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rayner
Nov 2, 2009, 10:44 AM
I understand that the class I play as my main ( Guntecher ) is on the side of being less played, but I never knew it was this low on the chosen-pole. This past weekend I have been doing the GBR and I rarely party with randoms... but I kinda want to get my % up so that the new players I have friended on PSO World would want to play some GBR with me ( Currently at 34% ) Every single party I joined has commented on Crossbows "I forgot Crossbows existed" or "I haven't seen an X-bow in forever" It's also kinda sad when being in a full party and the Guntecher is the Buffer in the party. Everyone is a Fighmaster or Gunmaster... or getting the requirements to be one. I've run into 2 Acrotechers and a few Protransers... that's about it.

So are there any players out there that play a class because it's their style? I like being mobile... and having Techs for the bullrt-resistant mobs. I'm also pretty decent in hallways with Barta / RCSM combo. My Bow will be getting an upgrade with the Supplemental Update so it's not a lost cause. So I basically do 1/2 the damage of a fully upgraded Gunmaster... we're still useful *don't throw us away*

FOnewearl-Lina
Nov 2, 2009, 11:01 AM
3 times in a row...

fay
Nov 2, 2009, 11:17 AM
Come do some runs with me if you want. i'm on just now. I'm using my masterforce at the moment.
My % isn't to high yet but just about all my spalls are at 41+ so i'm not too bad :)

Akaimizu
Nov 2, 2009, 11:22 AM
Has Guntecher ever been the popular class? For me, the only reason why my Guntecher hasn't been around is because I wasn't in PSU much, lately. However, this is usual for me at this precise time of year. Whenever I get involved in the fall season, where I'm working 7 days a week, I tend to be away from the game a bit. I slowly trickle back as winter comes, but this time, I'm also trying to get some good play in other releases. My main, Tynselle, is mainly a Guntecher as the class does indeed have a unique aspect of play.

It's also a playstyle that I enjoy better than just about any other class in the game. However, proof in the pudding is that most people min/max a character and the playstyle they love is in line with easy-to-see big numbers. The contributions of supporters are a bit unappreciated. And yep, I wouldn't be surprised to see folks go "Woah! A crossbow?!" Especially when you use one of those classy S-rank ones that shoot flashy graphics around.

Shou
Nov 2, 2009, 11:39 AM
Thats what the Supp Update is for. With GAS, every class is useable and unique. The balance isn't perfect but it does get better.

desturel
Nov 2, 2009, 11:47 AM
Since I'm leveling my crossbow and handgun bullets, I was playing Guntecher early in the GBR. I did Seed Awakening S3 as a Guntecher. It took 2 hours. I switched to Fortegunner and finished it in about 50 minutes with the same character (human female). So I decided to grind it out as a fortegunner.

I know most of the problem is that I used exclusively xbow as a Guntecher when as a fortegunner I used rising strike and Majarra/Daggas in addition to the xbow, but that was enough reason for me to switch over.

As a comparison, just screwing around as a cast fighmaster I was able to do the run in 20 minutes (and get the S rank). 1/6th the amount of time for just changing character and class. The disparity in power between the classes and races in the game are the reason why you don't see more guntechers around.

BTW, IMO, the 629 MP you get from SA S3 is pretty silly. It's not a run you can do in a reliable amount of time unless you are already proficient in your class. Yeah I know I could just run in a large group then it wouldn't matter what class I played, but that's not the point.

unicorn
Nov 2, 2009, 12:23 PM
I like Guntecher more than Gunmaster and Fortegunner, and its my second favorite type next to Masterforce. Something about Guntecher reminds me of Gunmages or Bluemages (FF), so I guess thats why I like em.

Although Guntecher is weak (possibly the 2nd weakest advanced type in the game), it will get better. You know those Bows we have? Well they get much stronger and much faster. =D And we'll be able to take our xbows to the next level! Annnd don't forget about our Gunmaster ATP boost! ^_^

Its still not as brokenly good as a PSO RAmarl, but it'll be nice.

