PDA

View Full Version : Poll: Acrotecher level *40* techs?



SolomonGrundy
Dec 15, 2008, 11:16 AM
With master classes coming out, and level 50 techs being available, Acro techers go from being the second best techers, to the third best, and that is by a pretty large margin. While tier 5 support techs are "great" it won't do anything but keep up, as fTs will get tier 4 support techs. And since fTs got the HP bump, the only thing that makes Acro techers worth playing, is a little melee...

So how do you feel about giving Acrotechers level 40 techs? fTs will still have the element, and power bonus of rods, plus thier natural pp redcution. And better TP/MST stat should keep them comfortably ahead of the acro.

What say you?

Yes or No?

Zarode
Dec 15, 2008, 11:21 AM
Or, you could switch classes. Acros will and always be, master healers. Besides, lv41 Support is a huge leap in range and power.


edit:

Sure, lv21 attack techs aren't that big (no no, they are quite huge you freaks), but to be honest, lv31 isn't that much bigger (god I can hear my xbox CRYING). Are you having trouble hitting mobs? If you are, I say a change of class is in order. It sounds like you are not enjoying Acrotecher.

Seority
Dec 15, 2008, 11:22 AM
You actually said AT's are NOT the BEST support class?


They should just get their 50 support and be done. They will be VERY useful compaired to a fT in later missions.

Ethateral
Dec 15, 2008, 11:28 AM
No. Acrotecher is the support class. Nuff said.

They should excel in support, not support and Tech attacking. They can already use striking weapons and do nice damage as is. They don't need Lv. 40 Techs. When they get the 41+ supports, it far excels over what they already had at 31. Acrotechers excel in support, while utilizing the ability to Tech and use striking at an increased speed.

Darius_Drake
Dec 15, 2008, 11:58 AM
No, I think it will be balanced as it is.

MF: level 50 attack, level 10 support --> Nuker
FT: level 40 attack, level 40 support --> Balanced
AT: level 30 attack, level 50 support --> Support

If anything I think the Masterforce is the least balanced out of all of them. The only have level 10 support. They might as well not even equip any support spells. FT on the other hand has a perfect balance and AT are great with support. Also don't initially underestimate level 30 attack spells that have level 50 buffs attached to it. Giving AT level 40 attack spells would make FT pretty much obsolete.

JAFO22000
Dec 15, 2008, 12:13 PM
I think Acrotecher should get level 50 techs (ALL thecs, not just healing ones!) PLUS level 50 whip, slicer and rifle.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 12:17 PM
AT will be fine; it's never been a very good type from a strict DPS whore standpoint, and this only helps it.

Dragwind
Dec 15, 2008, 12:20 PM
It's designed to be the best support, and it still gets the best support techs. I'd say it's fine how it is.

Kylie
Dec 15, 2008, 12:23 PM
It's designed to be the best support, and it still gets the best support techs. I'd say it's fine how it is.
I agree. I don't see much to worry about because it's supposed to be the third best attack techer class.

Akaimizu
Dec 15, 2008, 12:49 PM
I was about to say the same thing. Regarding Attack Techs, and the addition of the Master Force.....the Acrotecher was designed to be the 2nd and now 3rd best attack techer. Especially since it can still claim to be number 1 in support. Take note, it's a big thing to be seen as Number 1 in ANY position in this game.

Besides, there's more value of being a top support techer than a top attack techer considering how relatively powerful position 2, 3, and (situationally) 4, and 5 are.

When it comes to supports, there's a lot more bumping of heads. You always have a primary buffer/healer/giresta caster...and whatever party you are in, you're free to take the helm of that responsibility. Basically, only combat/emergency heals are in the *free* category, where it's always good to have backup players to cover healing detail.

When it comes to attack techs, any techer will be free to use them, especially in certain specific situations where all techers (since they have at least level 30 access) will do good to use attack techs at the time. Never forget, that Acrotechers still automatically get a casting speed boost, without a unit and they're (by their melee side) still going to be perhaps the 2nd most robust/tough techer out there. Having top support and very decent survivability is a strong thing.

Cathbar
Dec 15, 2008, 01:04 PM
DISCLAIMER: Not all views expressed in this "Wall'o'text" applies to everyone. These are just the opinions of the poster as they have seen them for themselves. The poster is very much aware that many do not share these points of view or even have these problems to deal with.


If you think about it, yes, 50 buffs + 30 techs IS good. But what happens when everyone else in the group (possibly a MF) gets the buffs too? (I think my TV would melt...)

I'm not saying that as an AT, I'd refuse other's my services, but in effect, we'd just end up as equally weak as if we'd not used the buffs to begin with. Possibly more. (Not to mention we'd fail to get any hits. Even now I have to work really hard to hit a few mobs before they up and vanish)

AT's are the support class, I'm not arguing that, but if that was all we were, what would be the point of giving us ANY attacks to begin with? So we can solo? Sure I guess, but as we've all found out recently, soloing, especially with the mundane task of leveling up as the goal, flat out sucks. Every other class has the ability to attack, kill, and gain EXP in groups with no problems...... Except AT's. We're stuck playing nurse maids to everyone else while they hog all the glory (so to speak). Even when everyone is fully capped out, it's still quite the ordeal to get many points.

Personally, I'd like to see the mobs with some stat increases. (Like defense and life. Better AI would be good too) To me, that'd solve everything, but that one's not going to happen. Not when they already went through to make it easier for everyone.

Now before everyone and their dogs come down on me like a hammer, know that I am an AT. I like being an AT. I like helping people and providing a (not really neccessary) welcome part of the team. What I don't like is everyone's mental attitude that because I use the class that has the highest buff techs, that I'm obligated, nay!, privileged! to heal them and make sure that they can attain the highest "LOZ BIG NUMBRS" and "DAMZAGE" possible.

