They told me:They will beat you till you drop!

[ShinMaruku]

You would not get away with this!
http://i.livescience.com/images/BLN_0p14_15.jpg

[astuarlen]

You would not get away with this!


I wouldn't under those conditions, but--lo!--circumstances have changed, and I find myself in a spot of surprising success.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

Bring it.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/VanGarrett/doomsday3bc5572gq7.jpg

[Randomness]

What the mod said.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Death_star1.png

[ShinMaruku]

Sodam Yatt
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/15297/796797-sodam_yat_super.jpg

[Randomness]

Um... yeah...

*fires the laser*

[ShinMaruku]

You have no idea who Sodam Yat is do you?

[Outrider]

Yeah, as far as Deus Ex Machina characters go, there's very little that should really be able to take down Sodom Yat.

He's a Daxamite (essentially a Kryptonian but they gain/lose their powers much quicker through sunlight, and instead of Kryptonite they can't be near Lead), plus he's a Green Lantern (given the ability to do essentially anything based on willpower and/or the writer's discretion) as well as the source of the ION power (basically some entity they introduced into the Green Lantern canon a few years back that gave an earlier character God-like power, but again, this is based on the writer's discretion.)

So even though Daxamite's have some weaknesses, they're all negated through his other powers.



But he's a real wanker, so let's vote for Doomsday.

[TalHex]

>.> man and I thought random had a godmodding complex...

I'd rather have the world end

[Randomness]

Yeah, as far as Deus Ex Machina characters go, there's very little that should really be able to take down Sodom Yat.

He's a Daxamite (essentially a Kryptonian but they gain/lose their powers much quicker through sunlight, and instead of Kryptonite they can't be near Lead), plus he's a Green Lantern (given the ability to do essentially anything based on willpower and/or the writer's discretion) as well as the source of the ION power (basically some entity they introduced into the Green Lantern canon a few years back that gave an earlier character God-like power, but again, this is based on the writer's discretion.)

So even though Daxamite's have some weaknesses, they're all negated through his other powers.


But he's a real wanker, so let's vote for Doomsday.

Oh. I'm playing the Sun Crusher card then. *watches the system's star go supernova*

If that's not enough... well... I can always use Centerpoint to punt the guy into a supermassive black hole.


>.> man and I thought random had a godmodding complex...

I'd rather have the world end

Don't worry. I save it for Shin threads. For a reason.

[TalHex]

just free Nyx, that will fix it >.>

[Outrider]

Oh. I'm playing the Sun Crusher card then. *watches the system's star go supernova*

If that's not enough... well... I can always use Centerpoint to punt the guy into a supermassive black hole.

I mean, Star Wars is hardly the place to go for overpowered technology. The Sun Crusher is basically just a really strong ship and the Centerpoint lets you affect gravity and shift planets. There's really nothing there that a guy who can warp time and space would have trouble dealing with.

Again, this is assuming Sodam Yatt's powers are similar to what Kyle Rayner's powers were when he was the first Ion, but as always, that's based on how overpowered the comic writer wants him to be in the given story. But still, you see base level Green Lanerns (Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, etc.) moving planets, containing supernovas, dismantling powerful space ships in any number of Green Lantern or JLA stories. Odds are something as OP'd as a Daxamite Ion would be able to do something about a giant space station or a super space ship.

Really, nothing short of someone like Mister Mxyzptlk (a 5th dimensional imp that, well... well, he can pretty much do anything he wants) could really stop a character at that level.

The thing you have to understand about most superhero comics (but DC Comics in general) is that they're always thinking up some new impossible way for their characters to survive against insurmountable odds. I mean, the last big DC cross over, Final Crisis, ended with Superman restarting the universe by whistling.

These writers are the original godmodders.