Akaimizu
Nov 2, 2009, 12:33 PM
I still personally think RAmarls officially ruined things for Guntechers. Well, that's what I was saying from the beginning days of Guntechers. Sonic Team was so incredibly afraid of making something as strong as a RAmarl so they way overcompensated in hopes that no player will find a way to make the Guntecher too strong. They just went a little too far.

And the way they kind of set the game up promotes players to simply pick the strongest just so they have better chances for drops. A little factor that was somewhat fixed by PSP1, by introducing the concept of increasing certain drops depending on the party leader's specific class. (Something that could be made even better by having certain rarity increases of certain weapon types based on what class you have in the party, not just the leader. Which would bring out an almost PSO Partner Badge concept made even more fair.)

rayner
Nov 2, 2009, 01:21 PM
Come do some runs with me if you want. i'm on just now. I'm using my masterforce at the moment.
My % isn't to high yet but just about all my spalls are at 41+ so i'm not too bad :)

I'll be on later tonight to play more GBR, send me a friends request ;-)

The reason I chose Guntecher is because my favorite class in PSO is RAmarl, and Guntechers in the past have gotten some decent "upgrades" I remember a time when our TP was laughable, and we only had lv 20 attack techs... oh and the "photon charge" replenishing both weapons to full instead of 1/2 was a really big deal for my play-style, but the force known as Gunmaster just destroys any hope of DPS for any gunner class. I've seen Shotgun hits for 1200 x 5 bullets = 6000 damage... on rapid-fire! I don't know what units and such but I have a LKK + 10/10 Cubo Tuma and I get 800 x 3 = 2400 and it shoots *slightly faster than a Gunmaster Shotgun.

Once the supplemental Update comes out being Human is a nice benefit and I'm really looking forward to Bows being useful in comparison to Rifles. Can anyone post something for me ;-) Some of the pictures in the "Supplemental update" thread doesn't show. Can someone list the new Attack Percents of the following weapons: something like this...

Crossbow - lv 40 ( 150/155% 18% Elemental )
Crossbow - lv 50

Then do the same for Twin Handgun, Bow & Machinegun... I can't view this info at work for some reason :-(

garjian
Nov 2, 2009, 03:11 PM
i have a guntecher, and shes amasing!

shes only lvl 111/112 and she can hit a good 1700 total with cards and crossbows...
my shotgun bullets suck (only 2 are lvl 21) and she hits around 2500 per shot with that...

megid, healing, buffs...

from a palette that looks like garbage... B rank shotgun (10/10 but still) A rank almost everything else, and only Simba, and 2 wands for S's...

i cant see why anyone complains about the class... the only problem with it is bullet resistand large enemies, and nanoblast can deal with most of those... i suppose its because its a bit slower at run than some classes...

Akaimizu
Nov 2, 2009, 03:18 PM
You do realize Nanoblast is a beast only thing. Non-nanoblast Guntechers have these 2 options.

1. Shotguns to deal with Bullet resistant enemies, and/or traps to help out (if they'll take the burn damage, that is).

2. In some cases, GTs go to Techs to punch through the Bullet Resistant. (I often will use stuff like NosDiga along with a little extra damage and possible DoT from a Shadoog, at the same time.) That way, the drop of tech damage from a full-blown techer is counter-balanced a bit from the simultaneous activity of the Shadoog.

I have pretty much an end-game Guntecher of my build. Human, nonetheless. Months ago, I had a great majority of my PAs at the top levels attainable.

I do agree, the class really rocks if you enjoy the cool multi-role aspect that they have access to. However, drop in solo speed runs is precisely what hurts the popularity. When it comes down to rare hunts, the game doesn't do enough to help anything but the fastest speed run classes. So people are willing to drop *fun* in order to have better odds.

Delete
Nov 2, 2009, 03:20 PM
I personally only like classes that have the Speed Bonus (Acrotecher/Fighter, MasterForce,FighMaster, and Gunmaster). Going back to the slower classes just feels too slow.

