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Kion
Dec 6, 2009, 05:20 AM
Sucks. I`ve wasted my life studying their godforsaken language.

Mysterious-G
Dec 6, 2009, 06:01 AM
私に裸を参照したいですか?^^

Gunslinger-08
Dec 6, 2009, 06:51 AM
I walked in here expecting a rant about Americans/Europeans/white people who are obsessed with everything that is Japan.

On topic:

What's so terrible about it? I have a friend who's studied the language and spent a summer over there. He said he really enjoyed it.

Vanzazikon
Dec 6, 2009, 06:54 AM
I walked in here expecting a rant about Americans/Europeans/white people who are obsessed with everything that is Japan.Then the topic title would've been called "Weeaboos".

Gunslinger-08
Dec 6, 2009, 07:14 AM
Then the topic title would've been called "Weeaboos".

Yeah, you're right. Looks like I need some caffine this morning.

Kion
Dec 6, 2009, 08:15 AM
Once you get down into the details, it get`s really bad. There`s core Japanese which is the basic commoner language, basically the everyday words which are derivatives from Korean (Japanese ARE decedents, there is hard DNA evidence, but they want to believe they were born directly from god or something). Mixed into that is over 2,000 Chinese characters, several of which are wrong.

The word hagane means steal. Traditionally it`s made up of 刃(ha) and 金(kane), meaning "edge" and "metal". Two traditional words directly represented by characters, but later the Chinese character for steal was directly adopted became 鋼. This is why most characters have two or more pronunciations; one a hiragana representation of the chinese pronunciation, and the traditional Japanese forced on top of the Chinese. And lately as English has been taught in schools, the same thing is happening with English. More and more katakana words are appearing, and because they only copy the sound and not the latin routes, that`s another huge head ache.

There should actually be three Japanese dictionaries, one for ripped off korean, one for ripped off chinese, and another for ripped off english. The other thing is that Japanese has no fundamentals. What i mean by that is there`s no way make a new word. In english i can make a sound; "smicklfraggle" and a definition: "the state of being royally fucked up", and i have created a new word. In japanese the only to implement new words is to import.

That would be fine in and of itself; words are borrowed that`s how language is spread. What i hate is the attitudes i get. All Japanese people (i have ever met), tend to think that their language is so impossible as to never be understood by outsider. It`s not that it`s really that difficult, it`s that generally they`re too fucking full of themselves to consider otherwise. For a country that only copies culture and language and culture, yet is so super exclusive that it doesn`t let any of those people in seems like the ultimate in ironic idiocy.

I really get mad at a lot of nationalists over here who are super proud of Japan. You think that Japan is such a great country? Fine, stop ripping off my language, stop ripping off our clothing, cars, tv, washing machines, restaurants, culture, food. What would Japan have with out America? Nothing.

I`m mostly writing this as I`m pissed off about college. I came over here, passed Japanese level 1 and now I`m over qualified to get into any where. Japan has an initiative to let in some enormous amount of exchange students, except all of those are for short term programs. Come over so we can use you as a tool for our students to practice english and then get the fuck out. I`ve looked at a couple of those programs, all of them are for basic Japanese, for people to come to japan, get shown around as a guest and then sent home. Short term programs are as your friend described a lot of fun and easy going. For some one like me who spent the last five years studying my ass off to actually get into japanese society; they couldn`t be more unaccommodating.

[spoiler-box]
Note: this post does generalize Japanese. Not intentionally to be racist. If you find it offensive you probably don`t know what your talking about. [/spoiler-box]

Zarode
Dec 6, 2009, 08:43 AM
Uh oh, spoken truths against the Japanese? Well, I never! I summon from the pits of Hell, the worst weeaboos to grace our mortal plains of the internet! :wacko: (I, too, don't care for the Japanese, nor their Xenophobia. I never studied their language, but I knew it was a lot of copying Chinese and such.)

AngelofEnders
Dec 6, 2009, 10:49 AM
Quality intelligent rant on my forums?

It's more likely than you think.

Nitro Vordex
Dec 6, 2009, 12:54 PM
A (possible) weeaboo sees the light, and rages his way away from it. I'm so proud.

10/10.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 6, 2009, 01:00 PM
Yea, I've had alot of bad run ins with Japanese people. Pompous d-bags if you so will. Tokyo Drift is a kinda hilarious when I think about it because thats how thy pretty much act. They enjoy our culture but when (Americans) visit they're country they get all uppity and snooty with a "Japan is better than you Americans! Filthy gaijin with you high crime rates and women with large boobs! TITS OR GTFO!". I hate to say it but, yea, fuck Japan. The only thing I like about the place is the food. Thats it. Food and Touhou.

Also is it normal to have a large, unquenchable urge to kill around weeaboos? Because whenever I point out the things that Kion has said (all which is absolutely true. I've had friends who were hard-core Japanophiles come back saying "Screw em. I think they need another atom bomb up the ass. Who wants my anime collection? Any takers? Because I'm BURNING ALL OF IT!") they get all foamy mouthed on me.

Oh and in other news, JP Dungeon Fighter Online has lifted the IP ban on the west. Hilarious because the US DFO blows hard!

Nitro Vordex
Dec 6, 2009, 01:22 PM
It's becoming a beat 'em up payshop PSU.

Ketchup345
Dec 6, 2009, 05:11 PM
After half of a college semester on just the criminal justice system of Japan, that could use some work before I would consider it fair. They are just moving to a jury system, but includes judges in the Jury (I think it was 3 judges, and 3 civilians?). The one thing I liked about it was the jury is able to ask questions during the trial. The police system is interesting, that might be something else I liked about it.

Basically, if you get accused of something, it is next to impossible to get acquitted, even if you really didn't do it.

biggabertha
Dec 6, 2009, 07:01 PM
The Chinese society is very similar. Everytime I go to Hong Kong, everyone treats me better if I don't say a word - I've got a terrible British accent on my Cantonese.

Stuck up though..? I don't know you get that kind of thing anywhere you go these days. I once walked into a Welsh pub and would have been killed from all of the daggers in the eyes from the people there had I not known Welsh.

Look on the bright side, at least you can become a fan-subber..! :wacko:

Nitro Vordex
Dec 6, 2009, 07:17 PM
Look on the bright side, at least you can become a fan-subber..! :wacko:
He better know his contractions, or I'll destroy him.

Sinue_v2
Dec 6, 2009, 07:44 PM
(Japanese ARE decedents, there is hard DNA evidence, but they want to believe they were born directly from god or something).

Ironically, it sounds like Japan and the Deep South USA have a lot more in common than the weeaboos would like to admit. Some of those good-ole-boys have a hard enough time just trying to understand evolution... let alone the "Out of Africa" theory. It's always funny to have them try to make the connection between "Blacks & Monkeys" from that... until you explain that, no... technically they'd be white when our ape ancestors still had hair. Humans only became black when we lost the hair and needed the extra melanin in our skin. So the first human ancestors were black men who were descended from white(ish)-skinned hairy apes.

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-02/cinder-naked-gorilla.jpg
What up honky? We're like brothers from another mother.... who.. shared a common ancestor.

According to hard DNA evidence, Shigeru Miyamoto is far more likely to be more closely related to Kobe Bryant than either of them are to Basarwa tribesmen.

lol, genetics.


Mixed into that is over 2,000 Chinese characters, several of which are wrong.

I think a lot could be said here about the history of the English language as well, being considered a Germanic language - yet has deviated and adopted the orthography, phonology, grammar, syntax, slang, and colloquialisms (etc) or so many other languages that I think it does a great disservice to still consider English a Germanic language even if it's roots are. Partially, this is due to English being a very fluid and slang-driven language which grows and evolves unchecked... with no real official authority or academy to advise in proper use and publish dictionaries. This is in contrast to say, French, in which institutions such as the L'Académie française help to reign in some of the slang and regional deviations. Not to mention that the overwhelmingly one-way learning tendency (due to English being the most popular language for international business) leading to Engrish-such mixes and garbled lexicons that rotate back into widespread popular use.

I'm not sure if it was Pinker or Dawkins I heard remark that only about 15~20% of the English vocabulary draws direct lineage to Germanic roots.


I really get mad at a lot of nationalists over here who are super proud of Japan.

Could be worse. You could be here dealing with our nationalists... er, excuse me... "Patriots".
(There is a fine line between the two. One that consider is drawn when one's love of country exceeds the limits of their rationality)


What would Japan have with out America?