[ShinMaruku]

Sodam Yatt as Ion is a bit stronger than Kyle as Iron he beat the hell out of superboy-prime (Essintailly a Pre-crisis superman) now he did not win but Superboy-prime is a goddamn Superman and we already know that nothing short of Lucifer MorningStar and God can stop them. (Funny thing is they won't fundamental force of the universe thing, you can't kill Superman or Darkseid)

He also reignited stars and recreated a star system.

[Outrider]

Sodam Yatt as Ion is a bit stronger than Kyle as Iron he beat the hell out of superboy-prime (Essintailly a Pre-crisis superman) now he did not win but Superboy-prime is a goddamn Superman and we already know that nothing short of Lucifer MorningStar and God can stop them. (Funny thing is they won't fundamental force of the universe thing, you can't kill Superman or Darkseid)

He also reignited stars and recreated a star system.

Yes, but Kyle Ion did a lot more indirect stuff - he was apparently omniscient, he was able to duplicate himself, and he was capable of bending time and space.

Geoff Johns has never been a particular subtle writer, so he tends to go for the direct "WHO CAN PUNCH MOAR" stories, hence why we see Yat as simply a powerful fighter against Superboy Prime, but not really using most of the other Ion powers.

Plus, the second time Kyle was Ion, he didn't seem to be much more than just an uber-powerful Green Lantern - so it's entirely possible that Kyle's earlier god-like powers not only came from the Ion force, but also from his absorption of the entirety of Oa's central power battery.

Yeah, the whole idea of "Paralax is an evil space bug entity" and "Ion is a good space whale entity" kind of makes no sense when you try to consider previous stories. Then again, that's generally the case with such long-term collaborative efforts as modern superhero comics, but still - THANKS A LOT, GEOFF JOHNS.

[ShinMaruku]

They Kyle Ion is differnt from the Yatt Ion too they are not nessiarily the same thing, the reason why Yatt is stronger is because as a base he's stornger than Kyle and what's gone on with him and what not.

[Outrider]

Yeah, but the point is that Kyle was actually the one who was significantly stronger. I'll say this again - he had God-like powers. I'm talking about when Kyle was starring in the main Green Lantern book, like six or seven years ago. When they first introduced the Ion persona: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Rayner#Ion

All Sodam has done is punch hard. I'm trying to point out that Geoff Johns has written Ion characters (both Kyle and Sodam Yatt) as significantly weaker, but this could be for a variety of in-universe reasons.

[Shadowpawn]

Franklin Richards

*walks away*

(Pre Ultimate Nullifier of course.)

[ShinMaruku]

Franklin Richards

*walks away*

(Pre Ultimate Nullifier of course.)

Morning Star>Richards

[Outrider]

Franklin Richards

*walks away*

(Pre Ultimate Nullifier of course.)


DAMNIT.

I forgot about him.

Thanks a lot, man. Thanks a lot.

[ShinMaruku]

Lucifer is much mightier than Richards, he out does Thanos.
Half of his victories are with his wits, never mind his power.

[Randomness]

Hmm... can shift space-time... versus a cluster of black holes...

Honestly, that would be an interesting contest. Also, being in the center of a supermassive is probably bad for your concentration. (Also, that's about the only thing that can break the Sun Crusher)

You know, if it's all mind-based, I could just say force-based mind-wipe ftw.

[ShinMaruku]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/13181/289661-90684-arisia.JPG

[Outrider]

Hmm... can shift space-time... versus a cluster of black holes...

Honestly, that would be an interesting contest. Also, being in the center of a supermassive is probably bad for your concentration. (Also, that's about the only thing that can break the Sun Crusher)

You know, if it's all mind-based, I could just say force-based mind-wipe ftw.

Yeah, that uh... wouldn't... do anything?

I'm not sure you're actually reading what I'm saying. Okay, look, let's use a metaphor:

http://www.movies-seivom.org/DaffyPainted2.jpg

Basically, a fully-powered Daxamite Ion character is the paintbrush.

Pretty much anybody or anything else is Daffy Duck. Especially anything from the Star Wars universe, which is - all things considered - a fairly down-to-earth space fantasy universe.

