About RARES/ drops

[one2]

Have u ever wondered about the rares how SEGA detirmines when they drop?
Well correct me if i am wrong but when i hunt i end up with alot of 1 item.
So if u look at spawns and all that other junk. That u dont want/need.
There is a way out there because a pc dose not know random just a confirmed order or rate.
That brings me back to y run all the crap missions when what u want will only drop on 1 run.
So over the last 4000 hours of PSU playing and a bunch of notes taken from almost all runs.
exluding timed runs not paying attention. I have come to conclusion if u are looking for a certain type of wpn it is predetirmend by the mission. armor, guns, swords, spears, sabers and so on.
Furthermore this relates to the map. and stay a constint throughout the game. so if u a really looking for the one wpn , u can take maps away and use the process of elimination to get what u want. only running the mission a few times. So there is really no resone i posted but to say random can't exist. but hey what do i know.

[BIGGIEstyle]

umm....s o what you're saying is.... certain rares only drop in certain locations?

We knew that.

[one2]

no that certian maps spawns set the desingnated rare to drop at boss or this also works withe area drops. not just catilium and other stupid stuff

[JAFO22000]

Don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeling.

[BIGGIEstyle]

Hmm... yeah... I'm gonna have to.... disagree there. As someone who's done hundreds of runs in the same maps over and over again, I can tell you that there are no specific maps that will drop the same rare over and over again consistently.

[one2]

lol people are not verry exepting but just to let u know i have proven this fact with a few dif wpns and armors such as armas line and gaozoran rod boards and agito repcas and the list keeps going so dont belive and keep running the same stage hundreds of times
i just laugh at you.

[DesuJet]

Hey one2, trying hunting a Milla and see which map spawn makes it drop. ROFL

[Smidge204]

lol people are not verry exepting but just to let u know i have proven this fact with a few dif wpns and armors such as armas line and gaozoran rod boards and agito repcas and the list keeps going so dont belive and keep running the same stage hundreds of times
i just laugh at you.


In order for that to be true, you would have to be in possession of multiples of all these items. Otherwise, your data collection consists only of a single point: Not statistically relevant in any sense of the word.

Therefore, pics or it didn't happen.
=Smidge=

[RegulusHikari]

Hey one2, trying hunting a Milla and see which map spawn makes it drop. ROFL

I second this notion.

[one2]

um yea but i quit after getting 3 of each. but yes i know this and yes i can tell u what map will dropp what. the item drops do change verry because a map is dessignated b4 u run it so a sword map will drop dif swords. so if there are multiples of wpns it will change. like if a map contains 2 dif s rank swords only 1 will drop per run. u will have to find the same map to drop the other. and also when it comes to armor a resist is considered a armor.

[Tyreek]

Why did you make 2 threads?

[Tyreek]

And you're gonna have provide a lot more than just word of mouth in order to make this... Fact. Can you at least provide a better source to support this? Examples maybe?

[Chuck_Norris]

I "lol" at you, sir.

[Smidge204]

um yea but i quit after getting 3 of each. but yes i know this and yes i can tell u what map will dropp what.


Fair enough. I expect to see screenshots of your inventory/storage showing 3 each Aramas Line, [B] Gaozoran Rod and Agito Repca. I also expect a description of the map sets where these rare items are apparently non-rare. There is no reason you can't provide these screenshots within the next day or two, since you already have the items.

Be warned, though, I've shoop'd quite a few whoops in my time.
=Smidge=

[one2]

i can show u some of these items but some have been sold such as the repca boards. 1 armas line 1 gao rod those are just the ones i mentioned. they are best sellers.

[Smidge204]

How convenient.

=Smidge=

[one2]

yea i figured as much of a responce. and if i told u how i would be poor

[kyle21]

Ok so give us an example of a map that will drop Gao Rod and let us test this theory, that should prove your point.

[one2]

b-3 or c-3 warning is the tesebra drops on this run to and the gao rod will drop in the first block, and bdecause the gao rod is an area the other area boards might dropp such as repca or the viper...this is the hive #3 run s2

[Tyreek]

You've been places I see.

[Smidge204]

Hey with all the money you're making selling Aramas Line and Gao Rod you could corner the market on Grinder S+10's and make a FORTUNE.

Worked for this one guy I know...
=Smidge=

[one2]

like only 30 s+10 grrinders in stock and i dont need $ i earned pretty much everythimg i wanted in the game

so for some reasone i cant post the screen shots but i only gave you a few hints and if u find me online i might explain more

[Majarra]

God damn. Dude your pulling stuff out of your ass. Its all random and luck. no special map or spawn. its all lies./thread

[Tyreek]

*Shakes head*

[Chuck_Norris]

Again, I "lol" at you, sir.

