Does the game need rebalancing

[tadtwisted]

With the comming of master classes all i see is the death of variety, it's rare if i see more than 4 classes (master force, fighmaster, gunmaster, acrotecher) this might go away whe people start hitting lv 20 on the job class but i think there should be some tweaks in the game. Fighgunner, Guntecher, Wartecher, Fortefighter, dont really need anything (maybe a stat tweak) Acrotecher and Fortetecher are fine the way they are. Protranser should get lv 40 skills and/or a stat tweak. Acrofighter has gone the way of the dinosaur, i know they are one handed experts but they should get s rank daggers (with there speed and evp it would make the class a whole lot better) Fortegunner needs s rank machineguns, to try and lure some people from gunmaster, with having that and grenades and the pp savings I belive alot of people will stay fortegunner until there bullets get to 40. Fighmaster is the mose unbalanced to me, they got everything too good and no downside, I would take away axes and give them knuckles or twin sabers. ( I would love to see a fighmaster ikk hikk ) This would still give people a reason to play fortefighter. Master force need the tech nerf now (i was so against it but now i do see the need for it)and i think the support spell should go to at least 20 (making them at least as useful as a Megistaride). So thats what i would do, but let me know what you would do to add some spice back to psu.

Sorry if there is spelling mistakes im horrible at speling :(

[Sol-Edge]

All I would like is S-Rank cards and S-Rank Twin Swords on Acrofighter. Everything else seems fine to me.

The reason people are spamming those 4 classes is because they are not letting all that MP they get hunting new rares go to waste. People also want to get skills to level 50.

[Shou]

I think this is the only RPG where the classes that are the hardest to die are the most powerful and the classes that die the easiest do the least damage >>

Techers need to do WAY more damage.

[biggabertha]

So typical that Wartecher got left out...

Wartecher needs some love!!! But what kind of love, exactly?

Lv. 40 skills, Lv. 30 bullets and Lv. 30 TECHNICs still probably wouldn't help them out at this point, their stats could do with some tweaking in the attack area but then, I don't think they'd be as fun then.

Good thing balances aren't up to me then, heh!

[fay]

1st character - masterforce - i play it because i want all techer classes at 20 and eventually 30 if they release it. i might go back to fortetecher because of actually having support spells which are useable. however going masterforce to fortetecher may hurt me in speed

2nd character - gunmaster - ill stay this. it has everything i want. when other classes all i used was twin handguns, rifles, shotguns and on a very very very very rare occasion grenades. no reason to go back

3rd character - fighmaster - i fecking hate this class. for me it sucks big time. axe=most hated weapon in the game. spear=too linear. dont like it. sword=its OK at most. double saber=i like.
i like speed weapons not slow bits of crap. i couldnt care less about big numbers. ill stay fortefight so i can use twin sabers,double claws etc

4th character - acrotecher - i was making one of these before i even knew about masterclasses so im going to stick with it

[The_Brimada]

( I would love to see a fighmaster ikk hikk )

It would be the same as an Acrofighter doing it. :p

I would also like to see PT with lvl 40 skills, but that may be asking a bit too much. For the most part the classes seem fine to me save a few types should get some A ranks upgraded to S (looks at Acrofighter).

[tadtwisted]

So typical that Wartecher got left out...

Wartecher needs some love!!! But what kind of love, exactly?

Lv. 40 skills, Lv. 30 bullets and Lv. 30 TECHNICs still probably wouldn't help them out at this point, their stats could do with some tweaking in the attack area but then, I don't think they'd be as fun then.

Good thing balances aren't up to me then, heh!

WOW your trying to make wartecher a monster, i think they have a good balance of pa levels but just like guntecher and fighgunner there stats need to be boosted a bit to keep them relevant.

[Kylie]

I'd definitely have them bump up the stats of WT and GT, but I think it's more important for them to make missions and enemies harder beyond that. They should level out the rewards too. This is why I'm interested in S3 v1 missions.

[darkante]

Yeah, i think the hybrid classes should get a extra boost in power.
Sufficent to compete with their Forte variants.


And forces should be the ones who exterminates the foes, not the meleers or gunners.
Low hp should compensate with supa power.

And i also feel that Gunners Shotgun weapon type shouldn´t be the main way to damage foes, Gunners are supposed to be more for long distance and support really IMO.

[xBladeM6x]

The only things that need re-balancing is as follows:

WT - More ATP
GT - More ATP

Any Techer Class - Ra Spells Should hit more than 1 target on a monster with multiple hit boxes.

That's all that needs to be changed. People just want everything changed because they don't like the selection they have made, and don't want to have to go back and make a new character. Techers are the only people who get shafted. Not a single gunner or fighter should complain. That, and most people don't want to change classes or sacrifice anything, so they complain that they want what they want on their class.


WOW your trying to make wartecher a monster, i think they have a good balance of pa levels but just like guntecher and fighgunner there stats need to be boosted a bit to keep them relevant.
That's the catch of going Fighgunner over Fighmaster. You sacrifice power and speed for versatility.

[Aisha379]

The game certainly needs rebalancing on a number of levels, not just classes.

I think starting on the races would be best and just branch out from there.

[xBladeM6x]

I think starting on the races would be best and just branch out from there.
Yeah, but only in the fact that when using guns, your damage should be measured by ATA, not how hard you can pull the trigger. That would make a Beast be the worst gunners. As they should be. Just as newmans being the worst fighters, and Casts being the worst Techers.

