Master Classes NEED ADJUSTING?

[SupaHype]

This has been a complaint since they started. Im a masterforce level 148. SEGA THESE CLASSES NEED ADJUSTING BAD. WHY IS A FORCE LEVEL 10 MORE POWERFUL IN ALMOST ALL STATS THAN A MASTERFORCE 10. You have to know that this is a problem. I know that you have hear the complaints. I have been playing this game since the demo in 2006. I have been playing PSO since Dreamcast, and collect your systems from Master System forward. I am personally trying to be optimistic but look at the stat comparison below.

MasterForce 10

HP 1716
ATP 447
ATA 266
TP 2146
DFP 189
EVP 553
MST 1118
STA 9

Force 10
HP 2040
ATP 645
ATA 406
TP 2037
DFP 219
EVP 911
MST 713
STA 12

Fortetecher 20
HP 2539
ATP 645
ATA 439
TP 2665
DFP 175
EVP 1139
MST 1165
STA 12

When you look at these Sega is it really beneficial to switch to master.... I get level 50 attack spell visual bonus (thats all because my level 40 fortetecher attacks still do significantly more damage, even if you add acrotecher buffs to them). I understand that my Fortetecher is at 20, but will the 10 Masterforce levels really close the gap that much. I currently have LESS THAN HALF THE EVASION OF FORTETECHER 20 AND ALMOST 400 POINTS LESS THAN FORCE 10. LETS NOT EVEN TALK ABOUT THE LEVEL 10 BUFFS... People in a party dont even stop to get buffs anymore. The running in game joke about lev 10 buffs is that its like having a bowl of cereal in the morning....These should be 20 or 30. A Gun or Wartecher should not have higher buffs than a MASTER. Also, the Fortetecher classes got a 10 level boost in buffs to 40. Then MasterForce gets lev 10??? is this fair Sega, does this make sense. It doesnt feel that way.

Sega, PLEASE HEAVILY ADJUST/BALANCE THIS CLASS. I HAVE NOT PLAYED WITH 1 MASTERFORCE THAT HAS NOT COMPLAINED HEAVILY ABOUT THE CLASS. Even with 6 of my attack spells over level 40, i am still considering just switching back to my maxed out fortetecher class. It truly is more powerful regardless of what i have seen others write in message boards. I play this out every day. (Diga 40-4000+ attacks to Diga 42 3100+). Sega i pray that you fix this. We who put so many hours into your game and pay every month to live out this phantasy are looking to move forward after our years of play. Not laterally backwards.

I speak for most here when i say that we love your game but it gets difficult to want to continue to live out this Phantasy when so many things keep being done in a displeasing way. I have paid $320 to play this game over the past 2 years, ($60 for the game, i kept the reciept, & $260 for the monthly fees) I dont want to pay for something that continues to frustrate me. PLEASE FIX THIS AND THE OTHER ISSUES REGARDING THIS GAME SEGA. I WANT TO CONTINUE TO PLAY BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE SOME CHANGES.

SUPAHYPE
GLOW 148 NEWMAN
www.SupaMusicNetwork.com

[Pillan]

30 levels of tech, 30% increase in implicit element, S rank equipment versus B rank, and a speed bonus. You do realize how much more power that adds up to, right?

[Danny_Dark]

I don't think this will Happen...Sorry...

[Xaeris]

Masterforce is superior to every other techer in offensive teching. There's no disputing that. There's nothing to be fixed within the type itself.

[DreXxiN]

OP, You forgot to mention that forces have spears and guns to shoot down rocks to solo. =P

[Kylie]

30 levels of tech, 30% increase in implicit element, S rank equipment versus B rank, and a speed bonus. You do realize how much more power that adds up to, right?Indeed. I think a lot of people expected the master classes to be all-powerful, and they're disappointed that that turned out not to be the case. It's still a good class with all the bonuses. From what I've seen though, I do think MF needs a little tweaking in its stats, but that might be because I haven't seen one fully leveled yet.

[Smidge204]

Base stat modifiers for:

Fortetecher 20:
HP 112%
ATP 70%
ATA 80%
TP 170%
DFP 80%
EVP 200%
MST 245%
STA 100%


Masterforce 20:
HP 85%
ATP 50%
ATA 50%
TP 152%
DFP 100%
EVP 100%
MST 254%
STA 80%


Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any (accessible) info on the relative strengths of the TECHNICs. Knowing nothing else about Forces I'm inclined to agree - Masterforce is not exactly an upgrade from Fortetecher.
=Smidge=

[SupaHype]

Drex have you played as a masterforce, probably not if you are saying that.... try going from fortetecher 20 to master force then come back and reply to this. ... Why is my Higher level diga doing about 900 points less damage to the same monsters. What about the evasion that was cut in half. and loosing over 500 to 1000 HP... Please, ive been a force from day 1, there is a significant difference.

oh and explain those level 10 buffs....

If you want something to change, you can write, or do something about it. But sitting and complaining wont help.

[JAFO22000]

People in a party dont even stop to get buffs anymore. The running in game joke about lev 10 buffs is that its like having a bowl of cereal in the morning....


What's the punchline here....????

AAANNNNDDD, why don't you just go back to playing FT instead of complaining about things? I actually have seen my solo run times go faster as a MF than a FT. Even though your techs may do less damage, getting them out faster makes all the difference. Also, Ra- techs at 41+ hit 5 enemies (at least Radiga does!).

[DreXxiN]

IM SUPA SERIOUSSSSSSSSSSSS FORCE IS BETTER FOR SOLO MANGGGGGG

On a serious note, I'm REALLY happy these master classes didn't turn out to be "OMG SUPER BROKEN" like everyone expected them to be.

Therefore, people will filter out of them as soon as they feel their MP isn't wasted, and we'll have a greater balance of diverse classes soon down the line.

[amtalx]

To all who are complaining about Master Class stats:

Compare your Advanced Class Lv.20 with LV.40 PAs to your Master Class Lv.20 with LV.50 PAs. If you are doing anything less, please STFU. Its a statistically flawed comparison.

[SupaHype]

Dont you find it a little more difficult to solo missions with the HP drop, the 50% evasion drop and weaker spells JAF... I know that im not the only 1 feeling like this. When you something for a long time, just as im sure that you have, Dont you want to move forward at some point.... Does this MF class feel like your moving forward. AAAANNNNNDDD if the update comes when they bring the spell visuals down to 31 due to the graphical issues people complain about, No one will even see Your/My/Our beautiful level 41 spells. But thats another argument. I have 17 (( 13 are over 31, 6 are over 41)) attack spells that I use regularly (not on disks in my pm at home but i carry them on 6 rods all equipped). They are all weaker, its bigger than just 1 spell class.

And this "Complaint" Makes the game better for everyone, not just me... unless you really feel like this class is well balanced.... do you??

[Cracka_J]

T_T more.

I enjoy reading all the negative feedback from people who can't play the class efficiently.

[SupaHype]

Amtalx ill take that one.... what you said makes sense.... but trust me, its not looking good so far and im half way there, MF 10... But AMtalx, shouldnt a masterforce 20 with level 45 spells be stronger than a fortetecher 20 with level 40 spells, The sad thing is i dont think the numbers will add up. I dont know, or have not known any player who had All their spells MAXED out ever during this game, do you... And Drex, have you really said anything worth while yet.... im looking to fix an issue, not just be silly. What level and class are your Characters Drex.

[Calsetes]

I usually tend to stay away from "magical" classes. Most games I've played people complain about them because:

1. They don't have enough defense / health / vitality / evasion and die too easily.

B. They're not strong enough against whatever they want to fight, just because they can't kill them with one spell.

III. Their awesome mage can't heal themselves, their priest can't cast the spell "SUPREME DARKNESS INSTAKILL LEVEL ONE BILLION!", their hybrid mage can't do anything as supremely awesomely as someone who picked to specialize in one or the other.

d.) Magic has stuff resistant to it, and it shouldn't. Because it's magic. It damages things magically, and how do you defend against something magically? With magical defense? Only things that can do tons of damage magically should be able to protect themselves from their own magical attacks (see e.)).

Paragraph 5, section 8, line 3. Mages don't do enough magic damage to other mages, and take too much damage from other mages' spells.


It's pretty much the same in all the MMOs I played, and it's for every class, not just mages. The classes people play usually complain that they're not powerful enough because they play them. I know this isn't quite the same as something like.... Warcraft, or Final Fantasy, or Everquest, or Ultima Online. I play a melee class usually. If I didn't like the melee class I picked, I either remake the guy into a different class, or change his job into a class that's more interesting to me, or just go play something else entirely.

I know it sounds like I'm saying "deal with it." I pretty much am. If you're not finding the Maserforce job appealing, liek a few others have said, go back to Fortetecher. Don't kill yourself for the sake of saying "I'm a Masterforce!" I made my Wartecher back into a gunner because I decided claws weren't worth it, and I actually had more fun playing her as a person who shoots things. They might tweak it a bit later on, and if so, then try it out at that time.

[JAFO22000]

Dont you find it a little more difficult to solo missions with the HP drop, the 50% evasion drop and weaker spells JAF... I know that im not the only 1 feeling like this. When you something for a long time, just as im sure that you have, Dont you want to move forward at some point.... Does this MF class feel like your moving forward. AAAANNNNNDDD if the update comes when they bring the spell visuals down to 31 due to the graphical issues people complain about, No one will even see Your/My/Our beautiful level 41 spells. But thats another argument. I have 17 (( 13 are over 31, 6 are over 41)) attack spells that I use regularly (not on disks in my pm at home but i carry them on 6 rods all equipped). They are all weaker, its bigger than just 1 spell class.

And this "Complaint" Makes the game better for everyone, not just me... unless you really feel like this class is well balanced.... do you??


Please remember that Masterforce is NOT the next evolution of the force class, as Fortetecher was the next evolution of Force.

These classes were NOT intended to replace any of the other classes, rather they give players a choice.

Masterforce will end up being able to deal more damage than a FT when both are leveled equally, partly due to the elemental and TECH boost of level 50 techs vs. level 40 techs AND due to the added speed with which a MF can cast (please note that damage isn't everything; sometimes the ability to keep a group of creatures from moving due to a technique being able to cast quickly enough more than makes up for an additional 100-200 points of damage.

It seems, however, that you are a "big numbers" sort of player who only cares about the end damage number. You should really just stay as a FT and be done with it. Nothing is forcing (no pun intended) you to play as a MF. MF does not make FT any worse. If anything, FT got even BETTER with the introduction of level 40 buffs.

[mvffin]

the only complaint I have about MF is the low HP and the extreme Lag from spell casting. Techers have always been lower DPS than guns or melee; I always thought that was because they could buff and heal. But now MF with its level 10 s/upport still pales in DPS to FM/GM.

to sum up: Gib more HP, option to turn spell effects OFF and do some kind of TP boost or PA% boost on techs.

[amtalx]

Its no mystery that MF got the short end of the stick (while GM got the long end). However, everyone seems to forget about the speed increase. I do less damage per shot as a GM than I did as a fG, but even though my class and bullets aren't maxed yet, I still kill enemies faster because of the speed increase.

[JAFO22000]

the only complaint I have about MF is the low HP and the extreme Lag from spell casting. Techers have always been lower DPS than guns or melee; I always thought that was because they could buff and heal. But now MF with its level 10 s/upport still pales in DPS to FM/GM.

to sum up: Gib more HP, option to turn spell effects OFF and do some kind of TP boost or PA% boost on techs.

??

Even with a level 10 Resta, I still heal for 1700+ per cast which is more than enough to fully heal myself and my 1600+ HP. In fact, one cast of the resta is usually good enough to heal anyone out of danger long enough for them to use a mate or for me to cast Resta again.

The only thing I miss is the range of level 30+ Resta!!!

I can't comment on the lag issue as I have not experienced it at all. The level 41+ techs do not seem to lag for me (360 version).

[Ezodagrom]

Masterforce has lower TP than Fortetecher, so Masterforce damage will be lower...BUT Masterforce has a speed boost plus the lvl 41+ technics. With those it'll be doing more damage per second than Fortetecher.
If anything should be rebalanced, it's not only Masterforce, but all techers. Techs compared to melee and bullets are a bit weaker, maybe something like multi hit on big enemies for ra and gitechs ^^;

[JAFO22000]

Its no mystery that MF got the short end of the stick (while GM got the long end). However, everyone seems to forget about the speed increase. I do less damage per shot as a GM than I did as a fG, but even though my class and bullets aren't maxed yet, I still kill enemies faster because of the speed increase.

Don't forget to mention that MF didn't lose too much in the way of weapon selection as did the other two classes. We still can use Rods, Wands and Tech-MAGs which is really all we need. Fighmasters lost a lot of melee choices and Gunmasters lost Grenade Launchers and crossbows. The only thing MF lost were Cards and Bows and if you primarily used Cards and Bows as a FT, I'd have to question your choice of class.

[darkante]

More speed makes it easier to get hits in and less interuptions, thus more damage!
It´s an all out offensive class with no regard for safety.
Something has to be sacrificed..
Otherwise what´s the fricking point of the other magic classes?

[mvffin]

I can't comment on the lag issue as I have not experienced it at all. The level 41+ techs do not seem to lag for me (360 version).

do you solo mostly?

try playing as a melee class in a party with MF. Its terrible.

[autumn]

I currently clear stuff faster then when I did as a FT, and with greater ease and I am by no means maxed in MF. My enemies don't move to hit me ^_- Would I like my 1k of hp back that I lost, hells yeah but I'm not going to cry about it. Would I like my evade back? Yup, but bitching isn't gonna change the way it is. I am content with a techer type that doesn't keep me in a buff party for hours, make me obligated to be the buff and heal bot when in a party or else listen to the fighter-who-was-too-stupid-to-use-a-mate-so-they-died whine at me for not healing. I'll take my occasional getting one-shot killed for this, I love MF.

[Vickie]

Gunmaster seemed way better at lvl 1 than lvl 20 fortegunner and I haven't even seen how it is with a few levels more, since I got suspened till the 3rd the same day they came out with them, I'm dyin to see how it is at 20, the removal of grenade launchers for s rank twin handguns gave me a mild erection, glad they realized how damn useless they were... Dual desert eagles baby boi!!!!! (battlestopprics) and (hyper viprics).

[Kadajenova]

FT > MF because :

1) lv40 spells + lv40 buffs > lv50 spells + lv10 buffs

2) Har/smart is enough for speed boost

3) the extra speed from master+har/smart doesnt compensate the half cut evasion, the very low HP, not to count the bad END, and the PP consumption increased (from 80% to 120%)

Conclusion : if you want to die a lot just for a small speed boost, then stay MF. If you want to stay alive and if u think har/smart is enough for speed then go back to FT.

[Ezodagrom]

FT > MF because :

1) lv40 spells + lv40 buffs > lv50 spells + lv10 buffs

2) Har/smart is enough for speed boost

3) the extra speed from master+har/smart doesnt compensate the half cut evasion, the very low HP, not to count the bad END, and less MST compared to FT, and the PP consumption.

Conclusion : if you want to die a lot just for a small speed boost, then stay MF. If you want to stay alive and if u think har/smart is enough for speed then go back to FT.

MF has higher MST than FT (and also higher DFP), but...those two are kinda useless stats...^^;

[SupaHype]

Ok.. i just text my friend playing MF 20, who used to be FT 20... Her diga is doing about 300 points less at level 45 MF than it was when she played FT 20 over 4000 at level 40... im wondering what is really the benefit here.... The speed of the cast is not necessarily all that different as you dont have to hit a monster too many times with diga to kill it or too many other spells... how many seconds does it take to kill 1 beast... unless its a boss. The 50 percent evasion drop is a killer to MF. the 20 percent boost in defense helps very little, especially when they nerf your hit points by so much. why is it that we all have to spit hairs to determine the real benefits of a new class. Doesnt that mean that there is some sort of problem with it.?

[Vickie]

But wouldn't master force with the evp of a foetetecher, level 41 eva boost with orpad legs and some high 50element eva armor make ya kind of broken?

[JAFO22000]

Ok.. i just text my friend playing MF 20, who used to be FT 20... Her diga is doing about 300 points less at level 45 MF than it was when she played FT 20 over 4000 at level 40... im wondering what is really the benefit here.... The speed of the cast is not necessarily all that different as you dont have to hit a monster too many times with diga to kill it or too many other spells... how many seconds does it take to kill 1 beast... unless its a boss. The 50 percent evasion drop is a killer to MF. the 20 percent boost in defense helps very little, especially when they nerf your hit points by so much. why is it that we all have to spit hairs to determine the real benefits of a new class. Doesnt that mean that there is some sort of problem with it.?


The only one spitting hairs is you. I'm fine with the class as it is.

You say your friends Diga does 300 less. I'm assuming from your poorly structured paragraph that it did 4000 per hit as a FT and is only doing 3700 as a MF. I'm also assuming this test was done using the same gear and no buffs. 300 more per hit as a FT than a MF. Let's do a little basic number crunching here. Let's say FT does 4000 per hit, but can only get off 8 digas in 10 seconds while a MF (doing 3700 per hit) gets off 10 digas in the same time period (again, these are only estimates). 4000*8 = 32,000 every 10 seconds for a FT vs. 3700*10 = 37,000 every 10 seconds for a MF. Using these unscientific numbers for demonstration purposes only, you can see that a MF would do 5000 more with diga over the same time period.

[Ezodagrom]

Ok.. i just text my friend playing MF 20, who used to be FT 20... Her diga is doing about 300 points less at level 45 MF than it was when she played FT 20 over 4000 at level 40... im wondering what is really the benefit here.... The speed of the cast is not necessarily all that different as you dont have to hit a monster too many times with diga to kill it or too many other spells... how many seconds does it take to kill 1 beast... unless its a boss. The 50 percent evasion drop is a killer to MF. the 20 percent boost in defense helps very little, especially when they nerf your hit points by so much. why is it that we all have to spit hairs to determine the real benefits of a new class. Doesnt that mean that there is some sort of problem with it.?

In the time Fortetecher does 3 Diga, a Masterforce can do 4.
So...if FT would do 4300 per hit and MF 4000 per hit:
FT: 4300x3=12900
MF: 4000x4=16000

And the more techs they do, the difference gets bigger.
Another thing, it's also easier for a group of enemies (like a group of Booma) to get closer to a fortetecher than to a masterforce, since their movement will be interrupted more times with a masterforce due to the higher tech speed.