[mvffin]

also, gao rod is not an area drop.

[Arada]

I like to know how things work and I made an in-depth study of drop mechanisms and how luck affected drops.

I have used personnal tools to be able to create offline game states to determine when drops are determined.

Offline works like online on that matter and I used game states at various times right before I killed an enemy. The results are quite clear: the drops were different.

Drops aren't determined by a map but by a random number generated upon the enemy's death and which is then matched to a drop table, specific to the enemy. The match gives what item drops and that's it. That's also how most online games do with loot/drops/whatever you want to call it.

[DesuJet]

Hey Onetwo, I look at Sakura Blast for the Milla...rollseyes...

This dude PM'd me where I've been looking for the Milla. I've killed 164 Jigo's so divide that number by 4 and that's how many runs I've actually completed, not counting the hundreds of others I had to abort because of the wrong spawns.

[kejen]

Exactly, as arada said. Do you know how much work would be involved to link all the items to various maps? Not to mention how bad it would bloat the code? There are just tables that consist of all the items possible. Like 1 table would be called metal9. It would consist of stuff like catilium, and other metals. And another photon table with various photons. So when a box is broken or enemy killed an internal dice roll is made. Lets say 1d100. if # > 80 nothing drops, if > 50 it goes to photon table, if > 20 goes to metal9 table. Now in the metal table another roll is made 1d100, if # > 90 catilium pops, else something else drops.

Now, this is not exactly how it works, just a general idea. I know PSU has vary crazy drop rates, like 1 in 40000 on some things. But that is probably based off it going through several tables. But could be 1d40000, if # = 1 drop repca board else 1d100, etc.

And luck could just add a few numbers to your roll. Something like n == 1d100 + luck.

[Arada]

Actually, it works the way you're describing it:

General table with for instance (just a random exemple, there's no actual data here):
1 -> 50: no drop (direct result)
50->60: mesetas (direct result)
60->70: photon drop (go to: photon drop chart)
70->80: -line drop (go to: -line drop chart)
80-85: area drop (go to: area drop chart)
86->95: special drop (go to: special drop chart of the enemy)
96->99: specific enemy drop (boards and such; go to: specific drop chart)

And an exemple of area drop chart (no actual data, just to show how it works):
1 -> 50: no drop (yes, secondary charts have a "no drop" zone)
51->75: Copernia
76->80: Goldania
81->84; Morbinia
85->86: Lithnia
87->95: Grinder base A
96->99: Grinder base S

So that would make chances to drop a goldania, for instance (taking number from this exemple): 0.05 x 0,04 = 0.002 = 0.2%

That's how they made low drop rates.

[NOC G4ME v2]

what about the certain time and what time you complete the mission in.
anything is possible >_<

[Arada]

Actually, random numbers (to match the charts) are generated with a reference. This reference has to be ever changing to create randomness. So a good reference would be time and that's actually the one most commonly used in the world of software development so there are very good chances Sega used it too.

[kejen]

Yeah, it's really funny to hear some of these things. The other day I was in a B shaft group. Someone kept yelling at people for using photon arts. They claimed you get better drops if you don't use them.

First of all, nothing will drop on a B run. Second, that is pretty silly to think that.

Anyways, if the OP got 3 items from the same 3 maps, it was just coincidence.

[kejen]

I agree on the time, definitely could play a part. I doubt the hour, but seconds or minutes.

My friend actually mentioned something about time and synthing. He put 2 weapons in and took them out at the exact same time. Both were 38%. Major coincednce, or not?

[MooCowPirate]

I agree on the time, definitely could play a part. I doubt the hour, but seconds or minutes.

My friend actually mentioned something about time and synthing. He put 2 weapons in and took them out at the exact same time. Both were 38%. Major coincednce, or not?

I don't know man. I'd have to lean on personal luck to be honest. I've ran Sleeping Warriors, and Unsafe Pasage S2 too many times to count, and haven't seen one damn Psycho Wand, Agito Repca, Gaozoran Rod, or Crea Doubles board drop. Luck needs to start swinging my way.

[Smidge204]

I suppose it's possible that it's not truly random, in the cryptographic sense. People debate all night about whether a deterministic machine (digital computer) could ever really produce random numbers. That's why it's called pseuorandom.

If they use the server's clock as a random seed, then there is a chance that certain times are more 'lucky' than others. There are some innovative solutions (http://www.lavarnd.org/what/process.html) to that problem, though.
=Smidge=

[Arada]

Developers can use more than one factor to create random numbers.

