i.e, race and gender), especially considering that women may not even want the benefit of that liability (i.e, doesn't want children).

I don't begrudge you for desiring an arrangement that's imbalanced. Nobody really likes fairness more than they do an arrangement greatly tilted in their favor. Well, no one being honest with themselves anyway. However, the thing about fairness is that it's the most stable setup; everyone can take some solace in that no one's getting exactly everything they want.

[Sidney]

That's true, and your point of view is completely valid. The reason why it's so hard is because that from either side of the fence, there are plenty of issues involved no matter which way you approach it. I stick to my side of the fence, problems surround it and all, simply because I'm biased, being a woman and such. :)

[Tessu]

The other big problem I see with people switching the terms around is that it seems a lot of people don't understand that there are STILL a lot of issues as far as gender inequality goes for women. I remember speaking to a guy who kept rambling about how feminism was just like sexism, it was dumb, he thinks there should be meninism, etc. But then I said "Uh, you do know what feminism IS, right?" and I explained it to him, and he said, "That's bull. It's the 21st century, we don't treat women like they have no rights anymore. That was the shit of the Greek age."

FJGJCVJNBGJRHIBVFJRIHMCRGTAFJHG9999999999999999

[CelestialBlade]

At least things have gotten a lot better. We can vote, for one thing. There's still a long way to go with equality in the workplace, but a lot of guys discount what feminism is about because we have made a lot of progress.

[CupOfCoffee]

I'm all for legitimate modern feminism, and end to the concept of gender roles, workplace equality, and all that other good stuff, but I agree that the sweeping generalizers who hate all men or all women need to get a clue.

(Anyone remember that one guy or girl, I can't remember which, from a few months back whose favorite thing was trolling Dead Horse Society with threads about how all men are pigs? I do not miss that person. :lol:)

[Kent]

No, the only thing I hate ALL of are spiders. I have no idea where you got that idea, but...
It probably has something to do with the rant's title starting with "I hate all men."

Additionally, I think probably the biggest problem with feminism and the confusion of what it really means has to do with the fact that the word, itself, distinctly references femininity.

If the term for something features one side and not the other... You can probably see how people will interpret that wrongly on a regular basis. Logically speaking, however, this makes sense - much in lieu of "communism" and "socialism" meaning things that deal, specifically, with emphasizing the community/society, just as "capitalism" emphasizes capital... Feminism must glorify women to a point above others, right?

The fact that the name, itself, is biased is what's wrong with the idea of feminism - not the underlying notions of equality.

[Aisha379]

I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm fairly confident that most cases of women being treated unfairly today is due to an individuals opinion, and not that of the government or a form of business.

Example = Like Chels said, women can vote. Before they could not, this is an issue of sexism that was a law, and thus, needed changing.

Other example = Bob owns his own business, he has hired John and Jane to do the same job, but pays John more than Jane. This is a case of sexism reflected by someones personal opinion (for whatever reason). Should Bob be forced by the law to pay Jane the same amount? Thats arguable (Bob should have the rights to control his own business, after all) but I'm fairly certain that are laws for this already...anyway, this isn't something a feminists movement can really do, because Bob is entitled to his own opinion no matter how unfair it may be. (And certainly being a bitch to Bob and any of his male friends does not help the matter at all.)

Now, as far as I know, there are little to no true cases of the first example left.


Also, I think women who want complete and total equality in all ways with men don't quite understand what that means in some cases. What if the "guys aren't supposed to hit girls" morality code completely disappeared overnight? Sure, some of you ladies would be fine and could protect yourselves, but a lot can't, and it'd be viewed the same way as two guys fighting.

Or harsher sentences for women in the judicial system - you can compare males and females who have done the same sort of crimes and almost always the women get lighter sentences.

Or (and this is my personal favorite in this line of examples) - what if women could be drafted into the army? Sure, brave chicks can join if they want, but what if you hit 18 one day and a sudden war broke out and you were shipped out onto the front lines that very year?



