Duping:A dose of reality

[mj23thegoat]

A lot of people posting here seem to have an unsettlingly high level of concern about ''duping''. Some even go so far as to claim it will ''kill the game''.

The people who hate duping claim that it devalues the duped item, because it makes it less rare. That translates directly into ''I want to be able to have things other people don't, so I can feel special''. They believe that an item's value rests with its ''rarity''. What they don't seem to understand is that dupers, and those who don't mind duping but don't do it personally (like myself), believe that an item's value rests simply in its existance.

Anti-dupers think of items like dollar bills - only The Powers That Be can ''make'' them, and those who have them are somehow more privileged than those who don't.

Dupers think of items like songs - the fun is in simply having and using them and a perfect ''copy'' of the item has exactly as much value as a ''real'' item. Why do I like having a Double Saber? Because it looks cool and is something different to make the game more interesting. Why do I like a Spread Needle? Because it makes the game easier and faster.

Anti-dupers are like Metallica whining about Napster. But there's a difference here - everyone, regardless of using duped items or not, paid for the game already (not EVERYONE, of course, but copying games is a whole nother subject). A ''rare'' item does not have any REAL WORLD VALUE. Copying it through a clever subversion of the game (dropping it and loading a backed-up save) does not cause any REAL WORLD HARM to anyone. You don't want a free Spread Needle? Fine. Don't take it!

All that duping does - in the real world of real people - is make people who think they're ''special'' because they found a ''rare item'' feel less ''special''. Duping is not done through modification of game or save code, so it doesn't actually ''hurt'' the game itself. I'll be the first to denounce anyone who uses a GameShark or in any other way modifies any actual code.

Bottom line: Sega screwed up. Instead of allowing rares to simply be random (or based on Luck, or anything that makes sense) they chose to ''time-release'' them. This system PUNISHES GOOD PLAYERS. If I can get my character to lvl 70 in under 100 hours (entirely possible), why should I have to literally WASTE TIME just to get to the point where I can find something new and fun? I'm sorry, but that's idiotic.

[Ambrai]

I respect your opinion but you couldnt be further from the truth. Duping reduces the value of an item. Both in game and in real life. Lets use RL as an example. Great example is the Playstation 2. Demand vs supply econ 101 applys here. PS2 was rare and the value of it was super high. So high that people were willing to pay above and beyond the origional price for it. Now that sony is mass producing them and in a matter of 1 month they will be in all stores collecting dust because they made too many. The result, price will drop (what I am waiting for).

Second example. EQ related.

Lets take an item from a long spawning mob. Nagafen to be exact. Item is the Cloak of Flames. Mob spawns every 7 days. 1 out of 32 gets the item per 7 days. Ebay value is est around 250 US dollars. Now if someone like yourself starts duping it, give it amatter of 2 days to see the value of this hard earned item reduced to 1 dollar.

Duping ammounts to one thing. By duping you state that you have no paitence and you do not like to play by the rules to 'earn' what everyone else does.

Since you dont want to 'earn' what others have to, you choose to cheat and steal for it. That makes dupers no better than the people who mug people irl, because they dont feel that they should have to work to earn money. They would rather just take the 'easy' way out and steal from others.

[Ambrai]

On 2001-03-04 07:22, mj23thegoat wrote:
Bottom line: Sega screwed up. Instead of allowing rares to simply be random (or based on Luck, or anything that makes sense) they chose to ''time-release'' them. This system PUNISHES GOOD PLAYERS. If I can get my character to lvl 70 in under 100 hours (entirely possible), why should I have to literally WASTE TIME just to get to the point where I can find something new and fun? I'm sorry, but that's idiotic.



Oh and on this note. Its offical that there is NO Time release that the entire thing is based on your Section ID and the difficulty that you play at. So this arguement holds no water.

[Ambrai]

Mod: Moved to cheaters.

[Xbob42]

DOn't take this the wrong way but you're a complete dumbass, duping sucks.

[Shado]

I disagree with your analysis of Dupers/Anti-Dupers. It really has nothing to do with, "I have Uber-Weapon X, and no one else does". It isn't a money-like issue. Anti-Dupers aren't Metallica whining about the money they won't get. Like you said, there no real world effect. Save one. Sega/Sonic Team has stated they'll shut servers down as they find cheaters, and Duping is a form of cheating in PSO. These server shut downs hurt everybody. Duping also defeats the spirit of the game. There are no time limits for finding special or rare items. With less than 40 game hours, my friend found two Delsabre Right Arms & two Kaladgolgs. On normal level! Finally, just because you spent $50 bucks for the game doesn't entitle you to anything and everything... You should have to play the game like everyone else.