I've been thinking hard about what ever-changing numbers they could use and I think it could be things like total damage dealt by the team either during the mission or during the whole time it hasn't changed.

And they also could use your Photon Fortune to factor the Random Number Generator's results.

[Cracka_J]

Arada, I'm not flaming you, I just want your input since you're going about this in a much more logical sense, and making an actual TOPIC out of the TOPIC. So I applaud you for that because this thread was in the gutter.

That being said, I've done somewhere in the range of 5000+ sw s2 runs. I've netted 16 pwand boards in my ventures (averages around 312 runs per board if you divide the straight numbers). With each of the drops, they have all been from different locations, different spawns on the map, with different times on the clock for each drop (albiet I have no actual "seconds" info). After what I've seen, I have a very hard time calling they system anything but random.

Now I get what your saying about the drops being binded to certain factors like time, which makes sense. And I know how most "random" number generators can actually follow some patterns when they are broken down. But these drop theories, in my experience, hold as much validity as the people who have claimed to have those "casino gimmicks". There may very well be some underlying time based way to tell what is going to drop, and when, but it seems like it would require to do much more thinking and math work then just breaking down certain spawns/maps as the OP said.

With the OP's theory, I could just as easily pin the drops I'm finding on the clothes set I was wearing at the times, and say the particular clothes set increases the rate at I find the items. Who could disprove me? I'm just saying sometimes when people get "lucky" events, they pin it on superstitious things that have absolutely nothing to do with what made the "lucky" event happen. We all knows this happens ALOT irl also *cough* bingo halls *cough*.

Besides, I'd much rather just play the game and enjoy it, rather then spending countless hours documenting how random drop generation works (one that I can't even see the code for), and actually figuring out a way to accurately apply it in-game. It just DOESN'T seem worth the effort when I can just spam and find whatever I'm looking for in the same (or less) amount of time.

[Arada]

Yeah, I know how you feel. I play the game to have fun but, you know, sometimes people like One2, claiming whatever bullshit they can make me want to have actual clear answers and to be able to prove them wrong.

Just a little note, I never said drops were based on time, I just said that, as Smidge204, pointed, randomness never truly exists in computers. Everything comes from somewhere and generating numbers (in sequence or randomly) is no exception.

What I'm saying is that time is an ever-chaning value (base value in modern computers is nanoseconds) and that the random numbers come out of this value but not in a sequencial way.

I'll give you an exemple, say that time X at the moment the random number is generated is: 0901151234432112342415

-> Yes that's a time value for a computer.

And you want a random number between 0 and 99.

The random rule could be just about anything. It can simply do "X²" and take the last 2 digit or "X multiplied by total damage made by the team" and take the last 2 digits.
Since factors for the operation are changing all the time, the results vary all the time and so the number generated is "random" as in "not predictable because I can't count faster than the computer".

So time and date of the drops don't matter at all, actually. And I hope I truly didn't imply that earlier ^^

Anyways, I'm not spending too much time figuring how the game works because it's closer to "good sense" and "stuff you learn when you're in a computer engineer school" than deep knowledge of the game where I hacked it all the way to watch what's happening.

Don't worry, I'm enjoying the game ^^

[Cracka_J]

Nah, I get you. Thanks for the bit more in-depth explanation also, it does seem like we're on the same page about the topic lol.

I think the "not predictable because I can't count faster than the computer" is pretty dead on. Also, "not predictable/reproducible because I can't see what the computer is generating" seems to apply also.

[Arada]

Indeed. Since we don't know the factors, we can't even start knowing what truly matters.

But I guess no one really wants to know what they're using anyway.

[one2]

Actually, it works the way you're describing it:

General table with for instance (just a random exemple, there's no actual data here):
1 -> 50: no drop (direct result)
50->60: mesetas (direct result)
60->70: photon drop (go to: photon drop chart)
70->80: -line drop (go to: -line drop chart)
80-85: area drop (go to: area drop chart)
86->95: special drop (go to: special drop chart of the enemy)
96->99: specific enemy drop (boards and such; go to: specific drop chart)

And an exemple of area drop chart (no actual data, just to show how it works):
1 -> 50: no drop (yes, secondary charts have a "no drop" zone)
51->75: Copernia
76->80: Goldania
81->84; Morbinia
85->86: Lithnia
87->95: Grinder base A
96->99: Grinder base S

So that would make chances to drop a goldania, for instance (taking number from this exemple): 0.05 x 0,04 = 0.002 = 0.2%

That's how they made low drop rates.

well last night i went to look for har/ quick, 8 runs found 2 both on the same map at kego clearingthere is away to set the drops. hint going to room resets the varibales and then u reform party and u can skip the maps to set this up but you must run 2 time. and this just sets up rare on boss box no clue what one they change. but every run i did had a rare in boss box. furthermore if u are looking for armor the rare will be accompnied with a room item.