[Aries2384]

Does the game need a rebalance? Yes. Will Sega actually do the work to rebalance it? No. FURTHER. If they actually managed to rebalance it, would it be a favorable rebalance or would things just go horribly wrong? I'm for the latter. I say PSU isn't going anywhere. I wonder what that so called next "expansion" has got packed under its skirt.

[xBladeM6x]

Does the game need a rebalance? Yes. Will Sega actually do the work to rebalance it? No. FURTHER. If they actually managed to rebalance it, would it be a favorable rebalance or would things just go horribly wrong? I'm for the latter. I say PSU isn't going anywhere. I wonder what that so called next "expansion" has got packed under its skirt.
From what has been explained so far, there will be numerous "Gameplay Battle Updates." Which I'm guessing means a reasonable re balance for the classes needed. Also, new areas with Phantasy Star Portable weapons.

[RAGNAGELPPOD]

Yeah, but only in the fact that when using guns, your damage should be measured by ATA, not how hard you can pull the trigger. That would make a Beast be the worst gunners. As they should be. Just as newmans being the worst fighters, and Casts being the worst Techers.

That would take away some of the fun and variety though. Thee are players that absolutely adore beasts but couldnt care less about casts, and some of them would want to be great gunners without being locked into the race/job combos that PSO had fed us back in yesteryear. I find it sorta fun to be helped by a fortetecher for an entire run, only to have that player nanoblast in the boss room. It adds a certain spicy experience to the run that you just wouldn't feel if it were the classic newman force character.

[xBladeM6x]

That would take away some of the fun and variety though. Thee are players that absolutely adore beasts but couldnt care less about casts, and some of them would want to be great gunners without being locked into the race/job combos that PSO had fed us back in yesteryear. I find it sorta fun to be helped by a fortetecher for an entire run, only to have that player nanoblast in the boss room. It adds a certain spicy experience to the run that you just wouldn't feel if it were the classic newman force character.
I'm just going off of what would make the game completely balanced race wise. And people would still be Beast gunners. Look at the people who are female newman fighters, and cast techers. They are the weakest at what they do, but that didn't stop them.

Fighmaster is the mose unbalanced to me, they got everything too good and no downside, I would take away axes and give them knuckles or twin sabers. ( I would love to see a fighmaster ikk hikk ) This would still give people a reason to play fortefighter. Master force need the tech nerf now (i was so against it but now i do see the need for it)and i think the support spell should go to at least 20 (making them at least as useful as a Megistaride).
Fighmasters do sacrifice a lot to use the wepons, and speed they have. They have a ridiculous PP useage, and they have a power decrease from FF. That, and jabroga only gets 1% ATA from each level between 41-50. Meaning that your not going to out power a FF. You just are going to be able to pull it off more times. On top of that, we don't get pistols. Hence a another sacrifice. They can't shoot switches, De Rol Le, and Omnagoug and Dimmagoulus. (Whatever his name is) And they can't shoot Flying Dragons.

And Masterforce should not have anything other than level 10 buffs/healing. They are meant to be a completely OFFENSIVE class. If you or anyone else doesn't like that, then go Acrotecher, or Fortetecher. Acrotecher = Barely and attacking, most healing, Fortetecher = Mid-point between power and healing, Master force = Barely any healing, most attack. See that pattern?

[Aries2384]

That would take away some of the fun and variety though. Thee are players that absolutely adore beasts but couldnt care less about casts, and some of them would want to be great gunners without being locked into the race/job combos that PSO had fed us back in yesteryear. I find it sorta fun to be helped by a fortetecher for an entire run, only to have that player nanoblast in the boss room. It adds a certain spicy experience to the run that you just wouldn't feel if it were the classic newman force character.

Ahaha right right, lets see. Beast Fortetecher... does decent dmg with techs.. and 500's in nanoblasted form. Yep that TOTALLY be helpful. There's a reason people stick to the cookie cut patterns of race/class... namely..They WORK. Now don't get me wrong, I don't object to any other class besides newman going as a techer.. I just simply don't want people to go Beast techer because they think they are adding something to the party by being able to tech and nanoblast. Yeah.. the paltry damage you will be able to add doesnt really help.

On further thought to a couple posts above. If I read correctly, they said the changes will be smaller than AoTi's battle system changes. So.. smaller than the Just attack system? Yeah, we won't see the races rebalanced. Sorry to burst your bubble. It's not going to happen. Theres a reason for racial differences. Deal with it.

[0100110100110100]

I like most of the classes the way they are (the variety definitely keeps things interesting, rather than having 1 elite class to outshine the rest). However, I do agree with the poster who said techers need to do way more dmg (since they die the quickest). Also, with masters out now, maybe a speed increase on protranser to keep them worth playing? (one of my favorite classes, but it seems a lot harder to keep up now)

[xBladeM6x]

I like most of the classes the way they are (the variety definitely keeps things interesting, rather than having 1 elite class to outshine the rest). However, I do agree with the poster who said techers need to do way more dmg (since they die the quickest). Also, with masters out now, maybe a speed increase on protranser to keep them worth playing? (one of my favorite classes, but it seems a lot harder to keep up now)
As I said, all Techers need is the Ra-Spells hitting more than 1 box on a monster. That would put them up and almost beyond gunners and fighters. Protransers get EX Traps, and a good selection of power weapons. They are good the way they are.

[Chibi_psu]

Guntecher needs s rank cards....An i would bump a little the melee of acrotecher(no idea how because wartecher....)

[Rayokarna]

Both Protranser and Wartecher are fine as it is.