[Ratsmack]

Okay, I'll agree with your main point, that weapons' stats stay the same no matter what their value is (something I've said before). Still, that doesn't make it all allright to dupe it. It's cheating, plain and simple, you NEVER earned the duped copy, even though you may have earned the original. Now, that alone makes it so anyone who dupes is an newbie shmuck, as cheaters are. And then comes your argument that "Oh, it's Sega's fault." That's such bullshit. "Oh, it's reality's fault for making me poor, so it's right that I mug people." Ummm...no? The game may have its faults, but it doesn't give you the right to run helter-skelter tossing rare items around so any honest player watches as newbies can spread needle the entire level and kill the game's challenge. So, your argument, which seems to base itself on Sega's oh-so-horrible faults, is moot.

[segagameplay]

sigh--- ok
1) segas statment on cheating is as follows:
Sega wants to create a fun and fair online gaming environment. Sega is currently reviewing all unfair gaming practices that may be occurring on Phantasy Star Online and will be making announcements regarding new policies
soon.
***note**** no where does this say anything about shutting down servers.
2)duping items does not decrease the likely hood you can find one on your own.
3)im not an lawyer but as for selling items ofline on sites such as ebay... Wouldnt that constitute as a violation of copywright law as you are making money off another companys copywrighted product with out paying sega its necasary fees.
4)its only a bloddy game!
now... if someone can tell me how duping actualy has hurt them in the game as it is a cooperative game not a competitive game then by all means tell me. And not fair does not qualify. Life isnt fair. Join the rest of us in the real world.

[Wyld]

the question is how has duping directly affected me or someone else in the game.

lets all think about this for a moment, yes the game is based on working with others but it is also based on trading obviously otherwise the section ID differences would not have been implemented.

Now lets say you have taken the time to find a particular item that is sought after on PSO now you go on the message boards looking for an item you would like to trade your hard fought and found item for, and lo and behold someone else has also already found this item and duped so many copies of it that its value is now so low that you cannot use it effectively as a trade item.

Also duping affects all trading due to the fact that dupers can and do offer an extreme amount of rare goods for any items they wish to acquire due to the fact that it costs them nothing they do not lose the item because they just make another copy of the item for the trades they do, thus a legit player has little to no chance of successfully trading for any items due to the high rate of duped items and the extreme amounts dupers can trade for items the wish to acquire.

WYLD

[Ratsmack]

Okay, sega, listen here. First of all, about the copyright thing? Just...don't talk. You're not stealing their ideas and selling it, you're not copying their program and selling it as your own, you're trading. T-r-a-d-i-n-g, you're selling something for realy money and then giving it to the person who ordered it. You're not taking the program for that weapon and giving it to them, you're giving them the item, something they can't use outside of the game. And it being "just a bloddy game" is every cheater's favorite argument. "Oh, oh, what are all you people complaining about! It's not real life, therefore I can do whatever the hell I want with whatever the hell I want!" Oh, there's some logic for you. Has duping hurt me? Yes. I see newbies running up to baddies with double sabers and killing them before I get a shot in. I see them with the rarest armors so they stay alive while I die and they steal my weapon. I don't like seeing rare items in any other hands besides the people's that found them.

[Marlboro]

I've decided to pass on duping but I would like to say something. If there was safe way to trade in the game then yes duping will be a bad thing. Till they make it safe to trade stuff duping is not a issue except with those whose choose to trade despite the high risk of getting jacked.

[segagameplay]

ok maybe i didnt mention this... I dont dupe. Nor do i steal. I just feel that thoese who do dont effect me. And yes. If you make a profit (real money) off of a copy written product that is a copy wrtie infringment if you do not pay the owner of the copy right. Sadly since the dollar amounts spoken of are so small... It is not worth the legal fees to prosecute thoese people hence the way the legal system works. Rest assured if they were selling for 3000 dollars suits would be filed.
As to the point of it makes it hard for you to trade... Then trade with a duper... hell give you all the items you want for your 1 hard found item. Basicly your talking inflation between players... 1 real item being worth a dozen to a dupper. Not willing to trade with a dupper? Then shut up and deal!

[Wyld]

the idea of trade with a duper or if your not willing to trade with a duper then shut up and deal.
okay segagameplay how about this instead of the legit players who don't want to add to the problem of duping by giving dupers a reason to dupe more and giving them more items to dupe how about this as a solution
SEGA ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE DUPERS!!
this game is incredible and people taking advantage of a simple flaw in the game is not playing the game in the spirit it was made and allowing them to do this to the game is not the actions of a company that cares about its consumers.
And just to point something out sega is becoming a third party progamming company and one of the many things that will push sega to the top of the list is sega.net but if they do not begin supporting there games online and stopping the rampant cheating sega.net will not mean anything in the realm of the third party programming for the simple fact that no one will want to play there online games except people who wish to take the short way out through taking advantage of any flaw a game has. nuff' said.

Wyld