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Wintermute0
Jan 4, 2010, 05:52 PM
Pretty self-explanatory. I'm asking because I plan on making one when I start, any tips?

Max B
Jan 4, 2010, 05:54 PM
Pretty self-explanatory. I'm asking because I plan on making one when I start, any tips?

Do casts make good techers?:D

TwistedDragon
Jan 4, 2010, 06:04 PM
Dude basicly pick any other race lol.

Shiro_Ryuu
Jan 4, 2010, 06:34 PM
They're not as bad at it as CASTs are as techers, but they won't do AS good AS the other 3 races, but it can still work. Go ahead.

RubyEclipse
Jan 4, 2010, 06:50 PM
Newmans rock.

It's just a bit more challenging. ;)

Neith
Jan 4, 2010, 06:59 PM
Do casts make good techers?:D

Depends on the player. PSU is so easy, anything can work, though Cast techer probably is the worst option.


Dude basicly pick any other race lol.

It depends really, Newman is decent at fighter, particularly Acrofighter.


They're not as bad at it as CASTs are as techers, but they won't do AS good AS the other 3 races, but it can still work. Go ahead.

Right.

The whole 'Newmans suck at everything that isn't teching' is just a label put on them since PSU v1. A lot of people don't seem to understand that just because statistically they're the worst Hunters, doesn't mean they're bad. They won't outperform other races (and you'd have to be stupid to think they'll out-DPS a Cast/Beast), but even as a Newman fighter, the game is damn easy.

Tool them up with decent weapons (ideally 30%+) and they're fine. Anyone who's played with me can probably attest to them being usable.


Newmans rock.

It's just a bit more challenging. ;)

Yeah, 'a bit' being the word(s). I run a Lv163 Female Newman Fighmaster/Fortefighter/Acrofighter/Wartecher, and she can solo anything easily enough- and to anyone who isn't sure on Newmans meleeing, I can always run a game with people if they want to see the damage output.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 4, 2010, 07:05 PM
The game is so easy right now that it all boils down to your definition of good.

Max B
Jan 4, 2010, 07:07 PM
The game is so easy right now that it all boils down to your definition of good.

THIS.

Professor Xavier
Jan 4, 2010, 07:11 PM
You might get away with Wartecher for a while. You will want to consider Beast or Cast for a Hunter. Im not sure if anyone has done a level 20 hunter. yet. If you even can.

Max B
Jan 4, 2010, 07:14 PM
Im not sure if anyone has done a level 20 hunter. yet. If you even can.

Huh? I have my hunter to 20... and yes you can get hunter to 20

pinkace
Jan 4, 2010, 07:52 PM
Those that keep saying the game is "so easy now" need to shut up and read what the OP is asking. He is MAKING a new character. The game will not be easy for him for a long while. Stop turning every thread into a bitch platform please.

A Newman hunter will be challenging at first, but the extra evasion and accuracy will come in handy at later levels.

Neith
Jan 4, 2010, 08:12 PM
Those that keep saying the game is "so easy now" need to shut up and read what the OP is asking. He is MAKING a new character. The game will not be easy for him for a long while. Stop turning every thread into a bitch platform please.

A Newman hunter will be challenging at first, but the extra evasion and accuracy will come in handy at later levels.

Sure, Newman HU will be slightly harder than say a Beast/Cast, but it's still not difficult at low level. Honestly, I found the hardest part of leveling a Newman HU was from Lv50-75, you don't have that much ATP at that point, and Beast/Cast are probably equipping items 1 or 2 stars higher than you can. Provided you know how to play a HU though (attack from the back for 100% ATA when possible), it's very, very easy.

The game is easy at Level 1 as well, it doesn't change as you level up. Monsters get harder, but your character develops so much faster that they never pose much challenge. I did read the OP's post, and said what I believe is true. I have a Lv160 Newman Female melee character- believe it or not, she was Lv1 once, and yes, she started as a Hunter. She has never once been a Gunner or full-on Techer (Acrotecher briefly, but I didn't like it), so I'd like to think I can advise people on making a Newman hunter. No-one is 'bitching' here, we're stating our opinions of the game, coming from people who've played a long time. The game really isn't hard, and any class/race combination (with the POSSIBLE exception of Cast Forces) will do fine. Even then, I haven't tried Cast Force, so I don't know how bad it actually is.

Also, I find the EVP doesn't help at all unless you're playing Acrofighter (and even then, its only use is for Just Counter). Most of the other Fighter classes have horrible EVP modifiers, and even being a Newman can't make it up much. Hell, as a Fighmaster it takes long enough to even get EVP into triple-digits, regardless of race.

Omega-z
Jan 4, 2010, 09:20 PM
lol Cast techer`s bad? lol it`s just like Newman fighter`s it`s harder at first but not bad, just not the best in DPS or TA`ing. Who cares as long as you enjoy your character and like doing things with a twist of more of a challenge, as long it`s fun for the user. I `ve seen newman power in a battle and there cool and sexy at the same time and it was a female newman too. I would run with a newman fighter, cast techer , human WT, or beast gunner any day, not because there the best in everything but because they choose to be different form the crowds with there own goals, hopes and dreams. Which I repect.:)

BIG OLAF
Jan 4, 2010, 09:57 PM
Wintermute, normally I would say to stick to what your chosen race is good at:

CASTs: Gunning
Beasts: Fighting
Newmans: Teching
Humans: *blank space*

...but you're just starting out. Don't worry, though. You'll learn better after a while. Sure, any race can do any class semi-effectively, but you'll never get the 100% potential out of a class unless you're the preferred race for the class.

I don't mean to sound like an ass, it's just my view on this, as an "Efficiency Freak" (as I've been titled by my friends).

JFKdj
Jan 4, 2010, 10:27 PM
If you make a female Newman, they can do anything (and look sexy as hell), male Newmans are extinct as far as I know.

pinkace
Jan 4, 2010, 10:40 PM
Sure, Newman HU will be slightly harder than say a Beast/Cast, but it's still not difficult at low level. Honestly, I found the hardest part of leveling a Newman HU was from Lv50-75, you don't have that much ATP at that point, and Beast/Cast are probably equipping items 1 or 2 stars higher than you can. Provided you know how to play a HU though (attack from the back for 100% ATA when possible), it's very, very easy.