In a game where you achieve higher levels by killing monster in combat, it's just cruel. For the 1 character class that was designed to be the best "team player" oriented, it seems an awful lot like we're being sent into exile. (By this, I don't mean to say that we're "unwelcome on a team", only that we have to be alone in order to level ourselves)

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 01:07 PM
If you are unable to both provide continuous support and at least tag almost all of the enemies as an AT, then you're doing something wrong.

DreXxiN
Dec 15, 2008, 01:14 PM
If you are unable to both provide continuous support and at least tag almost all of the enemies as an AT, then you're doing something wrong unless you are on a PS2.

Fix'd

Darius_Drake
Dec 15, 2008, 01:15 PM
DISCLAIMER: Not all views expressed in this "Wall'o'text" applies to everyone. These are just the opinions of the poster as they have seen them for themselves. The poster is very much aware that many do not share these points of view or even have these problems to deal with.

In a game where you achieve higher levels by killing monster in combat, it's just cruel. For the 1 character class that was designed to be the best "team player" oriented, it seems an awful lot like we're being sent into exile. (By this, I don't mean to say that we're "unwelcome on a team", only that we have to be alone in order to level ourselves)

Sounds like you run with the wrong groups. I also play AT on one of my characters and I have no problem leveling up when running in a group. I do call for buffs at certain points (like at the beginning of the block) or make sure I tag everything before buffing during a fight. I pretty much accept that I am not going to do the most damage as a techer so buffing other techers doesn't bother me. I am not really playing to get those killer numbers when I am using my AT anyway. One thing that does seem to be a pain when in a group is actually leveling attack spells. That seems to need to be done by soloing. The way of the AT seems to be buff, tag, heal, buff.... rinse and repeat. It is actually nice if you have another techer in the party and that way you can split the duties. You can buff and the other techer can be the main healer. That way you can both get some attacks in consistently without having to rush to tag everything.

Akaimizu
Dec 15, 2008, 01:38 PM
I also play an acrotecher as the 2nd job of my primary character. Thing is, I also play a guntecher in a party as well. In general, if an acrotecher is there, I generally subdue doing buffs when the acrotecher is already covering that. I think it's a little premature to instantly think everybody is going to demand a support tech from you....however, it's not premature when people can mind that you're overwriting acrotecher buffs, or giresta. So, a possible issue works both ways.

However, my thing still stands. If you're asking for a powerup *just because you can get a title of another top placement in something*, then I think the point is really lost here. Many classes can't claim to be top in anything, and in general, if you pick a class with a top-level of something..........a good chance that's one of the reasons you picked the class in the first place. Yes, there's planned versatility, and you're always free to simply ask if some other techer can do something considering they're support techs are decently levelled or ready. Or if a playstyle described for another techer is more your liking, that might really be your calling.

Thing is, they have and will have very high abilities in what their class was designed with the intention of. I mean, not even citing those worse off, a Guntecher will be perhaps 4th or 5th place in both Attack and Support techs. Will be 3rd or 4th place in guns. Still second to bottom in melee, though oddly with the most limited melee choice in total. And do I expect to not kick major butt as one for even the next conceivable 6 months after master-classes come out? Not at all. I spent the time levelling a lot of stuff so that I've future-proofed that usefulness. And guess what, I'm free to level all that stuff. I did when I was primary healer/buffer or not. I always had time to do guns, melee, raise techs, etc. A lot of that is sticking with the right groups. We know we bad. We know as a group we're kicking these missions like there's no tomorrow, even when we aren't all using our best weapons.

However, I also recognize the class was never to be top in anything, from inception. Even though ST might have been a tiny bit misleading as to put them with one of the most *support* heavy descriptions to their class description.

So needless to say, it's more of a you choose what you want to choose. The status of Acrotecher finally gave Fortetechers what they wanted. A more balanced aspect of attack and support techs in which folks won't see them for being more of a field medic, especially since they were kind of described as primary attack-tech folks. Not to mention, the Acrotecher still fits their description, so if you read that and expected something else....I don't know what to say.

Magician
Dec 15, 2008, 01:41 PM
With master classes coming out, and level 50 techs being available, Acro techers go from being the second best techers, to the third best, and that is by a pretty large margin. While tier 5 support techs are "great" it won't do anything but keep up, as fTs will get tier 4 support techs. And since fTs got the HP bump, the only thing that makes Acro techers worth playing, is a little melee...

So how do you feel about giving Acrotechers level 40 techs? fTs will still have the element, and power bonus of rods, plus thier natural pp redcution. And better TP/MST stat should keep them comfortably ahead of the acro.

What say you?

Yes or No?

No inbetween poll option?

Anyway, as I've spent more and more time being an acrotecher I've come to appreciate the fact that the type is a survivor. I've had more fun with the 170hrs as an acrotecher than over 1200hrs as a fortefighter. Why? Variety. Keeping an eye on the group's buff and health status, keeping the group running strong by laying down status effects, traps, and the occasional support damage is far more engaging than tornado dancing to every enemy spawn...laying down majarra or jabroken on anything that moves.

As others have said, the acrotecher is the primary support type, let them do support damage.

If you want to give them level 40 attack techs, you may as well give them level 30 skills and bullets while you're at it.

DreXxiN
Dec 15, 2008, 01:49 PM
So wait, let me clarify this, people actually wanted to pick Acrotecher, and NOT be the support slave? I'm confused.

If you feel so INSIGNIFICANT and underappreciated then PLEASE, there are a PLEFORA of classes to choose from that are hybrid support in which it is not your mandatory #1 objective to be a resta slave.