Point = I have no problem fighting for equality as far as rights go, but when you try to go too far you are really risking getting yourself screwed over. You can't get equality for only the good things - it doesn't work that way for anyone.

[Vanzazikon]

Here's another thing to think about: People in my class says its normal for women to serve men everytime when they are cooking. Why? They said and all agreed that women, are inferior to men.

This shows that many men still think that women are to be "slaves" to men because they are physically inferior. Meaning they think it's normal, oblivious to the term of sexist or feminist. The women in the room did not give a strong argument on why men and women should be equal; however, I understood what they said. Still, I could not change the mens mentality of that logic.

[Aisha379]

See, its very hard for me to relate to thinking like this, because in my household, my dad cooks the food most of the time.

He works of course, and my mom usually does the house cleaning (though dad sometimes does the dishes), does all the big food shopping, and teaches my sister (homeschooled).

So I guess you could say my parents more or less got rid of the gender roles to a certain extent, which is somewhat unusual and thus my thinking is somewhat unorthodox (perhaps good in this case).

I unno. Even back in elementary school when the kids were fighting over who's better, boys or girls, I'd always jump in and say that we're all equal and co-dependent on the other sex for a lot in life *shrug*.

This is why elite sexism on either side has never made much sense to me =S

[Kent]

Here's another thing to think about: People in my class says its normal for women to serve men everytime when they are cooking. Why? They said and all agreed that women, are inferior to men.
And thusly, have no business (http://castlevania.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Images/Intros/sotng.png) ever reproducing. I recommend immediate castration, preferrably with something rusty.

[Sinue_v2]

The topic of males and maternity leave reminded me of this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c&feature=related

[Seority]

-this topic already makes my brain hurt-

I'm glad someone already stated that some feminists are too overboard with the "equal rights" bit, but lets take this deeper shall we?
What, law wise, is still UNequal to us women? As of what I know, I'm not aware that anything is. As far as employment, it will always be to the likeing of the employer. Yes they are not allowed to state "We never hired her because she was black/ she was a woman," but they can just say, "She tend to be late a lot and we did not want that," even if her race/gender was the real reason.
Ok, Sou. With the maternity leave. Not only do women take it off for physical and sentimental reasons. Here's a question for you. If you were pregnant, and you had a husband, would you like to have him there at the pregnancy or you be alone while he was at work? I believe married men have the right to be with their wives and care for them during those crutial hours rather then be off at work.

One thing I would like to point out is this new veiw upon feminism. Back when we were not allowed to work for all the jobs men could, we were looked on as the ones to cook and clean while the men brought home the bacon. In turn, we were treated with respect. As in men would hold doors open for us and it was a disgrace to hit a women if you were a man. Things back then might not have been equal to our eyes, but they were balanced. The questioning thing now is that since we can do the same things men can, should we still get that special respect? This is where many feminist start going a little overboard with demands. They believe that things still arn't equal and that we should have the special respect that we did before. But wouldn't that be sexist towards men then?
There were things stated on here that "Most men are stupid". Sexist. In my opinion, I've known of way more females then males that are actually unintelligent, but that's just a matter of opinion. You can go look up statistics on college gradings or IQ numbers, etc. if you want a more "real" answer.

However feminism works today is a mystery, since it's stretched so far to really have a median. So when you call yourself one, make sure to explain exactly what you believe in. Also, just remind yourself of how things really are now and maybe for once look at this through mens eyes. Is this all really fair to them? You are supposed to be equal to them, not special just because of your gender. If you hit a man, it's fair for him to hit you back with no disgrace, and why don't we all just hold doors for everyone else. reguardless of gender?

[Sidney]

Ok, Sou. With the maternity leave. Not only do women take it off for physical and sentimental reasons. Here's a question for you. If you were pregnant, and you had a husband, would you like to have him there at the pregnancy or you be alone while he was at work? I believe married men have the right to be with their wives and care for them during those crutial hours rather then be off at work.