The game is easy at Level 1 as well, it doesn't change as you level up. Monsters get harder, but your character develops so much faster that they never pose much challenge. I did read the OP's post, and said what I believe is true. I have a Lv160 Newman Female melee character- believe it or not, she was Lv1 once, and yes, she started as a Hunter. She has never once been a Gunner or full-on Techer (Acrotecher briefly, but I didn't like it), so I'd like to think I can advise people on making a Newman hunter. No-one is 'bitching' here, we're stating our opinions of the game, coming from people who've played a long time. The game really isn't hard, and any class/race combination (with the POSSIBLE exception of Cast Forces) will do fine. Even then, I haven't tried Cast Force, so I don't know how bad it actually is.

Also, I find the EVP doesn't help at all unless you're playing Acrofighter (and even then, its only use is for Just Counter). Most of the other Fighter classes have horrible EVP modifiers, and even being a Newman can't make it up much. Hell, as a Fighmaster it takes long enough to even get EVP into triple-digits, regardless of race.

So the game has always been easy huh? I have been on this boards for years and 'easy' wasn't a frequent word at all. It was 'when will we get moatoob and neudaiz?" then it was "when will they update the game?". That changed to "Holy cow AoTI is here yay, but too late"... followed by " freakin japanese get all this content, why don't we?"

get the picture? you say it is easy NOW because it is en vogue to bitch about that. You certainly have a right to state that you felt the game was easy back then, but you didn't share it then.

Bottom line is it will be plenty fun and challenging at first, just like it was for everyone else at level 1, when you had no money to load up on scapes AND refill your PP AND buy healing items....

BIG OLAF
Jan 4, 2010, 10:44 PM
If you make a female Newman, they can do anything (and look sexy as hell), male Newmans are extinct as far as I know.

I beg to differ. One of my very close friends plays PSU alongside me just about daily, and he's one damned good Acrotecher, probably one of the best in the game (at least Xbox360 side), as proclaimed by myself, and a myriad of other people that he's done missions with. If he's in a mission with me, I'll expect to use no healing items of any sort, ever. That being said, he plays a male Newman.

As for female Newmans looking "sexy as hell", I'm just going to keep my opinion to myself on that one, lest it start an unneeded race war (which this thread is teetering on, anyway).

unicorn
Jan 5, 2010, 12:24 AM
Its the weakest at any melee types so basically the worst.

But you can really be whatever you want since this game is easy. Phantasy Star Portable 2 does a better job at balancing types according to races. PSU kinda restricts you to being CAST/Beast for everything and Newman for Masterforce, since its sooo easy this way.

Ideally, Newmans SHOULD be highly accurate, evasive, and mind defensive hunters. CASTs should be accurate, physically defensive, and be able to use SUV. Sadly, hunters have terrible mods for the stats Newmans excel at, so they never really take advantage of their stats. Same goes for Force jobs, they have bad mods for anything Beast/CAST should be good at.

Sooo basically, none of the races bring their specific advantages to good use for all jobs.

PSP2 is different because I don't think it uses percentages for its mods. PSU tends to make the gaps incredibly huge, but PSP2 keeps your characters in similar ballparks yet still have different gameplays that work for its race.

But no one is stopping you from being a Newman anything. The game is easy enough to do it, just remember that you won't be the strongest. You'll be different though, and you can enjoy the game as much as the next player. =)

Keilyn
Jan 5, 2010, 12:35 AM
Pretty self-explanatory. I'm asking because I plan on making one when I start, any tips?

Actually they do, but players have problems in recognize them when to use them. Newmans have the lowest ATP, but the highest evasion in the game...

Newmans being my favorite :P I can say that in C - S a Cast or Beast is superior to one as a Hunter, but when you reach S2 and deal with the evasion, you can actually get more hits in and have a higher survivability at times.

YOu will need to work harder and get at least a 36%+ Pallete on your weapons....and you wont have an SUV...

I have all my types at 20 as a newman female...You have to work harder at it but there are some cool things.

^_^

RAGNAGELPPOD
Jan 5, 2010, 01:25 AM
I thought evasion was what triggers the block animation, so wouldnt a fighter get in less hits if their evasion was higher since their attacks would be interrupted more often?

Yusaku_Kudou
Jan 5, 2010, 01:50 AM
My female newman (my first real character and still 90% of time played my main) has ZERO techs. I have dozens of LV40+ skill and bullet PAs. I can, for a fact, out-DPS most CAST and beast. I said most, not the people who have their PAs capped with absurd 10/10 best weapon pallets. Most people are surprised to see me hit so high. I say go for a newman fighter. Do you really want to have basically the same exact characters as everybody else? Almost all PSU players follow a specific race/type profile verbatim; boring!

RAGNAGELPPOD
Jan 5, 2010, 02:11 AM
My female newman (my first real character and still 90% of time played my main) has ZERO techs. I have dozens of LV40+ skill and bullet PAs. I can, for a fact, out-DPS most CAST and beast. I said most, not the people who have their PAs capped with absurd 10/10 best weapon pallets. Most people are surprised to see me hit so high. I say go for a newman fighter. Do you really want to have basically the same exact characters as everybody else? Almost all PSU players follow a specific race/type profile verbatim; boring!

Are you putting in more dps than CASTS and Beasts that are equipped/Pa laeveled similarly to yourself?

Also , you can't really blame a person for following a strict Race/type profile especially since the first thing that a lot of players may do is recreate their PSO characters.

unicorn
Jan 5, 2010, 02:39 AM
Are you putting in more dps than CASTS and Beasts that are equipped/Pa laeveled similarly to yourself?

Also , you can't really blame a person for following a strict Race/type profile especially since the first thing that a lot of players may do is recreate their PSO characters.

