My theory on where Character Unbalancing occured.

[RemiusTA]

Kinda got carried away, but i had fun doing it. Used this neat tool here :
http://calc.psupedia.info/index.html
, PSUpedia's Dmg calculator, which ive tested to be pretty damn accurate. (if not almost perfect.)


melee getting the crap beat out of them while doing the least amount of damage is more balanced? gunners and techers can just stand back from a safe distance and dish out damage. techers don't even have to worry about missing. so of course they're not gonna do as great of damage.

Im going to explain my off-the-top theory on what unbalanced this game.

Disclaimers:
[spoiler-box]
***I did NOT factor Rangers into this arguement, simply because its the only class i dont care for. I dont know enough about them to factor in things like DPS just off the top of my head, so ill just leave them out for now. But for the most part, i dont hear anyone complain about their killing capabilities as much as Bullet leveling, so i dont focus on them.***

So this is mostly a Hunter and Force arguement, and how the gap between the best and (currently) worse class came to happen, and how they switched places from PSU Vanilla.

***By the way, i am very much aware of the demigod-tier status of Fortetechers in V1. ***
[/spoiler-box]




------------

Rangers attack from distances, Forces attack from closer distances but with more powerful attacks and more targets. Hunter users were ment to be up-close and personal, so when they get to a target they are able to take it down. (Hence why Hunters are really the only class with multiple hit-box capabilities for larger enemies.) Multiple hitboxes = multiplied damage, which is the main reason Heavy weapons (spears, swords, axes) have the highest potental for damage. The Balance problem in the characters doesnt come from the fact Technics are weak, or bullets are weak...melee attacks are just FAR too powerful for their purpose.

A normal sword slash from a 10/10 50% Agito Repca with a lv 150 Beast fF character should be around 1394 damage. A Lv 50 Foie (powerful single spell) with a 10/10 psycho wand and Lv150 Newman FT (Opposite element) does around 3951 damage. When you factor in the fact that Agito Replica also can have lv 40 Gravity Break with multiple combos, suddendly you can balance off the retarded damage that force is doing, since a single hit with GB Lv40 does anywhere from 5,785 to 7,582 damage, depending on the combo.


......Now, the part where Hunters accel in PSU is Multi-target enemies. Vs a larger enemy, the hunter can now multiply that damage range by anywhere from 2 to 4, even 10 if they're using Jarboga (5 targets x 2 hits). Gravity break on an enemy with 2 hitboxes, suddenly you're doing anywhere from 11,570 -15,164 per combo. Lv40 Jarboga on a DeRagan?.....We're talking like 57,000 damage per use. (granted you dont miss any hits and are using the above GODLY setup.)


Now....Lv40 Rafoie with that same techer i mentioned hits 4 SEPARATE targets, and does around 2540 damage each. If the techer is AoEing all his targets, she just did around 10,000 damage. Factor in that Rafoie comes out FAR quicker than Jarboga, and the fact you can get maybe 4 or 5 casts out per Jarboga cooldown 50,000 damage....the DPS balances out almost perfectly. (theroetically. But im pretty sure its accurate enough.) Although in the instance of fighting the dragon, the Force character is mighty handicapped since they lack hitboxes. The Hunter is a character designed for combat with larger enemies, however, which makes them far more cut out for the job. Rangers also can use grenade launchers to overcome their single-target limitations.


Where does the imbalance occur? Just Attack.


If we return to Lv40 Foie vs. Lv 40 Gravity Break with Godly weapons and gear (10/10 50% agito repica/Psycho Wand), we start to encounter some problems. Set them in the same room with the same enemies. Now, where the force and hunter were somewhat balanced in damage capabilities and roles...when you factor in Just Attack, everything goes to hell. Gravity Break now averages an astounding 8600 - 11292 damage per hit, COMPLETELY eclipsing whatever single damage a Force or Ranger can ever dream of outputting. Combine that with a multitarget enemy? 17,000-33,900 DAMAGE. An extra 50% total damage from nowhere. When you switch to AoEs, even Tornado Break now makes Lv40 Rafoie look like shit while being able to hit from 4-6 targets, each doing between 3659 - 4809 damage at any time in a crowd being able to do anywhere from 14,000 - 29,000 at any point in the combo, which is far removed from the 9,000 -- 19,000 it would do without JA, which is far within a fair range of damage once you factor in accuracy and blowaways.




So basically, Just Attack is what ruined the balance in this game. It has completely taken the roles of the force and thrown it out the window, to the point they really ARE nothing but Healbots anymore, since thats the only thing they still accel in. Proof that Just Attack has nuked the balance of this game is this one video i saw of someone comparing FT Ramegid on damage on light enemies vs a whip, which hits far more targets many more times, but with a weaker attack base.

**
Maxed out Acrofighter with 10/10 50% whip (lets pretend Vish Diraga was Dark element, shall we?)

vs

Maxed out FT lv40 Ramegid, 10/10 Psycho Wand.

hitting as many targets as they can in the time it takes the Acrofighter to finish the combo. For this example, lets PRETEND Vish Diraga has dark element.


Acrofighter damage (without JA) = 1660 dmg per hit, 2-3 hits per combo + 6 targets x 2 combos = 23,000 - 40,000 dmg by end of combo.
Fortetecher damage (4-5 casts in duration with rod w/Har Quick + lv2 Retier buff) = around 2600 dmg per cast, 3-4 casts in duration + 4 hits per cast = 31,000 - 41,000 dmgLooks fair enough, Force has even higher advantage thanks to no accuracy factor, on top of more damage, Force wins AoE challenge.

However, factor in JA for the Whip damage...:


Acrofighter damage (JA'd) = 2500 dmg per hit x 2-3 hits per combo + 6 targets x 2 combos = 30,000 - 45,000 damage.Factor in Just Attack, and even the Acrofighter replaces the Fortetecher in its main field.



I believe that Just Attack was definately needed to make Hunters more fun...but either it should increase damage by HALF of what it does now, or both Rangers and Forces should have similar gimmicks in order to match them. The whole point of the PA's with their many combos and targets were to offset the fact Hunters DID do far inferior base damage than Forces, and with good reason -- Forces were ment to be the most powerful class in terms of BIG NUMBARZ and crowd control, while hunters were the focused-force of the team. Rangers can play either the crowd control or focus-damage roles, but at least they dont have to get hit. However, with hunters being able to take any weapon and render 95% of a force's Technic Arsenal completely useless, i felt i needed to explain why.



Anddddd thats the way i see it. ;) I ignored the lack of diversity between ranged/melee/technic resistant monsters because i thought it was obvious. Dont believe there were enough technic/range resistant monsters in V1.


/Wall of Research and wasted time

[IrisForscythe]

Well done.

[Sexy_Raine]

Nice comparison, but fighters do not overshadow gunners for certain mission and enemies. IMO, gunners are #1 in AOTI, due to better survivability and SE abuse. I'll stop here, since this topic isn't about gunner vs. fighter.

But I completely agree with the Force comparison and saw it since AOTI came out. There's pretty much no reason to bother playing it anymore. Too bad fighter so boring and always been since PSU V1, so gunner is all I have left. Although I have a Fighmaster, he is low priority, and care don't about maxing PA's but ANA's Jabroga is lv35 though, good enough for any nub party.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm still not sure it's as bad as in this theoretical setup.

I mean, high-% weapons have to be synthed. That takes money, time, and lots and lots of luck. Forces, on the other hand, only need to worry about grinding (if they choose to worry about it at all) and PA levelling. Furthermore, while you're doing that Just Attack, your windup increases, and you're still within melee distance of the enemy, making you even more vulnerable than you already were (and if you're wielding a sword, you're pretty much stock still more than half the time). You can forget about escaping the AoE of a boss's slam attack if you've just started or are in the middle of an attack animation - it's going to hit you no matter what you do, while forces and rangers can just run a short distance to avoid the damage.

Really, I've found going from any melee-primary to a ranged-primary character drastically changes the difficulty of the game. As a melee character, I'm constantly sucking up mates if there's no support techer in the group. Soloing as said character is also not fun. Meanwhile, as a techer or ranger (ESPECIALLY ranger) I only have to drink mates if I make some kind of retarded mistake or get swarmed. Sure, theoretically I can kill things faster with better gear as a melee-er as opposed to a techer, but I sure as hell get knocked around a whole lot more often as one, too.

So, I dnno. That's just my experience. I'm sure someone has some great and awe-inspiring rebuttal in reserve for me.

[mll]

Rangers were always overpowered, they just boosted hunters up to their level and ignored forces.
Having a discussion on balance and not including 1/3 of the classes in the game is kind of pointless surely?

[Zyrusticae]

By the way...

Does anyone actually have a 50% 10/10 Repca?

I mean... seriously?

Couldn't you have used something more realistic? Like, I dnno, a 30% 8/8 Repca or something?

[HienkyakuX]

They need to do a few thing to force:
-Remove Gi tech limit to 6 targets and make it an area damg for anything that gets in that area.
-Make Ra and Gi tech hit more than 1 spot to boss and other mod that wep like axe,spear,grenade launcher and others hit in 2-6 spots at a time....
-Maybe add flinch, knockdown to diga and/or foi.
-Remove the waiting part of megivers at start.

Think that's about it maybe more changes are needed.

[mll]

^ Also another problem with the comparison. Get one PW to 10/10 and you'll never need another weapon basically. Getting one 50% Repca is difficult, getting one to 10/10 is unlikely to happen, ever. Then you have to go out and get 5 more. Then 6 axes, then 6 spears etc. etc.

I don't think fixing techs would solve the problem though. No class in the game needs versatility really, so every partial class is made redundant. No class needs defence or hp (or a support techer for that matter) because you don't need to worry about getting hit by the dumb AI.
The game won't ever be balanced and at this stage does it matter? Every class is overpowered some are just more overpowered than others

[Hiero_Glyph]

Quick note: Acrofighters cannot use whips, so please update your comparison to use either Wartechers or Acrotechers.

[PepperCat]

Certain Fighter weapons barely benefit from grinding at all, (looks at mugunruks) but I pretty much agreed with the entire argument (even though getting a Repca to 10/10 is godly).

Even my FM junk (mostly 38%) on my main can vastly outperform my MF with her 7/7, 8/10, 9/9 P-Wands and 10/10 Pushans x 2.

[sikotic_demon]

The flaw i see in your rant is that I highlay doubt that sega ever planed on large annountsof people having that king of godlike equipment. The general population has maybe mid 20% wepons with maybe 5 to 6 grinds tops and not all of them use gravity break, dus majarra, and anga jabroga. Nor do they all have agito repcas. With my 150 male human protranser my damage per second is still overshadowed buy my brothers 123 cast male gunmaster and also by my lowly lvl 83 beast male wartecher.

Now by no means am i carrying junk on my protranser. his typical pallet is a mugunruk (no less then 20% and only the ice has no grinds yet) with dus majarra. An okanoh or okanoc (again not les than 20% most with 4 or 5 grinds) with anga redda. My favored longswords are the kan yu (lowest is 24% with 2 grinds) with gravity break on them. thats the mele side of my pallet other than the single saber i carry for a reserve wepon.

Now please dont think i am trying to start a war here but as a primary fighter class player i feel we were and in some cases still are slightly underpowered. When I get in a group of gunmasters things are dead before i can get to them. witch is not always a bad thing. However it does make it difficult to play in a group and get some exp then gunners ahinialate from the back and techers just nuke everything in front of them normally with either nos or ra diga. If anything is off balance in this game it is the actual speed that a fighter class can run. we need to be faster to be able to get a few tags in before everything dies.

[Magus_84]

The flaw i see in your rant is that I highlay doubt that sega ever planed on large annountsof people having that king of godlike equipment. The general population has maybe mid 20% wepons with maybe 5 to 6 grinds tops and not all of them use gravity break, dus majarra, and anga jabroga. Nor do they all have agito repcas. With my 150 male human protranser my damage per second is still overshadowed buy my brothers 123 cast male gunmaster and also by my lowly lvl 83 beast male wartecher.

Now by no means am i carrying junk on my protranser. his typical pallet is a mugunruk (no less then 20% and only the ice has no grinds yet) with dus majarra. An okanoh or okanoc (again not les than 20% most with 4 or 5 grinds) with anga redda. My favored longswords are the kan yu (lowest is 24% with 2 grinds) with gravity break on them. thats the mele side of my pallet other than the single saber i carry for a reserve wepon.

Now please dont think i am trying to start a war here but as a primary fighter class player i feel we were and in some cases still are slightly underpowered. When I get in a group of gunmasters things are dead before i can get to them. witch is not always a bad thing. However it does make it difficult to play in a group and get some exp then gunners ahinialate from the back and techers just nuke everything in front of them normally with either nos or ra diga. If anything is off balance in this game it is the actual speed that a fighter class can run. we need to be faster to be able to get a few tags in before everything dies.

You say "not everyone uses Jabroga, Majarra and Grav Break"...yet you're using two out of the three on the character you're using as the example. >___> Not to mention, Majarra's very cheap in terms of PA frags, and levels fast as hell.

At least on PC/PS2, the population's low enough that a good percentage of it has those "uber" weapons that are supposed to be balancing things out. Check the prices on 30%+ A-Rank spears, if you want. That + Majarra at level 30 or higher turns any character that can use them into a blender. For a very low expenditure in time and resources compared to what it'd take to do comparable damage with guns or techs. The further towards dedicated melee (ie: Fortefighter/Fighmaster) and the better the gear, the more absurd things get.

And Fighmaster + Tornado Dance turns the movement speed equation back entirely in the direction of the fighter. Of course, that's only one class...but it's the current flavor of the month, so there are enough of them to use it as a valid point.

[Zyrusticae]

But then isn't the problem just those particular PAs and not so much the classes, at that?

I'm personally really not a fan of Majarra. It just looks so damn goofy, regardless of whether or not its damage is OMGWTFPWNZ0R3D!...

[Magus_84]

I'm honestly rather surprised that Majarra hasn't been nerfed yet. Chikki was. Dus Daggas and Renkai Buyou-Zan were. The latter two, very early on.

Either they've stopped caring or they're too dense to notice. Or more likely, the JP aren't complaining, since 7/12 Advanced & Master classes can use it, and 6/12 can use it well (even Fortegunner. Fortetecher's the only outlier).

A Majarra nerf and a Jabroga "nerf" to make its accuracy mod actually count for something would be a tiny step in the right direction, at least. Though then the FMs would just start spamming Dus Robado more.

[sikotic_demon]

Yes I do use those. I also bought jabroga just to play around with. However I do not constantly use those moves. majarra is an escape/crowd control move and gravity break is too slow to be efective aginst anything without multiple hit boxes. I only listed 3 of the 6 spots on my pallet.. the others are taken by a bow, grenade launcher or laser cannon, and either a shotgun or pistol/saber combo. I am but one of a large number of people that play.

though fighmaster may be the players choice for most it is not for me. I tried it and i just dont find it to be fun. tornado dancing my way around seems to be more of a waste of photon. i would rather use spiral dance cause it is simply more effective against the crowds.

The other thing i forgot to mention is that i do not always carry those 3 mele wepons. i also have started using the fists recently.

as far as i see the chiki nerf was necessary to get players to use other classes besides acrofighter. now they have alowed gunmaster to be the same way. the speed that they fire and damage that can be done is insane. with a level 35 ice bullet (from a 3 grinded rattlesnac) my brother does around 1100 damage against fire creatures my level 40 bow bullet (4 grinded nasyouteri) in the same situation hits for 1080 on average. please explain where the balance is there? i have 200 more atp on the bow and about 400 more between charecters, plus 5 levels on the pa.... yet i hit for less on average? im not complaining i am simply tying to make a point. the gunmaster class alone is overpowered. to be able to hit numbers like that and at the speed that they can fire if there is a class that out paces any others in damage it is that one.

[unicorn]

- Nerf Jabroga, Marjarra, Dus Robado, Tornado Dance, Gravity Break, maybe some others.
- Make JA weaker or apply it to Forces and Gunners
- Buff enemy EVP

[InfiniDragon]

But then isn't the problem just those particular PAs and not so much the classes, at that?

I'm personally really not a fan of Majarra. It just looks so damn goofy, regardless of whether or not its damage is OMGWTFPWNZ0R3D!...

FINALLY. Someone else said it. Majarra is one the the stupidest looking moves like, ever. That was what initially made me shy away from it (once I realized it was broken I just outright never touched it).

As for the argument at hand, yes JA did buff melee in a huge way. But seeing as melee characters were by far the worst class in vanilla PSU, I think JA was completely justified. Furthermore, I don't think gunners or techers should get JA (especially not Gunners, my god). Just buff Technics a bit and they'll be fine.

[Shou]

lol for some reason I always search for the "Techers are fine and don't need anything" posts in these types of threds. =D

[Suzuka Miyamoto]

Technics are the best you can help the team out healing and buffs. I may not have a psycho wand but my 6/10 okarods do like for example.


Diga on lightning eneny 3,629 on my lv40 mst buff
Foie on ice eneny 3,645 on my lv40 mst buff
Ra Technics vs oppsite element like razonde on ground enenies 4targets 2,354 each.

And besides silly fighter have to get close to their enenies ( danger ) High chance of injuries
Guns and techs ( Safe ) Longer life spam better chance of living.

Fighters use gurrila tacties rush the enemy!
Gunners and techers think use area has advantage.
Like gunners would aim a rifle on top of a step of stairs, down on enemies.

[RemiusTA]

The comparison used max potental just to leave out as much error as i could, but it generally applies regardless. Rarely anyone has high * weapons over 6/10, and its far easier to get a psycho wand.

Even using 10%/20% equipment, the gap is still there when you factor JA. Also, incorporate the fact most people dont always even use opposite elements to deal damage, technics lose out even more. (as technics lvl up, sometimes they even lose dmg thanks to the elemental % increase.)

[Zorak000]

how I think it should be:

Forces/Techers = glass cannons: do the most damage, but are easily killed. extremely hard to solo as you get mobbed before you can even think about casting resta.

Hunters/Fighters = Tanks : does less overall than Fs/Ts, but can take a good beating and keep the heat off of the GCs. easy to solo as long as you got healing items, but it may take you a while.

Rangers/Gunners = SEs/general enemy Disruption: Does even less damage than Hs/Fs, and they die much easier than them (but not as bad as Fs/Ts). their strengths lie in the ability to keep their distance and causing SEs much easier or disrupting enemy movement (ala grenades/31 rifles). more skill is required to solo than Hs/Fs, but still not as bad as Fs/Ts.

[Chimeria]

I know it's going out of the way but I wish they would have just kept it so anyone could use technics regardless of what weapon they were using. That way a force could melee with it's weapon and hunters and rangers could use technics with theirs.

Annnyway...I used to think that forces were too powerful. For the simple fact that when they do damage it's just one large number. I was doing a run once and a force used gifoie and did around 3900+ damage. Compared to my attacked that just did around 600+. I didn't take into consideration that my attacks were multiple. 600+ x 3 plus my PA skill does alot more even if I was at a lower level.

And rangers at high levels with decent level bullet techs do ALOT of damage too without having to worry about performing the usual 3 hit combo followed by the small interval afterwards. Add to the fact that if they know how a monster attacks they can keep their distance and dish out some good damage without getting hit. I also noticed that rangers can still just counter too...

So yeah, I agree that forced did get gimped in this game...

[Rayokarna]

Gunmaster is the strongest class in the game.

-Jabroga needs to miss, Majarra needs a % mod changed on the second hit.
-Techs should hit more than one target and do movement damage.

Job done.

[desturel]

And besides silly fighter have to get close to their enenies ( danger ) High chance of injuries

If the enemies lived past the first attack, they might get injured. Since the enemies don't have the HP, it's not much of a problem. Plus Fighters have knockdown, knockup, knockback and blowaway moves. Techers get rushed down pretty easily. Their knockdown moves (noszonde, nosmegid) are slow and their blow away move (regrant) does reflect damage back to them.

The way things are currently, a max level techer will take more punishment during a run than a fighter if both classes are soloing.

Also techers specialize in doing damage to a group of creatures quickly. A group of 6 creatures takes an equal amount of time to kill for a techer as a single creature thanks to their AOE spells, however the majority of spawns in the game are in groups of three or less which is ideal for fighters.

The fighter's AOE attacks, with the exception of Jabroga, Chikki, and Tornado Break, are limited to three targets or less. Jabroga has a startup time. Chikki has been nerfed to about the same level as Zonde (which is weaker than a laser cannon). Tornado Break requires you to get into the middle of a mob and is a bit slower on the startup than a Gi-spell, however it can hit multiple targets on a single creature, making it useful in more situations than the Gi-spell (for example a Drua Gohra can be taken out with Tornado Break, but a Gi-spell would be horrible for that creature).

Then factor in that techers have no mobile techniques. Dus Majarra is quite mobile. You can attack and dodge at the same time. Even something as slow as Anga Dugrega can be used to run as needed. Tornado Dance moves you from one location to another. A techer is always routed to the spot they started casting at until the tech is finished.

[OldCoot]

I think where it is balanced is that gunners and fighters can miss.

Also not many have the equipment talked about. I still do not have a psycho wand and for my striking weapons maybe a few 42%s is the best I have with at max 3 grinds. (Hate to see things break so I stop there.)

You can't always do Just Attack. Sometimes your timing is off or you are hit.

[Hiero_Glyph]

I think where it is balanced is that gunners and fighters can miss.

Also not many have the equipment talked about. I still do not have a psycho wand and for my striking weapons maybe a few 42%s is the best I have with at max 3 grinds. (Hate to see things break so I stop there.)

You can't always do Just Attack. Sometimes your timing is off or you are hit.

Yes, but you would also qualify as a casual player, not an upper level one. For me, having 42+% weapons is mandatory and I also can Just Attack 95+% of the time. The funny part is that I would not consider myself a phenominal player either but my equipment is very good. As for grinding, it all depends on the weapon type as certain weapons gain very little benefit from grinding while others require it.

I guess the heart of the issue is, do we balance for the casual player (who probably has no clue that the game is unbalanced) or do we balance for the upper levels of players (who are doing everything possible to maximize their damage output)? When you think about it, even though they are many more casual players on the servers, most of them wouldn't know enough to be bothered by the changes either way while the upper level players would be greatly effected by even the smallest change.

[Suzuka Miyamoto]

Not to go off topic but is it easy to find a psycho wand board?

[Akaimizu]

Hard to say who the casual players are. I think in general, they gravitate to the strongest immediate classes. Just happens that they are pretty up there, at the end, as well.

If there's one thing for Gunmaster, they don't start off as strong. At least they have a more humble beginning until they level up their PAs.

[darkante]

Not to go off topic but is it easy to find a psycho wand board?

I got an answer for ya...
...
...
..
No

Inspiring yes? XD

[Mysterious-G]

All sort of weapons just should have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY (like 10x times) higher stat requirements.
I am so sick of seeing lvl 30s wielding Agitos and PWs.

[Zarode]

Rangers were always overpowered, they just boosted hunters up to their level and ignored forces.
Having a discussion on balance and not including 1/3 of the classes in the game is kind of pointless surely?

Guntecher, worthless.
Wartecher, worthless.
Masterforce, worthless.

Kinda pointless when 2/3 of the hybrid is pointless, surely?

[Suzuka Miyamoto]

Guntecher, worthless.
Wartecher, worthless.
Masterforce, worthless.

Kinda pointless when 2/3 of the hybrid is pointless, surely?

Masterforce is trash even at lv20 a masterforce tp is weak to a fortetecher tp.

Masterforce bad stats bad hp like protranser.

Masterforce is basily a technic player who doesnt care about buffing or healing the team.

Masterforce buffs lv10
Attack techs lv50

Fortetecher buffs lv40
Attack techs lv40
Bullets (bows and pistol) lv30
Melee lv10

[mvffin]

MasterForce is still the best attack techer, but that doesn't mean much when techs are a terrible source of DPS most of the time. GM and FM can compete with each other, but there are at least 2-3 other classes(along with GM/FM)that are higher in DPS than MF.

[stukasa]

Masterforce is trash even at lv20 a masterforce tp is weak to a fortetecher tp.
Speed boost + level 50 techs easily overcomes the slightly lower TP.

[Suzuka Miyamoto]

Speed boost + level 50 techs easily overcomes the slightly lower TP.

Its still trash i wasted my time lvling wartecher.


Besides dps masterforce evp is bad sta goes to 9.
Cant buff your teamates with buffs has good has a fortetecher.

I play has fortetecher to help out team with lvl 40 buffs and lv40 healing techs.

I cant understand people that play has masterforce:-?. But...........

Fightmaster and Gunmaster are cool.

[Sexy_Raine]

Its still trash i wasted my time lvling wartecher.


Besides dps masterforce evp is bad sta goes to 9.
Cant buff your teamates with buffs has good has a fortetecher.

I play has fortetecher to help out team with lvl 40 buffs and lv40 healing techs.

I cant understand people that play has masterforce:-?. But...........

Fightmaster and Gunmaster are cool.

Welcome to the club, now all the former techers join us on the Gunmaster boat. :D

[hewitt]

Its still trash i wasted my time lvling wartecher.


Besides dps masterforce evp is bad sta goes to 9.
Cant buff your teamates with buffs has good has a fortetecher.

I play has fortetecher to help out team with lvl 40 buffs and lv40 healing techs.

I cant understand people that play has masterforce:-?. But...........

Fightmaster and Gunmaster are cool.

Acrotecher is the best for support teching. Masterforce is
the best for attack teching. Fortetecher is a balance between.

[Mysterious-G]

Acrotecher is the best for support teching. Masterforce is
the best for attack teching. Fortetecher is a balance between.

And Wartecher is the best in... uh... Hm.

[Suzuka Miyamoto]

And Wartecher is the best in... uh... Hm.

Went i play has acrotecher i can use buffs pass lv41 and healing techs pass lv41 giresta lv50 auto heal lv4. I like to call myself the support master when playing has a arcotecher.

[RemiusTA]

I think where it is balanced is that gunners and fighters can miss.

Also not many have the equipment talked about. I still do not have a psycho wand and for my striking weapons maybe a few 42%s is the best I have with at max 3 grinds. (Hate to see things break so I stop there.)