[one2]

Indeed. Since we don't know the factors, we can't even start knowing what truly matters.

But I guess no one really wants to know what they're using anyway.

that is why i bring this up i have evaluated the factors and have set a constant for every map in the game. that stays the same. wether it is white beast, hive, motherbrain, or wher ever it is just based on the fact that the game has to follow rules.

[one2]

what about the certain time and what time you complete the mission in.
anything is possible >_<

the mission time only reflects the rate that you get is, pf, foi, also the max credit you can get is 30 min, with full party. and unlike most ppl think it is just based on the time, it dose have to be continuos runs, if u go to your room it will reset the time. pm machine dose count. for time.
so when looking for rare missions dont go to room tell you have completed all maps pluss 2 meaning u must complete the mission

[one2]

Yeah, it's really funny to hear some of these things. The other day I was in a B shaft group. Someone kept yelling at people for using photon arts. They claimed you get better drops if you don't use them.

First of all, nothing will drop on a B run. Second, that is pretty silly to think that.

Anyways, if the OP got 3 items from the same 3 maps, it was just coincidence.

yea i have tested that theroy to it = fail. Just kill the freakin things

[one2]

I agree on the time, definitely could play a part. I doubt the hour, but seconds or minutes.

My friend actually mentioned something about time and synthing. He put 2 weapons in and took them out at the exact same time. Both were 38%. Major coincednce, or not?

to have the best rate without faillure try makeing only one s rank wpn at a time this forces the game to % to be boosted failure rate is near nothing.

[one2]

also, gao rod is not an area drop.

wow to say that the [b] gaozoran rod is not an area is off the hook. it drops in three areas from the gaozoran lvl 100+

[Cracka_J]

wow, 6 posts in a row is pretty epic...

The point me and arada were making is that unless you have literally ripped the game code open, the variables for what you are stating are NOT DETERMINABLE.

Since you seem to have found them, post ST's game code. That's a simple enough solution, right?

Also QFT



P.S.
Area drop means that it drops from ANY CREATURE in the area. Gaozoran Rod ONLY drops from Gaozoran. If it was an area drop, it would drop from every creature in the run.

Seems like some confusion between area vs enemy drop from someone who can see the matrix.

[joefro]

(Wall of Text)
You know that you can quote multiple people on one post, right?

On topic:
I don't think Sonic Team would have taken that much time to make a drop rate system work like what you are saying it does. I also think that many people would have posted this about two years ago.

P.S.
Area drop means that it drops from ANY CREATURE in the area. Gaozoran Rod ONLY drops from Gaozoran. If it was an area drop, it would drop from every creature in the run.

[Smidge204]

Too much fail for one post, I guess.

In reverse order:

1) Gao Rod Boards are not "area drops" - they are enemy-specific drops. Just because a particular enemy only appears in a particular area does not make it an area drop. You are an idiot.

2) Failure rate of weapon synthing is completely independent of other weapons that are being made at the time. In statistics this is called an "independent event." For all the anecdotal evidence you can provide to back up your point, I only need one to prove it wrong: I synthed 5 Ryusaikanoh a few days ago, each 91% chance to succeed (including 10% boost), all started within a minute of eachother. 4 succeeded and 1 failed. For the record, I also had one Ryusaikanoc (81%) int he same group which came out fine, too.

3) Regarding rare missions: It has been commented elsewhere that time is no longer a factor (though the 5 minute minimum might still apply). Also, it is impossible to go to your room without abandoning the mission, which makes your statement about doing so "resetting the time" so vacuous it might implode upon itself. Same goes with the comment about the PM counting "for time" (What does the number of party members have to do with mission time?)

4) Please share the "factors" you have "evaluated" so they can be independently verified. That is the scientifically responsible thing to do.

5) Since you found two Har / Quick units last night, you can obviously show us a pic of them? Unless you sold them already, of course.
=Smidge=

[one2]

regaurding the synth. it may not matter. and yes i concider the gao rod area just because the enemy drops it is an area based monster. . and second it is not my fault u are to nieve or blind to know that a computer has to follow rules.... OR IT WONT RUN. and u can ask sovalou about the quicks he was there for one of them and he has been testing it... belive what u want.... but dont critisize the oppinon... all i am doing is getting more info so i can post the actuall findings to make it easyer on everyone

[Arada]

Ok so, first, the things I posted are the usual ways to make things drop on a variable way. That's how it is and Sega surely didn't invent anything.