[GeekRuler]

Both Protranser and Wartecher are fine as it is.
Seconded :D Protranser at least never been a Wartecher :/

[Sinue_v2]

I think much of the rebalancing could be done by tweaking the enemy AI, rather than player stats. Forces should do the most damage, but they should also be the easiest to be killed. This would work a lot better if Forces had some real and present threat - such as pulling enemy hate as in other online RPGs. Gunners bread and butter was at one time spreading Status Effects - but enemies die almost too quickly now - so that needs to be fixed. Fighters should be masters at tanking, using PA's that not only get enemy attention, but can also lump them together (rather than spread them apart) to allow for easy FO nuking.

The very way the game is set up is non-conducive to party teamwork. It's mainly all about every character for themselves. I think this needs to be addressed (if it's possible) before they go too apeshit with class tweaks.

[Aisha379]

I think much of the rebalancing could be done by tweaking the enemy AI, rather than player stats. Forces should do the most damage, but they should also be the easiest to be killed. This would work a lot better if Forces had some real and present threat - such as pulling enemy hate as in other online RPGs. Gunners bread and butter was at one time spreading Status Effects - but enemies die almost too quickly now - so that needs to be fixed. Fighters should be masters at tanking, using PA's that not only get enemy attention, but can also lump them together (rather than spread them apart) to allow for easy FO nuking.

The very way the game is set up is non-conducive to party teamwork. It's mainly all about every character for themselves. I think this needs to be addressed (if it's possible) before they go too apeshit with class tweaks.

Those are actually really great ideas. And I agree with your last paragraph especially.

In order to address that specifically, I'd say taking WoW's "everyone in the party gets equal EXP, whether they hit the enemy or not" should CERTAINLY be done.

I can already hear people whining, but think about it. You have two groups of enemies spawn, everyone is running back and forth trying to hit them instead of working together because someone is going to miss out on EXP.

And what about forces? They lose out on a lot of EXP just by casting healing and buff spells, if everyone received EXP without having to hit the enemy, people would be able to work together and be even more efficient as a team.

Right now, like Sinue said, its just everyone for themselves.

[GeekRuler]

Those are actually really great ideas. And I agree with your last paragraph especially.

In order to address that specifically, I'd say taking WoW's "everyone in the party gets equal EXP, whether they hit the enemy or not" should CERTAINLY be done.

I can already hear people whining, but think about it. You have two groups of enemies spawn, everyone is running back and forth trying to hit them instead of working together because someone is going to miss out on EXP.

And what about forces? They lose out on a lot of EXP just by casting healing and buff spells, if everyone received EXP without having to hit the enemy, people would be able to work together and be even more efficient as a team.

Right now, like Sinue said, its just everyone for themselves.

But then you could have a fighter running around looking like he's doing something and he still gets all his experience (not that anyone would do that :D )

[Aries2384]

I think much of the rebalancing could be done by tweaking the enemy AI, rather than player stats. Forces should do the most damage, but they should also be the easiest to be killed. This would work a lot better if Forces had some real and present threat - such as pulling enemy hate as in other online RPGs. Gunners bread and butter was at one time spreading Status Effects - but enemies die almost too quickly now - so that needs to be fixed. Fighters should be masters at tanking, using PA's that not only get enemy attention, but can also lump them together (rather than spread them apart) to allow for easy FO nuking.

The very way the game is set up is non-conducive to party teamwork. It's mainly all about every character for themselves. I think this needs to be addressed (if it's possible) before they go too apeshit with class tweaks.

If you want a more in depth online RPG, go play one. I'll suggest WoW or FFXI to you. This is NOT an in depth online rpg. I play this to relax, FFXI when I want a good solid in depth party based game and WoW when I want a blend of both. This game will never have "aggro" more than an enemy sees you and BAM its wantin to scrap with you.
If Sega made this game more indepth, one it would suffer. Have you not seen the degrees in which this game suffers when they just try to keep this simplistic game running? Need I mention Rollbacks? How about events that were screwed up?
Two. During both the Seabed AND Whitebeast days, the vast majority of new players complained how hard this game is, how hard it is to make money and how hard it is to level. Evidence of this is when they nerfed Seabed, making the run shorter and taking the two Jarba's out of the small room of death (The most challenging and fun room in the entire run imo).
Are you kidding me? This game is not Hard. Money was always easy to make (you just had to be smart and not spend every other penny on CLOTHES AND RAPPY SUITS FOR SHIT'S SAKE!). I will say it again: THIS...GAME...IS..NOT...HARD. It has never been. Yet the masses (mostly the people who aren't a member of PSo-World) complain and bitch about how hard it is to do anything in this game. The most challenging part of the game is playing the market of player shops. A few people I know only play this game because they like to play the "economy" (if the pathetic thing in this game can be called such) and not because they like the game itself.
So, whine, bitch and complain that you want this game to be like "Other" MMO's, taking away from the PS's linear history. I on the other hand will put my foot down and say NO. Leave it as-is. Phantasy Star Online was pretty simple on terms of gameplay and I enjoyed it immensely. Come to think of it, Sega just needs to stop listening to the fanbase and make the game how it needs to be made. Ever since player input was being so blatantly shoved in Sega's face with this game, it has suffered. I say they need to clamp hands over their ears or stuff a sock in the player's mouths. My thoughts are now concluded.

[amtalx]

At this point, class balance seems fine. Hybrids are more of a novelty than anything else though (let's be honest). However, given the number of classes, balancing all of them while retaining their individual identities and usefulness is damn near impossible anyway.