You didnt read her post.... lol


I can, for a fact, out-DPS most CAST and beast. I said most, not the people who have their PAs capped with absurd 10/10 best weapon pallets.

Keilyn
Jan 5, 2010, 02:52 AM
Hmm....

Let me put something logical...

0/10 Neutral Gekitsnata + LKK + Female Newman FM level 20 ATP = 2690
0/10 Neutral Gekitsnata + LKK + Female Cast FM level 20 ATP = 3024

Basic Division on Power Comparison

3024/2690 = 1.1241

Right off the bat a Female Cast does 12.4% more damage than a Female Newman w/ a gekitsnata...So to match the damage a cast does, a female newman would need a 13% element Gekitsnata (unless element damage is not a 1 : 1 Scale based percentage)

Edit: This is for Level 170...^_^ I did not include the Character Level before and I don't want to retain assumptions.

RAGNAGELPPOD
Jan 5, 2010, 03:08 AM
You didnt read her post.... lol

Ahh, I read her post; to me it looked like she said that she isnt doing better than Cast/Beasts with near perfect equipment, which is understandable, but I was curious to know if she were outperforming casts/beasts equipped similarly to herself since things like Class bonuses for hybrid jobs could come into play.

It sort of like, well Ima just throw in some random numbers to make a point, A beast with a 25% axe can do as much damage as a newman with a 50% axe because of beasts higher ATP. But maybe if both had a 25% axe, the newman could do more damage because of a hidden bonbus, sort of like how Human protransers traps do more damage than casts of the Same Character/Job Level ( or so I've read).

Neith
Jan 5, 2010, 06:50 AM
I thought evasion was what triggers the block animation, so wouldnt a fighter get in less hits if their evasion was higher since their attacks would be interrupted more often?

Technically yes, but as I said, the EVP modifier for most melee jobs is very low (aF is very high, the rest are a lot lower), so even picking a Newman you don't block too much. For Acrofighter it isn't too bad as you can use the blocking to do Just Counters, but even then the blocking doesn't get annoying.



get the picture? you say it is easy NOW because it is en vogue to bitch about that. You certainly have a right to state that you felt the game was easy back then, but you didn't share it then.

Bottom line is it will be plenty fun and challenging at first, just like it was for everyone else at level 1, when you had no money to load up on scapes AND refill your PP AND buy healing items....

No, PSU was always easy for me. It was slightly more difficult before AoI landed, due to the lack of Just Attack and so on, but it still wasn't hard. I never struggled for money aside from the first 10 levels- and even that was only because I wanted to buy clothes which cost 20k (!), which back then seemed like a huge amount of money. As for the game itself though...no, it's always been easy, with VERY few exceptions. Starting off in AoI makes things even easier, as you can use Just Attack to do a lot more damage than v1 players ever could, and money is more plentiful now too.

I thought the game was easy back then too, and nothing has changed. I KNOW I thought it was easy, because when Lab Recovery S released (yes, S), I was hoping it'd be like PSO's Phantasmal World quests, which were pretty difficult. As it turned out, it wasn't close and was actually pretty easy.

Like I said, I've played Newman Hunter on PSU for ages- not since the game launched, but I definitely had one in v1 because I remember running 1UP Cup with her. Yes, other races are easier to play Hunter classes as, but again I say it isn't hard as a Newman, at ANY level.

Keilyn
Jan 5, 2010, 06:55 AM
Ahh, I read her post; to me it looked like she said that she isnt doing better than Cast/Beasts with near perfect equipment, which is understandable, but I was curious to know if she were outperforming casts/beasts equipped similarly to herself since things like Class bonuses for hybrid jobs could come into play.

It sort of like, well Ima just throw in some random numbers to make a point, A beast with a 25% axe can do as much damage as a newman with a 50% axe because of beasts higher ATP. But maybe if both had a 25% axe, the newman could do more damage because of a hidden bonbus, sort of like how Human protransers traps do more damage than casts of the Same Character/Job Level ( or so I've read).

Just want to help your post ^^ Lets take 0/10 ank zagza + L/PC and female characters

Newearl + L/PC + zagza = 3494
Gal + L//PC + zagza = 3998

3998/3494 = 1.1442

14.42% is the power difference on neutral Axe (favored to female beast). Suppose we factor out the Units..

3598/3094 = 1.1628

16.28% power difference (favored to female beast)

It means if there was a hidden bonus in order to do as much damage it must also account for this 14 - 16% range. It means if no hidden power exists and both wield a 25% Axe, the beast will do 14 - 16% more damage. ^_^

Yusaku_Kudou
Jan 5, 2010, 12:37 PM
Just want to help your post ^^ Lets take 0/10 ank zagza + L/PC and female characters

Newearl + L/PC + zagza = 3494
Gal + L//PC + zagza = 3998

3998/3494 = 1.1442

14.42% is the power difference on neutral Axe (favored to female beast). Suppose we factor out the Units..

3598/3094 = 1.1628

16.28% power difference (favored to female beast)

It means if there was a hidden bonus in order to do as much damage it must also account for this 14 - 16% range. It means if no hidden power exists and both wield a 25% Axe, the beast will do 14 - 16% more damage. ^_^

Where this usually fails for most hunters is they are using badly grinded/wrong element weapons with lower PAs. But even if a player has all the best gear above me, you still have to be able to aim yourself to hit the enemies. It is easy to mess up your alignment when using Majarra or Jabroga, or slower, more stationary PAs like Gravity Break and Redda.

stinkyfish97
Jan 5, 2010, 12:45 PM
damage is overated. If you hit 6100 as a female newman with jabroaga on a mob of enemies and you hit 6500 as a female beast it all winds up the same, the mob=dead in one shot. Sadly this game doesnt require you to absolutly need the greatest weapons, in fact lvl 50 pa and neutral weapons will get you through pretty much every mission.

stinkyfish97
Jan 5, 2010, 12:46 PM
If you really wanna play a fun class, try out cast AT. Buffs are a beautiful thing and then you have an suv. :-)

Yusaku_Kudou
Jan 5, 2010, 03:24 PM
If you really wanna play a fun class, try out cast AT. Buffs are a beautiful thing and then you have an suv. :-)

This is actually pretty fun... the only teching class I can put up with for a long time. When the PA level extension comes out, I'll be making sure to give my twin daggers some LV30 loving! Buffs and Paradi is win.