A medieval feudal state still ruled by the shogunate and samurai? Naw... that never could have lasted. Isolationism only works until you fall far enough behind technologically for foreign nations to force your nation to open it's borders, whether you like it or not, because there's nothing you can do against it. You'd be amazed how many isolationist "Patriots" in America learned nothing from American history. Specifically, when dealing with JAPAN leading up to the Convention of Kanagawa. Bring up the name Matthew Perry, and more often than not they want to know what the show FRIENDS has to do with anything.

In any case, don't take it too hard. To make you feel better, I baked you a cake frosted with Van Gogh's Starry Night.
[spoiler-box]http://illusion.scene360.com/wp-content/themes/sahara-10/submissions/impressionism1.jpg[/spoiler-box]

DreXxiN
Dec 6, 2009, 08:39 PM
Sinue should change his account name to "/thread".

Mute City
Dec 6, 2009, 09:48 PM
Bu-bu-bu-bu, THIS GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING I'VE LEARNED FROM WATCHING ANIME!

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 6, 2009, 10:04 PM
Think of it Kion, somewhere out there in Japan, a school girl is being chased by a tentacle monster...who is in a giant mecha...powered by magical girls and Hideo Kojima.

Kion
Dec 6, 2009, 10:14 PM
It`s pretty easy to get misconceptions from popular culture. I have to explain to everyone that i`m not packing heat.

And yes, this makes me a former weebo. As someone who has seen the light my advice to anyone who likes Japanese stuff to consider the following

1) If you like anime, learn korean. All of it is now out sourced there. Try reading the credits of any anime if you don`t believe me.
2) If you have some weird obsession with characters and that they look "pretty" or something than your much better off going to China. Economically it makes a lot more sense and they actually have grammar that makes sense.
3) If for some reason you still have some fetish towards Japanese girls which cannot be replaced with other Asians, then i suggest you do not study Japanese. Speaking Japanese is a huge turn off for them because you are not exotic any more.

Japanese have returned to strong isolationism and i think they`re going to isolate themselves out of existence. I think the problem lies with the University system. With Japanese tests, there are no creative answers, only your ability to regurgitate what others have written. What this creates is uncreative meticulous people and only going to Tokyo U can you get jobs in the government and top in the industry. As such Japanese people are all sheep. The people at the top are also sheep and have no direction.

The iphone makes me laugh my ass off. I don`t care for apple but the iphone was innovative, priced and advertised really well. Everyone in Japan has an iphone and just now two years after it came are are Japanese responding with rip-off touch screen phones. The fact that the country best known for cell phones is dominated by an American product makes me lol. Also it really goes to show that Japanese are not innovative and cannot respond to new problems which require thinking outside the box.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 6, 2009, 10:40 PM
Yep. If I want to be a "weeabo" of something it would be of Russia. Dunno why. I just like they're language. Makes me sound like an evil villian. Oh and btw, Japanese women are the only type I can actually tolerate because they are either really really nice or they can be really really bitchy. No wonder my friend Johnny says "Koreans are the best kind of asians out there. We have such cute girls and the men have nice asses! Wait...that last part sounds awfully silly. Honey? Where are you going? I LOVE YOU! Don't walk away...crap..."

Volcompat321
Dec 7, 2009, 01:40 AM
Yep. If I want to be a "weeabo" of something it would be of Russia. Dunno why.

Россия является удивительно!

Mike
Dec 7, 2009, 02:57 AM
After half of a college semester on just the criminal justice system of Japan, that could use some work before I would consider it fair. They are just moving to a jury system, but includes judges in the Jury (I think it was 3 judges, and 3 civilians?). The one thing I liked about it was the jury is able to ask questions during the trial.
It's less of a jury and more of the addition of "citizen judges." It's interesting but it needs some tuning in my opinion. It is a step up from what was there before in lesser crimes.

Kion
Dec 7, 2009, 10:10 AM
I really don`t care for koreans. There`s kind of a popular belief that all koreasn are hot because they get plastic surgery. I tend to look at it from the other side; that they NEED plastic surgery. For asian girls I think Chinese are the hottest. 1.5 billion people and the average being 25, just do the math...

As for the Japanese judicial system, it seems to be horribly unbalanced for civil suits against companies. The companies with have connections with the judge and get off the hook. The victims how ever will get say, led poisoning and then loose the rest of their money on legal fees. So it`s really not a system that helps the little guy.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 7, 2009, 11:26 AM
I really don`t care for koreans. There`s kind of a popular belief that all koreasn are hot because they get plastic surgery. I tend to look at it from the other side; that they NEED plastic surgery. For asian girls I think Chinese are the hottest. 1.5 billion people and the average being 25, just do the math...

As for the Japanese judicial system, it seems to be horribly unbalanced for civil suits against companies. The companies with have connections with the judge and get off the hook. The victims how ever will get say, led poisoning and then loose the rest of their money on legal fees. So it`s really not a system that helps the little guy.

So basically its the kinda system thats for the big guy and the only way the little guy could could get justice is if he breaks into said big guy's house and steals all of his stuff and then hocks it. Oh Japan....we need to get you a Charles Bronson.

astuarlen
Dec 7, 2009, 01:28 PM
This thread almost feels like failed Japanophile-baiting/trolling. Instead, we get a few people coming out of the woodwork to pile on the problematic stereotyping and dissemination of claptrap (although the OP takes the gold in this event). I'm sure Japanese society has plenty of flaws--I can scarcely imagine a nation on earth that doesn't have issues to own up to... like, oh, the U.S. for instance?--but, really, guys?



For a country that only copies culture and language and culture, yet is so super exclusive that it doesn`t let any of those people in seems like the ultimate in ironic idiocy.

I really get mad at a lot of nationalists over here who are super proud of Japan. You think that Japan is such a great country? Fine, stop ripping off my language, stop ripping off our clothing, cars, tv, washing machines, restaurants, culture, food. What would Japan have with out America? Nothing.



Note: this post does generalize Japanese. Not intentionally to be racist. If you find it offensive you probably don`t know what your talking about.


Yea, I've had alot of bad run ins with Japanese people. Pompous d-bags if you so will.



3) If for some reason you still have some fetish towards Japanese girls which cannot be replaced with other Asians, then i suggest you do not study Japanese. Speaking Japanese is a huge turn off for them because you are not exotic any more.

Japanese have returned to strong isolationism and i think they`re going to isolate themselves out of existence. I think the problem lies with the University system. With Japanese tests, there are no creative answers, only your ability to regurgitate what others have written. What this creates is uncreative meticulous people and only going to Tokyo U can you get jobs in the government and top in the industry. As such Japanese people are all sheep. The people at the top are also sheep and have no direction.

The iphone makes me laugh my ass off. I don`t care for apple but the iphone was innovative, priced and advertised really well. Everyone in Japan has an iphone and just now two years after it came are are Japanese responding with rip-off touch screen phones. The fact that the country best known for cell phones is dominated by an American product makes me lol. Also it really goes to show that Japanese are not innovative and cannot respond to new problems which require thinking outside the box.


Oh and btw, Japanese women are the only type I can actually tolerate because they are either really really nice or they can be really really bitchy.


I really don`t care for koreans. There`s kind of a popular belief that all koreasn are hot because they get plastic surgery. I tend to look at it from the other side; that they NEED plastic surgery. For asian girls I think Chinese are the hottest. 1.5 billion people and the average being 25, just do the math...



Holy balls, can I report essentially this entire thread as a string of jingoistic, racist, and misogynistic utterances loosely tied together?

On a comparatively minor note, I find the denigration of language (based on rather incomplete understanding of linguistic principles) as a proxy for culture a tired trope. Next time, let's try venting our embarrassing views over something fun, like ice cream!


Bolds are mine.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 7, 2009, 01:34 PM
I'll change my tune when I see that the Japanese get over they're xenophobia and dislike of Americans. I dunno if it was because of the bomb we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki but that was what? 60 some years ago? Live in the now is what I say. Until then, I wash my hands of this and goin back to studying Spanish. Such a sexy language!

Outrider
Dec 7, 2009, 01:52 PM
So basically, you guys fetishized an entire culture and then were upset that instead of the submissive stereotypes you were looking for you instead found a nation of people who have pride in the country they live in?

Shocking.