EDIT: JAFO22000 made an example like this before me ^^;

[SupaHype]

MF has higher MST than FT (and also higher DFP), but...those two are kinda useless stats...^^;

Thank you Ezodagrom. Do you guys, who have actually played this class really feel like this MF class doesnt need adjusting?

[Sexy_Raine]

Masterforce got the shaft when compared to FM and GM. Gunmaster did not sacrifice anything near as much Masterforce did, and still does more damage with less effort.

I agree with TC, MF was made poorly. I'll be retiring it once I have everything to 50, and bandwagon to Gunmaster until it gets fixed.

[Ezodagrom]

Thank you Ezodagrom. Do you guys, who have actually played this class really feel like this MF class doesnt need adjusting?

Comparing to Fortetecher and Acrotecher, I think Masterforce is kinda fine. Maybe could have a little more HP, but none of the techer classes replaces the other.
In my opinion, it's all techer classes that should be adjusted. Something like giving ra and gitechs multihit on big enemies and bosses would make not only the techer classes strong when compared to gunners and hunters, but also would make Masterforce quite a bit better than Fortetecher for bosses like De Ragan, since Masterforce would hit it on 5 parts instead of 4.

I haven't tried MF yet though...I want to try it sometime, but was a bit lazy to lvl up WT and also been having problems playing PSU since friday...always lagging and getting disconnected >.<

[SupaHype]

In the time Fortetecher does 3 Diga, a Masterforce can do 4.
So...if FT would do 4300 per hit and MF 4000 per hit:
FT: 4300x3=12900
MF: 4000x4=16000

And the more techs they do, the difference gets bigger.
Another thing, it's also easier for a group of enemies (like a group of Booma) to get closer to a fortetecher than to a masterforce, since their movement will be interrupted more times with a masterforce due to the higher tech speed.

EDIT: JAFO22000 made an example like this before me ^^;

I see what yours saying but MF doesnt hit 4000 with Diga, while FT gets real close to 4300. More like 3700 vs 4200

4200x3= 12600 (FT 20 Diga Lev 40)
3700x4= 14400 (MF 20 Diga Lev 45)

Oh, add to this that the FT is level 140 vs the MF is level 150.... These are real stats...

keep in mind that this is under the assumption that you do not have to stop and move while attacking the monster. And if the monster attacks you, you have 50% more chance of getting hit than evading the attack than before. Yes you will take 20% less damage. But with about 30% less hit points that wont make a difference.

[SupaHype]

Comparing to Fortetecher and Acrotecher, I think Masterforce is kinda fine. Maybe could have a little more HP, but none of the techer classes replaces the other.
In my opinion, it's all techer classes that should be adjusted. Something like giving ra and gitechs multihit on big enemies and bosses would make not only the techer classes strong when compared to gunners and hunters, but also would make Masterforce quite a bit better than Fortetecher for bosses like De Ragan, since Masterforce would hit it on 5 parts instead of 4.

I haven't tried MF yet though...I want to try it sometime, but was a bit lazy to lvl up WT and also been having problems playing PSU since friday...always lagging and getting disconnected >.<

OK... Hey, when you switch to MF come find me in the game. My Gamertag is SupaHype and my Char name is Glow 148 newman F..... you will understand what im talking about after you do. The stats are bad, but arguable, but play as the Char and you will understand what i am saying. its unbalanced...it needs work..

[Ezodagrom]

OK... Hey, when you switch to MF come find me in the game. My Gamertag is SupaHype and my Char name is Glow 148 newman F..... you will understand what im talking about after you do. The stats are bad, but arguable, but play as the Char and you will understand what i am saying. its unbalanced...it needs work..
I'm on pc/ps2 ^^;

[SupaHype]

The only one spitting hairs is you. I'm fine with the class as it is.

You say your friends Diga does 300 less. I'm assuming from your poorly structured paragraph that it did 4000 per hit as a FT and is only doing 3700 as a MF. I'm also assuming this test was done using the same gear and no buffs. 300 more per hit as a FT than a MF. Let's do a little basic number crunching here. Let's say FT does 4000 per hit, but can only get off 8 digas in 10 seconds while a MF (doing 3700 per hit) gets off 10 digas in the same time period (again, these are only estimates). 4000*8 = 32,000 every 10 seconds for a FT vs. 3700*10 = 37,000 every 10 seconds for a MF. Using these unscientific numbers for demonstration purposes only, you can see that a MF would do 5000 more with diga over the same time period.

Ok JAF... tell me This... what damage is your Diga doing now that you are an MF vs what it was doing before as a FT. Im assuming that you have leveled it higher than it was before. Do you feel like your Char is better than you were before? im also assuming that you were a FT 20. And JAF.... YOU ARE REALLY FINE WITH THIS CLASS??? YOU DONT THINK ITS A LITTLE "NERFED" COMPARED TO FT OR EVEN AT, that 50% evasion cut didnt bother you. What about that HP drop.... you let me know. lol

[SupaHype]

I'm on pc/ps2 ^^;

:) DARN... ok we will talk later on the boards...

[Ezodagrom]

The only stat I think that should be higher on Masterforce is HP, something like 95% mod at lvl 20 instead of 85%. Fighmaster also has lower stats compared to Fortefighter.
But then there's Gunmaster...the HP mod is only 6% lower than Fortegunner, ATP mod is 4% lower and then there's the 20% more ATA and the speed boost...
The only reason for anyone to play Fortegunner is the grenade launcher, since the stats are so close (except EVP)...

[amtalx]

I think some people are forgetting that the Master Classes aren't meant to replace the Advanced Classes. Master Classes need to have their cons like lame EVP so that you won't have 3 universes of 3 classes.

[JAFO22000]

Ok JAF... tell me This... what damage is your Diga doing now that you are an MF vs what it was doing before as a FT. Im assuming that you have leveled it higher than it was before. Do you feel like your Char is better than you were before? im also assuming that you were a FT 20. And JAF.... YOU ARE REALLY FINE WITH THIS CLASS??? YOU DONT THINK ITS A LITTLE "NERFED" COMPARED TO FT OR EVEN AT, that 50% evasion cut didnt bother you. What about that HP drop.... you let me know. lol

I have no idea "what damage my Diga is doing now" because I really don't have the time to test it out. In fact, I'm not making a single decision about MF until I get it up to 20. I will then play a few runs as FT and then the same few runs as MF and see which ones I like better. As for Diga, it does "enough" damage for me.

As it stands now, I am a level 5 MF vs. a long time level 20 FT. I am dying a bit more as a MF, but I assume that is only because it's level 5 right now AND I am still learning how to use the class.

To tell you the truth, I don't know if I'm "fine" with this class or not right now. Again, I will hold all opinions until I get it maxed out.

I can't really give you an answer on whether I think it's a "nerfed" class or not until I max it out and have a good month of playing time with it.

As for the evasion, I try not to be in a position to get hit anyway so it does not really bother me. In a sense, I have to go back to my playstyle that I used before Forte classes came out and I was a force: Stand back to attack, then run away when things get close. I mean, you just have to adjust with what is given to you.

HP drop always sucks, but again I withhold judgement until I get MF to 20. If the HP difference at that point is greater than 300 or so, then we have a problem. If they are within a few hundred points of each other, what's the big deal? 2500 HP vs 2200 HP isn't really a big deal.

To close, the moral of this post is that I can't make a rational decision about this class until I have spent time with it. A 5 minute test drive of a new car will only tell you so much about it; spend 30 days with a car and you will have a better understanding of just how comfortable/fast/fuel efficient it really is.

[Ezodagrom]

According to psupedia:
Level 140 Fortetecher 20 Female Newman HP: 2431
Level 140 Masterforce 20 Female Newman HP: 1791
The difference is 640 HP

According to jp psu wiki:
Level 170 Fortetecher 20 Female Newman HP: 2833
Level 170 Masterforce 20 Female Newman HP: 2087
The difference is 746 HP

I guess Masterforce HP is a "bit" too low x.x

[ashley50]

MF is fine as it is...You can't have everything just cause its called a "master" Class.

[RemiusTA]

MF is fine as it is...You can't have everything just cause its called a "master" Class.

I think the overall arguement is, for what they lose, they should be far better.

MF is fine to me, but Forces in general arent. For what MF loses in HP, it gains in speed, and the speed increases the overall damage capabilities.

Problem is however, Forces in general lose more HP than they gain in power. If Forces were more effective than they are now, MF would be more effective. I mean without a psycho wand, capped spells, capped gear and a capped character.

For a Fortefighter to match a Fortetecher in effectiveness, the fortefighter needs not even a fraction of the effort.

IMO, MF should have been lower speed, lower HP, and nothing but raw power. Increased speed really doesnt help most people, as Forces in general (espically on PS2) are weakened by the fact that the system lags, severely lowering their DPS.

[Pillan]

Before you complain about Masterforce ask yourself the following questions:

- Have you gotten your techniques to level 50 and the class to level 20?
- Have you taken advantage of the fact that they can equip Pushan instead of Shato?
- Have you noticed that the Ra-series gains an extra target? Or that the Dam-series gains 20% TP? This is in addition to an extra 10% element.
- Have you ever been touched by a medium or small mob when you weren’t doing something stupid?
- Have you ever been touched by a boss when you weren’t doing something stupid?
- Has anything besides Bil De Bear clones and Megid killed you? (Svaltus, SEED Ardite, Grina Bete, etc.)

Once you’ve answered that, maybe you’d realize that yes, despite the buff level difference, Masterforce does more damage and that no, despite the low stats, Masterforce doesn’t die unless you do something stupid or get chased down by something that can jump.

(Note that Foie and Diga have the worst growth from 40-50, so those are not good power reference techs.)

[Scarlett]

I'm tired of getting kick out of parties playing my MF because of the extreme visual effects and assumed lag that allot of people have been complaining about.

Playing as a FM I can understand there point of view, It's really hard to SEE the creatures at times when I'm fighting them. feels like I'm on a acid trip~

I bet saga is going to Nerf the visuals soon; to everyone in the party except to the one who's casting spells.

[biggabertha]

Before you complain about Masterforce ask yourself the following questions:

- Have you gotten your techniques to level 50 and the class to level 20?
- Have you taken advantage of the fact that they can equip Pushan instead of Shato?
- Have you noticed that the Ra-series gains an extra target? Or that the Dam-series gains 20% TP? This is in addition to an extra 10% element.
- Have you ever been touched by a medium or small mob when you weren’t doing something stupid?
- Have you ever been touched by a boss when you weren’t doing something stupid?
- Has anything besides Bil De Bear clones and Megid killed you? (Svaltus, SEED Ardite, Grina Bete, etc.)

Once you’ve answered that, maybe you’d realize that yes, despite the buff level difference, Masterforce does more damage and that no, despite the low stats, Masterforce doesn’t die unless you do something stupid or get chased down by something that can jump.

(Note that Foie and Diga have the worst growth from 40-50, so those are not good power reference techs.)

and


To all who are complaining about Master Class stats:

Compare your Advanced Class Lv.20 with LV.40 PAs to your Master Class Lv.20 with LV.50 PAs. If you are doing anything less, please STFU. Its a statistically flawed comparison.

These two posts are just so true.

Sure, there's lots to complain about with the class but when you consider the mindset of the majority of Force players.... Masterforce is REALLY suited for them.

How many times have anyone been where a Techer type class only uses selected buffs? Like JUST Shifta and Deband but neither of the other two? Or uses JUST Megistar? Doesn't use Resta, Reverser or Giresta? It's happened a lot to me and I'm fairly sure that there are several players who play with the mindset:

"I won't get EXP if I don't hit the enemies - spending time to chase people down and buff them is so not how I want to play!"


It's typical people would complain about the other end of the stick.

So unfair when people compare a half leveled class with a full leveled one.

Or part maxed stats to fully maxed stats.



The only part I'm complaining about the Master classes is their name...

Maybe something like "Focused Fighter" or whatever would have been fine but a Master does indeed imply the complete dominance over what they're paired with.

*Shrugs*

Whatever though, I'll still play them.

Everyone complained about Guntecher's Lv. 10 TECHNICs too... man.... Sega's SO going to listen to people and give Masterforce Lv. 30 buffs... ugh....

[Powder Keg]

Hardly any of those other stats matter, since the only thing that MF can do is cast.

They're fine. You don't want them to be overpowered.

[unicorn]

FM is fine
GM is very fine
MF is fun but as an offensive type, it has nothing over FF, FG, FM, GM, FI, AF, PT, and AT.

Its kinda retarded how badly gimped techers are with defense AND damage. Theres no reason to be a techer (MF/FT) besides fun. Techers used to do AoE damage, but fighters do that better now. They suck at anything that has more than one target. SEs aren't reliable enough. I could go on.

We won't even be able to blind people soon.

[Sexy_Raine]

*sigh* people who say their fine the way they are have never played one. It pretty much pointless vs. the other 2 master classes. why do we have the weakest defense stats with no support, and don't even do the best offense?

Gunmaster is huge step up from it's forte- counterpart. It doesn't sacrifice anywhere near as much as FT -> MF.There's really no point of MF in a speed run party, might as well make it 6 Gunmasters.

[stukasa]

I think MF could use a little more HP. super_luu is right that it's not fair for techers to have less HP and do less damage than fighters. I'm having a lot of fun with my MF though, despite the low HP. I do damage a lot faster than I did as a fT.

[_K1_]

MF is for team playing, sort of like how pre-AoI PT was. Once most people get it to 20, people will switch between FT (for soloing) and MF (for partying).

AT is a whole nother kettle of fish, and people who enjoy support (myself included) will continue to play and enjoy that class, as it is unparalleled in it's niche. Personally, I love playing in PUGs with MFs... my 41+ buffs and giresta keep them at the top of their game, and I know they appreciate seeing exactly how much damage they can do with top-tier buffs.

I only hope that master classes drive home the fact that blaming a MF for not using buffs or resta is as pointless as blaming a Fighmaster, Fortefighter, Fortegunner, or any other class for not using sols or star atomizers. A purely offensive techer, with no obligation for support (just like gunners and melee'ers had no obligation for support) is just what this game needed. It also makes ATs, FTs, as well as GTs, and WTs that much more valuable.


The only part I'm complaining about the Master classes is their name...

Maybe something like "Focused Fighter" or whatever would have been fine but a Master does indeed imply the complete dominance over what they're paired with. The same is true of 'Forte'-classes though, even though they don't get all the S-ranks or the highest-level PAs in their class (eg, FG with twin handguns and mechguns, or FTs with support techs and S rank madoogs). We all thought they'd be the very best, until they got released, anyway.


Gunmaster is huge step up from it's forte- counterpart. It doesn't sacrifice anywhere near as much as FT -> MF.There's really no point of MF in a speed run party, might as well make it 6 Gunmasters.Same as FT and FG back in the day. Remember 1UP and MAG and CAST FG only parties? Yeah, things haven't changed at all. MF, like FT, will just have to accept that we won't do the best damage, but rather enjoy the play style. Not ideal, but I don't expect Sega to make anything more balanced.

[Shou]

With the damage that techers do in PSU they should have 3x the amount of HP they have now to balance things out :etongue:

[Kazemi]

so many people complain about how much tech damage sucks yet they fail to take into consideration that techs never miss. meanwhile melee and ranged attacks can miss quite often (unless its broken jabroga) unless the player doesn't face the enemy head on. so a techer can just stay in the back and nuke everything without ever having to worry about missing (unless their aim sucks). not too shabby really. then you take into consideration the high level of SEs that MF gains with many tier 5 techs and MF arguably rivals the gunner jobs at being the best SE layers (hell, even FT is great at laying down SEs). but i guess most people can only judge damage by how large the BIG NUMBARZ are. guess that's why people are comparing diga here? how often do you really even use that tech? i sure hope its not that often...

at least its finally starting to sink in that the master jobs are just that and not "god jobs." it would seem that ST intended these jobs more for the hardcore players that want the most power they can get out of a combat type. such players will understand how to make the best out of the limitations of the jobs to get the best performance. on top of being able to do what it takes such as maxed job level, maxed out PA levels, decent S gears, know how of the battle type, etc. as it has been mentioned many times already, masters aren't the end all types and aren't meant for everyone (by a long shot).

[Magus_84]

so many people complain about how much tech damage sucks yet they fail to take into consideration that techs never miss. meanwhile melee and ranged attacks can miss quite often (unless its broken jabroga) unless the player doesn't face the enemy head on. so a techer can just stay in the back and nuke everything without ever having to worry about missing (unless their aim sucks). not too shabby really. then you take into consideration the high level of SEs that MF gains with many tier 5 techs and MF arguably rivals the gunner jobs at being the best SE layers (hell, even FT is great at laying down SEs). but i guess most people can only judge damage by how large the BIG NUMBARZ are. guess that's why people are comparing diga here? how often do you really even use that tech? i sure hope its not that often...

at least its finally starting to sink in that the master jobs are just that and not "god jobs." it would seem that ST intended these jobs more for the hardcore players that want the most power they can get out of a combat type. such players will understand how to make the best out of the limitations of the jobs to get the best performance. on top of being able to do what it takes such as maxed job level, maxed out PA levels, decent S gears, know how of the battle type, etc. as it has been mentioned many times already, masters aren't the end all types and aren't meant for everyone (by a long shot).

I fully agree with your second paragraph. For the first, though...SEs have become less and less useful as fighter/gunner damage has proportionally increased against enemy HP. Even with the SEs available on tier 5 techs.

Attack-preventing statii (Shock/Freeze/Stun/Confuse/Silence etc) are mainly useful when soloing, as in a team they're trumped by either a PT's presence with EX traps or the hefty helpings of death to enemies.

Damaging SEs (Burn/Virus/lolPoison) typically pale in comparison to outright damage.

I'd imagine that if enemies either get a lot more lethal (example: PSO, Episode 2) or take drastic jumps in durability, SEs will be more useful then. If not, they're more a token compensation for giving up more MASSIVE DAMAGE.

And I say this as a player who originally went GT for the multitude of available SE options. :(

[Finae]

Oh, I like to think of FM as "the god job" :P. After playing FM for so long, I wanted to see how it was like on FF again and I couldn't take how slow they are. I even partied as one in a group and the FMs made look a bit retarded even with all that high % gear of mine :P.

As for MF, I am on the original posters side + whoever else that agrees with him / somewhat agrees with him.

