English teachers who force you to revise for a grade.

[furrypaws]

And not only who force you to, who judge you on the quality/quantity of your revisions. Hey revisions are fine and dandy. I can understand if a teacher suggests them, or even would like to see them. But using them for a grade?

When I write, I pretty much stare off to space and let all of my ideas form, then let phrases form to the ideas I get, then rearrange the phrases into proper English, then think about which way I want to place those sentences in order to create the best combination possible for the hardest hitting piece. While I write/type the sentences out, I check carefully to make sure I'm not using grammar incorrectly or misspelling common words. Basically, the first thing I write is normally very, very close to my final piece (these pieces normally score very well, by the way). I can handle one revision normally, but even that one revision doesn't do much. It just filters through a phrase that didn't quite make the transition from Furry-brain to regular English or an over/underused punctuation. In other words, nothing major. I might rearrange a sentence or two at most, and creating more than two new sentences is rare. I pretty much take my time to make a quality first piece, because I'm not satisfied if I just write a awful piece to be done with it.

Whether it's a good strategy or not doesn't matter. That's the only way I've learned to write well, and I don't like it when a piece turns out not so great. I write so I don't have to revise.

But that's what the teachers want, apparently. For instance, this project requires me to revise a piece that I've already revised. One revision is tough for me. Another is just plain ridiculous. I know I'm not going to do well on the project because I barely changed anything. That piece was fine the first time and as good as it would get the second. I can't do much if anything at all with the piece now, and my teacher's going to think I'm a slacker, unless I purposely trash the piece to make it look like I made it better. Which, no, I'm not going to resort to doing. I'd rather hand in a piece I know is at the top of my game with little revision than ruin it to get a grade.

I'm no good with annotations either, but at least those are fair. Those are also a major part of the grade, so I'm not going to do well on that either. =/

Hopefully my author's note will be alright.

TL;DR: Teachers would rather have you write poorly to show "improvement" than have you write a good piece.

[Kent]

It's important to realize that no piece will ever be perfect. I think this is really the reason for requiring revisions of work on part of the teacher (though to be honest, it's a pretty moronic thing to request if the paper in question scored, say, a 100).

When I was taking my college English classes, we basically just had to write a paper every couple weeks, typically on subjects of our choice... But each class period, the teacher would be available to read through your current paper and make suggestions on grammatical and other errors. However, submitting your paper for review prior to the turn-in time was never a requirement (and you weren't allowed to submit the final one early, as it'd just result in a reviewed version of whatever you submitted, regardless of its finalized status).

Though it can be very frustrating to be doing good work and the teacher is required to cater to the lowest common denominator, it's an unfortunate thing that they can't just "excuse" good students for being good - that'd be unfair to the not-so-good students.

This brought up another good practice that a lot of the classes at my college implemented - the good students were encouraged to, after they were finished with their work, help out other students. This is, of course, under the assumption that you're not giving the other student your work to pass off as theirs, and you're actually contributing to their learning, rather than giving them what they want to pass. I found it to be really effective for the other students, when they were getting mentored by the students who had a more natural affinity for the subjects at hand. And, of course, it got me a swally of staff recommendations for the Teacher's Assistant position.

[Nitro Vordex]

They do it because they're trying to prevent you from writing horribly. Understanding your mistakes are a big part of life, and you don't understand them, you won't learn from them. Don't learn from them, and you're bound to make them again. Revising your paper is important, as an written paper can ALWAYS be better, no matter what.

As for having a revision as a grade, I can see the point of it. They want you to actually try to make it better, not just put an apostrophe in "you're" and move on. When you turn in it, it shows how much thought you actually put into the paper, instead of just writing it down and keep on going. Often, when you look at a paper, or even something you typed a second time, you can already see where things could be improved. For instance, in my second sentence of this paragraph, I saw that I had typed and twice. (Oops). As a result, I caught it and corrected it, instead of flying through this post.