Yes a computer has to follow rules but it isn't the way you describe it and I'm sure of that.

I didn't say I was 100% right. But I'm sure you're 100% wrong.

For your information, there are enemies appearing in different areas (missions) of the game, like Grinna Bete S, found both on Moatoob and on Parum but they have the same drops whatever the place they're spawning. That makes a drop an "enemy specific" drop while an "area drop" is one that drops from any monster in a given mission. Making them real different from one another.

Also, the best counter exemple of your "map" theory is, as previously stated, the ellusive handgun Milla.
It drops only from Jigo Boomas (of level 150+) found both in Hills of Spore S2 and Sakura Blast S2. They're the rare enemies of those missions and there are only 3 map variations out of 12 (for each mission) that make them spawn. Every player hunting the handgun has probably seen the Jigo Boomas on all 3 variations they spawn on (at Sakura Blast) and many of them have yet to see Milla drop (including me).

This exemple completely defeats your "map variation defines the drops" theory because out of all variations, sometimes it drops, most of the time it doesn't.

Ah, and I have 4 words for you: Check your spelling, please.

[KuroShinnen]

I just have to ask, what do you mean a computer doesn't know random...?

Are you saying that it is impossible to to create a random number generator in a game, that has probably thousands already?

Look at grinding a weapon, there is a percent grind at which you can succeed or fail. I will admit, that that the fail rate does seem a little crazy, but it' isn't like the weapon has a pre-determined number of grinds till it reaches a pre-determined max of say 6.

What I'm saying is, of course a computer can make a random number generator, why couldn't it?

[one2]

Ok so, first, the things I posted are the usual ways to make things drop on a variable way. That's how it is and Sega surely didn't invent anything.

Yes a computer has to follow rules but it isn't the way you describe it and I'm sure of that.

I didn't say I was 100% right. But I'm sure you're 100% wrong.

For your information, there are enemies appearing in different areas (missions) of the game, like Grinna Bete S, found both on Moatoob and on Parum but they have the same drops whatever the place they're spawning. That makes a drop an "enemy specific" drop while an "area drop" is one that drops from any monster in a given mission. Making them real different from one another.

Also, the best counter exemple of your "map" theory is, as previously stated, the ellusive handgun Milla.
It drops only from Jigo Boomas (of level 150+) found both in Hills of Spore S2 and Sakura Blast S2. They're the rare enemies of those missions and there are only 3 map variations out of 12 (for each mission) that make them spawn. Every player hunting the handgun has probably seen the Jigo Boomas on all 3 variations they spawn on (at Sakura Blast) and many of them have yet to see Milla drop (including me).

This exemple completely defeats your "map variation defines the drops" theory because out of all variations, sometimes it drops, most of the time it doesn't.

Ah, and I have 4 words for you: Check your spelling, please.
regaurding the milla, if u know the map that it is suposed to drop from then it should be easyto get. and only 1 of the 3 maps will drop it. and it is going to be the 2nd time u see the map. because the set of maps change out of the three u will only be able to find 1 or 2 of the maps when u come from your room. and i dont care about spelling. if u would like some help finding this wpn i would be willing to help u out with it. seems to me that you get the on run u was looking for and it dose not drop it is because u r on the wrong map. you say there is 12 dif maps for this run when really there is 24 and you are looking for 1 of 24 maps. you can only stack the map. to get the right spawns if u look at the maps on the web the reasone i say 24 is because there is 2 dif maps for each map spawn slightly diff. but the same u must go deaper then the first spawn of each run. so check the maps before u call me 100% wrong and u will see

[one2]

I just have to ask, what do you mean a computer doesn't know random...?

Are you saying that it is impossible to to create a random number generator in a game, that has probably thousands already?

Look at grinding a weapon, there is a percent grind at which you can succeed or fail. I will admit, that that the fail rate does seem a little crazy, but it' isn't like the weapon has a pre-determined number of grinds till it reaches a pre-determined max of say 6.

What I'm saying is, of course a computer can make a random number generator, why couldn't it?
think of it like rain or hail snow complete random from sky. but it will hit the same spot if you wait long enough this is much quicker then a pc such as the dice and cards in the game. but when it completes a cycle it will restart. like a cd player on random without repeat on after it finshes the songs it is over reguardless the order the cards and dice have been set on repeat that is y u can get the same card 2 times in a row

[Arada]

Ah ! Whatever !

If you're so sure about your method, prove me wrong. Videos, use modern means, whatever you want to do.