1. When it comes to a TA event or speed run group, MF will slow the group down
2. Most will take a FT or AT over a MF due to buffs
3. Since the visual tech nerf update has not came yet, most will choose any other class than mf to be in their party.
4. Would you purposely stay a MF while doing your runs for w/e item while your other class can do the mission faster?
5. Most people care about mission run times and a party of 6x MF at seed express for example is not going to beat 6x GM or 6x FM or any other melee/ranged combo mainly lol (Tho 6 PT = lol).

Its like I and others stated long ago, MF is one of the worst classes in the game (Sorry, I still think GT is the worst of all lol). Its absolutely hopeless to compete vs a melee and thats one of many reasons why long long ago, I dropped FT and sold my 6 pwands.

The rest can continue to believe they can compete, but its impossible (even with 10/10 pwands lol). I actually had a MF complaining today about not being able to hit mobs at all cause me (On my beast FM at the time) and this other FF would just destroy everything in less than a second (at seed). MF cannot destroy crap like that in seconds which is another reason why MF wouldn't be good on TA event / speed run.

FT vs MF.....I did state long ago on official forums that the FT would end up winning in dmg, but mf in dps despite the minor gain. When I tried out MF, I was not impressed with the speed increase.

But yes, FT and MF are a party playing class and not really solo playing. I always played FT in groups and rarely ever soloed because my melee or ranged could do it faster.

And lastly........well...........suv and even nanoblast lol. They also gave melee/ranged LKK which boosts their power even more. What do they give you forces? Absolutely jack. I don't see why they couldn't overpower MF some seeing as FM is extremely overpowered despite its cons (like high pp consumption, not going to list all :P) along with other classes. I don't like the low hp myself as a MF and its really amusing to see 5 MF go down so easy at seed sometimes haha.

I will just stay AT, I enjoy that class more than anything out of the techer classes. I will lvl my techs to 50 for lolwozorz, look at my pretty techs and thats about it.

Oh one more thing.........I am so amused at the fact that I have not been kicked in a random party for what I do as a FM and all the MFs are getting booted. Just goes to show you that most people care about mission run times and not being blinded by techs :P. I don't mind, i welcome 5 MF in my party, but I will bash this class whenever. After all, its just my opinion, so lighten up ;P.

[relentless]

Well, you clearly haven't met Inazuma then. ^-^

[Powder Keg]

*sigh* people who say their fine the way they are have never played one. It pretty much pointless vs. the other 2 master classes. why do we have the weakest defense stats with no support, and don't even do the best offense?

Gunmaster is huge step up from it's forte- counterpart. It doesn't sacrifice anywhere near as much as FT -> MF.There's really no point of MF in a speed run party, might as well make it 6 Gunmasters.

I see what you're saying, but honestly I would say wait and see until you're at it's maximum potential. I seriously doubt anyone already has multiple lvl50 techs and such yet. The class sure could use more EVP since it has horrible HP, though.

[Pillan]

Does anyone besides me recall that Masterforce is the class that can pin any 5 medium or small mobs in place far away from them and pin any 8 medium or small mobs in place in front of them with absolutely no danger of missing or being harmed? I’m sorry, but a survivability advantage like that alone will be countered by a huge HP/EVP drop and a potential damage drop.

You’d be better off arguing to Sonic Team to drop Masterforce’s HP down to a 5% mod in exchange for increasing their TP such that the Gi-series rivals a Just Attacked Tornado Break in terms of damage. If you never get hit and rival the guy who’s more likely to get hit in damage, you better always die at the first hit. Adopting that sort of format to the game seems more favorable to everyone since, you know, the current theme of all the “tech damage isn’t balanced” group considers survivability useless anyway.

[Vickie]

so many people complain about how much tech damage sucks yet they fail to take into consideration that techs never miss. meanwhile melee and ranged attacks can miss quite often (unless its broken jabroga) unless the player doesn't face the enemy head on. so a techer can just stay in the back and nuke everything without ever having to worry about missing (unless their aim sucks). not too shabby really. then you take into consideration the high level of SEs that MF gains with many tier 5 techs and MF arguably rivals the gunner jobs at being the best SE layers (hell, even FT is great at laying down SEs). but i guess most people can only judge damage by how large the BIG NUMBARZ are. guess that's why people are comparing diga here? how often do you really even use that tech? i sure hope its not that often...

at least its finally starting to sink in that the master jobs are just that and not "god jobs." it would seem that ST intended these jobs more for the hardcore players that want the most power they can get out of a combat type. such players will understand how to make the best out of the limitations of the jobs to get the best performance. on top of being able to do what it takes such as maxed job level, maxed out PA levels, decent S gears, know how of the battle type, etc. as it has been mentioned many times already, masters aren't the end all types and aren't meant for everyone (by a long shot).

this topic should have been closed after this reply, he/she hit that point with deadly precision.

[overstockr1]

Sorry I had to say it but masterforce's are lagging the game so bad
that I will not join a party that has more then one masterforce.

[Africa]

i laughed a t this thread when i read it.I do that a lot actually...but mf is a proverbial gimp.statwise it needs to be tweaked a lot.the evp is static and and horribly low,dfp isn't what you need as most tech classes in psu, but the hp is fine.from my comparisons so far (i capped my class all i need are techs to finish) the damage could be better,the evp is horrible and the reason you see so many mf die even in decent armor.the class needs to be rebalanced to excell at something specifically instead of being the tech equivalent of an at with rods.

a couple of facts

techs don't gain elemental%
most at 41 are 2% per lvl
you will get hit and die because dam techs don't make you invulnerable
you need to be fairly close to use gi-techs
se for techs are everywhere from 2-4 even at 41

factor this together and it equals mf needs to be rebalanced. i have ideas about how but i know ppl would hate them anyway so i post them later.

[Inazuma]

Well, you clearly haven't met Inazuma then. ^-^

and clearly you dont understand how i think. im all about the truth. MF SUCKS and i know it. like others have said, it has the worst defense and offense of the master types, which is just absurd. there is no balance at all. The reason i play as MF is b/c i like to play as the magic user in video games. usually (well, pretty much in every game except psu) the magic user has the worst defense but the best offense. i think once the big update comes in a few months or whenever, MF will get a massive boost.

psu ver 1's FT was so great. worst defense but the best offense. FF at the time was the opposite, w/ fG in the middle. good times indeed. yeah, FF needed a little boost in offense but then ST went completely insane and boosted them way too much.

master types come out, and what does ST do? increase the gap between hunter and force even more. FM can clear missions around twice as fast as MF, if not faster >_>
so, what does MF get? Death from 1 or 2 hits, crap support, no more guns, and tech visuals reverted to lv 30. So many times i considered quitting MF and just playing as cast FM but i kept hoping for a rebalance. i feel like im too invested and too dedicated to MF to switch types now. if things were like this at the start of psu, i would have been cast FM from the start. magic is fun, but thats partly b/c the magic user tends to be the best character.

oh well, im just waiting for diablo III at this point.

[Shou]

and clearly you dont understand how i think. im all about the truth. MF SUCKS and i know it. like others have said, it has the worst defense and offense of the master types, which is just absurd. there is no balance at all. The reason i play as MF is b/c i like to play as the magic user in video games. usually (well, pretty much in every game except psu) the magic user has the worst defense but the best offense. i think once the big update comes in a few months or whenever, MF will get a massive boost.

psu ver 1's FT was so great. worst defense but the best offense. FF at the time was the opposite, w/ fG in the middle. good times indeed. yeah, FF needed a little boost in offense but then ST went completely insane and boosted them way too much.

master types come out, and what does ST do? increase the gap between hunter and force even more. FM can clear missions around twice as fast as MF, if not faster >_>
so, what does MF get? Death from 1 or 2 hits, crap support, no more guns, and tech visuals reverted to lv 30. So many times i considered quitting MF and just playing as cast FM but i kept hoping for a rebalance. i feel like im too invested and too dedicated to MF to switch types now. if things were like this at the start of psu, i would have been cast FM from the start. magic is fun, but thats partly b/c the magic user tends to be the best character.

oh well, im just waiting for diablo III at this point.

LOL we are in the EXACT same boat! I even have an alt CAST FM for soloing because forces just cant cut it hahahah! too good:-D

Even if you ahve lvl 50 techs. 10-10 Pwands, Pushans, and Tesbras (lol 10-10 weapon just for resta) 50% armas lines, MF still doesnt even compare to a lvl 10 FF with 30% a ranks spamming jabroken and majarra.

I dont think Masterclasses need to be adjusted, but all forces.

[Inazuma]

so far, it looks like diablo III will be the very best game ever made. not only will the chars be balanced, but it will actually encourage multiplayer! wow, an online rpg that encourages playing w/ other people, instead of soloing? i dont believe it!. hopefully it comes out in late 2009, but we may have to wait till 2010...

and to stay on topic here:

MF sucks, but they are still the best techer type in the game, for what its worth -_-

[pikachief]

Masterforce, 5 targets around 1400 damage each with a ra- spell.....

laser many targets, straight line 1400-1600 damage each.

masterforces can fire about the same speed as a GM with a laser and its much harder to get 5 targets lined up with a laser than it is with a ra- spell.

so in some circumstances (the ones where there are multiple enemies) Techers can do possibly the most damage.

they're beyond weak. Oh noes their HP!? Dont get hit, stay back and use your spells! its not like you have to be close ranged all they time like a fighter lol

They wont rebalance masterclasses cuz they dont need to be rebalanced.

If you cant play as them or dont like some points of them, simply dont play as them.

[Vickie]

so far, it looks like diablo III will be the very best game ever made. not only will the chars be balanced, but it will actually encourage multiplayer! wow, an online rpg that encourages playing w/ other people, instead of soloing? i dont believe it!. hopefully it comes out in late 2009, but we may have to wait till 2010...

and to stay on topic here:

MF sucks, but they are still the best techer type in the game, for what its worth -_-



i dont care if its released in 2012, i thought they would never make a diablo 3 the longer they take the better, i bet its difficult for them to make diablo any better than it has been, especially while they have world of warcraft to keep up with


Masterforces shouldnt be in harms way anyway unless theyre solo but even so you can revive, and heal your bots, use extra weapons to heal no limit on healing supplies (multiple rods) so many different spells to choose from, and yall do massive damage to anything robots for example, bullets don't do so well on them and neither do striking weaps, you guys have so many things that you can use for certain situations

[Inazuma]

Masterforce, 5 targets around 1400 damage each with a ra- spell.....

laser many targets, straight line 1400-1600 damage each.

masterforces can fire about the same speed as a GM with a laser and its much harder to get 5 targets lined up with a laser than it is with a ra- spell.

so in some circumstances (the ones where there are multiple enemies) Techers can do possibly the most damage.

they're beyond weak. Oh noes their HP!? Dont get hit, stay back and use your spells! its not like you have to be close ranged all they time like a fighter lol

They wont rebalance masterclasses cuz they dont need to be rebalanced.

If you cant play as them or dont like some points of them, simply dont play as them.

if you compare MF to the monsters you fight, they appear to be strong >_> MF is weak if you compare their mission clear times to the other master types. if FM clears missions twice as fast as MF, i think its pretty obvious we could use a rebalance, dont you agree?

[Genoa]

I really don't have a problem with Masterforce.
41-50 gets a significant boost in tech damage in comparison to every other tier.
Ra techs hits 5 people
Some get higher SE's
larger AoE
Faster teching speed
Use of Rods, Madoog, and Wands at S rank.
Once your techs are maxed, you DO more damage than Fortetecher AND tech faster.
Masterforce compensates itself just fine.
Item buffs are good enough and the Resta fully heals yourself anyways.
MF is weaker defensively because it's 10x more hardcore offensively (in comparison)

[Shou]

Yeah but we arrent talking about how MF is compared to FT (The differences are totally fair) but force classes in general vs gunners and fighters. I hope down the road they do balance things out. I would like to be able to solo missions fast without having to switch to an alt fighter :/

[Sexy_Raine]

and clearly you dont understand how i think. im all about the truth. MF SUCKS and i know it. like others have said, it has the worst defense and offense of the master types, which is just absurd. there is no balance at all. The reason i play as MF is b/c i like to play as the magic user in video games. usually (well, pretty much in every game except psu) the magic user has the worst defense but the best offense. i think once the big update comes in a few months or whenever, MF will get a massive boost.

psu ver 1's FT was so great. worst defense but the best offense. FF at the time was the opposite, w/ fG in the middle. good times indeed. yeah, FF needed a little boost in offense but then ST went completely insane and boosted them way too much.

master types come out, and what does ST do? increase the gap between hunter and force even more. FM can clear missions around twice as fast as MF, if not faster >_>
so, what does MF get? Death from 1 or 2 hits, crap support, no more guns, and tech visuals reverted to lv 30. So many times i considered quitting MF and just playing as cast FM but i kept hoping for a rebalance. i feel like im too invested and too dedicated to MF to switch types now. if things were like this at the start of psu, i would have been cast FM from the start. magic is fun, but thats partly b/c the magic user tends to be the best character.

oh well, im just waiting for diablo III at this point.

Inazuma, I agree with you 110% here. Your post has pretty much summed up this topic. Like you, I love playing force, it doesn't bore me like scrubby melee does, but I'm getting tired of Segduh taking a shit on us. Anyone who disagrees with your post, seriously does not play MF.

I'm not a stat whore that bandwagons to the strongest thing, but I enjoy gunner. it's the only other style I can bare aside from force. Glad I have a secondary for Gunmaster, I'm going to abuse how broke it is.

This topic has just been killed.

[norrisj15]

Inazuma, I agree with you 110% here. Your post has pretty much summed up this topic. Like you, I love playing force, it doesn't bore me like scrubby melee does, but I'm getting tired of Segduh taking a shit on us. Anyone who disagrees with your post, seriously does not play MF.

I'm not a stat whore that bandwagons to the strongest thing, but I enjoy gunner. it's the only other style I can bare aside from force. Glad I have a secondary for Gunmaster, I'm going to abuse how broke it is.

This topic has just been killed.



Yea, I'm third in this boat. I started playing the game as a newman, because like yall said most damge weakest defense. I like being the class/character that takes skill to play do to it being fragiile, but Sega has take techer to a new level of suckage. I play all the classes now, but thats because of all the lack of updates and I had too much time to kill. Eh, I'll be on diablo III and off of PSU the day it's released. See you there.

[BIGGIEstyle]

Yeah but we aren't talking about how MF is compared to FT (The differences are totally fair) but force classes in general vs gunners and fighters. I hope down the road they do balance things out. I would like to be able to solo missions fast without having to switch to an alt fighter :/

Actually the topic name is "Master Classes NEED ADJUSTING?". Show me where it mentions forces :P

On topic: I agree that MF is a bit gimped, but seriously, it's far more rewarding to play if you play the game for enjoyment. I mean I know the ubar leet players out there that like clearing missions in 3-5 minutes will argue, but I hate being able to run though every mission in the game following the same pattern in under 5 minutes.

How interesting is "Tornado Dance to spawn, Jabroga, Majarra for whatever lives, TD to spawn, Jabroga, Majarra, TD, jabroga, majarra...."

I like clearing missions and getting rares as much as everyone else, but MF is the class that was gimped the LEAST by way of things they are able to use/do. That should count as one thing.

Techs do less damage in MF, okay, compare that to the fact that someone did a study of casting speeds somewhere and the DPS you pump as a MF on ANY weapon available to them is greater than FT wins that argument.

Can't take a hit? Dodge it. Or better yet, DON'T BE WHERE THEY CAN HIT YOU. It seriously isn't that hard.

You all whine like MF was singled out and abused by nerfing when you don't realize the same things have been done to EVERY OTHER MASTERCLASS.

I agree that Masterforce got the shaft on their Hp drop (27% Loss compared to FM's 15% and GM 6%) and that could be made better, but honestly that's the only thing that's horribly wrong.

So you don't evade anymore, hell neither does my CAST GM! Everyone took a hit to EVA (although that's a GOOD thing for FM) I mean a 100% dock to EVA? ridiculous, but coupled with the fact that like a gunner a good techer shouldn't be the retard in the middle of a spawn who cares?

I agree with Cracka's post further towards the beginning that most people are bickering about this because they're not playing the class how it was meant to be played.

FTs got cocky when they got their HP buff a while back and thought they were the shit and could take a beating like a fighter, now MF comes along and everyone is crying because they can't.

Learn to adapt. If you want Tech damage MF is the best you're gonna get.

[creativehope]

You must not have played a teching class before, the difference in damage is doesnt mean much when you dont bring a single thing to a party. Masterforces are like the fifth wheel, no one wants them around. While playing the class accurately is important, it still doesnt take away from the fact that they are the most gimped in terms of party dynamics. In this game there are only two ways to be a help to the party, thats either support or damage.

Every other techer can support better than master (which is understandable) but no techer does well in damage, unless its melee, so fortes and masters are out of that loop. And I am sorry but no techer in his right mind would get "cocky" ,as you would put it, when we got the hp boost, we all understood that the hp boost was simply because masters were coming and there needed to be a distinction between the two, plus it gave us a tiny cushion so that way simple things wouldnt one hit kill us.

Also every techer would love to dodge attacks, but once you are casting a spell thats it, and staying in the back doesnt help, why you ask, because every single stinking creature in the game can cover large distances before you finish casting, and thats with any kind of quick unit. Please all of you who say just dodge it, I want you all the get out your har/quicks and do Mag (I chose this mission simply because the big creature appears faster) and i want you to try and dodge a bil de vear every single time, because I can assure you that the one time you dont, its game over for you.

you will see just how hard it is to dodge that creature every time, lol I would also like to see you all dodge a vahra, dodging them as a techer takes either practice, or patients, and i can guarantee that in a party patients goes out the window because of the exp you need. And while every class did receive a bit of a nerf, i think that masterforces received the biggest nerf, but then again no techer class is in any better situation.

And before any says that I dont know how to play the class, i beg to differ. I understand the class 100%. I know that my claim to fame is that I can keep creatures at bay and kill them before they get to me, but you see, that only works for a masterforce in a perfect world. Besides the fact that I cant stop creatures who are in their jumping animation with a Ra-spell, and besides the fact that some creatures cover large distances very quicly, PSU's system is flawed. one creature will break through your ra-rant and then your whole game plan is out of whack. It never fails, and re-adjusting doesnt help at all.

I implore every person who has not played a teching class to try it out and see what all the griping is about. Now do I like MF yes I do, but can it be improved upon with out it being broken, That is a resounding yes

[sovalou]

the only reason melee is so over powered is because of a technique known as just attack, which nearly doubles their damage, added with jabroga melee is the better AoE sadly. Had they made just counter only, they would have keep techers and gunners closer to damage unlike it is now.