Put it simply, revising is important. For a grade? Sure, I can see why a teacher would do that.

[furrypaws]

Yes, it's important. But that's not really what I was complaining about.

If it's going to be graded, at least don't just grade it based on how many revisions there are. The way I write, I do most of my revisions as I go along. I carefully think over every sentence and how it will fit into the body of each paragraph and about the paragraph and how it will fit into the whole essay. Normally what comes out is close to what is done because of this. (Normally, because lately all we've been doing are two-three page assignments). My pieces are nowhere near perfect, but they're normally as close as I can get them to my best after my first draft, assuming I have ample time.

I also hate writing on a timelimit (like hour time limit, not days time limit).

I just think that if I feel a piece is pretty much as good as it will get, it's weird that I should need to make it worse to "make it better" all for a grade.

[Solstis]

I remember thinking that revisions were a complete waste of time; I mean, I spent so much time on the essay, how much better can it get? Grading it was even more insulting!

I wish I had paid a little more attention to them and put in a little more effort. I'm great essay writer, but, honestly, great is *average* in a University setting (depending on major/focus).

I do remember my teachers leaving revisions as an occasional option, and I don't recall a time that I didn't find some embarrassing error that I had previously overlooked.

Summary: I find your lack of humility disturbing. This isn't classism. It's a chance for you to further grow your concept.

Also, I probably made a few typos, and a sentence or two may be just plain awful. Unlike Nitro, I didn't really look over what I wrote.

[KodiaX987]

It's a double-edged sword. On some, it'll work something fierce. On others, it's just a royal pain in the ass.

My own stint in an American high school has made me witness teacher habits that didn't make sense in my eyes - namely giving extra credit for pretty much any trivial thing, from doing some sort of presentation to bringing a box of tissues, and grading on note-taking.

The latter bit me in the ass. In a particular class, the teacher would announce, without warning, that she was picking up our notebooks and grading for a particular date. Problem: she graded on the one class I had missed during the term. Instant zero. No chance of appeal.

To be honest, I do not find it worthwhile to have a class force a habit into you. Suggest it, mention it, but don't ever force it. Those who want to do it will do it naturally. Those who do not will not, and if you force them to, they will seek every possible means to get out of it somehow. A school isn't a babysitting service - if someone wants to fail, he will fail and that'll be the end of it. If someone declines to use this or that methodology, that's his choice and he'll just have to deal with the consequences. Maybe he'll do fine. Maybe he'll crash and burn. But it's not up to the school to decide which way to do his job.

Hell, I remember back in elementary school - if you wrote a text, you were forced to do a first draft, and then your final draft. The day we got computers, I jumped on 'em straight away, mainly because I could print my first draft, get it corrected, then come back on the computer and change what I needed instead of rewriting the whole God damn thing with a fucking pen.

[furrypaws]

I remember thinking that revisions were a complete waste of time; I mean, I spent so much time on the essay, how much better can it get? Grading it was even more insulting!

I wish I had paid a little more attention to them and put in a little more effort. I'm great essay writer, but, honestly, great is *average* in a University setting (depending on major/focus).

I do remember my teachers leaving revisions as an occasional option, and I don't recall a time that I didn't find some embarrassing error that I had previously overlooked.

Summary: I find your lack of humility disturbing. This isn't classism. It's a chance for you to further grow your concept.

Also, I probably made a few typos, and a sentence or two may be just plain awful. Unlike Nitro, I didn't really look over what I wrote.

I'm sorry if I sound stuck up. But I do revisions while I work. That's how I work, and I can't work any other way. I've tried, and the final project is always worse than if I were to just think things through like I always do and take four hours writing it. I like taking my time and making it as good as possible the first time through.