Seo, first of all, you do know maternity leave is for after you've had the baby, right? A woman cannot take maternity leave simply because she is pregnant. (Exceptions being made to high-risk pregnancies, of course.) Most women who have jobs work through their pregnancy. As for myself, if I were to be pregnant, I'd be pregnant for nine whole months. That's a lot of days, and not everyday of pregnancy is a magical day upon which you want your husband to be with you to share in the "joys" of pregnancy. I'm sure our days off would be plenty to enjoy/take care of eachother. Most of the time, pregnancy makes you have to go to the bathroom every 5 minutes, bloated, grumpy, hormonal and nauseous. For me, I'd rather just be alone when feeling like that, but I'm not a needy or sentimental person.

Personally, I'd much rather have my husband around when I need him; which is after the baby is born. But then again, I wouldn't want him (or myself) to take too much time off. As I said earlier, under the FMLA, maternity/paternity leave is unpaid. One of us would have to work to keep finances afloat. There is no way you can afford a newborn child on zero income. It's a reality of life when it comes to having a child that one spouse is going to take after main duties of the child and the other is going to have to work. To make sure each parent gets enough time together and with the child, that is up to the parents to work out their schedules to make it work, whether it be using paid vacation, maternity/paternity leave or changing their current work days.

[Seority]

That's what I ment Sou. Would you like to be alone, or have your husband there with you?My english teacher was able to take materity leave the second he knew his wife was in labor.
That is why you plan when you have a kid. You are really too poor where you have to work everyday you can in order to pay for the kid, that was a wrong move on your part lol.
Maternity leave or not, I would want my husband to be present at the birth and help me through it. I'd like his help for caring for the baby afterwards, duh of course, but I'd enjoy it more if both of us could care for the kid until we could send it to daycare while we work. The only reason there is maternity leave is so that a couple doesn't spend thier vacation days delivering birth.
I believe it's fair for the men to take off maternity leave as well. Even if they arn't the ones cramping a baby out, they should be there for support, which I believe is nessessary.

[Sidney]

There's a phenomenal difference between a man taking a day or two off to see the birth of his child and taking a Paternity Leave. I thought you were referring to him taking off while the woman was pregnant, not currently in labor. I definitely agree the father should be there for the birth! Almost every employer will let the father go to see his wife deliver the child. But that's not a "Paternity Leave", Seo. A Paternity Leave would be 12 (unpaid) weeks off during the year, not a day or two off to see his child delivered. A Maternity Leave is the same thing, and exists to give the mother time to physically recover as well as care for her newborn child.

Here's a good snippet that explains it very well, better than I could!



What is maternity leave?

Maternity leave, now often called parental or family leave, is the time a mother (or father) takes off from work for the birth or adoption of a child. Actual paid "maternity leave" — while the norm in every other developed country — is unusual in the United States, although some enlightened companies do offer new parents paid time off, up to six weeks in some cases.

Most likely, you'll use a combination of short-term disability (STD), sick leave, vacation, personal days, and unpaid family leave during your time away from work.

The picture did improve in 1993 with the passage of the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA), which entitles most workers to up to 12 weeks of job-protected medical leave for birth or adoption. However, the FMLA doesn't cover those who work for smaller companies and guarantees only unpaid leaves.

Which benefits are available to you will depend very much on which state you live in. In 2002, California led the way in enacting paid family leave, and other states such as Massachusetts and New Jersey are considering following suit. And not all states allow women to take short-term disability leave to cover pregnancy, birth, and postpartum recovery.

Your employer may have policies that dictate the order in which you can take different kinds of leave. In any case, you'll want to start looking into your options as early as you can during your pregnancy and make sure you have all your paperwork sorted out before the baby arrives.

And I think you severely underestimate the cost of raising a child. Go look at diaper prices the next time you're at the grocery store. :lol: Or ask any parent...

[biggabertha]

As disgusting as it may be, I really don't like the idea of disposable nappies/diapers.

My friend and his wife used cloth nappies for their son and even though it was smelly or disgusting, it saved them a heck of a lot of money.

I think it's around £5 for about ten or twenty nappies? About $8 or $9 USD then, I think for conversion. So it's effectively spending around the same as casual smokers which is just far too expensive.