Pillan
Dec 15, 2008, 01:59 PM
The cost of ultimate melee is sucking at everything else. The cost of ultimate range is sucking at everything else. The cost of ultimate attack techs is sucking at everything else. The cost of ultimate traps is sucking at everything else. Why should the cost of ultimate support be any different?

sephiroth115
Dec 15, 2008, 02:02 PM
Whips = Instafarm... nuff said

DreXxiN
Dec 15, 2008, 02:02 PM
The cost of ultimate melee is sucking at everything else. The cost of ultimate range is sucking at everything else. The cost of ultimate attack techs is sucking at everything else. The cost of ultimate traps is sucking at everything else. Why should the cost of ultimate support be any different?

as I've said, mainly because of people feeling insignificant or under-appreciated.

If this is the case, I get the AT's should start thanking others for CLEARING THE MISSIONS as everyone else thanks the support for SUPPORTING DOING SO. :P

Billy Mitchell
Dec 15, 2008, 02:04 PM
I think Acrotecher should get level 50 techs (ALL thecs, not just healing ones!) PLUS level 50 whip, slicer and rifle.I fail to see how this is a solution to any problem.

If acrotechers had all level 50 techs and whip slicer and rifle at 50, they would be WAY overpowered. It would be totally unfair to the other classes. Why be a masterforce at all? It doesn't make any sense. You wouldn't be a masterforce at all. You'd be super broken super acrotecher.

I understand level 50 whip, though.

Pillan
Dec 15, 2008, 02:11 PM
If this is the case, I get the AT's should start thanking others for CLEARING THE MISSIONS as everyone else thanks the support for SUPPORTING DOING SO. :P

Get some good whips and daggers and Acrotecher can solo just fine. No point in thanking everyone else when you can take out each spawn in SEED Express with a single Vivi Danga. (Also, I generally tell my party to stop saying thanks since, you know, buffing is an obligation of any good techer.)

Spartan Law
Dec 15, 2008, 02:13 PM
Have never teched much before as I <3 bashing stuff too much (I use all melee PA's not just the fashionable ones) but I must say AT techs at 40 would be too much. I am with one of the other posters in this thread, heals are nice but I have tri's and arent afraid to use them! Its your character, you can play how you want!

Also, if anyone thinks that AT's are going to get demoted in the world of Techers due to MF then I feel you are sorely mistaken. With no Tech nerf I know of many people (including myself) who will avoid most MF's like the plague. ESPECIALLY early on when everyone tries to get Dambarta and Nosdiga to 50. On the other hand AT's with 41+ Buffs I and many others will be actively trying to FIND. Especially in smaller parties, sure me and another fighter can duo anything out without a great deal of stress but its so much nicer to have a Techer with you, especially an AT if you can find one (rare lil munchkins you people be!) (Any AT's that want to be part of a 3 person playing squad hit me up lol!)

I do see the point with tagging whilst trying to heal etc.. and finding it hard to garner exp which will hopefully be made easier with 50 support (bigger range) but sadly this will be harder due to Masters.

What I think a fair solution to this would be is a system I have seen implemented in other MMO's with healing classes, that works very well. They got a % of the exp given as a bonus, that the person they healed/revived earned for a period of time. In PSU I think a similar system would be effective.

Something like while you have a buff on another character you get 5% of the exp they earn per buff. (Thats across up to 5 others which would add up to 100% ie the same exp as tagging every monster). Also I think that after healing a character you should get a similar bonus for a limited period of time. Heal someone and you get a small % (maybe based on the % of their HP healed) for 15 seconds or something.

I know that ^^ has flaws and would require coding etc... but in a perfect world of Sega where the kubara knock off got wiped away, such a system would help to balance out helping the support classes. :-)

Akaimizu
Dec 15, 2008, 02:22 PM
Well, technically. One problem is that nobody seems to have any incentive to level Debuffs. Those of us doing so, are mainly doing it for completion sake. However, a fully levelled debuff is a tough tagging ability to beat. Still, with whips/twin-handguns/limited traps, etc. They have little trouble tagging. I did that, as one.

Thing is, ST has a lot of trouble balancing hybrid-classes in, and Acrotechers just happen to be one they don't have as much trouble with. Think of the poor Wartechers. Melee hybrids are one thing ST kind of went crazy making. I mean, how many do you need to have? And how many ways, in this currently limited system, can you really separate them? It's almost as if the selection of one is simply based on a single weapon, or so, that class has exclusively. Even worse, when many of the weapons overlap.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 02:29 PM
Yeah. AT is at least good at what it is meant to do, unlike WT, which I'm not really sure what it is meant to do, since it's at best mediocre at everything.

I've never used debuffs, nor have I ever had any problems tagging.

_Vyser_
Dec 15, 2008, 02:53 PM
I think Acrotecher should get level 50 techs (ALL thecs, not just healing ones!) PLUS level 50 whip, slicer and rifle.

LMAO! This made my day. Thank you.

Africa
Dec 15, 2008, 03:26 PM
AT is fine the way it is / will be.If you think about it all the techer classes are messed up between stats and there tech levels.Of all the tech classes AT is the one that doesn't need to be tweaked.Be happy you will be the only hybrid class with lvl 50 something.

Kinako78
Dec 15, 2008, 03:31 PM
I don't feel AT is overpowered, but I also don't feel they need higher level attack techs. And, FYI, I'm already more then a heal bot, thank you. :p

So add the choice, "Acrotecher is fine as it is." then I'll vote.

Darius_Drake
Dec 15, 2008, 03:47 PM
I don't feel AT is overpowered, but I also don't feel they need higher level attack techs. And, FYI, I'm already more then a heal bot, thank you. :p

So add the choice, "Acrotecher is fine as it is." then I'll vote.

I did vote "No, Acrotecher is already overpowered as it is", but I see your choice as more accurate. If that choice is added I need my vote switched to that one. :D

amtalx
Dec 15, 2008, 03:47 PM
Acrotechers don't get an opinion. Get back to healing, nurse. This Duranga hurts.

Broodstar1337
Dec 15, 2008, 03:49 PM
There's more to support than just buffs and heals.