Also, I'm sure that these anecdotes you're sharing of poor interactions with Japanese people have nothing to do with the how positively charming you fellows are.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 7, 2009, 01:58 PM
So basically, you guys fetishized an entire culture and then were upset that instead of the submissive stereotypes you were looking for you instead found a nation of people who have pride in the country they live in?

Shocking.

Also, I'm sure that these anecdotes you're sharing of poor interactions with Japanese people have nothing to do with the how positively charming you fellows are.

I'm about as charming as a dirty sock. But I don't think any of us has said we idolized Japan. Then again this is just me skimming these past posts about Japan. Rum parties have a tendency to make your brain mushier than a normal hangover.

astuarlen
Dec 7, 2009, 02:01 PM
So basically, you guys fetishized an entire culture and then were upset that instead of the submissive stereotypes you were looking for you instead found a nation of people who have pride in the country they live in?

Shocking.

Also, I'm sure that these anecdotes you're sharing of poor interactions with Japanese people have nothing to do with the how positively charming you fellows are.

B-b-but, Outrider, aren't they supposed to fall at the feet of every Very Special Westerner? We brought American Dollars!

Kent
Dec 7, 2009, 05:05 PM
Next time, let's try venting our embarrassing views over something fun, like ice cream!
Coconut and caramel in mint ice cream is far more fascinating than it sounds.

People should go in expecting this when they try it. Lets see if they get disappointed.

Sinue_v2
Dec 7, 2009, 05:32 PM
I'm sure Japanese society has plenty of flaws--I can scarcely imagine a nation on earth that doesn't have issues to own up to... like, oh, the U.S. for instance?--but, really, guys? ~ astuarlen

Hey, I tried to spread the stereotypes and rage around a little bit. Truthfully though, even with all it's flaws, there's times I'd rather be in Japan than the US. Maybe it's just because I'm not there, but the air of densely concentrated and mind-numbingly caustic pure stupid that gets spewed here - especially in the last decade and a half when certain elements of the conservative party went completely batshit insane and ran off with the party name to go drag it through the crazy sewers.

It's like Regan left office and the right wing became a parody of Lord of the Flies. Sucks to your Health Care Piggy! So now the anti-intellectual toxic stoopid dump is getting filled from the Left and the Right... and the Ron Paul crazies blocking the exit of Independent. It's embarrassing...

But wait... what's this 2008 NSF report say world wide comparisons of knowledge in science and technology (http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c7/c7s2.htm)...?


Adults in different countries and regions have been asked identical or substantially similar questions to test their factual knowledge of science.[14] Knowledge scores for individual items vary from country to country, and no country consistently outperforms the others (figure 7-8figure.). For the widely asked questions reported in figure 7-8, knowledge scores are relatively low in Russia, China, and Malaysia. Compared with the United States and the highly developed countries in Europe, Japanese scores are also relatively low.

Well.... FUCK.

Vanzazikon
Dec 7, 2009, 06:10 PM
He better know his contractions, or I'll destroy him.


Note: this post does generalize Japanese. Not intentionally to be racist. If you find it offensive you probably don`t know what your talking about.Destroy him.

MetaZedlen
Dec 7, 2009, 06:55 PM
I really don`t care for koreans. There`s kind of a popular belief that all koreasn are hot because they get plastic surgery. I tend to look at it from the other side; that they NEED plastic surgery. For asian girls I think Chinese are the hottest. 1.5 billion people and the average being 25, just do the math...

As for the Japanese judicial system, it seems to be horribly unbalanced for civil suits against companies. The companies with have connections with the judge and get off the hook. The victims how ever will get say, led poisoning and then loose the rest of their money on legal fees. So it`s really not a system that helps the little guy.

Does anyone else here see that he uses ` instead of the proper apostrophe?

Ruru
Dec 7, 2009, 07:03 PM
This is a sad thread.

I don't even know where to start. hmm...

Ok first off i AM japanese. I don't hate americans. No one in my family hates america(ns), no one that i know from japan "hates" america or its people.

All i'm hearing from these people that are mad at japan are generalizations and bad guessing at best. I've lived in america most of my life as a japanese female, and i've seen more hate in this country than i've ever seen from japan. Anywhere you go you're bound to see people who don't like outsiders or other cultures, but grouping everyone together from one country is just ignorant.

Saying the japanese court system is flawed or sucks, is one thing, but how often does the american court system or any other nations court system fail to do justice? In america someone can sue an entire coporation because they spilled hot coffee on their own fat ass? How is that justice? Someone in america can eat at a fast food restaurant every day of the week and get fat, then go and sue the company because the company made them fat? You tell me that's any better than what japan has in a court system.

You say the japanese aren't innovative, and you base this off something like language and phones? Every "new" nation and it's language come from an older nation and their language. Do some homework before you say something as ignorant as that, and go and look up the definition of innovation before you misconstrue the word and use it for your own flamebait. Innovation and invention are a completely different thing. When it comes to innovation, japan has a very big history of taking things and making them better.

You can't say half the things you said in this thread and not expect people to see you as a racist. Lumping all of japan together as this big gaijin hate machine who steals other people's culture/language and ideas is pretty much the definition of a racist. Calling the entire country of japan and all of it's citizens "Xenophobic" is racist. Before you go and point the finger maybe you should look at yourself. I as a Japanese person am VERY offended by the way you talk about my people in your stupid ignorant close minded view. I hope you get educated one day and see the error of your accusations.

Sinue_v2
Dec 7, 2009, 07:24 PM
Anywhere you go you're bound to see people who don't like outsiders or other cultures, but grouping everyone together from one country is just ignorant.

That's because we're human, and it's what humans do. It's a side effect of how our brains work. I'd love to see an example of a society which holds no racial/ethnic stereotypes nor engages in tribal warfare/raiding/etc. This doesn't mean it isn't ignorant, it just is apparently.


You say the japanese aren't innovative, and you base this off something like language and phones?

There may be a hidden kernel of truth here though. From my understanding, Japanese culture more highly promotes conformity and service over individuality and independance. In the US, you have more of a "cowboy" culture of going against the grain and doing things your own way. This can lead to a gap in innovation.


Lumping all of japan together as this big gaijin hate machine who steals other people's culture/language and ideas is pretty much the definition of a racist.

It's a rant. Rants tend to be irrational, exaggerated, and emotionally charged. I don't think this is the proper venue to be assigning labels such as "racist" to anybody, and with a grain of salt when applied to a statement made out of frustration.

astuarlen
Dec 7, 2009, 07:50 PM
It's a rant. Rants tend to be irrational, exaggerated, and emotionally charged. I don't think this is the proper venue to be assigning labels such as "racist" to anybody, and with a grain of salt when applied to a statement made out of frustration.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. You don't get a pass on bigotry because your ego is bruised.
I'm not sure how we can begin to fix the ludicrous dehumanizing attitudes on display in this thread if we write them off as "human nature" or mere venting.

Ketchup345
Dec 7, 2009, 08:05 PM
Saying the japanese court system is flawed or sucks, is one thing, but how often does the american court system or any other nations court system fail to do justice? In america someone can sue an entire coporation because they spilled hot coffee on their own fat ass? How is that justice? Someone in america can eat at a fast food restaurant every day of the week and get fat, then go and sue the company because the company made them fat? You tell me that's any better than what japan has in a court system.My post addressed criminal cases. You only mentioned civil cases. There s a major difference between the two. One may affect a person's freedom, the other affects a person's (or business's) wallet.

America does do civil cases in a way that probably doesn't make sense (if I remember that part of Japanese courts correctly, civil was usually handled before it got to court in the first place). In comparison, Japan does not handle criminal cases in a fair way.



As a moderator: This thread is being watched, if it gets any worse, it will be locked, and may result in warnings.

Ruru
Dec 7, 2009, 08:21 PM
My entire post was directed at kion. Not at yourself. which was why i was talking about civil cases.

Regardless of whether it's a criminal or civil case though. All court systems are flawed. The japanese court system shouldn't be singled out as being "more wrong" than other nations.

Also to sinue. Racism is racism. saying something is less racist because it's on the rant board doesn't make any sense. You can't be less racist or more racist.

Sinue_v2
Dec 7, 2009, 08:32 PM
Sorry, but that's bullshit. You don't get a pass on bigotry because your ego is bruised.

You're right, and I'm not saying you do. Just because something is understandable, even a natural reaction, doesn't make it right. I'm just not entirely convinced that's what's going on here, or at least, I would caution calling anyone a racist or bigot too quickly based on a rants post. I'm not very familiar with Kion or the content of his posts, but from what few posts of his that I do recall - I never picked up on any latent bigotry or racism.