SuperRygar
Jan 5, 2010, 04:37 PM
I think the question is, would YOU make a good hunter? regardless of class/race/stats you have to have a certain level of skill to be a "good" hunter. sure anybody can 'mindlessly' rampage through a mission. but to be a good hunter you would have to deal as much damage as fast as you can and take the least amount of damage all the while helping about a party member who is frozen/stun/sleep. to me thats the basic definition of a good hunter. also using knock back and launch effectively. spamming tornado dance is NOT using this effectivly unless everyone else is a gunner.

and about the game being easy, yeah its way too easy. the main reason is that scape dolls are purchasable. think of how much different the dynamic of a mission would be if you had to actually worry about death :O of course, with the amount of megid that flies around im sure everyone would complain about how hard those missions are. even know some people complain about megid. damned if you do and damned if you dont :/

pinkace
Jan 5, 2010, 07:05 PM
No, PSU was always easy for me. It was slightly more difficult before AoI landed, due to the lack of Just Attack and so on, but it still wasn't hard. I never struggled for money aside from the first 10 levels- and even that was only because I wanted to buy clothes which cost 20k (!), which back then seemed like a huge amount of money. As for the game itself though...no, it's always been easy, with VERY few exceptions. Starting off in AoI makes things even easier, as you can use Just Attack to do a lot more damage than v1 players ever could, and money is more plentiful now too.

I thought the game was easy back then too, and nothing has changed. I KNOW I thought it was easy, because when Lab Recovery S released (yes, S), I was hoping it'd be like PSO's Phantasmal World quests, which were pretty difficult. As it turned out, it wasn't close and was actually pretty easy.

Like I said, I've played Newman Hunter on PSU for ages- not since the game launched, but I definitely had one in v1 because I remember running 1UP Cup with her. Yes, other races are easier to play Hunter classes as, but again I say it isn't hard as a Newman, at ANY level.

I believe you. But neither you nor anyone else was posting about the game's low difficulty 18 months ago, 2 years ago or 6 months after launch. My point was that you (yes, I'm singling you out, sorry) are saying the game is easy publicly because it is now the best thing to bitch about, being that "no updates" bitching is out (the game received almost one update a month for the duration of 2009).

At least be original and complain about something no one else bitches about. ;)

Deragonite
Jan 5, 2010, 07:11 PM
If you're talking about Fighmasters, newmans make the worst Fighmasters of the 4 races.

That doesn't mean you can't be good with a newman Fighmaster. Unlike Masterforce, Fighmaster is so overpowered that it isn't too difficult to do well as the worst race for the job.

Sexy_Raine
Jan 5, 2010, 07:31 PM
Meh, I wouldn't be caught dead leveling gimped hunter stats. I have a Male Cast for Fortefighter/Fighmaster, why would I want to sacrifice all those stats? It's a huge gap when you add the SUV. Unless Segduh gives us newman something unique where I'm not completely outdone by the Cast or Beast, then I may consider trying AF.

Gunmaster on the other hand, any race is overpowered. My F human GM outdamages most Cast ones who don't have equipment equal to hers.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 5, 2010, 08:06 PM
My F human GM outdamages most Cast ones who don't have equipment equal to hers.
Male Beast gonna outdamage ur puny shotgun output anyday.

Yusaku_Kudou
Jan 5, 2010, 08:46 PM
Everybody complains about PSU being too easy and then proceeds to pick race/class combinations that take no effort to be strong whatsoever. You know, some of us like to be challeneged... if you aren't going to initiate that step, don't complain.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 5, 2010, 08:55 PM
Everybody complains about PSU being too easy and then proceeds to pick race/class combinations that take no effort to be strong whatsoever. You know, some of us like to be challeneged... if you aren't going to initiate that step, don't complain.
And yet, I'd advise against doing so on the slight possibility that you ever get R missions.
When you're capped at lvl 20, even a minute difference in base stats makes a huge difference.

Splash
Jan 5, 2010, 09:06 PM
Well, as it is, even R missions could be considered as part of the challenge. I think the idea here is that you could go try challenging yourself with a hard race/class combo if you feel comfortable doing that. And if you don't, don't do it then.

Ceresa
Jan 5, 2010, 09:15 PM
Except for that whole pesky newman F FM can't equip any weapons in /R other then ice sword mil and Soda Claire+. Well I guess if you like that kind of challenge...

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 5, 2010, 09:17 PM
I guess that's the kind of challenge they're talking about...
Chasing Dima around with an Ice Sword for 30 mins barely denting him when he lands only to get C rank cause you kept getting OHKOed and didn't have enough DFP to even equip any armor.

Tek[+]Lok
Jan 5, 2010, 09:31 PM
All it means is that it will take longer to level up. That's all that matters in the end. Damage over time rate.

Keilyn
Jan 5, 2010, 11:19 PM
The cute thing about PSU is that if you truly were a powergamer and wanted the best possible, you would only need to make two characters:

Male Cast/ for TAing (Gunner and Hunter classes)
Female Newman for FT and MF

The funny thing is that beast is forced into using Red / Knight to hit high level targets due to low accuracy meaning a cast using LKK or LPC is going to have higher ATP and Accuracy than a female beast...While a player using a Beast is using Red Knight to try to turn a Beast into a Cast.

Then if you want the top damage MF, of course a female newman with level 50 techs cant be beat....

This take two out of your four character slots and can really demolish about anything the game has if you are a powergamer. ^_^ If you aren't a powergamer then do anything you want.

Tek[+]Lok
Jan 6, 2010, 07:20 AM
Though this game is about team play but sadly the community is rather dead. Just imagine all these power classes with support, especially with maxed buffs and debuffs.