Volcompat321
Nov 2, 2009, 03:25 PM
I always liked the Guntecher.
You get buffs, and guns.
Though I do wish they could have gotten either S rank rifles, shotguns or lasers.
Not all 3 S rank, just one of those, and I would have been happier with it.
I loved when they got S rank twin handguns, but those are the least effective of the 4 guns.

NDW
Nov 2, 2009, 03:26 PM
Can anyone post something for me ;-) Some of the pictures in the "Supplemental update" thread doesn't show. Can someone list the new Attack Percents of the following weapons: something like this...

Crossbow - lv 40 ( 150/155% 18% Elemental )
Crossbow - lv 50

Then do the same for Twin Handgun, Bow & Machinegun... I can't view this info at work for some reason :-(

I don't know if the problem is that your work site blocks certain images or that some images in the thread you mentioned don't show. To be easier for me, I uploaded the stats in image form here. If you cannot see them, post and tell me and I'll edit my post and type them out.

Crossbow:
[spoiler-box]
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4906/crossbow.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Twin Handguns:
[spoiler-box]
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8571/twinhandguns.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Longbow:
[spoiler-box]
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2497/longbow.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Machinegun:
[spoiler-box]
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1510/machinegun.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

stinkyfish97
Nov 2, 2009, 05:37 PM
All I can say thank goodness bows will finally get an update and be more on par with rifles. No knockback but it looks like masei-sou will be a lot more interesting to use, i am actully going to lvl it up now because lvl 5 stun is going to be pretty atractive. Oh and I have all the elemental bow shots to 40 and they do alright damage right now, nothing special but after the update it looks like they start with more attack power than they have at lvl 40 now, that is going to be a big jump in ATP, both GT and PT also get ATP updates in supp update, so bows are going to be at least decent to use. I just need to get my hands on a Nasuyoteri 10-10 now. I already have a teric 10-10 which I am going to just keep along side the teri, I actually do like the added acc. I play as a beast PT, I use a lumirus power charge and with that coupled with the acc. I get from the teric my acc. is over 1000 so missing is a thing of the past with the bow, it also helps with laser cannons which are also fairly inaccurate. Still the bow update is going to be better for GT but PT should rejoice as well.

rayner
Nov 2, 2009, 06:25 PM
I don't know if the problem is that your work site blocks certain images or that some images in the thread you mentioned don't show. To be easier for me, I uploaded the stats in image form here. If you cannot see them, post and tell me and I'll edit my post and type them out.

Crossbow:
[spoiler-box]
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4906/crossbow.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Twin Handguns:
[spoiler-box]
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8571/twinhandguns.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Longbow:
[spoiler-box]
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2497/longbow.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Machinegun:
[spoiler-box]
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1510/machinegun.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

This is exactly what I've been looking for... you come through again. I'm bookmarking this post.

Freeze
Nov 2, 2009, 06:30 PM
My second character, Iceberg, is a Guntecher and I wouldn't have him as anything else.

Magus_84
Nov 2, 2009, 07:30 PM
When (if?) the supplemental hits, I'll be back on PSU more (but I'm on PC/PS2 >_>). My main's a GT/AT.

beatrixkiddo
Nov 2, 2009, 07:32 PM
Guntecher < Gunmaster, that's why there are no Guntechers!

NDW
Nov 2, 2009, 08:06 PM
This is exactly what I've been looking for... you come through again. I'm bookmarking this post.

Glad I could help. :)

XbikXBd
Nov 2, 2009, 11:48 PM
lol they went to the japanese Phantasy star universe servers lol

