tornado dance complainers

[Inazuma]

now that ive gotten my feet wet w/ my new FM, ive experienced first hand various players reactions to tornado dance. some use it too, some dont use it but dont mind me using it, some play as FM or FG themselves but simply choose not to use it, and others complain like crazy as soon as they see it being used.

first off, i wanna say that i understand everyone has the freedom to play the game the way they want to. if you want to play as FM but not use tornado dance, fine. if you want to play as newman WT, even past type lv 10, thats fine too. its its the players choice how they want to raise their character.

also, if the party leader wants to add a comment "dont go ahead" or "no tornado dance" "no FM" whatever, thats fine too.

but what upsets me are players who seem to think that using tornado dance automatically makes you an asshole and they act like you are breaking the rules. like its some unspoken rule to never use tornado dance, and try to stick together as much as possible.

now whats interesting about this is, the game itself encourages the exact opposite. the faster you travel around and clear the mission, and the more the party splits up, the more you are rewarded for it. so if psu itself favors clearing missions fast, it shouldnt be a problem for someone to play accordingly, right?

so if i join a random party that has no mention of tornado dance in the comment, wouldnt it make sense to go by the games rules at that point? why should one be expected to wait around for buffs, or purposely go slow in general? is the whole point of the game to keep everyone as close together as possible? as if there was a rubber band around the party and if you traveled too far apart, it would snap, causing everyone to fail the mission. i dont get it.

instead of bitching about a player trying his best, why not change something about yourself instead of throwing a fit and booting him from the party? you could use tornado dance yourself, or run ahead of the FM so you can get ready for a monster spawn before he gets there. or, you can take a different path than him, instead of chasing after him. take some responsibility for your own choices. its not fair to blame a player for trying hard at the game. you chose to be weak or slow in the first place, so deal w/ it.

after saying all this, it doesnt bother me as much as it may seem. i would just prefer if more players viewed tornado dance or trying your best in general as an acceptable way to play the game. psu is about killing monsters, making meseta and improving your char. its not the end of the world if someone does just that.

ive decided to always do my best and never lower myself to favor being slow and weak just so i can appease some players who get upset at the sight of anyone appearing strong . if someone in the party has a problem w/ me b/c i appear too fast or strong or "gung-ho" for their likings, fine. ill be happy to leave anyway since i shouldnt be wasting my time w/ someone like that in the first place. its a good way to weed out all half ass players who not only choose failure for themselves, but have to force it onto everyone around them.

tl;dr ver:

to those players who prefer to be weak and slow, over strong and fast, i think thats perfectly acceptable if you want to play the game that way, but please dont expect everyone else to automatically play by your rules. if you chose never to run in a soccer match and insisted on walking only, its not fair to make others feel obligated to do the same.

[stukasa]

I understand what you're saying and I think I've read enough of your posts to know your "PSU philosophy." Just remember that most people don't play that way--they play for fun, not to be the best, BUT they also want to get EXP. Also, most people party together because it's fun to play with other people. That's the difference between playing WITH someone and playing BESIDE them. I think most people expect their teammates to stay together and help them out. By running ahead, you give the impression that you're not part of the team and are taking all the EXP for yourself.

I know you have your own way of playing. In this game you're allowed to play how you want, but keep in mind that most people have different priorities and you're probably going to continue having this problem. If you want to avoid the problem, don't Tornado Dance ahead when playing with strangers. Or, just mention it at the beginning of the run so they understand how you play. If you don't mention it, don't be surprised if some people don't like it.

[beatrixkiddo]

I think lots of PSU ideals (using the absolutely strongest attacks, moving as fast as possible and splitting up accordingly) get put on the back burner when people are trying to get EXP.

Though I definately think that they should put something in the comment if they have enough of a problem with it to boot you.

[Syl]

Going by that one example given, Tornado Dance would actually be like drop kicking the other team's players in the face with your cleats to steal the ball; It's only going to make things slower because you have to stop everything and give the players a penalty kick.

If you were in a LOLSPEEDRUN group sure it's understandable to fuck shit up ASAP. But in a group of randoms, common sense dictates you don't want to spread the mobs into outer space and have players miss out on exp. Especially considering most of the time mobs won't be 1 shotted, unless I missed the memo on that one. But then again like Bea said, if they didn't put it in the comment they couldn't expect anything less. Though it's also within their right to boot you since it's their party.

But with your well known history as a selfish, "dedicated" player... I highly doubt any form of good intentions. Why don't you just go solo and stop crying about it? You can't piss yourself off because you're obviously the best ^______^ Or play with other people that care way too much about this game. Not everyone wants to be #1 top player DPS in PSU. Some people play for... gee, I don't know.

Fun. Visit your local library and ask for more information!

Also, in b4 flawed close minded retort

[Inazuma]

Going by that one example given, Tornado Dance would actually be like drop kicking the other team's players in the face with your cleats to steal the ball; It's only going to make things slower because you have to stop everything and give the players a penalty kick.

If you were in a LOLSPEEDRUN group sure it's understandable to fuck shit up ASAP. But in a group of randoms, common sense dictates you don't want to spread the mobs into outer space and have players miss out on exp. Especially considering most of the time mobs won't be 1 shotted, unless I missed the memo on that one. But then again like Bea said, if they didn't put it in the comment they couldn't expect anything less. Though it's also within their right to boot you since it's their party.

But with your well known history as a selfish, "dedicated" player... I highly doubt any form of good intentions. Why don't you just go solo and stop crying about it? You can't piss yourself off because you're obviously the best ^______^ Or play with other people that care way too much about this game. Not everyone wants to be #1 top player DPS in PSU. Some people play for... gee, I don't know.

Fun. Visit your local library and ask for more information!

Also, in b4 flawed close minded retort

im no soccer expert but isnt it against the rules to kick other players in the face? its not against the rules to use tornado dance in psu, so that analogy doesnt work. maybe it would be like if a player had a really good shot that he could score goals easily w/, and he used it every chance he had. or a team that had a really skilled player and they would pass the ball to him often.

i agree w/ you about spreading monsters around and slowing down the party. of course thats a bad idea. i havent reached S3 missions yet, but ive been able to one shot medium and small monsters 30 levels above me for a while now. pretty much the only monsters i cant one shot yet are the big ones, so jarbroga wont knock em back anyway.

[Sir_Satyr]

This is exactly why I for the most part don't play in random parties, and keep missions I am leader of locked with a PW all my friends know.