I use my Rabarta, Razonde, Deva Zashi, and Vish Adan to completely shut down mobs. It's pretty awesome, actually.

Kinako78
Dec 15, 2008, 03:52 PM
I did vote "No, Acrotecher is already overpowered as it is", but I see your choice as more accurate. If that choice is added I need my vote switched to that one. :D

Thank you. :D


Acrotechers don't get an opinion. Get back to healing, nurse. This Duranga hurts.

Then stop using it. :p

ike239
Dec 15, 2008, 03:52 PM
honestly is acrotechers get lvl 40 techs acrotechers will be at>ft at are fine the way they are

Shou
Dec 15, 2008, 03:53 PM
For Acrotechers to be their best, they should buff, heal and anything esle needs to be melee. I like switching to acrotecher from FT (soon to be MF) because it gives me my melee fix while still being able to get use of my support techs. I dont really know why people use attack techs with AT. *shrugs*

amtalx
Dec 15, 2008, 03:58 PM
Then stop using it. :p

I will when Gunmaster hits. :)

Kinako78
Dec 15, 2008, 04:18 PM
For Acrotechers to be their best, they should buff, heal and anything esle needs to be melee. I like switching to acrotecher from FT (soon to be MF) because it gives me my melee fix while still being able to get use of my support techs. I dont really know why people use attack techs with AT. *shrugs*

I can't speak for other ATs, but I use them cause bots and other enemies are still more vulnerable to techs then to melee.


I will when Gunmaster hits. :)

Deal.

Akaimizu
Dec 15, 2008, 04:23 PM
Funny enough. Not many people realize there's monsters that are resistant to bullet and melee, but take a mega punch from Techs. (Or are bullet resistant, and generally knock around anybody trying to approach them with a saber) You'd never guess, but even as a Guntecher, there are situations where a Diga (of their level) actually possesses good power for those situations.

Kinako78
Dec 15, 2008, 04:42 PM
You gotta be kidding. I thought almost everybody knew that.

autumn
Dec 15, 2008, 05:04 PM
I use offensive techs in AT when I'm using AT to level lower level techs :P Only thing its good for, what with the less TP and faster casting (sorry I don't so much dig the support unless I'm with close friends)

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 05:05 PM
What's funny enough is that the melee-resistant enemies still take more damage from bullets than from techs. Oh, and the ones that resist both melee and range, well, they still take more damage from melee than techs (in most cases).

Shinko
Dec 15, 2008, 05:11 PM
No. acro is fine how it is. It's not just for tech anyway like more ppl believe it is. Why do u think they can use gun and swords with skills to 20... S ranks too.

(a human can full use arco better than a newman anyway) desent sword and gun skills, good techs, and the best buffs in the game.... plus there stat are good too.

Giving them anymore anything else for be crazy.

Pillan
Dec 15, 2008, 05:16 PM
What's funny enough is that the melee-resistant enemies still take more damage from bullets than from techs. Oh, and the ones that resist both melee and range, well, they still take more damage from melee than techs (in most cases).

What's even funnier is that most melee resistant enemies have multiple target zones, so you're doing at least as much damage as you would be doing to a non-melee resistant enemy and even more in most cases. And, probably the funniest part is that anything that's both melee and ranged resistant and lacks multiple targets falls easily to instant death, making the TP advantage of any race completely useless there. This uselessness will only increase with the release of Vish Diragac in a month or two.

That being said, the only place where I can see techs having a real advantage on any partial techer class is on Mother Brain's arms.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 15, 2008, 05:29 PM
A few people have suggested that making enemies with more HP, or DFP might make debuffs more useful. I would be REALLY happy with higher DFP. that would make make DoTs useful again, as well as keep the melee types as the top tier damage dealer, since they haev the highest ATP, and ATP weapons.

not sure what to do about the jellen/zodial. most enemies can be hit pretty readily.


For all the people that don't understand why I'd want to give acrotechers 40 techs, imagine if figunners, or acrofighters did 30% less damage than they do now. because that's what it's like being an Acrotecher trying to damage things with techs. I wont even do into a comparison of how they far with melee or ranged.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 05:40 PM
imagine if figunners, or acrofighters did 30% less damage than they do now. because that's what it's like being an Acrotecher trying to damage things with techs.
The logical solution is not to use techs for damage.

amtalx
Dec 15, 2008, 05:41 PM
A few people have suggested that making enemies with more HP, or DFP might make debuffs more useful. I would be REALLY happy with higher DFP. that would make make DoTs useful again, as well as keep the melee types as the top tier damage dealer, since they haev the highest ATP, and ATP weapons.

We just need Lvl 200+ enemies. There used to be a day where you needed to be no less than 5 levels below the cap to run certain missions. Where are the missions requiring Lvl 145? Nowhere.

Pillan
Dec 15, 2008, 05:46 PM
Your problem isn’t that Acrotecher isn’t balanced. Your problem is that there is no option that focuses on tech damage with limited versatility in another area. You’d be better off asking Sonic Team for a Techfighter or Techgunner class than trying to change Acrotecher from what it is, a dual wielder focused on support, to an attack technique-centered hybrid.

If you increase enemy DFP, good Wartechers and Acrotechers will still be fine. You’d just be nerfing every gunner class beyond belief.

Turb0
Dec 15, 2008, 06:39 PM
I don't feel AT is overpowered, but I also don't feel they need higher level attack techs. And, FYI, I'm already more then a heal bot, thank you. :p

So add the choice, "Acrotecher is fine as it is." then I'll vote.

My thoughts exactly. (Except technically since we're discussing friday's update, they're fine as they will be) :ducky:

OldCoot
Dec 15, 2008, 07:25 PM
I think the class will be perfect. Yes, AT seems to lean toward support, but this class will be the master of support. I find it is so much easier to get folks to join a run, playing a AT than as a AF because folks just like to run around shooting and choping stuff up and don't want to be hassled with popping stat boosts or mates.