[Africa]

obviously alot of you guys have never been techers.Eva is what keptmost of us alive when psu was difficult.the damage should be better but in general the stats wreak of failure.If you use gi-techs you need to be near enemies,so don't tell ppl that they are relegated to being a background char. Mf is simply not built well and ppl know it but sega has always had toreadjust tech classes it just takes them forever.

[Yusaku_Kudou]

Just get it over with and go Gunmaster. Maybe you're a newman, but so am I. However, laser cannon (any element) LV41+, decent cannon, and a Kaos Knight will make you forget about everything. It will also outdo your tech damage. :P

And if you think Masterforce is broken (which it is, but mostly because tech slowdown and terrible buffs), try playing Fighmaster. Not even a handgun, PP usage is insanely off the wall high (you will run out of PP in 7-12 uses without a PP save, basically), the weapon selection limits the total number of possible PAs to level an astronomical 13, most of which are very similar to each other, and the class takes damage like nobody's business.

[Sexy_Raine]

I like clearing missions and getting rares as much as everyone else, but MF is the class that was gimped the LEAST by way of things they are able to use/do. That should count as one thing.

You all whine like MF was singled out and abused by nerfing when you don't realize the same things have been done to EVERY OTHER MASTERCLASS.

.

I smell BS from a mile away after reading this. Ok, Rifles, Lasers and shotguns can do everything better than techs can do, not to mention techers don't even have a proper light offense tech as Regrants + low HP is bad.

MF is the only one that truly got singled out. Gunmasters shouldn't even be taking that much damage anyway. Faster bullets are very good., SE5 and Rifle stagger big enemies from a safe distance, it kills its forte- counterpart in terms of being effective. Their defense stats took nowhere near a big hit like MF did. They can also use traps too.

Do I need to add more?

[FOnewearl-Lina]

Well, you clearly haven't met Inazuma then. ^-^
I've met Inazuma, and Inazuma doesn't even like doing TA so that point is moot :P

I started an MF last event and got decent PA levels thanks to the PA up, MAG with lots of enemies and reduced HP was good for MF, but now that Colony GBR is the current event, nobody wants MF around :-(


MF sucks, but they are still the best techer type in the game, for what its worth -_-
Hi Inazuma, I met you before... remember?

Well GM and MF pretty much pale in comparison to FM don't they? Except MF excels in areas where there are numerous small fry -reduce the number of enemies that spawn at any given time and the effectiveness of RA/Damu/Gi tech decreases, they also suck against bosses. GM on the other hand can simply run up to the enemy and point blank a single enemy for 6500 damage(+splash damage) with their shotgun. It's an inverse relationship. Too bad Jabroga still rules all.

[JAFO22000]

You must not have played a teching class before, the difference in damage is doesnt mean much when you dont bring a single thing to a party. Masterforces are like the fifth wheel, no one wants them around. While playing the class accurately is important, it still doesnt take away from the fact that they are the most gimped in terms of party dynamics. In this game there are only two ways to be a help to the party, thats either support or damage.

Every other techer can support better than master (which is understandable) but no techer does well in damage, unless its melee, so fortes and masters are out of that loop. And I am sorry but no techer in his right mind would get "cocky" ,as you would put it, when we got the hp boost, we all understood that the hp boost was simply because masters were coming and there needed to be a distinction between the two, plus it gave us a tiny cushion so that way simple things wouldnt one hit kill us.

Also every techer would love to dodge attacks, but once you are casting a spell thats it, and staying in the back doesnt help, why you ask, because every single stinking creature in the game can cover large distances before you finish casting, and thats with any kind of quick unit. Please all of you who say just dodge it, I want you all the get out your har/quicks and do Mag (I chose this mission simply because the big creature appears faster) and i want you to try and dodge a bil de vear every single time, because I can assure you that the one time you dont, its game over for you.

you will see just how hard it is to dodge that creature every time, lol I would also like to see you all dodge a vahra, dodging them as a techer takes either practice, or patients, and i can guarantee that in a party patients goes out the window because of the exp you need. And while every class did receive a bit of a nerf, i think that masterforces received the biggest nerf, but then again no techer class is in any better situation.

And before any says that I dont know how to play the class, i beg to differ. I understand the class 100%. I know that my claim to fame is that I can keep creatures at bay and kill them before they get to me, but you see, that only works for a masterforce in a perfect world. Besides the fact that I cant stop creatures who are in their jumping animation with a Ra-spell, and besides the fact that some creatures cover large distances very quicly, PSU's system is flawed. one creature will break through your ra-rant and then your whole game plan is out of whack. It never fails, and re-adjusting doesnt help at all.

I implore every person who has not played a teching class to try it out and see what all the griping is about. Now do I like MF yes I do, but can it be improved upon with out it being broken, That is a resounding yes

Wow.

First of all, dodging a Bil De Vear is simple as a techer, especially for a MF, as the casting speed is increased. BDVs tend to telegraph their moves, so if you are far enough away (Razonde casting distance) you should be able to dodge them everytime as long as you aren't just pressing buttons. More than one Bil is a problem, but this would be a problem for most anyone who solos. And, always remember that you can find the spawn limit for any of these large creatures and use it to your advantage. Use the environment to your advantage as well (i.e. trap them against walls so they keep running into it while you kill them!).

Secondly, there is no need to dodge a Vahra AT ALL as a techer. You should really try using Damdiga on these guys. I can keep a group of 8 Vahras at bay with little difficulty. The stagger of this tech keeps them all in place, while having it at 41+ extends the duration of the tech. It takes some time to get the timing down, but when you do you'll find that a spawn of Vahras are pretty much the easiest thing a techer can fight.

Your ignorance of this class really shows in your post.

[Shou]

Saying you should never get hit is just silly. Thats like saying well FF can use a handguns so why are you getting hit? just run in a room, use the handgun, and when the enemies get too close just run out till they respon and repeat. if a techer plays like that it would take over an hour to do one SE S2 run. :(

Techs are NOT an inpenitrable wall that enemies cant get past to every enemy. That can only be done against some ver1 enemies like in sleeping warriors. Besides, its been posted before, gunners and fighters do even that better than techers.

I will give tevchers this: In parties, techs keep all the enemies kinda bunched up the same way they were when they spawned so that fighters and gunners can plow them away easier.

[DreXxiN]

*Sigh*

Can this thread just die until the American's and EU's are competent enough to judge the class?

WE KNOW IT'S HARD, and it's probably not as "good" as the other master's, Sorry.

But when you have 46%+ Elemental armor, CAP THE DAMN CLASS, and then get your techs to at LEAST 45+, not Fortetecher cap with REDUCED DAMAGE, then I think we should start making an analysis.

Unfortunately I didn't level many techs in the early stage of the game, or I might just play MF strictly for the challenge that knowing if I'm skilled enough and have the gear I could clear anything and it'd be extremely fun.

[Shou]

It is fun. MF has been probably the most fun class i have played so far. Try it out! ^_^

[Darius_Drake]

You don't agree with me you must not have played the class. Wow, that's an enlightened attitude. All these arguments about which masterclass can solo faster is completely moot. The masterclasses were not made to solo in the first place. This is why FM no longer have access to any type of guns, GM have no access to any type of melee, and MF have no access to either. These classes were created to work in parties. Want to see a FM pull their hair out, have them solo Serpent Awoken S2. That is why each of my characters will be jumping between two jobs. I must admit I feel the HP reduction the MF took was way to much since the forces already had the lowest HP to begin with. It also makes it twice as bad for those like myself that made their force a newman. Thing is I feel ST's biggest mistake with these classes was naming them Master classes. It was stated that these classes were not the ultimate classes, but a different option for players, but the name suggests otherwise. I don't really care about MF joining my party if I am not using my MF at the time. The only complaint I have heard from others is about the lag and blindness certain spells cause. My question to those who claim people only want you in parties for buffs or damage and will keep you out because you don't do enough is "Who the heck do you try to play with"??? I have yet to meet a group that has kicked me for a lack of damage or buffs.

[Genoa]

...
Masterforce is not gimp <___>
The majority of classes are overpowered in my opinion, Masterforce seems to be one of the classes that actually makes sense.
omg you can actually die! <__<
It's still the most fun class I've ever played. 41+ Attack techs puts a shit-eating grin on my face every time I cast :D

[desturel]

a spawn of Vahras are pretty much the easiest thing a techer can fight.

I'd put the top 10 in this order:

Booma
Badira
Naval
Koltova
Ice Vanda
Go Vahra
Polty
Ageeta
Kamatoze
Go Bajila

Why not Nava Ludda and Sageeta? Because they run around too damn much so you have to chase them down and kill them one by one. Go Bajila do as well, but at least they don't spit Barta/Foie while doing it.

Polty jump from side to side too often to be ranked lower than Go Vahra.

Distova, Ollaka, Jishagara, Volfu, and other Koltova variants run around and attempt to flank you causing you to have to readjust your position. Sendillian and Orcadillian have the added "run around everywhere" annoyance.

Regular Vanda are pretty easy as well. Hitting them with ra-spells makes quick work of them since they stay a set distance away from you, however getting them lined up in a group takes a bit of manipulation that other rush down creatures don't have.

Kakwane and Bel Pannon are actually rather annoying with their knockdown moves. Plus they tend to jump through dam spells more often that Go Vahra. Deljaban would be around the same level as Go Vahra except for megid. Buffed Deljaban can doing a good amount of damage to you even with a decent percentage dark armor and they are more likely to jump backwards out of a damn spell and toss megid forcing you to dodge.

Goshin and Bul Buna can be handled with regrant, but that spell is pretty dangerous for a masterforce with the decreased HP.

Go Booma are a bit more difficult than Go Vahra in that they tend to jump through dam spells more often.

[Shinko]

You must not have played a teching class before, the difference in damage is doesnt mean much when you dont bring a single thing to a party. Masterforces are like the fifth wheel, no one wants them around. While playing the class accurately is important, it still doesnt take away from the fact that they are the most gimped in terms of party dynamics. In this game there are only two ways to be a help to the party, thats either support or damage.



I agree with this. I'm not saying its a useless class, im just saying it is like a fifth wheel and don't really bring much to the party. (besides lag XD)

[DreXxiN]

I agree with this. I'm not saying its a useless class, im just saying it is like a fifth wheel and don't really bring much to the party. (besides lag and the occasional TECHNIC casting animation lock glitch that causes you to abandon the mission at Egg Thieves.

Fix'd :P

[JAFO22000]

I'd put the top 10 in this order:

Booma
Badira
Naval
Koltova
Ice Vanda
Go Vahra
Polty
Ageeta
Kamatoze
Go Bajila

Why not Nava Ludda and Sageeta? Because they run around too damn much so you have to chase them down and kill them one by one. Go Bajila do as well, but at least they don't spit Barta/Foie while doing it.

Polty jump from side to side too often to be ranked lower than Go Vahra.

Distova, Ollaka, Jishagara, Volfu, and other Koltova variants run around and attempt to flank you causing you to have to readjust your position. Sendillian and Orcadillian have the added "run around everywhere" annoyance.

Regular Vanda are pretty easy as well. Hitting them with ra-spells makes quick work of them since they stay a set distance away from you, however getting them lined up in a group takes a bit of manipulation that other rush down creatures don't have.

Kakwane and Bel Pannon are actually rather annoying with their knockdown moves. Plus they tend to jump through dam spells more often that Go Vahra. Deljaban would be around the same level as Go Vahra except for megid. Buffed Deljaban can doing a good amount of damage to you even with a decent percentage dark armor and they are more likely to jump backwards out of a damn spell and toss megid forcing you to dodge.

Goshin and Bul Buna can be handled with regrant, but that spell is pretty dangerous for a masterforce with the decreased HP.

Go Booma are a bit more difficult than Go Vahra in that they tend to jump through dam spells more often.


Great list! Don't forget about the Zampavas (sp?) as well. Damegid absolutely destroys those things!!!

[OldCoot]

30 levels of tech, 30% increase in implicit element, S rank equipment versus B rank, and a speed bonus. You do realize how much more power that adds up to, right?


I agree. It just seems that MF is gimped because people notice that the usual HP is down and you can't run around with level 3 buffs anymore.

How about the Ra spells hitting 5 targets at 41+?

MF is just fine. If anything I would drop the Hp some more. MFs do not need to have the health to go toe to toe with targets when you can stand back and blast things from afar. Giresta is always at hand and with the meseta drops, anyone can go buy some Moons or even pick them up.

Don't people want something thrown into the game to make it a bit more challanging?

[unicorn]

MF is fine in terms of damage (to one target enemies at least). It does what its supposed to do, being an offensive techer.

But its kinda unfair that you need 40% + armor to survive, when fighters have a much lower standard to live with. Its more embarrassing in an offensive type that does mediocre damage.

In terms of defensive stats, I'm kinda satisfied that my MF is a Cast.

[Sexy_Raine]

Don't people want something thrown into the game to make it a bit more challanging?

It's not about challenge, it's about fairness. And there is no fairness vs. the other master classes. there's no point of playing something of the weakest defense, yet still be outdamaged by the other 2 with less effort.

I've been a techer main since Nov. 06'. PSU Ver1 fortetecher was awesome, it was rewarding and challenging to play and I enjoyed it very much.

Ever since AOTI came out I never felt the same about it, it didn't really improve much since but I still stuck with it cause it's what I enjoy. Now I don't think I can hold my loyalty to it anymore, cause Segduh fucked up the system. I've been giving my gunner a lot attention, and eventually focus my attention to her entirely.

I'm sure more MFs will convert to GM eventually, it's only a matter of time.

[Powder Keg]

I'm sure more MFs will convert to GM eventually, it's only a matter of time.
I don't think people are going to change to GM because they're simply not elitists who have to do hueg DPS. (not to mention it even depends upon the situation). Personally, I find Ranger classes a lot more boring than the others.

What would you do to MF to improve it?

[Ezodagrom]

In my opinion it's not masterforce that should be rebalanced (boosted). It's almost all other classes that should be nerfed XD

[Shou]

Masterforces can open boxes with great efficiency! :wacko:

[Sexy_Raine]

Masterforces can open boxes with great efficiency! :wacko:

LMAO. Ya insta-kill them with megid for good measure. :P

[Akaimizu]

Oddly enough. I kind of feel that if there's one thing I'd like for MFs, is some optimization on their tech visuals. A client update, if you will. They need to streamline that code so that tech visuals don't cause as much slowdown. This would be a big benefit for all techers, really. (I know, it's a lot to ask for. However, one can dream, can they?)

I sometimes feel that some techs could probably be fired off faster (and with a higher degree of safety) if spell-visual-lag wasn't a factor in recovery times. And while it *appears* that monsters are slowed down too, the reality is that they aren't so much. Thus the practical teleporting update of a tech user getting suddenly killed by the server updating with (oh! you didn't know? The mob was really here and um. already killed ya. Sorry for the late update!) Of course, it wouldn't stop that from happening, completely; but it would certainly help to lower the times it does.

[creativehope]

Wow.

First of all, dodging a Bil De Vear is simple as a techer, especially for a MF, as the casting speed is increased. BDVs tend to telegraph their moves, so if you are far enough away (Razonde casting distance) you should be able to dodge them everytime as long as you aren't just pressing buttons. More than one Bil is a problem, but this would be a problem for most anyone who solos. And, always remember that you can find the spawn limit for any of these large creatures and use it to your advantage. Use the environment to your advantage as well (i.e. trap them against walls so they keep running into it while you kill them!).

Secondly, there is no need to dodge a Vahra AT ALL as a techer. You should really try using Damdiga on these guys. I can keep a group of 8 Vahras at bay with little difficulty. The stagger of this tech keeps them all in place, while having it at 41+ extends the duration of the tech. It takes some time to get the timing down, but when you do you'll find that a spawn of Vahras are pretty much the easiest thing a techer can fight.

Your ignorance of this class really shows in your post.


Ha ha, I apologize for being ignorant, but let me make one thing clear. Against a bli de vear, all i ever use is razonde/nos zonde depending on the situation and I chose mag and bil de vear for a reason, there are no walls to keep it at bay. the first bil de, you have a tiny cave between you and it and if you try using that as cover then the bil de wont spawn again unless you have someone at its spawn point to keep it there. secondly i am not saying that you will never dodge it, but at the same time, unless you remove the rappys first then you are screwed. Also let us not forget that both the body slam and the punch have a huge area of effect. i cant count how many times i dodge completely (including the flashing lights that both of these attacks produce) and I still received damage, and i am either stunned or sleep, or dead. Heck, any big creature, besides jarbas, can give a techer a problem when there are no walls and they are more of a physical type of creature.

As far as vahras go, Damdiga is the best option you have against them, BUT I've also been in situations where either the hit doesnt register or one just completely breaks through with the jumping attack, when that happens I would like to see anyone escape that (if you survive as a master force), most of the time you wont unless you are at the very edge of their spawn points and even that wont help sometimes as the creatures can decided whenever they want to just go beyond that and hit you for massive damage and there is nothing you can do about it. You cant retaliate or anything because technically they shouldnt be there, But that is simply just a flaw in the game, So i guess my point on it is rather moot. lol maybe I should have just stopped and accepted masterforce for what it is, the anti-party force.

[BahnKnakyu]

Actually, MF kinda reminds me a lot of the old-style DND mage class.

At the beginning they're complete crap. Their stats are crap, they do crap damage, they die easily and are generally worthless to groups/parties.

Endgame, they're pretty good. Endgame meaning: high level spells, high end equipment, high class level, etc.

You don't get a "instant-win" button like you do with a GM or FM, you really have to stick to it for a good 10+ class levels before your MF stops being a chew toy for monsters.

I think the problem people are having is they're switching to MF expecting to be able to play like they did with their FT (which are now reasonably balanced - balanced for a techer class anyway). IMO you really have to be a bit more defensive as an MF (even though it's an offensive tech class) until the later class levels, when your HP goes from complete crap to something that is only somewhat laughable and your spellcasting power is a bit more viable.

[Arika]

In my opinion it's not masterforce that should be rebalanced (boosted). It's almost all other classes that should be nerfed XD

so...true...lol


anyway, masterforce is fine, but I think mastergunner and masterfighter are just too strong.
nerf FF and FM by adjustment on "timing attack" to have only 125% damage instead of 150%.
and nerf mastergunner by reducing their PA power about 10%.