RandomTask
Nov 3, 2009, 02:36 AM
I'm still around but can't find much to play for these days. Waiting and waiting some more for that big update in the sky. I still main a Guntecher and have her pimped out beyond the beyond. I've got every GT weapon in the game 10/10 and rock 50% of each element RCSM. Just about every bullet is 40 and all the techs 30. There just isn't anything left to do. I totally see what you mean though. This is pretty much a 2 class game right now. Gunmaster and Fighmaster. I go to uni 1 to have a look around and among the hundred or so players, I'm not seeing a single Guntecher, not one, it's hilarious. BUT, it's no wonder. I've invested the world into my Guntecher but even having the very top end of everything, she can't lick the boot of a simple Gunmaster with a 0/10 shotgun. IT'S SAD THAT SEGA DECIDED TO THROW ALL BALANCE OUT THE WINDOW. I have to work twice as hard to do well on my GT and then I can switch and play my GM and can get better times playing one handed. People like the easy way out or if they have to run a mission a million times to find something like you do in this game, they prefer to use a class that can run fast with minimal effort. Guntecher = maximum effort = no reward. Gunmaster/Fighmaster = little to no effort = fastest classes in the game. GO FIGURE.

rayner
Nov 3, 2009, 06:21 AM
I'm still around but can't find much to play for these days. Waiting and waiting some more for that big update in the sky. I still main a Guntecher and have her pimped out beyond the beyond. I've got every GT weapon in the game 10/10 and rock 50% of each element RCSM. Just about every bullet is 40 and all the techs 30. There just isn't anything left to do. I totally see what you mean though. This is pretty much a 2 class game right now. Gunmaster and Fighmaster. I go to uni 1 to have a look around and among the hundred or so players, I'm not seeing a single Guntecher, not one, it's hilarious. BUT, it's no wonder. I've invested the world into my Guntecher but even having the very top end of everything, she can't lick the boot of a simple Gunmaster with a 0/10 shotgun. IT'S SAD THAT SEGA DECIDED TO THROW ALL BALANCE OUT THE WINDOW. I have to work twice as hard to do well on my GT and then I can switch and play my GM and can get better times playing one handed. People like the easy way out or if they have to run a mission a million times to find something like you do in this game, they prefer to use a class that can run fast with minimal effort. Guntecher = maximum effort = no reward. Gunmaster/Fighmaster = little to no effort = fastest classes in the game. GO FIGURE.

I was wondering if you were still around, I'm trying to fill your shoes in offering some decent Guntecher weaponry, but some asshat keeps buying up all the Petanite and then re-selling it :-( Our boards are DIRT cheap, and the Walna is plentiful... but the dam Petanite is 80K each. I'm making some charts for grinding, using the flawed fail 2 A ranks High Percent in a row and hope to get the next successful on the S-Rank. It's been working pretty well. The Supplemental Update can[t come fast enough, I'm currently working on some 10/10 Cubo Tuma's, Battlestoppers & Tesbra's... wish me luck :-)

RandomTask
Nov 3, 2009, 06:57 AM
Hey best of luck and we should play sometime if you play on 360. My GT is Justinian 9000, shoot me a friend request. There was some 10/10 tumas as low as 35m a little while ago but not anymore. I think there's a Musrana for 25m which is a good price i think. I've tried many different grinding methods and have managed to get S ranks to 10 however, I find it better to just sell everything and buy the weapon I want and be done with it, let someone else get lucky. It's to easy to throw money away by breaking weapons and then having to get rid of the left overs. I just have a hard time breaking really expensive stuff like say the Adahna Degahna Cannon which is worth IDK something around 120ish or something and as soon as you break it one time, you lose at least 50m.

Battlestopper should still be pretty cheap since G&M came out and destroyed the value and Tesbras are only what 30mish? Some Bajuras for 60. I've got (i think it's still there) a promora for 45m which I'd let go for 40. Well anyways, take it easy.

Akaimizu
Nov 3, 2009, 07:11 AM
Sega always had balance issues with this game. Of course, for me, I equate fun and multi-role into things. There are functions in the game Guntechers can do that you can't as a Gunmaster. Even though the GM runs through stuff faster, it's so not as fun as playing the Guntecher IMO. GT requires more effort, more inventiveness, and a larger use of your various options in tandem; but that's actually part of the fun. How do you use your weapon selection, traps, guns, and techs to dominate and control your enemies.