Back during MAG, I went from Fighgunner to Acrofighter because two very unpleasant Fighgunners joined my party and then started to knock each and every enemy about the map spamming Tornado Dance like there was no tomorrow and like it was the only move they were capable of doing. I couldn't hit a damn thing, kept chasing stuff down only to watch it die in front of me before I could hit it. It is just so incredibly annoying to have people take over a mission like that. Kind of made me ashamed to have a Fighgunner when I encountered those two clowns.

Eventually I went back to Fightgunner and just recently over to Fighmaster. Love that damn class. Yes I do use Tornado Dance myself. It is not the only thing I use though. I just mainly reserve that technique for bosses and the bigger creatures. As far as just killing everything in one shot, I just stand back, let people get a few hits in and then swoop in for the kill. Haven't had any complaints on that so far!

[Rasputin]

Dear Tornado Dance users,

Fuck off.

Signed, Tornado Dance complainers.

[Powder Keg]

I almost have Gravity capped so I'm gonna start using Tornado soon....if someone is bothered by it I'll stop, but I only really like to use it on enemies who don't really get blasted away by it. And sometimes, the knock-away is better than getting pelted by 90934 digas.

[Seority]

TD is mainly useful for killing off big monsters and bosses (as far as double saber PAs go).
In my parties, we actually go faster if the mobs stay close. Spreading them out actually makes the run go slower. So if you are in a random party TDing, and the party doesn't like it, be curtious and stop, or leave it if you wish. Spiral Dance is a better PA for the Event (to me) anyway. You could start your own parties and TD all you want, even though I'm not sure many people would stay lol.

It's not wrong to TD all the time just like it's not wrong to Jabrogga everything, or whip everything. It's just annoying as other players to chase down all the now spead out enimies and kill them off one by one instead of as a group.

[Inazuma]

i get the feeling some of you didnt read my original post. im talking about using tornado dance for transportation, not for attacking. if someone was knocking enemies all over the place w/ tornado dance in my party and slowing everyone down, id be upset too.

[Seority]

The thing with going ahead of everybody is that you reach enimies faster then everyone else, and if you are strong enough, you kill them before everyone else can tag. That's what they were complaining about.
I agree that finishing the mission faster and killing more bosses in an amount of time gets you faster exp, but thing is, most people don't have much time, so they just want the little exp that they can grab in one run.

I don't think it's any hatred they have against TD, but against you "stealing" their exp.

[Inazuma]

The thing with going ahead of everybody is that you reach enimies faster then everyone else, and if you are strong enough, you kill them before everyone else can tag. That's what they were complaining about.
I agree that finishing the mission faster and killing more bosses in an amount of time gets you faster exp, but thing is, most people don't have much time, so they just want the little exp that they can grab in one run.

I don't think it's any hatred they have against TD, but against you "stealing" their exp.

im not to blame for stealing their exp b/c they have the same option of using tornado dance like every other player. its their own fault. this reminds me of mario kart DS players who complain about others using turbos to drive faster, and get so upset when they see someone trying their best to drive fast.

if you choose a slow or weak character on purpose, you shouldnt be surprised or upset when you come across players who are doing much better than you w/ strong characters. and if it bothers you that much, you can always be leader and add extra rules in the party comments.

later on when im lv 170, im thinking about banning all non Cast FM/GM/PR players from my parties. and maybe also limiting the members to 2 or 3. thank god for the comments section.

[Smidge204]

im not to blame for stealing their exp b/c they have the same option of using tornado dance like every other player.

Except, y'know, the ones that can't use Double Sabers...

You should party with a bunch of Fortegunners using grenade launchers and Mayalee prism sometime. If you actually manage to land a hit on anything I'd be dutifully impressed.

That said, I don't think you're an asshole for using TD... but I do think you're an asshole for making that post.
=Smidge=

[Inazuma]

Except, y'know, the ones that can't use Double Sabers...

You should party with a bunch of Fortegunners using grenade launchers and Mayalee prism sometime. If you actually manage to land a hit on anything I'd be dutifully impressed.

That said, I don't think you're an asshole for using TD... but I do think you're an asshole for making that post.
=Smidge=

what i meant by that comment was, every player has the choice to use FM or not. and playing w/ fGs using knockback bullets wouldnt prevent me from landing hits since i play as FM now. if anything, its the other way around :P

[Tyreek]

So you're saying... You're not to be held responsible if they can't tag enemies because you wanna use Tornado Dance a lot? Yes, they can be FM whenever they want, but what if they are trying to be good at something else hmm? This makes me question how you operate with an actual team.

[Inazuma]

So you're saying... You're not to be held responsible if they can't tag enemies because you wanna use Tornado Dance a lot? Yes, they can be FM whenever they want, but what if they are trying to be good at something else hmm? This makes me question how you operate with an actual team.

when im playing w/ others who share the same goal of clearing missions fast, we have quite a bit of teamwork. just the other day i was doing seed express w/ 2 other FMs. we had discussions about how we can kill monsters faster and work together. for example, when we reached the sorcs at the end, one player would keep em frozen w/ traps while the others attacked freely. then when the next set of sorcs appeared, i would be the one to keep em frozen. the 3 of us cleared seed express S2 in 7 mins. not bad considering i was only lv 100, and another player was a lv 143 human.

the more someone cares about clearing missions faster, the more teamwork there is gonna be. its the players who prefer to go slowly that dont care about teamwork. or, their idea of good teamwork is to stick together, or to spam support techs.

[furrypaws]

I think the main problem is you're looking for speed. The speed run mentality is all right under certain conditions, but just keep in mind that everyone doesn't just want to just kill everything the second it appears. Some people, you know, actually like to hit things too. And, yes, we all could become level 15/20 (whatever the cap is now) Fighmasters and spam level 50 Tornado Dance over and over, but like you yourself said, some of us do not like to play that way. If you're not going to respect their style of playing, I don't see why they should respect yours.

[thunder-ray]

I think the main problem is you're looking for speed. The speed run mentality is all right under certain conditions, but just keep in mind that everyone doesn't just want to just kill everything the second it appears. Some people, you know, actually like to hit things too. And, yes, we all could become level 15/20 (whatever the cap is now) Fighmasters and spam level 50 Tornado Dance over and over, but like you yourself said, some of us do not like to play that way. If you're not going to respect their style of playing, I don't see why they should respect yours.I agree to this.

[darkante]

I just started to use Tornado Dance 2 days ago, but i try to respect that people will get annoyed if a blow everything away.

So if anything, i use it for...