I'm just saying to remember the context. The stage is every bit as important as the actors.


I'm not sure how we can begin to fix the ludicrous dehumanizing attitudes on display in this thread if we write them off as "human nature" or mere venting.

Man will become better when you show him what he is like. ~ Anton Chekhov

It's a fallacy to confuse acknowledgment with justification. Is, is not the same as "Ought". I'm personally not sure how we can begin to fix the ludicrous dehumanizing attitudes in general if we ignore the potential of "human nature" to help explain the mechanisms of why we behave the way we behave... because if we don't know how something works, you're not going to be able to fix it or adapt in a meaningful way to mitigate and minimalism it's effects.

I could well be wrong, and he could be a bigot or made this post with conscious and directed malice. I don't know him well enough to make that determination. Do you? In either case, my point is that misunderstandings in context and point can lead to false conclusions and only compound the issue with perhaps false assertions and assumptions. And malice and vitrol assigned inappropriately based on a false assertion is fundamentally the same as deriding an individual based on a stereotype - whether cultural, ethnic, ideological, or political.


Racism is racism. saying something is less racist because it's on the rant board doesn't make any sense.

Oh, come on. There's a thousand different flavors... different manifestations of love and respect... of charity and dignity... but "Racism is Racism". Just that black and white huh?

I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to that analysis. No offense, but that's the way fundamentalists think.

Ruru
Dec 7, 2009, 09:09 PM
We may have different views on the subject but you can't sugar coat racism. If you don't like an entire culture/nation for the way a few of them act, or if you group an entire country of people together because you've run into a few assholes, you're a racist. There is no reason to degrade an entire country because you ran into a few individuals in that country that didn't rub you the right way.

Making a generalized rant about an ENTIRE country when you haven't even met 10% of the population is racist. Sugar coating racism is ridiculous. It is very black and white in my oppinion. If you're a racist you're a racist. You can't be a little racist. That's like saying "i'm just a little pregnant" You're either pregnant or you're not, there is no inbetween. I'm sorry if the analogy seems a bit stupid, but you can't be a little bit racist. Sure there are extremes. I'm not saying Kion is going around killing people for the color of their skin or the culture they're in, or for their religion, but you cannot lump an entire country of people into one generalization and expect to not be called a racist, especially when you offend someone of that country or group. Not to mention at the end of the post they say they're not being racist. It just opens that aspect up for debate. If you make an entire thread dedicated to bashing an entire country, you should damn well be ready to be labeled as a racist.


Note: this post does generalize Japanese. Not intentionally to be racist. If you find it offensive you probably don't know what your talking about.

This in and of itself is saying. "i'm not intending to be racist, but if you think i am you're stupid"
Saying i don't know what i'm talking about is even more offensive to me because I am a citizen of japan and i definitely know what i'm talking about. And trying to label yourself as someone who is just a little "pissed off" then saying "if you find it offensive you probably dont know what your talking about" is even more degrading to those of us that do in fact know more about our OWN culture than the person who comes into our country and labels us all as these xenophobic lazy uninnovative people that can't think for ourselves.

Rust
Dec 7, 2009, 09:18 PM
I visit this thread daily in order to get my dose of laugh and I must say I've never been disappointed so far.

On a (barely) less stupid note, and despite of the disclaimer, the OP sounds like a person hit by delusion after realizing Japan =/= The Land of Perfect Happiness and Everlasting Harmony.
Going with the idea Japan got less flaws than other developed countries (since famine, civil wars, etc. aren't things we're having to deal with - yet) is setting oneself up for a big letdown.

Generalizing all of them as xenophobic, close-minded, etc. is also pretty goofy. I don't doubt there are people like that in Japan, much as anywhere else for that matter, but I find it hard to believe the OP only met people like that. Admittedly I didn't stay around there for too long and it wasn't for studies, and most of the japanese contacts I've made, I'm only staying in touch with them through online exchange, but the cases of extremely conservative or quite racist people were a very rare occurrence. The only time one of my friend got told to "go back in his country", it was from a black dude (I bet it was amtalx :wacko:).

There is one thing I got confirmed by almost every japanese or westerner who lived there for a while I asked to: Trying to be integrated in the japanese society as a japanese citizen is indeed almost impossible. No matter how well you adapted to their lifestyle, getting along with people and blending among others, you will always stay a gaijin. They will always consider you as a foreigner, not as a real japanese citizen, but if you can get over this (which I don't see as being as huge an issue as I tend to hear it is), it's really not that bad.
Sure there are things in Japan I could do without, much like there are things in France or in USA I could do without as well, but it also got some sides I found very enjoyable.

Trying to disgust people about something that highly disappointed you because the biased idealized vision you had of it completely shattered is a childish thing to do, because the fact you hated it doesn't mean it will be the same for everyone. Like how it's useless to learn japanese - breaking news! it got more practical uses than just reading your import game or speaking the language so you can easily hit on every japanese girl you would see in the street. (YEAH I KNOW IT'S A RANT AND IT ISN'T MEANT TO BE RATIONAL, I'M JUST SAYING LEAVE ME ALONE!!!)

Also, although I don't agree with everything he posted, Sinue made several good and valid points and explained some of them much better than I did, but I wasn't really trying to prove or make points anyways.

*throws a shoe at Vanzazikon*

[spoiler-box]I actually made that crappy post just because I was too lazy to hit the "Subscribe Thread" button.
How ironic.[/spoiler-box]

Kent
Dec 7, 2009, 09:21 PM
I think it should be noted that there really should be a distinction between the race and citizenship of Japanese. I was under the assumption that it was understood that the stereotype of the Japanese (citizens) being xenophobic was not a racial thing, but a cultural thing. The target of the accusation is different (...kind of), just not the accusation itself. There's a syllogistic difference between the two: Race != Nationality, citizenship, place of residence, etc..

Maybe I'm wrong about whether it was intended to be racist, but that's just the way most people made it seem.

Kion
Dec 7, 2009, 09:35 PM
Ok first off i AM japanese. I don't hate americans. No one in my family hates america(ns), no one that i know from japan "hates" america or its people.


I didn`t say anything about Japanese hating America, I just called them arrogant jackasses: there`s a difference.



All i'm hearing from these people that are mad at japan are generalizations and bad guessing at best. I've lived in america most of my life as a japanese female, and i've seen more hate in this country than i've ever seen from japan. Anywhere you go you're bound to see people who don't like outsiders or other cultures, but grouping everyone together from one country is just ignorant.

Thank you. This is what I`m trying to say exactly. That as a foreigner you are getting a lot of resistance. And the reason you don`t see that in Japan is because of your skin color; people receive you as one of them. The funny thing about skin color is it doesn`t matter. Japanese have a strong identity saying they are one people, but this is because they have the same language and customs. These are not things imprinted into your DNA, they are things learned form livin in the country. So my whole rant is that I hate super ego dominated people who think skin color actually matters. I find that Japan has a very large percentile of these people, sufficient enough to draw a generalization. That isn`t to say there aren`t tons and tons of exceptions.



Saying the japanese court system is flawed or sucks, is one thing, but how often does the american court system or any other nations court system fail to do justice? In america someone can sue an entire coporation because they spilled hot coffee on their own fat ass? How is that justice? Someone in america can eat at a fast food restaurant every day of the week and get fat, then go and sue the company because the company made them fat? You tell me that's any better than what japan has in a court system.

I just pointed out a flaw in one part of the system.



You say the japanese aren't innovative, and you base this off something like language and phones? Every "new" nation and it's language come from an older nation and their language. Do some homework before you say something as ignorant as that, and go and look up the definition of innovation before you misconstrue the word and use it for your own flamebait. Innovation and invention are a completely different thing. When it comes to innovation, japan has a very big history of taking things and making them better.

This I`ll stick by. The only things Japan has invented form scratch are the Katana, the mechanical pencil and putting the eraser on the end of a pencil. That isn`t to say Japanese electronics aren`t amazing, I`m just saying that even historically Japan has no inventions from the ground up. Everything is improved from preexisting ideas.
Also for English is also a messed up language. It`s germanic plus french with latin as a base. The nice part its it`s all one seamless writing system. With Japanese, it`s traditional japanese, chinese and English and all three are separate of the other.