I'm not saying that the price of raising a child is fairly small, I know that the clothes I went through were expensive and THAT's something you can't avoid. Shoes too....

Then there's toys...

Whoops... going a little off-topic...

[DreXxiN]

Wow, I was going to post my opinion here, but Aisha and Seo hit it PERFECTLY.

Also wow, yeah that stuff is expensive if you have absolutely NO friends and not a single baby shower..(Still..plan more before you have a baby). I was raised from poverty by TWO families, and I know they struggled, but someone of medium class shouldn't have a problem supporting a baby with a few days off, at least if you SAVED, unless of course you just happened to be surprised 270 DAYS LATER that WOOPS, A BABY IS COMING IN 5 MINUTES.

But anywho, yeah, "Equality" doesn't mean reap the good benefits and ignore the bad. Equal? I don't think most females know what they want (and I'm not saying all of you).

If you want a truly equal world, expect to pay for dinner, to get punched in the face if you hit a man with your purse, (if I hit you in the face with my suitcase, you'd slap me, most likely) and don't forget to put up all my christmas lights and fix the lightbulb upstairs!


Sorry, but any time a race, gender, or social group in general are "underdogs in society", the supporters of that specific social group get WAY out of hand.

inb4flame at this point.

Hense why African Americans can get scholarships for being BLACK...yes, from the color of their skin..DONT JUDGE BY THE COLOR OF THE SKIN/IF YOU HAVE A VAJAYJAY! That's almost disgraceful to do to your fellow social group by assuming they can't do as well as the "Primary race/sex" Isn't it?

I want my god damn Caucasian College Fund

[Sidney]

^ Yeah, because you get a year's worth of baby food, diapers, clothing, toys, accessories and supplies at a Baby Shower and from friends. Get real! :roll: Twelve weeks is not a few days off - it's 1/4 of your annual paycheck. And keep in mind, not only do you have to support your baby, you still have to pay for your own needs, pay house/apartment bills, pay utilities, pay bills, pay college loans. For me, I get the extra added fun of constant medical bills, even with a great insurance plan. Raising a child is expensive, saying otherwise is completely ignoring reality, especially in today's economy.

Oh, and saving? That's nice and ideal, but life doesn't work that way. You can't prepare for everything. Say want to save for baby, but you have a plumbing emergency and it costs you 1,000 dollars. You washing machine breaks, and you have to replace it. You're in a car wreck and your car is totaled. Someone gets ill and you run up a massive medical bill. All of this happened to my family this year, and we are no more unlucky that your average family. Your plan works in a world that's all roses and sunshine, but life does not work that way. Unexpected expenses are around every corner and your friends and parents won't always be there to bail you out. Most people, even in the "middle class", are using every penny they currently have to stay afloat.

I can't force reality into the obstinate, so I'm out of this thread. :p On to happier things!

P.S.: Bertha, that's a great idea! I'm sure it's disgusting and harder work, but I'm sure it's money saving and better for the environment as well. I know my friend who had her 5th child recently used cloth diapers and she said she saved a bundle.

[CelestialBlade]

Back to the topic at hand....I think a lot of what fuels sexism is the exact same stuff that fuels a lot of the lingering racism in this country--the older generations are less adapt to change than 20-year-olds are. Ever notice how you tend to find a hell of a lot more open-minded folk at a public college campus rather than in your typical manual labor job? We've made great leaps and bounds in the fight for equality, but not everyone's adapted to that yet.

If you go ahead and make the full transition, you look at things and realize that, anymore, about the only difference between men's and women's roles in American society is the fact that women can give birth to children. Take away the people who still have lingering sexist attitudes, and you find that we really are at a fairly equal state. A number of generations down the road, and you're going to phase out the people that cling to outdated, subservient sexist attitudes. Same with racism, but that's going to take a few more generations longer. There's nothing we can do but wait Go back a couple decades and you'll realize that this transition has been going on for a while.