[ShinMaruku]

An apt analogy

[Randomness]

Yeah, that uh... wouldn't... do anything?

I'm not sure you're actually reading what I'm saying. Okay, look, let's use a metaphor:

http://www.movies-seivom.org/DaffyPainted2.jpg

Basically, a fully-powered Daxamite Ion character is the paintbrush.

Pretty much anybody or anything else is Daffy Duck. Especially anything from the Star Wars universe, which is - all things considered - a fairly down-to-earth space fantasy universe.

I don't recall you saying anything about defenses against mental attacks.

Also, do their powers allow them to alter/protect the composition of their body? (Also, I don't recall anything about blocking attacks that form behind their defenses... like just pinching a few key arteries) I realize you're trying to say nothing in the Star Wars universe can do anything... but I think Jacen on his best day would win. (Mostly, by turning the guy's blood into a thousand different insanely-lethal poisons)

[Outrider]

I don't recall you saying anything about defenses against mental attacks.

Also, do their powers allow them to alter/protect the composition of their body? (Also, I don't recall anything about blocking attacks that form behind their defenses... like just pinching a few key arteries) I realize you're trying to say nothing in the Star Wars universe can do anything... but I think Jacen on his best day would win. (Mostly, by turning the guy's blood into a thousand different insanely-lethal poisons)

Well, again, it's a matter of will-power. If they want a barrier that's impenetrable to mind attacks or anything like that, it simply is, so long as they have the will power for it.

And that's just a regular Green Lantern. I'm not kidding when I say they downright cheat.

But there's also the fact that a Daxamite (and potentially, a Green Lantern) can move at just below the speed of light, so uh... yeah.

Like I said - Comic book writers were godmodding before it was cool.

[ShinMaruku]

Also by the simple fact of what Yatt goes through he has greta will power, add that with the fact that Kryptonians (and by the way Daxamietes) are suerperior to the normal races, that gives him more will power than the average lantern.

[Randomness]

Also by the simple fact of what Yatt goes through he has greta will power, add that with the fact that Kryptonians (and by the way Daxamietes) are suerperior to the normal races, that gives him more will power than the average lantern.

Last I checked, Superman didn't have superhuman willpower. Actually, I've never heard of that as a superpower :P.

But... if a lantern doesn't expect an attack, or doesn't know some type of attack exists, its very hard to defend against it, right? (Btw, Jacen on his best day would probably count as a god or demigod... for the 5 seconds it lasts) That's why I figure certain uses of the force are possible... if said lantern doesn't know the guy packs mental attacks... there's a chance his mind could be shattered before he could defend. Same for the whole turn-blood-to-poison trick. (Not to mention invisibility, and the quintessential Jedi mind-trick...) Actually, is there any instance of a lantern using their power to defend their mind?

[Outrider]

Last I checked, Superman didn't have superhuman willpower. Actually, I've never heard of that as a superpower :P.

But... if a lantern doesn't expect an attack, or doesn't know some type of attack exists, its very hard to defend against it, right? (Btw, Jacen on his best day would probably count as a god or demigod... for the 5 seconds it lasts) That's why I figure certain uses of the force are possible... if said lantern doesn't know the guy packs mental attacks... there's a chance his mind could be shattered before he could defend. Same for the whole turn-blood-to-poison trick. (Not to mention invisibility, and the quintessential Jedi mind-trick...) Actually, is there any instance of a lantern using their power to defend their mind?

I don't recall any Jedi or Sith having anything near "Godlike" powers, but I've only read a handful of Star Wars books. At best, I can recall them yanking Star Destroyers out of space or things like that. I've love to hear some examples of their omnipotence, though.

As for the mental protection thing, I can't stress enough that it's been stated multiple times in the comic canon that a GL ring can do anything its user wills it to, but yes, there have been specific instances where they've blocked mental manipulation. The 13th bullet point in this link mentions mental "plugs" to defend against that type of attack, and the footnote says it's from an issue of 52: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern#Powers_and_abilities I don't actually remember that, but I do have 52, so I can go back and check what in the world they're talking about.