I get that revisions are good. I get that they can work, and they do work. But often times they don't work very well for me, and the point of the rant is that teachers will force them upon me whether they will work for me or they won't. And if it's an instance where they don't, then my end product is not as good. Do you see where I'm going with this? I've written pieces where I had to do revisions and ones where I didn't, and almost always I wrote better on the ones where revisions weren't forced. It's like an art teacher that always tries to force you to paint or sculpt a certain way. Just because it works for many doesn't mean it works for all.

[Powder Keg]

I was the Mozart of my English classes....my rough draft was my final draft, and I still would get an A all the time. ^^

[Rasputin]

Mozart never got graded, silly.

[Nitro Vordex]

Well, while we're making obscure analogies here...

I'm the Picasso of English classes.

[Powder Keg]

Mozart never got graded, silly.

The point is, the first draft was acceptable.

[Outrider]

The point is, the first draft was acceptable.

You might want to look up for a moment and watch the joke sail over your head.

[Nitro Vordex]

It's far too high to be noticed. :wacko:

[Powder Keg]

Nah, it was just so bad that I didn't notice.

;)

[Nitro Vordex]

I don't get it.
FOCL.

[Powder Keg]

The ;) should've been enough to say that.

[Sayara]

Look at it this way, you're getting EASY points. Thats like signing your name on a piece of paper easy.

I actually approve of the idea, it'll help people who had lackluster paper scores get an improvement, and further boost people who had great marks already. And in the long run it'll help you too.

[Rasputin]

YOU BEST NOT BE CALLING MY JOKES BAD

[furrypaws]

Look at it this way, you're getting EASY points. Thats like signing your name on a piece of paper easy.

I actually approve of the idea, it'll help people who had lackluster paper scores get an improvement, and further boost people who had great marks already. And in the long run it'll help you too.

I still can't get over the whole "write a worse piece to get a better grade" theory though. The way I write, I actually need to go back in and ruin my piece to get the extra points. That makes no sense. It'd be like purposely running a 7:00 mile when you can run a 5:00 at the beginning of the year so you can show "improvement" when you run a 4:50 mile.

[Blitzkommando]

It's a double-edged sword. On some, it'll work something fierce. On others, it's just a royal pain in the ass.

My own stint in an American high school has made me witness teacher habits that didn't make sense in my eyes - namely giving extra credit for pretty much any trivial thing, from doing some sort of presentation to bringing a box of tissues, and grading on note-taking.

The latter bit me in the ass. In a particular class, the teacher would announce, without warning, that she was picking up our notebooks and grading for a particular date. Problem: she graded on the one class I had missed during the term. Instant zero. No chance of appeal.

To be honest, I do not find it worthwhile to have a class force a habit into you. Suggest it, mention it, but don't ever force it. Those who want to do it will do it naturally. Those who do not will not, and if you force them to, they will seek every possible means to get out of it somehow. A school isn't a babysitting service - if someone wants to fail, he will fail and that'll be the end of it. If someone declines to use this or that methodology, that's his choice and he'll just have to deal with the consequences. Maybe he'll do fine. Maybe he'll crash and burn. But it's not up to the school to decide which way to do his job.

Hell, I remember back in elementary school - if you wrote a text, you were forced to do a first draft, and then your final draft. The day we got computers, I jumped on 'em straight away, mainly because I could print my first draft, get it corrected, then come back on the computer and change what I needed instead of rewriting the whole God damn thing with a fucking pen.

This. This is the point of the rant.

Contrary to what so many people think, not everyone works, behaves, or constructs their projects the same way as their peers. Some people need countless revisions to build up a paper to its final form. Others, such as myself, spend so much time and effort in the first run that beyond there simply being a 'rough' and 'final' draft there is no room for a middle variant. Call it unfair, call it arrogant, call them assholes or what have you, some people simply write well with little revision work. How different is that concept to those who can literally look at a complex math problem and can simply spout the answer without writing out the 'draft work'? Is it unfair that these people have this capability to 'skip' the middle step (writing the problem out)? Should you prevent students from entering math competitions because they use some sort of mental methodology to complete the problems faster, and easier simply because they don't slow themselves down to write it out?