Since the only real difference now is that women give birth, does it not make sense that women get maternity leave and men don't? Arguing against that makes as much sense as saying it's the woman's fault that biology works that way. I'd be alright with men having a week-long "paternity leave" so they can bond with the newborn and help his wife out with raising the baby (which is a full time fucking job, I might add), but someone's gotta be bringing in the money too. What a lot of women are doing now is working from home after they've given birth, which is an excellent idea. More and more careers are conducive to that sort of thing, so if you want to talk about equality....there's a big step.

And Drex? I was raised out of poverty myself, and my mom couldn't afford me. Mostly because my biological father ran off after he found out she was pregnant, which kinda throws any "plans" out the window. I was fortunate enough to be adopted by close friends of hers. So no, it doesn't always work out. And as Sou said, shit happens. After all the change my life has undergone these past couple of years, I don't even lay out any concrete plans that last more than half a year. Saving up is a nice idea, but it's no guarantee. Some also consider "planning more" to be "safe sex," which clearly doesn't always work out, so that would be a good example of "oops we didn't plan this." Not saying don't save up and don't take measures against such things, but, putting 100% reliance on that is a terrible idea.

[DreXxiN]

^ Never in my post did I refer to the maternity leave...AT ALL. That was your assumption that I was staying on topic xD. Haha. I was simply just stating taking a bit of time off, if you read more carefully and didn't rage, since I meant no hostility nor harm, was a good idea and wouldn't screw up your budget.

Oh, and if living in a povertized mexican family is all roses and sunshine, well that's a strange view of an ideal life lol.


If you are middle class and are using every penny to stay afloat, you aren't spending it properly, because my household is not in debt and we get barely any income, lol. I have friends in college who have to pay for apartments alone off minimum wage jobs, can go to parties, STILL have money to pay for online subs and have over 100 left over at the end.....


..That's if you're into the whole "RAMEN ONRY" lifestyle though =).

Anyway, the Baby Shower's is not a means of "1 YEAR FREE PASS OF HAVING A BABY FUCK YEAH!". I have no idea where you formulated that I was insisting that :P. It's just simply a kick start that if powerful enough can help you a lot with the additon of savings to raising a child.

If you are smart, you can definitely just throw 100-200 dollars of every paycheck you've had since your first job into savings, and trust me, it won't PAY FOR EVERYTHING, as I HAVEN'T implied, but with your current wages received from your current paychecks, you can support a baby off of AT LEAST a decent job.

I should know being an unexpected accident born into poverty that lived through parents not having ANY preparation for it. Should equal out to how bad the economy is now, or at least close. In fact the only EXPECTED KID from my mom's side was isolated from the father at birth.

Anywho, Raising a baby is expensive, but I think you are SEVERLY OVERESTIMATING the cost of raising a baby.

EDIT @ Chel: WOW. When did I put 100% Reliance on my strategy? CAN SOMEONE HIGHLIGHT THIS..AM I REALLY TIRED OR SOMETHING..WOW asdjakfsf. *Leaves for a bit*

But yeah, you rose out of poverty, and now have enough money from your parents to let you live at an apartment for months and months without a job, were you just under average or actually in POVERTY? lol. You must have had an extremely lucky financial uprising in your life. (No offense meant by this question/statement)

And didn't you say your parents were gamers? Lol we couldn't afford that stuff at childhood ;O

[TheOneHero]

Not everyone has a decent job or there are other situations requiring a fair amount of money.

Oh yeah, guys, gals, and tossers alike, you're going way off topic. Knock it off.

[Lyrix]

If you don't have a good job why the fuck would you be knocking gals up/Getting knocked up unless

A.) You really don't mind your baby suffering

B.) There's a REALLY RELIABLE person you know that will adopt them instantly (Eh still...)

Also, I stayed on topic, I just added a little two cents of my own, I just felt the right to defend myself from the previous accusations.

Oh, and inb4 "wellaccidentshappensoliekitsnoturfaultsumtimesifud onthavegoodjob"

No. Wear protection/be extremely precautious, or don't have sex at all if you don't feel you can support a baby.

Are you basically trying to say that poor people that are in love and want a family shouldn't have babies? because thats DEFINITELY how it sounds.