[darthplagis]

the main problem i see in this situation is people are forgetting the number one basics of the game, as set out in PSO and mentioned when you create a char in PSU

HUnters/fighters are ideal beginner classes, high HP and high ATP. úber easy mode. as sega said on release the beasts were made for beginner players as they have even higher boosts to HP and ATP

RAngers/gunners are intermediate classes, lower HP but medium/high ATP and high accuracy. like the race that was made for this role, CAST suit this role very well

and finally.....

FOrce/techers are made for advanced players, with low HP and ATP they are fragile in combat and it is best avoided, magic however makes up for the lack of raw power. the ideal techers newmans are physically weak in combat but have high mental ability's

now looking at the above statements the master classes embody the very thing that the class inherently is, so if low HP is a problem be a beast fighter.

now before any beast lovers come whining about me being in the illuminus look at the race specific weapons

Humans/newmans get crea, yeah big deal but as they are all rounders it fits

newmans get the halarod, now unless im mistaken its a ROD so that means its for techers right??

cast get the killer elite a rifle made solely for rangers

and beasts get the gudda hon a mele weapon used mainly by forte fighters (wartechers are weird especially beast ones)

this is how sega intended the game to be played. obviously we can do as we want in the game BUT if it doesent fit (waahhh my beast MF cant use its racial weapon!!! baawwww bawww segac fix this NAAAOOOOO) then stop whining and suck it up

[Magus_84]

magic however makes up for the lack of raw power.


That's the entire problem with your thesis.

It doesn't. Far from it.

I don't know how you took the pages of argument in this topic and distilled it down to "waahhh my beast MF cant use its racial weapon!!! baawwww bawww segac fix this NAAAOOOOO".

That's not it at all. It's not a problem with Beasts being unable to use Halarods or being bad Masterforces.

It's a problem with the things Masterforce gives up not being worth what they get in return, unless you're judging "worth" in "ability to destroy framerate".

If you'd played PSO, you'd realize that Sega has a very long history of saying one thing and having the game mechanics reflect something entirely opposite. Their systems are unable to stand up to any thinking player for any longer than about five minutes.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

cast get the killer elite a rifle made solely for rangers
Explain Berdysh then.
I think they realised their mistake ages ago, and this is why Master classes don't have racial bonuses whereas the earlier types do.

[Billy Mitchell]

The sad truth is that masterclasses reveal how badly some people are at playing the game, how reliant they are on their s+10 glitch funded armors and weapons, how they do not know how to avoid being hit, how they do not know how to deal with different enemies in different situations in different types of parties.

When PSU first started, on the 360 servers at least, the game was very hard. You could take yourself to levels with enemies much higher in level than you, and you would learn how to play to your strengths and against your weaknesses. It was frustrating, but challenging. Then the game was adjusted and players began to approach and surpass the levels and challenges of the enemies. As players got better gear, and then with the cash explosion from the glitches, the game became a second nature romp that you could accomplish while doing other things. Now some players find themselves faced with what a lot of us had to deal with early on, and these players have no clue how to handle it other than to complain about things being unbalanced.

My only suggestion, and I mean this as sincerely and helpfully as I can, is to shut the fuck up and be a beast fighmaster. Pussies.

[SupaHype]

Thank you Magus_84


It's a problem with the things Masterforce gives up not being worth what they get in return, unless you're judging "worth" in "ability to destroy framerate".


This is exactly why i started this this thread....

The MAJOR things Masterforce gives up...

600+ HP LOSS AFTER MAXING the class
50% of your evasion (very bad for techers. imagine getting hit in a fight twice as much with 25%less HP than before!!!)
Weaker spells even if they are levels HIGHER than that of other classes. (ie. Diga Lev 40 (FT) 4000+ damage, vs Diga Lev 45 (MF) 3600)

Far outweighs what it gains...

20% Defense boost (nullified by the loss of HP)
Pretty Visuals Great for techers (not so much for others) and level 50 techniques (that do less damage than their level 40 FT counterparts)
SLIGHT increase in casting speed (nullified by lower spell damage than the FT class you switched from)

Why exactly is this class so great again. I must have missed something.....
forget just reading about it on paper. Play the class and you will feel the difference.

[amtalx]

Look, forces weren't powerhouses to begin with. Why do you expect MF to shit all over everything? MF just an offensively strong, and defensively weak FT with a limited palette. The class does what its supposed to. Stop whining.

[SupaHype]

[QUOTE=Magus_84;2225187]



It's a problem with the things Masterforce gives up not being worth what they get in return, unless you're judging "worth" in "ability to destroy framerate".


This is exactly why i started this this thread....

The MAJOR things Masterforce gives up...

600+ HP LOSS AFTER MAXING the class
50% of your evasion (very bad for techers. imagine getting hit in a fight twice as much with 25%less HP than before!!!)
Weaker spells even if they are levels HIGHER than that of other classes. (ie. Diga Lev 40 (FT) 4000+ damage, vs Diga Lev 45 (MF) 3600)

Far outweighs what it gains...

20% Defense boost (nullified by the loss of HP)
Pretty Visuals Great for techers (not so much for others) and level 50 techniques (that do less damage than their level 40 FT counterparts)
SLIGHT increase in casting speed (nullified by lower spell damage than the FT class you switched from)

Why exactly is this class so great again. I must have missed something.....
forget just reading about it on paper. Play the class and you will feel the difference.

[JAFO22000]

Thank you Magus_84


It's a problem with the things Masterforce gives up not being worth what they get in return, unless you're judging "worth" in "ability to destroy framerate".


This is exactly why i started this this thread....

The MAJOR things Masterforce gives up...

600+ HP LOSS AFTER MAXING the class
50% of your evasion (very bad for techers. imagine getting hit in a fight twice as much with 25%less HP than before!!!)
Weaker spells even if they are levels HIGHER than that of other classes. (ie. Diga Lev 40 (FT) 4000+ damage, vs Diga Lev 45 (MF) 3600)

Far outweighs what it gains...

20% Defense boost (nullified by the loss of HP)
Pretty Visuals Great for techers (not so much for others) and level 50 techniques (that do less damage than their level 40 FT counterparts)
SLIGHT increase in casting speed (nullified by lower spell damage than the FT class you switched from)

Why exactly is this class so great again. I must have missed something.....
forget just reading about it on paper. Play the class and you will feel the difference.

Why are you still complaining? Just go back to playing as a FT.

You aren't upset that (in your opinion) MF is worse than FT. You're upset that (again, in your opinion) MF isn't better than FT.

The real answer is that MF is DIFFERENT than FT; it does some things better and some things worse. You obviously like what FT does better than MF, so why are you still here complaining?

[SupaHype]

The sad truth is that masterclasses reveal how badly some people are at playing the game, how reliant they are on their s+10 glitch funded armors and weapons, how they do not know how to avoid being hit, how they do not know how to deal with different enemies in different situations in different types of parties.

When PSU first started, on the 360 servers at least, the game was very hard. You could take yourself to levels with enemies much higher in level than you, and you would learn how to play to your strengths and against your weaknesses. It was frustrating, but challenging. Then the game was adjusted and players began to approach and surpass the levels and challenges of the enemies. As players got better gear, and then with the cash explosion from the glitches, the game became a second nature romp that you could accomplish while doing other things. Now some players find themselves faced with what a lot of us had to deal with early on, and these players have no clue how to handle it other than to complain about things being unbalanced.

My only suggestion, and I mean this as sincerely and helpfully as I can, is to shut the fuck up and be a beast fighmaster. Pussies.



I dont completely disagree that sega has made the game easier over the years. Im sure they did this for newer players to have an opportunity to catch up. And every glitch or cheat in the game has helped alot of players get their levels and money higher. not to mention those who started their accountd during MAG and leveled up to S rank within weeks. So, i partially agree with you.

Me personally though... ive been playing PSO since Dreamcast, I beta tested PSU and bought the game on the first day it was released. Ive been a Force since the beginning, and leveled up my spells before the 2.5 increase and grinded weapons when the broke and you lost them.

My issue is not that the game isnt easy, its that the new class (MF) is broken and needs to be fixed.

[Cracka_J]

Why are you still complaining? Just go back to playing as a FT.

Thank you.

Omgh4x I'm agreeing with JAFO for once.
But the answer is pretty simple. You have options, stop complaining and go play them. Nobody is forcing you to play masters.

[JAFO22000]

Omgh4x I'm agreeing with JAFO for once.


Everybody gets one.

:P

[Shou]

and clearly you dont understand how i think. im all about the truth. MF SUCKS and i know it. like others have said, it has the worst defense and offense of the master types, which is just absurd. there is no balance at all. The reason i play as MF is b/c i like to play as the magic user in video games. usually (well, pretty much in every game except psu) the magic user has the worst defense but the best offense. i think once the big update comes in a few months or whenever, MF will get a massive boost.

psu ver 1's FT was so great. worst defense but the best offense. FF at the time was the opposite, w/ fG in the middle. good times indeed. yeah, FF needed a little boost in offense but then ST went completely insane and boosted them way too much.

master types come out, and what does ST do? increase the gap between hunter and force even more. FM can clear missions around twice as fast as MF, if not faster >_>
so, what does MF get? Death from 1 or 2 hits, crap support, no more guns, and tech visuals reverted to lv 30. So many times i considered quitting MF and just playing as cast FM but i kept hoping for a rebalance. i feel like im too invested and too dedicated to MF to switch types now. if things were like this at the start of psu, i would have been cast FM from the start. magic is fun, but thats partly b/c the magic user tends to be the best character.

oh well, im just waiting for diablo III at this point.

This is the idea of 3 experienced players now on the position of techers that have actually PLAYED bother techers classes AND fighter / gunner classes. If you are not an experienced techer, please do not talk about them like you know unless you are talking about their contribution to the party.

[SupaHype]

Why are you still complaining? Just go back to playing as a FT.

You aren't upset that (in your opinion) MF is worse than FT. You're upset that (again, in your opinion) MF isn't better than FT.

The real answer is that MF is DIFFERENT than FT; it does some things better and some things worse. You obviously like what FT does better than MF, so why are you still here complaining?

Oh Hush JAF. You dont own this forum... This letter was addressed to Sega, not you (READ THE FIRST POST). Ive spent enough money with them that i deserve a complaint once every few years.... If i want to discuss an issue here, then that is part of the reason that forums exist... im sure that ive been playing PS longer than u. (Unless you have a master system) and video games since before u were born... Anyway... this is not personal... it actually isnt about u JAF.... This was to sega.

And those statistics about FT and MF that i posted are not opinion, they are facts. The class needs adjusting, straight up.... And when/if Sega does do the positive adustments you wont be complaining about it. ( i believe you said you play MF too)

[Shou]

To Supa: I dont think that MF is bad compared to FT. Its a perfectly fair change in stats. My soloing SE S2 times whent from 26 min. to 22min per run when i switch from FT to MF and my techs arrent even all the way lvled. Techers in general just need to be doing WAY more damage. Unless SEGA really intended techers to be the easiest to die and the weakest. And i dont think they really want that.

Switching to MF from FT is like gitting an extra Har Quick for lowering a handful of your stats by 2/3 to 1/2 :-D. But its well worth it (damage wise) the har / quick and har / smart, even me / quick's penalties for casting quicker are a joke and they rent every other tech unit useless. (accept lumira spread)

[SolomonGrundy]

you know I hate to say it, but there were a few mechanics in pre AoI PSU that I prefer. Like armor % mattering. I went around wearing B rank armor because it protected better than anthing A rank.

I also liked the (frustratingly) low percetages on weapons. Made high % weapons more rare and valuable (and made techer elemental bonus on techs and rods more attractive).

On Topic:
Masterforces are perfectly balanced. the lower HP is offset by the increased MST/DFP, The higher level techs + cast speed + level 2 buffs (from items) allow them to hit for more damage per time than Fortetechers. Also, I dare say the range on level 50 techs allow Masterforces to make better use of the Har/Smart unit. In a party with higher level buffs they REALLY damage wise.

Access to S rank madoogs is just a nice bonus.


So basically you give up EVP, pp save (lol), and access to ranged weaponry (which most Fortetecher never use except to hit button switches), for fast, visually exciting and deadly techs - which is what I daresay most fortetechers really want.

The complainers basically want to nerf fortetecher. There are many areas in this game a masterforce walks all over (faster than a well equiped fortefighter or fighmaster). There are other stages that do favor the fighter or gunner types - but taht is to be expected, no?

[JAFO22000]

Oh Hush JAF. You dont own this forum... This letter was addressed to Sega, not you (READ THE FIRST POST). Ive spent enough money with them that i deserve a complaint once every few years.... If i want to discuss an issue here, then that is part of the reason that forums exist... im sure that ive been playing PS longer than u. (Unless you have a master system) and video games since before u were born... Anyway... this is not personal... it actually isnt about u JAF.... This was to sega.

And those statistics about FT and MF that i posted are not opinion, they are facts. The class needs adjusting, straight up.... And when/if Sega does do the positive adustments you wont be complaining about it. ( i believe you said you play MF too)

If you wanted to address this letter to Sega, why didn't you send it directly to them? Why are you posting this HERE (which isn't even the offcial forum?).

A forum is a place where people come to share ideas. You shared your thoughts of this class and I have shared mine. You are not happy with the class and I am still undecided. I can say that I am still keeping an open mind about the class until I have it maxed out, at which point I can make a decision about whether I like it or not. I think it's safe to say that you've played the new class for less than a few weeks now and are vehemently opposed to it.

For the record, I am fairly certain that you have NOT been playing PS longer than I have. I did have a Master System and was 13 when PS came out for it. I then moved on to a Genesis and owned PSII, PSIII and PSIV. There aren't many people here who have more experience with PS games than me.

You say your stats are facts, and they may very well be but you're still not looking at the speed factor of casting. Nor are you looking at the fact that Dam- techs at 41+ have a longer duration and that Ra- techs at 41+ hit 5 vs 4 targets. But alas, logic is lost on you. MF Diga doesn't do as much damage as FT Diga. MF HP's are lower than FT HP's. MF evasion is lower than FT evasion. You're just looking at numbers as a whole without analyzing them.

Yes, evasion is down but with faster casting time, your character isn't stuck in one place as long thus you can move more thus you can avoid getting hit altogether instead of getting hit and letting the game decide if you evade or not.

Yes, HPs are down but AGAIN faster casting time = more time to physically get away from attacks. Also a MF can't survive in close range vs. most enemies due to their lower HP therefore one using this class should GET AWAY from enemies and try to get hit less.

It's no use trying to explain this to you though. So I will stop here. If you are on the 360 servers I can join your party and show you how I play the class if you'd like.

[SupaHype]

I see what you are saying shou (love the rangers). I dont know what level or stats your character is but i know my FT did heavy damage and even the defense (because of the evasion) was ok. Never great compared to other classes but thats fine.. thats a techer. I soloed S2's and did ok. When i switched to MF. Those same levels i soloed with ease almost became unplayable. Fights with motherbrain went from a good challenge to one hit kills even with better armor and slot units. Im not just making this stuff up.... I checked with other High level MF's who experience this same issue.

Im just saying that there is no logical reason that a spell should do significantly less damage after going from level 40 to 45 while the Character has also gone up from 140 to 150. that doesnt make sense to me.... i dont know how it does to anyone....

Thank you for a clear response too Shou....

[SupaHype]

If you wanted to address this letter to Sega, why didn't you send it directly to them? Why are you posting this HERE (which isn't even the offcial forum?).

A forum is a place where people come to share ideas. You shared your thoughts of this class and I have shared mine. You are not happy with the class and I am still undecided. I can say that I am still keeping an open mind about the class until I have it maxed out, at which point I can make a decision about whether I like it or not. I think it's safe to say that you've played the new class for less than a few weeks now and are vehemently opposed to it.

For the record, I am fairly certain that you have NOT been playing PS longer than I have. I did have a Master System and was 13 when PS came out for it. I then moved on to a Genesis and owned PSII, PSIII and PSIV. There aren't many people here who have more experience with PS games than me.

You say your stats are facts, and they may very well be but you're still not looking at the speed factor of casting. Nor are you looking at the fact that Dam- techs at 41+ have a longer duration and that Ra- techs at 41+ hit 5 vs 4 targets. But alas, logic is lost on you. MF Diga doesn't do as much damage as FT Diga. MF HP's are lower than FT HP's. MF evasion is lower than FT evasion. You're just looking at numbers as a whole without analyzing them.

Yes, evasion is down but with faster casting time, your character isn't stuck in one place as long thus you can move more thus you can avoid getting hit altogether instead of getting hit and letting the game decide if you evade or not.

Yes, HPs are down but AGAIN faster casting time = more time to physically get away from attacks. Also a MF can't survive in close range vs. most enemies due to their lower HP therefore one using this class should GET AWAY from enemies and try to get hit less.

It's no use trying to explain this to you though. So I will stop here. If you are on the 360 servers I can join your party and show you how I play the class if you'd like.


JAF Come find me... i will make sure i get on tonight. MY Char is "Glow" F Newman. Ill be on Parum East in uni 2. I want to speak to you after you (we) max out the class. and get your opinions then.....

OH, and both of us know that sega reads this forum too.... i was going to post this on that forum first but i had to clear an issue there with my email address...

[JAFO22000]

JAF Come find me... i will make sure i get on tonight. MY Char is "Glow" F Newman. Ill be on Parum East in uni 2. I want to speak to you after you (we) max out the class. and get your opinions then.....

OH, and both of us know that sega reads this forum too.... i was going to post this on that forum first but i had to clear an issue there with my email address...

I will probably be on tonight around 5-6PM Pacific time. I will look for you in universe 2.

[the sega shop]

spent a while today comparing a lv150 fortefighter 20 and a lv150 fighmaster 20 on the de ragan hitting it with a capped jabroga ( 40 for fortefighter & 50 for fighmaster )
both using the very same axe.


end of the day the fortefighter was hitting it harder & killing it quicker, nuff said,

Anything else you`d like to waste our time with sega?

Glad i didn`t sell my fortefighter / fortegunner or fortetecher weapons :)

[SolomonGrundy]

spent a while today comparing a lv150 fortefighter 20 and a lv150 fighmaster 20 on the de ragan hitting it with a capped jabroga ( 40 for fortefighter & 50 for fighmaster )
both using the very same axe.


end of the day the fortefighter was hitting it harder & killing it quicker, nuff said,

Anything else you`d like to waste our time with sega?