Simply, people aren't equal in capability or ability. Group treatment is one of the major flaws in the public education system, that lack of understanding the individual's needs and methods is harmful. Forcing students to go to inane levels of work over something that they quite frankly are well beyond the capability of doing holds them back from progressing at their own rates. Just because one individual needs five revisions to get it right doesn't mean that their peers need that many. Some may need seven, whilst others just one. Forcing a single methodology, rather than letting the student determine their own methods, is most simply thought control. It's saying that it's not the end answer that is important, but that the method to getting the answer is the most important part. And, unless my grasp of the purpose of writing is completely and horribly wrong, that's completely counter to what writing, and especially creative writing, in fact is. The purpose of a paper is to bring home a point to the reader. The reader doesn't need, nor want, to know how many revisions it took but just that the end product is worthwhile to read. It's suppose to be a liberal arts class and controlling the writing methodology is hardly free at all.

[Solstis]

Unlike mathematics, there is no absolute in regards (generally speaking) to writing.

You always need one more revision. If you've reached the absolute essence of the topic, then go ahead and slap on your crown, 'cause omniscience is just around the corner.

[Blitzkommando]

I do believe your location is almost your situation, excepting that you simply missed the point.

[Nitro Vordex]

Except your the one missing it.

If you ruin your own paper, that's on you. But revisions are necessary. Grade required for the revision is up to the teacher.

tl;dr Get over it.

[SStrikerR]

I agree with furry on this. Why do I need to revise my papers?
Me: Here's my rouch copy.
Teacher: Ok, now revise it for your final copy.
Me: *types up same exact paper and hands it in*
Teacher: Great! 94%


Simple. It's not like the teacher memorized your rough copy.

[Blitzkommando]

Except your the one missing it.

If you ruin your own paper, that's on you. But revisions are necessary. Grade required for the revision is up to the teacher.

tl;dr Get over it.

Just curious, but how does one improve upon a paper already deemed perfect by the instructor? Do you give some bullshit grade of higher than 100%? I've had numerous papers come back with a perfect score only to have the teacher say, "Now, revise that and make it better for your second final paper." How the hell does one have two final papers in the first place? And, again, how the hell does one improve on what was already graded as perfect?

As I said, albeit in a slightly more polite way, my issue is with making bullshit assignments in order to 'equalize' the students. The problem is that, as stated, some people are inherently better writers than others and simply don't need to do four versions of the same paper. Again, as I stated, I can see the instructor wanting both a rough draft and a final variant. But to necessitate two additional 'drafts' between has never made any sense to me. There are a lot of people who do all major revisions after the critiquing of the rough draft has been made as to how that particular instructor interprets their personal view of structure.

Which brings home my basic point about any and all writing courses: they should be the least structured courses as writing is such a personal thing. Forcing group-think when writing is the quickest way to insure the 'creative' protion of writing will disappear. Forcing students to change their habits on how they write a successful paper to meet some asinine course requirements does more damage than anything. It creates tunnel vision within the student as to how proper writing should be done and that is, to me as someone who grew up with a love of writing, just a travesty. I've also seen the multiple-draft approach as a method used by instructors to mold the thinking of a student to another direction, away from their initial argument which is ethically wrong. It is the job of an English teacher to ascertain the writing ability of the student, not whether or not they feel the same way about the same subject as the student.

To avoid a long story I'll simply state that I've had numerous narcissistic English teachers/professors whom themselves were poor writers (two had difficulty reading aloud articles they found, tripping up on words such as hominem while the third had no notion of the meaning of the word bulbous amongst other glaring issues). They used the additional drafts, in my experience, to attack arguments made by the students and not to critique their writing style. I've found that the most controlled and least free-thinking classes I've had have been English classes with even math classess allowing more freedom of methodology. As I mentioned, this is an issue of blocking different methods of thinking and different writing methodologies and not of the merits of draft work. Writing, again, is just about the most personal form of expression out there. Forcing students to change how they do their writing in order to meet some sort of asinine goal is outright disgusting.