And protection/safe sex doesn't always work, and expecting a normal married couple to not have sex is ridiculous.

On topic, I really don't see how holding doors for women, not hitting them, paying for meals on a date, etc., so called "special treatment" really effects equality.

It has nothing to do with equality in things that MATTER. If things like that are such a huge issue to some people, they just need to be smacked. It takes NO effort to hold a door open for a woman, so why the hell should it matter for sexual equality?

Equality in the work place, and other things of that vein, are important for equality, but dumb shit like holding doors and treating women kindly is just splitting hairs >.>

Just my little thought.

[DreXxiN]

I agree, and my apologies for making those sound as matter-of-factly as they are, I was merely using them as overexxagerated examples (Perhaps a bit too much so >_>)

I just am really annoyed, like other posters here, about feminist (and nationalists/racists [in a supportive way] Want "Equality" but seem to really be striving for special treatment]

It's all good and Dandy to raise a baby in poverty, but you shouldn't MAKE one if you know you are currently in a financial downfall, unless of course your are THAT selfish to put a child through that just because you want them. (This can be somewhat related to not giving a child up for adoption to a much more caring family that is prepared to handle a baby and raise it better than yourself just because YOU want it. I understand the emotional connection, but if you REALLY love something, you should do what's best, not what you want)

Also, no sex in marriage is NOT rediculous. I don't see how practicing abstinence or at least very safe sex (.2% Chance of birth) in marriage is rediculous when it comes to the security/state of being of a new born FORM OF LIFE.

[CelestialBlade]

But yeah, you rose out of poverty, and now have enough money from your parents to let you live at an apartment for months and months without a job, were you just under average or actually in POVERTY? lol. You must have had an extremely lucky financial uprising in your life. (No offense meant by this question/statement)

And didn't you say your parents were gamers? Lol we couldn't afford that stuff at childhood ;O
Sorry about the misunderstanding here :P I had two sets of parents: biological and adoptive. My biological mom had no way of affording the high costs of raising a baby at 18, when my biological dad ran off, and it was my adoptive parents that took me in and allowed me to live the life I have. My biological mom was then able to get her life back on track, re-married, and is doing quite well now.

So on-topic, my point was that mine was a *very* fortunate situation and it doesn't always work out like that. It's also worth noting that raising a baby now is *much* different than raising a baby 23 years ago. Unemployment is far higher now and inflation has made the cost of raising a baby that much more insane. It plays a pretty big role in the fact that couples are waiting later and later to have children on average, aside from more couples working now.

[DreXxiN]

Sorry about the misunderstanding here :P I had two sets of parents: biological and adoptive. My biological mom had no way of affording the high costs of raising a baby at 18, when my biological dad ran off, and it was my adoptive parents that took me in and allowed me to live the life I have. My biological mom was then able to get her life back on track, re-married, and is doing quite well now.

So on-topic, my point was that mine was a *very* fortunate situation and it doesn't always work out like that. It's also worth noting that raising a baby now is *much* different than raising a baby 23 years ago. Unemployment is far higher now and inflation has made the cost of raising a baby that much more insane. It plays a pretty big role in the fact that couples are waiting later and later to have children on average, aside from more couples working now.


Ahh.. thanks for clearing that up, lol. Yes, I was quite confused. And trust me, I'd definitely wait to have a baby for obvious reasons at this point in my life which you know of >_>. Even when I do find a good job, it's WAAAAY off from now.

And agree to raising babies being much different, even for different reasons than the ones you posted XD. Here it's pretty much unsafe for a child at any age to go to a public park at any time of day. *Le Sigh*

[Seority]

Heh. Look Sou/Chel, if you have enough money where you can survive w/o you or your husband working for weeks, then awesome! More time with your kid, but I highly doubt that every father (and mother for that fact) take those full 12 weeks off for a kid. That is an option. Work places give that many just so that the husband/wife don't ever need to use thier vacation days for things like that.
I think it's perfectly fine if fathers get Paternity leave. Heck, I'd enforce it almost if I was an employer. It's crutial to have help when things like that happen.
Oh, 24/7 parenting isn't only the females job Chel, but both the parents combined.
Yes, all of us and our mothers know you were adopted. Life could of been easier or worse. You could of been aborted, your parents could of kept you. Either way, this has nothing to do with Feminism at all. So honestly, can we please get back on track here?