Flood the market with rares, I'd like to see that, please. If you're sure about your method, I'd be willing to see your shop full of Gaozoran Rods boards. Even 5 would make me start believing whatever you're trying to say.

Otherwise, from the point of view of someone paid to dissect computer programs, you're wrong.

[DAMASCUS]

I guess I'll throw my dice in to the circle:

I'm casual for the most part so these are just observations:
- Certain 'random' elements do seem to 'stick' for a period of time. Whether its the roulette wheel or map variations. Its curious how you can get the same map several times in a row and then at some point a switch flips and you start seeing another variation.

- Its almost plausible that there are hidden section IDs but there are too many factors involved to say for sure. Its probably similar but rotates during certain times of day.

[one2]

Ah ! Whatever !

If you're so sure about your method, prove me wrong. Videos, use modern means, whatever you want to do.

Flood the market with rares, I'd like to see that, please. If you're sure about your method, I'd be willing to see your shop full of Gaozoran Rods boards. Even 5 would make me start believing whatever you're trying to say.

Otherwise, from the point of view of someone paid to dissect computer programs, you're wrong.

mabey i should be the one being paid to disect not u. and i to bussy to flood the market because more suply = less cash because demand is lower of cource the cash dose go to me and i do put them out for sale but they sale quick besides it is funner to find your own

[Smidge204]

What I'm saying is, of course a computer can make a random number generator, why couldn't it?

Explanation in the spoiler box, as it's off-topic-ish.

[SPOILER-BOX]Here's the question though: How can a deterministic machine, such as a digital computer, create something truly random? How can you get true random results from a series of distinct, deterministic steps? That's why the term "pseudorandom" is used - it appears random, but in fact it's not.

This is easily seen using any programming language's Rnd() function or equivalent. Typically you are given an opportunity to seed the number generator. Giving the same seed will produce the same sequence of numbers. Therefore, the numbers you get are not random, but are calculated and repeatable.

"Randomness" is usually achieved by using some arbitrary, "unguessable" seed value, commonly a value from the system clock. This is why some people think the chance of rare drops or synth success are linked to time of day.

Some people have attempted to offset this limitation by using a truly random source of seed data, such as radioactive decay or floating voltages on improperly connected electronic components. I linked to one example where someone used a webcam CCD chip inside a lightproof box as a source of entropy, and that site contains lot of other useful information on the subject.[/SPOILER-BOX]


Back to one2...

I dare say I know a fair bit more about computers than you do. While computers must "follow the rules" you have no evidence why they should follow your rules. Instead they will follow the rules the game's programmers have set which, from casual observation, seem to be quite different from the rules you propose.

You have yet to provide actual, concrete examples of your findings such that someone else can repeat your results. Until you do, you are simply a lying attention whore. And an idiot.

=Smidge=
P.S. Spelling properly would go a long way towards helping your case, since it would make you look less like a tantrum-throwing 12 year old. Please consider it a bit more. Something approaching English grammar would help, too, but that might be asking too much.

[KuroShinnen]

You don't honestly think ST would go through the trouble of making a pattern drop rate, where a certain map type would be the only type or so to drop a rare item that is an area drop, such as psycho wand boards... You tell me how that would logically save space as apposed to have a static drop rate such as a random number between 0-1020, for binary purposed, and if the number is between say 1015 and 1020 the mob drops a PW board, and if it's say 950-1014 the mob drops a grinder base S.

And as for the post on random, ok, so maybe a computer cannot calculate a true random number, but they are random enough to not follow a pattern such as only dropping on certain spawns in this case. Say you were to use a computer generated dice. That's pretty random if you ask me. Hit the roll a 1000 times, and if one number comes out more than 100 times more or less than another, than I might consider saying a computer cannot generate "random" numbers.

[one2]

You don't honestly think ST would go through the trouble of making a pattern drop rate, where a certain map type would be the only type or so to drop a rare item that is an area drop, such as psycho wand boards... You tell me how that would logically save space as apposed to have a static drop rate such as a random number between 0-1020, for binary purposed, and if the number is between say 1015 and 1020 the mob drops a PW board, and if it's say 950-1014 the mob drops a grinder base S.

And as for the post on random, ok, so maybe a computer cannot calculate a true random number, but they are random enough to not follow a pattern such as only dropping on certain spawns in this case. Say you were to use a computer generated dice. That's pretty random if you ask me. Hit the roll a 1000 times, and if one number comes out more than 100 times more or less than another, than I might consider saying a computer cannot generate "random" numbers.
then u better test it with the random number generator on the psu game would be my sujestion all i am saying is that u can basicaly reset the maps to elimnate haveing to run it 1000 times easy to find if u know were to look and it reduce the number of runs. and just to help u out when u go to your room what dose the message say. that is the reset button lol SEGA hase to do this because there drops is not on repeat

[Cracka_J]

Just give up already people. He's spitting brick wall logic, which can beat any argument.