DragonStriker
Jan 6, 2010, 08:56 AM
I just noticed this topic here, why does this have so many posts? lol There's only one true answer to this question, "Yes, any class can be good but playing on a non CAST will gimp you compared to what you would be able to do on a CAST" And that's in regards to every class besides Fortecher and Masterforce.

Hrith
Jan 6, 2010, 09:02 AM
Keilyn, 12% more ATP does not mean 12% more damage... >_>

Newmans are good hunters, just not excellent.

Keilyn
Jan 6, 2010, 09:34 AM
Keilyn, 12% more ATP does not mean 12% more damage... >_>

Newmans are good hunters, just not excellent.


If you do not factor DFP, it does mean 12% more damage. If you hit a target and see a damage number, it means DFP has been factored and can work better with percentages to apply how damage should scale....You will however get a yield in damage comparison serving as a multiplier between one and two. This yield will be closer to one at 170/20.

^_^

DragonStriker
Jan 6, 2010, 12:23 PM
If you do not factor DFP, it does mean 12% more damage. If you hit a target and see a damage number, it means DFP has been factored and can work better with percentages to apply how damage should scale....You will however get a yield in damage comparison serving as a multiplier between one and two. This yield will be closer to one at 170/20.

^_^

This makes absolutely no sense, if DFP is constant then 12% more atp should be 12% more damage with your logic. It's funny how you try and make it sound like you know what you are talking about, every topic it seems like you are trying to make your opinions seem like facts. I can assure you Newmans are not good fighters and no amount of numbers are going to change that. The only reason they are playable is the level of difficulty this game has, simply because every class can kill things remotely quickly. The argument "I still kill things fast" doesn't work because that has less to do with the class/gear than the fact that the game is just easy. This is why a FighMaster can run missions only slightly slower with 30% gear compared to 50% gear. Even though the 50% gear is very much better (In gear terms)

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 6, 2010, 05:19 PM
This makes absolutely no sense, if DFP is constant then 12% more atp should be 12% more damage with your logic. It's funny how you try and make it sound like you know what you are talking about, every topic it seems like you are trying to make your opinions seem like facts. I can assure you Newmans are not good fighters and no amount of numbers are going to change that. The only reason they are playable is the level of difficulty this game has, simply because every class can kill things remotely quickly. The argument "I still kill things fast" doesn't work because that has less to do with the class/gear than the fact that the game is just easy. This is why a FighMaster can run missions only slightly slower with 30% gear compared to 50% gear. Even though the 50% gear is very much better (In gear terms)
This.

Also, 50% weaponry does not equal 50% more damage...
It's closer to 36% and not linear, so any calculations she about newman needing XX% weaponry to make up the gap are simply wrong ^_^
Pulling numbers out of your ass to make yourself look good when you do not know the fundamentals of PSU, not working very well ^_^

Keilyn
Jan 6, 2010, 08:19 PM
I decided to test two svaltus swords under normal attack. Their stats are

0/10 30% Light
0/10 30% Ice

I went to SEED Awakened S3 and fought the first spawn only with normal attack. Since the enemies are Dark, it would mean the Ice weapon would function as a neutral weapon. I used normal attacks because from a normal attack you can derive a lot from this game.

Here is the video: (1280x720@60FPS)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C7iJyjvVz4

Here are the results I saw...tell me if you see different:


Low/High Ranges
Ice (functioning as neutral): 429 - 465
Light: 560 - 614

560/429 = 1.3053 //comparison of Lows
614/465 = 1.3204 //comparison of Highs

L/H Average

587/447 = 1.3131


This.

Also, 50% weaponry does not equal 50% more damage...
It's closer to 36% and not linear, so any calculations she about newman needing XX% weaponry to make up the gap are simply wrong ^_^
Pulling numbers out of your ass to make yourself look good when you do not know the fundamentals of PSU, not working very well ^_^

Translating your reply into Mathematical Logic, you are saying a 50% weapon does 90.6% its damage potential. (136/150 = 0.9066), but of course you state you have observation but no real direct evidence to prove the elemental percentages are not 1 : 1. If variance causes a low number that results in a low PA damage, then its not elemental percentage.


This makes absolutely no sense, if DFP is constant then 12% more atp should be 12% more damage with your logic. It's funny how you try and make it sound like you know what you are talking about, every topic it seems like you are trying to make your opinions seem like facts. I can assure you Newmans are not good fighters and no amount of numbers are going to change that. The only reason they are playable is the level of difficulty this game has, simply because every class can kill things remotely quickly. The argument "I still kill things fast" doesn't work because that has less to do with the class/gear than the fact that the game is just easy. This is why a FighMaster can run missions only slightly slower with 30% gear compared to 50% gear. Even though the 50% gear is very much better (In gear terms)

You obviously did not understand my mathematical reasoning which is why you started attacking me all over the place. However, damage translates to number of hits required to make a kill vs a target. There is a percentage limit and a grind limit on a weapon which serves as a maximum vs a target. Beyond that maximum one can not reduce the total number of hits to kill a target any further.

If an enemy has 6000 HP and we are both MFs and your Diga hits for 5000 and mine hits for 3000...We both still require two hits to kill the target and both have the same speed at killing that one target.

Give me the credit at least I presented a video and spent some time giving you a real world test...The numbers from the results matched the element percentages well....Now im wondering if FOnewearl Lina likes Stec Swords which have 90% of their potential on them as a restriction or if Lina believes that a piecewise function exists to deal with damage.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 6, 2010, 08:48 PM
or if Lina believes that a piecewise function exists to deal with damage.
I don't care if you made a video to illustrate your point, the fact that 3 separate and unrelated individuals on this forum have told you that you're wrong speaks volumes in itself, and in the same thread too.

Tek[+]Lok
Jan 6, 2010, 08:57 PM
So basically picking a human is pointless.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 6, 2010, 09:06 PM
Human AF rocked the Absolute Zero bonus mission a few events back.
It's pretty solid if you take GAS (Guardians Advanced Style) into account.
Not as strong as FM of course, but well rounded.