You can't say half the things you said in this thread and not expect people to see you as a racist. Lumping all of japan together as this big gaijin hate machine who steals other people's culture/language and ideas is pretty much the definition of a racist. Calling the entire country of japan and all of it's citizens "Xenophobic" is racist. Before you go and point the finger maybe you should look at yourself. I as a Japanese person am VERY offended by the way you talk about my people in your stupid ignorant close minded view. I hope you get educated one day and see the error of your accusations.

I did get educated. Before I was a weebo who thought Japan was this amazing place. Now living here for almost two years I see them as normal people. This post was blowing off steam.

Ruru
Dec 7, 2009, 09:47 PM
You're still mixing up the definitions of innovation and invention. Innovation is taking something that already exists and making it better, while invention is the creation of something that hasn't been made yet.

I can understand being frustrated, but releasing your frustration out on an entire country is very closeminded. You still continue to say that the japanese have a very high percentage of people that hate outsiders. You haven't met enough of the japanese population to say whether or not for sure they all act a certain way. You're taking your entire state of mind and slapping a label on most, if not all, of the general population of japan.

Every nation in this world of ours has groups of people in it that don't like outsiders. Japan isn't any different, but that's not to say that ALL of japan or even the vast majority of it, hates outsiders, which is what you were focusing on earlier.

I never said i don't see hate in Japan i said i see more of it in America. I can't recall the last time i've heard of the Japanese hanging people who are a different color, or dragging someone behind a moving vehicle because they're of a different color or religion than you.

When was the last time you walked into any store in japan and were thrown out of the store because you didn't look japanese? or the last time you drank from a water fountain and got arrested for it because you weren't japanese? Tell me the last time you tried to hit on a girl and were beaten to death by a group of people because you weren't the same color as that japanese girl.

I also like how people bring up things that have no bearing at all on the way japanese feel about outsiders, such as dropping a bomb on us. I'd say a GREAT deal of the Japanese have completely put that out of their minds. The only people that ever even talk about it are old, and even then they don't talk about it with disgust.

Waki Miko Syamemaru!
Dec 7, 2009, 09:54 PM
Eh, Kion, I get called a racist all the damn time. Mostly from insecure white people who don't know what they're talkin about. But I don't hate Japan to the bone, its just some crap just piss me off. And yea, I did used to be a weeaboo until reality checked me upside the head. Japan is Japan and I'm leaving it as that. Although I do admit they're culinary imaginations are truely out there. Mayo as a substitute for salt on a margherita? The hell? Red Bean Ice Cream (OH DEAR GOD THE STUFF IS GOOD! HNNNG!)? Yea its got its good and bad. Just wish the people would lighten up a lil.

Oh and Ruru, chill baby doll. Kion is just havin a rough time. Let him rage out his feelings and then everything will be hunky dory. Now if only I can find a half decent place that sells fish so I can whip up some sushi I'd be all gravy...

PS: Aw, Ru you beat me to the punch! I was about to say "At least they don't hang ya by the tree for bein different!".

Ruru
Dec 7, 2009, 10:02 PM
I really didn't mean to go into rage mode to be honest. I just can't stand any form of racism. Even if he is just trying to vent, it's not the smartest thing to go and call out a whole country for it.

Like i said before. I live in america, i have no problems with america or it's citizens. Also considering i do have dual citizenship, i'd be hating on myself if i was to say i hate americans. Yes there are a great deal of people in america that don't like me or my country even if they don't know me, but i will never label america as a whole as being a certain way. It's just not good form.

KodiaX987
Dec 7, 2009, 11:00 PM
Enough. Play 'em off, Keyboard Cat.

Sinue_v2
Dec 7, 2009, 11:15 PM
I really didn't mean to go into rage mode to be honest. I just can't stand any form of racism.

So, I take it you didn't enjoy Chappelle Show?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uvg-ug9CvE

You see no intrinsic difference between that and the Protocols of Zion? How many generalizations and stereotypes did that video contain? What was their purpose?

Whether used for positive or negative ends, you can't get away from making generalizations and stereotypes. Japan has a population of over 120 million people as of 2008. Try to conceptualize that. Visualize directly, in your mind, 120 million individual people with distinct personalities. Can you do it? How do you reconcile the difference between 120 million individuals in a culture, and the limits of what you can conceptualize. Most people can't even conceptualize quantities over SIX. Of anything. More often than not, when you try to do so - you'll be creating sub-groups. We don't have the capacity to see cultures on the individual level... just like we don't see ourselves as trillions of single-celled individual organisms. Even you are doing this right here, in this very thread by separating the "good" Japanese citizens from the "assholes". To top it off, we are social animals with a pattern seeking monster of a brain that makes predictions in anticipation of social interaction. Whether or not a trend for affinity towards greater similarity has a potential evolutionary purpose or explanation (those who look and act more closely to you are more likely to share your genes - and should be promoted, while those different are not likely to be related and seen as competition) I'll leave out. There's not a lot of hard science behind it, yet. Regardless, Evolution DID shape our brains for an environment we've only recently left behind - and the byproducts of it's function has lead us into territories we have not yet adapted to accommodate.

All you can do is try not to confuse your arbitrary subgroups with individuals during individual interaction - and remember that when dealing with groups, that those groups are comprised of individuals who should be treated as such. But that is a very conditional situation, and we don't even have the language to try to describe groups of people on the directly individual level. When I talk to others, how do I describe PSOworld's community in a manner that DOESN'T reduce every individual who has posted in this thread as a dehumanized homogeneous component of the whole rather than the individuals which make it up? Even highlighting individuals as examples - I'm merely using them as archetypes for subgroups.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for racism. I'm just trying to be a realist about the situation. And please don't confuse what I said above as me suggesting that racism is inherent and has an evolutionary explanation. There is NO GENE which makes us discriminate based on culture or skin color. What I AM suggesting is that it's an emergent byproduct of how our brains work, and it's only one facet of a much broader phenomena that also underlies (in part) the divisions between religious, political, philosophical, and other displays of irrational bigotry. Even the stupid console wars.

And why... couldn't this entire thread be seen as a rant against a stereotype, and not a nation of individuals? Whether or not an individual in Japan fits that stereotype being left up to the discretion of individual analysis? Granted, the language used does not indicate such is the case... but it doesn't necessarily rule it out either. Maybe he just didn't express himself properly or accurately? It's like when people say it's understandable that early civilizations thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth... because it looks that way. Well what would it have looked like if the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth?

Mike
Dec 7, 2009, 11:33 PM
Also considering i do have dual citizenship, i'd be hating on myself if i was to say i hate americans.

Japan doesn't recognize dual/multiple citizenships past the age of 22 (adulthood + 2) (http://www.moj.go.jp/MINJI/minji06.html). The USA does though.

Epically Leet
Dec 7, 2009, 11:42 PM
Wait wait, let me get this straight. You're hating on the Japanese because you praised them so much that they couldn't possibly live up to the crazy standards you set for them? Because they're actually regular people? People like you and me, only with cultural differences?


Good job!

:beer:


Real bastards, are they not? Damn. Must adjust to our expectations. Need to be perfect...

Ruru
Dec 7, 2009, 11:43 PM
I don't like dave chappelle to be honest. Most of his show is made up of racism. whether it's seen as funny or not is up to an individual. I am not a fan of any type of racism or stereotyping. I can't stand people that put an entire group of people in a negative light because of the actions of some.

This is one thing i never understood about certain people that do black comedy. People like Martin lawrence who in every one of his movies, is constantly talking about all white people in a bad way, and it's allowed and even to some it's considered funny. yet if there was ever a movie with white people saying that about black people, that movie would never make it to the theatre. There should never be a time when racism is ok as long as it's a certain group or person doing it and not another.

Anyone who uses stereotyping in a comedy routine just isn't funny to me.

As for the rest of your post. Grouping people is necesarry in a lot of cases, but not in a negative light. If you are hurt by an individual, then be mad at that individual. You don't have to turn it into an all out "i hate everyone in this country because this one guy stepped on my pumas"

"Japan doesn't recognize dual/multiple citizenships pass the age of 22"

Yes in japan i'm considered to be a japanese citizen.

In america i'm considered to be both.

My dad is a japanese american who was in the US army when he met my mom while stationed in japan. I was born and lived in gifu for a few years before we moved to america.

Outrider
Dec 8, 2009, 12:53 AM
Can I just point out for a second that there is a difference between being racist and saying something racist?

Okay, carry on.