Glad i didn`t sell my fortefighter / fortegunner or fortetecher weapons :)

video or it did not happen. ESPECIALLY on the dragon, who is a total chump

[JAFO22000]

spent a while today comparing a lv150 fortefighter 20 and a lv150 fighmaster 20 on the de ragan hitting it with a capped jabroga ( 40 for fortefighter & 50 for fighmaster )
both using the very same axe.


end of the day the fortefighter was hitting it harder & killing it quicker, nuff said,

Anything else you`d like to waste our time with sega?

Glad i didn`t sell my fortefighter / fortegunner or fortetecher weapons :)

Wow, what an in depth look at Master classes!!! Where have you been throughout this whole thread because this is the post we've been waiting for!!!!

In ONE isolated and easy instance (De Ragan fight) FF out performed FM. Well, this proof just seals the deal: All Master classes suck.

Thank you VERY much for proving this fact....

P.S. If you can't read the sarcasm in every single sentence above, you should really get your reading comprehension checked.

[redroses]

I think a lot of unexpierenced players are coming into these topics and complaining about the Masterclasses. I think a lot of people were thinking something totally wrong. A lot of players can't seem to understand that the Masterclasses were never ment to replace the Forteclasses. The Masterclasses play just as differently as the Acro, Hybrid and Forte classes do. Masterclasses are just a new OPTION not a MUST! If you do not like MasterForce just go back to FT.

@SupaHype
You seem quite ignorant to me. A lot of people told you take into consideration that the speed and the 50 level PA's make MF stronger in the long run (or Ra TECHNICs hitting 5 targets etc.). But you completly ignore that and always come up with your explantion of comparing your FT Diga to your MF Diga. Which will be weaker as the TP of MF is weaker, but a MF can throw 3 Digas while the FT is just doing the animation to their second. So this could mean, that you will be 2 seconds faster on every monster. But as you seem to only want BIG NUMBERS maybe you should switch to FF/FM and throw some Jabroga around. Because you are not even comparing other TECHNICs but only Diga, which should not be your importants TECHNIC. You should also know that you will need a completly different Playstyle with MF than with FT. Just as you will need to play different with other classes. MF is not a FT...but a new class which needs a own playstyle. If you play MF right, MF is stronger than a FT, but if you play it wrong, and you only worry about big numbers than stay FT. Also try to play in parties with AT that will even help your MF more. And if you also want your MF to be able to do support than you should really consider going FT again. I like the fact that MF doesnt have to support anymore and you can just play and have fun. It doesn't always have to be fastest time and biggest numbers. And no matter what, even if MF did bigger numbers than a FT you would still be slower than any fighting class and anyone would most likely suggest using a fighter if you want to do missions in high speed.

Anyway, SupaHype, just really read some of the posts here and what they are stating about MF and don't be so locked up in big numbers and Diga only.

[amtalx]

spent a while today comparing a lv150 fortefighter 20 and a lv150 fighmaster 20 on the de ragan hitting it with a capped jabroga ( 40 for fortefighter & 50 for fighmaster )
both using the very same axe.


Car Analogy Translation: My Prius beat my Lambo in the quarter-mile because I suck at driving stick.

If you are using the same equipment on a FM and fF with slower results on the FM, its because of operator error or you couldn't kill De Ragan because it started flying, or something like that.

[the sega shop]

actually i was the fighmaster 20 & my friend was using his fortefighter 20

all damage was done using critical hits,

and ass for me sucking at driving stick i have to lol, since i`ve never driven an auto in my life and never plan too either, us british aren`t as lazy as other nations ( no names mentioned )

and as for trying to accuse me of being lame at the game, i suppose i am for the 4000+ hours i`ve put into it now, And yes i must be flogged for not having capped all 4 of my chars yet

although 3 of them are 140+ and the 4th is 130+

Anyone who flames me from now on is either a noob or a nobody

so.. say what?

[amtalx]

Hours != Skill. I know players with more hours than you, but don't know a Axe from a hole in the ground. Similarly, there are a number of players with only a handful of hours that demonstrate an excellent knowledge of the battle system simply because they are smart and can assemble solid strategies. Just because one plays a lot, doesn't mean one is actually learning and progressing as a player. FM has higher DPS with an Axe than fF. End of story. You can argue ability and equipment all you want, the math doesn't lie. So if the fF is killing the same enemy faster, than the FM either has weaker equipment, or is doing something wrong.

[ashley50]

that 4000+ Hours might be from AFKing in lobbies :l

[Delete]

I see some people are saying, well if you dont like it, then stay fortecher. What you guys dont realize is that even if these classes arent the next forms of the forte classes, they still have the lvl 50 spells, meaning people dont actually have a choice in some areas. Some techers, (alot) i see have had there spells level 40 for a very long time, whats the use if you cant level em up to 41 right? O, and the buffs like someone said earlier, thats gotta be a joke too. Pointing out the obvious, this class only offers lvl 50 spells, everything else sucks.

Im not saying give the class more damage or lvl 50 buffs etc, im saying pick one,not both. Then it seems balanced out.

[AweOfShe]

that 4000+ Hours might be from AFKing in lobbies :l

... Or spent here, bitching about game mechanics on how a class isn't made a way they wanted it to be made. Because, you know..... we all know Preference = Balance.



Anyone who flames me from now on is either a noob or a nobody


Stop it! You are SCARING me!

[Billy Mitchell]

they still have the lvl 50 spells, meaning people dont actually have a choice in some areas.I'm not sure you know what a "choice" is.

[SupaHype]

I think a lot of unexpierenced players are coming into these topics and complaining about the Masterclasses. I think a lot of people were thinking something totally wrong. A lot of players can't seem to understand that the Masterclasses were never ment to replace the Forteclasses. The Masterclasses play just as differently as the Acro, Hybrid and Forte classes do. Masterclasses are just a new OPTION not a MUST! If you do not like MasterForce just go back to FT.

@SupaHype
You seem quite ignorant to me. A lot of people told you take into consideration that the speed and the 50 level PA's make MF stronger in the long run (or Ra TECHNICs hitting 5 targets etc.). But you completly ignore that and always come up with your explantion of comparing your FT Diga to your MF Diga. Which will be weaker as the TP of MF is weaker, but a MF can throw 3 Digas while the FT is just doing the animation to their second. So this could mean, that you will be 2 seconds faster on every monster. But as you seem to only want BIG NUMBERS maybe you should switch to FF/FM and throw some Jabroga around. Because you are not even comparing other TECHNICs but only Diga, which should not be your importants TECHNIC. You should also know that you will need a completly different Playstyle with MF than with FT. Just as you will need to play different with other classes. MF is not a FT...but a new class which needs a own playstyle. If you play MF right, MF is stronger than a FT, but if you play it wrong, and you only worry about big numbers than stay FT. Also try to play in parties with AT that will even help your MF more. And if you also want your MF to be able to do support than you should really consider going FT again. I like the fact that MF doesnt have to support anymore and you can just play and have fun. It doesn't always have to be fastest time and biggest numbers. And no matter what, even if MF did bigger numbers than a FT you would still be slower than any fighting class and anyone would most likely suggest using a fighter if you want to do missions in high speed.

Anyway, SupaHype, just really read some of the posts here and what they are stating about MF and don't be so locked up in big numbers and Diga only.


WHAT.... Amai i was really just going to leave everything alone and just Meet JAF and play peacefully. But i think your comment was a little out of order. Ive played as a force since DAY 1 of this game. If you havent Put some significant time into the force class (at LEAST several hundred hours)... then you are in no position to even comment to me. If you havent gone from FT 20 to MF, then you are in many cases not even capable of understanding what im saying. Thats not to say that no one can understand this without actually feeling the change, but if you are stating that i seem ignorant to you, after all the reasons and stats i listed, then something is wrong with you.

I play this Character Amai.... i dont have to read about the differences, I play the differences... And no the speed is a slight increase more like 5 (FT) to 6 (MF) check you tube... ... You would know this if you PLAYED the class, not just read about it.

Are you even a force... what level are you/your spells.

Have you actually PLAYED the differences, or are you just reading the stuff from posts and hearing this from others.

I didnt just come in ranting, no i listed the stat differences. You dont have to fully agree with me as there is some realm of opinion here. But if you missed this, then most of this is going way over your head.... Get some force hours first then come back and post with a little more experience in yours statement. I have over 1000 as a force alone... i know what im talking about. Like i said you dont have to agree with all, but lets not pretend like im not saying anything that makes sense.

And any one knows that diga is an easy spell to track damage with. thats why i chose to mention it... Experience would have told you that.... I have 16 other attack spells IN MY PALLET that i use regularly, 13 of them over level 31. and RA-Spells arent the only ones that techers use....

Read all my posts... i go into extreme detail on what im saying...

[redroses]

WHAT.... Amai i was really just going to leave everything alone and just Meet JAF and play peacefully. But i think your comment was a little out of order. Ive played as a force since DAY 1 of this game. If you havent Put some significant time into the force class (at LEAST several hundred hours)... then you are in no position to even comment to me. If you havent gone from FT 20 to MF, then you are in many cases not even capable of understanding what im saying. Thats not to say that no one can understand this without actually feeling the change, but if you are stating that i seem ignorant to you, after all the reasons and stats i listed, then something is wrong with you.

I play this Character Amai.... i dont have to read about the differences, I play the differences... And no the speed is a slight increase more like 5 (FT) to 6 (MF) check you tube... ... You would know this if you PLAYED the class, not just read about it.

Are you even a force... what level are you/your spells.

Have you actually PLAYED the differences, or are you just reading the stuff from posts and hearing this from others.

I didnt just come in ranting, no i listed the stat differences. You dont have to fully agree with me as there is some realm of opinion here. But if you missed this, then most of this is going way over your head.... Get some force hours first then come back and post with a little more experience in yours statement. I have over 1000 as a force alone... i know what im talking about. Like i said you dont have to agree with all, but lets not pretend like im not saying anything that makes sense.

And any one knows that diga is an easy spell to track damage with. thats why i chose to mention it... Experience would have told you that.... I have 16 other attack spells IN MY PALLET that i use regularly, 13 of them over level 31. and RA-Spells arent the only ones that techers use....

Read all my posts... i go into extreme detail on what im saying...

The first part of your comment (If you havent Put some significant time into the force class (at LEAST several hundred hours)... then you are in no position to even comment to me.) is why I say you are ignorant. Just because you have 1000+ hours doesn't make you the best player or even a good one. And being so stuck up isn't really nice. Because you could have 5000+ hours and I wouldn't care, as that tells me nothing about you except that you have much time on your hands, what you do with that time in PSU is something different. I won't tell you how many hours I have on my Force as that should have nothing to do with anything.

What I was trying to say is that you made this Topic only stating how weak MF is to FT, by comparing Diga. Why don't you compare a MF Dambarta to that of a FT? Or MF Radiga to FT Radiga? Or at least compare Diga between the two in a timeframe of ten seconds and see who shots more Diga and sum it up.

And no where have I said that I (or any other Techers) only use Ra-spells or should just use Ra-spells, so that part of your comment is weird. I think the only time I mentioned Ra-spells was when I said they hit 5 Targets as MF.

And I do think you should get some more Spells over lv 41. I do not know how many you have over lv 41. but I think from your post you only have Diga over 41? If that is so, than you should really get more TECHs over 41 to really be able to compare MF to FT. I am not saying this to be rude or anything! I just think you should maybe consider doing this, because other wise you aren't comparing FT and MF fair in my opionion.

I am really not trying to be rude, but I also think it's not fair of you to say MF is shitty if you don't compare MF fair to FT.

[SupaHype]

The first part of your comment (If you havent Put some significant time into the force class (at LEAST several hundred hours)... then you are in no position to even comment to me.) is why I say you are ignorant. Just because you have 1000+ hours doesn't make you the best player or even a good one. And being so stuck up isn't really nice. Because you could have 5000+ hours and I wouldn't care, as that tells me nothing about you except that you have much time on your hands, what you do with that time in PSU is something different. I won't tell you how many hours I have on my Force as that should have nothing to do with anything.

What I was trying to say is that you made this Topic only stating how weak MF is to FT, by comparing Diga. Why don't you compare a MF Dambarta to that of a FT? Or MF Radiga to FT Radiga? Or at least compare Diga between the two in a timeframe of ten seconds and see who shots more Diga and sum it up.

And no where have I said that I (or any other Techers) only use Ra-spells or should just use Ra-spells, so that part of your comment is weird. I think the only time I mentioned Ra-spells was when I said they hit 5 Targets as MF.

And I do think you should get some more Spells over lv 41. I do not know how many you have over lv 41. but I think from your post you only have Diga over 41? If that is so, than you should really get more TECHs over 41 to really be able to compare MF to FT. I am not saying this to be rude or anything! I just think you should maybe consider doing this, because other wise you aren't comparing FT and MF fair in my opionion.

I am really not trying to be rude, but I also think it's not fair of you to say MF is shitty if you don't compare MF fair to FT.


Ok Amai, i didnt say it was S*itty, i said it needed adjusting. Not that it was all bad, just that it needed work. the Cons outweigh the pros... a little too much.

I actually have 6 or 7 techs over 41, not just diga... again, 13 total over 31, im on the game now in Parum east, uni 2 if you want to check, I never ever ever said im the best Phantasy star Player, Never anything like it, But if you do something for 1000 hours then you have to have at least some familiarity with it. And there are alot more people who have logged more hours than me.

All the techs do less damage not just Diga. If you played as any other class then switched and you did less damage when all the posts say you are supposed to do more, then you might feel a little odd about that too. and check the you tube post for the speed difference, its not that much. an FT with a Har Quick is nearly the same speed. (that even cuts away another MF bonus).

I dont question your time as a force to make u feel bad, we all had lower level Char at some point. I have a FG who is like 75, but i aint here complaining about his shortcomings, i dont think ive done enough with him to do so... But i have with FT, I said that so you could actually feel the difference in game and not just read it on paper. You also called me ignorant, that was rude, especially if i have more experience with the certain character type than you do. NOT all of PSU or video games in general, just the FT MF switch.

i didnt post this to start an argument, just to make a petition to sega that i felt that this needed adjusting. Just like people make Shenmue 3 petitions and others. When Grinding broke weapons someone petitioned and sega fixed it. When cheating occurred people complained (some did) and sega fixed it. When we werent getting updates for months someone petitioned and sega fixed it. Im sure some called that person names but im glad he did cause we started getting updates faster. We pay every month for updates to this game, so if something aint working right, we shouldnt just accept it the way that it is, we should petition sega to fix it. And thats what i did. This ruckus we all started might possible cause sega to make the adjustments necessary to make the class more fun to play in the end. I dont think ive ever heard anyone say that the force clases are TOO POWERFUL.. so hopefully we will get something. Try to look at my letter that way.

[BahnKnakyu]

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!

[Inazuma]

SupaHype, calm down for a bit and try to understand me here. you keep saying FT does more damage than MF but you arent looking at the big picture. the 2 most important things when it comes to figuring out damage are power and speed. you need to consider both of them when determining actual damage.

i did some tests before and figured out that MF casts click techs 17% faster than FT. now if you take this speed into consideration when comparing the 2 types, you will see that MF is really the one putting out more damage overall.

now if we have an open mind and factor in everything, which includes using buff items as MF, higher SE numbers, more targets, longer duration of hold techs, hitting more often thanks to more range/size/speed etc, and not forgetting about FT being able to boost its stats 7% higher than MF, MF ends up being roughly 20% to 30% stronger than FT.

*edit* i have about 8 thousand hours of psu force experience, in case you were wondering.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

*edit* i have about 8 thousand hours of psu force experience, in case you were wondering.
Time spent AFKing your techs doesn't count as experience...

[amtalx]

*sigh*

Why does everyone try to equate lots of play time with being good? Guess what? People with low IDs suck too. But since we are using faulty logic, my ID # is 79, so I'M BETTAR THAN U.

[darkante]

*sigh*

Why does everyone try to equate lots of play time with being good?
Because, they think one will get automaticely better if you spent more time playing.
Sure, that can help a bit, but this game isn´t that complicated so anyone can easiely have just as good stragegi at a much shorter time.

It´s all about brain power not playtime.

[SupaHype]

SupaHype, calm down for a bit and try to understand me here. you keep saying FT does more damage than MF but you arent looking at the big picture. the 2 most important things when it comes to figuring out damage are power and speed. you need to consider both of them when determining actual damage.

i did some tests before and figured out that MF casts click techs 17% faster than FT. now if you take this speed into consideration when comparing the 2 types, you will see that MF is really the one putting out more damage overall.

now if we have an open mind and factor in everything, which includes using buff items as MF, higher SE numbers, more targets, longer duration of hold techs, hitting more often thanks to more range/size/speed etc, and not forgetting about FT being able to boost its stats 7% higher than MF, MF ends up being roughly 20% to 30% stronger than FT.

*edit* i have about 8 thousand hours of psu force experience, in case you were wondering.

That casting figure of 17% makes sense.... people have been posting 2 of 3 for FT vs MF. thats about 5 of 6 like i mentioned.


Hey Inazuma Thanks for the logical response. How are you feeling about the class overall... MF. Im going to max out the class (im at 12) and hopefully wait for sega to at least give me 2000 HP... :). Maybe i can avoid more 1 hit kills...1 hit kills at level 150 that didnt happen at 140 are somewhat frustrating... Thanks again....

[SupaHype]

SupaHype, calm down for a bit and try to understand me here. you keep saying FT does more damage than MF but you arent looking at the big picture. the 2 most important things when it comes to figuring out damage are power and speed. you need to consider both of them when determining actual damage.

i did some tests before and figured out that MF casts click techs 17% faster than FT. now if you take this speed into consideration when comparing the 2 types, you will see that MF is really the one putting out more damage overall.

now if we have an open mind and factor in everything, which includes using buff items as MF, higher SE numbers, more targets, longer duration of hold techs, hitting more often thanks to more range/size/speed etc, and not forgetting about FT being able to boost its stats 7% higher than MF, MF ends up being roughly 20% to 30% stronger than FT.

*edit* i have about 8 thousand hours of psu force experience, in case you were wondering.


Hey Inazuma Thanks for the logical response. How are you feeling about the class overall... MF. Im going to max out the class (im at 12) and hopefully wait for sega to at least give me 2000 HP... :). Maybe i can avoid more 1 hit kills...1 hit kills at level 150 that didnt happen at 140 are somewhat frustrating... Thanks again.... and good work on that 8000, it shows in your response..