Still, that pretty much leads into the biggest issue Sega made with PSU, and while I still love the game, I realize that they made it quite backwards in what they should do. The classes requiring the most effort should be rewarded with the best endgame. However, it's purely backwards here. Instead, the classes with the least effort, and the fastest gains (endgame arrival for the impatient), dominate the rest. If they don't see that as bad design decisions, I don't know what to say. It's almost like PSO version 1. Hunter vs. Force. Make the force work hard but still give the easy hunter the props. 'cept we don't get the fix for version 2. The fixes break the game balance even more. (Though maybe Japan already has some update to help)

Of course, this is precisely why when PSP came out, I could tell right away by the new class arrangement that somebody over there already knew the class balance was screwed and changed it for better balance. Sure, there are some of us who stick to the class because we love the arrangement and abilities, and would hardly give it up for the world. But the truth of the matter is, if the class balance is thrown, then classes become abandoned. It's nice to know Guntechers are still around as I've often thought (for a long time in the game) that I'll eventually become the server's only Guntecher. Which would simply add to the incredible uniqueness of Tynselle Nbareh. Looks, face, color, race and gender combo, outfit-choice, favorite guns, and then class, all unique or of the most rare variety. That's kind of what I expected. Because even in the early Japan server days, the GT was a rather low-played class. Tynselle could be easily identified out of a crowd mess, even as far as the graphics will render her.

Still, I knew techer hybrids days of popularity were numbered as more of the economy shifted to making restoratives, scapes, and buff items absolutely trivial, not to mention certain classes so strong they wouldn't bother with them. It kind of killed the need for support classes. So when you put the balance to favor only offense, you pretty much take away the need for half of what makes a hybrid. So the idea of forcing the hybrid to make use of both sides for power is heavily reduced, and because they nerfed the half which the game solely supports, you're all of a sudden put on a totally lower scale bracket. But there's one nice thing about it, though. The buffs still benefit the strong classes, so they do get something out of it, for free.

Considering where I started, and when I started, the guntecher alone took me over 1500 hard working hours to get to end-game. The journey was fun though. And I loved the reward for getting to the point I could dominate Maggas. Back when he was the hardest boss in the game. The revenge was sweet enough that I had to do it again and again.

But to reflect on part of the early journey, try supporting an entire crew, keeping them alive, buffed, and still shoot the snot out of foes back when all of your techs were limited to level 10. (One of my favorite moments doing runs of Crimson Beast) However, if you saw how I was fighting compared to pretty much everybody else in the party, it was almost like I was playing virtua fighter and the rest were playing smash brothers. I was flipping through the palette like mad. Fingers on fire. If a partner was in trouble and well out of range for a resta, I sometimes get the rescue by whipping out the twin handguns and going crazy in hopes to draw aggro. (And draw aggro I did. The early game especially seemed like the monsters had it out for the GT. So I had to be the primo dodger, too since back then they didn't want to give GTs health, defense, or magic defense either. So using techs was always high risk because due to the monster damage numbers, you pretty much die the same time a FT died, yet you had to be that much closer to the danger to use the tech. Strategy and situation reading was paramount since all that mobility goes out the window the moment you pull out that wand) Outside of battle, I would spend time optimizing my palette for maximum speed of access for most common situations. Sega advertised this class primarily as a support class so by gum, I was going to make good on it. :)

RandomTask
Nov 3, 2009, 07:44 AM
Nice post! I agree with pretty much everything and I will say that I continue to play Guntecher because it's fun, much more enjoyable than Gunmaster which I also play. I love the weapon selection and style of play, I just don't like the end result of all the effort. Things should change when we get that supplemental update hopefully...

rayner
Nov 3, 2009, 09:34 AM
Hey best of luck and we should play sometime if you play on 360. My GT is Justinian 9000, shoot me a friend request. There was some 10/10 tumas as low as 35m a little while ago but not anymore. I think there's a Musrana for 25m which is a good price i think. I've tried many different grinding methods and have managed to get S ranks to 10 however, I find it better to just sell everything and buy the weapon I want and be done with it, let someone else get lucky. It's to easy to throw money away by breaking weapons and then having to get rid of the left overs. I just have a hard time breaking really expensive stuff like say the Adahna Degahna Cannon which is worth IDK something around 120ish or something and as soon as you break it one time, you lose at least 50m.