Nitro Vordex
Dec 8, 2009, 12:58 AM
http://outtheotherear.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/in-one-ear-out-the-other.jpg

Sinue_v2
Dec 8, 2009, 01:50 AM
I don't like dave chappelle to be honest. Most of his show is made up of racism. whether it's seen as funny or not is up to an individual.

But once it's up to the individual interpretation, it no longer becomes an issue of black and white. Interpretations differ by personal experience, cultural contexts, situational contexts, effect... and the whole issue becomes moralized individually. How do you even begin to apply tautological rigid frameworks on it? I mean, you yourself, perhaps... but how does that apply when analyzing other people's expressions. How does that help in determining parody, from ranting, from malice? What about it's effects? When Lincoln Perry donned the persona of Stepin Fatchit, it's easy to demonize him or the culture of the time for promoting a negative stereotype. It's sobering to look back and see the level of depredation he had to endure just to make it in Hollywood. Yet he also did something amazing. He made people like him. He made them laugh. He created a demand for black actors which ultimately represented one of the most powerful blows in tearing down the racial barriers between white and black citizens. Chappelle was following in his footsteps.

NPR on Lincoln Perry. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5245089)

How would you contrast those two examples of explicit use of racism towards a positive end, against the uproar over Nintendo's portrayal of the Jynx/Rougela Pokemon character? It seems pretty blatantly racist to me on first glance, and to a lot of other people who thought it was a display of Black Face slander. But is it? My interpretation is skewed by my culture in which the scars of racism between blacks and whites runs deep. Couldn't it just be a play on Ganguro fashion with some artistic license combined with poor consideration during localization?

Black and White views are poor, imo, when trying to establish intent.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6i8iHJlHTQ

And what do you make of people who are so overly consumed with being "non-racist" that they over-compensate in accommodating a certain group and end up discriminating against other groups they may even belong to? Maybe out of guilt, or affinity, or whatever the reason. Couldn't a good intention with positive goals effect negative results?


I can't stand people that put an entire group of people in a negative light because of the actions of some.

Despite arguing against you, I do sympathize and morally - I completely agree. This shit - in whatever form - shouldn't exist in our societies. And I do take solace in the discoveries of science in the regards that, no matter what our skin color or gender, we are children of the the same mother far enough back. We are all related. All life on Earth is, but humans particularly in this context. We are all part of the same family. Perhaps there would be less hatred between cultures and ethnicities if that were more widely accepted and better understood? You know, Conspiracy Theorists point to Regan mentioning humanity coming together in peace if we ever faced an alien threat. It's promoted as a false flag event to usher in NWO one world government. I think he was more touching upon a common thread of human behavior. One that would be exemplified in America after 9/11 when, as a whole, the entire nation dropped their previous animosities and grieved together - and lashed out together against a common perceived enemy. Just ask the Middle Eastern and Indian immigrants/citizens who were terrorized by their fellow Americans in it's wake. It's like brawling, competitive brothers who constantly tease and pick on each other - but who will stand together when their mom's drunken boyfriend punches her. They will eventually go back to teasing and bullying each other... but you do get a certain cohesion when their group, their family, is assaulted by a perceived outsider.

And it's not the first time. Consider WWII and the ramifications it had on Civil Liberties for both Blacks and Women which manifested in the years afterward. And contrast that against the treatment of German American and Japanese American citizens during the war. Where were the German "detention camps" the Japanese were forced into? They WERE there... but only about ten thousand German Americans were detained while over 100,000 Japanese Americans were. Could it have something to do with German American citizens being far more familiar and sympathized with given America's lineage from Europe - while the Japanese were, by and large, alien and foreign to most of American culture.. fueled further by physical & cultural similarities to the Chinese and their long history of discrimination?

I admit I don't like expressing moral affinity to science, especially when talking about evolutionary or tribal psychology due to their shaky evidence and penchant for being touted and eviscerated by self-help bullshit.., ers - "gurus" (like David Logan (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership.html) and his "stages"). It invites suspicion of bias, which I'm well aware of, but don't like correcting the assumptions it brings with it.

(And if you followed the link and listened to Logan's speech, note that I find far more merit in Jonathan Haidt's (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html) work... even if it is itself very soft science)

Also, I gotta post this site. It's been one of my favorites for years. Yes, it's racist... but it's more an outside example of Parody/Kion's type of rant - except flipped. It's a blog written by an American who's a citizen of Japan raging against other Americans (English teachers) who come to Japan to "rape it's culture".

I think you might find it interesting, if for no other reason than the author lives in Gifu - and he has some wonderful photos of the town's sights. He's also got a very insightful rant against the US bombing of Gifu during WWII and the subsequent correspondence with one of the veterans who carried out the bombings. The shift in perceptions of the event between his own, a Japanese view, and an American view of the events which occurred is fascinating and tragic.

God Hates Janks: Raping foreign cultures for personal identity. (http://reikanido.com/ghj/index.htm)

(Article under "Historical" titled "Japan's Forgotten Hiroshimas" Original & Rebuttal.)

Ruru
Dec 8, 2009, 05:04 AM
Can i just point out for a second that there is a difference between being racist and saying something racist?

Could you enlighten me on this? I fail to see how one can say something racist without being racist. If someone means to say a racial remark and intends it to be racist, i really can't see how that person isn't a racist.

To sinue. I can see what you're talking about when it comes to some things. I've honestly felt that most people go too far when it comes to something like black face, and to be honest, of all the black people i know, not one of them has been offended by a non black person dressing in black face for TV. The funny part about it is, of the same people, most of them are more offended by the term "african american" than they are of someone in black face.

As for dave chappelle. His comedy styles may be trying to prove something. such as the case with carlos mencia. I can understand that their style of comedy is to force people to rethink the boundaries of race and racism and to stop and laugh about all the stereotypes that there are about each individual. For some people that may be funny, i can see something like that helping if people would stop to think about how stupid it is, but for me, i just don't find it funny.

People who over compensate for racism are just as bad if not worse. Instead of giving people a free ride because of the color of their skin or where they grew up, I wish people would just stop labeling everyone as how they see them. Once people stop seeing the color of everyones skin, society as a whole will be much better. I'm tired of hearing things like asian-american, caucasian, african-american etc. Why can't everyone just be american if that's what they are? I have never in my life heard of someone say "african-brit" or something similar. I don't remember the last time i heard someone in france or britain being labeled like that. They're just french and british.

I've grown up around too much racism and it's something that i just can't stand. My own father is racist against the chinese, and if you ask him why he can't come up with a real answer. Which to me just proves how stupid it is. The only logical reason i can see as to why he doesn't like the chinese is because his parents told him to. Much like a lot of the white people i've run into that hate anyone who isn't white, it seems the only real reason they do it is because it's how they were brought up. Most of the time they haven't even had any real encounters with the people they hate.

I was at a party once where someone said something mean about jews, and when i asked them why, they couldn't give me a straight answer. They'd never even met a jew in their life and were just repeating something they heard from their parents.

I've just read through most of that "janks" site. That's probably something more for people like kion, who would ultimately be disappointed in japan after actually visiting the place, should read. Most of the ranting on that website are more of a generalization of how foreigners act in japan more so than japan itself. Although of course he writes a lot about japan. It's always nice to see a view from someone like him rather than the same old "japan is heaven on earth" views that too many people seem to think. The WWII articles were a nice touch. It's good to see people can be "shown the light" when they realize they've made a mistake or have uncovered false truths.

I don't see that guy as being racist though. True he does say some very stereotypical things in some parts but his rants are on groups of people that are ignorant about the country they admire, more so than one group of people/country/culture etc as this rant was about. I'm most likely contradicting myself by saying that to be honest, but seeing as how his rants aren't aimed at a specific group (as in a country/culture) and are instead aimed at individuals that he labels as "janks" i wouldn't really call himself a racist, considering the fact that most of the time during his essays he refers to himself as a "jank".

Also in one of that "god hates janks" rants. I found it funny how someone sent him a message calling himself a "professional gaijin". If you're going to try to overcome the fact that you're an outsider to a group of people. Why would you continue to call yourself as such. -_-;

Weeaboolits
Dec 8, 2009, 07:04 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked Americans weren't exactly winning any popularity contests, I was under the impression that most foreigners don't like us, not just the Japanese.