[Rust]

I have to agree with Sexism though. And there is one huge thing that bugs me that a lot of females do:

"Oooo you got beaten by a GIRL!"

I hate it when people do that. I mean, if you're wanting to be treated as an equal and respected, why are you gloating in a way thats both putting me down AND making yourself seem inferior at the same time?

Not like I hear this too often or anything (to me), but it bugs me. Now I honestly don't care if a girl is better than me at something, just don't be a bitch about it k.


I'm no expert on the matter, but I'm fairly confident that most cases of women being treated unfairly today is due to an individuals opinion, and not that of the government or a form of business.

I pretty much agree with both those statements.

Unfair treatments towards women usually come from individual persons and isn't something made up by a government or a whole company as a rule to follow, unless you begin to step in such 'tightrope' topics as countries with an islamic majority of the population, but I won't step in that since it's slightly off-topic (though I'd say it also has to do with individual interpretation of religious texts).

As for the 'being beaten by a girl' statement, and such stuff, that's quite bugging me too. People doing those kinds of statements usually have that preconceived idea that girl = fragile little thing and man = tall bodybuilded monster. That can very well be the other way round, and even without that, if you take a man and a woman with same physical and mental features, then the one who got the most trained in a special field of competence would be the 'winner'.

Let's get some purposedly farfetched examples :
A female who got trained to close-combat would certainly be a strongest opponent in a fight than your average male thug (please note average).
A female engineer isn't less competent in that domain than a male who undertook the same training course.
A male nurse can take care of your health as much as a female one can do.
A male renowned chief is most likely (I hope so for his business) better at cooking dishes than the regular housewife.


On topic, I really don't see how holding doors for women, not hitting them, paying for meals on a date, etc., so called "special treatment" really effects equality.

It has nothing to do with equality in things that MATTER. If things like that are such a huge issue to some people, they just need to be smacked. It takes NO effort to hold a door open for a woman, so why the hell should it matter for sexual equality?

Equality in the work place, and other things of that vein, are important for equality, but dumb shit like holding doors and treating women kindly is just splitting hairs >.>

Though I agree those things don't have to do with the real matter about equality of genders, I came to a point now where I don't believe this kind of "special treatment" to always be legitimate anymore.

Might sound like a dumbass, but those things are for the most part originated from old chivalry code, which wasn't really about having respecting women, but more about the best way to grab the hold (not sure I used the correct term here :/ ) on them...

But my main reason isn't because of that. Much more about the fact I don't see how a woman would be less able to open a door than a man, and such. I do hold doors, and stuff like that, but that's just about respect. I don't care whether the person I'm holding it for is a guy, a girl, an alien or even a walking screwdriver.

On there, there is a lot of girls and women taking advantage of that 'special treatment'. A mere 'thanks' when someone hold a door for you isn't harder than holding the said door ; lots of girls there are assuming I had to do it for them, so now I barely do it anymore, especially when I see the person behind me is chatting on his/her cell phone (I still do when I see people like a woman carrying her baby in her arms, an old person who has difficulties to move and such, since it's pretty much common sense).
The worse is those who take the 'hitting a girl is a disgrace for your manliness' as an excuse to being bitches and such. First, that's long ago I don't care about my 'manliness' ; and second, I don't have any kind of respect for someone who treats me like dog poo on the sidewalk, regardless of the made-up rules or the gender of the offender.

[DreXxiN]

Rust pretty much completed my views flawlessly.

And @Seo's post yeah, My science teacher in middle school was awesome, but he took a full paternity leave and we had a sub for 12 weeks. Missed the guy, but he still managed to make it fine even though they both had middle school teaching jobs :P (Not the best payment, though benefits can be nice)