Battlestopper should still be pretty cheap since G&M came out and destroyed the value and Tesbras are only what 30mish? Some Bajuras for 60. I've got (i think it's still there) a promora for 45m which I'd let go for 40. Well anyways, take it easy.

Cool, I'll be sure to send a friend request next time I'm on... could be a day or 2. I wouldn't try grinding on really high priced items, but when you have Cubo Tuma Boards selling for 20K, and if I can get the Petanite for a decent price 50K or lower and the Mot Walna stock-piled it doesn't cost much to make them. I use the break 2 method and statistically to break 3 in a row is 1 in 8 on 50/50. Once I get past 5/10 on an S-Rank I wait for the break 3 then grind on the 4th. 1 in 16. If you take a MASS amount with you to grind you will fail many times... why waste S-Ranks, I use A-Ranks as bait. I find that "Seems high" is ~ 60% I've gotten a 10/10 Cubo Tuma, Hyper Viper & Tesbra using this method. It is time consuming... I even make my own A Grinders.

One thing I notice when partying with randoms... they pick-up NOTHING!!! Junaline is 1500 to the NPC, Merculine can be sold for 3000 and Neptuline for 7000. When I do Innocent Girl A I also pick up the Truffles... 125 = a Bio Panic @ 400K that's ~ 3000 each. I made about a stack doing that run in a weekend, between materials, made weapons and every 33 runs = Pushan. I do this GBR and I've made next-to-nothing :-( Though it's fun to play with people.

I'm working on some PA's at the moment... I even luck-out in Linear Line leveling PA's 2 [b] Crea Doubles this morning. I got just a few more levels in some of my Bows, 40,37,36,37,36,36... and I'm starting on Machine Gun PA's... I'm also going to get all Dam Techs to lv 30 then I'll be done PA-wise. Glad to see some Guntechers still around :-)

Allison_W
Nov 3, 2009, 11:38 AM
Cool, I'll be sure to send a friend request next time I'm on... could be a day or 2. I wouldn't try grinding on really high priced items, but when you have Cubo Tuma Boards selling for 20K, and if I can get the Petanite for a decent price 50K or lower and the Mot Walna stock-piled it doesn't cost much to make them. I use the break 2 method and statistically to break 3 in a row is 1 in 8 on 50/50. Once I get past 5/10 on an S-Rank I wait for the break 3 then grind on the 4th. 1 in 16. If you take a MASS amount with you to grind you will fail many times... why waste S-Ranks, I use A-Ranks as bait. I find that "Seems high" is ~ 60% I've gotten a 10/10 Cubo Tuma, Hyper Viper & Tesbra using this method. It is time consuming... I even make my own A Grinders.

Gambler's fallacy. Starting from the beginning, the chance of losing a 50/50 draw four times in a row is 1 in 16 (1/2^4=1/16), but once you actually know the outcome of a given draw, it's 100% (i.e., if you already have two breaks, it's not 1/2^4=1/16, it's 1*1*1/2*1/2=1/4, just like if the two known outcomes weren't included at all and you just started with the latter two in the first place).


One thing I notice when partying with randoms... they pick-up NOTHING!!! Junaline is 1500 to the NPC, Merculine can be sold for 3000 and Neptuline for 7000. When I do Innocent Girl A I also pick up the Truffles... 125 = a Bio Panic @ 400K that's ~ 3000 each. I made about a stack doing that run in a weekend, between materials, made weapons and every 33 runs = Pushan. I do this GBR and I've made next-to-nothing :-( Though it's fun to play with people.

People are wasteful, especially with the glut of master-class goons with their dreadfully limited selections and no-lifers who already own everything meseta can actually buy and still have stacks after stacks left over. Just the other evening I had a Fighmaster tell me that A-rank mats are trash and she didn't want me picking them up--of course she'd think they're trash if she can't even use A-rank weapons, much less have a good reason to do so. She wasn't the party leader, so I denied and that was the end of it. Then at the end of Dark God we killed the sumbitch before she could so much as tag it (I suggested she try Fortefighter; she seemed offended at the implied suggestion to use an A-rank handgun).