Also, it goes without saying that every country has its own set of problems and its own fair share of assholes and assorted people you'd probably rather not be forced to deal with, it doesn't matter where you go, that's just the way people are. You certainly shouldn't be expecting them to be rolling out a red carpet for you just because you're the super-special foreigner, we sure as fuck don't.

You can't really single the Japanese out for xenophobia when people over here can't exactly be called innocent of it themselves, I can't count the number of times I've heard someone whining "If they're gonna come here they could at least learn the language" (that being one of the more rational ones to be fair), which I will admit, isn't really an unreasonable idea, but to be fair, it can be difficult for people to learn another language later in life, especially for people in some countries that have less access to those sorts of resources (or at least don't have them shoved into their hands like we do), and English isn't exactly the easiest language to learn, native speakers can hardly get a handle on proper grammar and spelling half the time. I may be going off on a bit of a tangent with this though, so I suppose I'll cut it off at that.

You can't pounce on it for its derived writing system and language either, you don't seriously mean to imply that other languages aren't similarly derived? Some may be a bit more work to trace back than others, but it's not exactly a rarity for a language to owe its roots to another.

As for having "wasted your time" studying Japanese, congratulations, you were studying a language that's used in a whopping one country, you're telling me that you're surprised that it's lacking in general utility? Although, I'll admit to having tried to learn it myself for a short time before becoming frustrated with the ideograms, though I was looking less for utility than I was enamored with the phonetics and writing system of the language, the former being the same reason that I have an interest in learning German, although I haven't taken to studying that one yet, nor do I expect to get much actual use out of it.

Hopefully I'm still coherent and on point after all that, feel free to pounce on any misaimed points if I happened to misinterpret something, I'm sure I managed somewhere in there.

Kion
Dec 8, 2009, 07:10 AM
I`ll give it a read. As for me I was really looking forward to coming to Japan. I tried to live up to every small detail when it came to living in Japan, but being white it felt like it was impossible for the stupid reason i wasn`t born Japanese. This thread was to say, "fuck it, i don`t care about trying to live up to expectations any more". As for the racism part, i was blowing off steam. I have a habit of going to an extreme and then getting contrasting arguments to bring me back. Thanks to Ruru, i was a lot more relaxed when I walked out the door this morning.

Ruru
Dec 8, 2009, 07:39 AM
I`ll give it a read. As for me I was really looking forward to coming to Japan. I tried to live up to every small detail when it came to living in Japan, but being white it felt like it was impossible for the stupid reason i wasn`t born Japanese. This thread was to say, "fuck it, i don`t care about trying to live up to expectations any more". As for the racism part, i was blowing off steam. I have a habit of going to an extreme and then getting contrasting arguments to bring me back. Thanks to Ruru, i was a lot more relaxed when I walked out the door this morning.

All my raging aside. I'd like to apologize for going a bit overboard.

When it comes to certain aspects of my "heritage" i can get a little short-fused. I'm just tired of people who always put japan on this huge pedestal of awesomesauce only to realize just how human/normal it really is after their ego's and false facts get the shitkicking of their lives, which they then in turn go and rage hate on a forum (no offense) about a place they in fact knew nothing and still know nothing about. I'm sorry to all you japan lovers out there but it is in fact NOT full of giant mechs and cute pink haired girls with magical wands that battle giant robots or alien monsters from a distant planet. Do some ACTUAL research before you waste your life away wanting to visit a place that someone can only concieve in their wildest dreams.

What's worse about the whole thing is. I simply cannot go to the mall without some anime/japan loving "nerd" walking up to me trying to hit on me with the only words he knows in japanese. I'm sorry but trying to get with me using TERRIBLE very badly pronounced and broken japanese, is NOT a turn on.

biggabertha
Dec 8, 2009, 08:05 AM
What's worse about the whole thing is. I simply cannot go to the mall without some anime/japan loving "nerd" walking up to me trying to hit on me with the only words he knows in japanese.

This happens to me at work and the pub all of the time - and I'm not even Japanese..!

Some person: "KOHHH-KNEEE-CHEE-WAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! That's right, innit..?"

Me: *facepalms and dies a little inside* "S-sure mate..."

HAYABUSA-FMW-
Dec 8, 2009, 09:21 AM
This turned out different than I thought it would. My thing would have been completely different than what went on, if I posted earlier, but I can still probably get to it. No fancy quotes from me, though. Maybe a text wall, but breaking them up might make it harder to read among how other people set up theirs already.

Wanted to ask the OP some things, maybe throw some advice their way too. Rant then someone trying to help them out of the rut, instead of using their rant as a vessel (one of these popular internet topics) and running with it. Or getting to the things probably said in anger. Like all that copying our cars stuff. [spoiler-box]American cars? Not in the last 2 decades. Everyone running out to get that Chevy "Equinox" @ 1 MPG average more than the Hondas & Toyoters![/spoiler-box]

I didn't catch it among the rest, point it back out to me if it was posted please. What were your expectations for a job and assimilating past the standard JET and English teaching stuff programs (that you admitted, might have rushed into) ? And you said you were in a high class restaurant now? Other job thread here in rants.

I'd advise you to look into talking up the suits, getting some business cards and network this way. Networking is what you're going to have to do as an outsider and want to move past your language skills jobs and bus boy stuff, really in any culture, no?

Plus to get rid of that homesickness and get some friends at all. Younger, your age people to hang out with and visit their local hotspots.

Example I have is some months ago that EGM editor, James Milkman Mielke moved to Japan to work at Q Ent. Games, after befriending T. Mizuguchi at some trade/gaming shows way back when. He thought of it as a dream job, but for the blog readers and gamers not knowing yet - outlined some of the major hassles and paperwork stuff that goes into moving there. Wife saying, "...now you know why I left!" Or even, getting an iPhone. Whereas yeah, in N.America, they're quick to want to activate you and get your $50 a month min starting ASAP. But a clerk talked down to him, as politely as she could - without any further action, repeating the wrong housing papers/proof stuff wasn't done yet, couldn't get it "Nothing I can do." Check that blog out if it interests you somewhat, game related to what this forum is for - plus they copy the afro wig style, always fun for pics. [spoiler-box]No need to run to talk about other things afro-centric that are not as welcomed in Japan yet. I've got a WTF is a Street Fighter named RUFUS/instead of the prototype art design(Black Karate-Ka who's not a joke finally?) write up to pass on, if you'd like that though.[/spoiler-box]

- Off topic,
[spoiler-box]probably, but hey look at this topic with its zig zaggery and many things to talk about. I might grab some quotes to reply to next.[/spoiler-box]
- Glass ceiling for women being far lower in Japan also kinda sucks big time. Not Middle East levels but still there in plenty of magnitude.

Whew, glad cooler heads prevailed (to post before lockdown) and maybe it can take a turn into solving a problem, however best (or @ all) Internet help lines here can, instead of the pointing and hanging out ice cream social of a thread.
Choc chip mint please, no extras no songs if you want a tip.

Outrider
Dec 8, 2009, 11:07 AM
Could you enlighten me on this? I fail to see how one can say something racist without being racist. If someone means to say a racial remark and intends it to be racist, i really can't see how that person isn't a racist.

If I'm usually a rather intelligent person but then I say something stupid, am I suddenly always a stupid person or was it just a one-off situation?

If I'm usually an incredibly nice person, but one day I'm a huge dick, does that make me a jerk or a nice guy?

I'm not saying that racist comments are correct or right in any way, but making generalizations about a person isn't really any better than making generalizations about a culture or race.

Volcompat321
Dec 8, 2009, 11:15 AM
I'm not going to say much, but honestly, this thread sounded like yet another racist white person.
This is what makes us look bad.

Ruru, you killed it. Sinue you destroyed it.
Both of you had points I liked.

Anyway, this is why I don't like white people. :wacko:
(Honestly, I hate about half or more of the white people I know, and I'm white). :o

Zarode
Dec 8, 2009, 11:37 AM
Anyway, this is why I don't like white people. :wacko:
(Honestly, I hate about half or more of the white people I know, and I'm white). :o

That's racist.

Volcompat321
Dec 8, 2009, 12:02 PM
I'm sure it is.
I never said I wasn't racist.
(Though I'm not. Not against what white people are "normally" racist against anyway. Like I said, I hate at least half the whiteys I know).

Epically Leet
Dec 8, 2009, 01:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked Americans weren't exactly winning any popularity contests, I was under the impression that most foreigners don't like us, not just the Japanese.