DragonStriker
Jan 6, 2010, 09:17 PM
I decided to test two svaltus swords under normal attack. Their stats are

0/10 30% Light
0/10 30% Ice

I went to SEED Awakened S3 and fought the first spawn only with normal attack. Since the enemies are Dark, it would mean the Ice weapon would function as a neutral weapon. I used normal attacks because from a normal attack you can derive a lot from this game.

Here is the video: (1280x720@60FPS)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C7iJyjvVz4

Here are the results I saw...tell me if you see different:


Low/High Ranges
Ice (functioning as neutral): 429 - 465
Light: 560 - 614

560/429 = 1.3053 //comparison of Lows
614/465 = 1.3204 //comparison of Highs

L/H Average

587/447 = 1.3131



Translating your reply into Mathematical Logic, you are saying a 50% weapon does 90.6% its damage potential. (136/150 = 0.9066), but of course you state you have observation but no real direct evidence to prove the elemental percentages are not 1 : 1. If variance causes a low number that results in a low PA damage, then its not elemental percentage.



You obviously did not understand my mathematical reasoning which is why you started attacking me all over the place. However, damage translates to number of hits required to make a kill vs a target. There is a percentage limit and a grind limit on a weapon which serves as a maximum vs a target. Beyond that maximum one can not reduce the total number of hits to kill a target any further.

If an enemy has 6000 HP and we are both MFs and your Diga hits for 5000 and mine hits for 3000...We both still require two hits to kill the target and both have the same speed at killing that one target.

Give me the credit at least I presented a video and spent some time giving you a real world test...The numbers from the results matched the element percentages well....Now im wondering if FOnewearl Lina likes Stec Swords which have 90% of their potential on them as a restriction or if Lina believes that a piecewise function exists to deal with damage.


I said things in 2 topics.

Keilyn
Jan 7, 2010, 02:14 AM
I believe that you are a weeaboo idiot.

I don't care if you made a video to illustrate your point, the fact that 3 separate and unrelated individuals on this forum have told you that you're wrong speaks volumes in itself, and in the same thread too.

Lets see..

Insulting me directly and conforming to an Argumentum Ad Populum response is a clear sign in any debate that your argument has nothing left and has escaped the bounds of logic and reasoning. For future reference, please back up anything you say with direct evidence.


I said things in 2 topics.

Your reply speaks for itself. ^_^

biggabertha
Jan 7, 2010, 03:03 AM
Hunh..? How does a Human Acrofighter take on a Bonus mission well..? All I can think of is the ridiculous Stamina that girls get and the Evasion. Invincible Just Counters and no fear of Megids or something..? (I seem to remember something about Ikk Hikk being awesome too...)


Lets see..

Insulting me directly and conforming to an Argumentum Ad Populum response is a clear sign in any debate that your argument has nothing left and has escaped the bounds of logic and reasoning. For future reference, please back up anything you say with direct evidence.

Most of the time, I would agree with you but I can't make sense of your point in your posts this thread. The maths you used seems to me to be the same kind of maths used by politicians where they manipulate statistics to emphasise or falsify data.

For example, saying something like "30 casulties on the road in the past five years" makes you think on average, that there have been six deaths per year. For all we know, it could have been a bus full of people (29 passengers, 1 driver) that crashed four years ago. I know it isn't exactly what you said but I am really finding it hard to follow your example with the two Longswords.

As for your example on Diga two-shotting enemies, critical hits will make the 5000 diga, one hit kill the enemy. That's not in your calculations or argument at all and the scenario is a very real thing. Then there's the whole ATA issue with melee and bullets to work around.... which is where you started off with the Red / Knight argument. Switching your example/argument to TECHNICs that do not miss so-long-as-they-phyiscally-hit (nothing more fail than physically missing with TECHNICs when half-asleep) makes your point look nicer - but it doesn't really flow to me.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 03:49 AM
For future reference, please back up anything you say with direct evidence.
Oh, I have evidence.
I just don't see the need to press my argument any further, seeing as the number of people that don't understand you just seems to keep increasing. I don't even need to put up a fight and I've already won.

unicorn
Jan 7, 2010, 03:58 AM
Questions:
1. Why does FOnewearl-Lina feel like he/she needs to win, and why is he/she so mean? :(

2. So um... you guys are basically saying we should all just play CAST huh? Because you all seem to get violently angry at Newmans for some reason.

3. When will this thread be locked? I sense tension that shouldn't be needed.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 04:01 AM
Because I'm a Ghost Buster, and Bustin' makes me feel good!

Besides, she called me a HUnewearl...

Volcompat321
Jan 7, 2010, 05:41 AM
Besides, she called me a HUnewearl...

LMAO!
Also, Keilyn, I have to agree with Bigga.
You seem to bend statistics.
inb4lock/deleteposts.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 05:57 AM
Omg don't lock before letting me play my card!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N7he4XeWQs

Quick and dirty, on a PR1.
Don't wanna waste time runing around like a headless chicken dodging megid (only to get hit by it anyway)

Volcompat321
Jan 7, 2010, 06:08 AM
Oh...and not to be nitpicky, but since when was using an elemented weapon, but not the opposing element count as neutral?
Wouldn't the ice do more damage than an actual neutral?
If you're going to make some videos, get a 30%:wacko: neutral, and 30% ice gek and test that out.
I'm genuinely curious.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 06:14 AM
Nah, it shouldn't matter. Anyway, why would you waste meseta on a non-elemental weapon? (no, I don't keep any lying around)

Volcompat321
Jan 7, 2010, 06:20 AM
Nah, it shouldn't matter. Anyway, why would you waste meseta on a non-elemental weapon? (no, I don't keep any lying around)

Well personally I wouldn't, but I'm sure it would only cost 10k for a neutral gek.
Maybe not that cheap, but I'm sure it would be cheap as hell, no matter which server you're on.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 06:22 AM
But in order to make a fair comparison, I'd have to grind it to 10...

Volcompat321
Jan 7, 2010, 06:24 AM
Hmm, why not buy a low-mid% :ice: 0/10 Gek, just to test it out.