Contrary to what Aries believes, this game does need some additional AI. Not far reaching changes to the aggro system, but additional behavioral AI. If you really look closely, there are only a handful of AI schemes. Ubakradas are just fast Polavohras, Volfu are slow Orcdillians, and so on. We need new enemies with new behavioral AI.

[Alnet]

I don't think the class stats so much need to be changed as how influential they are ingame. As it is now, ATP and HP are pretty much dominant, and nobody cares about ATA, TP, EVP, DFP, or MST, and STA can be made up with Resist units. This makes it basically so that Fortefighter and Fighmaster (arguably the easiest classes to use in the game, since they're simple, regain PP every time they use a normal attack, and their PAs level up MUCH faster than others') are the most powerful classes, whereas Gunner and Techer classes (who have to put much more time and effort into leveling up their PAs) are regarded as generally inferior or just superfluous.

As of now, the only balance is in the weapons, where Fighters are seeking high% weapons (Gunners and Techers don't need them, obviously), but they really can make do with mediocre% weapons and still do as much or more damage as a similarly leveled Gunner or Techer.

Even so, I believe the biggest balance that needs to be arranged between the classes is Just Attack. Having 100% of the time rapid-fire multi-hitbox critical hits is just gamebreaking. This either needs to be modified severely or to allow the other classes some form of Just Attack and Just Counter. Having even the animation and audio to this but absolutely no effect is a slap in the face. If they're going to allow all the classes some form of Just Attack, then the enemy stats are going to have to be boosted proportionally, otherwise everything will die in record time.

Since AotI, all of the existing classes gained some kind of boost, whether it be from PA modification, stat boosting, or new weapon types, and yet enemies in the game are largely untouched, aside from the ones with TECHNICs that got powered up along with ours (such as Olgohmon). For the most part, we're literally fighting the exact same monsters as before, but at higher levels. It's already been said that the monsters need some kind of AI tweak, and I agree. I also agree that the ones who had their stats reduced (various bugs and so on) need to have their stats returned to normal at higher levels. I don't think it's too much of an issue at lower levels for people to not have trouble with enemies, but when you're running S2 and there's LV165 enemies all around you, there should definitely be some need for teamwork. I support higher all-around stats for enemies (not to the point of being ridiculous - for some of us, being 1-shotted by Vahras is already a very real issue), especially bosses. Monsters that big should last more than 60 seconds, and should hit hard enough to kill you as quickly as we kill them now.

tl;dr, I want there to be some need for teamwork in the high-rank missions. By no means do I want them to be unsoloable, or go back to PSUv1's "it takes an hour for 6 people to run Demons Above S", but the way the game is set up now makes it stupidly easy for some, and the proper difficulty for others.

[Aisha379]

But then you could have a fighter running around looking like he's doing something and he still gets all his experience (not that anyone would do that :D )

Yeah, but how much does that really matter? You're still getting EXP and moving through missions fast, the booting option is always there.

Everyone wants to get to lvl 100+ to do all the good missions (IE: S2 difficulty), so having the ability to "cheaply" level up to 100 by having someone hanging around is NOT that bad of a thing thats going to "break" the game or cause others to level up too fastly, plus, the level requirements for missions are still there, so its not like you can invite a lvl 20 to an S2 mission and help level them.

Yes, the idea has a few, minuscule "flaws" that allow people to somewhat take advantage of free EXP, but in the end, I think the sense of teamwork it would cause trumps the issues hundreds of times over.


EDIT: About missions difficulty.

I think it'd probably be a good idea for more people in party = monsters get stronger. Kinda like the meseta drops.

One persons in a party trying to solo something, its not insanely hard but not easy either, they can do pretty good. Their friend joins, the enemies levels and stats go up some to compensate, more join, higher stats, etc etc. The monsters counterbalance the number of people so one side isn't completely dominating the other at any given time.

[_K1_]

People will stop playing master classes once they hit 20 -- they'll play whatever's easiest.

As for rebalance, one thing I'd like to see is more tech-using mobs. Very few enemies use techs, so MST is totally worthless (and therefore CASTs lose nothing with their terrible MST mod; conversely Newmans gain nothing). Just a thought.

Once people get master classes leveled up, things will be back to normal, where almost any party composition will work. One nice thing about Masterforce is that people are learning that having a techer (or worse, having a Newman) in the party doesn't mean you can just disregard your HP or not equip /Resist units and someone else will handle it.

[autumn]

I think a few small tweaks in type rebalancing would be wonderful. Aside from needing them to get into the mastertypes GT and WT are almost non-existant. AF would benefit from some sort of update, whether it be in weapon selection or something else.

I both hate and completely agree with people who mention a boost to techers. Before the mastertypes were released I got tired of wasting MP and dumped my newman into FiG from FT and even with her sub-par stats, with decent equipment her DPS was better in FiG. So while I dislike aimless whining, I'd love my less then 2k Hp to at least keep up with the other types dmg now that I'm in MF.

[DesuJet]

I've hit gunmaster 20 and I love the shit out of it.

But before anyone thinks the classes need rebalancing I think you should look at the technical problems of the game like:

-Hit-detection
-Divided data where the enemy data is on the disc, but the character data is on the servers. This explains why there's a delay in weapon change, item consumption (dying even though you popped a mate before the enemy hit you), etc...
-S+10's (seriously, what's stopping Sega from deleting all the S+10's from the 360 servers?)

[Pillan]

Let’s see…

The first thing I would change is the use of versatility. Seriously, 99% of the complaints in this game could be fixed by just adding a large number of melee-resistant mobs. Make about 30% of the mobs single-target melee resistant, 30% single-target range resistant, and 30% single-target tech resistant and then all 3 Master classes are screwed and the hybrid classes become more useful.