I'm working on some PA's at the moment... I even luck-out in Linear Line leveling PA's 2 [b] Crea Doubles this morning. I got just a few more levels in some of my Bows, 40,37,36,37,36,36... and I'm starting on Machine Gun PA's... I'm also going to get all Dam Techs to lv 30 then I'll be done PA-wise. Glad to see some Guntechers still around :-)

Congrats!

Yusaku_Kudou
Nov 3, 2009, 12:08 PM
If Sega'd just bring over PSP2's type system (but with the ability to change types still), then I think people would be a bit happier lol.

rayner
Nov 3, 2009, 12:16 PM
Gambler's fallacy. Starting from the beginning, the chance of losing a 50/50 draw four times in a row is 1 in 16 (1/2^4=1/16), but once you actually know the outcome of a given draw, it's 100% (i.e., if you already have two breaks, it's not 1/2^4=1/16, it's 1*1*1/2*1/2=1/4, just like if the two known outcomes weren't included at all and you just started with the latter two in the first place)

Say you're working with a fixed 1/2 system... and you start with 100 items, not counting Grind 1 or 2 ( 90% - 95% ) you will fail 1/2 each time.

03/10 = 50
04/10 = 25
05/10 = 12.5
06/10 = 6.25
07/10 = 3.125
08/10 = 1.5625

In this scenario you might end up with 1 or 2 08/10. From what I get from grinding stats as long as you stay with "high" it's ~ 60% so it's now:

03/10 = 60
04/10 = 36
05/10 = 21.6
06/10 = 12.96
07/10 = 7.776
08/10 = 4.666
09/10 = 2.799
10/10 = 1.679

Now it's 1 or 2 10/10... alot of difference 10% makes :-) I made a formula for total cost depending on S Grinders and it runs a little like this. 100*( Grinder S+2 ) + 100*( Grinder S+2 ) + 100*( Grinder S+4 ) - ( 40*Weapon Value ) + 60*( Grinder S+7 ) - ( 24*Weapon Value ) + 36*( Grinder S+8 ) - ( 15*Weapon Value ) + 21*( Grinder S+9 ) - ( 9*Weapon Value ) + 12* ( Grinder S+10 ) - 7*( Weapon Value ) + 4*( Grinder S+10 ) - 3* ( Weapon Value ) + 2* ( Grinder S+10 ) - 2*( Weapon Value )

Or you can use A-Ranks as buffers to try to fail, when you're working with a high pool for statistical analysis it's a little safer but still not 100% accurate, you could fail all 100 Grinds but it's a 1 in 126765060022822940149670320505376 chance. If you do the above with A-Ranks and then throw in an S-Rank after every 3 in a row I've gotten ~ 70% instead of the ~ 60% I have charts and such... it's interesting. Or I could just be lucky...

Allison_W
Nov 3, 2009, 12:24 PM
Say you're working with a fixed 1/2 system... and you start with 100 items, not counting Grind 1 or 2 ( 90% - 95% ) you will fail 1/2 each time.

03/10 = 50
04/10 = 25
05/10 = 12.5
06/10 = 6.25
07/10 = 3.125
08/10 = 1.5625

In this scenario you might end up with 1 or 2 08/10. From what I get from grinding stats as long as you stay with "high" it's ~ 60% so it's now:

03/10 = 60
04/10 = 36
05/10 = 21.6
06/10 = 12.96
07/10 = 7.776
08/10 = 4.666
09/10 = 2.799
10/10 = 1.679

Now it's 1 or 2 10/10... alot of difference 10% makes :-)

Sticking with high grinds, yes. I never advocated for accepting lousy grinds--I would never advise grinding an S-rank past +2 with anything short of +10 grinders unless it's already broken and basically replaceable to boot. (For A-ranks, anything will do on the first grind, but from the second to fourth grinds you want to use something that gives at least a "very high" chance, and from the fifth onward you want to use A+10s unless it is, again, already broken and basically replaceable.)