You don't have to have two 10/10's to test it. Just need 2 0/x to test.
But it's not a big deal. I was just curious.

Deragonite
Jan 7, 2010, 08:20 AM
I see an actual formula was never provided!

http://calc.psupedia.info/

The formula that calc.psupedia.info uses is roughly as follows:

(ATP)/5 * (PA Modifier) * ( 1+Element*(109/150) ) * (1+Buff)

ATP = Character ATP + Units/Armor/etc
PA Modifier = PA Modifier % / 100
Element = Weapon Elemental %
Buff = % boost from shifta

However I am led to believe that the formula used above is slightly incorrect with the correct one being the following:

(ATP)/5 * (PA Modifier) * (1+Element*.75) * (1+Buff)

Here are some examples of the 1st formula being put into practice. I chose low leveled monsters because their DFP is essentially negligible (perhaps reducing 20 damage out of 1k+).

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3StatsTD-1.jpg

The 2886 is the character's total ATP with the weapon which is a 9/9 50% Light Carriguine-Rucar. This is the number you want to plug into the PSU Damage Calculator for ATP (and leave weapon/unit ATP at 0 for simplicity).

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3none.jpg
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3TD-1.jpg

Now let's plug in the numbers in to the 1st formula.
2886/5 * 2.8 * ( 1+0*(109/150) ) * (1+.15) = 1858

What's interesting to note is that my Tornado Dance did more than 1858 leading me to believe in the 2nd formula.

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3on.jpg
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3TDon-1.jpg

Same thing as above and also the same result with TD doing more than the calculated number.
2886/5 * 2.8 * ( 1+.5*(109/150) ) * (1+.15) = 2533

http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3off.jpg
http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt140/ellipsis563/3TDoff-1.jpg

For this one, the element factors in as -50%.
2886/5 * 2.8 * ( 1-.5*(109/150) ) * (1+.15) = 1183

This leads me to the conclusion that .75 is probably a more accurate multiplier to the elemental % than 109/150 is.

Although this does not resolve any disputes you all might be having, the PSU Damage Calculator is very accurate and you can use that to offer empirical evidence.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 10:02 AM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/element1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/element2.jpg
So if I take Deragonite's example, and just alter the elemental% like so...

And then divide the upper number by the lower number and what do I get?

biggabertha
Jan 7, 2010, 10:31 AM
Wow!!
36.34% difference..! (Rounded up)

zomgzomgzomg it's not 50% extra damage!!!

Keilyn
Jan 7, 2010, 10:32 AM
That is my point...everyone is leading to "believe" in a formula so strongly they are attempting to pass it as though it were "fact" on the belief of what the majority agree with...All it generates is an "Ad Populum" response. ^_^

The truth is that no one truly knows the exact formula and everyone is attempting to make "estimates." Even that calculator was programmed by a person who believed in a formula and though Rau did try...but it doesn't explain how I managed to go beyond 1.30 in my video in comparison.

That formula is incomplete as it does not account for variance. The fact Damage is not a constant number means there is a variance effect not taken into account...probably because no one knows and instead they are trying to tag a percentage into another variable to make up for one variable no one knows how to calculate...

As my old math teacher would say before she perished: "Shame on you for playing god, silly little human...Shame on you!"

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 10:46 AM
Where's your high and mighty 'For future reference, please back up anything you say with direct evidence'. Now?

I provided you with the video evidence you asked for, but you totally ignore it.
Fight the losing battle to the end Keilyn.
Don't just ignore it because it doesn't support your view.

As for weapon variance, weapons have an upper limit and a lower limit, it's not rocket science.
http://forum.psupedia.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=614
If variance is such a big issue for you (now), try it again with a low variance weapon maybe?
Beats suddenly turning around and going "Ooops! I forgot to account for variance! Silly me!"

And don't just suddenly change the point of your argument just because your original one has no legs left to stand on.
Ohnoes, PSUcalc is wrong! If you don't like the damage formula others have provided, well maybe you can come up with your own instead of shitting on their research.
Well guess what? Your calculations earlier in this thread were alot worse!
You'd think that with all the people saying your arguments don't make sense, you'd have learnt to stop doing that by now.

For someone such as yourself, ad populum response is more than enough.
Especially when you keep changing your argument, are wrong about so many things people have problems keeping up with you.
^_^

DragonStriker
Jan 7, 2010, 01:04 PM
That is my point...everyone is leading to "believe" in a formula so strongly they are attempting to pass it as though it were "fact" on the belief of what the majority agree with...All it generates is an "Ad Populum" response. ^_^

The truth is that no one truly knows the exact formula and everyone is attempting to make "estimates." Even that calculator was programmed by a person who believed in a formula and though Rau did try...but it doesn't explain how I managed to go beyond 1.30 in my video in comparison.

That formula is incomplete as it does not account for variance. The fact Damage is not a constant number means there is a variance effect not taken into account...probably because no one knows and instead they are trying to tag a percentage into another variable to make up for one variable no one knows how to calculate...

As my old math teacher would say before she perished: "Shame on you for playing god, silly little human...Shame on you!"

This post is completely different than the one where you said that 12% actually did mean 12% more damage. if you want I'll be happy to quote you. It's funny how you are accusing us of making up unproved numbers with a formula that's not perfect because in the past few weeks I have seen you do the exact same thing, except you just made them up without even using the damage calculator.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 01:30 PM
It's even more funny how she keeps changing her argument to suit her needs :p

SuperRygar
Jan 7, 2010, 02:16 PM
What's funny to me is how people like FOnewearl-Lina and Dragonstriker turn these things into personal attacks. Neither side is going to convince the other that their formula is correct, so why go beyond what your argueing about and make it personal?

Nayto the Fighmaster
Jan 7, 2010, 02:21 PM
What's funny to me is how people like FOnewearl-Lina and Dragonstriker turn these things into personal attacks. Neither side is going to convince the other that their formula is correct, so why go beyond what your argueing about and make it personal?

Well Rygar,from my past experiences, that's just what Elitist do. No offense Lina. Just putting my opinion out there.