A: Big foes, non melee resistant.
B: Very tiny rooms like the "Polty P.A exp room" on teh carnival, everyone still get a chance to tag there easiely.
C: To just use it as a mean of faster transport.
D: Soloing is where kaos belongs! ;D

See, i´m not that evil. XD
I´m not always after big numbers (FighGunner if you haven´t figured it out), sometimes you just want to spice things up a bit.

[Seority]

if you choose a slow or weak character on purpose, you shouldnt be surprised or upset when you come across players who are doing much better than you w/ strong characters.

I guess if someone was purposly trying to be weak, they shouldn't really complian, but the thing is, there ARE new players and casual players on PSU who just play for fun, not for speed.
When I join random A rank parties with my level 150s, I don't use my full force when attacking so that the level 50s can tag.
You do need to learn that there are people who just arn't as "strong" as you are, even if they tried their hardest. If they don't want to speed run, or can't, don't go against their wishes, as furry stated, otherwise don't join them.

[Smidge204]

what i meant by that comment was, every player has the choice to use FM or not. and playing w/ fGs using knockback bullets wouldnt prevent me from landing hits since i play as FM now. if anything, its the other way around :P

"It's not my fault they chose a class that sucks."

That pretty much how I read your post in the first place, and this doesn't really help your position.
=Smidge=

[Kard]

I don't agree with the general notion that playing for fun and playing to win (or for efficiency in general) have to be different; they are identical for some.

It's just a shame that so many action RPGs, like PSU, don't allow different play styles to mix well. If you're after exp, you'll want to tag and or kill as much as you can, but if more powerful "teammate" who cares only about clearing missions quickly destroys everything before you can even reach it, then you're only holding each other back.

I see it as a "don't hate the player, hate the game" situation, especially as it's hard enough to find enjoyable, random parties in the first place.

[Inazuma]

"It's not my fault they chose a class that sucks."

That pretty much how I read your post in the first place, and this doesn't really help your position.
=Smidge=

so you are saying that it IS my fault they chose a class that sucks?

[Cracka_J]

I agree with inazuma on this one. The point most acro's/ft's don't get (while they try to buff and cry that someone flew ahead) is that the person in front (though likely taking some exp on stage away from them), will get them to the end/boss faster for even more exp. They will earn exp/mp quicker, they will earn meseta faster, they will have more chances at drops due to the party moving at a faster rate. All which are good things, no?

If the complaint is about PA exp, well, consider the time spent trying to level something with 5 other people. I don't join random parties to level random PA's...I do that shit on my spare time, and it gets done at a much faster rate then if I was to try doing it with randoms. It would waste both mine and their time, being beneficial to nobody.

I think the people that get pissed about TD are the ones that don't fully understand what is happening in the big picture. Sure, the people running ahead don't have little colored icons next to their names, and they might absorb some of the smaller exp. However the FM's are trying to do their job just as much as you are trying to do yours, and it's beneficial to everyone in the party. Give it a try next time instead of complaining and see how much more exp/money/drops you get compared to playing with people who just "run with the pack". It may just surprise you.

[Inazuma]

I agree with inazuma on this one. The point most acro's/ft's don't get (while they try to buff and cry that someone flew ahead) is that the person in front (though likely taking some exp on stage away from them), will get them to the end/boss faster for even more exp. They will earn exp/mp quicker, they will earn meseta faster, they will have more chances at drops due to the party moving at a faster rate. All which are good things, no?

If the complaint is about PA exp, well, consider the time spent trying to level something with 5 other people. I don't join random parties to level random PA's...I do that shit on my spare time, and it gets done at a much faster rate then if I was to try doing it with randoms. It would waste both mine and their time, being beneficial to nobody.

I think the people that get pissed about TD are the ones that don't fully understand what is happening in the big picture. Sure, the people running ahead don't have little colored icons next to their names, and they might absorb some of the smaller exp. However the FM's are trying to do their job just as much as you are trying to do yours, and it's beneficial to everyone in the party. Give it a try next time instead of complaining and see how much more exp/money/drops you get compared to playing with people who just "run with the pack". It may just surprise you.

its nice to see someone who understands the game (^_^)

its important to know that the stronger the other team members are in comparison to yourself, the more you will benefit from having them in your party. when a strong FM joins your party, they are basically giving you a big pile of meseta. so its not unreasonable for me to be upset if someone complains about me giving them lots of meseta.

[furrypaws]

You keep talking about the benefits to the team, but these benefits are useless if the team isn't trying to do speed runs.

Look, if we're trying to clear an S2 mission in under 5 minutes, sure, go ahead and spam the heck out of everything. But, if I'm just in a casual mood, it's no fun for me if all I'm doing is watching you obliterate everything in two seconds, and it's definitely not fun if I'm just following you not even watching you obliterate because you refuse to stay with the party. If I don't care about the items, EXP, MP, which I don't, then all of your justifications are naught.

[Smidge204]

Of course I don't think it's "your fault" that other players choose a different class. As I already said, quite clearly, I don't think you're an asshole for using TD.

It's the particular flavor of elitism with a hint of arrogance in your posts that makes me label you an asshole. Nothing you have said since has convinced me otherwise.



when a strong FM joins your party, they are basically giving you a big pile of meseta.

You're going to have to elaborate on that, because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Just a point of personal curiosity, and of no relevance or consequence to this topic: XBox 360 or PC/PS2?
=Smidge=

[Cracka_J]

If I don't care about the items, EXP, MP, which I don't, then all of your justifications are naught.

Wow, then you pay $10 a month for a glorified chat engine?

I mean, I really don't care if you do...but then maybe you shouldn't be creating open random parties if all you wanna do is chat it up with friends.
Cause besides getting items, exp and mp, there really isn't much else to the game besides chatting.

Smidge, re-read what I posted, Inazuma was discussing that.
A fast, powerful FM will decrease run times, increasing exp/mp/meseta earned in an allotted time. It has nothing to do with speed runs, or bragging rights. It has to do with not wanting to waste your time when you're playing the game. Like I said above, unless you're playing the game just as a $10 a month chat engine, you WILL care about your time invested in gaining exp/mp/meseta. FM + tornado makes that happen faster, and benefits everyone.

[furrypaws]

I suppose you could call it that. I have roots in PSO, so this game appeals to me, and I like the gameplay. It also is a nice way to keep in touch. It's not like I'm paying $10 a month to sit in a lobby and talk to people all day, I play the game. But if all that matters to you in a game is numbers, then so be it.