"You can't disprove me, therefore I am right by default."

You cannot argue that. /thread

[KuroShinnen]

Ok, ok, I am willing to help, by testing your results... As to why I am, I do not know. If you can tell me what map types and blocks either a PW[B] or Repca[B] drops on SW and TD, I will test the data by running only those map types and seeing if I find any more than normal, which is maybe 1 every 2 weeks.

[BIGGIEstyle]

You want a surefire way to prove your method of testing?

Post a pic of your character with TWO Millas in your inventory by Monday and I guarantee everyone will believe you.

Or think you just borrowed them for the pic.

And to Cracka, there is one thing that beats brick wall logic! Just think back to your kindergarten days of childhood games and the answer will come to you...

WALLPAPER!

[sephiroth115]

I know this isn't quite on the same topic, but I have noticed that synthing grinders are affected by timing slightly

[one2]

You want a surefire way to prove your method of testing?

Post a pic of your character with TWO Millas in your inventory by Monday and I guarantee everyone will believe you.

Or think you just borrowed them for the pic.

And to Cracka, there is one thing that beats brick wall logic! Just think back to your kindergarten days of childhood games and the answer will come to you...

WALLPAPER!
now we getting some were this could be fun
considering all i know about milla is what is on this post and u guys think it hard to get
because i have no use for the wpns or board.

[DesuJet]

Wow, you all are fucking paranoid. There is no spawn pattern for rares. This goes with other ridiculous theories on finding rares like:

-You have to turn your goggles on at teh boss boxes and you'll see the rares in the boxes!
-You have to kill the De Ragan's tail for the bio-material!
-Let the raft in Dark God or Awoken Serpent stop before opening the boss boxes for the best rares!

Like I said, I've killed 168 Jigo Boomas and haven't seen the fucking Milla drop.

[one2]

lol
is that what u think just another gimmic

[sovalou]

eh considering I've ran with this kid many of times i can say this, his theory may not be 100% but its pretty close i would have to say 85% ish only becuase, There is some instances where there is an extra varaible thrown in causing the logic to be undetermined. So after hunting multiple armas lines and har/quicks its pretty believe able xD

[Syanaide]

So after hunting multiple armas lines and har/quicks its pretty believe able xD

Oh boy, Har/Quick is such a rare drop.

[DesuJet]

eh considering I've ran with this kid many of times i can say this, his theory may not be 100% but its pretty close i would have to say 85% ish only becuase, There is some instances where there is an extra varaible thrown in causing the logic to be undetermined. So after hunting multiple armas lines and har/quicks its pretty believe able xD

Okay, so how do I get my Milla instead of getting every Jigo spawn that I can?

[fayt6]

eh considering I've ran with this kid many of times i can say this, his theory may not be 100% but its pretty close i would have to say 85% ish only becuase, There is some instances where there is an extra varaible thrown in causing the logic to be undetermined. So after hunting multiple armas lines and har/quicks its pretty believe able xD

then wtf sov let me hunt with ya an get some rarz =P

[MooCowPirate]

then wtf sov let me hunt with ya lol

Exactly. Either let us run with you, give us this awesome method of deduction, or stop toying with our emotions. Damnit.

[fay]

this topic was inspired of the other one. this has a load of reading but please do read it and leave your comment.
and please dont leave any hate comments. im just trying to work out if this is possible like other trying to work the game out.

most of you will look at this and call bullshit but please understand. what i have wrote here has been happening all the time and i ask that some of you test this for yourself. i will try to explain what each part is that i mean.

i have ran sleeping warriors probably literally of thousands of times trying to get a psycho wand. still havent got it.
however i got some usefull information.
some of the maps i ran were exactly the same. i mean same enemy spawns and same item spawns from boxes. everything was identical. cowincedence(no idea how to spell that-_-) or something else?


this is how i think it goes

A1
---A1a
---A1b
---A1c
---A1X
A2
---A2a
---A2b
---A2c
---A1X
A3
---A3a
---A3b
---A3c
---A3X
AX
---AXa
---AXb
---AXc
---AXX
B1
---B1a
---B1b
---B1c
---B1X
B2
---B2a
---B2b
---B2c
---B1X
B3
---B3a
---B3b
---B3c
---B3X
BX
---BXa
---BXb
---BXc
---BXX
C1
---C1a
---C1b
---C1c
---C1X
C2
---C2a
---C2b
---C2c
---C1X
C3
---C3a
---C3b
---C3c
---C3X
CX
---CXa
---CXb
---CXc
---CXX

we have our basics eg A1,2,3,X
the X is our rare enemy spawn map.