I like being able to buff and then charge in with dual daggers or hits targets with the whips. If I want to stay back, I just use those pistols getting some kind of status effect going while digas are flyng by.

Maybe to sum up what I have already said, I don't see a point of 40 attack techs for AT. Level 30 techs are good enough. Look at it this way you won't have to level that huge list of attack techs up staying as a AT if you have them at 30 now.

Support
AT>ft>GT>WT>MF. (Fixed. Sorry about that for those playing Wartechers. I just don't see folks playing that class other than to level for MF.)

But, the next time someone wines for buffs, I will Megistar myself and walk away!

Kinako78
Dec 15, 2008, 07:54 PM
My thoughts exactly. (Except technically since we're discussing friday's update, they're fine as they will be) :ducky:

Right. My mistake. That's still what I mean.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 07:58 PM
Support
AT>ft>GT>MF.
I love how people forget that Wartecher even exists.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 15, 2008, 08:16 PM
I love how people forget that Wartecher even exists.

gee, why do you think THAT is?!


Increasing enemy DFP would help gunner types. DAMAGE OVER TIME.
Remember when it was way too slow to kill jarba/polhavorahs/tengohs without them?

Remember when gunners were expected to carry traps?


@Pillian: I guess you are right. I would be happy with a job that had level 30 support, level 40 techs, and some access to weapons/ATP.
*sigh*

zandra117
Dec 15, 2008, 09:16 PM
Jellen, Zalure, or Zoldeel as an AT = instant tag on the whole room. So if your complaining about tags as an AT GTFO.

I always debuff the enemies with Jellen first. Then while my party is fighting them I buff everyone then I swap to debuffs again and put Jellen, Zalure, and Zoldeel debuffs on everything untill everyones buff expires. Rinse and repeat.

If everything is debuffed and buffed I will swap to my TCSM/Dagger combo and fight using Hikai and Regrant while Healing with Giresta.

I also have some Arb Boa Twin Handguns for ranged combat. And some Storm Handgun/Tesbra combos with Nosdiga and Dambarta for soloing. I have a Storm Line so when the Storm Handgun is in my left hand I get a +50 TECH bonus that compliments my Tesbra.

Ocha
Dec 15, 2008, 09:22 PM
i dont think that power is much of an issue for acrotechers becuase the key to being a powerfull acrotecher is having strong support, imense speed, and a large range. This way you can do as much damage as a fortetecher and contribute more. There is really no need to use melee attacks

Tsavo
Dec 15, 2008, 09:29 PM
I love how people forget that Wartecher even exists.
Wartecher forgot Wartecher exists.

Pillan
Dec 15, 2008, 09:30 PM
Increasing enemy DFP would help gunner types. DAMAGE OVER TIME.
Remember when it was way too slow to kill jarba/polhavorahs/tengohs without them?

Remember when gunners were expected to carry traps?

But that's wrong. Increaseing enemy DFP would decrease their damage/time, thus making status effects like burn more viable. By doing such you're weakening the ranger by nerfing their current advantages to uselessness in order to make traps useful by comparison. If, say DFP was increased so that shotguns did half the damage they do now, I'd still be spamming 2000s as an Acrotecher with Vivi Danga though my machineguns as that class would do double digit damage (if not straight zeros). If you're not increasing DFP by that much, you still won't be using traps that often.

zandra117
Dec 15, 2008, 09:36 PM
The only thing that can make Wartecher worth swapping to is if it had lvl 40 skills. That way it can be an ok Hunter that can also use spells.

unicorn
Dec 15, 2008, 09:44 PM
I actually would prefer AT to get 40 attack technics. Technically, they're supposed to be attack techers before fighters, but their 20 skills outdamage their 30 attack techs.

I think it should be like this:

MF: 50/10. And better defensive stats than FT. They should be a pure tech-offensive type. I really don't think they should give up sooo much HP and DFP for techs, when they have shit support.

FT: 50/40. Primarily an attack techer with good support. Its much slower than MF and lower defensive stats.

AT. 40/50. Already explained.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 15, 2008, 09:47 PM
I actually think that MF, fT, and AT are one of the few instances where ST has managed to balance things reasonably well. Each serves its own purpose.

Pillan
Dec 15, 2008, 09:51 PM
Honestly, the only classes that I'd argue are horribly balanced are Wartecher and, to a lesser extent, Guntecher. Of course, both suffer even more with the new tech caps. Now they're the weakest support (let's not count Masterforce) and their attack techs had already been useless. If they did something more like 30/20/40/20 and 10/40/20/40, they'd both have had significant improvements.

Sexy_Raine
Dec 15, 2008, 11:01 PM
AT doesn't need lv40 offense techs. It's a good class, believe me. Its support techs is all you need. However I feel lv30 bullets would be good to have, as I like using my hoshi-kikami. And it won't make it overpowered. Other than that, it doesn't need anything else. 20/30/30/50 would be perfect.

Arika
Dec 15, 2008, 11:32 PM
I think Acrotecher should get level 50 techs (ALL thecs, not just healing ones!) PLUS level 50 whip, slicer and rifle.

lol, why not include level 50 axe and spear and shotgun too ? :roll:

Zarode
Dec 15, 2008, 11:39 PM
To all the people who voted Acrotechers being "overpowered", just how exactly is the acrotecher overpowered? No seriously, buffs is all they got going for them. They can make other classes unstoppable doom machines, but seriously now. :nono:

Turb0
Dec 15, 2008, 11:41 PM
Right. My mistake. That's still what I mean.

Yeah I know you what meant, I just thought I'd be a grammar nazi and throw a duck at the end. :p

DreXxiN
Dec 15, 2008, 11:44 PM
Yeah I know you what meant; I just thought I'd be a grammar nazi and throw a duck at the end. :p


FIX'D 4 GRAMMAR NAZI PURPOSES!