[Shou]

If you are a human male like me you will have 2085 HP at lvl 20. Your stats hardly grow at all for MF from lvl 1 - 20

With good armor (like a low 30 high 20% s rank) you can take about 2 and a half hit from the normal enemies. Even then you can still be two-shotted.

[biggabertha]

I really like the way things have gone on with this thread - there's really a lot to read and while it's easy to see the logical differences, it's difficult to pick a side.

It took me SO long to figure out how a Shotgun beats the living snot out of Spinning Strike for damage that it makes sense why some people whom see a larger number emerging from Diga casted by a Fortetecher (solo) thinks it's far stronger and better than the Masterforce doing the same thing.

The survivability though, is a MAJOR issue for PS2 players. After casting the second Ra spell, the group of enemies register the hit then immediately warp/relocate to another area when the PS2 catches up with the high end PC player and then there goes your high DPS argument.

Shame really, Master Classes seem more fitting for PC players that can cope with the strain that PSU puts on switching weapons (twitching floors) and enemies running/hovering/jumping/hopping/charging around. So for us PS2 players in large groups, Forte types are better for us because we only get a few chances to hit them when they spawn.

Our PS2s can't load a weapon in time for that precious two or three seconds when a group of five enemies are lined up so a Laser/Barta/Zonde/Megid does a good deal of DPS then switch back to Shotgun/Ra/Nos/Dam TECHNICs...

Sometimes, your PS2 will be nice to you and load your weapon in time, sometimes it won't but it's nowhere near as fast/good as a PC/360 doing it.

Master classes are for the very best of the best players in-game and in real life. You kinda need a top notch PC/reliable 360 that won't red ring on you, in order to fully take advantage of the options that you have to begin with.

Fighmasters get fastest results when using Tornado Dance to zip from one spot to another then using Anga Jabroga to clear entire groups of enemies with Dus Majarra to finish them off if there are any survivors. You RELY on the quick changing weapons for that and in order to out-do a Fortefighter, you need Lv. 50 PAs and high end equipment (we're talking 42%+ equipment).

Gunmaster gets best results with Lv. 50 PAs and 11* or 12* equipment. Sure, 10* equipment gets the job done but Double-shotting with a Shigga Baret against say... an Ubakrada or Carriguines just annihilate them in a few shots compared to the Fortegunner's option of using Dus Daggas or Dus Majarra or even Barada Megiga/Yoga. The elemental boost and the attack boost that Gunmaster gets is just awesome and puts them far above the other two master classes boost-wise. They take AGES to level up though....

And it's the same with Masterforce. You can't consistently keep enemies lined up/not moving whilst using a PS2. Or well, not with my one anyway but it's WORLDS easier on my laptop (and even then, it's a Mac).


But on topic- the classes are decent, sure, they could do with some tweaking but until then, how about just playing with something you're more familiar with? Afterall, we're not paying for your GUARDIANs' License.

[sovalou]

loling at the people who think level 50 atk techs with level 10 buffs out damages level 40 atk techs and level 40 buffs.:lol:

[biggabertha]

loling at the people who think level 50 atk techs with level 10 buffs out damages level 40 atk techs and level 40 buffs.:lol:

So uhm... team up with an Acrotecher, Guntecher, Wartecher or even another Fortetecher then. Or if you solo, you can still use Agtarides, Defbarides, Zodiarides, Retardies and Megistarides.

This is like, an online game afterall where you can play with other people.

If you want to solo and not use any items at all, fair enough, be a Forte type but know that you won't be clearing missions faster than a competent Master type of the same group.

[Inazuma]

That casting figure of 17% makes sense.... people have been posting 2 of 3 for FT vs MF. thats about 5 of 6 like i mentioned.


Hey Inazuma Thanks for the logical response. How are you feeling about the class overall... MF. Im going to max out the class (im at 12) and hopefully wait for sega to at least give me 2000 HP... :). Maybe i can avoid more 1 hit kills...1 hit kills at level 150 that didnt happen at 140 are somewhat frustrating... Thanks again....

if you want to use techs, MF would be your best choice. comparing em to other techer types, they are awesome.

and now w/ that outta the way...

the sad truth is, MF cannot benefit a party of good players due to the type's limits. ive been trying so hard to be the best MF i can be, and ive literally maxed out the types offensive abilities but still fall far short when i play w/ good FM and GM players. ive been holding out for a rebalance for so long but it never comes. at this point, i think ive decided to ditch MF and start rasing a new male cast FM. about a month ago, i tried out FM w/ my female newman and played it enough to max out the type and majarra. i was using cheap half ass equip i bought w/ like only 100m meseta or so and yet, i had arguably surpassed a perfect MF w/ it. im sorry but thats just terrible balance.

instead of stubbornly clinging to a weak char w/ the hope for a rebalance, i need to face the facts and play psu by its own rules. male cast is the best choice for the 3 top types in the game, FM GM and PR. thats where its at. as much as i hate to say it, female newman MF cannot come anywhere close to male cast FM. being the best at techs is nice but when it comes down to it, you only slow down the others. other players may not mind that, but personally it really upsets me to not be able to help out my team and instead feel like im just leeching off of their hard work. i want to be good at psu and that means NOT playing as MF >_>

i used to think that FM was around twice as good as MF but thats b/c i didnt have much experience playing w/ really good FMs. the truly good FM's dont even play w/ MFs in the party, b/c they know they will only slow em down. it seems that FM is really closer to 5 times better than MF. not only does FM do way the hell more damage, they survive better plus move around the map a lot faster. oh, lets not forget paradi. MF is not a good char choice for the player who wants to kill monsters fast and be the best they can at the game, which is why i need to just step up and play the game for what it really is.

*midori is going thru a psu mid life crisis here but hopefully will be ok later when his FM grows up*

[Rayokarna]

MF takes more out of my laptop than the enemies anyway.

[Shou]

Truth

:sad:

[SupaHype]

If you are a human male like me you will have 2085 HP at lvl 20. Your stats hardly grow at all for MF from lvl 1 - 20

With good armor (like a low 30 high 20% s rank) you can take about 2 and a half hit from the normal enemies. Even then you can still be two-shotted.


Naw show, Im a female newman. its bad for us on the HP now. Im level 148, MF 12 with 1764HP. even at 150 and MF 20 i highly doubt i will be at 2000 HP maybe 1850 or 1900. This is a drop from FT 20 Level 140, having 2550 hp.

[Magus_84]

Naw show, Im a female newman. its bad for us on the HP now. Im level 148, MF 12 with 1764HP. even at 150 and MF 20 i highly doubt i will be at 2000 HP maybe 1850 or 1900. This is a drop from FT 20 Level 140, having 2550 hp.

If amesani's simulator is right, a Newman Female 150/20 Masterforce will have 1890 HP.

[Billy Mitchell]

*sigh*

Why does everyone try to equate lots of play time with being good? Guess what? People with low IDs suck too. But since we are using faulty logic, my ID # is 79, so I'M BETTAR THAN U.

Don't be ridiculous.

We all know that what makes a 360 player good is how many s+10s he bought during the glitch period and subsequently how many 10/10s, 50%s, and other uber-rares he has since accumulated with their bs meseta from using and/or selling said grinders.

[JAFO22000]

Don't be ridiculous.

We all know that what makes a 360 player good is how many s+10s he bought during the glitch period and subsequently how many 10/10s, 50%s, and other uber-rares he has since accumulated with their bs meseta from using and/or selling said grinders.

Don't forget being able to clear a mission as fast as humanly possible. Fun of playing a class has no room in this game.

On other topics, I showed up on Friday to meet up with SupaHype. I saw his character and tried to contact him but he must've been AFK'ing. He is by no means an expert force. I saw that he did not have all of the techs (he's missing at least one from each family) and the techs he does have aren't well leveled (well, not enough for me to consider him an "expert"), did not have any wands in his pallette, was wearing an ice Feril Line with a percentage in the teens, was wearing an Orpa/Force instead of a Har/Quick or Har/Smart, still had multiple bow PAs equipped, etc.

While he has every right to an opinion about MF, I don't think that he's put himself in a position to be an expert in the field. Level you techs and use all of them effectively as well as concentrating on SPEED as a MF and you'll find the class more enjoyable.

[Sexy_Raine]

if you want to use techs, MF would be your best choice. comparing em to other techer types, they are awesome.

and now w/ that outta the way...

the sad truth is, MF cannot benefit a party of good players due to the type's limits. ive been trying so hard to be the best MF i can be, and ive literally maxed out the types offensive abilities but still fall far short when i play w/ good FM and GM players. ive been holding out for a rebalance for so long but it never comes. at this point, i think ive decided to ditch MF and start rasing a new male cast FM. about a month ago, i tried out FM w/ my female newman and played it enough to max out the type and majarra. i was using cheap half ass equip i bought w/ like only 100m meseta or so and yet, i had arguably surpassed a perfect MF w/ it. im sorry but thats just terrible balance.

instead of stubbornly clinging to a weak char w/ the hope for a rebalance, i need to face the facts and play psu by its own rules. male cast is the best choice for the 3 top types in the game, FM GM and PR. thats where its at. as much as i hate to say it, female newman MF cannot come anywhere close to male cast FM. being the best at techs is nice but when it comes down to it, you only slow down the others. other players may not mind that, but personally it really upsets me to not be able to help out my team and instead feel like im just leeching off of their hard work. i want to be good at psu and that means NOT playing as MF >_>

i used to think that FM was around twice as good as MF but thats b/c i didnt have much experience playing w/ really good FMs. the truly good FM's dont even play w/ MFs in the party, b/c they know they will only slow em down. it seems that FM is really closer to 5 times better than MF. not only does FM do way the hell more damage, they survive better plus move around the map a lot faster. oh, lets not forget paradi. MF is not a good char choice for the player who wants to kill monsters fast and be the best they can at the game, which is why i need to just step up and play the game for what it really is.

*midori is going thru a psu mid life crisis here but hopefully will be ok later when his FM grows up*

Agree 110%. I'll be bandwagoning to Gunmaster as soon as everything is maxed.
Skill =/=Reward as far as MF goes. It's far from balanced.
The only people who say it's ok are those who never even played it fully. And scrubby alts don't count. Let this topic die now and accept the truth.

[Calsetes]

Assuming my ranger can use S-rank armor when she gets fortegunner and guntecher to 20, she's going straight to gunmaster. Although the more I think about it, the more tempted I am to make a cast masterforce, just for shits and giggles.

[Ryock]

Sorry if all of this has already been said previously, as I don't feel like reading through 16 pages of messages before making a reply, but this reply is to the original poster anyways. I feel I must tell this person why they're wrong. After playing Masterforce from the day it was released, I can say without a doubt, offensively, MF is better than FT.

Let's address the stat differences first.
People are fooled by seeing large numbers from their techs. Well, drop the rod, pick up a Pushan, and get those aoe techs to 41+. The speed boost is incredibly significant, which is why we see the lower TP from FT. We don't need the ATP or the ATA, so whatever. That's out of the way. The dropped evasion is actually a benefit depending on how you look at it. I see it as a huge benefit since it means I won't have to worry about evading when I'm casting my dam(damu, whatever you wanna call em) spells or Megiverse. If techs got crits on evasion, then yeah, I'd be upset that FT has more EVP. We get a lot more DFP now, so that's a plus. We lose a lot of HP, yeah, but I can see why if I'm constantly flinching and blinding my enemies. Otherwise, we have more MST, so whoo. The STA is really the only problem I see. But all Masters deal with it, and I have thus far. Just play smarter.

I'd also like to stress that yes... it does in fact matter if your techs are 41+. Many of the techs, the RA techs especially, get higher SEs added to them, as well as a bigger aoe. All RA techs also hit 5 targets instead of 4. A smart MF will be able to run right through a mission a lot faster than an FT will if they just know what they're doing. Get those last 10 levels of MF. They do in fact matter. FT is just the most well balanced. Best of both worlds, but it does not get the speed boost of AT or MF, so it can lose out on damage and support sometimes.

Long wall of text short. Master classes require you to play smarter. They're PSU's definition of double-edged sword.

[Aries2384]

They won't get updated. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. The only "Update" or adjustment we will see is the visual tech nerf. It is a good thing.
I repeat again, they will not be adjusted/rebalanced/updated/blenderated/molested(well..maybe)/ or anything else that will initially change them. MF is one thing: Speed. It is nothing else.
Go cry elsewhere.

[darkante]

As much as a like speedy parties, it really takes away the fun when i´m barely getting an hit on before stuff dies. That makes me grumpy.

I would like to avoid spending more money to upgrade my PC, but whenever 2 Masterforces decides to wreck havoc with their lv 41 techs spamm...i´m in lag world! This makes me even more grumpy. I don´t mind them MF, i just feel like destroying my PC to bits at that point.
I rarely have issues otherwise at all.

[Gen2000]

Heh...crazy thread. All the problems of FT transferred over to MF and people acting like it's something new.

MF is the best offensive nuker but the problem is that being the best offensive nuker still sucks because attack techs in general sucks unless you plan on playing Sleeping Warriors or other similar crappy missions forever. The effort needed to balance that out is too much, a new game is needed. I already accepted that long ago and saw this backlash coming about MF.

[MoorePSO]

Just fix techs that hit multiple targets to hit multiple hitboxes on a single target and problem solved all the way around.

[Calsetes]

The only possible problem I see with that (and I mean almost literally the only problem) would be people who think that laser cannons should do that too. I personally could go either way on the thing - the point of an AoE is to hit multiple creatures in the vicinity, not multiple hitboxes on the same creature. You'd want a single-target spell for that. However, classes do get weapons that do hit multiple boxes on the same target (i.e. just about all melee PAs and a few guns).

Maybe they should increase the tech elemental damage percentage to creatures of an opposing (or similar) element - make it worth the while to use a ground spell on an electric creature or vice-versa.

Then again, I haven't really played a tech-heavy class in this, so I have little actual experience, just trying to snowball some ideas from an "outsider" viewpoint.

[Ezodagrom]

I would say give ratechs, gitechs, noszonde and nosmegid the ability to hit multiple spots of big enemies and bosses.

If techs like Barta, Zonde and Megid would also hit multiple spots of big enemies, then there would be ppl complaining about laser cannons and slicers not doing that too.

[desturel]

Maybe they should increase the tech elemental damage percentage to creatures of an opposing (or similar) element - make it worth the while to use a ground spell on an electric creature or vice-versa.

That would be nice, except there aren't techs for every element. There's no Damzonde. Regrant, the only offensive light spell, would kill a master force in one volley if the damage was increased anymore. Foie and Diga don't come in Ice, Lightning, Dark and Light varieties. Barta Megid, Zonde, also don't come in Fire, Ground, and Light varieties.

There's a bit of a gap where a techer has no choice but to use the incorrect element vs. the enemy. On Dark missions, you have no choice but to use a different element most of the time, meaning you'll never get your maximum damage.

That's on top of techers not having a boss killer. About the only boss a techer can kill faster than a Gunmaster is Mother Brain. That leaves a whole slew of other boss characters that Gunmaster can slaughter faster. That's not even including Fighmasters.

[Cracka_J]

Man, this whole thread has gone from bad to pathetic.

Have any of you even played a fighting game on a competitive level before? There's these things called tier lists...they rate the best characters to the worst based on top level play using the characters. Let's take SF3: third strike for example. According to tiers, chun-li/ken are sitting at the top as god tier. Under this ridiculous PSU example some of you are settiing, NO OTHER CHARACTERS IN THE GAME SHOULD BE USED BESIDES CHUN LI AND KEN. But that's not the case. Major tourneys are even won on occasion by low tier characters.

But how does this happen, you ask? Wouldn't everyone that wants to play the game at the highest level only pick those 2 characters?!? Why are people still using the others?!? Well, there's one reason for that, and one reason only: VARIETY.

Shit gets boring. If you want to whore out and switch to M cast FM, nobody is stopping you. It's better, so why not just delete your character, sell your MF stuff or gib rarz, and stfu already. Seriously, if you feel so strongly about it, just do it. In terms of the SF3 situation, you guys are literally comparing Chun to Twelve...yes, one is literally terrible on paper, and is most likely to lose the match, but one of the two also offers a helluva lot more variety and fun then hitting down forward > super.

I thought the whole point of the PSO/U experience was to create an original character that fit your personal playstyle, regardless of what kind of DPS you were doing. Under the logic in this thread, you should all be playing HOMGDPS MALE CAST FM UNIVERSE. Eff that bs, that's not what I signed up for, and not how I want to play. I'm not letting a few sour techers with FM envy dictate which characters I should play, and how I should play them. I get to choose how I want to play the game. If I didn't have that choice, I would have never even played the PS series to begin with.

[redroses]

Man, this whole thread has gone from bad to pathetic.

Have any of you even played a fighting game on a competitive level before? There's these things called tier lists...they rate the best characters to the worst based on top level play using the characters. Let's take SF3: third strike for example. According to tiers, chun-li/ken are sitting at the top as god tier. Under this ridiculous PSU example some of you are settiing, NO OTHER CHARACTERS IN THE GAME SHOULD BE USED BESIDES CHUN LI AND KEN. But that's not the case. Major tourneys are even won on occasion by low tier characters.

But how does this happen, you ask? Wouldn't everyone that wants to play the game at the highest level only pick those 2 characters?!? Why are people still using the others?!? Well, there's one reason for that, and one reason only: VARIETY.

Shit gets boring. If you want to whore out and switch to M cast FM, nobody is stopping you. It's better, so why not just delete your character, sell your MF stuff or gib rarz, and stfu already. Seriously, if you feel so strongly about it, just do it. In terms of the SF3 situation, you guys are literally comparing Chun to Twelve...yes, one is literally terrible on paper, and is most likely to lose the match, but one of the two also offers a helluva lot more variety and fun then hitting down forward > super.

I thought the whole point of the PSO/U experience was to create an original character that fit your personal playstyle, regardless of what kind of DPS you were doing. Under the logic in this thread, you should all be playing HOMGDPS MALE CAST FM UNIVERSE. Eff that bs, that's not what I signed up for, and not how I want to play. I'm not letting a few sour techers with FM envy dictate which characters I should play, and how I should play them. I get to choose how I want to play the game. If I didn't have that choice, I would have never even played the PS series to begin with.

I have to fully agree. I still remember threads flying around with people wanting to be unique class/race type wise. Not only for the unique factor but because they felt happy and good playing a Cast MF or a Newman FM or Newman FiG and they wanted to show people that big numbers isn't the only thing that matters but more importantly Individuality and fun or the skills of a player that knows what he is doing.