So, yes. But, in that same mindset, you pay $10 a month for a job. And, let's face it. What won't matter four years from now when this game is long gone is how high leveled your character was, how much meseta you owned, or how leet your rares were. It was whether you had fun with the game and enjoyed your experience. By joining games and spamming Tornado Dance when people ask you not to, you are effectively ruining their experience. Of course you could argue that your entertainment is no better than theirs, but honestly. You're joining their game, not the other way around. If you join a game, and you're asked to follow a rule, but don't, you're fully liable to be kicked. Don't start whining, because that's how it works everywhere/. And, I don't mean in the worlds of MMOs, either. If it's your game and you feel they aren't keeping up, you can boot them too. You should generally put things like that in the group description, but a warning will do.

Besides, there are plenty of other people who share your mindset for you to play with.

[Inazuma]

Of course I don't think it's "your fault" that other players choose a different class. As I already said, quite clearly, I don't think you're an asshole for using TD.

It's the particular flavor of elitism with a hint of arrogance in your posts that makes me label you an asshole. Nothing you have said since has convinced me otherwise.




You're going to have to elaborate on that, because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Just a point of personal curiosity, and of no relevance or consequence to this topic: XBox 360 or PC/PS2?
=Smidge=

its fine if you want to think im an asshole, but im really not one at all. i bet you are actually more of an asshole than i am.

cracka j saved me the trouble of explaining what i meant so i wont bother to repeat him.

and i play on the jp pc ver, b/c its the best ver available. i actually learned japanese so i could play it.

[biggabertha]

I am completely torn when it comes to things like this.

On the one hand, I LOVE the idea of time attacking, doing the best your class can do in order to achieve the goal of clearing the mission in the fastest possible time with friends that share the same idea. I LOVE how co-ordinated you all must be in order to achieve this.

On the other hand, things can get REALLY ugly when something goes wrong or the run goes sour or one person isn't happy with the way things are going.


I like the analogy of football (soccer to the Americanised) when it comes to playing PSU.

In order to win the match, your team needs to work together. The players need to work as one in order to defend and attack the opposition and they need to each do their best. Everyone's having fun doing it - it's a sport afterall. It's a game.

Sure, you can do casual matches too but you still want to work as a team.


What I don't get though, don't Fighmasters think the REST of the party is slowing them down if they don't have the same method of transportation? That's been the real one thing that's really bothered me about Tornado Dance.

(I don't even see Tornado Dance as an attacking move at all - it's ALWAYS been a way to move in my eyes. Just... that sound effect...)

[afterthoughtz]

Agreed, i have buddies that use tornado dance to move quickly towards the enemies...then out come the spears with majarra lol

[Cracka_J]

also, if the party leader wants to add a comment "dont go ahead" or "no tornado dance" "no FM" whatever, thats fine too.

///

so if i join a random party that has no mention of tornado dance in the comment, wouldnt it make sense to go by the games rules at that point? why should one be expected to wait around for buffs, or purposely go slow in general? is the whole point of the game to keep everyone as close together as possible? as if there was a rubber band around the party and if you traveled too far apart, it would snap, causing everyone to fail the mission. i dont get it.


By joining games and spamming Tornado Dance when people ask you not to, you are effectively ruining their experience. Of course you could argue that your entertainment is no better than theirs, but honestly. You're joining their game, not the other way around. If you join a game, and you're asked to follow a rule, but don't, you're fully liable to be kicked.

furrypaws, first off don't think I'm trying to flame you - I'm not. I'm not assuming you think that either, but I've kinda been singling out your posts. We're having a pretty decent conversation about this so by all means keep it going if you have more to add.

Re-read the posts above by you and Inazuma. He never makes any mention of joining any party that has a "no TD" comment. In fact he says that's perfectly fine if you add it to the comment.

If he was just being a douche and joining parties with that comment and spamming TD just to get their opinions, well, that would be a different story. But he's joining open, random parties (with no comment) that are telling him after the fact that they're not cool with him moving faster. So is he just supposed to go and be booted from party after party for trying to help the team move faster? How is making you more exp/mp/items/meseta hindering your experience and overall enjoyment? I don't understand that.

[stukasa]

How is making you more exp/mp/items/meseta hindering your experience and overall enjoyment? I don't understand that.
I understand it clearly. If you don't, you probably have different goals and motivations than furrypaws. Enjoyment of the game doesn't just come from the end result (EXP/MP/items/meseta), it comes from the journey to get there. I think what furrypaws is trying to say is that it doesn't matter if the party gets more EXP/MP/items/meseta if it's not fun to do so. And it's not fun to run behind a FM that's killing all the enemies for you. If you're not a FM you basically have no hope of keeping up and can only run from room to room watching the FMs do all the work.

That way of playing isn't "wrong" but it kind of destroys the team spirit and makes the run less fun for the other players.

[Cracka_J]

Enjoyment of the game doesn't just come from the end result (EXP/MP/items/meseta), it comes from the journey to get there. I think what furrypaws is trying to say is that it doesn't matter if the party gets more EXP/MP/items/meseta if it's not fun to do so. And it's not fun to run behind a FM that's killing all the enemies for you. If you're not a FM you basically have no hope of keeping up and can only run from room to room watching the FMs do all the work.

See, now we're getting to the core issue. So what it breaks down to is 2 different ways of looking at it:

• Fighmaster goes ahead earning faster exp/mp/mes/drops for party. The people who place importance on those things realize what the fighmaster is doing, and appreciate them for it.

or

• Fighmaster goes ahead of party members. Certain party members get their personal enjoyment out of the game by killing enemies, forcing them to trail the fighmaster. They are no longer able to kill certain spawns, and are forced to follow a party member at times, limiting their personal enjoyment.

If that's not the 2 points of view you're trying to present, please correct me. However, under the assumption that it is, which of the 2 points of view is really more selfish? With the first view, you are sacrificing some of the things you enjoy doing, but for the benefit of the entire party. With the second point of view, you are obtaining your personal satisfaction, but at the expense of the party's time.

I thought the entire point of PSU was to enjoy what you were doing, but actually be a team player at the same time. The second pov only benefits yourself. The first benefits the team. People may think that sticking together as a team is really what "team player" means. It's not. By being a team player, you have to allow every party member to do their job at their fullest extent. If that involves FM's flying ahead at the benefit of everyone, I'm very much for it. If you're not, all Inazuma said would really fix the problem is if you just put a comment in your open party. What's so hard about that?