The second would be more updates to the hybrid classes. Wartecher and Guntecher are too weak. I’d give Wartecher about the same TP as Masterforce, S rank whips, S rank madoogs, A rank rod access, and 40 attack techs. I’d give Guntecher the same ATP as Gunmaster, A rank whips (why not?), 20 skills, and 40 support techs. Fighgunner is pretty good as is, but I’d increase its attack power to be about the same as Fighmaster so that the only loss was the speed disadvantage and equipment. The only Forte-class I would change would be 20 skills to Fortetecher, just for the hell of it. The other classes are fine as-is.

On tech damage, I’d have to say I disagree with the current sentiment that it should do more damage for crappy stats. This is simply because even though Masterforce can die quickly, they don’t. 90% of my experiences with Masterforces in the party is simply watching my screen get blinded as they stun-lock every medium and small mob with their Ra-series techs until they die a few seconds later. The only time they really die is from point-blanking Mother Brain’s face with Diga or enemy Megid, both of which I’d argue they deserve. I would, however, update the Gi-series that it could hit multiple targets because it’s short range and maxes at 6 enemies.

On range damage, I like the fast pace of the game. However, it would be nice if status effects landed faster while also making the game more challenging. I wouldn’t change the immunity values, but I would buff the landing rates at pre-immunity values, as was done with the original AoI update. I would also double the damage of burn, poison, and infection. I’d also rebalance all 1 hand range, bows, and all the ultimate bullet arts.

On the races, I wouldn’t change anything. However, I’d set the game so range and tech do around 80% of the damage of melee.

[Finalzone]

I haven't played much Techer other than Wartecher (fun to play as it remind the old Humar.

- Both Enemy and NPC AI needs to be updated i.e smarter.
- The ideas to add more enemies depending the number of member from party
- I think Master classes as designed from expert in mind requiring strategy and how to effectively use them.

[Aries2384]

I've hit gunmaster 20 and I love the shit out of it.

But before anyone thinks the classes need rebalancing I think you should look at the technical problems of the game like:

-Hit-detection
-Divided data where the enemy data is on the disc, but the character data is on the servers. This explains why there's a delay in weapon change, item consumption (dying even though you popped a mate before the enemy hit you), etc...
-S+10's (seriously, what's stopping Sega from deleting all the S+10's from the 360 servers?)

Just the part about the difference in stored data. If we were allowed to store data on our console's, people would break it and it would be PSO all over again. The hacking would be out of control. Im not saying you had the point in mind to be able to self store character data, but at some point the idea would pop up. I refuse to agree with Sega allowing us to store our own character data, even if that means rollbacks would still suck ass.
Hit-detection was "supposedly" fixed. Nothing happened.
And on the S+10 note. I personally made 20 S+10's myself since last maintenance. Your idea would be to delete the duped ones and the ones that everyone legitly made? How ignorant.
Here's a thought. We have all these people whining before the roll back that they lost their stuff due to data corruption. What about the ONE TIME that Sega should've rolled back, but didn't? (The grinder glitch fiasco for those low on brain power). Before we get any upgrades or programming changes, I want a physical inspection and replacement of Sega's staffing. Both NA/EU and Japan sides. Mindset before chipset please. Quality before quantity please.

And on Pillan's post above. You'd set range and tech dmg to do 80% of melee? Oh so now melee'rs will do EVEN MORE dmg and easily outdmg the other classes? You want to take away ranged and tech dmg and allow melee to retain Just attack? I say take Just Attack away and give tech/range more dmg. OR... Don't add more dmg with Just Attack, simply make it so that Just attack makes attacking faster. That way its not a HUGE bonus in dmg, just the combo activates faster. Essentially an increase in dmg however its not doubling dmg like the current monstrosity is doing.

[Pillan]

You seemed to have misinterpreted my statement. I want the maximum potential of technique and ranged damage to be around 80% of the potential of melee with mid-range elemental gear. That means after taking art and Just Attack into consideration. Right now, I’m pretty sure it’s a bit less than that. Feel free to double check though.

[Aries2384]

You seemed to have misinterpreted my statement. I want the maximum potential of technique and ranged damage to be around 80% of the potential of melee with mid-range elemental gear. That means after taking art and Just Attack into consideration. Right now, I’m pretty sure it’s a bit less than that. Feel free to double check though.

Question. Why is it you want to make Melee so dominant in dmg dealing? And I didn't misinterpret anything. Im just pointing out that you want melee apparently to outdamage tech and ranged with "mid- range elemental gear". So, end point is.. the vast majority of fighters will be able to outdamage all the other classes? And then the people sporting 50%'s will compleletly dominate them? This doesn't sit well with me, sir. This will create and endless horde of whining noob melee fighters who think that its a techer's job to support them since they can't outdamage them.

[Pillan]

As mentioned above, because any techer can drop a Ra-tech and stun-lock everything that’s not a large mob until it’s dead. The ranger lacks the ability to do that, but also gets better stats, the ability to more effectively use some melee, faster attacks, and more SE use. So, though they can’t keep everything frozen as easily, they can still keep them all away. While, the hunter, on the other hand, walks up, starts hitting a few mobs, and gets knocked around by the rest. I thought that reasoning was fairly obvious.