(Sorry, I just REALLY have been itching to use a semicolon lately. >_>)

Kumlekar
Dec 15, 2008, 11:57 PM
Why would acro get the same tech level as FT? That would make FT completely useless... Attack speed > TP is almost all cases, and acro already destroys everyone else when it comes ot support.

Pillan
Dec 16, 2008, 12:14 AM
To all the people who voted Acrotechers being "overpowered", just how exactly is the acrotecher overpowered? No seriously, buffs is all they got going for them. They can make other classes unstoppable doom machines, but seriously now. :nono:

Most people who voted that option chose it because there was no third option at the time. I'm fairly certain that the entire group thinks Acrotecher is fine and balanced, myself included.

unicorn
Dec 16, 2008, 12:19 AM
If they did something more like 30/20/40/20 and 10/40/20/40, they'd both have had significant improvements.

YES I THOUGHT WT AND GT SHOULD HAVE THIS TOO! XD Thank goodness I'm not the only one...

And for the most part AT seems to be the most attractive techer (stat-wise). I think all techers need a noticable TP boost for them to compete with melee though.

I never understood why FF has a 185% ATP mod at 20 and FM has a 168% at 20. FT has a 170% TP mod and MF has a 152% one. But fighters have broken defense that they don't really need support (so all techers are left out of parties), more DPS, and more weapon choices.

Shinko
Dec 16, 2008, 12:32 AM
Wartecher forgot Wartecher exists.

lol so true so true



I actually would prefer AT to get 40 attack technics. Technically, they're supposed to be attack techers before fighters, but their 20 skills outdamage their 30 attack techs.



What makes u think they pose to be attack techers. I think they just suppose to be supporter with melee gun and tech attacks as back up. And even if the did get 40 attack techs, their melee would still out damage it. (sh** i think it would even if it was a 50 but i maybe be wrong about that....maybe)

dexter_safe
Dec 16, 2008, 01:27 AM
acrotecher make any other class hella stronger. they are the best supp/ort techer class in the game. and now they are about to get better with the lvl 41+ support spells =P i am an acrotecher on the 360 name is Sam =]

Rayokarna
Dec 16, 2008, 02:11 AM
AT is fine as it is.

But as a Wartecher user, I also feel WT is fine as it is generally. I can generally clear missions faster with Wartecher that I do with Protranser.

BahnKnakyu
Dec 16, 2008, 02:49 AM
Let's see, superior support, decent attack techs, and it can melee. Plus it's a damn durable class. Blocks like mad, and even if you miss a block somewhere you got the HP and DFP to take the hit.

They have a decent assortment of secondary weapons when they're not supporting. Hell, they can support WHILE doing melee, and they have a decent selection of one handers that synergizes perfectly with a left handed Madoog. On top of that they have a speed boost to BOTH their melee and attack.

Once again I ask, what the heck is the problem here? It doesn't need anything else - it's a fun class to play IMO. It's fine as it is (well, it's still awesome after the Friday update)

Alnet
Dec 16, 2008, 03:21 AM
I never understood why FF has a 185% ATP mod at 20 and FM has a 168% at 20. FT has a 170% TP mod and MF has a 152% one. But fighters have broken defense that they don't really need support (so all techers are left out of parties), more DPS, and more weapon choices.
Because Fighmaster uses LV50 Anga Redda with Acrotecher speed. Masterforce uses LV50 Megid with Acrotecher speed. Fortefighter and Fortetecher can't keep up with that. Having even higher power mods on top of that would cause untold brokenness.

Rayokarna
Dec 16, 2008, 05:01 AM
Because Fighmaster uses LV50 Anga Redda with Acrotecher speed. Masterforce uses LV50 Megid with Acrotecher speed. Fortefighter and Fortetecher can't keep up with that. Having even higher power mods on top of that would cause untold brokenness.

Lucky they don't lol.

Darius_Drake
Dec 16, 2008, 11:02 AM
To all the people who voted Acrotechers being "overpowered", just how exactly is the acrotecher overpowered? No seriously, buffs is all they got going for them. They can make other classes unstoppable doom machines, but seriously now. :nono:

Initially that was the only option if you had if you didn't think they needed level 40 techs. The "fine as they are" option wasn't given til recently. Calm down. The fine as they are option was brought up by those taking the poll cause they didn't want to say that acrotechers were overpowered even though they felt they were just fine without level 40 techs.

SolomonGrundy
Dec 16, 2008, 02:48 PM
For the guy who said Acrotechers have plenty of HP. They have 10% more than Fortetechers. Who have the worst HP in the game.



Pillain said: But that's wrong. Increaseing enemy DFP would decrease their damage/time, thus making status effects like burn more viable. By doing such you're weakening the ranger by nerfing their current advantages to uselessness in order to make traps useful by comparison. If, say DFP was increased so that shotguns did half the damage they do now, I'd still be spamming 2000s as an Acrotecher with Vivi Danga though my machineguns as that class would do double digit damage (if not straight zeros). If you're not increasing DFP by that much, you still won't be using traps that often.

I'm not sure what race/%/slot units you are using, by my acrotecher, with 20-30% weapons, a cati power, and as a newman does not hit for 2000's now. Not by a long shot.

Raising DFP would make DEBUFFS more usefull as well as make DoT more usefull. Win-win.

And while you are at it, make all techs-like attacks from enemies be tied to ATP (like Deljaban megis are now). Jellen becomes more important.

Not sure what to do about Zodial. that tech sucks. Bring back Bee-evp?

amtalx
Dec 16, 2008, 02:54 PM
Bring back Bee-evp?

That never should have been changed in the first place.