[Smidge204]

You are not necessarily increasing EXP for the party by killing faster. While it is not a direct ratio, you do not get full EXP for an enemy you only 'tagged' before someone else killed it.

Your "faster = more often" argument falls apart on the assumption that people are willing and able to play for an arbitrary amount of time. If they only have, say, 15 minutes before they have to go, reducing a run to 8 minutes down from 10 is not terribly significant. And even if they do have the time, they might want to do something else with it.

I think the "I'm doing you a favor!" attitude is what really needs to be tempered here. If your skills were that valuable, you'd be invited often enough to never need joining a random for a party.

I believe you were the one who said "I don't join random parties to level random PA's...I do that shit on my spare time" - well what if you're the one butting in to someone else's party? You're not helping. Do not assume everyone will feel blessed by your presence. You will not necessarily be greeted as liberators. This is why you and Inazuma come off as assholes (though Inazuma gets extra points for the class elitism). Do you even ask if it's okay to join when you first show up? Or is it always "their fault" for not setting a password/comment? Do you ever complain when you get booted "at random" or "for no good reason"?

If you really want to do others a favor, let the random people play the way they want and either solo yourself or group with people you know want to play with you.
=Smidge=

[Cracka_J]

YIf you really want to do others a favor, let the random people play the way they want and either solo yourself or group with people you know want to play with you.
=Smidge=

Haha..already 10 steps ahead of you there man.
It's the reason why I'd rather solo then play with randoms, and the reason why I enjoy the game much more when I play with friends who have the same mindset.

I'm sorry if I didn't get that point across earlier, but if you want me to clarify further, I DESPISE PLAYING WITH RANDOMS. Much because, yes, I do feel like I'm wasting my time, and yes, I could be soloing faster.

But that's completely besides the point, and an entirely different subject/rant on it's own. If you don't like the playstyles of others, and know for a fact that there are people out there (like me) who play to obtain the most in the shortest time periods, why are you not locking your parties?!? Why are you not putting a comment up?!? The only thing that's left that comes to mind is either 1) laziness or 2) the need for more powerful players in your party to help you advance. If you say 1, well you have yourself to blame for that. If you say 2, you've just contradicted everything that's been posted in this thread about not wanting faster exp/mp/meseta/items.

What I will agree with you on is the casual player who only has a few minutes to do, say, 1 run in a 15 minute period. You're correct there, they will not be able to reap the full rewards I was discussing.

As far as me and Inazuma coming off as assholes, highly suggest reading some of his past topics. You'll see we rarely see eye to eye on ANYTHING PSU related, but this topic is something I can't disagree with him on.

But feel free to label me however you want man, idc. I'm just discussing the topic at hand, you're the one throwing out names.

[thunder-ray]

I just have a strange feeling this is going to turn into a big arguement >_<. Well anyways to me the problem with TD isnt too much of a problem for me aleast. If Im playing as my MF or FG I dont seem to have a problem with tagging anything. Since techs have range tagging isnt a problem with that class. For my FG its the same thing Rifles, Shotguns, Lasers and handguns have a good amount of range so I can still get exp. Hell even with my FF I can still tag a few mobs even though im slower then the FM.

In my own opinion (this is just my opinion only) I could care less if the FM is spamming TD since im still getting exp from the mission. For me 3 of my chars are close to capping. I dont like capping just to see exp full for awhile untill the lvl cap goes up again.

[Sidney]

I personally do not have a problem with Tornado Dance, but on the other hand, I've only played with a small handful of Fighmasters who are actually good. Now, a good Fighmaster is godly and pummels through anything he comes across, and yes, makes it harder for me to tag enemies. But most of the Fighmasters I've played with in random parties must be very casual, as they tend to die a lot, lack the ability to dodge, and spam one PA the whole mission. I'd rather play with the former than babysit the latter... (I play AT/FT, for reference.) Some of the bad FMs I've played with use Tornado Dance to get ahead of everyone else, and then subsequently die from a strong mob.

Now, I'm sure you FMs who are posting in this thread are very good, so don't take what I said the wrong way. :lol: I'm mainly referring to the average "Joe-Schmo" FM I run across in random parties.

My standard is this: if I join a party that doesn't fit my playstyle, I leave. I'd rather leave and miss out on a little bit of MP than spend the whole run frustrated. A few days ago, I joined a party who were doing every stage of the Charged Puzzle mission for the spheres and were sticking together for the whole run. I prefer to only run the stages necessary to get to a boss and to split up, mainly because I find the latter more fun. (Not necessarily speed-running, I just like the challenge of splitting and being cooperative and efficient.) So I simply explained this politely and said, "Sorry about that, thanks for the party!" and left. I subsequently found a party that was my cup of tea, made a few new friends, and had a blast.

Also, for me, I play with my friends when I want to relax and have a good time, and play with randoms when I want to grind or get EXP/MP. With my friends, we tend to just end up chatting and slowly killing enemies, which I enjoy a lot! But when I actually need to get something done, I prefer randoms. I suppose I'm just very easily distracted... :p

[Lyrix]

But that's completely besides the point, and an entirely different subject/rant on it's own. If you don't like the playstyles of others, and know for a fact that there are people out there (like me) who play to obtain the most in the shortest time periods, why are you not locking your parties?!? Why are you not putting a comment up?!? The only thing that's left that comes to mind is either 1) laziness or 2) the need for more powerful players in your party to help you advance. If you say 1, well you have yourself to blame for that. If you say 2, you've just contradicted everything that's been posted in this thread about not wanting faster exp/mp/meseta/items.

Well, I would go ahead and say that most people start an open party in a populated universe because they want to play with other people, so locking it would entirely defeat that purpose, and saying they didn't lock the party because they want someone more powerful to join is ridiculous, because I could just as easily create an open C rank party, and due to lack of password I would apparently be lazy or in need of help? XD

On the comment front, there is NO way that people could write out their play style in that tiny ass comment box, nor should the party creator feel the need to spell it out to everyone that joins the party.

And on the initial topic, get over it, people didn't like how you played and you got booted, go cry about it. The way you play is no more right than anyone else's, but if you join their game, you should expect to play by their rules.

[Smidge204]

1) laziness or 2) the need for more powerful players in your party to help you advance.


And here we find the crux of the issue: Your complete inability to see the issue as anything other than the other person's laziness or ineptitude.

Here's a scenario that doesn't fit into your little dichotomy: Maybe they just forgot? Maybe, in the course of sorting out their weapons/elements just prior to starting the mission, or other distraction, it slipped their mind to set a password or comment. Happens to me all the time, though I'm getting more diligent about it running the event mission and all.