lets take our first section. the A's. we have A1,2,3 and Xif we want rare enemys we need the X variation of this map. straightforward yea. then we have the sub sections of these maps. for an example im going to use desert goliath S2.

the A1 first. we know this starts with the gate to the left and the first spawn of enemys are 4x trientos. these enemys will also be the same but so will the boxes in say A1-A1a. in A1-A1b the enemys are all the same but the boxes change
each one of these sub sections would hold the certain drop. trientos drops drumline. lets say we wants this so it could be programmed to drop only in selected missions ie A1b, A3c and C1a

in the case of the rare levels we can do say AX Axa,b and c could all be the inverter circuit drop but the AXx could be the shi-kikami

for bosses
everyone wanted the rattlesnake board. this could be set to drop on levels such as A2b, B1a and CXx only. which would explane the low numbers being found.

i actually believe there is an even further sub section like A1aa but i wont go into that

[Billy Mitchell]

Cowincedence, indeed!

[KuroShinnen]

This is pretty well what the other topic is about, and unless this theory is proven, it is nothing more than a coincidence.

I will admit though, I have found a few Psycho Wand Boards, and one was on the first block with the long hallway of enemies, and the others were on the third block with the boxes hiding the Badiras on the right.

This is just what I have found, but there is not nearly enough evidence in my post, or any other to actually support the map-item theory.

[JAFO22000]

It seems that it would be much harder to code a game to have items drop this way than the way that conventional wisdom seems to state (after each enemy is killed, RNG determines drop from a list.

Perhaps a clever gaming company would come up with a drop list like yours, but this is Sega we are talking about.

[fay]

It seems that it would be much harder to code a game to have items drop this way than the way that conventional wisdom seems to state (after each enemy is killed, RNG determines drop from a list.

Perhaps a clever gaming company would come up with a drop list like yours, but this is Sega we are talking about.

you make a good point here lol
earlier on today i just got accepted for computer game design in university so maby one day ill be doing it haha *dreams*

[mvffin]

my theory is that it revolves around time, kinda like PSO beat time or whatever.

seems like sometimes I'll do a few runs at Sleeping Warriors, and I'll get a few Polymer but not much else. another day, I'll do a few runs, and get a couple Catilium, but no polymers. Or sometimes I'll find a few relic edges. but never a nice combination of the three. >_>

[Cracka_J]

Post a pic of your character with TWO Millas in your inventory by Monday and I guarantee everyone will believe you.

Just two you say?

[spoiler-box]http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh101/jimlap13/psu20090116_173258_005.jpg[/spoiler-box]

I found them all with a special clothing combination that I will not discuss here.

I also used a v1 room with special decoration on the red square.

[BIGGIEstyle]

It would never have been with a special picture editing software, would it Cracka? LoL

Why'd you have to ruin it? I seriously wanted to see the guy hunting for two millas and coming back empty handed :P

[shadowsniper6]

think of it like rain or hail snow complete random from sky. but it will hit the same spot if you wait long enough this is much quicker then a pc such as the dice and cards in the game. but when it completes a cycle it will restart. like a cd player on random without repeat on after it finshes the songs it is over reguardless the order the cards and dice have been set on repeat that is y u can get the same card 2 times in a row

Sooo... you are saying that if i kill the only monster in b1 on "Map A","room 6" (lets say 7 min into it)lets say i will get a catillium... if i do it again on "Map A","room 6", b1 (again 7 min into it) i will still get a catilium?


...also i only read up to page 6 lol time to finish reading

[toxic_rf]

This theory does corroborate somewhat with my own observations over the past two years.

I tended to find that certain items (area drops like Relic Edges or annoying Ryo-Crezashi boards) dropped for me in certain places more often than anywhere else. I'm not saying any one map variation consistently dropped a certain item, just that it felt a bit more frequent on certain map variations, and more precisely, in certain rooms.

[one2]

ok well if u look at the maps the b section is the one that seams to yield rares b-3, b-x, im not saying u will get just one item from these maps but simply that they are on a rotation. and map b-3 seems to drop a rare almost every time.. hence i have been running map b-3, b-x at the sakura blast mish. and i have got at least 2 or 3 of every rare item that drops there... Expt Milla, not saying this is a failure... but it has been fun