DragonStriker
Jan 7, 2010, 02:38 PM
What's funny to me is how people like FOnewearl-Lina and Dragonstriker turn these things into personal attacks. Neither side is going to convince the other that their formula is correct, so why go beyond what your argueing about and make it personal?

This is perhaps the greatest post of all time, you accuse us of pesonally attacking people by personally attacking us lol. Anyways it's not like this matter is the first time keilyn or whoever has given people unfounded facts and presented them as facts. In all honesty I'm just fed up with reading the garbage people spew across these forums. Yes I probably did personally attack them but when you go out of your way to make up facts perhaps a personal attack is needed to make you understand you are simply making stuff up. Now if you didn't read the topic you will see we are using a damage calc and numbers to present our argument, obviously there is no convincing when it comes to facts.

DragonStriker
Jan 7, 2010, 02:41 PM
Well Rygar,from my past experiences, that's just what Elitist do. No offense Lina. Just putting my opinion out there.

Really? You know absolutely nothing about Lina let alone if she/he is elitist. It's hilarious how people assume there are people out there who are truly "elitists". That word is the most overused piece of garbage known to forums. Just because someone makes a joke and puts "elitist" in their signature(Or whatever) doesn't mean they are smply arguing without any reason. Seriously actually read the topic and quit making assumptions about people.

Keilyn
Jan 7, 2010, 02:44 PM
Where's your high and mighty 'For future reference, please back up anything you say with direct evidence'. Now?

I provided you with the video evidence you asked for, but you totally ignore it.
Fight the losing battle to the end Keilyn.
Don't just ignore it because it doesn't support your view.

As for weapon variance, weapons have an upper limit and a lower limit, it's not rocket science.
http://forum.psupedia.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=614
If variance is such a big issue for you (now), try it again with a low variance weapon maybe?
Beats suddenly turning around and going "Ooops! I forgot to account for variance! Silly me!"

And don't just suddenly change the point of your argument just because your original one has no legs left to stand on.
Ohnoes, PSUcalc is wrong! If you don't like the damage formula others have provided, well maybe you can come up with your own instead of shitting on their research.
Well guess what? Your calculations earlier in this thread were alot worse!
You'd think that with all the people saying your arguments don't make sense, you'd have learnt to stop doing that by now.

For someone such as yourself, ad populum response is more than enough.
Especially when you keep changing your argument, are wrong about so many things people have problems keeping up with you.
^_^


I provided you with the video evidence you asked for, but you totally ignore it.
Fight the losing battle to the end Keilyn.
Don't just ignore it because it doesn't support your view.

Lets see...You delivered a video, but never quantified it. I quantified mine in the same post I delivered it. All you did was stand up and say "This is exhibit A, a video" and then sit back down.


As for weapon variance, weapons have an upper limit and a lower limit, it's not rocket science.
http://forum.psupedia.info/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=614
If variance is such a big issue for you (now), try it again with a low variance weapon maybe?
Beats suddenly turning around and going "Ooops! I forgot to account for variance! Silly me!"

The issue for me is having a full formula which takes all variables into account and can be used for better precision in calculating damage.


And don't just suddenly change the point of your argument just because your original one has no legs left to stand on.
Ohnoes, PSUcalc is wrong! If you don't like the damage formula others have provided, well maybe you can come up with your own instead of shitting on their research.

What makes you think I haven't worked or tested towards formulas myself? :) And yes....saying someone is wrong or not believing what another person says is equivalent to shitting on someone....

Thanks for showing the kind of person you are....^_^


For someone such as yourself, ad populum response is more than enough.
Especially when you keep changing your argument, are wrong about so many things people have problems keeping up with you.

My Initial argument revolved around damage itself and it has been backed with evidence and quantified. The fact that I have to quantify your own video for your in my head because you can't do it yourself publicly is an insult to research itself.

Your video did not prove mine wrong, nor did mine prove yours wrong. Both Videos are data....nothing more...just data itself.

Your mistake was making a claim, throwing a video without quantifying it and then using that as a conclusion before considering anything else. Your second mistake was believing that your argument which is inconclusive can override my own, which is also inconclusive...since we are both missing data...

Finally your third mistake was believing that someone saying "I think you're right" is the equivalent to your argument being true.

Also, just because I don't post every 30 seconds doesn't mean I have gone away. I've been in PSU-Japan raising my character and taking care of things.


This post is completely different than the one where you said that 12% actually did mean 12% more damage. if you want I'll be happy to quote you. It's funny how you are accusing us of making up unproved numbers with a formula that's not perfect because in the past few weeks I have seen you do the exact same thing, except you just made them up without even using the damage calculator.

An Argument can have multiple points. Make sure you remember that on your way out. Mine has three points, you guys know two of the three...can you figure out the third point?

Nayto the Fighmaster
Jan 7, 2010, 02:45 PM
Really? You know absolutely nothing about Lina let alone if she/he is elitist. It's hilarious how people assume there are people out there who are truly "elitists". That word is the most overused piece of garbage known to forums. Just because someone makes a joke and puts "elitist" in their signature(Or whatever) doesn't mean they are smply arguing without any reason. Seriously actually read the topic and quit making assumptions about people.

And you seriously stop making personal attacks at people. First off bucko, I was stating my opinion. For all YOU know I could be her/his relative.
So back off, pal. I'm the wrong guy to start stuff with.

Nayto the Fighmaster
Jan 7, 2010, 02:48 PM
Besides we're WAY off topic. This thread was meantt o answera simple question ,and then it turned into a big pointless debate about damage and such. Which in turn turned into attacks and jabs.

I'd understand if this was Diablo 2... but come on. Seriously?

"Winning battles" online are about a awesome as being able to count from one to ten. Get real, people.

FOnewearl-Lina
Jan 7, 2010, 05:02 PM
*points to title*
I don't mind being called an elitist, because I AM.

Dragwind
Jan 7, 2010, 05:04 PM
This topic has strayed far enough from it's purpose. If you want to discuss formulas, make a separate thread for it.