But you seem to be of the opinion that if someone forgets to lock the door or put out the "do not disturb" sign, it's perfectly reasonable to burst in without knocking. Obviously they want you to, because hey! If they didn't desperately need the help they would have preemptively told you to take a hike.

Even though you said you don't do it, the attitude you present is such.
=Smidge=

[Inazuma]

On the comment front, there is NO way that people could write out their play style in that tiny ass comment box, nor should the party creator feel the need to spell it out to everyone that joins the party.

i dont know how players write comments on eng ver, but on jp ver there are few common phrases i see that work well.

先行ｘ　Senkou x　（Dont travel ahead of the other players)

S評価狙い　S　Hyouka Nerai　（Aiming for S rank reward)

敵無視　Teki mushi　（Ignore monsters when possible)

PA上げOK　PA age OK　（Its ok to level PAｓ）

MFｘ　（No MFs)

４人〆　Yonin shime　（４　Player limit)

[CelestialBlade]

i dont know how players write comments on eng ver, but on jp ver there are few common phrases i see that work well.

先行ｘ　Senkou x　（Dont travel ahead of the other players)

S評価狙い　S　Hyouka Nerai　（Aiming for S rank reward)

敵無視　Teki mushi　（Ignore monsters when possible)

PA上げOK　PA age OK　（Its ok to level PAｓ）

MFｘ　（No MFs)

４人〆　Yonin shime　（４　Player limit)
That's a good start, but I think what Lyrix referred to was the ability to write out your full, specific play style in the comment box. But things like "OK to level PAs" generally does get the point across. It's definitely a good list to utilize.

[Cracka_J]

Here's a scenario that doesn't fit into your little dichotomy: Maybe they just forgot? Maybe, in the course of sorting out their weapons/elements just prior to starting the mission, or other distraction, it slipped their mind to set a password or comment. Happens to me all the time, though I'm getting more diligent about it running the event mission and all.

Why is it my fault if you forgot to do something?
And you're really jumping to conclusions as if you think you know me off of a few internet posts...I really don't think that's fair, and I'm in no way making the same judgment call on you.

Just fyi, if a player forgets to lock a party and I join, if they ask politely, I'll remove myself. It's not that big a deal. Same would happen if I was in a party that complained about TD, I'd just remove myself. I don't spend time in-game whining about how other people play, I really got better things to do...like playing the game.

When I'm bored at work and have nothing better to do then forum browse, well that's a different situation :)

[Tyreek]

As my experience as FM, I had my share of using Tornado Dance at times. I'm a casual player. I would only play on a more serious note when a mission involves serious teamwork. (or party missions if you will.) I also use Tornado Dance to move a bit faster. Not always ahead everytime. As for spamming it, well, I get more use out it when fighting bigger enemies, like the Greede Boodes in the Mission Carnival, but on regular packs, I tend to choose my target(s) to spam it on and leave it at that, while the rest of the team pick off their own targets. Not saying utilizing Tornado Dance as a means of attacking is a bad thing, but it doesn't hurt to have just a tiny bit of restrait. Besides, There's always Spiral Dance, Absolute Dance, and Spinning Dance to use and level up right?

[furrypaws]

Oh, I had no intention that you were flaming me. A discussion is a discussion,m and I was not flaming you either. You would probably notice it if I were youarrogantjerkwad =D


If he was just being a douche and joining parties with that comment and spamming TD just to get their opinions, well, that would be a different story. But he's joining open, random parties (with no comment) that are telling him after the fact that they're not cool with him moving faster. So is he just supposed to go and be booted from party after party for trying to help the team move faster? How is making you more exp/mp/items/meseta hindering your experience and overall enjoyment? I don't understand that.

Rather than set the same comment over and over again for each team, I prefer to tell the person in general when they rush ahead that that's not the way we're playing, etc. If they don't leave after that and continue the behavior (which I have seen countless times), that is warranting a boot.

If you don't understand, maybe I can try explaining it like this. Think backwards for a second. You're playing for the fastest time possible. A good mentality for this would be to use your best photon arts, strongest weapons, and a split-up strategy, correct? If somebody joins and is lagging behind and holding the group back because they're dying, using C rank weapons, and using lower leveled (I mean 1-10) PAs to level them up, you would warn them that if they didn't switch strategies, they would be booted, right? Most likely because their current playing style is not compatible with your goals. Should they pull out their S ranks and level 40 PAs and become super efficient, you would keep them, for they were compliant to the rules, but if they were to not follow along, they would be booted.

Here's my mentality on the game, so we're clear. I hardly play enough to create goals for meseta earning, item drops, or experience. Just being able to play with my friends is good enough for me, considering that none of these amazing items are going to exist five years from now. No, all I'll have to remember my PSU experience by is my memories, and quite frankly, I was never one to grind for EXP, MP, and Meseta. Those things are good, I will admit, but they matter little to me. All I care about is being able to at least hit things, or if I'm playing Acrotecher (which I want to soon!) be an effective support to my group. Neither is likely if all I'm doing is trying to chase down a Fighmaster so I can try and keep up. Tell you what; if I ever want to get the most MP, EXP, and meseta in a short period of time, I'll call you up. Until then, I like to play relaxed (but that doesn't mean lolidied, just I take my time) and for my own entertainment. If what makes you happy from the game is gaining meseta, EXP, and levels, then good for you. Follow what makes you happy. Your ten dollars. Just make sure you're not frustrating anyone else in your path.

Also, I think someone asked me earlier in this thread what a FM's supposed to do after being booted from two groups. They could either create their own (with a comment called FM's welcome if they wanted), or they could just sloooooow down. It might be a little mind numbing at first, but your group will appreciate it a lot.

Also, I agree that under few circumstances should a person be booted without a warning. If, however, you were warned to slow down and did not heed this warning, you shouldn't complain about being booted. If you aren't warned and there's nothing in the title or the description, then you were just unfairly booted. Hey, it happens. EDIT: All though, I should note, not by me.

[Inazuma]

hey furrypaws. which takes more time and effort?

adding "no tornado dance" to the comment or having to explain it to everyone you see who uses it? and did you ever stop and think how the other players feel? they join your party, play their best, and then get booted for rules they had no idea existed. its just selfish imo. add it to the comment so no one has to waste their time.

[furrypaws]

Please read my posts a little more carefully before posting.


I prefer to tell the person in general when they rush ahead that that's not the way we're playing

Also, I agree that under few circumstances should a person be booted without a warning. If, however, you were warned to slow down and did not heed this warning, you shouldn't complain about being booted.

Maybe you were thrown off by the last line of my last post, but I thought it would be clear that I was stating my opinion on the statement, not how I actually booted people. I edited that just to make sure though.

Look, after the fourth or fifth run and jumping between groups, I occasionally forget to make descriptions. I apologize for being human. I also don't think the extra five seconds it takes to type out "Please stay with the group" is going to break my fingers. Besides, I don't even care that much about Tornado Dance. It's just the not sticking-with-the-team-kill-everything-before-anyone-even-enters-the-room mentality. Besides, I've come to learn that descriptions are becoming pointless. Either people ignore them completely, or they're so paranoid that they'll be immediate booted they don't join. I never boot without a warning. Then, they know the rules exist. They've got their chance. Why is it that it's so hard for any Fighmaster to just slow down and stick with the group? Look, once I warn you, you can either decide my rules are bad and leave by yourself or force me to make you leave, or you can just slow down. Look, it's not as much trouble as you think it is. Just wait the extra five seconds for everyone else to at least hit the danged monsters then go.

And, don't even try to pull the inconsiderate card. Who joined my game? Who refused to follow my rules? It doesn't matter how many games you were booted from before this, if you refuse to follow my rules (which I do clearly state somehow or another should you begin to break them), you do not belong in my game. My rules aren't even that hard to follow, or that ludicrous. Just stick with the team and give us a second or two to hit the enemies. I'm not requesting you to remove all of your photon arts, or switch to B rank weaons (even though you can't) or equip lower leveled PAs. Just stick with me and give me a second to tag things. If you're so fed up with these "ridiculous" rules, for goodness's sakes, just make your own game.

[stukasa]

See, now we're getting to the core issue. So what it breaks down to is 2 different ways of looking at it:

• Fighmaster goes ahead earning faster exp/mp/mes/drops for party. The people who place importance on those things realize what the fighmaster is doing, and appreciate them for it.

or

• Fighmaster goes ahead of party members. Certain party members get their personal enjoyment out of the game by killing enemies, forcing them to trail the fighmaster. They are no longer able to kill certain spawns, and are forced to follow a party member at times, limiting their personal enjoyment.

If that's not the 2 points of view you're trying to present, please correct me.
Yes, that's basically it. Items and leveling up are good but I mainly play for fun. Sometime in the future when the servers shut down the only thing I'll have left of this game are my memories. Do I want to remember playing together with my friends or running behind someone else watching them do everything for me?


However, under the assumption that it is, which of the 2 points of view is really more selfish? With the first view, you are sacrificing some of the things you enjoy doing, but for the benefit of the entire party. With the second point of view, you are obtaining your personal satisfaction, but at the expense of the party's time.

I thought the entire point of PSU was to enjoy what you were doing, but actually be a team player at the same time. The second pov only benefits yourself. The first benefits the team. People may think that sticking together as a team is really what "team player" means. It's not. By being a team player, you have to allow every party member to do their job at their fullest extent. If that involves FM's flying ahead at the benefit of everyone, I'm very much for it. If you're not, all Inazuma said would really fix the problem is if you just put a comment in your open party. What's so hard about that?
Smidge already pointed this out but that's not really true, especially for people like me who only play a couple runs at a time (usually). Saving a couple minutes won't give me time to do more runs, and even if I could, I probably wouldn't want to. All it does is give me less EXP and make it less fun to play.

By the way, I've never actually had this problem before. I don't play with randoms and I don't play in open parties. If somehow I forgot to lock my party and forgot to put a comment, that's my fault and I wouldn't blame someone else for playing the way they want to play. If I had a problem with it, I would excuse myself after the run.

On the other hand, I also think that if someone joins a party they are obligated to follow the rules of the leader. Maybe the leader should have put something in the comments about it, but either way, if they tell you to stop rushing ahead, don't blame them if you get booted. Their party, their rules. I wouldn't do that, but I understand why others might.

[Ruru]

eh i honestly dont see the issue here since i mainly solo or play with friends. i never join randoms.

the only reason im posting is because one thing inazuma said kind of hit a nerve and thats the whole "its not my fault they chose a weak class" What makes this comment justifiable?

where do you get off calling other people weak etc for their choice in class/race? and WHY would you want everyone to be FM? in a game this diverse why would you want to see only FMs running around? since its basically what you implied by this comment, you're saying all other classes are obsolete because they arent FM flying around a map as fast as possible to clear the run as fast as possible. stop me if i'm mistaken here. just sounds kind of wrong to me that diversity is ANYONES fault.

other than that though this tornado dance thing really shouldn't be an issue.

[Inazuma]

its like if i pick ken and my opponent picks m bison in street fighter. then he complains and asks me to stop using hadoukens b/c he has no projectile of his own. sorry man, you picked a char w/o projectiles, deal w/ it.

[Tyreek]

In a case like Street Fighter, utilizing Hadoken can only get you so far. It can be spammed yes, but it can also be avoided quite easily with correct timing. But enough about that. You don't get EXP from versus bouts. People have their reasons. If it's your game that they are playing in, then they can up and leave for all you care, but if it's the other way around, and they are asking you to tone it down, well, you have about the same options as well. I don't think this issue about Tornado Dance itself, but more about how it is being utilized. Can it be effective to one and at the same time not disruptive to others? Well, that's up to the user.

[Ezodagrom]

Hmm...so...FMs should just travel and kill enemies as fast as possible, while any other classes could just wait on block 1 near the crystal waiting for the FMs to get to the last block, which would be just as good as running behind the FMs whatching them killing everything :<...
Sounds great to the FMs...sounds boring to anyone else ._.

I'm not against time attacking when it's a party with that purpose...but when it's just a bunch of casual players playing for fun, chatting while playing, not caring about clearing missions as fast as possible...it's a bit rude if a player goes ahead of others killing everything.
The random parties could have a comment saying "Not TA", but those players that want to do things asap could also just join parties that have a comment saying that the party their joining is time attacking (or they could just solo, or play on locked parties with other players like them)...

[biggabertha]

its like if i pick ken and my opponent picks m bison in street fighter. then he complains and asks me to stop using hadoukens b/c he has no projectile of his own. sorry man, you picked a char w/o projectiles, deal w/ it.

What I'm going to say is SO off topic but...

I TOTALLY agree with what you're saying about this comparison.

Me and my friend spent SO MUCH TIME arguing about how necessary it was to have Cable in your team in Marvel Vs. Capcom 2.

Damn.... I HATE Cable... such a turtle... so many broken Dreamcast controllers...

On topic:

Everyone has different views on what's fun. Seems like it's split loosely into three main groups:

Play as efficiently as possible
Play casually, occasionally inefficiently and sometimes idling
Chat

Being booted for Using Tornado Dance to zoom ahead of the party - that really sucks. Booted without warning is really rude.

There was a time, I was told that I should play the way I want to play, not the way others want me to play - and I did. I got booted for some reason, maybe because I'm human.

Casual players whom have open parties in a popular server, are very likely looking for people to join in. The excuse of: forgetting to change the party name, forgetting to set a comment, forgetting to set a password but remembering to change the order of drops - now that's something fishy.


I really think that there are some players just want the satisfaction of booting players out of jealousy or envy. There are definitely some players that boot players just for greed or for the sheer fun of it.

You can't do much about it - they're not losing any sleep about it. They're not stressing over it and it's certainly not going to be the last time that they'll do it.

I truly think that it's really inconsiderate of some players that literally types out:

"Please join!
Everyone's
welcome!"

Then boot you moments later for something you do. Be it your playstyle, your race, your weapon(s) or even your CLOTHES (Got booted for not wearing anything black once..).

It's threads like these, that I enjoy reading through. Why? Because everyone puts forth their hearts to discuss - at great length, what they feel is right or best.

I don't always agree with what Inazuma says but I respect the way he/she puts forth his/her arguments.

But most members that post or those that lurk around, just disregard such views as arrogant. How ironic...


After everything's said and done by me though....

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/Biggabertha/popcorn.gif

[Cracka_J]

In a case like Street Fighter, utilizing Hadoken can only get you so far. It can be spammed yes, but it can also be avoided quite easily with correct timing. But enough about that. You don't get EXP from versus bouts. People have their reasons. If it's your game that they are playing in, then they can up and leave for all you care, but if it's the other way around, and they are asking you to tone it down, well, you have about the same options as well. I don't think this issue about Tornado Dance itself, but more about how it is being utilized. Can it be effective to one and at the same time not disruptive to others? Well, that's up to the user.

Well the analogy inazuma made is summed up like this:
Don't play a character you're unhappy with.

It doesn't have anything to do with fireballs at all.
If people spamming TD makes you unhappy, maybe it's the fact that you're character can't TD and you can't keep up with them. Again, that's not the other players fault, you chose a class/type that doesn't have that ability.

But just like the SF analogy, you don't have to play a fireball char to beat a fireball character. There are ways you can work with a TD FM, but nobody's even really discussed that in depth yet. Anticipate the mobs they will take out, skip to other mobs while they handle off course ones so you can run fast and still get S rank, I dunno, actually try to utilize their ability.

But in that aspect Inazuma is correct. Just like in fighters, people are very quick to jump to what they're character cannot do, instead of utilizing what it can. This thread proves that point 100 fold.

[Tyreek]

Well the analogy inazuma made is summed up like this:
If people spamming TD makes you unhappy, maybe it's the fact that you're character can't TD and you can't keep up with them. Again, that's not the other players fault, you chose a class/type that doesn't have that ability.

Well, that may be one reason, but I'm not sure that itself is the exact reason. I myself, don't have much of a problem, but then again, I haven't actually run into any TD spammers lately. Honestly, my only complaint would be if I need EXP, but I'm capped so I don't care. And PA leveling I can get done on my own.


But just like the SF analogy, you don't have to play a fireball char to beat a fireball character. There are ways you can work with a TD FM, but nobody's even really discussed that in depth yet. Anticipate the mobs they will take out, skip to other mobs while they handle off course ones so you can run fast and still get S rank, I dunno, actually try to utilize their ability.

I can see that being used as a game plan. But hey, not everyone thinks in the same way. I can understand if there were times one would split up ahead, like in MAG, but stages lately have become so linear, that additional areas are locked off because of mobs. ;/ Sakura Blast I can see a method like this being used however.

In any case Cracka_J, since no one has gone in depth as you say, why don't you start us off.

Edit: A question come to mind though. And I ask this of the both of you: How are you using Tornado Dance? Are you mixing it between your attacks, or is it straight up "press the button when the PA is done"?

[Cracka_J]

I use TD for long gaps where I would be walking.
The only time I'd use it in combat is if I was leveling it, and I'd either be doing that on large targets that don't scatter, or the current polty spam area to cap.
Outside of transportation, I really won't use it for attacking.

Just a quick example of where TD would be beneficial, and to use a map that everyone knows, would be the bridge block (with the turrets) on WB. The block starts off with a spawn you don't need to kill if skipping. Party kills that while FM goes down the stairs to necessary kill mob #2. FM skips mob #1, leaving exp to the party. Party/FM reunite briefly if FM hasn't finished mob #2 yet. Gates open, FM goes left across bridge. FM takes out spawn after bridge and goes left into the room, kills the spawn that isn't necessary (if skipping) to maintain S rank. Party in the meantime kills the spawn after the gate, and the spawn in the room to the right. Party continues over bridge, reunites with FM and they finish the rest of the block together. Both party and FM sacrifice a bit of exp and PA leveling, but by doing separate routes have still maintained rank, and have likely cut their run time down quite a bit.

I'm not saying you're gonna find a practical application on every stage, but there are ways to still cooperate as a team and let the FM play how they like. Just most of the time players have standard routines they go by and anyone thinking outside the box isn't being a "team player". With a little communication you could probably get one of these TD players to work for your team, instead of just assuming they're going to be working against it. That's really not the intent.

[Inazuma]

ive only recently started playing as FM but i find myself using tornado dance any time that its faster than walking (in other words, all the time except for very short distances) and also to avoid some attacks. for example, sometimes i see mother brain's 2 handed smash attack coming and i dont have enough time to run, so i will use tornado dance to dodge it.

as for attacking, i almost never use it, except for on rare occasions when i feel its the best attack to use. besides majara and jarbroga which are lv 50, almost all of my skills are extremely low levels, so i cant really consider using them much yet. later on, i will max all skills and hopefully use them a little.

[artidigahunter]

i personally like the tornado dance 2 lvs away from max power offline of course haven't got to experience the full online mayham!

[Delete]

All i can say is, if its in the game, then we can use it. I dont give a 4th season of family guy if someone is using TD, big deal.