This entire conversation is bringing back memories of arguing Goku vs. Superman back in Middle School. (Goku would win, by the way.)

But just to mess with everyone, I'd like to throw Superman Prime (from DC 1 Million) into the mix:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/30154/607595-superman_one_million_super.jpg

He's the original Superman after having lived in the sun for 800,000+ years, plus he's got some 5th dimensional powers (5th dimensional beings being able to manipulate the 1st-4th dimensions however they want to), AND he's got a Green Lantern ring.

Oh, Grant Morrison, you crazy SOB.

[Randomness]

I don't recall any Jedi or Sith having anything near "Godlike" powers, but I've only read a handful of Star Wars books. At best, I can recall them yanking Star Destroyers out of space or things like that. I've love to hear some examples of their omnipotence, though.

As for the mental protection thing, I can't stress enough that it's been stated multiple times in the comic canon that a GL ring can do anything its user wills it to, but yes, there have been specific instances where they've blocked mental manipulation. The 13th bullet point in this link mentions mental "plugs" to defend against that type of attack, and the footnote says it's from an issue of 52: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern#Powers_and_abilities I don't actually remember that, but I do have 52, so I can go back and check what in the world they're talking about.


Alright. By godlike jedi, I'm specifically referring to Jacen at the end of New Jedi Order. Basically, he becomes one with the force for a couple minutes. And the nutcase he's fighting... well... ends up dead from a thousand poisons. Jacen basically transmutes the guy's blood. At the time, he had basically unlimited amounts of power to manipulate, being able to draw on the entirety of the force. So yes, I would put that down as godly power.

Basically, given Jacen's abilities (basically every force discipline, ever...), I think he could easily ambush someone, then kill them by cutting some arteries. Can lantern rings diagnose their user? (For that matter, can they be destroyed?) Another interesting possibility would be Darth Nihilus out of KotoR II, since the guy can literally drain the life force of his enemies (On a planetary scale, no less).

Ultimately, my argument is that unless the lantern knows an attack is possible, they can't defend against it. (Unless you're going to tell me they can use the ring with their subconscious mind or something, but a willpower based effect implies active use) So, theoretically, if they're completely sure of their safety, a sniper rifle should do them in if its an ambush. (Note: Jacen can become invisible, even to jedi masters)

In summary, I remain convinced that in a free-form engagement, Jacen (at the height of his power) would win via surprise. (Also, he could probably break the ring, too)

Now, Superman Prime... that might pose a problem. Well, Jacen on Yavin IV might be able to do something. (Yavin IV's temples being an elaborate amplifier for force usage... leading to random, average jedi chucking a star destroyer across a system... then dying)

Though, as you've pointed out, comic book writers are really into godmodding it seems. Can't conclude a story without 100 deus ex machinas?

[ShinMaruku]

I'd think Superman would be Goku if he cut loose.
That said Don't bring in Superman Prime. He's OP beyond OP

Morrison really does the Godmoding you seen what he did with Jean right?
She reset the future. XD

[Outrider]

Alright. By godlike jedi, I'm specifically referring to Jacen at the end of New Jedi Order. Basically, he becomes one with the force for a couple minutes. And the nutcase he's fighting... well... ends up dead from a thousand poisons. Jacen basically transmutes the guy's blood. At the time, he had basically unlimited amounts of power to manipulate, being able to draw on the entirety of the force. So yes, I would put that down as godly power.

According to Wookiepedia, he's basically able to play around with the timeline a bit, though it hardly sounds godlike. Of course, the entire Yuuzhan Vong saga was basically a bunch of writers going "Nuh uh" whenever somebody came up with an easy and obvious way the Vong could be defeated, so I wouldn't be shocked if George Lucas himself was introduced into that storyline as an Ultra Jedi (that's one step above a Super Jedi but below an XTREEM Jedi, FYI.)