Fighters: WAAAAAHHH! These 0s are bruising my ego. Change it for us ST!
Techers and Gunners: That's what we're here for--
Fighters: *cries louder*

:D

Akaimizu
Dec 16, 2008, 02:55 PM
I would've rather had a tech that dropped enemy tech power. :) Then again, that's a debuff kept out of the game. That is, if the enemy can boost it, it wouldn't be a bad idea if the player can remove it.

Pillan
Dec 16, 2008, 03:03 PM
Level 150 Caseal, AT 20, 42-50% whips, Lumirus/Kaos Knight. Average damage to mobs in the current GBR S2 missions is 2400-2500 per hit, depending on the whip.

And, as I said, it’s not win-win, it’s lose-lose. Burning things sucks because burn does less damage than opposite element now. If you increase enemy DFP so that burning things becomes more viable, you’re slowing the ranger down significantly and taking away their real advantage. You’re just hurting ranger to the point that they start burning things because they have no other choice.

Debuffs themselves are fine and Zalure is the only one that has a problem. However, you could easily fix Zalure by giving it the same effect as Deband, which decreases enemy ATP rather than increasing your DFP. Zalure should increase your ATP and there would be no problem. And how can you not see use for Zodeel while fighting level 165 Deljaban with the boot buff?

And, personally, I like the lack of a tech debuff. Everyone’s already complaining about how easy the game is. Why make it easier?

Akaimizu
Dec 16, 2008, 03:11 PM
Mainly because I don't believe lacking a tech debuff is part of the solution. Just the monsters being overall underpowered. Too many select classes can basically devastate any monster out there because even with their current defenses, the monsters can't handle it. And i'm talking direct damage. And many of the monsters don't use techs.

The idea is as more monsters die right away, the stronger every-class gets defensively against monsters, then the game turns into a (everybody stand in place, pull out strongest DFP weapon) game. So right now, it's only a select few classes and race combinations, in higher levels, and certain situations that have more cause to use their larger part of their arsenal. DoTs are almost useless in many parties now, because barely a click or two goes by before the monster is dead from direct damage. And that's if you use a trap or your SE was lucky enough to start right away.

Cracka_J
Dec 16, 2008, 03:18 PM
I voted fine as-is.

They are by no means overpowered by themselves, but they will soon have the abilities to make a TEAM overpowered. I consider that more of a perk of playing the class then considering a sole AT overpowered.

They have base single hand weapon attacks, good offensive techs, and godly support. Seems pretty balanced if you ask me.

I also don't get why people wanting higher level techs just don't switch to fT? Wow, on Friday there's your 40 offensive tech and 40 support class...isn't that what this poll is basically asking for? Oh noes I gotta give up S rank tech mags for high grinded shatos, and the option to use overpowered rods...what a loss.

Pillan
Dec 16, 2008, 03:19 PM
Personally, I prefer the game in the current “enemies hit hard and die fast” format. If you want to modify it so they hit harder, that’s fine by me. But I’d hate to go back to the slowness of the original PSU. Might be a good idea to request for burn, infection, and poison to do more damage rather than to request everything else to be nerfed to the point where you have to spend an hour in a party of six to get to Onmagoug.

Akaimizu
Dec 16, 2008, 03:42 PM
Whatever the idea is, my simple idea is that if ST implements it, makes it a big aspect of the game's balancing act; they better keep it that way. Implementing a large and growing part of the gameplay (not simply individual weapons and inventory, but entire class weapon-base) that gets over-written by a much smaller set of primary things that aren't very class-balanced, is just not a good idea.

Turb0
Dec 16, 2008, 10:09 PM
FIX'D 4 GRAMMAR NAZI PURPOSES!

(Sorry, I just REALLY have been itching to use a semicolon lately. >_>)

Maybe you should look into wearing one of these: :p

[spoiler-box]http://www.noahbrier.com/images/110305/semicolon.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Ffuzzy-Logik
Dec 16, 2008, 10:15 PM
Personally, I prefer the game in the current “enemies hit hard and die fast” format. If you want to modify it so they hit harder, that’s fine by me. But I’d hate to go back to the slowness of the original PSU. Might be a good idea to request for burn, infection, and poison to do more damage rather than to request everything else to be nerfed to the point where you have to spend an hour in a party of six to get to Onmagoug.Agree one hundred percent with this.

Pre-AoI PSU was grueling.

Shou
Dec 16, 2008, 10:24 PM
enough with the satires please...

unicorn
Dec 17, 2008, 01:35 AM
I honestly had muuuch more fun Pre-AoI. As long as we keep droprates, and increase difficulty...its fine IMO.

I liked when people debated about Burn or Virus, lvling their Ice bullets, trying to confuse Gaozorans so they wouldn't heal themselves....Goodstuff

When Fortetecher was a desired member of the team because Fighters need their healing. When someone said "FT looking for party" they would get instant invite.

I liked when support was uber. When CAST FT was useful in Neudaiz 1up. And buffs were looked highly upon.

*sigh* The game is sooo easy...I kinda feel retarded playing.

MSAksion
Dec 17, 2008, 01:56 AM
I miss TEAMWORK.

Back in Version one there was real team dynamic. Against BEEZ my team would send a Force and Ranger up front. As the Ranger's Freeze Trap goes off the Force is already Zodeel and Zalure the BEEZ so that the melee people can rush in to kill without missing.

Now its a rush to see who can one combo a monster. Dus majarra and Anga Jabroken does the job of an entire Army of Rangers and Forces.

BACK to ACROTECHER TECH to 40. NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

An AT spamming Megid 40 that fast is not my idea of balance. ATs have;

1) TECHNIC - 30 tech and 50 support is excatly what FT was back in version one - but faster.

2) GUNS - S rank Cards, Dual Pistols, Machine Gun. DaYUM. Isn't that great mobile shooting? Dual pistols can outdamage Rifles and Machine gun lets you DPS anything while holding a Resta Wand.