In general, yes... "Stuck-up, uneducated idiots*". Even I have that view some times, I admit, but having two American friends that are both awesome makes me change it, at least a bit.




*

Stuck-upness (if that's a word): Thinking you're at the top of the world and so much superior to everyone else. (Now, of course this doesn't apply to each indiviual, but it seems like America in a whole is all about extreme patriotism. Yes, I realize every country has patriotism. That's where the word "extreme" comes in -- as a distinguisher.)

Uneducation: "Europe is a good-for-nothing continent." (Someone actually said that over at GameTrailers.com's forums, and I've heard similar things before that.) Et cetera...



Mmkay.

astuarlen
Dec 8, 2009, 02:51 PM
It appears things have been patched up on some level in here, but there are a couple more things I hate to leave unsaid which relate to this thread (even if they may remain unread):

It's interesting that saying a person is racist--or even noting that particular attitudes, speech, or actions have highly problematic, racist implications which need to be confronted--tends to be followed by immediate and harsh criticism of that statement and a how could you dare accuse X of racism? line of discussion, rather than actually addressing the (pick one or more:) racist/othering/exoticizing/privileged attitudes/speech/actions themselves.
Thus, I often find it more productive--and more accurate*--to avoid the dangerously cheesy hot noun form racist in favor of the adjectival form or, even better, to bring up the pervasive, systemic form of racism which is in many ways more subtle and complicated, especially taken to a global level.
Further complicating the matter is the fact that not everyone has the same definition of racism or racist behavior (the most common, colloquial definition seems to be something like different treatment based on ethnicity, while the idea that racism = prejudice + power is a somewhat more favored, if simplified, jumping-off point in a lot of antiracist discourse; to further, but perhaps necessarily, complicate matters, discussion continues over what racism is and means and how the word functions in discourse to obscure or enlighten (http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/monday-debate-what-is-racism/)).

Perhaps we'd be more comfortable stating that painting entire groups of people of a particular origin in such broad (ugly) strokes is "merely" prejudice. As complicated as issues of racism in a single country are, on an international level, where insider/outsider status intersects with economic relations (past and present, micro and macro), historical relations (and especially colonialism and conflict), class, status, etc, it's even hairier and more uncertain where the privilege and power lie. Nevertheless, in this very particular context (posts on a U.S.-hosted, English language site with a primarily Western user base), the eager othering, exoticizing, demeaning, and flattening of entire cultures and societies (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) which have been and continue to be so treated and characterized in Western (esp. American) contexts smacks of systemic, internalized, big-R Racism. The point is not necessarily what we call it but how this shapes the way we address the issue. In many cases, I've seen the limitation of racism as a term to describe a very individual, very ugly set of behavior as a way to bypass or dismiss the larger problem of culturally embedded privilege and prejudice.

Also, I liked Ronin_Cooper's brief-but-illustrative point that Americans haven't exactly been rolling out the welcome wagon for immigrants (or maybe just the "wrong type", barf). The amount of vitriol directed at scary illegals ("illegals" and "illegal aliens" are such dehumanizing terms, if you think about it), primarily from (or assumed to be from) Mexico most recently is appalling. But we'll leave that tangent here.

On the "weeaboo"/"weeaboo-bashing" trope:

So basically, you guys fetishized an entire culture and then were upset that instead of the submissive stereotypes you were looking for you instead found a nation of people who have pride in the country they live in?
This is great. There's a lot of problematic discourse around the "weeaboo" phenomenon, but from what I can discern, the fundamental problem with the compulsion is its inherent--wait for it--othering, exoticizing, and flattening... and often--BONUS ROUND!--appropriation of culture... all wonderful ways to deny the people being "honored" their full humanity. Unfortunately, too often I've seen the "cure" (I'm really digging the scare-quotes today... and the parentheses) or reactions against so-called weeaboos to be tearing down Japanese culture (which is distinct from taking an even-handed look at a society's weak points, though this may be limited by an outsider perspective where applicable) or attacking the character of the individual (rather than calling them out and asking them to examine their impulses and actions).

So, yeah, some of my thoughts, imperfectly formed and articulated, partially for you, partially for my benefit (writing as thinking).

Weeaboolits
Dec 8, 2009, 02:58 PM
In general, yes... "Stuck-up, uneducated idiots*". Even I have that view some times, I admit, but having two American friends that are both awesome makes me change it, at least a bit.




*

Stuck-upness (if that's a word): Thinking you're at the top of the world and so much superior to everyone else. (Now, of course this doesn't apply to each indiviual, but it seems like America in a whole is all about extreme patriotism. Yes, I realize every country has patriotism. That's where the word "extreme" comes in -- as a distinguisher.)

Uneducation: "Europe is a good-for-nothing continent." (Someone actually said that over at GameTrailers.com's forums, and I've heard similar things before that.) Et cetera...



Mmkay.I'd blame that on the sheer size of the country (not that it's the biggest country in the world, but it's still relatively large), more people means more idiots, also the fact that elementary has teachers drilling THIS IS THE BEST COUNTRY EVER BECAUSE WE ARE FREE into the little tykes' skulls certainly doesn't help in that regard.

Calling Europe a good for nothing continent just shows how poorly some kids do in history class. I tend to think of Europe more as "That other continent with English speaking countries that get routinely shafted by the gaming industry, where noses skyward when Americans are mentioned and most of the cool accents reside", though I will be fair, there is an overwhelming number of idiots, whether they form the majority or not, they're the ones that lack the sense not to scream nonsense all day long, so they're the ones that get heard, especially since the internet allows them to do so without fear of retribution. This, of course, applies to both sides, leading to negative impressions all around.

More on topic, nations such as Japan probably get spared this at times to an extent due simply to the language barrier, we can't understand the Japanese guys making fun of us, but it's not too hard to understand the Englishman doing the same.

At any rate, I'll stop at that before I go off on any more of a tangent or make myself look like an idiot (unless I already did that, in which case, I'll just quit while I'm ahead, I tend to lose track of myself when I write posts this long).

Epically Leet
Dec 8, 2009, 04:03 PM
I'd blame that on the sheer size of the country (not that it's the biggest country in the world, but it's still relatively large), more people means more idiots, also the fact that elementary has teachers drilling THIS IS THE BEST COUNTRY EVER BECAUSE WE ARE FREE into the little tykes' skulls certainly doesn't help in that regard.

Yes, I suppose.



Calling Europe a good for nothing continent just shows how poorly some kids do in history class. I tend to think of Europe more as "That other continent with English speaking countries that get routinely shafted by the gaming industry, where noses skyward when Americans are mentioned and most of the cool accents reside", though I will be fair, there is an overwhelming number of idiots, whether they form the majority or not, they're the ones that lack the sense not to scream nonsense all day long, so they're the ones that get heard, especially since the internet allows them to do so without fear of retribution. This, of course, applies to both sides, leading to negative impressions all around.


Ya, my point was, however, that most of you non-native Americans came from Europe, meaning calling Europe good-for-nothing is bashing your own fucking ancestors. They don't seem to realize it, either... "O HAI, I SHALL WALK OVER TO ASIA, STEAL IT FROM THEM, AND IN 500 YEARS CALL MY ORIGIN GOOD-FOR-NOTHING. OH LOLS. TR00 ASIAN NOW AND ALL." What's worse, is hating on immigrants when you're all immigrants -- brought on a bigger scale. Yeah, you guys who live now have absolutely nothing to do with the European colonization of the Americas, but that doesn't change history, and it's downright disrespectful to ignore it. Especially with all the pride for "your perfect country" -- something "you" stole. Not 6,000 years ago, but around 500 -- in recent history, in other words. Way to go.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff38/NCAAFBALLROX2/race.jpg



Man, I shouldn't be allowed in the rant section. I must seem like I totally hate you guys right now, but I assure you that I don't. I just despise ignorance and pride. :( That, and I most likely woke up on the wrong side of bed today.

Outrider
Dec 8, 2009, 04:19 PM
I must seem like I totally hate you guys right now, but I assure you that I don't. I just despise ignorance and pride.

You probably shouldn't have made a post accusing the people in this thread (who you don't know) of being morons and bigots then, huh?

I know what it's like to be young and passionate about your beliefs, but please take a moment to think before you lash out at what was becoming a fairly civil discussion.

Dhylec
Dec 8, 2009, 04:45 PM
This is a touchy subject - with over 60 posts, I think those who wanted to say something already did. Let's ends it here before things gets too derailed & hostile.