You cannot, however, "farm" probabilities by, say, breaking three weapons at a 50% or 60% chance of success and then assuming the next grind only has a .5^4 or .4^4 chance of failure. It'll still just be a plain ol' 50% or 60% chance of success, since all the previous grinds are no longer probabilities at all, but completely determined actualities (100%).

rayner
Nov 3, 2009, 01:22 PM
Sticking with high grinds, yes. I never advocated for accepting lousy grinds--I would never advise grinding an S-rank past +2 with anything short of +10 grinders unless it's already broken and basically replaceable to boot. (For A-ranks, anything will do on the first grind, but from the second to fourth grinds you want to use something that gives at least a "very high" chance, and from the fifth onward you want to use A+10s unless it is, again, already broken and basically replaceable.)

You cannot, however, "farm" probabilities by, say, breaking three weapons at a 50% or 60% chance of success and then assuming the next grind only has a .5^4 or .4^4 chance of failure. It'll still just be a plain ol' 50% or 60% chance of success, since all the previous grinds are no longer probabilities at all, but completely determined actualities (100%).

I'm not saying that if I fail 4 A-Ranks in a row with 60% the next will have a 8% chance of failure, if that were true 10/10's would be easy to come by. I'm currently using 50 02/10 S-Rank items in my study and off-hand I'm at 68.89% ~ 70%

03/10 = 35
04/10 = 24.5
05/10 = 17.15
06/10 = 12.00
07/10 = 8.4035 <- I'm here, I have 8 07/10
08/10 = 5.882
09/10 = 4.118
10/10 = 2.883

If I get 2 or 3 10/10 from this study it was well worth the effort :-)

Delete
Nov 3, 2009, 03:12 PM
People are wasteful, especially with the glut of master-class goons with their dreadfully limited selections and no-lifers who already own everything meseta can actually buy and still have stacks after stacks left over. Just the other evening I had a Fighmaster tell me that A-rank mats are trash and she didn't want me picking them up--of course she'd think they're trash if she can't even use A-rank weapons, much less have a good reason to do so. She wasn't the party leader, so I denied and that was the end of it. Then at the end of Dark God we killed the sumbitch before she could so much as tag it (I suggested she try Fortefighter; she seemed offended at the implied suggestion to use an A-rank handgun).


I'm not gonna lie, I myself won't pick up Stuff like Merculine or Neptuline to sell to the NPC because it's so easy to make money as is. As for the A-Rank Weapons, We must face the facts that a huge % of the population are One of the 3 Master-Classes (including myself).

RandomTask
Nov 4, 2009, 01:08 AM
Since I'm leveling my crossbow and handgun bullets, I was playing Guntecher early in the GBR. I did Seed Awakening S3 as a Guntecher. It took 2 hours. I switched to Fortegunner and finished it in about 50 minutes with the same character (human female). So I decided to grind it out as a fortegunner.

I know most of the problem is that I used exclusively xbow as a Guntecher when as a fortegunner I used rising strike and Majarra/Daggas in addition to the xbow, but that was enough reason for me to switch over.

As a comparison, just screwing around as a cast fighmaster I was able to do the run in 20 minutes (and get the S rank). 1/6th the amount of time for just changing character and class. The disparity in power between the classes and races in the game are the reason why you don't see more guntechers around.

BTW, IMO, the 629 MP you get from SA S3 is pretty silly. It's not a run you can do in a reliable amount of time unless you are already proficient in your class. Yeah I know I could just run in a large group then it wouldn't matter what class I played, but that's not the point.

Seed Awaken S3 in 20mins solo? I'd like to see that. Anyways, I gave it a shot solo on a map that was not GT friendly. Well the one I got anyways had tons of buffed baddies and it actually kept me on my toes but I still managed under an hour so saying 2 hours is just poor taste. I'll play some more, maybe I can get an easier map and a better time.