And I’d balance assuming mid-range elemental since, you know, most of PSU is in that range. If you’d rather rebalance the whole game so that tech and bullet arts didn’t have implicit element and you had to get a rainbow of ranged and tech weapons with implicit element in the same way that melee does, that issue wouldn’t come up. Personally, I would prefer that. The problem is that it still wouldn’t be fair for the guy who gets beat up to do the same damage as the guy who could get up more easily but never does.

[Aries2384]

Oh you mean the melee guy that gets knocked around while he's using Jabroga and Tornado dance..Knocking all the enemies all over the place, generally making fighting annoying for techers and rangers? That melee guy?

[unicorn]

- Beef up up some jobs:
- Guntecher: 20/40/30/40, highter ATP, S-rank card, A-rank whip. Basically what Pillan said
- Wartecher: 30/20/30/40, S-rank Claw, S-rank Madoog, maybe A-rank rod...
- Fighgunner: more ATP
- Acrofighter: 40/30/--/--, more ATP
- Fortefighter: More HP
- Fortegunner: 20/40/--/--, More ATP and HP
- Fortetecher: More TP and MORE ATP (FF outdamages lvl 30 bows with a handgun, wtf)

- Make races more versatile.
- Let SUV/Nano charge faster when using techs. Let SUV/Nano use TP for teching classes. Perhaps we'd see more Beast and Cast MF/FTs.
- Give Newmans a special.
- Humans racial bonuses to all jobs (in CERTAIN stats).

I feel like the choices are there, but there isn't much reason. I like the general idea of Beasts being hunters, Casts being rangers, Newmans being techers, and Humans being 'balanced', but I would like more customization in this department. FFXI doesn't have a problem with races and jobs, since it doesnt use percentages like PSU. Every race should bring their own distinctive advantages to a job.

Players should have the option of playing as a Newman to be an accurate, evasive, hunter. CASTs should be weak techers with high accuracy and defensive stats to consider playing it. Beasts should be weak techers and rangers, but with lots of HP and ATP for any job they do. And humans should just fit somewhere in between no matter what the job. But no, it doesn't work for PSU. The only reason Newman fighter, CAST/Beast techer, and Human anything work is because this game is easy. If this game was harder, it would be almost impossible to pull off a successful Newman fighter, etc.

- Techs
- Debuffs: Give them higher boosts than Buffs. And make them work on bosses.
- Gi, and Dam should hit multiple targets. Basic, and RA-techs would be asking for tooo much because they have so much use.

- etc
- Nerf Jabroga and Majarra.
- S-rank bows: Hit two targets. Higher elemental %.

[Ken_Silver]

I know one thing that does need to happen with Wartechers... A massive boost in DFP. Why? Because it's supposed to be the "tank" class of PSU.

It refrences that in the official description of a Wartecher.

Not cool, when I get KO'd faster than some Fortetechers or other non-melee class.

I'll get back to some other needed tweaks once I read this whole thread and not just the first two pages. :D

[San Anto]

If they nerfed majarra and jabroga then id abandon FM and hop to GM.

[Midicronica]

Holy shit, people are still crying for Fortetecher/Masterforce to have more TP and have higher technic modifiers? They do more than enough damage right now.

Get out. :disapprove:

[Cracka_J]

Holy shit, people are still crying for Fortetecher/Masterforce to have more TP and have higher technic modifiers? They do more than enough damage right now.

Get out. :disapprove:

Oh snap! You got your burn notice!


But seriously, I think things are fine as-is. There's classes for every type of play you could possibly want, and master classes for those who want specialization. This is the AOI I wanted to play on release...just sucks it took a year+ for it to get here.

I doubt one of you has fully capped a master yet (yes, all PA's), so I don't get why there's all this complaining when not one of you have obtained full potential, unless you're sticking with forte's/hybrids. Seems like a lot of people just like complaining without putting any effort into what's already available, and that's fine. Just don't expect people to take you seriously.

[Mysterious-G]

I doubt one of you has fully capped a master yet (yes, all PA's)

you are sooo calling for Jose. :roll:

[Cracka_J]

you are sooo calling for Jose. :roll:

Jose essploded his computer, I ain't scurred.

That and he got RB2 for christmas, and he's a bit of a crack fiend when it comes to rythm games.

So needless to say, I got a few days I can still call him out. Besides, I don't see him complaining about his class/rebalancing anywhere in the thread.

[amtalx]

I know one thing that does need to happen with Wartechers... A massive boost in DFP. Why? Because it's supposed to be the "tank" class of PSU.


Slight correction. Fortefighters were supposed to be the tanks. Wartechers are a fighter-mage. That being said, yes, they still suck. :D

[Emgro]

I'm trying to come up with a good reason to play a wartecher or guntecher over an acrotecher or FT. Also not seeing much of one. The purer melee classes are more durable, do more damage, and are less dependent on grinding PA/Technic levels. All of the Force-type classes feel weak next to Hunters almost all the time.

[Pillan]

The only reason to play Wartecher is melee plus Resta. The only reasons to play Guntecher are S crossbows and melee plus Resta. Of course, the other reason is if you want to use weird combinations like S rank twin daggers, knuckles, and twin claws as the same class, but I don’t feel like counting that one.

I feel like it’s safe to say Wartecher is dead and Guntecher will die as soon as they add a class with S rank crossbows.

[Calsetes]

I think the only balancing that needs to be done - and this is probably me being the only one here who thinks it might be anything of a good idea - is the rangers, and not even anything stat-wise. All they need to do is make it so that 2-handed guns could have two different PAs assigned to them. They wouldn't fire both at once (since that'd be somewhat stupid and pointless, except for leveling purposes), but you could assign one to the primary attack button and the other to the "special" attack button, so that way you're prepared to bust out another element (or effect) when you need it, as opposed to either switching guns or going through your menus to change it.

The other option would be to make guns have an extremely weak melee attack that couldn't combo (thus no Just Attack), but would be used mainly to refill a bit of PP for the gun. Again, something only for the 2-handed guns.

Like I said, this might just be me who thinks this might be something cool for them to implement in an expansion further down the road. I know it'd be pointless and a lot easier to either just have a second gun handy, or to use a charger to refill your weapon, but sometimes there are those people who like a bit of style in their play, or who are extremely extremely cheap and save those for the "big things", like boss fights, timed events, or just having some for the guy who's healing your sorry butt every 30 seconds.

Still, you have to admit, seeing someone smack the butt of their Shigga Desta into a Vahra's face has got to be entertaining on some level, or maybe someone Cannonwhipping Mother Brain with a Meteor Cannon? And the front of the Blackbull looks like it already has something of a bayonet on the front of it.

[Shou]

Holy shit, people are still crying for Fortetecher/Masterforce to have more TP and have higher technic modifiers? They do more than enough damage right now.

Get out. :disapprove:

None of this is true. I am a lvl 20 FT/MF with my techs around lvl 42-43 with good gear. if my party wants to do speed runs and i switch to FF lvl 15 and 30+% a rank spears and axes and spam jabroga/majjara, our time decreases by minutes >>

Either nerf the F*** out of fighters and a some from gunners or buff the hell out of techers. Techers should be doing the most damage out of any other class hands down according to every other RPG lol

[Aisha379]

Gunners need to focus on low actual damage but have great SE's to compensate, with nice speed but fairly weak defense (its not fair you can stand back the whole time AND take a lot of damage).

Techers need to have the highest damage output with the least amount of defense.

And fighters need to be doing less damage than they are now, but for the love of God, let us be able to survive being attacked. They also need some kind of pulling ability to attract monsters away from the gunners and techers.

[xBladeM6x]

Either nerf the F*** out of fighters and a some from gunners or buff the hell out of techers. Techers should be doing the most damage out of any other class hands down according to every other RPG lol
I feel like a broken record, but all that needs to happen is techers be able to hit the amount of targets on a single monster that their Ra- Spells will let them. Everytime it's casted, It would be like a mini jabroga. It would put Techers back at the top, or close to to the top of the food chain.

[DreXxiN]

I think the only balancing that needs to be done - and this is probably me being the only one here who thinks it might be anything of a good idea - is the rangers, and not even anything stat-wise. All they need to do is make it so that 2-handed guns could have two different PAs assigned to them. They wouldn't fire both at once (since that'd be somewhat stupid and pointless, except for leveling purposes), but you could assign one to the primary attack button and the other to the "special" attack button, so that way you're prepared to bust out another element (or effect) when you need it, as opposed to either switching guns or going through your menus to change it.

The other option would be to make guns have an extremely weak melee attack that couldn't combo (thus no Just Attack), but would be used mainly to refill a bit of PP for the gun. Again, something only for the 2-handed guns.

Like I said, this might just be me who thinks this might be something cool for them to implement in an expansion further down the road. I know it'd be pointless and a lot easier to either just have a second gun handy, or to use a charger to refill your weapon, but sometimes there are those people who like a bit of style in their play, or who are extremely extremely cheap and save those for the "big things", like boss fights, timed events, or just having some for the guy who's healing your sorry butt every 30 seconds.

Still, you have to admit, seeing someone smack the butt of their Shigga Desta into a Vahra's face has got to be entertaining on some level, or maybe someone Cannonwhipping Mother Brain with a Meteor Cannon? And the front of the Blackbull looks like it already has something of a bayonet on the front of it.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/images/games/xbox/halo_2/halo_2_003.jpg

[Cujo]

I only read the first page so i'm sorry if someone already said this but... I think you all need to stop your whining and just play the game. Sure the classes need a little rebalancing, but you guys make it seem like you want a total overhaul of the game. Seriously. The classes are pretty well rounded as is. Fortefighter can use more weapons and is stronger then Fighmaster, that's why fighmaster is FASTER, plus their skills go to 50 so they kinda even out, They also have the higher pp cost for skills. Master techer, weaker then Fortetecher, faster, skills, pp blah blah blah, same can be said of gunmaster to fortegunner. Protransers are just fine the way they are, ya know why... TRAPS. Protransers are meant to use traps, thats why they are the only ones who can use the best ones. Wartechers... O.K. You got me there. My point is, it does actually all work out to be pretty well balanced.
Holy crap, that is propbably one of my longest posts ever. And sorry about the rant.

[Calsetes]

If they made something like a Charm Shot for handguns, then Fortefighters could tank... kind of, if they had more DFP, possibly some EVA, and a consistent hit rate on the Charm effect for the bullets.

But for that to happen, like I said, they'd need to increase DFP, and make a whole new bullet skill for handguns.

[Calsetes]

Eh, I never was a big fan of Halo. Plus, tell me you never wanted to smack someone with a giant laser cannon when it was out of PP at that critical moment. But hey, to each his own.

[Rayokarna]

I would personally give all techers and gunners Makoto's SA1 from SF: 3rd Strike and I dont think they will complain after they do such a high rate of stun damage.

Or the can just make Jabroga miss. Which ever one they prefer.

[Emgro]

The only reason to play Wartecher is melee plus Resta. The only reasons to play Guntecher are S crossbows and melee plus Resta. Of course, the other reason is if you want to use weird combinations like S rank twin daggers, knuckles, and twin claws as the same class, but I don’t feel like counting that one.

I feel like it’s safe to say Wartecher is dead and Guntecher will die as soon as they add a class with S rank crossbows.

So apart from flavor and unlocking MasterForce, I may as well be an Acrotecher if I want to have Technics and something else?

[Garanz-Baranz]

Hmph,

For a rebalance...

Class Balance-

Fortefighter- Nothing To Change, really just fine as is.
Fortegunner- Nothing really again, perhaps add Just Attack power.
Fortetecher- Probably slightly more STA, add Just Attack power, I supose.

Fighgunner- Seems fine to me. Durability as a Fighter class might need some boost.
Guntecher- Really fine as is. A bit more ATP, and/or Just Attack power might be good.
Wartecher- Seems fine again, a bit more ATP would be apreciated. S-madoogs might be good too.

Acrotecher- Seems fine again, JA for Tech and Range might help offensive power.
Acrofighter- Seems like it needs a bit more power in some weaponry.
Protranser- Seems fine again, though it seems to be lacking some power now-a-days.

Masterforce- Seems fine, might like a B-grade handgun, Lv10 Bullet, though. JA again.
Fighmaster- Seems fine once again, but same excuse for Masterforce, it begs for a pistol.
Gunmaster- Seems fine again, but access to a B-singel Saber might help with solo-ability.

Classes don't need to be rebalanced really.

Races-
Nor with Races.

Nanoblasts need some more variety, All we have is the one type of Nanoblast with differeing stats. A different nanoblast all together would be nice.

Enemies-

Enemies serously need a boost. Defense, MST, HP, all of that needs a boost. Enemies die in short time, even on S2.

AI also needs to be rehandled. We also need some nonstandard enemies, such as teleporting or super fast moving ones lacking Techs, but use melee power. Much like the PSO Delsaber was, or the Delbiter, or even the dreaded Ill Gill.

We also need to BOOST Boss power, and eliminate some of their weaknesses, such as Adahna Degahna's "Backspot" weakness that is no where near stat wise, but general AI wise. Boss AI also needs to be boosted, increasing reaction speed, and increasing general Speed and Power.

For example, the easiest of Bosses, the Dragon's, need to be boosted so that the De Ragan and Zoalgoug have something to fight for, unstead of dying in seconds. Have them quake when foes are near, and fly when foes are far, and generally sweep the tail as foes are in the rear, increase head movement speed, and attack speed, increase blast radius on breath attacks. That general stuff that needs to be boosted.

Certainly not for C and B, but a gradual boost at A, S, and a finishing boost at S2, and mabye a Speed increase at S3. but more power seriously, more power and HP.

Thats All i'm gonna say for now.

[RemiusTA]

I think this is the only RPG where the classes that are the hardest to die are the most powerful and the classes that die the easiest do the least damage >>

Techers need to do WAY more damage.

Well, Yes, and no.

This would be my approach to balancing forces. Sega needs to and/or --

1) Add on to the base damage of spells as they change form. Lv21 Rafoie is almost identical to lv 30 Rafoie in damage, save for perhaps 100-150 points of damage, output that is nowhere CLOSE to the input of time towards leveling it in the first place. On top of that, some idiot decided to give different element spells different Base attack powers, when they all do the same thing, rendering some technics (hello barta) completely useless.


2) Damage that isnt so linear, please? As my spells level up, its pretty pathetic that they do the EXACT same thing as they did at level 1. As they get into the Lv 11+ range they should start flinching, and towards the 21+ range they should start knocking down and blowing away...Because its REALLY lame that forces have no way of keeping safe. Gi spells should be specifically for blowing targets away from you if they get too close. Rafoie is an explosion -- it should blow things up. Rabarta drops icebergs on you -- it should knock things down. Radiga forces a FLAMING ROCK to jet from the earth -- it should knock things upwards...Razonde is a fucking bolt of lightning, it should, at LEAST, stop things. If you arent gonna improve the damage, you should at least make us feel like we're doing the shit we're doing by not letting enemies walk through our laggy VFX fests.



3) for the same reasons mentioned in #2, REMOVE THE TARGET LIMITORS. Fucking seriously. This was the absolute dumbest and biggest downfall of Forces being useful in this game. I can see them putting a limit on the amount of targets a SWORD can slash through. However, me setting off an explosion with a 200 foot blast radius in a crowd full of enemies and only hitting 3 is fucking retarded. Forces lost their ability to control ANYTHING on the battlefield once their AoE spells stopped being AoE spells.




Bottom line is, If you arent going to increase the damage, then stop being so stingy with the attributes. You do NOT have to increase damage EVERY TIME to balance something, SEGA. This is not an arguement of DAMAGE, its an arguement of EFFECTIVENESS. Jarboga is an EFFECTIVE skil that does extremely high damage with a large radius and a high number of targets. Majjara is an EFFECTIVE skill that does decent damage, but with high mobility and an absurd number of hits. Nosdiga is an EFFECTIVE spell, that does okay damage, but can hit up to 3 times back to back each with a chance to stun.


Techincs, on the other hand, only do damage (medicore at that), with an occasional (as in less than 30%.) chance of inflicting status effects. THATS where the problem lies, and THATS what i believe they need to fix.

So yes, they need a damage upgrade, but not one that increase 1500 damage to 3500 damage. Its pretty obvious Forces were ment to do cumulative damage instead of BIG NUMBAR damage. Instead of simply beefing up their overall damage, they should improve on what makes them useful.

[Majarra]

Enemies & bosses need brains. thats all.