If everybody is sooo worried about big numbers and dps we should only have (like has Cracka said) Male Cast FM and Beast FF or some shit.

But to make everything worse! Than every once in a while a Thread pops up about how easy this game is and OMG! GIB Challenge! And than everybody wants to go play the easiest class race type combo there is out there.

It really makes me sad that people want to ditch their MF for a FM or whatever. I mean, from my point of view, everybody should've known how much MF will lose compared to the other Masterclasses. And who thought otherwise was a fool. BUT I thought everyone who goes MF or FT know they will never compete against a fighter(or even ranger)class, and that they choose these classes because they are fun for them and they can still be good at them and try to get better so that they atleast can compete skill wise with other classes.

Either way, if you ditch the class you really wanted to be just because of some dps and big numbers shit I feel sorry and sad for you :l

[Gen2000]

To some it's not even being the best DPS, just being decent and not feeling like the game is giving you the short end of the stick. Yeah Yun/Chun/Ken are god tiers of 3S, but some Makato/Urien/Ryu/Yang players make impressive tourney placements and even some upsets. There is (or was) a Twelve player rocked a few pro japanese players for a while. It takes a lot of work to even get wins vs. JPN players...even more so as Twelve. No matter how much work you put into MF it's still pretty awful, again unless the mission is full of go bajiira/golmoros or such enemies.

PSU's force class is more like playing Sean.

[Cracka_J]

The problem with that analogy is that in third strike, anyone who is good enough at parry can beat any other player.

So dps automatically defines "how good you are" at PSU.

Because there's really no other defining factors. There's no pvp, no mindgames, no human competition. Just a computer you can mercilessly beatdown any time you want to. Is something so freaking trivial the reason why you play the game? Is it something worth determining which classes are better and which suck? Not at all, and I know for damn sure it isn't the reason I play.

Yes, I like to have good techs, good pas, good equips, and I like to feel like I'm being a useful part of a party. But what does all that combined do if I'm not playing how I want to and having fun. Seriously?

Oh btw, there's one fun fact people always forget about the super happy fun daigo parry video...he lost the tourney.

[spoiler-box]

Street Fighter III: Third Strike



KO (Yun SA III)
Daigo Umehara (Ken SA III)
Justin Wong (Chun-Li SA II)

SOURCE (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Evolution_2004)
[/spoiler-box]

[dexter_safe]

i got to like page 8 of this thread couldn't be bothered to read it all.this thread should have ended like over 12 pages ago. is this thread really if the master classes need changing or how many msg's u can fit in a thread o.0.

[Inazuma]

cracka J, you make some good points but its not a fair analogy for two reasons.

first off, the chars in a fighting game may not be balanced, but at least they are somewhat balanced. you wouldnt have one character dealing 5 times the damage as another, or recieving 5 times as much damage as another. and you wouldnt have two chars that are basically the same, w/ similar moves, but one is way faster and stronger than the other.

and the other reason is, like you mentioned, its at least POSSIBLE for a lower tier fighting game char to beat a higher tier one. however in psu, FM (and GM) are so much better than MF, even the most perfect MF possible cannot hope to beat a decent FM or GM. the gap is way the hell too massive. thats the problem here.

skill is important to psu, but race, type, stats and equip make all the difference in the world.

techs were very fun for me but its not at all fun to feel like a worthless sack of shit in parties. its just not worth it. anyway, my cast is now lv 32 and already doing extremely well w/ my low levels and A rank items. it wont be long before i surpass every MF in the world and im looking forward to it :P

[Ezodagrom]

My opinion, make ratechs, gitechs, noszonde and nosmegid hit multiple targets of big enemies, lower the ATP mod of fortefighter and fighmaster by 20% and gunmaster ATP mod by 10% (FF from 185% to 165%, FM from 168% to 148% and GM from 136% to 126%), increase Masterforce HP, mod by 10% (from 85% to 95%), change anga jabroga so it can miss, and nerf dus majarra a bit (like decreasing ATP by 5% or 10%).

A small boost to guntecher and wartecher could be nice...not about stats but in PAs, for example, WT with 40/20/40/30 and GT with 20/40/30/40. Due to their lower stats, they wouldn't become overpowered even with 2 types of photon arts at lvl 40.

This wouldn't be perfectly balanced, but in my opinion it would be a bit better than what it is now.

[fayt6]

ok we know sega basicly wont fix the classes soooooooo how bout we learn from what we dont like about the classes and focus on the good like someone wrote about accuracy problems well pop that one accuracy pill easy? if ur worried about effectiveness be a cast fm no one cares about ur class they generaly care about themselves your fine lol umm same point if u wanna be original thats you if somone else wants to not be thats them lol umm about clear time on masterforce its gona take a bit longer havent ran the numbers cuz i dont do numbers buttt just focus on you cuz there will always be someone with better stuff thats just the way life is ya know?

[TecherRamen]

30 levels of tech, 30% increase in implicit element, S rank equipment versus B rank, and a speed bonus. You do realize how much more power that adds up to, right?

second

[Cracka_J]

skill is important to psu, but race, type, stats and equip make all the difference in the world.

Difference in DPS. That's all.

Since you've made it very clear that DPS is all you care about, it's obviously an argument I won't ever be able to win with MF. I know that.

DPS however, does not make the game to me. It never has, and it never will. If that's the bottom line of why you play PSU, then yes, go level your M Cast FM and be happy. Just don't expect everyone else to conform to how *you* enjoy playing.

I like MF for what it is, and yes, I'm happy with it. If that's how the game is enjoyable for me, why should you care?

[Magus_84]

Difference in DPS. That's all.

Since you've made it very clear that DPS is all you care about, it's obviously an argument I won't ever be able to win with MF. I know that.

DPS however, does not make the game to me. It never has, and it never will. If that's the bottom line of why you play PSU, then yes, go level your M Cast FM and be happy. Just don't expect everyone else to conform to how *you* enjoy playing.

I like MF for what it is, and yes, I'm happy with it. If that's how the game is enjoyable for me, why should you care?

While I agree with what I assume is the intent of your post (play the game to enjoy it), I have two issues with it.

1. It's self-defeating, sorta. "I enjoy it this way, therefore the inherent imbalances are fine." Though considering how unlikely it is that ST will balance out the differences between techs and melee/guns, it's not so bad. Probably the best way to go about things, really. Main problem is that (despite the bitching), there are actual issues with the game balance. Not necessarily Masterforce specifically, but tech-related. And since it's both new and shiny and is all offensive techs, all the time...it bears the brunt of the bitching.

2. With regards to Masterforce...your enjoyment comes at the expense of others'. Much the same way that an "uber" FM's enjoyment comes at the expense of everyone else's. He kills enemies too fast, you kill framerates and sear retinas too fast. Hopefully the tech visual nerf will fix some of this.

[autumn]

T_T @ tech nerf

[Jose!]

While I agree with what I assume is the intent of your post (play the game to enjoy it), I have two issues with it.

1. It's self-defeating, sorta. "I enjoy it this way, therefore the inherent imbalances are fine." Though considering how unlikely it is that ST will balance out the differences between techs and melee/guns, it's not so bad. Probably the best way to go about things, really. Main problem is that (despite the bitching), there are actual issues with the game balance. Not necessarily Masterforce specifically, but tech-related. And since it's both new and shiny and is all offensive techs, all the time...it bears the brunt of the bitching.

2. With regards to Masterforce...your enjoyment comes at the expense of others'. Much the same way that an "uber" FM's enjoyment comes at the expense of everyone else's. He kills enemies too fast, you kill framerates and sear retinas too fast. Hopefully the tech visual nerf will fix some of this.


Hell. Don't blame FM's for Doing Their Job Right and the party not being able to freakin keep up. and MF Framerate? GET A DECENT PC!

[Magus_84]

Hell. Don't blame FM's for Doing Their Job Right and the party not being able to freakin keep up. and MF Framerate? GET A DECENT PC!

I can handle one 41+ Dambarta at point blank without slowdown. Any more, it gets iffy.

The "sears retinas" part of that was the more important one.

[Cracka_J]

While I agree with what I assume is the intent of your post (play the game to enjoy it), I have two issues with it.

1. It's self-defeating, sorta. "I enjoy it this way, therefore the inherent imbalances are fine." Though considering how unlikely it is that ST will balance out the differences between techs and melee/guns, it's not so bad. Probably the best way to go about things, really. Main problem is that (despite the bitching), there are actual issues with the game balance. Not necessarily Masterforce specifically, but tech-related. And since it's both new and shiny and is all offensive techs, all the time...it bears the brunt of the bitching.

2. With regards to Masterforce...your enjoyment comes at the expense of others'. Much the same way that an "uber" FM's enjoyment comes at the expense of everyone else's. He kills enemies too fast, you kill framerates and sear retinas too fast. Hopefully the tech visual nerf will fix some of this.

Most of what your saying revolves around the tech visuals though, something I've said before that while I disagree with it, I do think it should be implemented with the option for PC users to toggle them if they desire.

The issues others are bringing up, and the main issue that this thread is addressing, is that MF sucks because of it's DPS. That's what I have a problem with, and what I've been posting about. The tech nerf/adjustment issue is a totally different problem then what's being discussed here, and there's many other threads that have been made about it. So while I agree with what you're saying, I think you missed what I was debating.

[Erkthemerc]

After reading all this stuff...
I have come to see that...
every class needs to be nerfed...
We are all to strong, we get too much cash too fast, level too fast, and have PA's that level too fast. I miss the pre-AoI days where people played together nicely and helped each other out. Now the game is not so fun...
We only see the DPS that we do, no one plays to have fun any more.
This I blame on the constant ways that the game is made easier...
I hope that the game is fixed and made interesting again.

[NOC G4ME v2]

indeed masterforce is weaker...
but its ment for the masters!
=b

[NOC G4ME v2]

and if they ever decide to come out with that new expansion that ive been hearing about...
and how you die soo easily on S3 cant wait lol
^_^

[unicorn]

I like techers. They're the most dedicated players in this game, not the nub who spams Majarra and Jabroga and apparently has high % weapons. Its the player who sets time aside to lvl 30-something techs. Gunners come in close second, but I feel that guns lvl faster than techs now (they got a x3 boost while techs got a x2 one).

I can't really complain about my damage, even as a CAST. I have no problems keeping up. I can imagine how it would be for a Newman.

But overall, doesn't matter what race/combo you are, any fighter is always going to outdamage you. I have no problem with that. What bugs me is that they have the stronest offense and strongest defense. I'm sorry, but there is something wrong when you're using more Trimates as an MF than an FM. And the whole "you can heal yourself" thing is sooo irrelevant, since I can pop a trimate faster than a resta. Either fighters need lower HP, or techers need to do the most damage. And it would maaaake much more sense for techers to do more damage (Wtf, a sword swing is not supposed to be stronger than a thunderbolt). Fighters should be better boss killers though.

The only techer worth playing is AT. And thats because it has MELEE.

Whatever. ST is not gonna care about techers, so we just gotta keep on doing mediocre damage and get used to it.

[dexter_safe]

so lets say they make techers stronger then the fighters and gunners would complain about techers being too strong, it's not like the gunners and fighters care any how they'd just boot u mf ppl anyhow lol. yup the no masterforce in the party comment o.0

[garjian]

rather than increasing the power of techers attacks... why not let them stick to what theyre good at? making everyone else better, HEALING, and damaging whenever theyre not necessary... theres no need for a class that can do EVERYTHING again... just go back to acrotecher...

IMO... they should go with a simple triangular format... hunter = damage, ranger = status problems, force = support... the might sound rubbish to you but... whats wrong with it? it would work a lot better than what it is like now...
that being... everyone being exactly the same...

[Aries2384]

rather than increasing the power of techers attacks... why not let them stick to what theyre good at? making everyone else better, HEALING, and damaging whenever theyre not necessary... theres no need for a class that can do EVERYTHING again... just go back to acrotecher...

IMO... they should go with a simple triangular format... hunter = damage, ranger = status problems, force = support... the might sound rubbish to you but... whats wrong with it? it would work a lot better than what it is like now...
that being... everyone being exactly the same...

I dont need techers to do more dmg, what I WANT them to be able to do is hit multiple hit boxes. THAT would make me satisfied and put us back on the lvl with fighters. (almost)

And regards to the quoted poster above, Techers CANT do everything.. we don't need superb defense, we just want to be on a lvl with dmg in comparison to the other classes. We are NOT your support slaves. I would gladly be support if I havent seen a player get frozen and reversed them, only to have that player not use a sol atomizer on me when I GET frozen. They just run right by. It doesnt matter what class I play, I never stop being a techer. I always have star and sol atomizers on my pallet to assist my party mates. I will say it again, we are NOT your slaves. Don't treat us as such. Whats your name so I can hold back supports from you whenever I play with you? You can use trimates and agtarides for yourself, sir.
If you don't want to play with Fortetechers or Masterforces, look for a Acrotecher.
We have a Support techer (Acrotecher), a Hybrid support/offense techer (Fortetecher) and a offensive techer (Masterforce). This is the way of it, the techers that are interested in supporting you morons will play forte or acro techer. The techers who don't want to be subject to your random bitching about how "Expensive trimates etc etc" are.. will play masterforce. A good masterforce will still be able to throw out the occaisonal resta or reverser if THEY FEEL LIKE IT.
I say one last time: Techers, are NOT here for your use.

[Matic]

rather than increasing the power of techers attacks... why not let them stick to what theyre good at? making everyone else better, HEALING...

Yeah, because Masterforce is awesome at this.

[Darius_Drake]

Weird. Trying to nerf the other classes. What is the point? If you want big numbers choose the other classes. I do however believe that techers should be able to hit multiple hit boxes with certain spells. That only makes sense. The fact that fighters have a stronger offense and defense makes sense. They are a damage based class which explains the offense and since they strike at point blank range they will take hits to deliver them which explains the need for a stronger defense. Fortefighters when played right are the tanks of the party. A techer shouldn't be fighting creatures from point blank range and that is why their defense is not as strong. At the same time I do believe that a techer should get a little more break hp wise. Swithing to MF wasn't bad in my opinion. It is not supposed to be an uber class. Each master class has its downfall except maybe GM. I just wish certain spells could hit multiple hit boxes (these spells would include linear spells if it was lined up right), and be more forgiving with the hp. FM actually are different and I am still trying to figure out the major purpose of the class. It has speed, but it loses power, health and defense, the very things a fortefighter is known for. GM on the other hand is a flat out upgrade from FG as long as you were not a grenade launcher lover.

[Aries2384]

i mean 2 bad that your not A master...your karate is garbage
wax on wax off motherfuckers jp =P just be open to change if you dont like it...

Was there any sort of rationality or meaning there?

On topic: I don't think the other Master classes need to be adjusted really. I would like to see MF's be able to hit multiple boxes like they could in PSO. (De Rol Le Ra-foie rape anyone?) And I think people would be pretty happy with that. I would really like to see the Visual tech nerf sooner so this anti- MF community stupidity can stop. (Or maybe it will continue because people don't want to see a techer work, but they want their lvl 5 buffs and resta/reverser.)

[Sexy_Raine]

While I agree with what I assume is the intent of your post (play the game to enjoy it), I have two issues with it.

1. It's self-defeating, sorta. "I enjoy it this way, therefore the inherent imbalances are fine." Though considering how unlikely it is that ST will balance out the differences between techs and melee/guns, it's not so bad. Probably the best way to go about things, really. Main problem is that (despite the bitching), there are actual issues with the game balance. Not necessarily Masterforce specifically, but tech-related. And since it's both new and shiny and is all offensive techs, all the time...it bears the brunt of the bitching.

2. With regards to Masterforce...your enjoyment comes at the expense of others'. Much the same way that an "uber" FM's enjoyment comes at the expense of everyone else's. He kills enemies too fast, you kill framerates and sear retinas too fast. Hopefully the tech visual nerf will fix some of this.

I enjoy being a techer in general, but I don't enjoy my damn effort into this type being undone by scrubby fighters. I miss the pre-AOTI FT days when it was actually worth something. Robbing our support was stupid, how are we support to match the other master types without it? My hatred for being low-tier outweighs my enjoyment of being a force.

I want something rewarding for my damn thousands of hours, so Gunmaster will be main new thing to focus on after I retire MF. GM is the only thing saving me from quitting.

[unicorn]

The only reason why I'm playing MF is to show off some 41+ techs. Thats it. Once the visual nerf comes, wtf would I be playing MF for? Damage? Stability? Errr. I'll probably go back to FT or AT by then, they live better and are just easier (not that MF is hard, but I don't care much for the extra damage if I'm not rewarded much).

Ideally this would be my favorite type, because I like the Oohh-Aaah factor, but that won't last long. :(

OH btw, does 41+ support techs get a visual nerf?

[HiroChicken]

I would gladly be support if I haven't seen a player get frozen and reversed them, only to have that player not use a sol atomizer on me when I GET frozen. They just run right by.

I hate when this happens. It also seems to happen on White Beast a lot, which is a mission with a high rate of Freeze and Sleep! I just don't understand why you wouldn't take Sol Atomizers if not Star Atomizers on that mission. I ran it a few times yesterday for easy experience to get my AT from 99 to 100, and unfortunately I'd get caught in some cross-fire of Grants. Then the other 5 players all proceeded to clear the room while I slept to the side. -_-

[darkante]

The only reason why I'm playing MF is to show off some 41+ techs. Thats it. Once the visual nerf comes, wtf would I be playing MF for? Damage? Stability? Errr. I'll probably go back to FT or AT by then, they live better and are just easier (not that MF is hard, but I don't care much for the extra damage if I'm not rewarded much).

Ideally this would be my favorite type, because I like the Oohh-Aaah factor, but that won't last long. :(

OH btw, does 41+ support techs get a visual nerf?

Visual nerf only applies to the other party members view of your techniques.
From your view, it still looks like a lv 41+ technique.<<

Feel better now?

[unicorn]

Visual nerf only applies to the other party members view of your techniques.
From your view, it still looks like a lv 41+ technique.<<

Feel better now?

Thats what bugs me. All MFs have are framerate slowing flashes, other than that they are nothing. I don't play MF for loldamage, I play it to throw sparkles and flares. I see no usefulness in it otherwise. So for the time being, I'll enjoy lagging people and showing off 41+ PAs. Afterwards however....eh..... I'm not certain I'd stay MF, since AT is muuuch better. Maybe I'll like MF enough to stay it, but idk.