3) MELEE - a wide assortment of Figunner style quick multi-hitting small blades and of course the WHIP. and upgraded melee speed? WTFHaxors.

4) STATS - Good Defense, Good HP, Good ATP enough to make whips incredible DPS esp with Speed upgrade. Twin Sabers, Single Sabers, Knifes, what else does a quick stabbing tech slinger need?

Nothing wrong with AT at the moment. With level 50 buffs they now can focus even more on attacking and throwing extra killing power between buff stops.

Alnet
Dec 17, 2008, 05:19 AM
Personally, I prefer the game in the current “enemies hit hard and die fast” format. If you want to modify it so they hit harder, that’s fine by me. But I’d hate to go back to the slowness of the original PSU. Might be a good idea to request for burn, infection, and poison to do more damage rather than to request everything else to be nerfed to the point where you have to spend an hour in a party of six to get to Onmagoug.


I miss TEAMWORK.

Back in Version one there was real team dynamic. Against BEEZ my team would send a Force and Ranger up front. As the Ranger's Freeze Trap goes off the Force is already Zodeel and Zalure the BEEZ so that the melee people can rush in to kill without missing.

Now its a rush to see who can one combo a monster. Dus majarra and Anga Jabroken does the job of an entire Army of Rangers and Forces.

BACK to ACROTECHER TECH to 40. NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

An AT spamming Megid 40 that fast is not my idea of balance. ATs have;

1) TECHNIC - 30 tech and 50 support is excatly what FT was back in version one - but faster.

2) GUNS - S rank Cards, Dual Pistols, Machine Gun. DaYUM. Isn't that great mobile shooting? Dual pistols can outdamage Rifles and Machine gun lets you DPS anything while holding a Resta Wand.

3) MELEE - a wide assortment of Figunner style quick multi-hitting small blades and of course the WHIP. and upgraded melee speed? WTFHaxors.

4) STATS - Good Defense, Good HP, Good ATP enough to make whips incredible DPS esp with Speed upgrade. Twin Sabers, Single Sabers, Knifes, what else does a quick stabbing tech slinger need?

Nothing wrong with AT at the moment. With level 50 buffs they now can focus even more on attacking and throwing extra killing power between buff stops.
I'm gonna go with this and this. :3

I REMEMBER when Demons Above S came out, and the LV60 Olgohmons used to trample us. We spent more on Scape Dolls than we got back from drops and mission rewards combined. But now, things are set up so that one person can pretty much annihilate a whole mission without taking 50% of their HP in damage. We've jumped from one end of the scale to the other.

That said, AT with LV40 attack techs would kinda tip it over into the stereotypically broken Beast Male Fortefighter who only uses a cookie cutter palette of Slicer/handgun, Spears, and Axes. Except replace that with an assortment of other weapons (not that they'll get used because of lolSimonBelmontspam).

AT is fine as it is. LV20 melee is MORE THAN ENOUGH for a class that doesn't have a melee priority. Same with bullets, considering AT's only two-handed gun is Twin Handguns. LV30 attack techs are fine, considering the stupidly high casting speed with AT, Har/Quick (or Smart), and a Madoog. With LV50 support Techs, LV40 attack Techs, and auto-boosted speed, it would sorta force fT out of the picture unless you -really- like Rods and Longbows. And like I said before... even if AT did manage to break the game in this way, it's not like anyone would use them, since everyone would be busy going Vampire Killer on the monsters. It's just pointless overall.

DEM_CIG
Dec 17, 2008, 07:35 AM
Why are acrotechers even being considered being the third best techer, they should be the first. I mean master techer is just gona be a super charged fortetecher that cant heal worth crap, and fortetechers are gona be the most balanced so... acrotecher ftw!

MoorePSO
Dec 17, 2008, 11:53 AM
Every other class has the ability to attack, kill, and gain EXP in groups with no problems...... Except AT's. We're stuck playing nurse maids to everyone else while they hog all the glory (so to speak).
I think you may need to reconsider your play style...

I have zero problems with my AT getting hits in groups. A couple of Zonde/Barta/Megid's or Ra techs, plus some whip action and I manage to get tags on everything while still keeping the party healed, cured of SE's, and buffed. And when I'm even more serious, combine a Card or Sonichi with a heal wand and it's Tag & Heal all day long.

DreXxiN
Dec 17, 2008, 11:59 AM
Maybe you should look into wearing one of these: :p

[spoiler-box]http://www.noahbrier.com/images/110305/semicolon.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Dude, I'm wearing one of those right now, k?

Darius_Drake
Dec 17, 2008, 12:03 PM
Guess everyone forgot that Debuffs are auto-tags.

:-?

And please DO NOT PLAY MAIN SUPPORT CLASSES and expect them to be able to solo well or do anything great WITHOUT A PARTY TO SUPPORT.

Wow, that says it all. End of discussion. LOL!!!

Darius_Drake
Dec 17, 2008, 12:10 PM
I voted fine as-is.

They are by no means overpowered by themselves, but they will soon have the abilities to make a TEAM overpowered. I consider that more of a perk of playing the class then considering a sole AT overpowered.

They have base single hand weapon attacks, good offensive techs, and godly support. Seems pretty balanced if you ask me.

I also don't get why people wanting higher level techs just don't switch to fT? Wow, on Friday there's your 40 offensive tech and 40 support class...isn't that what this poll is basically asking for? Oh noes I gotta give up S rank tech mags for high grinded shatos, and the option to use overpowered rods...what a loss.

I was wondering that from the beginning. Instead of begging for 10 levels just switch to fT. Most likely these people don't have level 40 support techs right now so there is no difference.

acier287
Dec 18, 2008, 03:07 PM
there fine as is. lv 50 buffs? sure as long as your doing acros job the right way i have no problem with AT. don't complain about the damage if u wanna hit harder go play fortetecher.