But yes, a Green Lantern ring can tell a user they're in danger and what's wrong without them expressly requesting such information. I believe the list of power ring abilities I linked to explained as much. Also, when a GL has their ring on, they're covered by a power shield, protecting them from harm.

It's, uh... it's still not really a contest.

I'm still not understanding how a Jedi could even sneak up on a Daxamite who could not only literally see him coming miles away but would be able to see the heat coming off his body or the radiation surrounding his ship as it approached him. That's ignoring the fact that with a Green Lantern ring he could basically think of creating a device that reveals all forms of invisibility and it would suddenly exist.

Or jeez - he could just create a portal to draw in hundreds of ysalamiri around Jason, negating any connection to the Force he has.

Which is assuming that a lightsaber or his assorted force abilities could even penetrate the initial force field.

The question would be to ask how Jacen got killed if he was so powerful, but that's the other fun thing about comics - as omnipotent as a character is, sometimes they're just suddenly weak. In Identity Crisis, you see Kyle Rayner get his hand broken by a regular non-powered human. See, comics will hit both ends of the spectrum within a single story sometimes - they'll show their hero as far weaker than they should be followed by insanely powerful.

God, this is possibly the geekiest conversation anybody has ever had ever. It's definitely in the same realm of bad as when I used to be on AOL and somebody in a chat room said the main character from Legend of Dragoon could defeat Vegeta from Dragonball Z because he had a limit break that could "blow up a planet." Which was just bizarre, seeing as that's the first thing you see Vegeta do in the anime, when he's at his very weakest.

[Randomness]

Well, the problem with all those lantern abilities... the guy has to think of doing it. Without having any prior indicator that it might be necessary. That's the whole point of an ambush.

You might want to show me the wookiepedia article you're referencing, because I'm talking about Jacen's absolute pinnacle of strength, which lasted for about a single chapter in a single book. (I don't recall offhand the trigger, but at that point, he did display a vastly increased mental capacity, semi-omniscience, effective omnipotence, etc. He probably could have moved planets with the force, without difficulty. I'd have to find the book for the description.)

Ultimately, my argument is that someone cannot be vigilant 100% of the time, and Jacen has crazy stealth abilities. Oh, and I don't recall lanterns being big on preemptive strikes for suspected hostile intent. Unless you're going to tell me that they just read everyone's mind 10 times a second, and always act as though surrounded by invisible enemies, the guy is going to lower his guard eventually... and then Jacen will kill him.

Let me reiterate this once more. Jacen's ability with stealth is capable of defeating basically every form of technology ever used against it, as well as just about everyone short of Skywalker-related Jedi masters.

Oh, one word about shields:They don't do squat if the attack comes from behind them. Also, we have to assume that force-powers would be completely unknown to a lantern... so they couldn't create an ysalamar-type bubble. Furthermore, unless you're going to tell me this guy is omniscient, he is going to be completely vulnerable to psych warfare, which is something Jacen is a master of. (As expected of a sith lord, of course)

You know... I wonder whether Darth Sion vs. Ion would be a draw. (Since absent someone who knew Sion's only weakness, its demigod vs. immortal)

Hmm... does shatterpoint apply to lantern abilities? (Seems to work on everything else)

[Outrider]

I could just start quoting what I've already said, such as pointing you back to Wookiepedia's Jacen Solo article, or back to the part where I explain the fact that a Green Lantern ring is canonically a pure and simple deus ex machina, but you haven't actually been reading what I've been writing for a few posts now, so I think I've put in enough time on this.

I mean, I knew this was going nowhere from the start, but I can feel actual pain from the time that I've wasted. My guess is that somewhere out there an adorable puppy is crying because of this thread.

I'll give you this much - you're probably the only person alive who honestly thinks the DC Universe and the Star Wars universe are anywhere on the same scale. So, congrats?

[ShinMaruku]

At least he's not arguing 40k. XD