You can't always do Just Attack. Sometimes your timing is off or you are hit.

That absolutely is not a balance.

Missing rarely makes a difference in this kind of case, because techers constantly miss as well. My findings were all on perfect situational conditions, but in the real game, people dont have 50% 10/10 *13 weapons to match every opposite element in the game.

Techers dont have accuracy chances because when you factor in that none of their spells have any lock-on capabilities (save for ra-nos spells), they usually end up missing alot. (Ra spells dont always go where you want them to. Its quite annoying but managable.) If you want to factor in accuracy, you have to factor in human error while casting spells, too.

And Just Attacking isnt any kind of "pro" skill, either. Its quite easy to accomplish. After about an hour or two of using a weapon's JA, its really as second nature as Action Pallete movement.



Masterforce is trash even at lv20 a masterforce tp is weak to a fortetecher tp.

Masterforce bad stats bad hp like protranser.

Masterforce is basily a technic player who doesnt care about buffing or healing the team.

Masterforce buffs lv10
Attack techs lv50

Fortetecher buffs lv40
Attack techs lv40
Bullets (bows and pistol) lv30
Melee lv10 This is really the reason i created this topic.

The only reason people think this way is because of how useless technics become by endgame progress.

But just so you know, if there was no Just Attack in this game, Masterforce would most definately be revered as broken. (Gunmaster too, for that instance.)

Just for reference..


Character : Lv 130 Newman F, Masterforce, 1/10 Psycho wand, no units, Foie lv50
Lv 130 Newman F, Fortetecher, 1/10 Psycho wand, no units, Foie lv40

Damage vs. opp. element enemy:

Fortetecher: 4676
Masterforce: 4625

Vs Neutral element (or not opposite/same) enemy:

Fortetecher: 3141
Masterforce: 2975


**Note masterforce dmg may be off by a few points, i cant find the Tech% for a lv50 technic, so i just used lv40 stats and added 10 levels to it. **
-----

Just for the record people, i wanted to just give people a feeling for how the damage would balance out if Techers could Just Attack (or induce critical attacks in a similar fashion, since thats all JA does.) Ill use my Rafoie vs. Jarboga example again, but ill go ahead and give this FT Lv40 Retier and the Beast guy lv 40 shifta.

Character :
Lv 130 Beast M, Fortefighter, 10/10 Ank Buti 50%, no units, max'd Jabroga, Lv 31+ Shifta
Lv 130 Newman F, Fortetecher, 10/10 Psycho wand, no units, Foie lv40 Lv 31+ Retier


Without Just Attack ---

Lv40 Rafoie, 3863 damage per hit.
Lv 40 Jarboga, 6856 damage per hit. (lol double)

Rafoie total -- 4 targets x 4-5 casts per jarboga duration = 61,800 -77,260
Jarboga Total -- 6 targets x 2 hits = 82,200 -- 84,000 damage.
Keep in mind, my calculations before were a bit off. I calculated the speed of casting from the start to end of the Jarboga animation, but thats a bit inaccurate. The damage for the techer would likely surpass my original calculation, since during a time lapse a techer would still be able to keep throwing off hits during the WARMUP of the SECOND jarboga, which would offset any damage they loss. But i wont factor that in, i dont think ill need it.



With Just Attack ---

Lv40 Rafoie, 5975 damage per hit.
Lv 40 Jarboga, 10284 damage per hit. (0.0)

Rafoie total -- 4 targets x 4-5 casts per jarboga duration = 92,000-115,000 damage

Jarboga Total -- 6 targets x 2 hits = 123,000 -- 126,100 damage.Therefore, if Forces could Just Attack....they'd be a pretty serious cannon to reckon with. Factor in the fact most forces use Har/Quick and that damage multiples by even more.


For more realistic results:

Psycho Wand 1/10, Har/Quick, lv130 Newman Female, FT lv20, Retier lv 31+. (Any FT by lv130 should have maxed Retier already, Offensive or healbot alike. Seriously.)

Foie lv 40 = 5648 damage.
Foie lv 40 (Just attack) = 8473 damage.

Serious Buisness.

[OldCoot]

Yes, but you would also qualify as a casual player, not an upper level one. For me, having 42+% weapons is mandatory and I also can Just Attack 95+% of the time. The funny part is that I would not consider myself a phenominal player either but my equipment is very good. As for grinding, it all depends on the weapon type as certain weapons gain very little benefit from grinding while others require it.

I guess the heart of the issue is, do we balance for the casual player (who probably has no clue that the game is unbalanced) or do we balance for the upper levels of players (who are doing everything possible to maximize their damage output)? When you think about it, even though they are many more casual players on the servers, most of them wouldn't know enough to be bothered by the changes either way while the upper level players would be greatly effected by even the smallest change.

I find the argument that if you have 42%+ stuff you know more of the game very weak. I think that many players and by the far the majority have made the decision that they can sleep just as well at night without having all their equpment at 42%. And many of those also decided it just isn't worth grinding some level a thousand times hoping to see some rare item that will have a greater drop rate in 8 months anyway.

For equipment it is just luck. There is no skill required if you don't have to work on a Friday or a weekend after a big release and sell any boards or drops you received. Or, you were lucky enough to pull out some high percentage and even make that item. Once this happens a few times you then have the meseta to go buy someone elses luck.

Lets go back to the casual player. Lets remove them and what they put in with their GL. Do you think Sega will keep the servers going for a few? Sega desires to pay the bills and earn a profit like any business would. Do you add some feature that will please 5 folks or 2500 folks? Fighters who are up front usually take the brunt of the damage and get knocked down so why not then allow those same fighters to put out the greatest DPS? I don't have the numbers but I suspect that most players use a fighter often or even as their main.

In the end Sega is going to design and aim this game to get as many players as possible.

[Cracka_J]

lol for some reason I always search for the "Techers are fine and don't need anything" posts in these types of threds. =D

that would have been me :)
good post though remius, nice read.

bit bored so here's an expanded response...
[spoiler-box]the only reason I never really cared about the low stats of mf is that PSU is a team based game. I mean, if it were any other game where I was in direct competition with the other classes/races, I'd sure care a lot more. but in PSU stats make you do 2 things:

1 - Kill faster
2 - Die less

that's why the PS series will always be just casual and fun for me...
killing the fastest really doesn't matter unless your TA'ing. dying less can be remedied somewhat with a good armor, or for those who really don't care just find 1 in demand rare and your set on scapes for your psu career.

I know that probably sounds like a nub post, but hey it's the truth. If you don't care about killing fast or how much you die, you can pretty much enjoy any class in the game without getting bummed out. And yeah, all this is just my opinion, but I really think people put too much value on paper stats in a game with no direct player to player competition.[/spoiler-box]

[RemiusTA]

It just feels like every game i play EVER, the class i enjoy the most happens to just be unfairly nerfed to hell, and nobody, not even the devs seem to know/care/understand why.

Although i do have fun doing this lol >_>

[desturel]

It just feels like every game i play EVER, the class i enjoy the most happens to just be unfairly nerfed to hell

This is where I disagree with you. Techers aren't "nerfed" in my opinion. The other classes are just overpowered. I can run every mission in this game as a techer without a problem (well I run into problems in the last block of Bladed Legacy, but I'm pretty sure that isn't a techer only problem). A nerfed class would not be able to do that. The problem is that any other pure class could do it faster.

It's like a techer is working within the limits of the game, but a fighter and gunner can exceed those limits.

The limiting factor on fighters was that they had to do battle from up close. For the most part a good fighter can kill most of the enemies on the screen before the up close battle begins. Then when it does start they have enough control and evasion moves that there isn't much that a simple AI can do to counter.

The limiting factor on gunners is they don't have a single powerful attack. That's balanced out by a large number of smaller attacks that combine into a single powerful attack (shotgun) and creature and mob control (laser cannon/grenade/rifle knockdown).

The limiting factor on techers is being completely immobile while doing damage and not having a lockon of any sort to help with aiming. Well, the lockon limitation is a bit nullified by nos spells, however those have the added drawback of making you immobile for an even longer period of time as a drawback.

[Hiero_Glyph]

I find the argument that if you have 42%+ stuff you know more of the game very weak. I think that many players and by the far the majority have made the decision that they can sleep just as well at night without having all their equpment at 42%. And many of those also decided it just isn't worth grinding some level a thousand times hoping to see some rare item that will have a greater drop rate in 8 months anyway.

For equipment it is just luck. There is no skill required if you don't have to work on a Friday or a weekend after a big release and sell any boards or drops you received. Or, you were lucky enough to pull out some high percentage and even make that item. Once this happens a few times you then have the meseta to go buy someone elses luck.

Lets go back to the casual player. Lets remove them and what they put in with their GL. Do you think Sega will keep the servers going for a few? Sega desires to pay the bills and earn a profit like any business would. Do you add some feature that will please 5 folks or 2500 folks? Fighters who are up front usually take the brunt of the damage and get knocked down so why not then allow those same fighters to put out the greatest DPS? I don't have the numbers but I suspect that most players use a fighter often or even as their main.

In the end Sega is going to design and aim this game to get as many players as possible.

42% equipment has nothing to do with knowledge, but most players that know enough to have a full elemental selection of every useable weapon type are a step ahead of the majority of the players. I cannot tell you the number of times I see players using neutral weapons and armor (note that this includes using off-element weapons as well) so again, the majority of players have no clue what they are doing.

Regarding luck, yes the game does depend upon luck much too often, but a good/smart player can compensate for this and make smart decisions about playing the market or deciding which missions to run. Do you really think that zon-photons would have sold for 9k each if the majority of players knew how frequently zon-spheres would be dropping during mission carnival?

Finally, about the majority of the player base, well the Japanese are the majority so anything that we say will have little to no effect on what decisions they make. And for the record, SEGA has a history of making poor decisions regarding balance (they're no Blizzard, that's for sure).

[panzer_unit]

The limiting factor on fighters was that they had to do battle from up close.
...
The limiting factor on gunners is they don't have a single powerful attack.
...
The limiting factor on techers is being completely immobile while doing damage and not having a lockon of any sort to help with aiming. Well, the lockon limitation is a bit nullified by nos spells, however those have the added drawback of making you immobile for an even longer period of time as a drawback.

I agree about fighters... but specifically their damage output is in danger of totally falling apart when you're in a situation where enemies are hitting with a lot of stagger, knockdown, knockback, etc. Not that it actually happens but that's the risk in theory. In comparison a gunner or techer can get tossed like salad, as long as they have enough time in between for one shot from a shotgun or laser, or enough time to get a gi-tech started, they're still doing their maximum potential damage for the amount of time they're free to act.

Gunners have fantastic mob control and can point-blank really well but their damage gets cut pretty hard by the sheer number of bullet-resistant creatures out there.

Techers have the best variety of AOE attacks, but serious problems for dealing damage to just one or two targets, even more so against multi-target creatures where fighters and gunners are dealing at least 2x their single target base ... against anything less than the maximum number of targets a ra-type technic can hit, techs are under-performing on their potential which sucks.

What would be great is if ra-technics always hit five times, at random among all targets in range. That way if there's just one poor sucker standing there, you're waving your wand to the tune of 8000-10000 damage. That could put them on par with some fighter PA's.

In Phantasy Star Portable the techer problem's solved by giving them Knuckles and Double Sabers, which set them up with a couple of excellent large-monster attacks despite having only level 10 for melee skills.

[RemiusTA]

This is where I disagree with you. Techers aren't "nerfed" in my opinion. The other classes are just overpowered. I can run every mission in this game as a techer without a problem (well I run into problems in the last block of Bladed Legacy, but I'm pretty sure that isn't a techer only problem). A nerfed class would not be able to do that. The problem is that any other pure class could do it faster.


This was what this topic was stressing. Basically, the game was technically balanced with design flaws before AotI. Now, its just unbalanced and flawed in design, and they dont seem to know how to fix it. I mean seriously, a photon art has the potental to hit at least 15 times, and you give people the ability to basically give their characters 100% Critical Rates? Retarded. So yeah, they aren't nerfed, but 90% of their abilities have been rendered useless.


Balancing videogames is like balancing Chemistry, or doing an Algebra problem. You cant multiply one side of the equation by an insane number, do absolutely nothing to the other side, and expect your answer to come out correct. Its going to be severely fucked up. Thats what PSU did. Now all the sudden forces are accepted as the "SUPPORT CLASS" when only 11 of their 34 technics are support/healing technics. Makes no sense forces have to work alot harder to even be efficient in combat, only to be outmatched in every way. Forces in PSU were actually designed with most situations in mind. They have single hitting spells that do pretty exceptional damage + status effects for single enemies, the Ra- ranged AoE ones that do less damage but are easier to hit with, then they have close-ranged technics (Gi/Dam) for close combat situations, and then a few random others.

Basically, if you put forces and rangers in the same room, there isnt much overshadowing going on. Everyone equally struggles with everything i believe, but are equally effective in their own respects. Rangers and hunters, hunters will definately do the most damage, but rangers now are lucky since they can do what they do, except now with cannon fodder. In other words, they actually can become MORE effective. Hunters and Forces, however, the force is now a heal/buff bot, because any random 1000 / 2000 damage they contribute will be completely useless to the MULTIPLE 3000s/6000s/9000's flying off enemies. In fact, using single-hitting spells to maximize damage becomes useless to forces more than the team, since by the time they tag every monster with it, theres a good chance the room has been wiped out.

So, if a hunter is in the room with a force and is using either a sword, axe, slicer, spear, or whip, all of your technics are useless in comparison. Except resta, of course.




What would be great is if ra-technics always hit five times, at random among all targets in range. That way if there's just one poor sucker standing there, you're waving your wand to the tune of 8000-10000 damage. That could put them on par with some fighter PA's.Thats actually a neat idea, but it kind of makes the rest of their spells useless in comparison. I liked the idea of them giving every technic its own form for its own purpose. Its kind of what made them a fun class to play.

All they really need to do is implement a Charge feature or something. When casting a spell, simply hold down the button. the character holds the animation for about half a second, and after that the force just auto-releases with Critical Damage. If you release before the charge is complete, the technic just does normal damage.

I also think by a certian level, techincs should definately start knocking down / blowing away. There is no reason i can knock you across the room with a saber, but when i nuke your ass you just keep hopping towards me.

[OldCoot]

That absolutely is not a balance.

Missing rarely makes a difference in this kind of case, because techers constantly miss as well. My findings were all on perfect situational conditions, but in the real game, people dont have 50% 10/10 *13 weapons to match every opposite element in the game.

Techers dont have accuracy chances because when you factor in that none of their spells have any lock-on capabilities (save for ra-nos spells), they usually end up missing alot. (Ra spells dont always go where you want them to. Its quite annoying but managable.) If you want to factor in accuracy, you have to factor in human error while casting spells, too.

And Just Attacking isnt any kind of "pro" skill, either. Its quite easy to accomplish. After about an hour or two of using a weapon's JA, its really as second nature as Action Pallete movement.
...

Techers can miss just like any class. Aim too far, too near or off to the side and you won't see any damage. That goes equally well for gunners and fighters. The missing comes in to play when that foie hits the target doing damge while I could hit the target and see a zero with a bullet or a striking weapon.

A recent example:

My friend playing a Female Cast 150 Gunmaster 20 with a leveled rifle bullet saw 0,0,0 with level 50 buffs on a Scared Planet S2 run against a Bal Sora. A techer won't see three zeros if three digas were used or 3 foies. This is maybe 3600 pts of damage that never happened even though the bullet was on target.

I for one won't be getting just attack off every time also. Maybe some can do it on a regular basis but after you get tired, the game pad gets worn out or whatever that frequency will go way down.

By the way I think your spelling (Jarboga) of Jabroga should be the correct one since that is how I have been calling it until a friend corrected me on that.

Taking that PA you won't be hitting 6 targets unless you are facing a boss or have the perfect mob in front of you. Since things move outside its area of effect often and that the PA tends to target the one guy behind you or the one guy on the edge of the mob you will most likely see 4 such hits. Also a fighter is up front they can be interupted while winding up and this forces them to back off or start the PA sooner to get it off. I could throw in that since a fighter is up front they might get knocked back more often where a techer staying around medium range might not see that much.

These factors will greatly affect over all damage. Hard to hit and do damage while getting up or oving around so you are not facing it. A techer just has to stand out of reach and pour on the damage.


42% equipment has nothing to do with knowledge, but most players that know enough to have a full elemental selection of every useable weapon type are a step ahead of the majority of the players. I cannot tell you the number of times I see players using neutral weapons and armor (note that this includes using off-element weapons as well) so again, the majority of players have no clue what they are doing.

Regarding luck, yes the game does depend upon luck much too often, but a good/smart player can compensate for this and make smart decisions about playing the market or deciding which missions to run. Do you really think that zon-photons would have sold for 9k each if the majority of players knew how frequently zon-spheres would be dropping during mission carnival?

Finally, about the majority of the player base, well the Japanese are the majority so anything that we say will have little to no effect on what decisions they make. And for the record, SEGA has a history of making poor decisions regarding balance (they're no Blizzard, that's for sure).

I agree about the neutral. Nice to have the opposite weapon for the job. However I won't hold it against a player if they would rather not spend extra meseta so they only need one neutral. Yes they won't max out their damage but they saved a lot of meseta doing it that way.

Doesn't the Japanese PC/PS2 version has a smaller player base compared to the 360?

[Hiero_Glyph]

I agree about the neutral. Nice to have the opposite weapon for the job. However I won't hold it against a player if they would rather not spend extra meseta so they only need one neutral. Yes they won't max out their damage but they saved a lot of meseta doing it that way.

Doesn't the Japanese PC/PS2 version has a smaller player base compared to the 360?

FYI, six low % weapons of each element are often less expensive than a single neutral weapon. Also note that the 10% correct element weapons still deal more damage than the neutral one.

Japan is so far ahead of us in terms of content that we still have no say in anything as all of our updates are already finished and we are simply waiting for them to be delivered. Regardless of if we have more players currently, there is nothing we can do to make SEGA fix the game for us as all of the changes will take 6-12 months just for us to get the update. If you compared the player populations at the time of an event, I'm sure that the Japanese servers had a larger player base though.

[panzer_unit]

Basically, if you put forces and rangers in the same room, there isnt much overshadowing going on.
Rangers and hunters, hunters will definately do the most damage, but rangers now are lucky since they can do what they do, except now with cannon fodder.
Hunters and Forces, however, the force is now a heal/buff bot, because any random 1000 / 2000 damage they contribute will be completely useless to the MULTIPLE 3000s/6000s/9000's flying off enemies. In fact, using single-hitting spells to maximize damage becomes useless to forces more than the team, since by the time they tag every monster with it, theres a good chance the room has been wiped out.
...
Thats actually a neat idea, but it kind of makes the rest of their spells useless in comparison. I liked the idea of them giving every technic its own form for its own purpose. Its kind of what made them a fun class to play.

All they really need to do is implement a Charge feature or something. When casting a spell, simply hold down the button. the character holds the animation for about half a second, and after that the force just auto-releases with Critical Damage. If you release before the charge is complete, the technic just does normal damage.

I also think by a certian level, techincs should definately start knocking down / blowing away. There is no reason i can knock you across the room with a saber, but when i nuke your ass you just keep hopping towards me.

I don't get your logic.

Techers + Gunners are fine because both classes have roughly the same game mechanics.
Gunners + Fighters are fine because gunners' crowd control role is still useful even with fighters doing the majority of the damage.
How are Techers + Fighters some magically horrible combination? Get a quick unit, an RCSM, put barta and rabarta on a wand... it's not much different from being a gunner, you can rack up a few thousand damage and keep monsters tripped up so they don't interrupt the melee guys' attacks. Also a techer should never shoot their single target spells unless there's literally just one thing to hit. Any proper-element multi-target technique will do more damage if there are even 2 monsters to hit, and obviously they don't screw you for xp.

I don't remember how it is in the online game any more but in portable range mags (tenora makes a very effective shotgun type) are absolutely devastating weapons for a force and make for a huge damage add while spamming techs with a wand. Supposing melee was balanced with tech for damage to start with, I'd figure that melee + JA is about as good as tech + RCSM. Just in terms of real numbers, suppose you have a lv50 tech, 200% TP with 3 targets and (I think) 54% element... an RCSM is 100% TP damage with 3 hits per attack and variable element like a melee weapon (e.g. lots) that's a 50% damage add just like JA.

I figured ra-techs might as well be totally broken to keep up with other jobs' damage output, after all they're the ones that got boosts to that effect so far by being given additional targets at lv31 and lv41... sort of puts the gi-series out of a job, considering it's 5 targets vs 6 and higher damage modifiers. At least ra- take footwork to try and snipe a single target with as opposed to just standing near enough to an enemy.

[Calsetes]

Alright, I semi-perused through some of the responses, and I have to say this:

First, I agree with your post, Cracka. That's how I've always felt about the game, and it's a bigger emphasis in this one than back in PSO, since no non-force class can cast spells anymore. Second, I haven't been watching too closely with what was added when and killed whatever in the game's balance, but I feel that adding just attack did power the melee classes a bit more than they should have, and the other thing that didn't help out too much was Majarra and Jabroga - it seems like everyone who considers themselves a fighter believes they HAVE to use these two skills if they can, just because of "how amazingly awesome" they are.

But that's just my thoughts on the whole thing. I know there's more to it than that though, because even when Majarra was out and used a lot (back when 1-Up Cup was out, was when I knew about it since I took a 3 month break or so before that) the Force classes still had a lot of oomph to them.

[autumn]

Welcome to the club, now all the former techers join us on the Gunmaster boat. :D

I went to FM after finding out techers... well they aren't so hot T_T But then I already had an alt set up as a GM ^_-

[RemiusTA]

I don't get your logic.

Techers + Gunners are fine because both classes have roughly the same game mechanics.
Gunners + Fighters are fine because gunners' crowd control role is still useful even with fighters doing the majority of the damage.
How are Techers + Fighters some magically horrible combination? Get a quick unit, an RCSM, put barta and rabarta on a wand... it's not much different from being a gunner, you can rack up a few thousand damage and keep monsters tripped up so they don't interrupt the melee guys' attacks. Also a techer should never shoot their single target spells unless there's literally just one thing to hit. Any proper-element multi-target technique will do more damage if there are even 2 monsters to hit, and obviously they don't screw you for xp.

I don't remember how it is in the online game any more but in portable range mags (tenora makes a very effective shotgun type) are absolutely devastating weapons for a force and make for a huge damage add while spamming techs with a wand. Supposing melee was balanced with tech for damage to start with, I'd figure that melee + JA is about as good as tech + RCSM. Just in terms of real numbers, suppose you have a lv50 tech, 200% TP with 3 targets and (I think) 54% element... an RCSM is 100% TP damage with 3 hits per attack and variable element like a melee weapon (e.g. lots) that's a 50% damage add just like JA.

I figured ra-techs might as well be totally broken to keep up with other jobs' damage output, after all they're the ones that got boosts to that effect so far by being given additional targets at lv31 and lv41... sort of puts the gi-series out of a job, considering it's 5 targets vs 6 and higher damage modifiers. At least ra- take footwork to try and snipe a single target with as opposed to just standing near enough to an enemy.

Tech + Madoog can not compensate for 50% damage. Thats like saying Just Attack itself would have the same effect if all it did was increase speed by about 20%. 100% critical rate and -20% (approx) casting speed do NOT balance out. Thats like saying going from 10,000 to 15,000 damage per combo is the same as being able to do 3000 damage, only instead of 1 second per cast, you can do it in 0.8 seconds.

50% damage is a big effing difference. if you normally do 1000 damage, with 50% you'll do 500 more. However If you normally do 4000 damage, you'll do 2000 more. Madoog casting speed is great, but it isnt nearly good enough to compensate for 50% damage to every enemy you do.



Here's a good example.

Lets say a techer originally does 3000 damage with his ra- spell, and can cast once per second. On a group of 6, he averages 18,000 damage per second. Hes doing 21,000 damage per 1.3 seconds (approx) with a rod. However, if Technic users could Just Attack but only use one technic per second, they'd do about 4500 damage per hit, and 27,000 damage per second. Thats more damage than even the Rod could output, AND faster as well. If they used a Rod, they'd do 5400 per hit and. 32,000 damage per 1.4 seconds. Now...If madoogs made techers all the sudden cast REALLY fast (like 400%), so they were able to cast a Ra- spell twice per second for 3000 damage each (while hitting 6x2), they'd do about 36,000 damage per second.

So.



Madoog = 18,000 per 1.0/s
Rod = 21,000 per 1.3/s
Madoog (JA) = 27,000 per 1.0/s
Rod (JA) = 32,000 per 1.3/s

Madoog (400%)= 36,000 per 1.0/s

But you might as well scratch that last one off. You'd need WAY more than 2 stacked Har/quick's, masterforce speed and a madoog to get a spell off in .5 seconds.

Even masterforces with Har/quick cant even throw off 1 foie per second with a rod. (ALMOST, but they're a few tenth's places off.) With a madoog and har/quick, masterforces cast ra spells like every 0.8 - 1.0 seconds or so. Thats not nearly quick enough to compensate for 50% damage output. So, its safe to say unless they basically broke masterforce speed, theres no way extra speed could compensate for 100% critical rate.

[Hiero_Glyph]

I don't see why they can't just add a Just Attack for attack technics by having the player hold the cast button for a moment and then releasing it once it is charged. If you let go too early or hold it too long it fizzles and you lose the Just Attack. This would add a strategy for technics as decreasing your casting speed could increase your damage output by 50%.

[Magus_84]

Just one thing to point out about RCSMs, Panzer...

Neither FT nor MF can use them. Only GT/WT/AT can, and the latter two are limited to only A-ranks, meaning they miss out on the ones with piercing lasers (except for the Winter Carnival Lightning-element Sonichi).

And none of the currently available RCSMs do the Tenora-esque 5 shot spread that the PSP version does. You're limited to 3 shots at once, only on Kubara R-mags and the MAG Sonichi (which is low % and only fire). The three shot ones also fire much more slowly.

They really aren't much of a "balance", except maybe on GT, who can do the S-Rank Laser + piercing tech thing to maybe equal a decently-leveled Laser Cannon, if you're a Newman or Human. Which still isn't all that good.

[MSAksion]

the BIGGEST problem with TECHNICS is the fact they can not Multi-target the same boss or large enemy.

No matter if Gi-barta can hit 6 small badira. on the same De Ragon it hits ONCE thereby making TECHS completely utterly useless on a Boss.

Why do people get mad when they see me use NosDiga or Diga on DeRagon. Why would i do 400 with Barta when i can do 1800x3 with nosdiga.

But then again why dont i be a fighter and just dus majarra the hell out of deragon anyway >>

I agree completely - that fighters are waaaay too strong and that TECHS are too WEak. If i can summon a ball of Death i should do more damage than a man with a sword.

[desturel]

A recent example:

My friend playing a Female Cast 150 Gunmaster 20 with a leveled rifle bullet saw 0,0,0 with level 50 buffs on a Scared Planet S2 run against a Bal Sora. A techer won't see three zeros if three digas were used or 3 foies. This is maybe 3600 pts of damage that never happened even though the bullet was on target.

Your example would be wonderful if Diga and the rifle bullet had the same cast/fire rate. They don't. You can shoot 3 rifle bullets in the amount of time it takes to cast one Diga. Also the Diga does not have lock-on. A Bal Soza, can easily move out of the way of a diga (and they have on many occasions) unless you are on top of the Soza.

To add to this, Diga has no knock down. The rifle does. The Rifle is just to be used as a setup on a Bal Soza anyway. Knock em down with the rifle and finish them off with a shotgun.

Add on top of that, Bal Soza take 1/2 damage from techs, but full damage from rifles and your example is pretty much garbage. Please think of another one.

[PepperCat]

the BIGGEST problem with TECHNICS is the fact they can not Multi-target the same boss or large enemy.

No matter if Gi-barta can hit 6 small badira. on the same De Ragon it hits ONCE thereby making TECHS completely utterly useless on a Boss.

Why do people get mad when they see me use NosDiga or Diga on DeRagon. Why would i do 400 with Barta when i can do 1800x3 with nosdiga.

But then again why dont i be a fighter and just dus majarra the hell out of deragon anyway >>

I agree completely - that fighters are waaaay too strong and that TECHS are too WEak. If i can summon a ball of Death i should do more damage than a man with a sword.

Pretty much agreed to everything here. I love playing MasterForce because its fun, but I always feel gimped at the bosses... :x

[Zyrusticae]

I still don't get it. I get tossed around as a fighter all the time, and I only get to finish whole PAs occasionally, especially against big enemies with more than one hitbox (supposedly our greatest strength).

Does this change with higher levels/better equipment, or is it that the overpoweredness lies solely within certain PAs?

[AlphaDragoon]

But then again why dont i be a fighter and just dus majarra the hell out of deragon anyway >>

...Because you're not a tool like 90% of people who spam Majarra?

But I don't think Techers should be stronger than Fighters, by virtue of the fact that fighter classes have to go in there to attack. I do think some moves *cough*Majarra and Jabroga*cough* need to be nerfed, and that some techs should be buffed/have knockdown or stagger, but back in vanilla PSU when Techers flat out dominated, it made no sense.

[HyperShot-X-]

IMO, character unbalancing is either a pretty minor flaw or not an issue at all in PSU.

Gunner is ideal for novice players due to its simple point & shoot game play.
Fighter is more geared toward intermediate players since it takes some effort to be a skilled fighter.
Techer is designed for advanced and hardcore players, it provides challenge & depth to fully master and effectively use different spells.

Fighter + Techer could be very powerful combo in many cases like in boss fight for ex. techer can even do some damage to the target in air with Nos spells.

For fighters, they have nerfed down majarra, jabroga, chikki, etc. in the past AFAIK, what have they nerfed for techers stat-wise? giving Ra-techs 4 target hits at lv31? & what else?

I do agree on 'Charge casting' idea that could give more depth to techer's game play mechanics but still, DPS doesn't apply in this case since it takes more time in order to do more damage, similar to how JA improved game play for fighters and did more good than harm. All the nerfings for skill PAs that came in later make JA more than completely justifiable.

Giving Gi-techs blow away effect can be bad idea if it pushes away enemies out of range every hit. In fact, giving any knock down, launch, or blow away effects on top of SE effects for 'elemental' technic attacks just like the 'physical' skill PA effects would doesn't make much sense to me at all, for ex. can you imagine a bunch of frozen Badiras knocked around all over the room?

[panzer_unit]

Tech + Madoog can not compensate for 50% damage. Thats like saying Just Attack itself would have the same effect if all it did was increase speed by about 20%. 100% critical rate and -20% (approx) casting speed do NOT balance out. Thats like saying going from 10,000 to 15,000 damage per combo is the same as being able to do 3000 damage, only instead of 1 second per cast, you can do it in 0.8 seconds.

I said RCSM's, not TCSM's.

You're making things look worse than they are by saying it's a 100% critical rate vs 20% speed increase.

The 20% speed increase is a 20% damage output boost, the 100% critical rate is NOT a 100% damage boost. In fact it's not even a full 50%, depending on how time-consuming the attack is to set up your first JA in each combo and how long the timing delay is on individual combo moves.

From the very start with AOI I thought it would only be right if Gunners and Techers got criticals for Just Counter on their attacks, it would do a lot to address techer damage output issues and add more risk/reward strategy to their game.

[Calsetes]

I still don't get it. I get tossed around as a fighter all the time, and I only get to finish whole PAs occasionally, especially against big enemies with more than one hitbox (supposedly our greatest strength).

Does this change with higher levels/better equipment, or is it that the overpoweredness lies solely within certain PAs?

In my opinion, it's certain PAs, especially when used with Fighmaster. As someone else a post or three down from you pointed out, a LOT of fighters who "are just so uber1337z0rZ" do nothing but spam Majarra and Jabroga (a spear and an axe ultimate PA) nonstop because of the damage output, or it hits multiple hitboxes, or something (I never used them, I'm a sword and saber guy myself). Also, don't worry - you'll be getting strong enough to not get interrupted too much when doing your PAs a little later down the line level-wise. My recommendation (no matter what PA or weapon you use) is to hit the guy with a normal attack first, then chain it into a PA.

But anyway, I digress. There are a few non-toolbag PAs that do pretty amazing damage if you use them right - I know Assault Crush's third part can really lay the hurt down on a long multi-box guy, and Cross Hurricane for the taller multi-box guys. And I do agree with the people who say that techs need to hit more than one box on an enemy - if it works for shotguns, certain handgun bullets, and PAs, then it should definitely work on large AoE techs.

[panzer_unit]

In my opinion, it's certain PAs, especially when used with Fighmaster. As someone else a post or three down from you pointed out, a LOT of fighters who "are just so uber1337z0rZ" do nothing but spam Majarra and Jabroga (a spear and an axe ultimate PA) nonstop because of the damage output

I had problems with noobcake fighters like that online.

If you can one-shot a group of enemies with Anga Jabroga, why are you using it in a team where three other guys are also attacking the same group of enemies with lasers and gi-techs? Two swings from Tornado Break are faster and do enough damage that you bring down the mob.

If you're overkilling two monsters at a time with Dus Majarra, why not switch to Dus Robado and spread your damage around to kill three enemies at once?

Fighters see lots of big numbers from some spectacular move, figure it's "mission accomplished" for game strategy, and never change how they attack for the rest of their thousands of hours in PSU. It's no different from gunners who still don't use lasers, or forces who can't figure out that blasting 4 monsters with a ra-tech is doing more damage than diga.

[desturel]

Here we go again. I'll keep it short since I know you don't like reading my long responses.


Fighter + Techer could be very powerful combo in many cases like in boss fight for ex. techer can even do some damage to the target in air with Nos spells.

Nos-spells are a horrible source of airborne damage. On a Fortetecher you get more damage out of a longbow or cards than you would out of noszonde or nosmegid. If you want to kill stuff in the air, play a gunner.



For fighters, they have nerfed down majarra, jabroga, chikki, etc. in the past AFAIK, what have they nerfed for techers stat-wise? giving Ra-techs 4 target hits at lv31? & what else?

WTF? Majarra and Jabroga have never been nerfed. The only reason Chikki was nerfed was because it made the game unplayable for classes that couldn't use Chikki in a group where there was a Chikki user. Laser Cannons and Zonde/Megid/Barta never hit through walls for 4000+ points of damage.

As far as techer nerfs:

1) No multi-target ability. Multi creature, but no multi-target.
2) Piss poor HP (masterforce)
3) No versatility.
4) Inefficient knockdown, blowaway (Regrant and nos spells don't hold a candle to level 31 bullets or even basic non-PAfrag moves like Rising Strike/Crush)
5) Horrible move recovery time.

Now I can go into more detail, but I promised to keep it short this time.

[panzer_unit]

haha on the Portable board someone just pointed out that a tenora range-mag does as much damage for newman MasterForce as a Cast gunmaster with a level 30 shotgun skill. The newman MF is also casting techniques of course.

I hate it when game balance changes are in the vein of "hey, I've got a great idea now let's go WAY TOO FAR with it"

[Calsetes]

Panzer:

Yeah, big numbers are nice once in a while, like if a big non-moving boss is there, and you have a somewhat short window of time to get in a hit or two (like Mother Brain), then something like Gravity Break or Jabroga would come in handy then. Most other times, unless I'm specifically trying to level up a "heavy" PA I'm sticking with quick "low damage but high hit" PAs. I tend to see people liking those more, since then everyone has a shot at the guy for XP as opposed to me - just like when I use my cast, I try to save my SUV for either when I'm about to die, or when there's a few big guys on the field (a boss, those light-element guys that reflect your elements, that kind of thing). I find it kinda rude to nuke a bunch of weak enemies and suck up all the XP when I'm in a group.

(She also uses lasers, and has since day 1 with the exception of her brief stint as a wartecher, which as a cast, didn't go over real well.....)

Let's see... keep it on topic here..... uh...... "Character imbalance happened when casts can cast spells! Insert internet joke 15! ABBREVIATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!"

[HyperShot-X-]

Nos-spells are a horrible source of airborne damage. On a Fortetecher you get more damage out of a longbow or cards than you would out of noszonde or nosmegid. If you want to kill stuff in the air, play a gunner.

when I say 'techer' it meant to include MF as well and MF can't use ranged weps as you'd know already. Nos techs automatically homes in to the closest target with 100% accuracy within range while ranged weps must be aimed 1st and then still have chance to miss the target like a longbow for ex. My original point was that techers can constantly deal damage for both ground target & moving target in air while fighters can't just fly up in the air to do damage whenever boss gets airborne.



WTF? Majarra and Jabroga have never been nerfed. The only reason Chikki was nerfed was because it made the game unplayable for classes that couldn't use Chikki in a group where there was a Chikki user. Laser Cannons and Zonde/Megid/Barta never hit through walls for 4000+ points of damage.

maybe they did boost all other PAs except Majarra & Jabroga it was a while back, anyways the end result was pretty much the same leveling out PA damage output.



As far as techer nerfs:

1) No multi-target ability. Multi creature, but no multi-target.
2) Piss poor HP (masterforce)
3) No versatility.
4) Inefficient knockdown, blowaway (Regrant and nos spells don't hold a candle to level 31 bullets or even basic non-PAfrag moves like Rising Strike/Crush)
5) Horrible move recovery time.

1) - muti-target ability should remain exclusive to melee PAs to compensate for taking risk to be up close to enemies.
2) - it's trade off for lv41+ attack spells & faster casting, adds more depth & challenge for MF.
3) - 100% hit accuracy makes up for techs, if it hits then it can't miss.
4) - Regrant owns Magashi, you better have 10 scapes if you try the same with saber PAs. Nos spells do have knockdown effect on top of muti-hit creatures and auto-aim home in ability to closest target. It can even hit enemies behind you or hiding around the corridor, bullets can't do that. These techs are highly situational meaning you gotta know when to use certain techs to take full advantage of them, unlike bullets or skills.
5) - if you're referring to general casting speed for all technics, MF & Har/ units were designed for this. If you mean for certain spells like Nos techs, the duration of recovery time is related to the distance the Nos ball travels and you have full control of it by holding down attack button. The minimum recovery time is necessary to prevent the abusing of repeated casting to hit targets in close proximity.
Let's just say they let techers cast 2nd Nos ball before 1st ball even hits the closest target, while the 2nd ball is travelling the 1st ball homes in and kills the target, then do you think the 2nd ball should automatically search for the next closest target to home in and change its course on the fly all by itself? It's the same kind of problem when using Cards most of time. I don't think that's such a simple coding to work out as it sounds. Last time I've seen something like that was in 2D side scroll shooter in 16-bit era.

[RemiusTA]

I said RCSM's, not TCSM's.

You're making things look worse than they are by saying it's a 100% critical rate vs 20% speed increase.

The 20% speed increase is a 20% damage output boost, the 100% critical rate is NOT a 100% damage boost. In fact it's not even a full 50%, depending on how time-consuming the attack is to set up your first JA in each combo and how long the timing delay is on individual combo moves.


Please. The delay barely factors in. If the damage wasn't as high as it was, perhaps the time would make a difference...but it doesn't. Perhaps for regular attacks (swords, ect) it does, but Just Attack for any Photon Art is almost definitely worth your while. And no, 100% critical rate is NOT 100% damage boost..its a 50% damage boost. Sure, if you want to be critical and factor in the decimal places of seconds it takes to JA the PA, its about a 48% damage increase. Just Attack was to liven up Hunters and prevent them from button mashing, except they couldn't do what PSO did (misspress = no next combo) because it would piss everyone off...so they added extra damage. Nothing wrong with that, they just added too much. In PSO,

Heavy Attack damage wasn't so powerful it rendered normal attacks useless. It even had a lower accuracy rate. On PSU, no matter what the situation is, you're definately inclined to Just Attack...even if you're getting fucked around by Stateria or something, because the payoff is just more than worth it. there isnt even an accuracy decrease when Just Attacking, its just "LOL +4000 DAMAGE".

--------

BIG NUMBARZ is what everyone goes for, but as boring or selfish as it is, thats the most efficient method of fighting. You cant get mad at hunters for not "holding back" because majjara and jarbroga does too much damage. Thats like saying "STOP BEING UBER, WE'RE TRYING TO BE USEFUL HERE" or something. Hunters shouldn't have to not use their most powerful PA's just because people are angry they have no edge to anything in combat.

thats my point. Either hunters need to be nerfed (highly unlikely), or both gunners and forces need compensation...mainly because they never got any. Mostly forces. Ranger gets enough payoffs for their abilities, many of which is rarely ever having to get hit if someone else is in the room with them. (sometimes even otherwise.)

[Calsetes]

Heavy Attack damage wasn't so powerful it rendered normal attacks useless. It even had a lower accuracy rate. On PSU, no matter what the situation is, you're definately inclined to Just Attack...even if you're getting fucked around by Stateria or something, because the payoff is just more than worth it. there isnt even an accuracy decrease when Just Attacking, its just "LOL +4000 DAMAGE".

--------

BIG NUMBARZ is what everyone goes for, but as boring or selfish as it is, thats the most efficient method of fighting. You cant get mad at hunters for not "holding back" because majjara and jarbroga does too much damage. Thats like saying "STOP BEING UBER, WE'RE TRYING TO BE USEFUL HERE" or something. Hunters shouldn't have to not use their most powerful PA's just because people are angry they have no edge to anything in combat.

thats my point. Either hunters need to be nerfed (highly unlikely), or both gunners and forces need compensation...mainly because they never got any. Mostly forces. Ranger gets enough payoffs for their abilities, many of which is rarely ever having to get hit if someone else is in the room with them. (sometimes even otherwise.)


I really hate to do this, but I disagree with both of these points.

1. Back when I played PSO (and I'm talking as someone who played it on Dreamcast version 1, and the Gamecube version), my combo after getting a few levels under my belt was normal->heavy->heavy, making the normal attack almost completely useless (and even used heavy->heavy->special on HP absorb weapons). The hit rate was lower, but after a certain point, it didn't make that much of a difference.

2. As I said before, I don't always go for big numbers, I usually have one weapon for that for bosses and the like. And your theory of "everyone should kill as fast as they can" reminds me a lot of (again) PSO, back when I played at a lower level, and a high-level guy hopped in my game with a Heavenly Punishment (or was it Punisher?). He shot everything in the room, killing it as soon as it appeared, and not letting me get a single hit in, thus earning me no XP. I asked if he could slow down, stop, use something else, but nothing mattered to him - instead of being a team player, he continued to care for himself (and I don't mean "I'm 20, he's 30", I mean "I'm 20, he's level 80 or so on NORMAL"). That's why your strategy does indeed work, but only for you. If you cared at all about anyone else who was with you, then you would let them get a shot at the enemies, and don't give me that "if you can't hit them before they die, then you must suck at the game" crap - if you want to be the bestest-best player in the whole wide world, then go play something that has PvP and actually gives you something to brag about, not a game that's only PvE, rewards team playing, and has a population (on the PC version) of about 300 people.

Frankly, if they nerfed hunters, it wouldn't bother me, especially if all they did was decrease majarra and jabroga's damage. Maybe then we'd have some variation in the game, as opposed to nothing but cast fighmasters who use majarra, jabroga, and whatever the double saber PA of the month is. But hey, it's my opinion - feel free to disagree with me if you want.

[mll]

"thats my point. Either hunters need to be nerfed (highly unlikely), or both gunners and forces need compensation...mainly because they never got any. Mostly forces. Ranger gets enough payoffs for their abilities, many of which is rarely ever having to get hit if someone else is in the room with them. (sometimes even otherwise.)"

Hunters don't need to be nerfed there not even as strong as Rangers. JA brought them up to the same point as Rangers.
Rangers got loads of compensation 45% elemental mods on laser cannons, knockdown with lvl.31 bullets, leveling bullets 3x faster. They didn't even need any boosts they've been the most broken class from the day the game was released. Fighters need some compensation for Ranger boosts.
Forces need a huge boost (and no more rod boosts all the techers need a boost to tech damage). Thats true but if you think Fighters have some huge advantage over rangers then your delusional.

EDIT: Forces got compensation 20% damage boost on rods, 10 support cap levels, flinch on the remaining dam- techs, decrease in pp costs. It wasn't enough but they got boosts.
Also JA isn't godly as you claim for instance Gravity Break does more damage without JA because the delays between the PA hitting and the attack animation ending (when you can JA the 2nd combo) makes the combo take more than 150% the time. Also without JA you can get crits randomly and less chance of being knocked out of the combo.

[RemiusTA]

"thats my point. Either hunters need to be nerfed (highly unlikely), or both gunners and forces need compensation...mainly because they never got any. Mostly forces. Ranger gets enough payoffs for their abilities, many of which is rarely ever having to get hit if someone else is in the room with them. (sometimes even otherwise.)"

Hunters don't need to be nerfed there not even as strong as Rangers. JA brought them up to the same point as Rangers.
Rangers got loads of compensation 45% elemental mods on laser cannons, knockdown with lvl.31 bullets, leveling bullets 3x faster. They didn't even need any boosts they've been the most broken class from the day the game was released. Fighters need some compensation for Ranger boosts.
Forces need a huge boost (and no more rod boosts all the techers need a boost to tech damage). Thats true but if you think Fighters have some huge advantage over rangers then your delusional.

EDIT: Forces got compensation 20% damage boost on rods, 10 support cap levels, flinch on the remaining dam- techs, decrease in pp costs. It wasn't enough but they got boosts.
Also JA isn't godly as you claim for instance Gravity Break does more damage without JA because the delays between the PA hitting and the attack animation ending (when you can JA the 2nd combo) makes the combo take more than 150% the time. Also without JA you can get crits randomly and less chance of being knocked out of the combo.

Well that Gravity Break situation is only one situation. Im sure they're more, but it still doesnt change anything.

Im not trying to make JA sound like its some kind of superwtfgodlybroken technique or something....but it kind of is.


Ranger boosts are quite godly as they reach endgame potental, but they dont completely eclipse fighters in any way. Their added damage gives serious support to their capabilities, but its nothing so broken that people bitch about it. I mostly didnt include Rangers in this arguement becuase i dont personally use/care for them...but yes, i already know their potental for dropping enemies.

I never said Hunters have huge advantages over Rangers. Thats why nobody is really even talking about them..they've always been fine. They've had to complain about bullets, but thats about it. Forces on the other hand need some serious help to catch up. Hell, not even catch up. To be included in the game. We work on technics just as hard as bullets, but still suck. But saying Rangers are stronger than hunters would be a debate. If you hold a contest for how fast a pro hunter and ranger could clear waves of enemies of every type, there would be a good competition between them.




1. Back when I played PSO (and I'm talking as someone who played it on Dreamcast version 1, and the Gamecube version), my combo after getting a few levels under my belt was normal->heavy->heavy, making the normal attack almost completely useless (and even used heavy->heavy->special on HP absorb weapons). The hit rate was lower, but after a certain point, it didn't make that much of a difference.It wasnt useless. It felt like in PSO, if i didnt at least start off with normal attacks, my entire string of heavy's would miss. Besides, you usually need to flinch them before you hit them. They were'nt completely useless, becuase if you wern't allowed to do them, it would cripple you pretty badly. Ult. mode was just "you-arent-good-enough-to-swing-and-not-miss-me" mode to me and everyone who played with me offline.




2. As I said before, I don't always go for big numbers, I usually have one weapon for that for bosses and the like. And your theory of "everyone should kill as fast as they can" reminds me a lot of (again) PSO, back when I played at a lower level, and a high-level guy hopped in my game with a Heavenly Punishment (or was it Punisher?). He shot everything in the room, killing it as soon as it appeared, and not letting me get a single hit in, thus earning me no XP. I asked if he could slow down, stop, use something else, but nothing mattered to him - instead of being a team player, he continued to care for himself (and I don't mean "I'm 20, he's 30", I mean "I'm 20, he's level 80 or so on NORMAL"). That's why your strategy does indeed work, but only for you. If you cared at all about anyone else who was with you, then you would let them get a shot at the enemies, and don't give me that "if you can't hit them before they die, then you must suck at the game" crap - if you want to be the bestest-best player in the whole wide world, then go play something that has PvP and actually gives you something to brag about, not a game that's only PvE, rewards team playing, and has a population (on the PC version) of about 300 people.First off, PSO was not the most balanced game on earth. In fact, it was worse than this is now. I remember in DC PSO, Humars ruled the universe lol.

Second...your scenario really doesnt even apply. You're talking about a lv 20 vs. a lv 80. Not two lv80's with equal equipment and skill with one being obviously more efficient.

Now if the latter was true (which it is, between hunters and forces in PSU), then you misunderstood me. Im not saying you should kill everything in the room with no regard for your teammates. Im saying if you and your teammates are on equal ground, the game should not be so unbalanced where you cant even keep up because one class is better than you at absolutely everything.

What im saying is, a game like this shouldn't be reduced to "PLEASE DONT USE THAT SKILL, I WANT TO ACTUALLY GET TO HIT SOMETHING BEFORE IT DIES" in the first place. There should be no ability that unfair thats specific to one class.

[Zyrusticae]

What the hell? You seriously think the delay on JAs is so insignificant that it doesn't warrant consideration?

Have you ever tried doing the normal swing with a sword and waiting for that first swing to end so you can start the JA? It takes at least twice as long, and I am NOT exaggerating. Even within the PA itself - if you do nothing but spam gravity break, you'll notice that the JA version takes roughly 150% as much time to pull off as the normal version.

You want proof? Watch this video closely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpPJxW8SJU
Normal version - 4 seconds (from 0:01 to 0:05)
JA version - 6 seconds (from 0:07 to 0:13)

I think how much this affects your overall DPS should be obvious.

[mll]

If you get that rangers are just as strong as a melee class then whats with all the bitterness aimed directly at hunters. Rangers were broken long before Hunters. Are you bitter that they fixed hunters and not forces or what?
I basically agree with you though I've been saying for ages that Forces need a boost. (and a serious JA equivalent boost not some pissy S-rank pistol for fT style boost).

[Sexy_Raine]

If you get that rangers are just as strong as a melee class then whats with all the bitterness aimed directly at hunters. Rangers were broken long before Hunters. Are you bitter that they fixed hunters and not forces or what?
I basically agree with you though I've been saying for ages that Forces need a boost. (and a serious JA equivalent boost not some pissy S-rank pistol for fT style boost).


Gunmaster does not need to be nerfed at all, ever. A class that takes a long time to be effective and raise all bullets to 50 deserves to be a strong class unlike Fighgmaster nubs who only use Majarra/TD/Jabroga and can easily be just as effective. Give GM Grenades, and Jabroga can stay the way it is. If not, nerf that PA. Also Maylee Shot needs to double hit like Maylee Hit.

[mll]

Agreed, there a reasonable balance with Hunters and Rangers in the game.
FM nubs who only use Majarra/TD/Jabroga aren't even vaguely effective. Getting bullets up since the boost is easy enough. Where gunners have to put work in to bullets, hunters put the work in synthing weapons, it seems fair enough to me.
Give GM g. launchers lol. Yeah because GM is a class that needs a boost. Ok give GM a grenades and give FM slicers to make up for not having a laser cannon. Then give every other class in the game invincibility to make up for how laughably broken both are.
Jabroga is fine it'll one shot mobs 20 levels lower than an average player (one who doesn't have a collection of 50% zagza's) at which point any other pa will do the same faster. The only time Jabroga is useful is against bosses (just like grenades and oh guess what they do a similar amount of damage). Your basically saying a PA thats useful against 5-10 enemies should be nerfed. I think all rangers should start using grenades against every mob in the game to show just how retarded doing the same with Jabroga is.

[Magus_84]

Grenades aren't capable of one-shotting spawns 30 levels lower, even.

And a FM that uses only Jabroga/TD/Majarra may be a "noob", but they're a "noob" that kills faster than anything else in the game when geared appropriately.

And on all the "good" PAs (good meaning "broken"), the JA's increased time is insignificant. Look at Majarra. Jabroga's slow as-is, and the time you spend waiting to JA isn't enough to make you get hit out of it any more than you would've normally. So assuming you're using it properly, it's insignificant. And TD's mostly used for travel, last I'd heard.

Increased JA timing is only an issue for people who want to justify their purchase of over-priced swords with the potential for LOLBIGNUMBARZ on Gravity Break.

GM's fine as-is, as it requires more of a time investment in PA leveling than FM for performance that's equal in some areas and not as good in others. You can't have a fluke stroke of luck and suddenly have your PA jump from level 10 to level 50 in an instant, no matter how much cash you throw at it.

MF (and casting in general) is where the problems lie.

[Zyrusticae]

Grenades aren't capable of one-shotting spawns 30 levels lower, even.

Grenades also come out considerably faster... If they could one-shot spawns they'd be totally, utterly broken, especially considering Jabroga takes about 7 seconds to go through the entire animation.


Increased JA timing is only an issue for people who want to justify their purchase of over-priced swords with the potential for LOLBIGNUMBARZ on Gravity Break.
Hey, now. What about the rest of us fighters that aren't using Jabroga and Majarra 'til the cows come home?

The increased JA timing applies for both shop axe PAs in a big, big way. But of course, since they're not the problem, nobody cares, right?

Yeah, at this point I think it'd abundantly clear that the problem lies not with JA as a mechanic, but certain PAs (and particularly PAs with animation cycles that provide minimum risk and maximum reward).

But nobody'd care if techers were just brought up to snuff with the other classes.

But then we'd have even more people complaining about the game being too easy. Well, I guess there's nothing that can be done for that. Not like Sega cares, anywho. (What's the JP players' take on that, anyways?)

[Ruru]

in regards to this entire topic.

let forces multi hit bosses/large enemies with ra/gi techs and we wont feel so useless anymore.

[desturel]

1) - muti-target ability should remain exclusive to melee PAs to compensate for taking risk to be up close to enemies.

Like Grenade Launchers and Shotguns. Of course, I see now. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Let's not forget that Jabroga can actually be done from further away than a Dam or Gi-spell.


2) - it's trade off for lv41+ attack spells & faster casting, adds more depth & challenge for MF.

Love how the lack of HP is actually a bonus. Since when has a Fighter been had their HP trimmed down so poorly that they could get one hit KOd? Fighmasters (except for human female and neuman) still have over 4000HP, they get level 41+ attacks and faster attack speed.


3) - 100% hit accuracy makes up for techs, if it hits then it can't miss.

If it hits. We don't have lock on like fighters do and we don't have a rapid fire rate like a gunner where we can readjust when we miss. If the 100% hit rate actually meant anything, we would be the fastest killers in the game. We aren't.


4) - Regrant owns Magashi, you better have 10 scapes if you try the same with saber PAs.

Are you kidding me? I'm going to assume Magashi from Bladed legacy not Seed-Magashi. Anyway, Bladed Legacy Magashi gets trapped in a corner until you have to heal once. Since you can't heal and attack at the same time, he will get out and then it's a long process of dodging until you can hit him again and hope he doesn't hit you. With a fighter, I can heal WHILE I do my attacks.

I've soloed Bladed Legacy S2 as a masterforce, gunmaster and fighmaster. Gunmaster has it the easiest since you can carry burn traps and use Burning Shot 41 in a corner with NPC's soaking up damage (carry moonX to bring them back up). Fighmaster was more difficult, but Tornado Dance and Rising Strike were all I needed to get around. Masterforce was by far the most difficult. I didn't have enough HP to take one combo like I could as a Fighmaster or Gunmaster. I couldn't abuse knock down since Regrant requires you to position all of the Magashi at once when you are soloing (much harder than you obviously think it is). Plus even when I did get all of them in the corner with Regrant, I couldn't do it for long since I didn't have the HP to be able to keep three creatures locked up for more than a few seconds with the crits.

Please stop spewing BS until you've done it yourself. You have no idea how a techer works Bladed Legacy so stop pretending as if you do.


Nos spells do have knockdown effect on top of muti-hit creatures and auto-aim home in ability to closest target. It can even hit enemies behind you or hiding around the corridor, bullets can't do that. These techs are highly situational meaning you gotta know when to use certain techs to take full advantage of them, unlike bullets or skills.

Again, stating nonsense. Nos techs, as with every other tech, are completely situational, as you mention. They have knock down if and only if the creature isn't already in an attack animation or spell cast. In the time it takes you to fire off ONE noszonde and have the animation complete, you can fire off at least 8 rifle shots as a Gunmaster making the rifle a much more effective knock down utility in any situation, even if you do need to run around the corner to get it done. Rising strike is faster and does more damage with knock up and blow away. The only case where the knock down of a nos-tech is more useful than the knockup/blow away of rising strike/crush is on creatures that disappear when they are knocked up/blown away (aka Komazli). This is, of course, ignoring that it's much quicker to killed Komazli with Megid/Foie than it is to kill them with noszonde/nosmegid by a factor of about 5. Heck, if there are two or three standing around each other, Ramegid/Rafoie is quicker and has a better chance of hitting all of them than the nos-techs.

Which brings me to another complaint. Nos-techs are mostly useful against flying and small creatures. Medium sized creatures, especially casters that it is most useful to knock down like Gohmon, Komazli, Bal Soza, or even Rogue Wicco, can continue to attack after a nos-spell hits them. They don't fall down if they are in the middle of their attack animation and for the most part, casters are spread out in a manner where a nos tech can't easily hit more than one of them.

The only tech casting creature (where tech casting is their main attack) that stays grouped up in a nice, easy to manage nos-tech abusable cluster are Vanda Mehra and they are mostly only really affective against the ground Vanda Mehra in Awoken Serpent. Fire Vanda Mehra are better served by killing with Rabarta since they will cast diga over your head. Ice Vanda Mehra are a complete joke and can be killed by pretty much anything you want to kill them with (lol Caves of Ice). If you want to waste time casting Nos-techs on them go right ahead, but believe me, you are wasting time (you can level a nos-tech better on GoBajilla, Nava Ludda, Sageeta, etc so it's not even worth leveling that particular tech at caves of ice).

In the case of ice or light Gohmon, nos techs are slower than their attack and do half damage to them, so it's quicker to get in from of them with a dam tech, or if you are in a spot where a dam tech won't hit all of them at once, smacking them individually with foie/rafoie/ramegid. Nos techs would leave you vulnerable to their attack (not something you want to do against a higher level Gohmon). In the case of fire gohmon, nos techs are almost completely useless. Even if you do get them stuck on a corner, in many cases they can toss foie through walls, leaving you with burn marks on your ass.

Even simple creatures like Golmoro mostly ignore nosmegid with their hopping around. Ollaka tend to run around in circles meaning that many times you will only hit one or two at a time. The fact that they are far too slow to use on creatures like Bul Buna and Goshin are a major draw back. You are better off using Regrant on worms.

I can continue listing the weaknesses of the nostechs for each creature you could possibly use it on, but that would be time consuming and more wordy than I have already been. You bring me an example and I'll either support or refute the usefulness of noszonde/megid in that example.

Nosdiga is obviously not included because it works in a completely different manner than other nos techs. For one thing, nosdiga doesn't knock down. For another thing, nosdiga has horrible tracking. One goes right one goes center, one goes left. Is a creature is standing just a bit ahead of you and to the left, it's almost guaranteed that one of the snakes will miss. You need to stand up close to use nosdiga effectively (i.e. hit all strikes on a single target), which contradicts the points you were making about the safety of nos techs. (of course, I'm sure you weren't including nosdiga in your example either, but I'm adding it in for people who will eventually complain that I didn't include it with my examples)



5) - if you're referring to general casting speed for all technics, MF & Har/ units were designed for this.

The horrible recovery time is including all spells. Even the fastest casting spell, zonde on a masterforce with har/smart on a madoog, has a recovery lag on par with a shotgun. They only get worse from there. The majority of spells that you use have about the same cast speed as a laser cannon on a fortegunner without the creature penetration. When you use a laser cannon, do you stand in one spot the whole time or do you constantly have to readjust where you are facing after each shot.


If you mean for certain spells like Nos techs, the duration of recovery time is related to the distance the Nos ball travels and you have full control of it by holding down attack button. The minimum recovery time is necessary to prevent the abusing of repeated casting to hit targets in close proximity.

You do not have full control of nos techs. Even if you press and let go of the button immediately, you are still locked into the casting animation. The "abusing of repeated casting to hit targets in close proximity" is exactly what every other class has and is what makes nos-techs, as a mentioned previously, only useful in a handful of situations. If creatures are in a close enough proximity, you are better off using a Dam-tech or Gi-tech. If it's a creature that needs to be knocked down there's is little use in being in close proximity casting nos-techs. I guess if you want your NPC to attack them, but at that point you are likely in a situation where the creature isn't too big of a threat to you. It's doesn't really matter what you use on a creature when you out level them and you can trust your NPC to do most of the killing.



Let's just say they let techers cast 2nd Nos ball before 1st ball even hits the closest target, while the 2nd ball is travelling the 1st ball homes in and kills the target, then do you think the 2nd ball should automatically search for the next closest target to home in and change its course on the fly all by itself?

Noszonde and nosmegid stay locked onto a dead creature until their body disappears, so your example doesn't make much sense to me. In many cases, they don't immediately lock onto another target and will fly off into a wall, fizzling, before they hit anything else. In general holding a nos spell of that long after a creature is dead is a waste of time. If you meant something different, please clarify.


It's the same kind of problem when using Cards most of time. I don't think that's such a simple coding to work out as it sounds.

Cards don't lock onto a new target. If the target dies before the card reaches them, they will fall. It's possible they can hit another target that was close enough to the original target, but they aren't homing in on it, the target moved in front of the card. Again, I'm not sure what to make of your example, so you'll need to clarify.

[RemiusTA]

What the hell? You seriously think the delay on JAs is so insignificant that it doesn't warrant consideration?

Have you ever tried doing the normal swing with a sword and waiting for that first swing to end so you can start the JA? It takes at least twice as long, and I am NOT exaggerating. Even within the PA itself - if you do nothing but spam gravity break, you'll notice that the JA version takes roughly 150% as much time to pull off as the normal version.

You want proof? Watch this video closely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpPJxW8SJU
Normal version - 4 seconds (from 0:01 to 0:05)
JA version - 6 seconds (from 0:07 to 0:13)

I think how much this affects your overall DPS should be obvious.

What the hell indeed.

Depending on the enemy, it IS insignificant. For instance, if you're fighting a multitarget enemy, your JA damage will make a significant difference.

Would you say the same thing for Anga Redda or Majjara? Or any other PA for that instance? Seriously, using gravity break doesn't negate the argument or anything. I personally use the JA almost everytime i use Gravity Break, regardless of what im fighting. It doesn't make a difference really.

(Just for the record.. 4x2 is not 6.)


And piggybacking off of what desturel said, Yes Nos techniques are fucking useless unless its Nosdiga. For how slow they are they should by DEFAULT do at least 3x their damage. Seriously.

[Zyrusticae]

(Just for the record.. 4x2 is not 6.)


No, it's not. 4x2 is 200% of 4. What you're looking for is 4*1.5, which is 6, which is 150% of 4.

I may fail at many things, but basic arithmetic is not one of those, thank you very much.

Now, if what you say is true, then the end-result damage increase is actually greater than 50% due to the way DFP works. Which means, yes, JA does need a nerf so that the end-result damage is, in fact, closer to a 50% increase and not a 100% increase...

[RemiusTA]

Btw guys, please dont tell techers that they dont need balancing because for some reason we're using our characters wrong.

We all have used Regrants and Nos- techs and know how useless they are. Knocking down enemies with technics that steal from your already pathetic HP and ranged auto-homing technics that take 9 hours to cast do not help us be useful. They are so situational that you might as well take out a saber/handgun and do the job manually.

[mll]

The reason fT was good in v1 was because they had easy access to se4 which was godly, that was their large enemy weapon so ST really should offer some replacement to that - the obvious choice being techs hitting multiple targets.
Also enemys had enough HP to actually get a hit in in v1 making support techs useful if not necessary. Also making 100k in v1 required a degree of effort so spending 10k on mates every few runs was expensive. Mates are way too cheap in AoI. A stack costs the same as the luck lady and you only need to buy them on the rare occasion.
So make Nos and Gi techs hit multiple points. Ra techs at lvl. 41 just make Gi techs kind of useless, so it would be a good bonus for them. Then increase enemy HP by 30-40% making Jabroga a boss only weapon and healing techs once again useful. Then multiply the cost of mates x10 or so. Don't nerf Majarra please, FM's will just end up using Spiral Dance and Dugrega against everything. Or if were lucky they'll use Tornado Dance against everything. Seriously who wants that?

[MrNomad]

What? Hunters can deal more dmg than the class im using? BAAAAAAAAAAAAAW. I don't care if I'm using a range class that can shoot targets far from any danger at my leisure, I also want to do ZOMGWTFBBQDAMAGE too!

That's the problem with PSU (aside from many other problems): There's no strategy or any real class uniqueness in the game, or any challenge to it. To be the best, you have to do the most damage and then BAM, win hammer. Enemies in this game aren't difficult, teamwork doesn't matter either because classes become so godly endgame that you can just solo missions by yourself. Even when you form a team it's like playing paint ball, only the other team just lies on the ground waiting for you to shoot them. Instead of having a game where team support and strategy would be the key to winning missions, all that matters is the class you picked doing more damage than the other classes so you wouldn't feel insecure about killing a mob about 5 seconds slower than they could. Everything in this game dies easily without putting up a fight, but nooooooo, one class does more big numbers than I do. They need to nerf them and buff me, then this game would be teh best gaem evar. Then our population would go from squatt to squatt and a half! :D

I don't even know why I'd tell my beef I have with this game since I don't play it anymore. Guess the pain is still there D:

"continues to wait for Phantasy Star Zero"

[RemiusTA]

What? Hunters can deal more dmg than the class im using? BAAAAAAAAAAAAAW. I don't care if I'm using a range class that can shoot targets far from any danger at my leisure, I also want to do ZOMGWTFBBQDAMAGE too!

That's the problem with PSU (aside from many other problems): There's no strategy or any real class uniqueness in the game, or any challenge to it. To be the best, you have to do the most damage and then BAM, win hammer. Enemies in this game aren't difficult, teamwork doesn't matter either because classes become so godly endgame that you can just solo missions by yourself. Even when you form a team it's like playing paint ball, only the other team just lies on the ground waiting for you to shoot them. Instead of having a game where team support and strategy would be the key to winning missions, all that matters is the class you picked doing more damage than the other classes so you wouldn't feel insecure about killing a mob about 5 seconds slower than they could. Everything in this game dies easily without putting up a fight, but nooooooo, one class does more big numbers than I do. They need to nerf them and buff me, then this game would be teh best gaem evar. Then our population would go from squatt to squatt and a half! :D

I don't even know why I'd tell my beef I have with this game since I don't play it anymore. Guess the pain is still there D:

"continues to wait for Phantasy Star Zero"

I was wating for one of you kinds of people to pop up.

If this was about "hunters doing more damage than [X class]" then it wouldn't be such an accepted issue. You're under the impression we're arguing about BIGNUMBARZ, but it doesnt have anything to do with it.

If you would actually READ instead of just posting to say random things that have nothing to do with this conversation, you would know we're going deeper than just bitching about hitting over 9000 damage. We're talking about why one class of this game is practically useless other than for eye candy.

Playing as a team is fun until you realize you no longer are useful enough to be part of one. Your entire arguement fails.

And i laughed my ass off at you thinking Phantasy Star Zero will be any better. Thats like saying "I CANT WAIT FOR PHANTASY STAR PORTABLE". You DO realize the same people are making these games, right? Until they learn why things get fucked up, they will never fix them. Sonic Team is not Capcom.

[Christmas]

Probably just me during a 12 hour day of work, but does this thread seem only about the balance issues between pure types? (Fortes, masters) What about the other classes? ^^;

[RemiusTA]

Its not really forte/master specific, its more like combat stragety specific.

While talking about Hunters, Rangers, and Forces, we're most specifically talking about Striking, Ranged and Technic weapons/abilities and how unbalanced they've become. It most likely seems like we're only taking about Forte/Master classes because thats where the difference is so obvious. Fortetechers are primarily focused on Technic weapons, so their flaws are most obvious when playing as one, as opposed to playing a wartecher or acrotecher. Masterforce is the same way.

There really is no balance to be had in Ranged and Striking weapons, so hybrid classes of that type usually accel as they should. Technic hybrids dont have to lean so heavily on technics. (good amount of striking/ranged weapons and balanced PA's to use with them.) However classes that choose to rely heavily on technics (like hunters and rangers do with striking/ranged weapons respectively) dont really have much to be happy about these days, which is what we're generally talking about.


Although, this has mostly become a "why do forces suck so damn bad" thread now. Nobody has any complaints for Rangers because by endgame, rangers are badass and can hold their own very well with proper use of their arsenal. Hunters are the same (although the learning curve is damn near horizontal.) Forces however start off pretty good, but by the time they should start getting awesome like rangers, they just get left in the dust and, quite literately, stop improving after a certian level.

[PALRAPPYS]

Like damage even matters... everything dies so fast with any class when you SOLO. :p

[AlphaDragoon]

I do love the point that mll made; pretty much EVERBODY in here is complaining about fighters (who needed a buff from vanilla PSU, let's be real here), and nobody's talking about the WTFhax gunners, especially GM.

It seriously seems like techer-only players are BAWWWing because they fixed fighters and didn't fix techers, not because of any kind of balancing issue. If it was really about balance they'd be calling for the gunner nerfs just as hard, if not harder.

JA in general is just fine. Certain moves (you know of what I speak) need to be nerfed, but not the entire system. Techers should do more damage, but not like vanilla PSU where they owned everything. Buff the damage on techs a little, but not to JA levels or you risk it going back to "lolz u fighter nubs suck I tech and kill everything" like it was before.

[darkante]

Like damage even matters... everything dies so fast with any class when you SOLO. :p

I seriously doubt that. Let´s be really cruel here...Job class Force lv 1 with lv 1-10 techniques and no NPC for shields.
Good luck with that.

[Zyrusticae]

After some testing, I have to say that any claims that the attack speed increase is insignificant are full of crap.

The 150% attack speed decrease has been consistent among almost every PA I've tested (though mind you, none of them have been the so-called "broken" PAs). Just as frequently, my damage has only increased by the expected 50% interval, which means that my DPS has not changed at all - rather, I'm simply getting more damage for the same amount of PP. The increased damage does NOT overcome the decreased attack speed. If you think it does, that's because you suck at basic arithmetic and can't wrap your head around the idea of "Damage Per SECOND". Just because the numbers are bigger (50% bigger, almost exactly) doesn't mean it's automatically better.

Yes, sure, there are some PAs that buck the trend, but those are the ones out of the loop and are themselves in need of fixing, and not the system itself.

[/rage]

[mvffin]

"Damage Per SECOND".
[/rage]

First of all, Gravity break is garbage. Swords are slow as fuck and GB hits one target. Your example is terrible. Most PA's don't take nearly 1.5x as long to JA with, and are always better DPS when JA'ing. Also in that video, PSU is not running on a high quality system, and its not a FM using the skill, which would make it slightly faster as well.

LETS LOOK AT JABROGA, since its so "broken." 7 seconds to execute, ~8-9 probably with a JA. and I do 1.5x damage. Yeah, thats more DPS. No calculation needed for a math whiz such as yourself, but go ahead and calc if you want to. Adding to the fact that you will probably kill the enemies with that one JA Jabroga, whereas it would take ANOTHER 7 SECONDS to kill them if you hadn't JA'd, also you'd have to gather them all together again, since they would be in all corners of the room.

DPS is one thing, but KILLS PER SECOND ( KPS )is the main thing that increases with JA.

[Zyrusticae]

Did you even read my post?

Jabroga is one of the exceptions. Try Redda or Dugreda, or even Moubu Seiren-Zan (a very fast twin dagger art) and you'll find very noticeable (and oftentimes dangerous) changes in execution time. You'd have to be extremely stupid (hint: retarded) not to use JA on a PA with no combo.

[desturel]

Probably just me during a 12 hour day of work, but does this thread seem only about the balance issues between pure types? (Fortes, masters) What about the other classes? ^^;

Because the initial post specified fortes and masters. If you want to start a Guntecher/Wartecher thread, I would be more than happy to argue on their behalf.


I do love the point that mll made; pretty much EVERBODY in here is complaining about fighters (who needed a buff from vanilla PSU, let's be real here), and nobody's talking about the WTFhax gunners, especially GM.

Why don't I have a problem with gunners? The gunners unbalance is more due to one thing. Level 31+ rifle knockdown. Nothing else changed for them. Shotgun has always been their strongest weapon. Laser cannons needed a buff. Twin handguns? There's nothing wrong with those.

So if I was going to argue against gunmaster, I'd have to argue against the rifle knockdown that they added onto gunner.

The whole point of gunner is if you want to be effective, you have to level everything. To be an effective hunter, you need to level three things. Maybe four. I'm more inclined to complain about how horribly unbalanced Paradi is than anything a gunner has.



It seriously seems like techer-only players

Wrong again. I play all of the classes, but you can continue to make assumptions. Unlike people who don't play techer, I can make comparisons without assumptions. I know what it's like to play all of the classes on this game.


are BAWWWing because they fixed fighters and didn't fix techers, not because of any kind of balancing issue.

So stating facts is bawwwwing now? I can start bawwing if you'd like.

The only balance techers are looking for is a multi-hit spell. I can't figure out what is so hard for you to understand about this. Techers have no boss killer and no large creature killer. That is the lack of balance we are talking about.

We can get around the fact that there are useless techs.
We can get around that some of the best spells to use are missing elements (where's the fire barta? Where's the lighting Dam-tech? Where's the ice foie? Nosbarta? Gi-megid?).
We can get around the fact that we have no efficient light based attack.

What we can't get around is why we have nothing to take out a large creature (for example... every boss in the game).

The fact that, no other class has to compensate for the lack of opposite element damage. Nor, have they completely retracted the use of two of you photon arts for balance issues (Dizas and Rentis will never be released). Nor have piss poor HP as a "bonus" as claimed by HyperShot and other people who have obviously never played techer. Those should all be clues.


If it was really about balance they'd be calling for the gunner nerfs just as hard, if not harder.

I'm not asking for fighters or gunners to be nerfed. I'm asking for multi-target damage for techers. I haven't said "remove Jabroga and Majarra", I'm saying "give rafoie the ability to multi-target hit".


JA in general is just fine. Certain moves (you know of what I speak) need to be nerfed,

Seems that you think they need to be nerfed, I personally don't care about those in particular. Jabroga takes 5 seconds to get off and leaves you wide open. Majarra is just a very useful utility move. It's not the most damaging, but it is the most versitile. I didn't think Dus Daggas needed to be nerfed way back when they did it. About the only thing I felt that needed a nerf was Chikki. That one was game breaking.



but not the entire system. Techers should do more damage, but not like vanilla PSU where they owned everything.

Did you play techer in version 1? We didn't own everything. I don't know where you got that mis-conception from. Just because we could kill volfu and bees easily, doesn't mean it didn't take us an hour to kill a Jarba. In particular runs like Rainbow Beast, Moonlight Beast, and Demons above were horrible runs for techers. Doing a run like Seed Awakening was almost impossible to solo as a techer back in version 1. Gunners were the "god class" back then. Techer were better on some runs. Fighters were better on Moatoob missions (which no one really ran). Gunners were better on Neudaiz missions. Techers were better at most Parum missions (particularly ones with Bees and Robots).


Buff the damage on techs a little, but not to JA levels or you risk it going back to "lolz u fighter nubs suck I tech and kill everything" like it was before.

You don't even need to buff tech damage in my opinion. Just have multi-target damage.

[Magus_84]

Did you even read my post?

Jabroga is one of the exceptions. Try Redda or Dugreda, or even Moubu Seiren-Zan (a very fast twin dagger art) and you'll find very noticeable (and oftentimes dangerous) changes in execution time. You'd have to be extremely stupid (hint: retarded) not to use JA on a PA with no combo.

Basing your comparison on the (comparatively) weakest options available to the most broken class (and to classes less broken) is meaningless when the most powerful options are also the most widely used.

People can piss and moan about the Majarra/Jabroga/Tornado Dance "noobs" all they want, but that doesn't stop there being hundreds of them.

Techers need a valid big enemy option to even approach parity. They also need an effective series of light-elemental attacks.

Also. You might want to notice that Fighters are the only class that can obtain 50% for any element on any weapon they prefer to use. Gunners and Techers cannot. Since we're throwing around stuff like "Masterforce has lower HP!" as an "advantage", I figure I might as well mention one thing that's always overlooked, but is one of the Fighter's biggest advantages.

Even in the mysterious bizarro-world some posters in this topic seem to live in. You know, the one where the multitudes of people who are elitist enough to kill things before other party members get a chance to attack somehow don't have all that 36%+ melee gear.

The gear that, as a "balance factor", is supposed to not exist or be so prohibitively expensive that no one will have it except a tiny percentage of the population.


And this one holds true even if you're trying to bias the comparison in favor of techers by using PAs that nearly no one uses.

[mll]

Actually Forces have a hidden elemental mod on their techs its the same as the techs level. So a level 50 tech will have a 50% elemental mod. With a same element rod they can get up to 62% with the 12% on rods.
Light techs would be nice. And I think a damage buff on techs would probably be necessary to make them at all useful on a WT. Currently melee will outdamage techs against melee-resistant enemies.

[Magus_84]

Actually Forces have a hidden elemental mod on their techs its the same as the techs level. So a level 50 tech will have a 50% elemental mod. With a same element rod they can get up to 62% with the 12% on rods.
Light techs would be nice. And I think a damage buff on techs would probably be necessary to make them at all useful on a WT. Currently melee will outdamage techs against melee-resistant enemies.

Yeah, I knew about that, but thank you for mentioning it (despite how sarcastic it may sound, I sincerely mean that).

I meant it more in the sense of "the weapon doesn't say 50%", which is why I compared it in absurdity to "An advantage to Masterforce is that it has lower HP!".

[PALRAPPYS]

I seriously doubt that. Let´s be really cruel here...Job class Force lv 1 with lv 1-10 techniques and no NPC for shields.
Good luck with that.

Everyone knows you level up too fast in PSU--WTF is a lv1? lol XD

[HyperShot-X-]

Like Grenade Launchers and Shotguns. Of course, I see now. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Let's not forget that Jabroga can actually be done from further away than a Dam or Gi-spell.
like grenade matters which is the slowest and worst targeting range wep, shotgun still needs to be up close to the target for point blank multi-hit damages. After Jabroga hits on any dragonoid boss you will likely get stomped flat on ground and ran over while Dam or Gi spells already excels at doing massive damage to multiple creatures up close, there are other technics that do better job of dealing most damage on a single creature already.



Love how the lack of HP is actually a bonus. Since when has a Fighter been had their HP trimmed down so poorly that they could get one hit KOd? Fighmasters (except for human female and neuman) still have over 4000HP, they get level 41+ attacks and faster attack speed.
if you can't handle MF due to its lower HP then maybe it's better to go back to FT or AT, after all MF wasn't designed to replace other techer types, just like FM can't replace other fighter types.



If it hits. We don't have lock on like fighters do and we don't have a rapid fire rate like a gunner where we can readjust when we miss. If the 100% hit rate actually meant anything, we would be the fastest killers in the game. We aren't.
it means that where techers are lacking in 'versatility', 100% hit rate makes up for it, and it doesn't always have to do anything with how fast they kill or do most damage in the party.



Are you kidding me? I'm going to assume Magashi from Bladed legacy not Seed-Magashi. Anyway, Bladed Legacy Magashi gets trapped in a corner until you have to heal once. Since you can't heal and attack at the same time, he will get out and then it's a long process of dodging until you can hit him again and hope he doesn't hit you. With a fighter, I can heal WHILE I do my attacks.
are you saying that a techer can't pop trimates while managing to juggle around a few Magashis in the corner? I'm sure I have done both in the party and it was far more effective to be a techer than a fighter.



I've soloed Bladed Legacy S2 as a masterforce, gunmaster and fighmaster. Gunmaster has it the easiest since you can carry burn traps and use Burning Shot 41 in a corner with NPC's soaking up damage (carry moonX to bring them back up). Fighmaster was more difficult, but Tornado Dance and Rising Strike were all I needed to get around. Masterforce was by far the most difficult. I didn't have enough HP to take one combo like I could as a Fighmaster or Gunmaster. I couldn't abuse knock down since Regrant requires you to position all of the Magashi at once when you are soloing (much harder than you obviously think it is). Plus even when I did get all of them in the corner with Regrant, I couldn't do it for long since I didn't have the HP to be able to keep three creatures locked up for more than a few seconds with the crits.
WHO said anything about soloing BL S2 just to prove the usefulness of Regrant? Thank God I'm not crazy enough to waste my time and effort just to suicide myself in style, not just yet. It doesn't even matter what type you are soloing with. I bet majority of techers like myself are too busy running Bladed Legacy with parties where they actually appreciate the role of techers and the support they bring with, and I can even hold my own in Magashi battle with Regrant's blow away effect that contributes to the team effort. Of course more techers in the party means more effective Regrant gets if they know what they're doing.



Please stop spewing BS until you've done it yourself. You have no idea how a techer works Bladed Legacy so stop pretending as if you do.
You dare start speaking out of line like this just because you can solo BL S2 and it makes you the only techer playing this game and all other techer's perspectives become pure BS? I suggest that you get off your high horse once in a while and don't expect anyone to follow thru your krap load of BS lecturing you seem to put up so frequently.



Again, stating nonsense. Nos techs, as with every other tech, are completely situational, as you mention. ...
just amazing how long you can go on & on lecturing in response to my original 2 line sentence, this is truely waste of forum space really, I can't help but am inclined to respectfully suggest that you don't do this too often. All it does is elaborate page load on my original point proving that Nos balls are mostly situational than any other spells.
Remember the original point again was that making such unfair comparison of these highly situational spell effects against lvl31 bullets or strike PAs effects just to support your opinion on how techers are in disadvantage than other classes is completely flawed and extremely pointless.



The horrible recovery time is including all spells. Even the fastest casting spell, zonde on a masterforce with har/smart on a madoog, has a recovery lag on par with a shotgun. They only get worse from there. The majority of spells that you use have about the same cast speed as a laser cannon on a fortegunner without the creature penetration. When you use a laser cannon, do you stand in one spot the whole time or do you constantly have to readjust where you are facing after each shot.
shotgun and laser cannon can only achieve maximum damage output if all targets are nicely lined up horizontally or vertically facing the gunner and it's not easy to put yourself in perfect position every time against constantly moving targets, and you do need to reposition frequently by strafing in order to target the maximum possible hits. Meanwhile, Ra spells can repeatedly nuke a set number of targets bunched up togather while caster is standing in one spot at all times so it more than makes up for a bit longer recovery time in this comparison.



You do not have full control of nos techs. Even if you press and let go of the button immediately, you are still locked into the casting animation. ...

Noszonde and nosmegid stay locked onto a dead creature until their body disappears, so your example doesn't make much sense to me. ...

Cards don't lock onto a new target. If the target dies before the card reaches them, they will fall....
You seem to have been totally lost here why the Nos ball example was even brought up in the 1st place and how it's related to your original rant on 'horrible move recovery time'. You're just stating the obvious that all other techers should know already and yet you don't seem to quite see why there has to be minimum recovery time and why the nature of auto home in projectile mechanics is designed the way it is, and thus you fail to see any improvements that can be made to the current system and the problems that comes along with it. At this point, I can't expect you to see any usefulness the Nos balls had even if there were any, nor could I make blind eyes see since I don't go around doing Jesus to anyone.

[Magus_84]

Except even those techs that supposedly "excel" against single targets still fall way, way behind in comparison to any attack that can hit more than one hitbox.

The "100% hit rate" doesn't make up for the fact that they are still unfairly disadvantged against both Dark element enemies and anything that's not a 5-member group of small or medium sized enemies.

Stating any number of circular arguments and impossible-to-parse sentences really doesn't change those two things.

Which, when you get down to it, are the main reason for this topic.

[Poppaspanx]

I gotta say, as much as I love fighter, I really love force too. I'd really like to see some improvements to the Force in the future.

As for gunner, I've never tried one before.

[desturel]

like grenade matters which is the slowest and worst targeting range wep,

WTF? Are you serious?

You state that nos techs are fine with how slow they cast and then come back with "grenades are too slow to take seriously". You do know that you have the same mobility with a grenade launcher as a techer casting a ra tech? You do know that you can get 3/4 grenade shoots in before a Jabroga is finished.

Did you also know that grenades shoot about three times in the space of one nos tech cast?

Did you know that a grenade launcher bullet can rival or beat Jabroga on a multitarget creature/boss such as De Ragan, Alterazgoug, Mother Brain, Dulk Fakis (first and second form), Zoal Goug, and De Ragnus?

Did you know that a good 90% of Gunmasters I've meet over the course of lightning carnival have stated that they would rather have Grenades than laser cannons (which I think is silly since Lasers are more general situation tools, while grenades are specialty weapons.)

How can you argue that techs are fast enough to get stuff done and grenades are too slow when grenades shoot faster than most of the techs that techers have. Ra techs, Nos techs, Megiverse, Gi techs, heck even gi-resta on a fortetecher (although it is a bit slower than giresta on an acrotecher/masterforce).

Please justify your comment.


shotgun still needs to be up close to the target for point blank multi-hit damages.

Holy hell! You state that only melee can hit multiple targets, I give examples of multi target gunner damage and that's the best response you can give me. Your statement was that melee is the only thing that could do multi-target damage because of the requirement to be in close proximity. I came up with two bullet examples that can do multi-target damage. You state that one of the weapons suck and the other you have to be close in to use.

Shotguns can be used from a distance and still hit multiple targets. They won't do max damage, but they have the ability to hit multiple targets on the same creature/boss without any problems. You can hit mother brain's arms without any problems with all shotgun bullets from a distance. You can hit all spots on all of the dragon and two headed dragon bosses with it. You can even lay into the side of Omna/Dimma with it if you wanted to waste damage (rifle/twin handguns are obviously better for those bosses).

Not only that, but I just gave two examples. Every gun that can shoot more than one bullet can hit multiple targets on the same creature or even multiple creatures. This includes twin handguns and crossbow.

So which is it? Do those weapons hit multiple targets on the same creature or do they not? It's a really simple question.


After Jabroga hits on any dragonoid boss you will likely get stomped flat on ground and ran over while Dam or Gi spells already excels at doing massive damage to multiple creatures up close, there are other technics that do better job of dealing most damage on a single creature already.

Grenades destroy any dragon boss. Shotguns do not have to be used point blank on a dragon. Position yourself to the side of the dragon at a decent distance and fire away. The shotgun will hit more than one target. In fact you can hit Alterazgoug in the face with a proper element shotgun and do more damage than you would with a rifle, twin handguns, or definitely a laser cannon. Besides all of that, gunners have more than enough HP to be able to take a stomp from a dragon boss anyway. They aren't made of glass.

Also your transition from "shotguns suck on bosses" to "dam and gi techs rock on Badira" is hilarious. How about equating how well those techs work on a boss. You should equate a techers main three "boss killers", diga, foie and nosdiga, to shotguns. Ignoring the fact that you don't have opposite element damage for most of the bosses in the game, Nosdiga, the best damage out of those three, doesn't even work against two of the three electric bosses. Once Maggas drops the bottom half, nosdiga can't hit anything. Nosdiga can't hit mother brain unless her arms smash down. Even after taking that into account, a shotgun will out damage nosdiga on zoalgoug. A fire rifle will beat foie on De Rol Le. Even Plasma hit on a neuman female guntecher can beat noszonde on Dimma in terms of damage per second, let alone Plasma shot or Twin plasma on a fortegunner/gunmaster.


if you can't handle MF due to its lower HP then maybe it's better to go back to FT or AT, after all MF wasn't designed to replace other techer types, just like FM can't replace other fighter types.

I can handle Masterforce just fine. The fact that you claim a lack of HP is a balancing feature is ridiculous.


it means that where techers are lacking in 'versatility', 100% hit rate makes up for it, and it doesn't always have to do anything with how fast they kill or do most damage in the party.

100% hit rate except when they miss. Lets go over this again:

1) Most Techs do not lock on.
2) The techs that can lock on all have draw backs (noszonde/megid slow recovery time. Nosdiga's inability to home in with all targets from a distance and lack of mobility)
3) Techs slower casting times mean that when you do miss, it takes you longer to recover and reposition. This is especially crucial with dam techs. If a dam tech misses, or even if a dam tech hits once and then the creatures go around it or through it, you need to reposition to use it again. All Gi techs flinch creatures backwards, meaning if the creatures don't die in the space of a few Gi techs (or get frozen in the case of Gi barta), you will have to reposition yourself to cast them again. Thank goodness for SEED Express and small enclosed areas where you can hit all of the enemies without them having any place to flinch out of the way.

It's not about how fast they kill or doing the most damage, it's about you not knowing, or not noticing, the fact that techs do miss.


are you saying that a techer can't pop trimates while managing to juggle around a few Magashis in the corner?

No, you can't pop a trimate while using any hold tech. With the exception of noszonde/megid, as soon as you let go of the button, hold techs stop casting. You use the trimate and you have to cast again. It's the same as if you were using a machine gun (without the glitch of course), as soon as you stop holding down the button, it stops. Unlike a machine gun however, the recast time on Regrant will allow Magashi to get up and hit you, which, for many techer classes, is a OHKO. The best techer classes to use on Magashi are Wartecher and Acrotecher. Jellen is extremely efficient when fighting him and having cannon fodder that can take a hit (Bruce, Ethan and Laia are better than Leo, Tonnio, or Tylor as their ice armor is useless against Magashi) is also important. Regrant is effective, without being overpowered and you have enough HP to take a hit. Also having access to Rising Strike or Hikai Shuha-zan in an emergency is a great fall back.

Until you've soloed Bladed Legacy as a masterforce, I don't want you trying to tell me what is and isn't effective on Magashi. You don't know. All of your amazing group play strategies and misconceptions will fly out of the window.



I'm sure I have done both in the party and it was far more effective to be a techer than a fighter.

There are missions where it is easier to be a techer, but very few missions where it is more effective to be a techer. In most cases, it's a matter of the boss and not the actual mission itself. Finishing Awoken Serpent solo can be done faster as a masterforce than a fighmaster, but only because they can't hit De Rol Le until he docks. Same with Dark Falz. The Dark God is a relatively techer friendly mission (especially since megid can be reduced to zero on a techer in The Dark God S since the creatures are so low level).

Any other mission that doesn't have a run away and stay away boss can be done more effectively as a fighmaster.


WHO said anything about soloing BL S2 just to prove the usefulness of Regrant?

You are the one who stated it was the best thing for Bladed Legacy. I gave an example. I have soloed Bladed Legacy. Regrant is great to lock up one Magashi. Probably the best thing in the game for it. But once you have two or three you just don't have the HP to be able to handle three of them.


Thank God I'm not crazy enough to waste my time and effort just to suicide myself in style, not just yet.

It's not suicide. When you solo Bladed Legacy, the Magashi don't teleport all over the place. They come from one location and don't magically reappear behind you. Because of this, you can get into the bottom left corner and pick them off as they run up. The worst thing you have to deal with are the foie, rafoie and the spinning tornado attack. Most of the other attacks, you can dodge or repel with regrant. Notice I say "repel", not lock up. Barta or Zonde are the main sources of damage. Regrant is to keep them off of your back. NPCs are fodder that stand infront of you and absorb damage while you do your damage.

You only need four weapons to do it too. Here's the setup:

TCSM Barta, Deband
Wand Regrant, Giresta
TCSM Jellen, foie
Wand Regrant, Giresta

Foie CAN catch magashi on fire, but it is very rare (not worth the time. You just want to use foie until Jellen is on all of the magashi. Then you switch to barta to hit all of them at once, use regrant to knock them away and giresta to revive your cannon fodder. You do not need to have matched elemental pairs on barta or foie since magashi is a dark creature. There is no help from having an elemental modifier. I mainly do it because I'm use to that particular setup. You could just throw barta and jellen together and leave foie out of it totally.


It doesn't even matter what type you are soloing with. I bet majority of techers like myself are too busy running Bladed Legacy with parties where they actually appreciate the role of techers and the support they bring with, and I can even hold my own in Magashi battle with Regrant's blow away effect that contributes to the team effort. Of course more techers in the party means more effective Regrant gets if they know what they're doing.

In a full party, it doesn't matter what you use on Magashi. As long as there are more party members than Magashi on the screen, you are free to cast resta, giresta and jellen for the entire match if you want to. Chances are good, that the most you will have to deal with is when a magashi mysteriously teleports behind you and hits you in the back.

You can even make a simpler strategy with two techer. One techer locks magashi up with Regrant while the other constantly casts resta and jellen. You tell the other techer when you rod is running low on PP and you swap regrant/resta duties.


You dare start speaking out of line like this just because you can solo BL S2 and it makes you the only techer playing this game and all other techer's perspectives become pure BS? I suggest that you get off your high horse once in a while and don't expect anyone to follow thru your krap load of BS lecturing you seem to put up so frequently.

LOL, I dare speak out of line against a person who can't handle doing a mission solo and needs other people to protect him, yet states that techers are perfectly fine as they are? What you are doing is playing a techer in a support situation. What we are talking about is using techer as a class that can handle any situation. If I'm running with a group, I don't need multi target damage. If I'm running with a group, it doesn't matter how much damage I can output in relation to another class or character. It's when you start running solo that these problems start to occur and get magnified.

Also what you describe is an acrotecher, not a masterforce. If you are supporting other people and locking magashi up in Bladed Legacy as you state, you are either playing Fortetecher or Acrotecher.

"It doesn't even matter what type you are soloing with. I bet majority of techers like myself are too busy running Bladed Legacy with parties where they actually appreciate the role of techers and the support they bring with"

That means that you and I aren't even talking on the same level. I'm talking on the perspective of a masterforce where techs is all we have to get through a mission. We don't have to "role of techers and the support they bring with", we have "you do tech damage or you do no damage". You are failing at making an accurate comparison.


just amazing how long you can go on & on lecturing in response to my original 2 line sentence, this is truely waste of forum space really, I can't help but am inclined to respectfully suggest that you don't do this too often. All it does is elaborate page load on my original point proving that Nos balls are mostly situational than any other spells.

If you don't want me to respond to an inane statement don't make an inane statement. If you don't want me to go into more detail, don't provoke me by proving examples full of crap. My posts are elaborate because I don't make sweeping general statements without backing them up with actual game proof. Something that you fail to do constantly.

And as for nos balls being situational, I stated that they were the worst form of damage in all but one situation. Vanda Mehra on Awoken Serpent or flying bosses as a master force. Any other class in any other situation can do better damage with something other than a nos spell. Bust out the longbow as a fortetecher. Break out the two handguns as an acrotecher. Pull out the saber as a wartecher. You'll do more damage and faster in most of any other situation than relying on Noszonde/megid. (lol rabarta on Kudetob, Zoona, and Shagreece is better at killing than a nostech)


Remember the original point again was that making such unfair comparison of these highly situational spell effects against lvl31 bullets or strike PAs effects just to support your opinion on how techers are in disadvantage than other classes is completely flawed and extremely pointless.

How is it unfair to make a comparison of a level 31 tech to a level 31 bullet or a level 31 photon art? They are all level 31.


shotgun and laser cannon can only achieve maximum damage output if all targets are nicely lined up horizontally or vertically facing the gunner and it's not easy to put yourself in perfect position every time against constantly moving targets, and you do need to reposition frequently by strafing in order to target the maximum possible hits. Meanwhile, Ra spells can repeatedly nuke a set number of targets bunched up togather while caster is standing in one spot at all times so it more than makes up for a bit longer recovery time in this comparison.

Except that the targets can run around causing your ra tech to miss. Your example assumes Caves of Ice/Sakura Blast level enemies who will just stand around or walk into your techs. Why do you think it is that gunners can finish Sleeping Warriors faster than techers if your theory on how efficient ra techs are compared to Lasers and Shotguns holds true?


You seem to have been totally lost here why the Nos ball example was even brought up in the 1st place and how it's related to your original rant on 'horrible move recovery time'. You're just stating the obvious that all other techers should know already and yet you don't seem to quite see why there has to be minimum recovery time and why the nature of auto home in projectile mechanics is designed the way it is, and thus you fail to see any improvements that can be made to the current system and the problems that comes along with it. At this point, I can't expect you to see any usefulness the Nos balls had even if there were any, nor could I make blind eyes see since I don't go around doing Jesus to anyone.

Okay Jesus, so you don't have time to make my blind eyes see, turn water to wine, or make bread and fish to feed the masses, but you should have time to give me an example of how a nos tech can be more useful than a rifle for the knockdown effect while taking the move's cast and recovery time into account.

[RemiusTA]

^^^

Jesus christ.

I have to say he's justified though.




It seriously seems like techer-only players are BAWWWing because they fixed fighters and didn't fix techers, not because of any kind of balancing issue. If it was really about balance they'd be calling for the gunner nerfs just as hard, if not harder.

No, its because gunners arent overpowered, they just get really good at what they're supposed to. It isnt a crime to make a character useful, but to completely ether the usefulness of everyone else in the room? Gunners are amazing at endgame level, but i dont feel they had any injustice done to them.



JA in general is just fine. Certain moves (you know of what I speak) need to be nerfed, but not the entire system. Techers should do more damage, but not like vanilla PSU where they owned everything. Buff the damage on techs a little, but not to JA levels or you risk it going back to "lolz u fighter nubs suck I tech and kill everything" like it was before.You talk like they ruled the planet or something. Its not that we "owned everything", we just didn't suck. Larger enemies and a couple bosses still kicked our asses, and there still were missions that were extremely difficult to complete.


-----
Now i have to reply to Hypershot's post. They made me laugh way more than they should have...



like grenade matters which is the slowest and worst targeting range wep, shotgun still needs to be up close to the target for point blank multi-hit damages. After Jabroga hits on any dragonoid boss you will likely get stomped flat on ground and ran over while Dam or Gi spells already excels at doing massive damage to multiple creatures up close, there are other technics that do better job of dealing most damage on a single creature already.
Are you seriously implying dam/Gi spells are more effective on dragon bosses than Jarbroga? I dont believe i can take anything you say seriously after this. No single technic can outdamage a Photon Art. Ever. You are out of your fucking mind.




it means that where techers are lacking in 'versatility', 100% hit rate makes up for it, and it doesn't always have to do anything with how fast they kill or do most damage in the party.ARE YOU SERIOUS. Forces are definately the most versitile characters in the game (arsenal of attacks for every element, situation, range, playstyle, and then some), its just that none of their technics are good at anything they're supposed to be.

If you've ever USED a techer before then you would know how retarded you sound. But reading through the rest of your posts, its quite obvious you haven't. (although you try your hardest to sound like you know what your talking about.)



just amazing how long you can go on & on lecturing in response to my original 2 line sentence, this is truely waste of forum space really, I can't help but am inclined to respectfully suggest that you don't do this too often. All it does is elaborate page load on my original point proving that Nos balls are mostly situational than any other spells.
Remember the original point again was that making such unfair comparison of these highly situational spell effects against lvl31 bullets or strike PAs effects just to support your opinion on how techers are in disadvantage than other classes is completely flawed and extremely pointless.Wow.

So, you're saying its unfair to compare Lv31 Bullets/Photon Arts to Lv31 technics? You've just proven the point of the topic. The flaw in your arguement is so pathetically large its quite sad really. You're under the impression our logic is "unfairly positioned" because Lv31 striking and melee skills (which are all just as situational as Technics, they dont have multiple version for no reason.) are so much better than Lv31 technics that comparing the two is unfair?


Well fuck, what have we been arguing about all this time, might i ask? Who's side are you trying to defend here?


So, im a force that is only proficient at 3 different weapon types and relies on Technics to battle. I decide to spend my well-earned Photon Fragments (75-50) on these Nos- Technics, yet for more than DOUBLE the price of something like Majjara, im spending my money on a technic that should not be compared to skills becuase it's "too situational"?

Get the eff outta here. THe only reason you view it that way is because deep down, both you and I know how much it sucks. The only technics that are worth their weight in Fragments are Megid, Nosdiga and Giresta.



Im not even going to respond to the rest of your post, because it was (no offense) full of sh*t. You go on complaining that Lasers and Grenade launchers somehow are inferior to Ra technics because of "positioning and recovery time" coupled with "100% hit rate".

Like we said, if you've ever PLAYED a techer, you would know how retarded you sound. These are just not the kind of observations any techer would make, regardless of how optimistic or biased they were trying to be.



Oh and let me throw a "no offense" in here, i dont want this topic to be closed because i believe its what this game really needs, regardless if only the US/EU players are hearing it.

[HyperShot-X-]

The only balance techers are looking for is a multi-hit spell. I can't figure out what is so hard for you to understand about this. Techers have no boss killer and no large creature killer. That is the lack of balance we are talking about.
...
What we can't get around is why we have nothing to take out a large creature (for example... every boss in the game).
just what makes you think that any techer has to be on par with other class designed just for the most damage dealing in game? Why is it so hard to just accept the techer as is just like some of the most achieved and respected techers in the game?
There are some large creatures like Jarba for ex. that are as much pain in the behind to fighters as techers.

I'm actually curious to see how bad techers are really in the actual game setup, prove it if you can, FF Vs. FT or FM Vs. MF with maxed out settings to see who drops De ragnus faster in Duel in the Ruins each on their own, fighter using Jabroga only and techer with Nosdiga, Nos balls or longbow. Just prove how much difference we are talking about, then I'll believe you.



The fact that, no other class has to compensate for the lack of opposite element damage. Nor, have they completely retracted the use of two of you photon arts for balance issues (Dizas and Rentis will never be released). Nor have piss poor HP as a "bonus" as claimed by HyperShot and other people who have obviously never played techer. Those should all be clues.
lower HP for MF as a "bonus" says WHO? Load of BS lecturing wasn't enough for you, now you make words to put in my mouth as you see fit? If you don't understand the meaning of word 'trade-off' then go do wikitionary yourself.



I'm not asking for fighters or gunners to be nerfed. I'm asking for multi-target damage for techers. I haven't said "remove Jabroga and Majarra", I'm saying "give rafoie the ability to multi-target hit".
as if lvl31 Ra techs weren't making Gi techs useless already as claimed by someone else?



You don't even need to buff tech damage in my opinion. Just have multi-target damage.
i think you have better chance to see Dizas or Rentis released than to hope for that to happen any time soon in future.

[BIGGIEstyle]

*cut-in* A NEW CHALLENGER HAS ARRIVED!


just what makes you think that any techer has to be on par with other class designed just for the most damage dealing in game?
Because Masterforce has next to no support ability. Masterforce is intended as the game's big nuke type and there's no reason why the big nuke type shouldn't match up to the big dumb fighter type.



I'm actually curious to see how bad techers are really in the actual game setup, prove it if you can, FF Vs. FT or FM Vs. MF with maxed out settings to see who drops De ragnus faster in Duel in the Ruins each on their own, fighter using Jabroga only and techer with Nosdiga, Nos balls or longbow. Just prove how much difference we are talking about, then I'll believe you.
As I type this Autumn is doing just that. Her Female Newman is capped in Fighmaster, and was previously a masterforce. She'll be using Nosdiga FYI, and this should be a sound test seeing as it's the SAME CHARACTER doing each run. Once she puts up pics I think I speak for everyone saying that you should drop your horseshit argument because you don't know what you're talking about.

It's plain to see that even if you play a techer you aren't very good at it, don't do it on your main character, or just plain don't see the BS you spew when trying to make an argument. You try to blindly defend something that you yourself have stated shouldn't be compared to other types. WHY NOT? Why shouldn't techer types be just as damaging (either outright or via DPS) than a fighter?

[Mewnie]

And a newman fighter is STILL better than a cast/beast techer, due to how borked the ATP/TP scaling works.

Nos techs, aside from Diga, are good for a laugh. I leveled up Noszonde, hoping it'd get better, but it's too damned slow to do the job it's supposed to.

I got disgusted with melee after they boosted the damage. JA just pushed it even farther into WTF territory. Before, a fighter had to balance PA choices out, and there was more preference towards attacks that had control elements (knockup, blowback, massive stagger) Now it's just MAJARRA MAJARRA JABROGA DPS DPS OHMYGODMYDICKISHAAARRRRDDDDDD

Oh, and while having proper elements is nice, saying that you are a terrible player and should be dragged out into the street, and beaten with knotted logs for using a fire weapon on a non-ice enemy is borderline retarded. The game is trivial enough as it is without poopsockers stroking thier epeens over ones and zeros.

[Hiero_Glyph]

For starters, why not just remove Scape Dolls and buff items from the NPC, and make healing items more expensive? This would make techers more useful in a party without having to adjust any of their offensive traits. The Masterforce would still be pitiful however.

Also, there should be an option to choose when to use a Scape Doll instead of having it done automatically. This would make Giresta more useful, even on a MF.

[Gunslinger-08]

I got disgusted with melee after they boosted the damage. JA just pushed it even farther into WTF territory. Before, a fighter had to balance PA choices out, and there was more preference towards attacks that had control elements (knockup, blowback, massive stagger) Now it's just MAJARRA MAJARRA JABROGA DPS DPS OHMYGODMYDICKISHAAARRRRDDDDDD


Along with Reimus's points, I pretty much agree with all of this.

[HyperShot-X-]

As I type this Autumn is doing just that. Her Female Newman is capped in Fighmaster, and was previously a masterforce. She'll be using Nosdiga FYI, and this should be a sound test seeing as it's the SAME CHARACTER doing each run. Once she puts up pics I think I speak for everyone saying that you should drop your horseshit argument because you don't know what you're talking about.
pics won't prove anything, pls record the whole De Ragnus fight from start to finish for each type then post the video. According to desturel's statement that techers got absolutely 'no boss killer' and 'nothing to take out any boss in the game', I would expect to see a fighter kills it at least twice faster than a techer, and I don't think that's expecting too much if anyone wants to prove his original statement that a techer has no chance to stand in its own against any boss in the game. Pls do it.

[cwTopCat]

For starters, why not just remove Scape Dolls and buff items from the NPC, and make healing items more expensive? This would make techers more useful in a party without having to adjust any of their offensive traits. The Masterforce would still be pitiful however.

Also, there should be an option to choose when to use a Scape Doll instead of having it done automatically. This would make Giresta more useful, even on a MF.

I ,also, think that they should make it so you can only carry 10 of each healling item max and change the rate that they heal by a %. Like monomates is 20%, dimate is 40%, and trimate is 100%. They should also give MF lvl 20 or 30 buffs. Then all techer types will be more wanted in parties, cuz they will be the only ones that can boost stats.

[BIGGIEstyle]

pics won't prove anything, pls record the whole De Ragnus fight from start to finish for each type then post the video. According to desturel's statement that techers got absolutely 'no boss killer' and 'nothing to take out any boss in the game', I would expect to see a fighter kills it at least twice faster than a techer, and I don't think that's expecting too much if anyone wants to prove his original statement that a techer has no chance to stand in its own against any boss in the game. Pls do it.
Autumn plays on a laptop that can't handle video capture progs while running PSU, if you'd like to find someone who can record her runs to idle through them with her, feel free to.

We could waste hours trying to convince you but it's clear from your response you're just a pigheaded jerk who like facilitating an argument he knows nothing about.

But if you're prepared to watch your side of this debate fall apart, find me a PC/PS2 player who has something to record her run with and we'll be MORE than happy to shut you up.

Oh, btw... She killed it FOUR TIMES faster as a FM. 1 Minute clear time in FM, 4 minutes in MF.

[mll]

And a newman fighter is STILL better than a cast/beast techer, due to how borked the ATP/TP scaling works.



A newman fighter is probably better than a newman techer too.
lol
You wonder if ST have any idea how crappy tech damage is, seriously how can they not know.

[autumn]

Alright HyperShot I took your little challenge because I'm kinda bored in PSU and needed something to do for a laugh. While this isn't exactly what you requested it should bring the point home pretty clear.

Character: Idalia T'Shanen F Newman
Idalia has been my main since I started PSU about 2 years ago. Up until a bit before the Mission Carnival Idalia was a pure techer, first FT then MF. I decided to switch to FM when I got tired of getting OHKO'd all the time in MF to see if it would be better even on a newman. And so it was. I will note here that my MF is only level 8 (although the stats gained per level in MF are almost negligable) while my FM is 20. And yes, boss was killed with nothing but nosdiga and jabroga.

Masterforce set-up:
Serafi-senba 30% Light
Har/Quick
Freeze/Resist
Psycho Wand 7/7
- Nosdiga 42
- Radiga 41
- Diga 42
- Gidiga 34 (for element % bonus)
Okarod 7/7
- Ramegid 42
- Megid 35
- Nosmegid 36
- Megiverse 13 (the last 2 for elemental % bonus)
Coni 9/9 (paired with resta/reverser wand)
- Radiga 41
- Diga 42
Delpi 4/10 (paired with resta/reverser wand)
- Ramegid 42
- Megid 35

Time at Boss
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/IdaliaTShanen/Time%20Attacks/psu20090322_183053_020.jpg

End Time
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/IdaliaTShanen/Time%20Attacks/psu20090322_183525_021.jpg

Fighmaster set-up:
Serafi-senba 30% Light
Orpa/Mind
Lumirous/Kaos Knight
Freeze/Resist
Mugunruk 0/10 32% :ground: and 36% :dark:
- Dus Majarra 50
Bil De Axe 5/10 36% :ground:
- Anga Jabroga 50
Okanoh 0/10 38% :dark:
- Anga Jabroga 50
Double Agito 2/10 36% :ground:
- Spiral Dance 42
Sweet Death 2/10 42% :dark:
- Gravity Dance 45

Time at Boss:
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/IdaliaTShanen/Time%20Attacks/psu20090322_184928_023.jpg

End Time:
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo190/IdaliaTShanen/Time%20Attacks/psu20090322_185104_024.jpg

A F newman, which is FAR better suited to teching then to melee clears this faster as a melee fighter then a techer. In addition to clearing the mission faster I also went through less scape dolls, healing items, and photon charges as a FM. I'm certain you'll come back to this with some sort of BS response though so I'm glad I enjoyed this because I probably wasted my time.


EDIT: Also to compare stats with all my equipment on:
Masterforce TP (with psycho wand and har/quick) 3135
Fighmaster ATP (with bil de axe and l/kk) 3416

[mll]

Wow, it nearly doubled your run time.

You should send that post off to ST, it sums up the whole damage problem nicely.

[Mewnie]

A newman fighter is probably better than a newman techer too.
lol
You wonder if ST have any idea how crappy tech damage is, seriously how can they not know.

They most likely know.

And don't care.

[Juza]

They should also give MF lvl 20 or 30 buffs.

As a WT, please note that I mean the following in only the most polite and respectful way:

Die in a satellite crashing into Palma.

*twitch* You're not stealing my slight usefulness to parties without a fight. >:|

[RemiusTA]

just what makes you think that any techer has to be on par with other class designed just for the most damage dealing in game? Why is it so hard to just accept the techer as is just like some of the most achieved and respected techers in the game?
There are some large creatures like Jarba for ex. that are as much pain in the behind to fighters as techers.

Even the most respected and achieved techers in this game have personally acknowledged that their class is severely crippled in more areas than any class should be.



I'm actually curious to see how bad techers are really in the actual game setup, prove it if you can, FF Vs. FT or FM Vs. MF with maxed out settings to see who drops De ragnus faster in Duel in the Ruins each on their own, fighter using Jabroga only and techer with Nosdiga, Nos balls or longbow. Just prove how much difference we are talking about, then I'll believe you.....Are you mother fucking serious.




as if lvl31 Ra techs weren't making Gi techs useless already as claimed by someone else?Do you fail to comprehend the sheer amount of ironic failure you output when you make stupid remarks like this?

Seriously, you're unraveling your OWN argument.



i think you have better chance to see Dizas or Rentis released than to hope for that to happen any time soon in future.This is like the only thing anyone can actually relate with.


Seriously Hypershot-X, you don't know what your talking about. No matter how much you think you do, you do not. Please stop embarrassing yourself.


----


For starters, why not just remove Scape Dolls and buff items from the NPC, and make healing items more expensive? This would make techers more useful in a party without having to adjust any of their offensive traits. The Masterforce would still be pitiful however.

Also, there should be an option to choose when to use a Scape Doll instead of having it done automatically. This would make Giresta more useful, even on a MF.Yes for scapedoll removal, no for everything else. Self-buffing items are useful in their own respects, but any proficient Fortetecher / Acrotecher is easily more useful than -ides. Prices dont really need to change either, except for perhaps a money sink.

They dont need to cripple the game to make techers better, they need to improve techers. Like i said, they already messed with one side of the equation, they dont need to screw with another -- making random changes to prices and gameplay mechanics that have nothing to do with techers really wont help the game.

On Hunters and Rangers defense, 20 Mates are acceptable. Soloing harder missions calls for tons of healing, and since Hunters/Rangers no longer have resta at their disposal to save their asses, mates are more than acceptable. The enemies in PSO couldn't combo or effeciently jump you from a distance, so since you take in way more damage in PSU, holding 60 types of mates is useful.


Although, i have no clue why Scapedolls are sold in shops on this game. They definately should be something you have to synth to obtain, not just buy in bulk. Giresta is still useful regardless, though.

Besides, i use Mates more than i use Resta on my own force. They're far quicker, and alot safer to use in the middle of battle than resta thanks to the lag. I only really use resta when i want to heal someone else in the party.


The support side of Forces really doesnt need any adjusting, only their ability to not suck in combat. As proven by autumn, a Female Newman Masterforce, the most POWERFUL and COMBAT-SPECIFIC type of force you can possibly have, loses to a Female Newman Fighmaster, the absolute WEAKEST type of Fighmaster you can have.

There is absolutely no way to justify that.



P.S. BTW Autumn, you should seriously send that report to Sonic Team, because it's actually quite pathetic how the results turned out.

The only reason they came out so closely is because she was a F Newman MF. If she was another race/sex, or if the Fighmaster was anything other than a newman, it would be even worse.

[mll]

Yes for scapedoll removal, no for everything else. Self-buffing items are useful in their own respects, but any proficient Fortetecher / Acrotecher is easily more useful than -ides. Prices dont really need to change either, except for perhaps a money sink.

They dont need to cripple the game to make techers better, they need to improve techers. Like i said, they already messed with one side of the equation, they dont need to screw with another -- making random changes to prices and gameplay mechanics that have nothing to do with techers really wont help the game.

On Hunters and Rangers defense, 20 Mates are acceptable. Soloing harder missions calls for tons of healing, and since Hunters/Rangers no longer have resta at their disposal to save their asses, mates are more than acceptable. The enemies in PSO couldn't combo or effeciently jump you from a distance, so since you take in way more damage in PSU, holding 60 types of mates is useful.


Although, i have no clue why Scapedolls are sold in shops on this game. They definately should be something you have to synth to obtain, not just buy in bulk. Giresta is still useful regardless, though.

The problem is that a Hunter / Ranger soloing a run can easily manage on the mates they find, you rarely have to buy mates. Then you can grab a GH-450 to drag your mate costs down even further. Also most enemies are dying in one / two combos (or a few shots from a laser cannon) so you just don't get hit that often.
It really does have a huge effect on the support side of techers.
When aoi started it was just so much easier to make money that the cost of mates (and consumables in general) became insignificant. AoI crippled a lot of game mechanics.

[desturel]

They most likely know.

And don't care.

I think everyone except Hypershot realizes this. Well, everyone who plays or has played techer seriously.

[RemiusTA]

The problem is that a Hunter / Ranger soloing a run can easily manage on the mates they find, you rarely have to buy mates. Then you can grab a GH-450 to drag your mate costs down even further. Also most enemies are dying in one / two combos (or a few shots from a laser cannon) so you just don't get hit that often.
It really does have a huge effect on the support side of techers.
When aoi started it was just so much easier to make money that the cost of mates (and consumables in general) became insignificant. AoI crippled a lot of game mechanics.


Well, depending on the mission that sways a bit. If people could only hold 10 mates, it would cripple them pretty badly while soloing a hard mission. Forces would instantly become more useful, but then also would become alot more burdened. I personally enjoy it when i dont have to restabot my teammates because they're too incompetent to carry / use mates when they need one.

That more just comes back to PSU being too easy now. Its pretty obvious that Rangers and Hunters are at the bar they should be. The game is keeping up, but far too slowly for the players.

If the missions played were difficult enough, Force support would easily start to glow.

[BIGGIEstyle]

pics won't prove anything, pls record the whole De Ragnus fight from start to finish for each type then post the video. According to desturel's statement that techers got absolutely 'no boss killer' and 'nothing to take out any boss in the game', I would expect to see a fighter kills it at least twice faster than a techer, and I don't think that's expecting too much if anyone wants to prove his original statement that a techer has no chance to stand in its own against any boss in the game. Pls do it.

Strike my previous response. If her pics aren't enough to prove the point I'll gladly take the videos myself. I got a buddy bringing a copy of fraps over tomorrow, you'll have your video then.

I suggest you start soaking your argument in something flavorful. It'll be much better for you when you eat your own words.

[autumn]

Force support being useful still doesn't rectify the absolute suck that tech damage is though. I don't want things to get to the point where the support is necessary because the last thing I want to do on a techer is be the restabot. If the changes were made to make techer support needed masterforces everywhere would still be unwelcome, die in one hit and slow down mission runs T_T

[RemiusTA]

I suggest you start soaking your argument in something flavorful. It'll be much better for you when you eat your own words.

I dont know why i didn't get that line the first time i read it, but i laughed when i did lol




Force support being useful still doesn't rectify the absolute suck that tech damage is though. I don't want things to get to the point where the support is necessary because the last thing I want to do on a techer is be the restabot. If the changes were made to make techer support needed masterforces everywhere would still be unwelcome, die in one hit and slow down mission runs T_TMost definately. And thats why crippling the other classes' healing capabilities is not a fresh idea for our cause.

Last thing i want is to have raised a character up to be a lv150 Forteresta or Masterbot.

Glass Cannon? More like Glass Band-aid. No thank you.

[Rayokarna]

Well, things could be a whole lot worse. ST could have kept the whole Elemental Resistance from PSO, then you techers would really be in trouble.

[Magus_84]

Well, things could be a whole lot worse. ST could have kept the whole Elemental Resistance from PSO, then you techers would really be in trouble.

That's what makes this so annoying.

They had the balance (or at least as close as an online Phantasy Star will get to balance) somewhat working for a while. Then they screwed it up by overpowering melee. >_>

[HyperShot-X-]

Strike my previous response. If her pics aren't enough to prove the point I'll gladly take the videos myself. I got a buddy bringing a copy of fraps over tomorrow, you'll have your video then.

I suggest you start soaking your argument in something flavorful. It'll be much better for you when you eat your own words.
let me know when you do eventho Autumn's set up isn't quite convincing at all to me with MF lvl not even half maxed out with Nosdiga 42 and poor equipments compared to Jabroga lvl50. Surely there are better techers out there but no offense, nice try tho.

Btw, I seriuosly doubt how much dramatic improvement could be made to the outcome if they gave Ra techs multi-hitbox ability, would that even worth making Foi, Diga, & Nosdiga practically useless against boss?

[BIGGIEstyle]

let me know when you do eventho Autumn's set up isn't quite convincing at all to me with MF lvl not even half maxed out with Nosdiga 42 and poor equipments compared to Jabroga lvl50. Surely there are better techers out there but no offense, nice try tho.

Btw, I seriuosly doubt how much dramatic improvement could be made to the outcome if they gave Ra techs multi-hitbox ability, would that even worth making Foi, Diga, & Nosdiga practically useless against boss?

I figure it balances out. low level masterforce type level, and slightly underleveled tech on the best possible combination of race and type, compared to better PAs and type levels on the WORST possible combination of race and type.

I'll still make the videos to prove the point. masterforce levels and 8 levels on nosdiga aren't going to make an 80% difference in run time any that much closer.

Edit for second topic you addressed: Fighters don't use single hit-box attacks on multi-part bosses. Gunners don't use single hit-box attacks on multi-part bosses. Why the bloody hell should techers?

[autumn]

Using level 42 nosdiga and nothing else off of a 7/7 psycho wand, the best rod in the game, isn't a good enough set up to make a point? My jabroga is only 8 levels higher and my FM equipment is mediocre. You sir are a fucking idiot.

EDIT:

let me know when you do eventho Autumn's set up isn't quite convincing at all to me with MF lvl not even half maxed out with Nosdiga 42 and poor equipments compared to Jabroga lvl50. Surely there are better techers out there but no offense, nice try tho.

Btw, I seriuosly doubt how much dramatic improvement could be made to the outcome if they gave Ra techs multi-hitbox ability, would that even worth making Foi, Diga, & Nosdiga practically useless against boss?

WTF does my techer equipment have to do with my fighter PA levels?

[RemiusTA]

let me know when you do eventho Autumn's set up isn't quite convincing at all to me with MF lvl not even half maxed out with Nosdiga 42 and poor equipments compared to Jabroga lvl50. Surely there are better techers out there but no offense, nice try tho.


Do you have a techer? I would love to just call you ignorant and correct you instead of calling you fucking retarded, but you're giving me no choice here.

Autumn just pretty much hit the nail on the head, and you're still busy scrambling for the trump card you're never going to find. Just give up already kid, you do not know what you are talking about.

Please shut up.

[autumn]

I suppose its okay, this is te internets :wacko:

[Mewnie]

Ah, good ol' Photobucket :3

[Ruru]

wow. i know there are people that will not accept it when proven wrong but wow nonetheless this is just sad.

my MF 20 newman female lvl 150 with nosdiga at 50 on a 6/9 psychowand, takes 11-12 minutes to clear that mission. (no screens im on ps2) my AF 20 female cast 150 with capped bogga zubba (i know this isnt jabroga of FM but it proves a point) can clear that mission in 6-7 minutes (loading times on PS2 kill my run time so im sure i could go faster)

the fact is. a tech based class has absolutely no boss/large enemy killer. diga foie nosdiga. are ALL WE HAVE on these large enemies. the sad part is those 3 techs outdamage EVERY OTHER tech we have even on bosses of opposite element. its not fair to us techers that we have absolutely nothing to use on a boss to put us even remotely on par with a hunter/ranger.

giving us multihit boxes on a boss would help us keep up on damage if even a little bit. 1.5k or so ra tech on a boss x4/5 would help us deal a good 6-7.5k+ damage a second instead of the 2 or so k a second we pop out now with foie/diga or the 4.4k+ damage we get from nosdiga (which can ruin us since we have to get close to a boss to make sure all 3 snakes even lock on.

i dont get how anyone claiming to have leveled a techer job could deny that we lack in damage compared to the other types. it makes no sense that you could be so blind honestly.

this isnt some kind of an unjustified baw fest. its simple fact that techs get blown away by everything else.

dont even get me started on the horrible short stick that MF got compared to FM and GM. . . thats an entirely different can of worms.

[Sexy_Raine]

wow. i know there are people that will not accept it when proven wrong but wow nonetheless this is just sad.

my MF 20 newman female lvl 150 with nosdiga at 50 on a 6/9 psychowand, takes 11-12 minutes to clear that mission. (no screens im on ps2) my AF 20 female cast 150 with capped bogga zubba (i know this isnt jabroga of FM but it proves a point) can clear that mission in 6-7 minutes (loading times on PS2 kill my run time so im sure i could go faster)

the fact is. a tech based class has absolutely no boss/large enemy killer. diga foie nosdiga. are ALL WE HAVE on these large enemies. the sad part is those 3 techs outdamage EVERY OTHER tech we have even on bosses of opposite element. its not fair to us techers that we have absolutely nothing to use on a boss to put us even remotely on par with a hunter/ranger.

giving us multihit boxes on a boss would help us keep up on damage if even a little bit. 1.5k or so ra tech on a boss x4/5 would help us deal a good 6-7.5k+ damage a second instead of the 2 or so k a second we pop out now with foie/diga or the 4.4k+ damage we get from nosdiga (which can ruin us since we have to get close to a boss to make sure all 3 snakes even lock on.

i dont get how anyone claiming to have leveled a techer job could deny that we lack in damage compared to the other types. it makes no sense that you could be so blind honestly.

this isnt some kind of an unjustified baw fest. its simple fact that techs get blown away by everything else.

dont even get me started on the horrible short stick that MF got compared to FM and GM. . . thats an entirely different can of worms.

I was one only original techers left from 2006, and it's sad that I had to ditch it. Believe me I didn't want it to be this way. It doesn't have to do with being a "tier whore", it's more like hating feeling cheated. I will not accept a scrubby FM outdoing my 3000hrs of being a force, to prevent that I had no choice but to abuse Gunmaster. Although I've always had a gunner, now my only goal is to be an overpowered Gunmaster as a way getting even with PSU's flawed system. Though personally I enjoy gunner, the whole "play it for fun" factor is still there :)
Can't say the same for boring ass melee though
To sum it up, deep down inside I still enjoy techer, but I cannot accept AOTI's system for it.

[Ezodagrom]

Btw, I seriuosly doubt how much dramatic improvement could be made to the outcome if they gave Ra techs multi-hitbox ability, would that even worth making Foi, Diga, & Nosdiga practically useless against boss?
Yes, it would be worth making foie, diga and nosdiga "pratically useless" against bosses...Aren't spinning strike or gravity break (hunter single target skills) pratically useless against bosses compared to many other skills? ._.

In my opinion, they should:
- give ratechs, gitechs, noszonde and nosmegid the ability to hit multiple parts of big enemies.
- create more light element attack techs...like a light equivalent to foie (grants?), and some kind of ragrants and gigrants.
- increase Masterforce HP by around 15%. It would still have the lowest HP of all classes, but wouldn't be as bad as it is now (increasing from 85% to 100% HP mod at lvl 20, compared to FT that has 112% HP mod).

[darkante]

Yes, it would be worth making foie, diga and nosdiga "pratically useless" against bosses...Aren't spinning strike or gravity break (hunter single target skills) pratically useless against bosses compared to many other skills? ._.

In my opinion, they should:
- give ratechs, gitechs, noszonde and nosmegid the ability to hit multiple parts of big enemies.
- create more light element attack techs...like a light equivalent to foie (grants?), and some kind of ragrants and gigrants.
- increase Masterforce HP by around 15%. It would still have the lowest HP of all classes, but wouldn't be as bad as it is now (increasing from 85% to 100% HP mod at lvl 20, compared to FT that has 112% HP mod).

Now where is mah damzonde? =/

[Ezodagrom]

Now where is mah damzonde? =/
Well, in my personal opinion there should be a nosfoie, foieverse, refoie, nosbarta, bartaverse, rebarta, damzonde, zondeverse, rezonde, digaverse, rediga, grants, ragrants, gigrants, damgrants, nosgrants, grantsverse, gimegid and remegid, but I would be happy with just some light element options other than regrants. :>

Well, it's a bit unfair that hunters got some new skills and just attack with the release of aoti while rangers and forces didn't get any new bullets/techs. :<

[Cloudstrife xx]

here is alittle example what a masterforce can do these are not my videos
http://www.youtube.com/milranduil

[panzer_unit]

And i laughed my ass off at you thinking Phantasy Star Zero will be any better. Thats like saying "I CANT WAIT FOR PHANTASY STAR PORTABLE". You DO realize the same people are making these games, right? Until they learn why things get fucked up, they will never fix them. Sonic Team is not Capcom.

Actually MasterForce is a killer class in PS Portable, mostly thanks to having range mags.

[mll]

Some other company actually did PSP right? Alpha Systems or something.
The balance in that is a lot better but then they changed practically everything.

[Matic]

Actually MasterForce is a killer class in PS Portable, mostly thanks to having range mags.

Yeah, and they have decent melee to fall back on, if necessary. Not to mention knockback diga and gifoie, knockdown rabarta, and other effects I might not have seen yet.

I wonder how JP players feel about this. Mostly because I'm pretty sure none of our complaining will make much of a difference. :/

[Calsetes]

I can make this really really simple while possibly annoying a bunch of people:

Character imbalance occurred when someone said "Let's have multiple types / jobs / classes and multiple races!"

There you go - no class will ever be exactly balanced to another, no matter how close they come. Just like math, 5 = 5, not 4.9 with a repeating 9, not 5.1 with a repeating 1, only 5 (or the absolute value of -5, but since there's no "negative fortefighter" this is completely implausible).

Hooray math!


...As much as someone will inevitably disagree with me, you do have to admit I make a pretty good point about the bare bones of the argument.

[Matic]

Negative fortefighter? Now THAT sounds like one badass freakin' techer.
He'd probably fire diga as fast as rifle shots.

[Inazuma]

here is alittle example what a masterforce can do these are not my videos
http://www.youtube.com/milranduil

yep, even a perfect MF is terrible compared to FM. they are about 3 to 5 times worse, depending on the mission.


I can make this really really simple while possibly annoying a bunch of people:

Character imbalance occurred when someone said "Let's have multiple types / jobs / classes and multiple races!"

There you go - no class will ever be exactly balanced to another, no matter how close they come. Just like math, 5 = 5, not 4.9 with a repeating 9, not 5.1 with a repeating 1, only 5 (or the absolute value of -5, but since there's no "negative fortefighter" this is completely implausible).

Hooray math!


...As much as someone will inevitably disagree with me, you do have to admit I make a pretty good point about the bare bones of the argument.
so basically you are saying that unless the chars are 100% exactly identical, its impossible to balance them perfectly. ive said that many times also and its correct, but sonic team could at least get them pretty close to each other. thats all we are asking for here.

[panzer_unit]

Some other company actually did PSP right? Alpha Systems or something.
The balance in that is a lot better but then they changed practically everything.

Job stat modifiers were changed as much as their skill caps & weapon types Weapon stats were juggled around quite a bit too. ... but most skill stats seem the same, and melee attacks still have JA and base race/gender/level stats seem the same.

I just switched my human over to MasterForce in Portable last night... just based on a few runs of Sleeping Warriors hunting the Prophets of Motav wand and leveling techs (I got two to 30, and once I get 10 techs maxed all the rest will level at double the speed lol) why don't Dam-technics get a lot more attention in these arguments about techer DPS? This might just be another change from Portable but by 21+ their AOE is getting up on "all you guys over there" and damage output is probably ahead of everything else per-target in addition to the fact that it's easier to hit a huge number of targets with them than ra- or gi- types. Seriously, it's a switch from being a powerful attack against mobs of rushers to my main form of attack.

[panzer_unit]

yep, even a perfect MF is terrible compared to FM. they are about 3 to 5 times worse, depending on the mission.

so basically you are saying that unless the chars are 100% exactly identical, its impossible to balance them perfectly. ive said that many times also and its correct, but sonic team could at least get them pretty close to each other. thats all we are asking for here.

... that's funny, in the screencaps in this thread the newman MF finished the mission enemies in Dual Sentinal just 20% slower than the newman FM. Yes, that's being charitable by comparing performance only based on the kind of combat that techniques are actually good at, but it's still there. I know the FM isn't a beast, but how much of a real difference would the higher ATP make? It could be a lot (newman always requires additional attack moves for kills vs beast) or none at all (enemies need the same combo from each character even if the beast barely has any damage left to do on their last attack)

I agree with Inazuma though, all we're talking about is damage output and it really shouldn't be hard to tweak it so everyone can be in the same ballpark in some typical scenario (3 independent targets, maybe?) and then introduce variations on the "fair" scenario for each character type (melee damage output remains pretty consistent regardless of the number of targets, while tech damage output will scale up with the number of individual enemies present... different types of firearm vary between the two options)

[Cloudstrife xx]

yep, even a perfect MF is terrible compared to FM. they are about 3 to 5 times worse, depending on the mission.


so basically you are saying that unless the chars are 100% exactly identical, its impossible to balance them perfectly. ive said that many times also and its correct, but sonic team could at least get them pretty close to each other. thats all we are asking for here.
Agreed.

[Inazuma]

I know the FM isn't a beast, but how much of a real difference would the higher ATP make?

you mean cast, right? beast is just a stronger human. they suck at everything.
and to answer your question, having higher stats plus suv would make quite a large difference. newman FM is much worse than cast FM.

[autumn]

A CAST would have probably taken about 1/2 the time it took me on my newman :lol:. The additional ATP and the SUV would have made all the difference.

[panzer_unit]

you mean cast, right? beast is just a stronger human. they suck at everything.
and to answer your question, having higher stats plus suv would make quite a large difference. newman FM is much worse than cast FM.

You'll have to qualify "much worse"... one more minute to clear a mission? Two minutes? The effects of an less-than-astronomical ATP advantage are pretty random when it comes to making fights shorter as a fighter class.

[Inazuma]

You'll have to qualify "much worse"... one more minute to clear a mission? Two minutes? The effects of an less-than-astronomical ATP advantage are pretty random when it comes to making fights shorter as a fighter class.

i already told you the reasons but ill say em again. newman cant use suv. that alone makes them much worse. but suvs aside, their stats are lower. the only thing newman is better at is resisting SEs, b/c they can equip hizeri/stamina.

i dont know the exact numbers for their stats and i dont care. cast has higher HP, power and accuracy.

and btw, 1 or 2 mins faster is huge, considering most missions can be cleared under 10 mins.

*edit* for those that do care about how much cast beats newman, i found some stats:

Stats at level 140, type level 20

Race/gender __ HP ATP ATA TP DFP EVP MST STA
Male CAST __ 3816 1799 775 231 396 071 217 8
Male newman 3271 1512 724 426 323 101 553 8

so we see that cast has much better stats where it matters. HP, ATP, ATA, EVP. newman's only stat advantage of higher MST is canceled out by his lower HP. Newman FM is shit, bottom line.

[desturel]

why don't Dam-technics get a lot more attention in these arguments about techer DPS?

Because dam techs are mob control and useless against large creatures? We aren't complaining about techer's mob damage. We are complaining about techer's damage to large creatures and bosses. If you want to his De Ragnus with damfoie, that's up to you.

Dam spells can't even hit De Rol Le and Dark Falz when they are docked on the side of the boat which is stupid IMO.

Ah, how I miss PSO rafoie. The De Rol Le slayer.

[RemiusTA]

Autumn's scenario was like telling a 90 year old woman with arthritis in her knees to go from point A to point B on a wheelchair using her arms... then telling her do it again on a Pogostick.

But miraculously, the latter was done faster.


Either the wheelchair was made of Concrete, or that pogostick had antigravity modulators and plasma cannons on it.

MF and FM are the same way.

[panzer_unit]

Stats at level 140, type level 20

Race/gender __ HP ATP ATA TP DFP EVP MST STA
Male CAST __ 3816 1799 775 231 396 071 217 8
Male newman 3271 1512 724 426 323 101 553 8


So with a 750-ATP spear equipped on each the Cast doesn't even have a 15% ATP advantage... what are the odds that extra damage output actually translates to killing 1 full PA move faster than the newm? Not really good just looking at the numbers, especially considering most PA's do the bulk of their damage on the 2nd or 3rd move anyway making the edge statistically less significant early in the combo. There are enough missions though that I'm sure you could shop around until you found enemies in a level range where it does/doesn't happen depending on preference.

Unless things have changed significantly from what Fortefighter was (and Portable still is) it takes a bigger ATP difference than that before you can consistently pull one full move ahead in the 2 or 3 you use before most enemies are down. That's why I mentioned Beast, I'd rather guarantee shorter combos on every enemy in the mission than get one or two inconvenient spawns out of the way.

[Inazuma]

So with a 750-ATP spear equipped on each the Cast doesn't even have a 15% ATP advantage... what are the odds that extra damage output actually translates to killing 1 full PA move faster than the newm? Not really good just looking at the numbers, especially considering most PA's do the bulk of their damage on the 2nd or 3rd move anyway making the edge statistically less significant early in the combo. There are enough missions though that I'm sure you could shop around until you found enemies in a level range where it does/doesn't happen depending on preference.

Unless things have changed significantly from what Fortefighter was (and Portable still is) it takes a bigger ATP difference than that before you can consistently pull one full move ahead in the 2 or 3 you use before most enemies are down. That's why I mentioned Beast, I'd rather guarantee shorter combos on every enemy in the mission than get one or two inconvenient spawns out of the way.

so which is it then? does atp matter or not to you? first you act like 15% atp advantage is no big deal, then you go on to say how you play beast b/c of his 5% atp advantage over cast.

lets look at the stats for those then:

Race/gender _ HP ATP ATA TP DFP EVP MST STA
Male beast _ 4033 1943 568 282 366 86 252 8
Male CAST _ 3816 1799 775 231 396 71 217 8

so beast has 144 more atp but 207 less ATA than cast. oh they also have a little more evade. its a pretty small advantage, if you could even call it that. and if you arent using jarbroga, look forward to missing more than cast. but anyway, beast cant use paradi suv so even if the beast could kill monsters very slightly faster than cast, its not much compared to paradi's advantage.

if killing monsters fast is important to you, cast would be the better choice. i will say that beast isnt horrible like newman is. they are pretty close to cast at least.

[Zyrusticae]

so we see that cast has much better stats where it matters. HP, ATP, ATA, EVP. newman's only stat advantage of higher MST is canceled out by his lower HP. Newman FM is shit, bottom line.

Newman's EVP is better.

What you're looking at is DFP. Which, being a fighter, is the more important stat, and obviously CASTs have the highest DFP of all the races.

Just keeping that straight. Obviously, Newman FM/FF is for people who want a bit of challenge (not MUCH more challenge, but some).

[Inazuma]

Newman's EVP is better.

What you're looking at is DFP. Which, being a fighter, is the more important stat, and obviously CASTs have the highest DFP of all the races.

Just keeping that straight. Obviously, Newman FM/FF is for people who want a bit of challenge (not MUCH more challenge, but some).

i was talking about FM, not MF, so lower evade is a good thing. cast wins.

[garjian]

hm... fighmaster sucks anyway... im not sure why youre all fussed... fortefighters a better melee class... and even then neither of them are the best class in the game...

which brings this back to what this thread is about i guess... >>>CLASS<<< balance...

theres no need to straighten anything out... cause people belive what they believe they believe... and words on a monitor arent gonna convince them otherwise are they... precisely why youre gonna keep doing it after reading this... just so you know its pointless ^^

[HyperShot-X-]

here is alittle example what a masterforce can do these are not my videos
http://www.youtube.com/milranduil
thanks for that link, here I found a better example that tells a lot by itself: "150 20 FNewman MF TA White Beast S2 13min Part 2"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYqM1RuEwK0

*skip to 3:50 for boss battle, Alterazgogh(lv165) done in 3 mins flat excluding boss cut scenes, not even using a single scape doll with 10* armor, no Orpad/ units.

Just forget about De Ragnus(lv115) for a sec and the fact that a FM with Jabroga could probably do this 2 or 3 times faster(as was expected), this shows that MF can still manage to not get 1 hit KO'd with such low HP, and it's far from having 'nothing to take out any boss in the game'.

If you truely think getting Ra techs muti-hitbox ability is justified so that you can cut down a min or so in boss battle soloing TA runs by yourself all day, by all means, I sincerely hope that you get it. That's just all that you wanted to settle this whole deal, nothing else right?

[desturel]

theres no need to straighten anything out... cause people belive what they believe they believe... and words on a monitor arent gonna convince them otherwise are they... precisely why youre gonna keep doing it after reading this... just so you know its pointless ^^

I believe everyone but HyperShot knows the classes aren't balanced. Right now, they are arguing that Paradi is not balanced, which is also a well known "issue". Next we'll go on to talking about how Zeed Val is worse than Adaka Val, Bogga Val and Vande Val since there aren't enough high evasion enemies where the extra accuracy is actually important.

[Inazuma]

hm... fighmaster sucks anyway... im not sure why youre all fussed... fortefighters a better melee class... and even then neither of them are the best class in the game...

which brings this back to what this thread is about i guess... >>>CLASS<<< balance...

theres no need to straighten anything out... cause people belive what they believe they believe... and words on a monitor arent gonna convince them otherwise are they... precisely why youre gonna keep doing it after reading this... just so you know its pointless ^^

oh you are free to believe anything you want, even if its completely untrue. but if two people are arguing over something thats either true or false, one of them has to be right and the other is wrong. you cant have it both ways and say its a matter of beliefs or opinions.

for example, Joe bought a gallon of milk at the store. Joe's friend Bill argue w/ Joe and says its actually a gallon of lemonade. talk all you want about beliefs or opinions or whatever, but both of these people cant be right in this situation.

[Cloudstrife xx]

hm... fighmaster sucks anyway... im not sure why youre all fussed... fortefighters a better melee class... and even then neither of them are the best class in the game...

which brings this back to what this thread is about i guess... >>>CLASS<<< balance...

theres no need to straighten anything out... cause people belive what they believe they believe... and words on a monitor arent gonna convince them otherwise are they... precisely why youre gonna keep doing it after reading this... just so you know its pointless ^^
You clearly know nothing do you yeah fortefighter still very powerful but hey man Fighmaster and gunmaster are the fastest classes in psu

Im gonna guess you said that cause either you cant stand that fighmaster has only 4 weps not that it matters those weps execpt the long sword own, or you couldnt afford the high% weps 42%+ so you stick to fortefighter with cheap 42%+ a ranks which is fine but dont make silly post like that cause you clearly know nothing about masterclasses.... and yes ive played fortefighter for the last 2 years i know my stuff about that class so im not being biased

[Hiero_Glyph]

You clearly know nothing do you yeah fortefighter still very powerful but hey man Fighmaster and gunmaster are the fastest classes in psu

Im gonna guess you said that cause either you cant stand that fighmaster has only 4 weps not that it matters those weps execpt the long sword own, or you couldnt afford the high% weps 42%+ so you stick to fortefighter with cheap 42%+ a ranks which is fine but dont make silly post like that cause you clearly know nothing about masterclasses.... and yes ive played fortefighter for the last 2 years i know my stuff about that class so im not being biased

Gravity Break is still the highest DPS that a FM can achieve when facing a single hit box enemy. /fact

[Suzuka Miyamoto]

WOW over 17 pages over classes? You people took this shit to the next lvl!

Just shut up and play the game. (-_-)''''''''''' westerns

[Cloudstrife xx]

Gravity Break is still the highest DPS that a FM can achieve when facing a single hit box enemy. /fact
yes very true but half the time not enough room for it on my palette of 6 weps on most missions so its hard to really take advantage i used to use it on that one stray vanda at bruce dungeon but on a bil de vear spiral dance still better

[Calsetes]

oh you are free to believe anything you want, even if its completely untrue. but if two people are arguing over something thats either true or false, one of them has to be right and the other is wrong. you cant have it both ways and say its a matter of beliefs or opinions.

for example, Joe bought a gallon of milk at the store. Joe's friend Bill argue w/ Joe and says its actually a gallon of lemonade. talk all you want about beliefs or opinions or whatever, but both of these people cant be right in this situation.

In this case, however, they're both wrong.

That wasn't lemonade. The restroom was locked.


...........


Yeah. Go figure.

Just a little humor, go back to arguing your "chicken or egg" argument.

[RemiusTA]

WOW over 17 pages over classes? You people took this shit to the next lvl!

Just shut up and play the game. (-_-)''''''''''' westerns

Well sorry western's dont like settling for shit.





-------------


Well alright guys, i guess we can stfu now.

Sonic Team actually cracked my face wide open with the adjustments shown in the "Supplemental update". Seems the japanese have a raging topic quite similar to this one, since Jarborga, Majjara and Tornado Dance all got the nerfhammer, along with Cataract.

They also say every class is getting status adjustments. This may be what we've been asking for. They even added "Limit Break : (technic)" items in, and they can be anywhere from suped-up technics to new attacks for Forces.


Since we're now arguing over shit that's apparently ALL being changed come march 26, we might as well hold off until friday. There's no telling how much its being changed, but there's hope.

What do i personally think? Forces simply need a huge TP boost. On Hybrids too, but DEFINATLEY on FT/MF. It looks like ST is doing what they need to and is currently nerfing the unfair Photon Arts. All they have to do now is make technic damage not completely suck.



So we might as well curb this until we see how the japanese version holds out.

[Inazuma]

this topic is over now anyway. no one knows exactly how all the new balance changes will end up affecting the game. maybe in a few weeks from now after we have a chance to get adjusted to everything, we can continue to bitch and argue again.

[RemiusTA]

Yeah, we might as well wait until thursday when some of the US/JP players can give intel on what's changed.

I really did NOT expect this update to come this soon. Hopefully it'll come quickly to the US.

[autumn]

Always possible. While we can't seem to stay up to date on events and missions I don't think (at least until this update) that we're behind on any system updates so here's to hoping we see thing stuff sooner then we think!

[Ruru]

the only problem with this update is techers still need to hit multiple boxes on large enemies/bosses to be up to par with melee/gunner damage and theres no mention of that. no amount of TP boosting (unless they give us like 20k TP as newman MF and put us into godmode OHKO Diga on a polavohra) will help us not suck on these types of enemies.

i honestly dont think melee needs nerfing. they just needed to give techers a little nudge in the right direction.

[desturel]

i honestly dont think melee needs nerfing. they just needed to give techers a little nudge in the right direction.

I don't mind the melee nerfs. I wouldn't have been upset if melee had been left untouched, but I do think that Paradi nerf was long overdue.

Jabroga having it's ATA mod implemented = Good. No reason why something this strong should never miss.

Majarra nerf = Meh, don't care. Could have kept it the same. Actually, they could have made Daggas stronger (again) to compete with Majarra.

Tornado Dance nerf = meh, didn't care since I rarely time attack (although I can see why time attack with a non-fighmaster was a PITA because of tornado dance).

Paradi nerf = about damn time.

As for the rest, I'll have to wait and see how much they balance the classes.

[AlphaDragoon]

They also say every class is getting status adjustments. This may be what we've been asking for. They even added "Limit Break : (technic)" items in, and they can be anywhere from suped-up technics to new attacks for Forces.

Actually, aren't those just AEXP stats? Like the Weapon Level increases and such?

[Christmas]

No, the actual types that we know are getting changed. Which makes it rather hard to tell how everything will be affected. Could be something simple, that it doesn't matter, or something rather drastic. Just will have to wait till it's released.

[InfiniDragon]

Um...where did you see that? Everyone else that referred to the "Limit Break" item seem to say it's AEXP for Technics just like there is for PAs.

[Hiero_Glyph]

I don't mind the melee nerfs. I wouldn't have been upset if melee had been left untouched, but I do think that Paradi nerf was long overdue.

Jabroga has been broken for far longer than Paradi has ever been around. Besides, we won't see this update for at least another 6 months.

[AlphaDragoon]

No, the actual types that we know are getting changed. Which makes it rather hard to tell how everything will be affected. Could be something simple, that it doesn't matter, or something rather drastic. Just will have to wait till it's released.

I wasn't referring to the type adjustment, I was referring to the "Limit Break" items being simply AEXP items rather than buffs to techs.

[Ruru]

Jabroga has been broken for far longer than Paradi has ever been around. Besides, we won't see this update for at least another 6 months.


actually in the past they've given us these stat adjustments (as well as the visual tech nerf) around the same time as the JP side, so honestly we could be seeing this pretty soon.

[desturel]

Jabroga has been broken for far longer than Paradi has ever been around.

Jabroga didn't destroy game balance to the extent of Paradi. Nor does it have an invincible startup, instant freeze, and damage to an area the size of a large room. Just because something is older doesn't mean that it's more broken.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Jabroga didn't destroy game balance to the extent of Paradi. Nor does it have an invincible startup, instant freeze, and damage to an area the size of a large room. Just because something is older doesn't mean that it's more broken.

You are really bitter about this, huh? Well, to start the inviniciable startup is the same as any nanoblast; it is hardly game breaking as I have nanoblasted through incoming Diga many times.

The freeze is not a full SE freeze as it is always broken in one hit. Compare this to the burn from Sturm Attacker that has SE level 4 and the damage over time from Sturm is far superior to the simple freeze from Paradi. Again, hardly game breaking.

Lastly is the damage and radius of Paradi, which Japan has been using up until level 170/20 (they just got 180/20 with the title update). Now imagine having Paradi scale with the base ATP all the way up to level 170? That is why it is getting nerfed, not because it is super powerful at 130/20 (when it was released to us) or 150/20 (where we are currently). Sure, it is the best SUV available, but it is also the only S-rank SUV available currently or at all for that matter.

So according to the nerf notes, the radius and damage will be decreased from Paradi. I cannot imagine how powerful the Paradi would be at 170/20 so I'm sure that they will keep it fairly strong or simply take away its scaling ability. As for the radius, again, there is no reason to make it tiny so it will still be able to clear an entire spawn, you will just have to be standing closer to them. I am curious to see how the nerf is done, but Paradi is and will remain the best SUV in most situations.

Also note that Paradi can be used at most ~3 times per mission. Jabroga can hit as many times as I want for much more total damage than a single Paradi, especially against bosses. Keep telling yourself that Paradi was more broken than Jabroga. Besides, Jabroga earned the nickname Jabroken, what was Paradi's nickname?

[panzer_unit]

So according to the nerf notes, the radius and damage will be decreased from Paradi. I cannot imagine how powerful the Paradi would be at 170/20 so I'm sure that they will keep it fairly strong or simply take away its scaling ability. As for the radius, again, there is no reason to make it tiny so it will still be able to clear an entire spawn, you will just have to be standing closer to them. I am curious to see how the nerf is done, but Paradi is and will remain the best SUV in most situations.

Also note that Paradi can be used at most ~3 times per mission. Jabroga can hit as many times as I want for much more total damage than a single Paradi, especially against bosses. Keep telling yourself that Paradi was more broken than Jabroga. Besides, Jabroga earned the nickname Jabroken, what was Paradi's nickname?

I think the patch nerfs are partly to even classes out for their time-attacking ability. Tornado Dance is getting dumped as hax for movement-speed, and Paradi is getting it's biggest advantage over Jabroga smooshed, the one situation you really gain time from Paradi is when wiping out a room where the mobs start scattered all over the place instead of some easily-nuked cluster.

[desturel]

You are really bitter about this, huh?

I'm confused as to how I am bitter about this. Please explain.


Well, to start the inviniciable startup is the same as any nanoblast; it is hardly game breaking as I have nanoblasted through incoming Diga many times.

Jabroga isn't a nanoblast. Jabroga isn't a racial ability. Jabroga does not have invincibility. Our comparison is between Jabroga and Paradi. Or at least my comparison was. Not sure what your comparison is.


The freeze is not a full SE freeze as it is always broken in one hit. Compare this to the burn from Sturm Attacker that has SE level 4 and the damage over time from Sturm is far superior to the simple freeze from Paradi. Again, hardly game breaking.

Again, comparing Jabroga to Paradi, Jabroga does not freeze enemies. There is no status effect on Jabroga. (maybe they'll come out with an instant freeze axe)

Not only that, comparing Paradi to Sturm Attacker is funny. If the level 4 burn on Attacker was overpowering, then people would use it as a replacement. During the entire mission carnival I saw a total of four casts that used Sturm attaker on Seed Magashi (me being one of them) where the level 4 burn was more useful than the freeze SE provided by Paradi and did more damage over time.

Magashi was a rare case where Sturm was actually the stronger option to Paradi, but it didn't stop people from abusing Paradi due to their horrible addiction to the crutch.


Lastly is the damage and radius of Paradi, which Japan has been using up until level 170/20 (they just got 180/20 with the title update). Now imagine having Paradi scale with the base ATP all the way up to level 170? That is why it is getting nerfed, not because it is super powerful at 130/20 (when it was released to us) or 150/20 (where we are currently). Sure, it is the best SUV available, but it is also the only S-rank SUV available currently or at all for that matter.

Again, comparing to Jabroga, the Damage and Radius of Paradi DWARFS the damage and radius of Jabroga. It has a wider radius than Sturm, Gigas, Grom (of course), and any other SUV in the game. Not only that, but you can have someone start Jabroga, do Paradi after they start their animation, and Paradi will finish before the Jabroga completes.

So to recap where we are at right now:
Jabroga SE vs. Paradi SE = Win for Paradi
Jabroga Radius vs. Paradi Radius = Win for Paradi
Jabroga Speed vs. Paradi Speed = Win for Paradi
Jabroga Strength vs. Paradi Strength = Win for Paradi

Are you following along?


So according to the nerf notes, the radius and damage will be decreased from Paradi. I cannot imagine how powerful the Paradi would be at 170/20 so I'm sure that they will keep it fairly strong or simply take away its scaling ability. As for the radius, again, there is no reason to make it tiny so it will still be able to clear an entire spawn, you will just have to be standing closer to them. I am curious to see how the nerf is done, but Paradi is and will remain the best SUV in most situations.

This is speculation. We'll have to wait and see what the changes are. My guess is it will have about as much range as Sturm, which is still good.


Also note that Paradi can be used at most ~3 times per mission. Jabroga can hit as many times as I want for much more total damage than a single Paradi, especially against bosses. Keep telling yourself that Paradi was more broken than Jabroga.

Okay so to add to the list from above:

Jabroga boss damage vs. Paradi Boss Damage = Win for Jabroga

Wow, throw out all of that stuff from before, because Jabroga hit multiple targets, it's automatically the winner? Not in my book.

Spamming Jabroga in the wrong situation will increase the time of your run. Using Paradi in a not optimal situation, won't increase the time of your run, but it also will not decrease the time by any significant amount. You say "you can use Jabroga as much as you want, but Paradi is limited" is a ridiculous argument. That assumes Jabroga can be spammed whenever for maximum efficiency. It can't.

That being said, Paradi is not meant for boss damage. It clears out a room for free. You don't have to fight 90% of the creatures in a single room for the small cost of a button press. It only does single target damage. Everyone knows this. Why are you using it on a multi target creature such as a boss?

I find it absolutely hilarious when people run through a mission and save their Paradi for the boss. That's not what it's meant for. It's not a boss killer, it's a room clearer just like the majority of SUV (Gigas Espada and Meteor Attacker being the main exceptions) . So why would I consider a room clearer more broken than a boss kill? It's simple really, rooms can be more difficult than bosses.

Take, for example, Seed Express. The long hallway or cargo room Seed Ardite and sword buffed Deljaban. A Jabroga using person who exclusively uses Jabroga, would quickly find themselves dead from a number of attacks from Deljaban and Ardite before their Jabroga even has a chance to finish. You would have a hard time hitting a pack of Orcadillian with Jabroga before they ran you over. Delnadians would kill you where you stand should they spawn before the Jabroga got off. What's the saving factor in these situations? Freeze Trap G on fighmasters. Toss down the Freeze trap G and you are free to Jabroga the enemies before they attack you.

Now say the Jabroga only user was also a cast with Paradi. Take the Ardite/Deljaban room. Press for Paradi, that takes out the Deljaban and Bel Pannon leaving only the Ardite who are currently on their back thanks to Paradi's knock up status effect. You can now Jabroga freely and kill one, or maybe even both Ardite before they get a chance to stop your Jabroga.

Then we go onto the Orcadillian room, that's even easier. No large enemies so Paradi kills all of them before they get a chance to run you over. Same situation with the Delnadian. Paradi takes them out no problem.

So with Paradi, you made an extremely difficult solo situation into a breeze and are free to just use Jabroga for the remainder of the room (while even speeding up their run time). A Jabroga only user would have a much slower runtime than a person who used Jabroga in conjunction with other photon arts (Dus Majarra in many people's cases), a Jabroga user that also used Paradi, or even a person who ignored completely Jabroga in favor of other situation specific photon arts (Dus Robaddo, Tornado Dance, Spiral Dance, etc). Could you imagine chasing down every individual Bel Pannon with Jabroga? It would take forever.

Jabroga is strong when used in conjunction with other arts to clear out a difficult room. Paradi supercedes all other options to become the fastest way to clear out a difficult room.

There are, of course, a few exceptions to this rule. For example, Tunnel Recapture block 3. This block is mostly Drua Gohra and Bil De Vear. Paradi only hits one target (fine for bil, bad for Drua), and both creatures take half damage from bullets (since Paradi counts as a bullet, it hits for half damage), making it a waste to use in that situation. But honestly, who even plays Tunnel Recapture anymore (besides me that is).

Another situation, the completely remade Hive maps. (not true darkness, but Dark Satellite and Seed Awkening). These maps have been remade to increase the Dilnazen (strong against Paradi) and decrease the Gaozoran (weak against paradi). Not that Jabroga is very good against either one of those creatures. Both are single target and would be better dealt with by using Gravity Break, Dus Daggas, or Dus Majarra.

Now lets add in the little talked about fact that Paradi is a racial exclusive. Jabroga is not. You can use Paradi with Jabroga to make things flow even faster. This is a racial advantage boarding on ludicrous. Take two equally skilled players with access to the exact same equipment and the same photon art levels. Make one a cast and one a beast. The cast with Paradi and Jabroga will beat the time of a beast with just Jabroga. Nanoblasts take longer to complete and do not clear out an entire room in one button press.

Speed of implementation, ease of use, effective SE, quick high damage and exclusive to one race in the game, vs a PA that is good against large enemies and groups of tightly packed enemies. Yet you wonder why I think Paradi is more broken than Jabroga.

The fact that Jabroga can be beaten by a Grenade Launcher in situations should again reinforce that it's not the be all and end all of photon arts. The fact that the only thing needed to balance Jabroga in ST's eyes is to implement the long ignored ATA modifier should say even more.


Besides, Jabroga earned the nickname Jabroken, what was Paradi's nickname?

There are many many nicknames for Paradi, mostly down to the individual person:
"The Easy Button"
"Instant Win Button"
"Cast Supremacy"
"Frozen Napalm"

I could name a lot more actually. You get to see a lot of them when you run with casts that use shortcuts. I personally prefer "The Easy Button" when I use my cast. Anyway, what does a nickname have to do with the relative power of a move?

Jabroga has a simple onomatopoeia it takes no creativity to make a nickname based off of a common words and usage. People call Mugunburga Mugunburger, that doesn't mean the spear a hamburger. People call the Kan Yu Man Yu and the Vanbrella ManBrella, that doesn't mean they both sprout penises.

I would love to hear your arguments for why Jabroga is more of a game breaker than Paradi.

[RemiusTA]

we've gone from "Broken vs. Unbroken" to "(Broken vs. Broken) x (Nerfhammer)"

hahahhhahhah

[Hiero_Glyph]

Why Jabroga is more game breaking than Paradi:

1) Paradi can be used 3-4 times per mission; Jabroga can be spammed continually without end for the duration of an entire mission (or at least until you run out of PP and Photon Charges/Cosmos).

2) Paradi's damage is based upon the base ATP of the character (level based); Jabroga's damage is based upon the PA level (up to 420% @ level 50), the total ATP of the character (including base ATP, arm unit, armor & possible set bonus in addition to the weapon's attack), and the weapon's elemental bonus (up to 50%). This total damage can then be Just Attacked for an additional 50% damage.

3) Paradi's damage only increases as the level cap increases; Jabroga's damage increases any time the following conditions are met: a higher ATP arm unit is released; a new axe board with a high ATP is released; the player level is increased; or a new armor is released that has a hidden ATP bonus or set bonus.

4) Paradi is mostly ineffective against bosses; Jabroga can deal in excess of 30,000 damage against bosses and then be repeated until said boss is dead.

5) Paradi> If you die you lose your SUV meter and must recharge it; Jabroga> If you die you simply need to use an Agtaride/Megistaride and continue what you were doing previously.

& 6) Paradi can miss; Jabroga is auto-hit.

[Magus_84]

Why Jabroga is more game breaking than Paradi:

1) Paradi can be used 3-4 times per mission; Jabroga can be spammed continually without end for the duration of an entire mission (or at least until you run out of PP and Photon Charges/Cosmos).

2) Paradi's damage is based upon the base ATP of the character (level based); Jabroga's damage is based upon the PA level (up to 420% @ level 50), the total ATP of the character (including base ATP, arm unit, armor & possible set bonus in addition to the weapon's attack), and the weapon's elemental bonus (up to 50%). This total damage can then be Just Attacked for an additional 50% damage.

3) Paradi's damage only increases as the level cap increases; Jabroga's damage increases any time the following conditions are met: a higher ATP arm unit is released; a new axe board with a high ATP is released; the player level is increased; or a new armor is released that has a hidden ATP bonus or set bonus.

4) Paradi is mostly ineffective against bosses; Jabroga can deal in excess of 30,000 damage against bosses and then be repeated until said boss is dead.

5) Paradi> If you die you lose your SUV meter and must recharge it; Jabroga> If you die you simply need to use an Agtaride/Megistaride and continue what you were doing previously.

& 6) Paradi can miss; Jabroga is auto-hit.

Jabroga unbalances things against the enemies. Paradi unbalances CASTs against everything else, as it gives them a grossly unfair advantage. At least every race can use Jabroga if they switch an axe-using class.

Also, Jabroga has to be leveled to gain its full efficiency. Paradi just has to be equipped.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Jabroga unbalances things against the enemies. Paradi unbalances CASTs against everything else, as it gives them a grossly unfair advantage. At least every race can use Jabroga if they switch an axe-using class.

Also, Jabroga has to be leveled to gain its full efficiency. Paradi just has to be equipped.

This requires an S-rank armor with an extra slot and enough DFP to equip said armor. In some cases this is difficult for some players to manage as these armors are often expensive dpending upon your class.

I am not saying that Paradi is not broken, just that it is hardly as breaking as Jabroga has become overall.

[desturel]

Why Jabroga is more game breaking than Paradi:

Good that you gave reasonable examples this time, but I continue to disagree.


1) Paradi can be used 3-4 times per mission; Jabroga can be spammed continually without end for the duration of an entire mission (or at least until you run out of PP and Photon Charges/Cosmos).

Paradi can be equiped at level 20 and requires no additional equipment beyond an equipable S-rank armor. Paradi does not need to be leveled. Paradi does not require a high percentage weapon to do additional damage.



2) Paradi's damage is based upon the base ATP of the character (level based); Jabroga's damage is based upon the PA level (up to 420% @ level 50), the total ATP of the character (including base ATP, arm unit, armor & possible set bonus in addition to the weapon's attack), and the weapon's elemental bonus (up to 50%). This total damage can then be Just Attacked for an additional 50% damage.

Which is easier, reaching max level in this game or leveling a PA to 50 through normal usage? Sure you can spam Jabroga with a 50% fire axe on De Ragan's tail as with a level 70 character, but you are going to gain EXP faster in any other situation making Paradi the easier thing to "level". Just attack can be missed.


3) Paradi's damage only increases as the level cap increases; Jabroga's damage increases any time the following conditions are met: a higher ATP arm unit is released; a new axe board with a high ATP is released; the player level is increased; or a new armor is released that has a hidden ATP bonus or set bonus.

These are the exact same thing. Whenever a level cap is raised, paradi becomes stronger at no additional effort to the user. The Jabroga user needs to find the new ATP unit or higher percentage axe or grind it to a higher grind themselves. It's either going to be time consuming or costly to improve on Jabroga. Again, no effort required for the Paradi user... well besides the ability to hit two buttons at once.



4) Paradi is mostly ineffective against bosses; Jabroga can deal in excess of 30,000 damage against bosses and then be repeated until said boss is dead.

Never disputed that Jabroga was a boss killer. I believe the initial point of this thread was that Forces did NOT have a boss killer. Shotgun, Grenade, Jabroga, etc. So I will, of course, concede this fact since I never argued against it.


5) Paradi> If you die you lose your SUV meter and must recharge it; Jabroga> If you die you simply need to use an Agtaride/Megistaride and continue what you were doing previously.

We would need stronger enemies before I have to worry about dying as a fighter class. Megid or me just not paying attention to my HP are about the only ways I tend to die. The death penalty of casts losing their SUV or Beasts losing their Nanoblast isn't much of a penalty when the creatures aren't high enough level to be seriously dangerous to you.

I guess if you are using a Cast Masterforce this would be an issue, however cast masterforce doesn't have access to Jabroga and Paradi is at least a get out of jail free card in terms of freezing the creatures that are smacking you around at any given time (an option non cast Masterforces do not have).


6) Paradi can miss; Jabroga is auto-hit.

Paradi hits enough times that you never have to worry about it hitting for all zeros. When was the last time you remember Paradi failing to at least freeze all creatures that are capable of being frozen on the screen?

It has to do damage in order for the effect to take place, meaning it did hit at least once. I see more 0s pop up from Sturm Attacker.

[RemiusTA]

Either of these PA's + Dragon Boss = Pork Chops.

BOTH of those monstrosities are broken.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Good that you gave reasonable examples this time, but I continue to disagree.

You are still entitled to your own opinion.


Paradi can be equiped at level 20 and requires no additional equipment beyond an equipable S-rank armor. Paradi does not need to be leveled. Paradi does not require a high percentage weapon to do additional damage.

So in regard to replying to my comment about being able to use Paradi 3-4 times per mission yet being able to spam Jabroga you tell me the requirement for equipping an S-rank SUV? Yeah, that is a great way to refute my standpoint. I guess the only thing I have to say is "bananas". When you are ready to address my comment feel free.


Which is easier, reaching max level in this game or leveling a PA to 50 through normal usage? Sure you can spam Jabroga with a 50% fire axe on De Ragan's tail as with a level 70 character, but you are going to gain EXP faster in any other situation making Paradi the easier thing to "level". Just attack can be missed.

At least you are actually replying to my comment this time. More to the point is that you cannot Just Attack Paradi, ever. So to say that you can 'miss' JA'ing Jabroga is like saying that I can use an off element weapon with 0 grinds. Sure it can happen but that does not mean the majority of players will be doing it. Using your logic, a CAST MF's Paradi will be so weak that Jabroga will beat it every time.


These are the exact same thing. Whenever a level cap is raised, paradi becomes stronger at no additional effort to the user. The Jabroga user needs to find the new ATP unit or higher percentage axe or grind it to a higher grind themselves. It's either going to be time consuming or costly to improve on Jabroga. Again, no effort required for the Paradi user... well besides the ability to hit two buttons at once.

We have exactly two more level cap increases planned before the supposed title update. With new arm units, set bonuses, new axes and boards, etc. all coming out in the near future there are more than two chances to increase the damage of Jabroga for your average user. Sure these take some effort to acquire but the what else are you going to do in PSU? No pain, no gain, right?


Never disputed that Jabroga was a boss killer. I believe the initial point of this thread was that Forces did NOT have a boss killer. Shotgun, Grenade, Jabroga, etc. So I will, of course, concede this fact since I never argued against it.

I was replying to your comment that Jabrogas was not as much of a game breker as Paradi; why are you going back to the original point all of a sudden?


We would need stronger enemies before I have to worry about dying as a fighter class. Megid or me just not paying attention to my HP are about the only ways I tend to die. The death penalty of casts losing their SUV or Beasts losing their Nanoblast isn't much of a penalty when the creatures aren't high enough level to be seriously dangerous to you.

This is not a discussion about you or me, but about the average player and they die plenty often. Also, newer S3 missions are on the way and most players avoid SEED Express so I think they are already afraid of dying.


I guess if you are using a Cast Masterforce this would be an issue, however cast masterforce doesn't have access to Jabroga and Paradi is at least a get out of jail free card in terms of freezing the creatures that are smacking you around at any given time (an option non cast Masterforces do not have).

I'll take a Newman Fighmaster over a CAST Masterforce any time. Do you really think that Paradi alone offsets the weaknesses of a CAST Masterforce? If so, no wonder you are so biased against CASTs, your viewpoint is skewed.


Paradi hits enough times that you never have to worry about it hitting for all zeros. When was the last time you remember Paradi failing to at least freeze all creatures that are capable of being frozen on the screen?

It has to do damage in order for the effect to take place, meaning it did hit at least once. I see more 0s pop up from Sturm Attacker.

Paradi sends predetermined projectiles down from above. If an enemy is not under these projectiles they will not be struck in addition to being able to hit for zero damage. Sure Paradi kills most enemies and leaves the rest frozen but it still can miss; unlike Jabroga (at least pre-nerf Jabroga).

[desturel]

You are still entitled to your own opinion.

Of course, that's why opinions are fun to have.


So in regard to replying to my comment about being able to use Paradi 3-4 times per mission yet being able to spam Jabroga you tell me the requirement for equipping an S-rank SUV? Yeah, that is a great way to refute my standpoint. I guess the only thing I have to say is "bananas". When you are ready to address my comment feel free.

Your example contained multiple points. I addressed the one most pertinent.

You can use Paradi as much as you want in a mission. Stand around and get hit then use Paradi. There is no limit on how many times you can use Paradi just as there are no limits on how many times you can use Jabroga. Your argument would be like me saying "well, you can only use Jabroga 4 times before your Axe runs out of PP." Just use a photon charge.

If you are talking about using Paradi efficiently, then yes 3 or 4 times per run. Once per block would be prudent. If you are a crappy player then you can get Paradi much more often than that by getting knocked around. Just like Jabroga, part of the power of Paradi is choosing the right place and time to use it. However unlike Jabroga, it's power to get a free pass on a room is always available.

BTW, I like how you parody my response style. :)


At least you are actually replying to my comment this time. More to the point is that you cannot Just Attack Paradi, ever. So to say that you can 'miss' JA'ing Jabroga is like saying that I can use an off element weapon with 0 grinds. Sure it can happen but that does not mean the majority of players will be doing it. Using your logic, a CAST MF's Paradi will be so weak that Jabroga will beat it every time.

1) The majority of players are using low grind, low-mid percentage weapons. They may spam Jabroga, but all they are doing is scattering enemies all over the place. If you ever sit on a heavily populated universe, you will notice that people's equipment aren't all 40%+. Jabroga requires the equipment and the ability to know when and how to use it properly. Otherwise you are like that fighgunner that uses Tornado Dance on polty. You're just flinging stuff around without a care of if you could do more damage by doing something else.

2) With a CAST Masterforce, Paradi automatically wins. They don't have access to Jabroga. Once you move past a class that has access to an art that another class does not have access to that same art, you are no longer comparing the photon arts, but the classes themselves. Neuman don't have access to Paradi, which is why I did not use a Neuman masterforce as my example. I would be comparing the races, not the unit.


We have exactly two more level cap increases planned before the supposed title update. With new arm units, set bonuses, new axes and boards, etc. all coming out in the near future there are more than two chances to increase the damage of Jabroga for your average user. Sure these take some effort to acquire but the what else are you going to do in PSU? No pain, no gain, right?

No pain, no gain, except for in the case of Paradi. You only need to level. You don't have to hunt anything new. You don't have to work on leveling it up. It comes pre-broken for the masses.


I was replying to your comment that Jabrogas was not as much of a game breker as Paradi; why are you going back to the original point all of a sudden?

LOL.


This is not a discussion about you or me, but about the average player and they die plenty often. Also, newer S3 missions are on the way and most players avoid SEED Express so I think they are already afraid of dying.

Players who "die plenty often" likely aren't doing too well with Jabroga or Paradi. They probably get killed while attempting to do Jabroga. Something they wouldn't have to worry about with Paradi should they live long enough to do it.


I'll take a Newman Fighmaster over a CAST Masterforce any time. Do you really think that Paradi alone offsets the weaknesses of a CAST Masterforce? If so, no wonder you are so biased against CASTs, your viewpoint is skewed.

No, I think cast masterforces have an out when they get into trouble that other masterforces do not. It's not about time attacks when you are playing a Masterforce. It's about protection when you get into trouble. Beast Masterforce has Vande Val. Cast Masterforce has Paradi. Where's the Human and Neuman escape button?


Paradi sends predetermined projectiles down from above. If an enemy is not under these projectiles they will not be struck in addition to being able to hit for zero damage.

:???: Jabroga sends a predetermined projectile down from above. If an enemy is not under that projectile they will not be struck. This goes back to the "Paradi has a much larger radius than Jabroga" argument. "You don't have to aim Paradi" would be another argument. Just stand in the center and press the buttons.


Sure Paradi kills most enemies and leaves the rest frozen but it still can miss; unlike Jabroga (at least pre-nerf Jabroga).

Paradi sends multiple volley's of projectiles down. I have never seen every single one of them miss. Even as a cast MF with piss poor accuracy, I have never seen Paradi miss with every single volley (yes, my cast can play MF, but he's only MF 5). If you press that button, you can be sure that every creature in that radius that can be frozen will be frozen.

If you are a Cast Fighmaster, with the current creature level if you do Paradi, you will likely kill every small or medium sized creature in the room. This is regardless of how crappy your equipment is or what level your photon arts may be.


Now for bonus time.

Steps to acquiring Paradi Cataract:

Step 1) Do "The Dark God C" once. Find out that's too much a pain as a level 20 (the first level you can equip Paradi)

Step 2) Go to "MAG C' ", find out that takes too long

Step 3) Search player shops. Paradi is about 100k last I checked. Well, that's a few runs of White Beast C, might as well spam WB until I can afford Paradi.

Step 3 alternate) Ask a high level friend to give you one.

Now getting the armor is a bit harder. 4~5 mil for a 10% serafi, but nothing nothing you can't do with a bit of saving on White Beast. Finally you have an armor and a Unit which will be your escape clause for the rest of the game (until it get's the nerf at least).

Steps to acquiring Jabroga:

Step 1) Get to level 35 so you can spam the lowest level S rank runs (Mizuraki Defense, Forested Islands, Unsafe Passage), say screw that. Freeze + Megid sucks at level 35 when you likely don't have Freeze or Vijeri resist.

Step 2) Go to "MAG C' ", wait a second... Didn't I do this while hunting Paradi, but give up because it took too long? Damn, how else can I get the 99 PA frags needed to get Jabroga? I can't ask a friend to give me the PA frags, even though they keep telling me they wish they could. Oh well, guess I'll have to level up to do PA frag runs.

Step 3) Spam White Beast until you reach level 70 when you can finally do S for PA frags... wait, that would take too long. Level 70 is a long way away and I don't want to do it 99 more times after that just to get the PA frags to use Jabroga and start leveling it from level 1. I'd be level 100 by then.

Step 4) Spam White Beast until you reach level 45 and then jump into some of the "PA frag" runs that people are doing in Mad Creatures S.

Step 5) Get your 99 Pa frags by level 50... wait, I still need to get Majarra. Spam Mad Creatures S some more until you get back up to 99 PA frags, or if you are lucky and can find someone willing to do Stolen Weapon, Cost of Research, or Lab Recovery for some quick S2 PA frag runs at a lower level, you get it done faster.

Step 6) NOW you can get Jabroga.

Step 7) Wait, I don't have an axe, well Ank Tomho and Matohonoh are pretty cheap, so I can get a 20~30% one of those pretty easily. At least I have some money from all of that spamming at WB, Mad Creatures, Cost of Research, MAG', etc. Hmm... I guess I can actually skip those axes. All of those runs leveled me up enough that I can equip Okanoh. Damn and my Cast friend's been using Paradi since he could equip that 10% Serafi-senba he got back at level 25.

Step 8 ) Damn, it's level 1? I thought this thing started off broken. Now I have to start leveling it. Oh well, at least I'll have fun knocking these enemies around until I can OHKO them. :)

[Hiero_Glyph]

Again, I am not disputing that both of them are overpowered but Paradi is quite limited in its usefulness as you can only use it every so often. Keep telling yourself that you can use it infinite times per mission but eventually you will run out of healing items and need to restock or simply get bored of the mission taking hours to finish. Such is not the case for Jabroga. More to the point is that you can finish a mission using only Jabroga, while you cannot finish a mission using only Paradi (I double-dog dare you to prove me wrong). ***imagines desturel with his tongue stuck to a flag pole.***

[Magus_84]

You're divorcing this from the reality of the situation. No one would ever try to finish a mission using only Paradi.

However, they will use it to erase spawns that would otherwise be very troublesome. There usually aren't more than 4 "hard" spawns in any given mission. Using Paradi three times wipes most of those.

The other three races cannot do that. Jabroga is part of why FM/FF are so overpowered, yes. But I bet you'll never hear a statement that says "go Cast or Beast because of Jabroga".

All the time, in threads where people are asking "what race is best for X class?", the answer is always "Cast for Paradi".

Even on AT. Even mentioned in a non-joking manner for MF.

Jabroga leads to other classes looking pathetic when used well on a well-geared character.

Paradi leads people to make Cast ATs solely for it, and then only requires two buttons and a cheapo Storm Line to wipe or severely weaken 75% of the most troublesome spawns in any given mission.

One of these is far more damaging to the diversity of the game than the other, as people's insistence on "OMG MAKE A CAST FOR PARADI" also makes the already-embattled tech damage look even weaker by comparison when the only people using it are Casts.

[Zyrusticae]

Oh, for [insert your chosen god's name here]'s sake!

Paradi needed to be nerfed because

1.) It does massive damage,
2.) Does said damage in an incredibly large radius,
3.) Freezes all the monsters in said radius,
4.) Belongs only to one race (and can be used by any class of said race),
5.) Requires very little in the way of effort to require, and
6.) Requires equally little effort to use.

Comparing it to Jabroga is entirely pointless, as it is
a.) a photon art, and
b.) usable by anyone of any race and class that can use axes.

Now shut up, both of you!

[desturel]

Oh, for [insert your chosen god's name here]'s sake!

Paradi needed to be nerfed because

1.) It does massive damage,
2.) Does said damage in an incredibly large radius,
3.) Freezes all the monsters in said radius,
4.) Belongs only to one race (and can be used by any class of said race),
5.) Requires very little in the way of effort to require, and
6.) Requires equally little effort to use.

Comparing it to Jabroga is entirely pointless, as it is
a.) a photon art, and
b.) usable by anyone of any race and class that can use axes.

Now shut up, both of you!

So you agree with me then. ;)

[Ruru]

i'd rather not get into a huge debate on whether paradi is broken or not but... i will say the damage it does is barely higher than sturm attacker. it hits half as many times as sturm for roughly 2-2.5 times the damage per hit, not overpowering by any means in the damage department. i will agree that insta-freeze and the large radius are a bit much but this IS an S rank SUV and deserves to be thought of as such. S ranks are supposed to be powerful, and this game has been broken and unbalanced long before it came out, so in this i honestly cant see the complaint.

also CASTS have had insta-kill buttons in a few situations long before paradi was invented. the SUV system has been unbalanced since this game was made. saying paradi broke CASTs is ridiculous. CASTs have been broken since this game was made. humans have nothing newms have nothing, and nanoblasts actually lower DPS because of the time it takes to transform and PA damage out does nanoblast damage easy. SUVs on the other hand cause instant damage and leave you invincible for the duration of the animation. CASTs are broken, paradi just further proves this.

[desturel]

it hits half as many times as sturm for roughly 2-2.5 times the damage per hit, not overpowering by any means in the damage department.

the SUV system has been unbalanced since this game was made.

There's a bit of disconnect in those two statements. Either it's overpowering or it's not. You are stating both.

BTW, I'm willing to argue Paradi vs. Sturm as well. 8)

Sturm misses much more often because it doesn't freeze. Freeze lowers evasion to zero and also prevents knock up. Once a creature gets frozen by Paradi, the rest of them will hit.

Sturm knocks up which causes additional hits of Sturm to miss and it doesn't freeze so it never reduces evasion to 0. A creature with high evasion can get away with only getting hit by one part of Sturm and the rest of the parts miss.

This is easily demonstrated by having a cast and a PT run the same mission. Use a Burn EX and then use Paradi.

The burn infliction is the most consistent part of Sturm and the reason why it was good even when it missed the majority of it's hits (and the preferred SUV on things like Magashi, Gol Dova and other large monsters that can burn).


saying paradi broke CASTs is ridiculous.

I never said that. Perhaps you should read over my posts again. :D

Back on the topic of class balance (this has nothing to do with CAST Supremacy), Masterforce is the only Master class without traps.

The class with the fastest and strongest status effects also has access to instant damage traps (Burn, Virus, and Poison G). The class with the highest damage potential has the ability to immobilize or disable enemies (freeze, confuse and shock G). The class with the lowest HP, lowest damage output, poor status effect infliction rate, no multi target damage, and no lock-on gets nothing.

That, of course, is fair.

[Calsetes]

Both need to be fixed, it's debatable as to how badly they screw up the game.

There, problem solved. Now can we stop having the circle argument? Step in the middle of the ring, shake hands for a good bout, and let it go. Please?

[Ruru]

paradi is not overpowering in the sense that its breaking or broke the game any further than other SUVs. the SUV system itself is overpowering in the sense that no other race can use them (sorry for clarification) also this nerf lowered paradis stamina to 3... this is no longer an S rank unit in my eyes.

i wasnt pointing the finger at you when saying "saying paradi broke CASTs is ridiculous" its a general statement to anyone thinking/saying paradi makes CASTs broken.

as for sturm vs paradi. i stopped using sturm mostly because of the 5 end paradi gives but also yes, sturm does bounce enemies making not all hits connect and can (but in my case as AF usually doesnt) hit for 0s. yes it can be argued over which does more overall damage but this debate is about paradi being so broken it needed a nerf, and in my opinion it was no more broken than the entire SUV system already was and did not deserve nerf this bad being as it is an S rank and they nerfed it down to par with A rank SUVs

also im not arguing over MF being gimp. i've already posted in this thread more than once about that and know full well (as a masterforce user myself) that MF or techers in general are falling WAY behind in the "class race"

Calsetes no one is fighting here (at least i'm not) if stating opinion or facts are not allowed here then this entire forum should be shut down. discussion and debate are healthy and no one is throwing insults yet.

[Calsetes]

I know, I was just hoping to see some other points of debate other than the paradi-jabroga debate that it has been the past day or two, that's all. Maybe argument was the wrong word to use.... circle debate?

Anyway, that's all. Keep debating if you want, you guys are at least keeping it civil, unlike other debates I've seen on here.

[Kazemi]

paradi lacks the couple second delay before and after it goes into effect on top of how the damage is inflicted so fast. its this speed coupled with power and range that makes paradi so broken. as it has been argued before, it should be either power or speed and not both. paradi ends up landing in the speed department making other SUVs more appealing to use again. and if the lowered STA boost bothers you, consider that another balance to keep SUVs from being overly broken. having to take up the extra slot is the big thing that makes SUVs from being too much so.