Oh, and by the by, I realize from your snarky remark that you didn't read what I wrote and instead just spouted off some diatribe from earlier in the thread. That's fine, but really I don't think my posts are all that long to read though it does make my view of the argument rather entertaining. Oh, and a word of advice, it's "you're" not "your". I see those words confused far too often.

[SStrikerR]

I thought you're was you are? Or is you're used for posession too?

[Blitzkommando]

Except your the one missing it.

Should be, "Except you're the one missing it."

[Solstis]

Just curious, but how does one improve upon a paper already deemed perfect by the instructor? Do you give some bullshit grade of higher than 100%? I've had numerous papers come back with a perfect score only to have the teacher say, "Now, revise that and make it better for your second final paper." How the hell does one have two final papers in the first place? And, again, how the hell does one improve on what was already graded as perfect?


I agree with this point (and those that follow), but I don't recall that being a part of the original discussion. Furry's comments basically amounted to him believing that his technique was infallible. Granted, if he or anyone else received a perfect grade, forcing a revision might be silly, and it would be in everyone's best interests if the teacher just let the ideal of homogeny go.

I don't believe that the discussion was about the dumbing down of the education system and the populace until other people brought it up.

I have also met a fair amount of dimwitted professors and teachers, and have become pretty cynical about the system in general. Can't say I didn't enjoy my ride through it, though.

[KodiaX987]

I revise paragraph by paragraph and make corrections as I need. The only reason I do a final draft in these situations is because I need to submit something in pen rather than pencil (and even so, during my last semesters, I did it straight to pen and did more than fine already.)

Telling me that I need to show obvious improvement between draft and final is pretty much telling me to un-learn what works in my case and suck on purpose.

[Powder Keg]

Should be, "Except you're the one missing it."

No no no, no....that was probably a joke too.

[furrypaws]

I agree with this point (and those that follow), but I don't recall that being a part of the original discussion. Furry's comments basically amounted to him believing that his technique was infallible. Granted, if he or anyone else received a perfect grade, forcing a revision might be silly, and it would be in everyone's best interests if the teacher just let the ideal of homogeny go.

I don't believe that the discussion was about the dumbing down of the education system and the populace until other people brought it up.

I have also met a fair amount of dimwitted professors and teachers, and have become pretty cynical about the system in general. Can't say I didn't enjoy my ride through it, though.

Uh...no. Please some of my comments.


And not only who force you to, bwho judge you on the quality/quantity of your revisions. Hey revisions are fine and dandy. I can understand if a teacher suggests them, or even would like to see them. But using them for a grade?
^There. Right there. Revisions are fine. But the way I write, there are close to none. I do them as I write. =/


Whether it's a good strategy or not doesn't matter. That's the only way I've learned to write well
^Not about my writing strategy being perfect.


One revision is tough for me. Another is just plain ridiculous.
^I have trouble with revisions, especially in excess.


My pieces are nowhere near perfect, but they're normally as close as I can get them to my best after my first draft,
...
I just think that if I feel a piece is pretty much as good as it will get, it's weird that I should need to make it worse to "make it better" all for a grade.
^I think you're getting the point. Hopefully. But I'll restate it.

I don't care if revisions work for you. They don't for me. When I write to allow for revisions, the end piece is worse than if I don't. I have tried both, I have seen the effects of both, and I have seen the end products of both.

So grading my piece on how many revisions there are would be like grading me in gym class on how I improve over the year on something like a mile time if I'm already doing fairly well for the average Joe. If he/she (the English teacher) wrote that my piece was excellent with a beautiful cadence and gave it a 95 the first time around, how the heck does she expect me to revise it besides what I've already said (please don't make me requote that).

You're misunderstanding what I said completely, basically.

[Solstis]

You're misunderstanding what I said completely, basically.

I believe that I am fully capable of that.

[Rasputin]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080324114609AAtXbcG

Q: Please define pretentious?

A's:

Paula, Pretentious can be defined as:
- claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
or
- making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious. See Synonyms at showy.
or
- ostentatious: intended to attract notice and impress others; "an ostentatious sable coat"

-----

hillary clinton

-----

Fake. Pretending to be something or someone you're not.

-----

A pretentious person is one who believes that their upbringing, social status, and personal background are superior to those of others. The pretentious person does not consider alternate points of view, but rather (often silently but noticeably) assumes that their own ideas and set beliefs are the most correct.

-----

putting on airs; false sophistication.

-----

pre·ten·tious
Pronunciation:
\pri-ˈten(t)-shəs\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
French prétentieux, from prétention pretension, from Medieval Latin pretention-, pretentio, from Latin praetendere
Date:
1832
1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts> b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>
2: making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : ambitious <the pretentious daring of the Green Mountain Boys in crossing the lake — American Guide Series: Vermont>
synonyms see showy
— pre·ten·tious·ly adverb
— pre·ten·tious·ness noun

-----

:disapprove:

[Nitro Vordex]

See also: Head up ones ass. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=head%20up%20ones%20ass)

[furrypaws]

I don't know how many more times I need to say this. I'm pretty close to typing in all caps and bold if that'll get my point across.

My writing is not wonderful. It is not great. It is nothing special, nothing out of the ordinary. It is probably no better than your writing and probably worse. But it as good as it will get. And it is that way because I write the way I write. When I write to purposely allow there to be revisions, the end piece is worse than if I don't.

Revisions make me write worse. I'm not being lazy, I'm not lying. On pieces where I have left room for revisions, the end piece (after revisions of course) is worse than when I write it the way I do.

But, I forgot. My brain works the same way yours does. I write the exact same style as you. What will work for you will work exactly the same for me, because we are actually identical in everything we do.

Look, I'm done with this. Maybe I'll post again if you go beyond the same "UR STOOPID AND ARROGANTZ" point you've been shoving in my face the whole time.

[Rasputin]

I don't think you seem to understand. The point is not that you're arrogant or stupid; the point is that in Forest Gump Tom Hanks never gave up. He bought a shrimping boat and shrimped just because his friend told him that that's what they were going to do. He did what he was told. Did he question it? No.

I think I made my point clear. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Missing%20the%20point)

[furrypaws]

I used up all of my brain juice on the exam last week. I'm afraid you'll have to forgive me. ._.

[Outrider]

My writing is not wonderful. It is not great. It is nothing special, nothing out of the ordinary. It is probably no better than your writing and probably worse. But it as good as it will get. And it is that way because I write the way I write. When I write to purposely allow there to be revisions, the end piece is worse than if I don't.

I mean, I think that paragraph alone shows that you should try and do revisions when asked. Through revisions, your writing could become wonderful/great/special/out of the ordinary.

Revisions generally are difficult, especially when you're making changes that don't necessarily make your story/essay/whatever better - they just make it different.

Yes, sometimes your first draft is excellent. Sometimes you'll make a revision that actually ends up worse, but that's all part of the process. (And it's reasons like this that I agree with a lot of you in that your teachers shouldn't be assuming that your second draft is automatically going to be better, especially when it comes to narrative writing, where you should be allowed to experiment more.) I remember in high school that I sometimes had teachers that would request a second draft, but we would be able to choose which one would be our final draft. I appreciated that, and I think that's more fair than having to make your first draft "better."

[Unit D79]

hey be glad your teacher doesnt rip it up in your face if its a D or below. well shredded actually but still. you cant revise what has been shredded. T-T

[Feelmirath]

Uh...no. Please some of my comments.

:wacko: