PDA

View Full Version : What would you like to see in pso2?



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

bns1991
Sep 16, 2010, 11:48 AM
Sega has finally unveiled Phantasy Star Online 2! I'm sure that a lot of you are really excited about this and are curious about what will be different about this upcoming game that will separate it from any other phantasy star game. Share your ideas in this thread.

For me, the section id was a concept that made pso fun to play in the way that what you found varied depending on the id you had. I think that they should expand this concept.

parabolee
Sep 16, 2010, 11:57 AM
Well first and foremost I would like to see it come to consoles rather than just PC.

Other than that I want MAGS, section ID's and most importantly the art style to all return. I want most of the gameplay improvements of PSPo2, all the original PSO levels in glorious HD graphics and at least twice as many new ones.

Is free online too much to ask? Probably right?

Anything after that is a bonus :)

Ithildin
Sep 16, 2010, 12:08 PM
Love Mags and section IDs. I meant you had an excuse to make a different character. I'd like to see them return.

doubleEXP
Sep 16, 2010, 12:26 PM
I've said, for years now, that my vision for a true PSO sequel is:

* Recreate all the original levels in HD (perhaps they are reachable after the new levels are beat?)
* Create 10 completely new areas (2-3 levels per area) with as much care as the originals were created
* All new MAGS (as many as in PSO original)
* The ability to acquire/raise old MAGS (perhaps with special items)?
* 2 new weapon types per class
* Expansion of the original weapon classes
* Bring back the original music team to create the new musical score
* No voice chat -- but that's me since for me voice destroys immersion/escape
* Ability to use weapons and tech's while moving
* Improved collision detection -- walls should slow, not stop, the character
* Retain Section ID's

Really, I just want an up-to-date PSO with tons of new levels, new mags, new weapons, etc., and as many people from the original working on it as possible.

I don't say this lightly: as someone born in the 70's who has been playing video games since the very first Atari VCS (later called Atari 2600) came out, PSO is the single best video game I've ever played. I'm just praying PSO2 is made with the same passion, care, skill, and awesomeness that PSO was made with. If it is, it will be a game worth celebrating!

Shark11
Sep 16, 2010, 12:52 PM
I would like these things

-East and West play togeather
-Guild Support like BB
-Battle and Challenge mode
-Great level designs, not just boring samey dungeons like PSU

Wild card - As unlikely as it is I've always wanted an optional overworld to explore.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 16, 2010, 01:09 PM
* Bring back the original music team to create the new musical scoreIt's been more or less the same music team for PSU/PSZ/PSP.

doubleEXP
Sep 16, 2010, 01:32 PM
It's been more or less the same music team for PSU/PSZ/PSP.

Really? Because I still think the music in PSO is outstanding and most of the music in PSU was -- at best -- non-intrusive, and a lot of it I thought was just plain bad, with some notable exceptions of course.

I believe you, but boy does the music in PSO move me a million times more than the PSU/PSP music.

GenoGear
Sep 16, 2010, 01:48 PM
Bring back MAGs and the crazy weapons.

Tomeeboy
Sep 16, 2010, 02:02 PM
I think it would be great if they had some completely randomized areas, as well as some Diablo-style random/rare items to keep things interesting and fun when out hunting for rares.

Based on the translated list of features, it looks like we might be seeing community-driven or user-created content in PSO2, which could be really cool as well. If the "limitless content" translation is accurate, then I'd say this is probably what they are referring to. That's going to open up a whole new experience for everyone, and it's something that can constantly be refreshed with new content.

valuanguard
Sep 16, 2010, 02:12 PM
Id hope they pick just one system to release it on, and focus all on that. Looks like pc in this case. Thus, just release it on PC and only PC so it isnt bogged down by limitations brought on when trying to make it compatible with consoles simultaneously. See FFXIV and its terrible UI that pc users have to go through simply because the game is designed for ps3 users in mind. Or how PSU pc users got shafted in general because of psu's ps2 limitations.

Now you argue "just buy a controller".... a game advertised for PC should not have a user required to "buy a controller" just to navigate through basic UI aspects and gameplay. just my 2 cents

Shakuri
Sep 16, 2010, 02:37 PM
More unique Tech appearances.

The PSU Verse Gi/Dam/Ra techs all pretty much did the same thing, and served the same purpose.

Forster
Sep 16, 2010, 02:37 PM
For me, I would like to see:

The return of symbol chat and word select. For cross language communication.

No segregated servers, PSO Dreamcast had it perfect, you could just select the region.

Mag raising

Section ID's return.

Return to Normal, Hard, Very hard, and Ultimate difficulties.

Lobbies return, and maybe mini games that can be played in the lobby, that isn't lag soccer, and not the last lobby nobody goes in.

Red boxes being the main way to obtain rare weapons/items instead of crafting (hated that in PSU)

Forest 3 that unlocks when you get 4 level 200 characters to step on switches in the medical center.

Powder Keg
Sep 16, 2010, 02:55 PM
Technical:
- Same servers (no system or JP / Regional separations)

- A billing server that won't fail

- Fast responses to cheating/glitching (I know it's not always easy, but this can be responsible for losing chunks of players early on--and quick!)

Gameplay:
- Balance!! I know this isn't always easy either in the early stages, but it stinks having abilities in the game that are pretty much useless. I won't complain too much though, as many games have these things....just as long as something isn't broken to the point where it's the standard.

- Weather and day / night changes in all lobbies and missions. It would be awesome if there was a global game time system and it changed the time of day and the weather, which could also affect things like enemy spawns, or even what they drop...

- Rebalance how long it takes to level skills and abilities. I think this will happen already, as I'm hearing PSP2 did a good job of this. PSU Photon Arts are brutal to level up in most cases. Some are easy, but others are so much of a grind that make you want to pull your hair out. I honestly don't know how some can cap them all out at 50 (twice, even for those who migrated)

Zantra
Sep 16, 2010, 03:38 PM
I'd like Forces to stop sucking... even in PS0 you had changes to Forces, that I didn't enjoy.

Ryudo
Sep 16, 2010, 03:49 PM
no cheating
a large community
an actual economy

lostinseganet
Sep 16, 2010, 06:07 PM
16 player coop 200+ in lobbie
land ponieer 2
find out where ponieer 1 is and what exactly happened
meet red ring rungo face to face
Epsoide 1,2,4 content
Great graphics
World wide servers
under $15 per month
Lots of different enemies to fight" Not just the same ones reskined"
Melee combat simular to rune halls of valhalla " A damn melee good game"
Our own house/apartment with at least 3 floors
Lots of stuff to put in the house or apt
alots of clothes to choose
Not to have armors connected to clothes" That way everyone can look different"
3d gamming possible
The ability to look up down left right in third person or first person If it needs to be a toggle so be it.
Summons/ magic school girl transformations for magic users
Transform/ combine for robots "parts that in no way look human"
humans cool dodge and climb abilities aganst enemies
Ability to take to mods and communicate concerns. In game mods
Mags that are basically digimon and can transforms into cool stuff for 10 minutes at a time
Photon blast!

shadonic
Sep 16, 2010, 06:42 PM
i know PSO2 isn't supposed to be exactly PSO all over again, but if there are a few things i'd be able to see again it would definitely be

Mags
ID's
a huge varity of Weapons/armors

PSO was my first MMO i ever played, and probably the only one next to FFXI which i played for several years starting with PSO ver.1
i allways enjoyed hunting for rares together with friends, and i hope PSO2 offers a similar system like PSO did.

I hope PSO2 will be a real sequel to PSO, and Ragol plays a role again.
Not just some new PS MMO that's called PSO2 and then adapts to content of the PSU series.
That's my only worry actually, that PSO isn't PSO anymore after all those years.

Boxblaster
Sep 16, 2010, 07:09 PM
I see everyone clamoring for Section ID's. While I do support this, I'd like it to be NOT based on your name. I'd prefer it to be simply random. I'd also like that on top of character class to influence other drops, to create a lot of variation, to encourage trading. and I do NOT WANT PLAYER SHOPS. This is one of the biggest problems with PSU, as it takes away from player interaction. I always felt PSO was very close-knit, and personal.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 16, 2010, 07:34 PM
I agree with you 100% about shops, but I think drops varying based on ID and class is a little excessive. Section ID alone is enough, and they should let you pick it when you make your character, maybe even let you change it on the fly.

Allison_W
Sep 16, 2010, 07:52 PM
Actually, I imagine that drops varying based on class would be favoured over bringing back section IDs--three or four (depending upon whether Vanguard makes the cut) drop charts based on class is probably enough, as opposed to many more drop charts based on section ID, and class is a fairly reasonable way to figure what kind of drops a given player will consider relevant to their interests. Also, more recent works that contained different drop charts for different players used class, so I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to figure they're likely to keep using it.

That said, bringing back section IDs would by no means be actively offensive... as long as it doesn't require name finagling to get one that is actually relevant to your class and playstyle. If it were brought back, it would be best to follow the suggestions of earlier posters and allow the player to choose it at creation. I don't know about changing it on the fly per se, but being able to change it for a non-trivial administrative fee sounds reasonable.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 16, 2010, 07:55 PM
Well, I'd say the ideal situation would be to have class-based drop charts, but only if you are able to change your class on the fly like in PSU. You know they are going to pull out HUmar and friends for PSO2, it's not even a question. They better let you switch, though.

DragonStriker
Sep 16, 2010, 08:12 PM
A committed SoA or SoJ to community support, updates, and service. I have always loved and been able to enjoy any game in this genre but it's always come down to whether or not the game received the full attention on service it deserved. This will ultimately make or break whether or not I actually get this game and continue to play it.

DragonForce
Sep 16, 2010, 08:16 PM
Jetpacks or I GTFO.

DoubleJG
Sep 16, 2010, 08:25 PM
*Section IDs
*MAGs (I enjoy Partner Machines, but let's keep those in the Universe series)
*Symbol Chat
*Photon Arts (I do enjoy them quite a bit)

I don't know, but PSPo2 has given me what I always thought a PSO successor would offer, without a lobby, symbol chat, and section IDs.

DarkShadowX
Sep 16, 2010, 11:17 PM
*Section IDs. (Choose one at start, don't base it by names)
*Mags(all the old ones plus new ones for the game)
*Diverse weapon/armor selection.
*Committed SoA or SoJ for updates.
*Unique armors with Visuals(I think Visual Units were a bad idea)
*MOME!

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Sep 16, 2010, 11:31 PM
*Section IDs. (Choose one at start, don't base it by names)
*Mags(all the old ones plus new ones for the game)
*Diverse weapon/armor selection.
*Committed SoA or SoJ for updates.
*Unique armors with Visuals(I think Visual Units were a bad idea)
*MOME!
OMG UR RIGHT!

Vanzazikon
Sep 16, 2010, 11:39 PM
Most of the aspects I wanted for a PSO sequel has already been stated, but I didn't see anyone mention more unique combat animation for different classes. Yes, I'm talking about how a HUcast and a HUmar have the same combat animation for every weapon. I liked how HUcaseals had a different dagger and double saber animation from every other class. I'd like more of that. pronto!

SELENNA
Sep 17, 2010, 12:22 AM
Well it's simple to me : more PSO / PSO PSP than PSU

* Visible weapons and equipment in town
* MAGS (I want a plethora of them)
* Section IDs
* Being able to play with players from around the world (see : PSO initial advertising 10 years ago)
* More unique monsters, and rare ones
* Something to keep me on my toes while exploring the levels (traps, evolving terrain, etc.)
* Music by Fumitaka Shibata, Hideaki Kobayashi, Fumie Kumatani, Kenichi Tokoi, Tomonori Sawada
* Editable armors

There's more but I think SEGA knows PSO means a lot to this generation of players and won't screw us. I mean, look what happened to SONIC....they can redeem themselves of PSU now.

LoveRappy
Sep 17, 2010, 01:31 AM
I basically want what PSO was, with better character customization (something like PSU's), more story, more stages, more rare items to find, more monsters, more Mags and more quests!

A TRUE PSO!!!

I do agree that if there is Section IDs again they should be chooseable at character creation and not based on name/random.

I also hated the crafting and shops from PSU. Dont wanna see them have a comeback.

And keep Forces and Rangers to be like how they are in PSO. Forces and Rangers played very badly in PSU (that whole having to equip techs to use them and bullets costing TP or whatever it was called in PSU - just awful).

Hucast-Kireek
Sep 17, 2010, 01:42 AM
2 Things, a PS3 port and PSO Optional Clothes/Part you can buy like in PSU.

Also no more PM garbage, bring Mags.

Talwin
Sep 17, 2010, 04:37 AM
Jetpacks or I GTFO.

I lol'd :-P

I'm surprised that so many people want to choose their ID's! I agree section ID's shouldn't be based on name, but I don't like the idea of choosing them at the start, and especially don't like the idea of changing them at any point.

I'd much rather it was totally random. Sure you might want a God/battle and you're peeved cause you can't get one on you ID. So trade! Imo, adding a decent trading system in an MMO really helps a community work.

Saying that, mosst of my PSO experience is offline :-?

Allison_W
Sep 17, 2010, 04:41 AM
I lol'd :-P

I'm surprised that so many people want to choose their ID's! I agree section ID's shouldn't be based on name, but I don't like the idea of choosing them at the start, and especially don't like the idea of changing them at any point.

I'd much rather it was totally random. Sure you might want a God/battle and you're peeved cause you can't get one on you ID. So trade! Imo, adding a decent trading system in an MMO really helps a community work.

Saying that, mosst of my PSO experience is offline :-?

Just gonna say that the result of that will be the folks in the know remaking new characters over and over until they get their desired section ID, while the folks not in the know lose out.

Talwin
Sep 17, 2010, 04:46 AM
Yeah I did think that, which is a shame!

The only other option is to link it to the char name XD

ChronoTrigga
Sep 17, 2010, 05:59 AM
-Make it a true open ended multiple world game, where it takes more than 10 minutes to go from town to town.
-Mounts
-Same old school PSO gameplay but built upon.
-US Updates in a timely manner.
-No clumsyorchid fail admins
-momonpso2
-Dreamstation Guild. :D
-Instead of Photon Arts - Different Fighting styles to choose from.
-Twin Blaze HD
-Dark Falz (Frick Dulk Fakis)
-PSU style story missions
-

unicorn
Sep 17, 2010, 07:49 AM
HUmarl, HUnewm, RAnewm, RAnewearl, FOcast, FOcaseal


and HU/RA/FO for beasts and dyuman as well.

ChronoTrigga
Sep 17, 2010, 08:13 AM
The Motavians from PS4 > Beasts from PSU

zetoz
Sep 17, 2010, 10:37 AM
-The old system of item drops
-Section IDs
-old style of mags
-the old simple weapon names
-lots of red boxes
-PSO/PS0 class system (choose at beginning with race, unchangeable)

•Col•
Sep 17, 2010, 11:00 AM
Depending on where/when PSO2 takes place.... I'd like to see Beasts return...... People hate on them too much without much reason... D:

Tyreek
Sep 17, 2010, 11:20 AM
I would really enjoy this game having high-def graphics along with everything else. The Phantasy Star series deserves to be given the grade A treatment if they want to get with the times.

Aumi
Sep 17, 2010, 11:50 AM
I know this sounds rather vague, but it should take everything that is so good about PSO and expand upon it.

They should add a more advanced lobby system, character creation and character customization, much like PSU's, as well as a chat system like PSU's, possibly expanded. I'd like to see the combat additions from Phantasy Star Ř, as that was pretty much a more advanced and more fast-paced, though still quite tactical system that still had everything I liked about PSO's gameplay.

As for the technical stuff, they should upgrade the graphics beyond PSU's, but still keep it limited to what works on an average rig. Other developers can do it, so SEGA should also be able to do it as well.

Razan
Sep 17, 2010, 12:33 PM
What I want to see most of all is the unwillingess to follow the usual MMO design, with too many buttons, horrible controls, unresponsive actions, etc.

PSO is at its core an action RPG. You can make a lot of variations to the idea, by adding, removing, etc. but that action RPG part of it, is constant. Of course, now, that's just my opinion, but anyway.

Relating to this and to my next point... as far as I can tell, PSO2 was announced only for PC, which is pretty much the only thing that bothers me as a lot of the things I mentioned above are consequences of PC design, which is what I fear the most.

PSO was by design "a console game". It must stay as such. Now, it can be released only on the PC, that's not a problem, but it's design must be "console".

Also, MAGs. They're awesome. My dear, dear Sato. :)

valuanguard
Sep 17, 2010, 01:20 PM
Yes, pso2 should NOT have a PC-conventional MMo system aka "tab target" a mob, and the "run up, autoattack, press 1-9 for skills, etc." It should be dynamic "non-targeting", no auto attack, etc. PSU's control scheme for PC was just terrible imo, bought an x360 controller and never looked back.

People playing first-person shooters on consoles are generally shafted, because using mouse to aim and look around is MUCH better than using a stick on a controller....

so ill just refer to that game in open beta right now, Vindictus. Use wsad to move, mouse to move the camera angle around and move like a first-person shooter, left click for attack, right click for secondary attack, 1-9 can activate special moves, just no "click a mob run up and autoattack" nonsense......PC users get a mouse, they should utilize it

Razan
Sep 17, 2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, it's tricky thing.

You want to use the tools given to you, but then again the tools are often the thing that makes everything so... stale and usually needlessly complex (I'm looking at you FF14).

If you ask me, I think they should've just went and do this on PS3 and XO. Which might still happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. :/ Granted, you could've done less with it, that's for certain, but that's the point. I still believe that a large part of PSO's charm is caused by DC's limitations. Things that would've never happened if the game was made for the PC.

This is not about PSO2 anymore, but I still like to say this, whenever I get a chance, without a shadow of doubt in my mind :): Next evolution of MMOs will happen on a console. It will be more limited, more streamlined and simpler, but it will have more depth and it will play better than anything that came before it.

doubleEXP
Sep 17, 2010, 03:46 PM
I totally agree. One reason I can (and do) still play PSO from time to time is because of how stale and boring mmo's are -- and this from a long-time mmo player who finally quit the genre a few months ago. You just target something and auto-attack starts and then you trigger actions as they come off CD (cool down). Mmo's have their moments, and they tend to offer huge worlds (which are cool) and dynamic economies and all that, but at their heart they are designed to eat up your time while keeping you on a hamster treadmill for gear.

For sure PSO including a chase for gear, but the game itself -- each moment of it -- has a certain fun and charm that goes beyond the gear chase. Like Razan said, it is a true ACTION rpg, which means you swing your weapon in real time, you can actually sidestep enemy attacks (or dodge incoming missile attacks like lil megids, etc.) and you can get enemies to chase you, stop and attack, run, etc. In mmo's it's pretty much: enter range, fight to death triggering CD's as they come available. Huge difference. Even the twitchiest characters in WoW, for example, like a rogue, are still waiting on the GCD between each attack, whereas in PSO it's a matter of learning your weapons or techs and then executing in realtime. It's a completely different combat model, and it's part of what makes PSO unique.

Also, you can participate in all levels of PSO even without uber gear. I know that my Redria RAmarl, Zenith, is level 166 and she never had many good rares, and no uber rares ever. She still uses a Hell Arms with 50% hit and Freeze Vulcans with 50% hit -- relatively common drops in Ult mode. She had some mercy rares from friends (including a Frozen Shooter) but none had hit % and none were uber. Still, she could (and did) more than hold her own in Ult mode online. The super shiny rares were just something cool for hope for. In mmo's you have to grind for the rares in order to qualify for the next higher up grind, and so it goes.

Hopefully PSO2 will remember and continue the spirit of PSO and NOT be like a MMO or even like PSU. It doesn't have to be a clone of PSO, but I hope it genuinely feels like the true next gen of PSO, and not some mish-mash of PSO and PSU and PSP2 and WoW.

Zyrusticae
Sep 17, 2010, 04:07 PM
Next evolution of MMOs will happen on a console. It will be more limited, more streamlined and simpler, but it will have more depth and it will play better than anything that came before it.
I think you're a bit late (http://tera-online.com/) on this one. ;-)

Razan
Sep 17, 2010, 04:09 PM
@doubleEXP: Well said. All true. Those rares... sigh. Still remember when I got my doublesaber. But the monkey bar still eludes me. Or maybe that was v2. :/

Anyway. Reading that just lead to a little flashback to the early days of playing PSO. Caves in a group with 3 low levels and one high one. It was awesome at the time, I remember that much. The waterfall. But seriously, I think this is extremely important. Like getting to Ruins before your own time. Another one of those things, that might not work this well in a proper open environment of modern MMOs?

Like said, the huge worlds look great and give a lot of space, but considering the MMOs I've played, I'd still rather have the good old Pioneer, over a huge landscape with nothing else than a tree, an NPC in a corner with a exclamation mark above their head, and 3 hundred what you might call solo multiplayer gamers that want to have nothing to do with me.


I think you're a bit late (http://tera-online.com/) on this one. ;-)

We shall see, we shall see.

EDIT: Looking at the videos and the interface shots, I'd say no. N O. :p

Of course, my concept of the evolusion is more theory than actuality.

Rockleept
Sep 17, 2010, 04:17 PM
*Section IDs. (Choose one at start, don't base it by names)
*Mags(all the old ones plus new ones for the game)
*Diverse weapon/armor selection.
*Committed SoA or SoJ for updates.
*Unique armors with Visuals(I think Visual Units were a bad idea)
*MOME!

it's ok for MOME,but i hope we dont get nole(d)!!!

Zyrusticae
Sep 17, 2010, 05:01 PM
EDIT: Looking at the videos and the interface shots, I'd say no. N O. :p

Of course, my concept of the evolusion is more theory than actuality.
This is kind of off-topic, but actual gameplay tends to be a lot more informative (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-t-e-r-a/700829).

Razan
Sep 17, 2010, 06:09 PM
This is kind of off-topic, but actual gameplay tends to be a lot more informative (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-t-e-r-a/700829).

Yeah, I watched couple of small ones from youtube and while this was certainly better, it doesn't change anything, my answer remains ever the same. No. :) It doesn't seem bad, at all, of course. But as far as evolution goes, or my idea of it, not even close. Let's start with the button box and the chat window. Both of those need to go "puff".

But to return to topic... what I'd like to see... Vertical worlds. PSU had some of it, but now I'd like to see it made better. I loved the ship and planet idea from the first moments I saw PSO so I'd like that to continue.

Things should be kept small as possible whenever possible. No huge worlds/levels just for the sake of it. It's unnecessary. It's weird though, it's only in MMO games where huge landscapes without anything to do on is considered a good thing. I wonder why? I don't want to play a hiking simulator. Also team sizes, less people, more intimate, more personal. Bigger groups just lead to faceless interaction.

Monomates, gotta have monomates. I'm done for now.

Oh and word select. It's gotta have word select.

Tetsaru
Sep 17, 2010, 07:31 PM
Things I'd like to see in PSO2:

- A competent development/management team working on the game and keeping it updated.
- All regions and consoles play on the same servers, and receive updates simultaneously.
- No bullshit synthing or grinding systems. While I'm at it, no Kerselines or other similar useless "rare" items. Bring back Mono/Di/Trigrinders.
- No horribly reskinned/recycled enemies, maps, or weapons.
- Make stats like DFP and MST actually relevant, unlike in PSU.
- Make all classes able to use techs to varying degrees, without having to equip rods/wands first. Make said rods/wands able to perform physical attacks. DON'T MAKE TECHS LAG THE GAME.
- If enemies have multiple hitboxes, don't treat them as a pseudo "multiplier bonus" to allow hard-hitting players to shred through them and deal more damage. Techers didn't have this benefit early on with their AoE techs; why should melee fighters?
- Melee characters should NOT be able to hit flying enemies out of their reach, UNLESS THEY HAVE A PA TO DO SO. PERIOD. Use a ranged weapon (like a gun or slicer) or a tech.
- Don't make rare items incredibly easy to obtain, especially during events or through player shops. Also, don't flood the economy with so much meseta that everyone's selling items for stacks.
- Make each job/class be able to do something UNIQUE that no other class can do that doesn't involve stat-stacking of some sort (Protranser being the only class that can use EX Traps, Fighgunner being the only class that can use doublesabers, etc.; NOT Fighmaster can use Lv50 Skills where Fortefighter can only use Lv40, etc.)
- Return of MAG's as customizable equipment
- Return of ID system to influence drops and encourage trading
- Return of rare monsters, such as Hildeblues, etc.
- Return of rare weapons changing form as you attack, and having special abilities
- A better drop system so that players don't argue over drops or drop settings, or implement unique drops for each player similar to how PSZ was
- Increase the overall difficulty of the game from PSU. Players shouldn't be able to easily level up and solo zerg rush their way through everything all the time.
- Make missions more than just "kill everything and get to the end"
- Don't provide Scape Dolls to players at every fucking NPC store for cheap. Don't allow them to stack either. MAKE THEM RARE.
- TONS of character customization options
- Allow for first-person controls, especially for gunners
- If multiple planets are included in the game, make it to where we can explore more than just one town and the instanced missions associated with them.
- Include vehicles/mounts. (I never saw Lungas or tanks online on PSU, and Landeels and Airboards once... >_> ) Make them not control like ass, either.
- Include an auto-translate function (similar to what FF11 had) to help communicate across different languages. On that note, translate things properly. NEL's Claw? Agito REPCA?? Lern 2 ficks Engrish.
- Get rid of Gameguard "support." If you want support, play as an Acrotecher or start wearing a training bra. Ugh.
- Don't make the storyline lame, don't fill it with Japanese stereotypes. Bring back old PSO characters, but don't ruin them (for example, "UBWAAA!" )
- Perhaps include Dumans(?) and other old-school Phantasy Star races as playable characters. Also, give each race their own unique ability and balance them appropriately. People shouldn't have to sway towards playing CASTs or Beasts all the time.
- Don't make the chat system obnoxious and spammable. I hated seeing/hearing explosion-style bubbles and characters' faces spouting nonsense every time an event was going on in PSU. Not only did it make my screen look like the victim of a pop-up ad attack, IT SLOWED DOWN MY GAME AND I HAD TO BLACKLIST EVERYONE. The bubble system is cute and everything, but I'd much rather have either voice chat or have the text organized into a box that you can adjust, because those bubbles just obscure my view and get in the way. Furthermore, get rid of the retarded censoring, or at least be able to turn it off.
- Don't make PA's spammable to the point where normal attacks aren't even used.
- Include PA's in the game, but make some of them drop-only items instead of NPC-buyable. A system similar to PA Fragments can be implemented, but don't make it to where they become useless once you have everything that you can trade them for. Finally, make PA's to where you have to level them up for them to get stronger. To me, it makes sense to be able to find a disc for a new move, but not a disc of a move you may already have, but at a higher level; that's what weapons are for.
- Return of a "My Room" area from PSU that can be customized

I think that covers most of my concerns. :razz:

ChronoTrigga
Sep 17, 2010, 07:52 PM
Phantasy Star Zero's Status System. If I wanna melee with my wands, they better not be reliant on ATP instead of MST.
Moar slicers.
New weapon types (Grieves anyone?)
New enemy ideas
Jump and dodge buttons
Platforming type levels (Think Zelda or Okami type platforming)
No Broomop or Infamous douchebags to ruin the game.

Allison_W
Sep 17, 2010, 07:59 PM
While we're talking "increased customization options," I support roughly doubling options for each gender by abolishing this strange law every game aside from the Fable series seems to have where crossdressing is so illegal that it has somehow become physically impossible. Admittedly, I am an oddball with a butch girlfriend, so of course I'd say that.

NINJA EDIT: I disagree with the above poster and would like to say that force weapons should not use MST/TP as their driving stat for physical attacks. Said classes aren't really intended to clobber things in melee, and those forces who are hybrid fighter-cum-techer types should be so due to having decent ATP, not just MST/TP. PSZ had like no reason at all for forces to use striking weapons when pressed into melee, and made pure, non-hybrid techers far too good at it.

I'd also like to add that I hated the way PSZ's force weapons gave radical MST bonuses instead of small MST bonuses the way many of PSO's force weapons did: using attack techs became almost entirely pointless for hunters, including newman hunters, when it simply should not have been; PSO's system of providing small MST bonuses and enhancements to particular techs made force weapons useful for forces while still not making techs useless for characters not using force weapons. In the same vein, I hated the massive ATA boosts attached to weapons in PSZ, and think PSO's system where ATA bonuses on weapons increase quite slowly rather than rapidly, such that only a small amount of a character's ATA came from their weapon.

Heartz
Sep 17, 2010, 09:15 PM
Give players a mass variety of customizable options, aesthetically speaking. There is nothing more disheartening than seeing another player's character that looks similar to my own. Not just one-piece outfits that you can only change the colors and details of. Let gear drops include armor as well, and have a few vanity costume pieces, perhaps angel wings or scarves.

I want my character to look like she has been on perilous journeys. The civilian outfits are trite, and it doesn't make me feel good about my character.

Allison_W
Sep 17, 2010, 09:27 PM
Give players a mass variety of customizable options, aesthetically speaking. There is nothing more disheartening than seeing another player's character that looks similar to my own. Not just one-piece outfits that you can only change the colors and details of. Let gear drops include armor as well, and have a few vanity costume pieces, perhaps angel wings or scarves.

I want my character to look like she has been on perilous journeys. The civilian outfits are trite, and it doesn't make me feel good about my character.

I don't necessarily mind civilian garb, per se, but I would like a whole lot more non-cutesy clothing options. More awesome clothes, fewer moe moe clothes that look like their target market is twelve-year-old strippers.

ChronoTrigga
Sep 18, 2010, 12:29 AM
Or they could bring back the old school simplicity of the clothing in Phantasy Star 1-4

Powder Keg
Sep 18, 2010, 01:27 AM
Character's should be customized in a lot more ways, such as the way they walk, run, block and even attack with weapons.

coreyblueexclusive
Sep 18, 2010, 02:16 AM
A Combat Revamp
Unlimited Levels a Rebirth System
The PSO feel,that PSU failed to do
Voice Chat for PC
More customization,more hair and beard options buzz cut ftw?
I would say dont include beast,but the females are fun to look at
The lobbies where fun,but if they can think of something better,so be it.
Also NOTHING PSU RELATED PLEASE THAT'S WHY I'M HESITANT ON BEAST.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2010, 02:22 AM
Agito REPCA??For the ten thousandth time, this is not an error. In fact, the ones that are called "Whatever Replica" are erroneous.

Tetsaru
Sep 18, 2010, 02:30 AM
For the ten thousandth time, this is not an error. In fact, the ones that are called "Whatever Replica" are erroneous.

Then wtf is a repca? =/

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2010, 02:38 AM
A fantasy nonsense word based on the word replica. It's that way in Japanese too.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 18, 2010, 02:40 AM
Character's should be customized in a lot more ways, such as the way they walk, run, block and even attack with weapons.

I agree with characters having customization options for standing and walking. Block and attack with weapons is an extremely mechanical choice. The attack animations of weapons is directly related to gameplay.

I think that this line of thought is short sighted of what the game play in PSO games need. The major problem that I had with the Photon Art system was the way it limited you. I don't mind working with a limited palette. The differences between one character class and another are essential for cooperative team play.

However, I had a problem with having only two attacks per weapon. Real action games have context sensitive input. For example, with a single attack button, you can have a standard combo and a lock-on + directional button set of attacks.

Example: Distance closing forward thrust attacks, side stepping attacks, or holding back for a combo breaker attack (to fill the role of PAs in combos that was established in PSZ and PSPo2). As strafing and lock-on was essential for PSU's growth after PSO, this control scheme will be essential for giving players actual control in battle. Because it lets you choose the right move for the situation on the fly. Instead of asking you to switch weapons, which breaks the fluidity of your offensive motion.

Context sensitive attacks, based on what direction you press while attacking a locked-on enemy opens the door for a dramatic change in how techs could be implemented. Can you imagine shaping a technique's attack form in this way? You could have like... all your foie techs accessible at once. Maybe introduce more motion into the technique casting stance.

I'd also like to see two handed Ranger weapons controlled via 3rd person shooter controls. This would rock completely.

If they added a jump command, more contextual attacks could be available. Jump attacks, etc. Jump dodge? Who knows, but that's a BIG if.

Tetsaru
Sep 18, 2010, 02:50 AM
A fantasy nonsense word based on the word replica.

Wow, that's... stupid, no offense. =/ I mean, if it was a reference to something more well-known, then yeah, I could roll with it, but... sorry. :confused:


It's that way in Japanese too.

Wait, is the word "replica," which has its origins in Italian and Latin, actually romanized into "repca" in Japanese, or does that just mean Sonic Team can't even translate into their own native language?

Maybe they'll start calling rifles "rofl's." :wacko:

*EDIT to avoid double post*


However, I had a problem with having only two attacks per weapon. Real action games have context sensitive input. For example, with a single attack button, you can have a standard combo and a lock-on + directional button set of attacks.

Example: Distance closing forward thrust attacks, side stepping attacks, or holding back for a combo breaker attack (to fill the role of PAs in combos that was established in PSZ and PSPo2). As strafing and lock-on was essential for PSU's growth after PSO, this control scheme will be essential for giving players actual control in battle. Because it lets you choose the right move for the situation on the fly. Instead of asking you to switch weapons, which breaks the fluidity of your offensive motion.

Context sensitive attacks, based on what direction you press while attacking a locked-on enemy opens the door for a dramatic change in how techs could be implemented. Can you imagine shaping a technique's attack form in this way? You could have like... all your foie techs accessible at once. Maybe introduce more motion into the technique casting stance.

I'd also like to see two handed Ranger weapons controlled via 3rd person shooter controls. This would rock completely.

If they added a jump command, more contextual attacks could be available. Jump attacks, etc. Jump dodge? Who knows, but that's a BIG if.

I would LOVE to see something like this. Something along the lines of God of War: you had your quick attack and your strong attack, but you also had spin attacks, grapple moves, parries, aerial moves, etc., all at your disposal with simple one or two-button combinations, or combo button presses. Not only would it make combat more three-dimensional, but it would allow for a more streamlined use of PA's. Image being able to use Rising Crush, Assault Crush, Splendor Crush, AND Cross Hurricane all on the same weapon, without having to unequip/re-equip each art. That'd be fucking sweet, imo. :D

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2010, 02:55 AM
Maybe they'll start calling rifles "rofl's." :wacko:Too late, they already made Vullseye.

Anyway, they are supposed to Repca, and not Replica. It's the same in Japanese (レプカ 「REPUKA」 instead of レプリカ 「REPURIKA」). Why? No idea, but that's the way it is.

Tetsaru
Sep 18, 2010, 03:01 AM
Too late, they already made Vullseye.

/facepalm.jpg


Anyway, they are supposed to Repca, and not Replica. It's the same in Japanese (レプカ 「REPUKA」 instead of レプリカ 「REPURIKA」). Why? No idea, but that's the way it is.

I'll never understand moon-runes. :confused:

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 18, 2010, 03:08 AM
Okay so, PSU had a lot of nutty Engrish stuff. Did you guys ever read those signs on the walls that were in the various Gurhalian fonts? They were crazy. Stuff like "safely first" n' stuff. PSU had an unseemly amount of translation errors.

Instead of arguing about that teeny tiny gripe and mucking up this conversation, why not talk about things that are more significant? So no more insignificant cosmetic details, which I honestly thought were kinda charming, and we can talk about concrete game aesthetics and mechanics.

Allison_W
Sep 18, 2010, 04:49 AM
I mentioned in the other thread that music changing between combat and noncombat segments needs to return. I'd just like to say it over here, too.

Also, I'm going to second Eidolus's call in the other thread for better variation in environmental topography and geometry and not just the wallpaper, and add that I'd also like to see more variation in enemy behaviour, like the Sinow Zoas hiding in gaps in the ceiling to drop down and ambush you. Not everything should spawn in front of me in orderly fashion, and all that.

On the whole, aesthetics should be pulled from PSO more than PSU, even if a lot of mechanics will probably be pulled from PSP2/PSP2I. Especially the music. PSO had fantastic music.

Oh, and to talk mechanics: fisticuffs. I want to punch things. And I don't want to only be able to do it while wearing fancy-schmancy weaponized gloves, and I don't want to miss all the time because half my ATA comes from weapons instead of just like 30ish points of it.

voxie
Sep 18, 2010, 05:55 AM
Really? Because I still think the music in PSO is outstanding and most of the music in PSU was -- at best -- non-intrusive, and a lot of it I thought was just plain bad, with some notable exceptions of course.

I believe you, but boy does the music in PSO move me a million times more than the PSU/PSP music.

Yes, PSO's soundtrack craps all over PSU's.

Plus, in PSO the music changed according to your situation on the field. PSU's just felt really monotonous, and sent me to sleep most of the time.. or maybe it was the game itself. Both!

Raven5_1
Sep 18, 2010, 07:38 AM
If you have to have a Ruins level make the Ruins look like an actual Ruin. none of that clean intact PSU Ruins malarky

SephirothXer0
Sep 18, 2010, 07:53 AM
I'd like a slower, more intense pace to the game.

In PSU, there's the same fast-paced music all the time, enemies are spawning left and right, and hitting the attack buttons is almost nonstop.

In PSO, the music was quiet and ambient... then turned ominous as something spawned. And when something spawned, many times it was in a place you couldn't see. There was tension as you entered a new area and had no idea if you were going to be ambushed. Some of the dark rooms were actually scary to go into at higher levels.

I want that menacing, mysterious atmosphere again that only PSO has captured.

HyperShot-X-
Sep 18, 2010, 10:41 AM
New revamped combat system that takes the best of both PSO and PSU combined and expanded upon to add more depth and strategy to battle, fully experimented in all kinds of possible variety and tested to perfection. I don't expect them to make this right with less than 2 years of development period and rushed job.

I'd like to see actual blocking action implemented to combat that makes use of one hand and shields as a type of weapon category that can be equipped on pallet. This would add more depth to game play and a step above from the button mashing Just Counter system used in PSU AOTI that's never under full control of player.

To emphasize more on co-op battle tactics, one possible improvement to game mechanics would be to have real world physics applied to everything in the game whether it be another human player or objects in level design, this would mean that you can damage or get damaged from another human player and friendly fires as well, you cannot occupy the same space with another teammate, no more shooting thru walls, using environmental objects to your advantage in combat, etc. This would add so much depth and strategy to co-op battle and would introduce number of interesting possibilities such as defensive melee fighter with shields providing cover for spell casters and gunners, tactical formation of team members in various stances(attack, defense, free roaming, etc.), armor units that nullifies or reduces friendly attack damages, etc. Each type of class have their own specific role to play in co-op battle whether it be melee fighter, gunner, or spell caster with their own set of special moves such as evasive roll, forward boosts, combination attack spell casting(from PS IV).

I expected them to be well under development phase for a while now past the finalized basic concept stage if the game was to be release in 2011. Instead, all they have shown so far is which platform it'd be on and a bunch of basic concept highlights that sounds pretty confusing at best.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2010, 12:31 PM
friendly fireSorry, but this is an unbelievably terrible idea.

Zyrusticae
Sep 18, 2010, 12:48 PM
Lol friendly fire...


Anyways, really, besides the obvious customization stuff, my #1 wish is for the combat to take several pages out of the God of War book of action combat. Dodge rolls, jumping, grapples, the whole shebang.

It doesn't have to be as in-depth or as polished as God of War - and I wouldn't expect it to be, obviously, because they have a whole crapton more weapons and fighting styles to worry about. But at the very least we shouldn't be limited to a single attack chain all the friggin' time.

And I want to be able to jump.

And levels that require us to make use of platforming. I mean... it's Sega. The guys that make Sonic games. Why the hell not? Hell, you could even take pages out of the God of War book of intermittent puzzle sections. Haha... TBH, I wouldn't mind playing a God of War clone set in the PSO universe at all, but that's just me.

But the gist of it is simply variety. Real variety in the gameplay, not fake statistical BS that has no real bearing on our enjoyment of the actual play experience.

Razan
Sep 18, 2010, 01:06 PM
Got another one... I want photon blast combinations to work properly this time. You get all the players to do it together and something special needs to happen. Of course this requires mags. I'll be pissed if there's no mags. :)

HyperShot-X-
Sep 18, 2010, 01:47 PM
Sorry, but this is an unbelievably terrible idea.
you got a better idea of something that's not been done already before and are creative and innovative? not just everyone running around on their own in battle with no sense of co-op action with enemies moving around in mindlessly random pattern, a full party speed running thru the whole mission in less than 5 mins and boss battle lasting no longer than 1 min, everyone just racing forward to kill, kill, kill, and repeat it over and over. We've been there already and what you call an 'unbelievably terrible idea' could be better than the same old boring stuff that makes you fall asleep in action. I'm sorry, but no more.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2010, 02:11 PM
How about they just make the AI competent?

Put in friendly fire and melee is immediately worthless.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 18, 2010, 02:50 PM
But the gist of it is simply variety. Real variety in the gameplay, not fake statistical BS that has no real bearing on our enjoyment of the actual play experience.

I have been trying to say this for a long time. I don't mind some amount of character raising, but I feel like the levels and weapon tiers introduce a kind of separation of players, and distract from the quality of the game play itself. Plus why not have a few really well thought out weapons with interesting abilities, than 1000+ that... like some have status effects? I guess? Lame. Games can physically emulate reality... so why all this nonsense RPG stuff from non-computer-game type games?


you got a better idea of something that's not been done already before and are creative and innovative? not just everyone running around on their own in battle with no sense of co-op action with enemies moving around in mindlessly random pattern, a full party speed running thru the whole mission in less than 5 mins and boss battle lasting no longer than 1 min, everyone just racing forward to kill, kill, kill, and repeat it over and over. We've been there already and what you call an 'unbelievably terrible idea' could be better than the same old boring stuff that makes you fall asleep in action. I'm sorry, but no more.

I support this. There's something wrong. I don't think friendly fire is necessarily the answer, but I would like to point out that between PSO and PSU, battle became less measured and more PA spammy. However, that has changed in PSPo2. You can get your ass kicked for not playing well and PA spamming too much, thanks to the chain system.

On the topic of friendly fire, does anyone here have experience playing Streets of Rage 2 or 3? That game had friendly fire. Of course, damage between players was SIGNIFICANTLY reduced, so a stray punch didn't do more than nudge your health bar. But what was great about the games was that players could physically interact with each other. If you grabbed one another, you could actually throw one of you over head and do a special jumping attack.

When it comes to action games, the faster the game is paced, the harder you lean toward "twitch brawlers" like Devil May Cry 3, Ninja Gaiden, or the God of War series. The action in those games is about controlling the enemy. Offense is used to stop or prevent attacks, defense and evasion for tactical manipulation. Enemies in these types of games need to have unique attacks, as well as their own defensive and evasive move set. It creates a real time action puzzle. Like chess. If these two enemy types are present, the player needs to rethink their tactics. PSO's battle controls were slow, making it easy to measure out interesting enemy movements that were more agile than the player. PSU gave the player more control over their character, and at the same time created really lack-luster enemy movement and attack patterns. This made the final stop on the strategy express, "who had more power?" Which brings it back around to RPG leveling mechanics. Making the dominate strategy in PSU to spam PAs and grind on enemies who will die from PA spamming.

I would like to see PSO2 return to having well measured and varied combat of PSO. Slowing it down will just feel sluggish, I'd rather have more player control. Meaning, more than a regular combo and special combo for each weapon and enemies that could possibly out maneuver me. Whatever happened those Gee from PSO? Or those Gibbon that danced around you? Or Sinows that were like professional assassins? Most monsters in PSU were just punching bags.

Palle
Sep 18, 2010, 04:18 PM
I've probably mentioned these 'wants' before:


Global Network & Word Select
Supervision by Rieko Kodama
Soundtrack by Tokuhiko Uwabo
Return to Ragolian/Coralian design aesthetic

...guess I will save the 'do not want' list for a separate thread.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 18, 2010, 05:08 PM
I've probably mentioned these 'wants' before:


Global Network & Word Select
Supervision by Rieko Kodama
Soundtrack by Tokuhiko Uwabo
Return to Ragolian/Coralian design aesthetic

...guess I will save the 'do not want' list for a separate thread.

I disagree with those artists having anything to do with PSO2. They were not responsible for the excellent art direction and sound track of PSO. The music of PSO was done by Fumie Kumatani and Hideaki Kobayashi. Who also produced the majority of the decent tracks in PSU as well.

It's fun to look at the tracks in the PSU ost and see who they were credited to, because all the songs that sound out of place in a PSO sequel are done by people who are not Kumatani or Kobayashi.

By the way if anyone here wants someone to blame for the painful Hives music. Kenichi Tokoi is your man. He did some atrocious stuff, but he also did the Moatoob lobby music and the Madness the Machine Sparx boss music. So he's... sort of redeemed.

I've mostly been talking about how great PSO was. But PSU made some steps forward that need to be acknowledged. They pushed for more musical variety and brought on more musicians. Unfortunately, most of the music they produced was pumped up and violent tunes that got really really aggravating to listen to for the 30 minutes to an hour that it took to clear an area. Hives was my personal grudge, I'd rather listen to nothing than that garbage.

But I'd like to point out that it really was a matter of a lack of variable pacing. If you ever played PSO on gamecube with split-screen multiplayer, you may have noticed that the aggression track played constantly. I remember noticing back then how on edge it made me while playing, and those aggression tracks weren't as high pressure as PSU's tracks.

PSO is it's own series with a gameplay and artstyle distinct from the old games(which were actually vary generic). It wouldn't do it any good to have intervention from some dated creators who's last work was back in the 16-bit chip-tune era.

Too many cooks in the kitchen will ruin the meal.

HyperShot-X-
Sep 18, 2010, 05:09 PM
How about they just make the AI competent?that's already given on that teaser highlight "Improved enemy AI / cooperation".. what I'm talking about is more than just recreating old PSO enemy A.I. design.



Put in friendly fire and melee is immediately worthless.it'd be worthless to dumb melee fighters who engage enemies straight ahead when a friendly gunner is right behind them instead of attacking from sides to let the gunner get a clear shot at enemy targets, or for dumb gunners who cannot position themselves in the right angle to avoid shooting their own fighter. Auto targeting system for shotguns as in PSO could also help to avoid friendly fire as well.

The only way to know for certain whether something will work or not is thru extensive experiments and testing it to perfection, that's why it takes long time to develop something new and better than the same old and I can't help but doubt they would come up with a ground breaking renovation in such short development period.

Kanju
Sep 18, 2010, 05:23 PM
friendly fire

I can see it being horribly abused.

Heartz
Sep 18, 2010, 05:34 PM
that's already given on that teaser highlight "Improved enemy AI / cooperation".. what I'm talking about is more than just recreating old PSO enemy A.I. design.

it'd be worthless to dumb melee fighters who engage enemies straight ahead when a friendly gunner is right behind them instead of attacking from sides to let the gunner get a clear shot at enemy targets, or for dumb gunners who cannot position themselves in the right angle to avoid shooting their own fighter. Auto targeting system for shotguns as in PSO could also help to avoid friendly fire as well.

The only way to know for certain whether something will work or not is thru extensive experiments and testing it to perfection, that's why it takes long time to develop something new and better than the same old and I can't help but doubt they would come up with a ground breaking renovation in such short development period.

With all due respect, the last thing I need to worry about is a teammate I cannot trust that has gone trigger happy or blade happy. This is something that is for first-person shooters like Call of Duty. Having to be too careful ruins the fun for many people. It just does not work in a hack and slash online game.

Galax
Sep 18, 2010, 05:44 PM
that's already given on that teaser highlight "Improved enemy AI / cooperation".. what I'm talking about is more than just recreating old PSO enemy A.I. design.

PSO enemies may have had shitty A.I., but did you know a normal mode Booma in multimode on BB had around 90HP? They actually have that HP to get a chance to survive. Sure, that's not much of an issue for a FO, just hit em with three times with foie and they die. But a HU gets up close and personal, as we all know, so they actually had a harder time than FOs/RAs, imo...Damn, losing track again....Anyway, I agree that the enemy A.I. should be more than...

Enemy: *Hits you a couple times, circles around and waits for his buddies to join in*
You: *Gets up and murderalizes the enemy*

Rinse, Repeat.

After you established your character, that's pretty much what it was, sadly. Also, I'm pretty sure the "hacks, nol'ing" etc were a ref to the amount of BS that happened on PSO. Example: You just beat Falz on Ult and found some stuff along the way. You load in the lobby, and someone FSODs you, and you lose your stuff.

And it happened over and over, at least on Xbox/GC. (don't know about DC, never played PSO on DC...)

And I want a return of battle mode, not some shitty mission (see: Explosive Arena)...Have you ever tried a run of forest on ult in battlemode? It actually spices up the game, because you have to be careful to not autotarget someone with your Grants and kill them (FO) or end up using jellen/zalure and catching your teammate in it. Hell, I did that on PSOXbox, I ended up getting taking a bullet from a teammate with his Yasminkov 2000H, and I died. I had a scape, luckily..But yeah, without continuing my stories, I can see how "friendly fire" could be incorporated into the game WITHOUT ruining it. I also hope, if they DO bring back BA mode, that they also bring back rule battles. (Trap Hell <3)

HyperShot-X-
Sep 18, 2010, 06:06 PM
I can see it being horribly abused.
there are number of ways to deal with that like penalizing on mission rewards, in PSO c-mode the penalty for letting one of your teammate die without any scape doll was mission failure for the entire team.

Wasn't Left4Dead series one of more successful co-op action with friendly fire in game? Isn't it about time for PSO2 to evolve out of just another mindless hack and slash dungeon crawler to more co-op action oriented online rpg with strategy and battle tactics in real time after 10 years of progress?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 18, 2010, 06:15 PM
it'd be worthless to dumb melee fighters who engage enemies straight ahead when a friendly gunner is right behind them instead of attacking from sides to let the gunner get a clear shot at enemy targets, or for dumb gunners who cannot position themselves in the right angle to avoid shooting their own fighter. Auto targeting system for shotguns as in PSO could also help to avoid friendly fire as well.Have you played PSU? Players and enemies are flying all over the place constantly. It would be impossible to not get shot and nuked constantly for melee.

Allison_W
Sep 18, 2010, 08:26 PM
Gotta go on the record saying I oppose friendly fire. Why? Because it will attract trolls, who will use it to troll, and no one wants to get trolled by "friendly fire" abuse. Or in any other fashion really.

Seth Astra
Sep 18, 2010, 09:10 PM
Friendly fire wouldn't work with just about any tech or melee PA. Basically, only guns and straightforward Techs (e.g. the basic foie spell) would be worth using. Basically, it'd make hunter into an absolutely worthless class, since more than one in a team, and melee PAs are worthless. This assuming the existance of PAs. Even without PAs, melee would be pretty annoying in a team.

Tetsaru
Sep 18, 2010, 10:43 PM
Friendly fire? In an action-RPG?? Are you NUTS!?


How about they just make the AI competent?

Put in friendly fire and melee is immediately worthless.


I can see it being horribly abused.


With all due respect, the last thing I need to worry about is a teammate I cannot trust that has gone trigger happy or blade happy. This is something that is for first-person shooters like Call of Duty. Having to be too careful ruins the fun for many people. It just does not work in a hack and slash online game.


Gotta go on the record saying I oppose friendly fire. Why? Because it will attract trolls, who will use it to troll, and no one wants to get trolled by "friendly fire" abuse. Or in any other fashion really.


Have you played PSU? Players and enemies are flying all over the place constantly. It would be impossible to not get shot and nuked constantly for melee.


Friendly fire wouldn't work with just about any tech or melee PA. Basically, only guns and straightforward Techs (e.g. the basic foie spell) would be worth using. Basically, it'd make hunter into an absolutely worthless class, since more than one in a team, and melee PAs are worthless. This assuming the existance of PAs. Even without PAs, melee would be pretty annoying in a team.

I'll have to agree with all of these comments.

The only way I could see friendly fire working in PSO2 is if it was implemented as a negative Confusion-style status effect, similar to how it works against enemies instead of making your character move in random directions. In some of the older Final Fantasy games, if one of your party members became confused, you couldn't control them, and they would randomly attack enemies and/or party members. One way to remove the confusion status (or sleep) was to have another party member attack them, but this often caused them to lose a good chunk of their health or get KO'd instantly if you had to use one of your stronger characters, rather than just using an item or casting a spell to cure it.

There were also some magic user type weapons that could heal the target you attacked, so you could cure an ally without having to use MP, but again, there were usually just better options available. Also, keep in mind that, in these games, your party members weren't constantly running around like you would in a game like PSO or PSU, so it'd be awkward to run around trying to bonk your friend in the face, especially if you were in a large room fighting off a bunch of enemies and it'd be easy to get separated. I could possibly see some new Force/techer support options using this sort of gameplay, but really, it'd be MUCH easier to just implement a good enough targeting system, which for the most part, PSO and PSU already have.

Another interesting design option would be to do something Castle Crashers did: you play through a level normally with your teammates, then when you defeat the boss and get to the princess you had to save, everyone suddenly faces off against each other in a fight to last man standing, to see who earns her kiss. I could see this being used as a possible means of determining who gets certain drops after killing a boss, but at the same time, I remember how one-sided PSO's PvP matches could get, so there would need to be some serious balancing. Also, making separate drops show up for each player (like in PSZ) instead of everyone being able to pick up the same items (PSO or PSU) would just be easier, and would much more easily solve quarrels over who needed which items... either that, or implement something similar to FF11's lot system, where if an item dropped, no one would get it immediately until a set amount of time passed, where players who didn't want the item could simply opt out of it, and the players who did could "lot" for the item, and receive a randomly generated number. Whoever had the highest number out of the players who lotted for the item would then receive that item. Some guilds/clans also developed their own "points system" to give priority towards players who helped the guild out more, and would let them lot by themselves on a rare item they wanted, similar to "calling rares" in PSU.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 18, 2010, 11:46 PM
I think we can drop the friendly fire business. I like some of Tetsaru's points, showing howother games have shown how player vs player damage infliction can be used. But given the player abilities of PSO characters, friendly fire is impossible to have without A LOT of friendly fire. Shaping PSO2 around a limitation like that might not be the best possible route.

I more preeminent question that we need to address is something necessary to an online cooperative game like PSO.

"In what new ways could players interact with one another?"

In the past, we've seen buff techs and healing techs. Items that cure status effects of a team mate. Photon Blast Combos were awesome in PSO. We could also open side areas by cooperatively standing on switches, but this was sorta lame.

PSZ and PhSP2 introduced the combo system. Where by doing normal attacks against a specific enemy as a team allowed you to rack up a combo score that increased the damage of the combo finisher.

What else could we do with one another to create a better cooperative experience, involving some form of interaction.

My suggestion, elaborate on the enemy stun status. Not the paralysis status effect. But the state the enemy is in when a player is attacking them. PSU introduced a very valuable ability to manipulate enemies by knocking them away, on the ground, and in the air. I think it could be interesting if it was possible to "air" an enemy for a prolonged amount of time. Possibly boosting the combo score higher than it would otherwise go. I'm not sure if this is even a good idea.

This would be easier to come up with if there was more things to do than just attack and heal. I hope that PSO2 takes some time to elaborate on different types of mobility. Mobility abilities. Different types of evasion moves. Maybe... jumping? I'd be rad if Rangers could move in such a way as to give them a better advantage on an enemy, perched on a wall. Maybe so they could hit the enemy's vulnerable spot? For massive damage? Rangers need more elaboration.

If we could move in different ways with different mobility abilities, we could do things for one another. Maybe techniques could be used to manipulate things from a far, instead of just nuking and healing. Techs could raise temporary platforms, create barriers, or other things to manipulate enemies.

What are your ideas?

Heartz
Sep 19, 2010, 12:49 AM
That brings up an idea for air combos. Personally, I think they would rock in a Phantasy Star game. That would also call for the ability to jump.

Justyn_Darkcrest
Sep 19, 2010, 03:48 AM
Stuff I'd love to see:
*Section IDs (as many have stated) I don't care if it's random or if you can choose, bottom line is it'd be cool if they made it random or based on formula but ppl will probably just reset till they get what they want anyway.

*Mag are a must or somthing to replace them that grants the same level of char customization.

*More weapons available/more weapon types. One of the few things that PSU did very well was adding a lot of new wep types (Bow was my fav ^.-)

*Once you pick your class you stick with it. While I loved the ability to change jobs in PSU I really missed the aspect that once you choose a class that's what you excel at.

*Adding to the class thng:Having the ability to upgrade your class: I.E: add wep/armor, skills ect. I'd also love to see weapon lvling instead of PA grinding, maybe have high lvl PAs that you buy and can only use once you've gained a higher lvl on the wep type instead of having to lvl 30-50 PAs. (granted this wont work for force so a diffrent system would have to be in effect for that..)

*Which brings me to my next point: NO MORE ATTACHING TECHS TO WEAPONS!!!!! I can't stress this one enough. One of the greatest things about the force class in PSO was the ability to use a saber/slicer/gun (w.e.) and still use techs.

*Port it to consoles. This one is mainly for selfish reasons, I dont have the money to go and buy a new PC so I'd absolutly love to see this game come to either Wii or 360 if it comes to consoles at all. (I'd prefer all of them PS3 as well since that will mean a much larger community)

*While I know this is'nt possible I'd like to see no hacking of any sort. I know it will happen to some degree, but so long as Sega keeps a close eye on it and responds quickly to stop it I'll be happy.

Everything else I'm sure has been mentioned by others so I'll stop the txtwall now ^.-b

ChronoTrigga
Sep 19, 2010, 05:20 AM
A fantasy nonsense word based on the word replica. It's that way in Japanese too.

This, it's like how Caprica uses the word frack to replace fuck and they get away with it.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 19, 2010, 11:33 AM
Stuff I'd love to see:
*Section IDs (as many have stated) I don't care if it's random or if you can choose, bottom line is it'd be cool if they made it random or based on formula but ppl will probably just reset till they get what they want anyway.

*Mag are a must or somthing to replace them that grants the same level of char customization.

*More weapons available/more weapon types. One of the few things that PSU did very well was adding a lot of new wep types (Bow was my fav ^.-)

*Once you pick your class you stick with it. While I loved the ability to change jobs in PSU I really missed the aspect that once you choose a class that's what you excel at.

*Adding to the class thng:Having the ability to upgrade your class: I.E: add wep/armor, skills ect. I'd also love to see weapon lvling instead of PA grinding, maybe have high lvl PAs that you buy and can only use once you've gained a higher lvl on the wep type instead of having to lvl 30-50 PAs. (granted this wont work for force so a diffrent system would have to be in effect for that..)

*Which brings me to my next point: NO MORE ATTACHING TECHS TO WEAPONS!!!!! I can't stress this one enough. One of the greatest things about the force class in PSO was the ability to use a saber/slicer/gun (w.e.) and still use techs.

*Port it to consoles. This one is mainly for selfish reasons, I dont have the money to go and buy a new PC so I'd absolutly love to see this game come to either Wii or 360 if it comes to consoles at all. (I'd prefer all of them PS3 as well since that will mean a much larger community)

*While I know this is'nt possible I'd like to see no hacking of any sort. I know it will happen to some degree, but so long as Sega keeps a close eye on it and responds quickly to stop it I'll be happy.

Everything else I'm sure has been mentioned by others so I'll stop the txtwall now ^.-b

Wow, another person behind on the times. Let's just go over your list and explain why these improvements have already been accomplished.

*Now that Drops are local to each player, so no one can steal your rares, section Id's have been replaced with weapon drops tailored to your current class (HU, RA, FO, BV). This was established in PSP2.

*Now you can customize which weapon types you excel at, and use type abilities to grant you much more interesting advantages than the choice of boosting 4 different stats. Every race in PhSP2 also has a photon blast equivalent. The functions Mags offered in the past have been redistributed and given greater customization options.

*PhSP2 added even more weapon types. However I would point out, we ought to be asking for less weapons and more abilities per weapon at once. More combat control per weapon. Having a bunch of weapon types, with very limited uses makes playing with those weapons not very fun. There should be weapon distinction, so each weapon behaves differently, but offers more.

*How is this any different than having multiple characters in PSO? You could switch classes then by just changing characters. I'm not sure which is better though. An alternate character would save their inventory, but when you switch classes in PhSP2, you have to go get your gear for that class. Either way, trying to enforce permanence is just abusive and makes it harder for players to form balanced parties.

*PhSP2 made Photon Arts drop dependent, so you find your PA levels. Like in PSO. You can also choose which weapon types you excel at, allowing you to equip higher powered weapons in some categories, and lower in others.

*PhSP2 still attaches techs to weapons. Unfortunately. However, the universal PP bar has returned. So all weapons share one PP bar. I think that the PA system and technique system as it stands is lacking. See my post on the top of this page for my suggestions on weapons: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181653&page=7

*Porting to consoles is suicide. See Allison_W's post on this page: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181616&page=34

*Sega was pretty awesome about stopping hacking during the life span of PSU. I think they'll do fine.

Seth Astra
Sep 19, 2010, 02:12 PM
I've got quite a few ideas... Gonna have to get back to work on that file later, then post some of the stuff.

Tetsaru
Sep 19, 2010, 05:02 PM
*Once you pick your class you stick with it. While I loved the ability to change jobs in PSU I really missed the aspect that once you choose a class that's what you excel at.

Nowadays, it isn't player-friendly (especially towards newer ones who are unfamiliar with the game) to permanently force them into a single class. I know PSO did it, and even PSZ did it, but I'd have to say being able to switch classes was one of the good things about PSU. If you didn't like the class you were playing, or simply wanted a change of pace, you could simply switch classes instead of having to make a new character, which some P2P MMORPG's charge you extra for.

Perhaps PSO2 could allow for some multi-classing of some sort, similar to PSU's hybrid classes, but better balanced. If you look at FF14, they encourage playing multiple classes, not only because of the fatigue system which limits your exp growth towards a specific class over a certain period of time, but because of the armory system as well, which allows you to use abilities from other classes you've leveled up. PSO seemed to have already streamlined this idea a bit (for example, a HUmar being best at melee weapons, but can also use handguns and techs to a lesser degree), but perhaps to the point where some classes were more "broken" than others (I recall HUcasts, RAmarls, and FOmars being somewhat OP at high levels). I like the idea of characters playing certain roles in combat, and I also like the idea of versatility, but at the same time, it's very important that they're not too over- or underpowered in this aspect and make either other classes or their own class less useful - a big problem that persisted in PSU.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
Here's how I imagine them making classes work, as to appease both the sensible people who want to be able to change classes on the fly, and the fanatics who will not buy the game unless it has HUmars and FOnewearls:


3 basic classes: hunter, ranger, and force. Ideally, add in one more that is a hybrid. Go ahead and call it Braver or whatever.
Classes are called HUmar, HUmarl, HUnewm, HUcast, RAmar, FOmar, BRAmar, etc. based on the race you are. However, there is very little or no stat difference between the races, making race just an aesthetic thing. Different attack animations are a good idea, as long as one race doesn't have an animation that is better (faster/more hits) than another race.
Allow for switching classes at any time, as it was in PSU.
Have an extremely deep system for customizing your classes. Kind of like GAS, but with many more options, so if you want to make a FOnewearl that only uses support techs and melee, or a HUcast that specializes in attack techs, then you can.


Of course, this is the ideal situation. I'm sure their solution will be far less balanced.

Justyn_Darkcrest
Sep 19, 2010, 06:09 PM
To all the ppl who decided to spend their time picking apart my post just to tell me how wrong I am, Last time I checked the title of this thread is "What would you like to see in PSO2".

I was simply stating all the things I would like to see whether or not it has been done is beside the point.

In the future please stay on topic and if you really feel you have to attack me for posting ON TOPIC just PM me.

Allison_W
Sep 19, 2010, 06:11 PM
I can't see HUmars and FOnewearls not being in the game. Both humans and newmans are practically shoe-ins and both hunters and forces are practically shoe-ins, so.

As for changing classes being an alternative to making new characters and extra character slots often costing money in microtransaction-supported games, I think someone just stumbled upon a reason classes actually might be permanently set at creation. Don't let Sega hear it.

Also, to those of you talking about bravers/BRA/BV, the localization is Vanguard/VA. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Sep 19, 2010, 06:12 PM
VAcast Doesnt Sound That Bad...

Allison_W
Sep 19, 2010, 06:40 PM
However, there is very little or no stat difference between the races, making race just an aesthetic thing. Different attack animations are a good idea, as long as one race doesn't have an animation that is better (faster/more hits) than another race.

I should have addressed this in my last post, but let me go on the record saying that differences between races don't bother me; there's a point to races being different. What does bother me is mechanical differences between genders, which is simply not in accordance with modern design standards. Suffice it to say it's one of those areas in which escapism is more important than realism (and very half-assed "realism" at that, considering the way gender differences jump around wildly from one online PS game to the next).

Then again, I hear it's the original creator of the Phantasy Star franchise who demands gender-differentiated stats, so I don't know how likely getting rid of them would be.

Overlord Zenon
Sep 19, 2010, 06:40 PM
ON consoles with the 4 player split screen again.... oh and why cant it be free to play online?

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 19, 2010, 06:46 PM
Actually Fuzzy, from what I understand about PhSP2 and PhSP2i, they have a much more balanced system than what you're proposing. They allow you, as whatever to class, to give yourself grades in whatever weapon class you want. Depending on your class some weapon types are more expensive. But it allows you, as a Hunter to take grade in force or ranger weapons to create hybrids classes.

The game has 4 basic classes. Hunter, Force, Ranger, and Vanguard. From there, you can pick your preferred weapon types. As you level up in a class, you have more extends points to spend and rearrange with whatever weapon type you want. The GAS system has been replaced... or merely renamed. As the Type Abilities.

Also be aware, PhSP2i will introduce a new race called Dumans. Humans altered genetically by the D-sub life form. Or whatever their explanation is. It's something like that.

Here's a chart my friend made to explain the extend system a link to the type abilities page on the psp2 section on psupedia.

http://blog-imgs-42.fc2.com/s/p/a/sparklingzone/extend_points.html

http://psp2.psupedia.info/Type_abilities

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2010, 06:50 PM
Actually Fuzzy, from what I understand about PhSP2 and PhSP2i, they have a much more balanced system than what you're proposing. They allow you, as whatever to class, to give yourself grades in whatever weapon class you want. Depending on your class some weapon types are more expensive. But it allows you, as a Hunter to take grade in force or ranger weapons to create hybrids classes.

The game has 4 basic classes. Hunter, Force, Ranger, and Vanguard. From there, you can pick your preferred weapon types. As you level up in a class, you have more extends points to spend and rearrange with whatever weapon type you want. The GAS system has been replaced... or merely renamed. As the Type Abilities.I know all of this. In fact, this is exactly what I described. I would like to see this sort of system, but as deep and extensive as possible.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 19, 2010, 07:09 PM
I should have addressed this in my last post, but let me go on the record saying that differences between races don't bother me; there's a point to races being different. What does bother me is mechanical differences between genders, which is simply not in accordance with modern design standards. Suffice it to say it's one of those areas in which escapism is more important than realism (and very half-assed "realism" at that, considering the way gender differences jump around wildly from one online PS game to the next).

Then again, I hear it's the original creator of the Phantasy Star franchise who demands gender-differentiated stats, so I don't know how likely getting rid of them would be.

Actually, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but sexual dimorphism is more of a reality than "racial differences." Albeit Phantasy Star's races are genetically altered to have certain super natural traits or are out right inhuman. Beasts, Newmans, and Casts respectively. So it's hard to criticize Phantasy Star for being racist, when we're actually just talking about the effect miracles of science have on society.

But in real life, there are physiological differences between the genders. Exactly how much these physiological differences effect a boy or girl in comparison is debatable, but where nature ends, nurture begins. So you may say that some of the innate differences in the genders of player character's stats and animations is more evident of cultural traditions that predispose people of different genders towards different behaviors.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2010, 07:12 PM
Who cares? We're talking video game balance here, not science.

Allison_W
Sep 19, 2010, 08:15 PM
Actually, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but sexual dimorphism is more of a reality than "racial differences." Albeit Phantasy Star's races are genetically altered to have certain super natural traits or are out right inhuman. Beasts, Newmans, and Casts respectively. So it's hard to criticize Phantasy Star for being racist, when we're actually just talking about the effect miracles of science have on society.

But in real life, there are physiological differences between the genders. Exactly how much these physiological differences effect a boy or girl in comparison is debatable, but where nature ends, nurture begins. So you may say that some of the innate differences in the genders of player character's stats and animations is more evident of cultural traditions that predispose people of different genders towards different behaviors.

We're not talking about "race" in the real-world sense here, Eidolus. Race in fantasy and sci-fi is entirely different, and generally refers to different species or at least full-blown subspecies as opposed to the minor differences in regional gene pools we have in the real world. In this case, we are talking different species/subspecies, so the real-world sense of the word "race" doesn't really apply.

And yes, I know human sexual dimorphism is real, at least to some extent, but I did mention that this is a case where escapism > realism, and that sex differences as implemented by the online PS games don't really fit the "realism" argument that well in that the sex differences keep jumping around from title to title--in one game, sex differences are unpredictable (i.e., PSO FOmarls have more hit points than PSO FOmars); in one game, females get higher EVP/DFP/ATA; in another game, males get higher EVP/DFP/ATA, etc...

I'd also be careful about invoking the culture argument. Cultural traditions are violable, after all, and there's no guarantee any given individual will have obeyed their culture's rules on how one gender is supposed to behave (in fact, such norm-violating individuals are pretty well-documented in most cultures).

The modern standard in game design is to just not bother implementing mechanical sex differences, and it does work with far fewer problems than the alternative--it is not something worth risking balance concerns over.

Seth Astra
Sep 19, 2010, 11:33 PM
Well, here's the first bit of my designs for how this could work:

[spoiler-box]Phantasy Star Prototype

Races:

Humans
Overview: The most balanced of the three. Not the best at anything, but not the worst at most. However, they have the lowest ATA. Their biggest advantage is the ability to use all three classes, making them more versatile.
Stats:
HP: 2
TP: 2
ATP: 2
DFP: 2
MST: 2
ATA: 3
EVP: 2
Racial Special: Gene-Shift. Because humans have the most stable genetic code, they are capable of using special systems to change their form and enhance their abilities. These are roughly equivalent to the beast nanoblast in PSU.

Newmans
Overview: Frail elf like beings. They have high magic and evasion, but low HP, DFP, and ATP. They cannot be rangers.
Stats:
HP: 3
TP: 1
ATP: 3
DFP: 3
MST: 1
ATA: 2
EVP: 1
Racial Special: Omnitechs. Newmans are capable of channeling all of their mental energy into a single burst, forming the most powerful form of a tech possible. There is one omnitech for each element, plus a support/healing spell.

CASTs
Overview: They are the exact opposite of Newmans. High power, low MST and evasion. As androids, they can’t use techs, but gain traps and automatic trap vision as compensation. Because they have no techs, they cannot be forces.
HP: 1
TP: 3
ATP: 1
DFP: 1
MST: 3
ATA: 1
EVP: 3
Racial Special: SUV weapons. Like in PSU, CASTs can summon super powered weapons that can decimate enemies.[/spoiler-box]


Notes:

"Phantasy Star Prototype" is just a code name I thought up. Hey, I had to title the document something.
The human racial special is just a vague idea, since I couldn't think of anything else. I considered something like PBs, but that'd be edging in on newmans' teritory.
Probably coming next: Classes, and how they'd work. Explaining that'll certainly make the race system make a little more sense.

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Sep 19, 2010, 11:35 PM
Bravo Sethy! Looks Like You Updated Things.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2010, 11:41 PM
Well, here's the first bit of my designs for how this could work:Making races have different stats is a bad idea. Making races unable to access certain classes is an even worse idea.

Seth Astra
Sep 19, 2010, 11:46 PM
Well, the stats thing I can't really say anything too. However, on the topic of race/class limitations, I origionally planned on having RAnewm/newearl, and some sort of trap based class for casts (in place of FO, since casts don't have techs). However this is based on the inclusion of class switching as in PSU. The ability to use all 3 classes, in the end, will be humans' main advantage, since casts will deal more damage as HUs/RAs, and newmans will outdamage them as FOs. Of course, by removing the stat bonuses, you remove this aspect, but with this, there is no reason to keep CASTs or newmans, so those could and probably would get scrapped.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 19, 2010, 11:57 PM
No, listen, just have races be a purely cosmetic choice, and have all of stat differences be determined by the player through customization. If you want pointy ears, play Newman. If you want to look like an ugly box, play CAST. If you don't care, play Human. If you want to look bitchin' rad, play Beast (though I doubt they'll be in PSO2), but only male Beast, because Beast women are filthy.

AlexCraig
Sep 20, 2010, 12:03 AM
Making different just for aesthetics is a crappy idea. It takes away from some things PSO initially had and some qualities that particular races had in the first place (ie. newmans being a more intellectual race, thus having more MST, etc).

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2010, 12:09 AM
I understand your point of view, but from mine, game balance takes precedent over story/canon every time.

Allison_W
Sep 20, 2010, 12:12 AM
[ . . . ] Beast women are filthy.

Beast women are the best.

Kanju
Sep 20, 2010, 12:54 AM
No, listen, just have races be a purely cosmetic choice, and have all of stat differences be determined by the player through customization. If you want pointy ears, play Newman. If you want to look like an ugly box, play CAST. If you don't care, play Human. If you want to look bitchin' rad, play Beast (though I doubt they'll be in PSO2), but only male Beast, because Beast women are filthy.

Hell, why not just ditch the whole "race" thing entirely? Why do we have to classify ourselves as "Humans" and "CASTs" anyway? The option to be a pointy-eared trash can with cat lips would be great indeed.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2010, 12:55 AM
Sure, why not.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 20, 2010, 01:47 AM
I'd also be careful about invoking the culture argument. Cultural traditions are violable, after all, and there's no guarantee any given individual will have obeyed their culture's rules on how one gender is supposed to behave (in fact, such norm-violating individuals are pretty well-documented in most cultures).

The modern standard in game design is to just not bother implementing mechanical sex differences, and it does work with far fewer problems than the alternative--it is not something worth risking balance concerns over.

Yeah, I totally get that. Presumed homogeneous behavior across an entire culture is a massive pitfall. So, putting the gender based stat differences aside...

Where do you weigh in on the animation differences between genders? I was thinking that maybe it would be better if there was only different types of walk animations and standing stances, that could be chosen on the fly like lobby actions. Like switching to the cool-guy-bad-ass strut and stance, or the limping walk and injured stance. Or... the childish skipping run with ... some kind of lazy stance. More customization for the fundamental movement and posture of our characters that's seen mostly during the down time between missions would be an nice touch.

I think attack animation differences could be split between the class types, instead of genders. Only instead of making 4 different animation sets for each class (HU, RA, FO, VA) make two attack animations for each weapon, one for the class that's adept with that weapon, and one for the classes that are not.

Allison_W
Sep 20, 2010, 02:05 AM
Where do you weigh in on the animation differences between genders? I was thinking that maybe it would be better if there was only different types of walk animations and standing stances, that could be chosen on the fly like lobby actions. Like switching to the cool-guy-bad-ass strut and stance, or the limping walk and injured stance. Or... the childish skipping run with ... some kind of lazy stance. More customization for the fundamental movement and posture of our characters that's seen mostly during the down time between missions would be an nice touch.

I think attack animation differences could be split between the class types, instead of genders. Only instead of making 4 different animation sets for each class (HU, RA, FO, VA) make two attack animations for each weapon, one for the class that's adept with that weapon, and one for the classes that are not.

I wasn't really a big fan of the gender-based animations used for weapon attacks in the past, because they invoked balance concerns. For example, in PSO, the HUmar had a very fast saber combo, while the HUnewearl's was lengthier. For another example, in PSU, the female sword animation actually had a decent arc on the first swing, but the male sword animation hit a very narrow arc on the first swing. Another example from PSU is that the female twin claw animation got an entire extra attack. I can understand wanting the male and female characters to not move the exact same way, but in that case, the animations would have to be standardized for time, forward motion, arc of effect, and the like. (And see notes on differences in gait below; the same concerns are relevant here, too.)

Also, some of the animations in PSO seemed a bit odd, aesthetically speaking. The FOmarl was specifically described as "competent with weapons" (at least for a force), but she swung them around like she hadn't been formally trained with them at all, while the newman forces, who weren't really competent with weapons, used them in a considerably less haphazard manner. But I digress.

I do like the idea about being able to choose how one walks, and performs other animations, as opposed to just having one set gait for each race and gender combination--Champions Online, for all its failures, did this, and I'm glad they did. It kind of bothers me when female characters all get stuck walking and running like they're in high heels, and I know my significant other, to grasp for an example, would appreciate not getting stuck with a girly gait for her characters, were I to successfully beg her to get a copy and play along with me.

I'm not sure about the idea for splitting animations between "competent" classes with regard to a given equipment type and "incompetent" classes with regard to the same equipment type--I know forces, for instance, have a much lower melee PA cap than hunters, but if your force raises their proficiency in a given weapon all the way up to S-rank (just as an example), it'd seem a bit strange to see them still swinging it around like they hardly know how to use it. I mean, it could still be handwaved on the grounds of things like the PA skill caps representing skill limitations, but an alternative would be to base the animation used on the proficiency rank you have in a given weapon type. Even then, though, balance concerns abound, and one set of animations for each weapon type would be the safest in that regard.

Seth Astra
Sep 20, 2010, 08:29 AM
Honestly, I think that, although removing the races would create some more balance, it'd also create an increadibly simple system. 3 classes (4 if vanguard is included) and that's it. There wouldn't be nearly as much variety in the available playstyles. Course, to make it really "balanced" why not also take out classes? Just plug everyone into the stat pattern of a male human vanguard, then it's even more balanced, since everyone is equally good at everything.

coreyblueexclusive
Sep 20, 2010, 09:09 AM
What PSO2 should have is,Xbox360 support,global servers,cross platforming,and really this would be the best PSO ever with these things.(Oh and no PSU graphics,use PSO,just update it.

Tetsaru
Sep 20, 2010, 09:58 AM
Races shouldn't be removed from Phantasy Star, that's crazy! If you eliminate the choice of race, not only do you eliminate a major customization option (both in terms of stat growth AND aesthically - ironic because so many people want tons of different looks for their characters), but you'd eliminate the possibility of having classes like HUmar, RAcast, FOnewearl - stuff that was around in the original PSO, and I'm sure that'd end up pissing off a lot of fans. Now, I'm not sure how Beasts or Dumans would fit in, if added, but it's usually better to give players options from the get-go, instead of forcing them into a specific, set-in-stone paradigm.

With this in mind, you could start off as a HUmar (male human hunter), and if you wanted to later on, you could become a RAmar (male human ranger) through a simple job-changing option (think the counter on the 5th floor of the Guardians' Colony on PSU, or talking to a Moogle on FF11). However, I think classes should be simplified between Hunters, Rangers, and Forces (instead of having Hunters, Fighgunners, Fortefighters, Acrofighters, Wartechers, and Fighmasters, which all encompass melee attacks) to keep in accordance with how PSO was, but depending on which classes you've leveled up, you could still have aspects of multiple classes that PSU was trying to emulate. For example, say you play normally as a HUmar, and you happen to find a handgun weapon that HUmars can't normally equip. You decide to switch to a RAmar for a while, and you're able to use that gun normally. But when you switch back to HUmar, you notice that suddenly you can use gun weapon as a HUmar, even though you didn't level up HUmar any further. Something along those lines... there are tons of way to do this in an RPG: allocating points in a skill/growth tree system, leveling up and "unlocking" certain abilities, finding an item or performing a quest or special training to be able to use something, etc.

As far as balance goes, it's definitely an important issue, but one that can be very difficult to adjust. Usually in most RPG's or fighting games, there's always one character or class that has a slight edge over the rest. You have to think about various scenarios and instances where certain moves coupled with certain weapons and certain races/classes starts to get game-breaking, and for programmers, this can take a while to pin down and adjust. As long as there's a competent development team working on things and keeping an eye on potential exploits though, these sort of things can be patched as they are discovered. Allowing players to send reports in-game to GM's would also prove vital to this process, and is a common option in many online games nowadays.

PSU's balance issues were pretty blatant - an obvious sign of how poorly managed the non-JP community was - although I personally think it just got worse after AotI was released and new weapons and classes were introduced, and everything just got easier and easier; hell, I remember the "bees" that gave melee players hell, and how Jarbas were once intimidating enemies to fight with their Megid and Dambarta spells that could easily kill players. That sort of excitement just vanished over time as I played PSU, and I feel that it's important for PSO2 to bring back that feeling of, "holy shit, this monster I'm fighting can beat the shit out of me, I need to think on my toes and formulate a strategy to bring this fucker down" that was prominent in PSO, instead of "RAWR ZERG RUSH SPAM PA BUTTON KILL KILL KILL LOL BIG NUMBARZ OMG KILL FASTER ALREADY WHY HAVEN'T I ONE-SHOTTED EVERYTHING YET" that was prominent in PSU.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 20, 2010, 10:40 AM
I feel that it's important for PSO2 to bring back that feeling of, "holy shit, this monster I'm fighting can beat the shit out of me, I need to think on my toes and formulate a strategy to bring this fucker down" that was prominent in PSOI'm sorry, but this never happened in PSO either. At least not outside of challenge mode.

Kei Kurono
Sep 20, 2010, 10:54 AM
I'm sorry, but this never happened in PSO either. At least not outside of challenge mode.

Sure? It happened to me when I encountered my first Hildebear ever. I thought that thing would beat the shit out of me xD But it was easier than I expected. Well, it's been 4 years or something since that has happened.. but I also want a "Wtf how am I going to beat this thing?!" feeling.

coreyblueexclusive
Sep 20, 2010, 11:19 AM
Races shouldn't be removed from Phantasy Star, that's crazy! If you eliminate the choice of race, not only do you eliminate a major customization option (both in terms of stat growth AND aesthically - ironic because so many people want tons of different looks for their characters), but you'd eliminate the possibility of having classes like HUmar, RAcast, FOnewearl - stuff that was around in the original PSO, and I'm sure that'd end up pissing off a lot of fans. Now, I'm not sure how Beasts or Dumans would fit in, if added, but it's usually better to give players options from the get-go, instead of forcing them into a specific, set-in-stone paradigm.

With this in mind, you could start off as a HUmar (male human hunter), and if you wanted to later on, you could become a RAmar (male human ranger) through a simple job-changing option (think the counter on the 5th floor of the Guardians' Colony on PSU, or talking to a Moogle on FF11). However, I think classes should be simplified between Hunters, Rangers, and Forces (instead of having Hunters, Fighgunners, Fortefighters, Acrofighters, Wartechers, and Fighmasters, which all encompass melee attacks) to keep in accordance with how PSO was, but depending on which classes you've leveled up, you could still have aspects of multiple classes that PSU was trying to emulate. For example, say you play normally as a HUmar, and you happen to find a handgun weapon that HUmars can't normally equip. You decide to switch to a RAmar for a while, and you're able to use that gun normally. But when you switch back to HUmar, you notice that suddenly you can use gun weapon as a HUmar, even though you didn't level up HUmar any further. Something along those lines... there are tons of way to do this in an RPG: allocating points in a skill/growth tree system, leveling up and "unlocking" certain abilities, finding an item or performing a quest or special training to be able to use something, etc.

As far as balance goes, it's definitely an important issue, but one that can be very difficult to adjust. Usually in most RPG's or fighting games, there's always one character or class that has a slight edge over the rest. You have to think about various scenarios and instances where certain moves coupled with certain weapons and certain races/classes starts to get game-breaking, and for programmers, this can take a while to pin down and adjust. As long as there's a competent development team working on things and keeping an eye on potential exploits though, these sort of things can be patched as they are discovered. Allowing players to send reports in-game to GM's would also prove vital to this process, and is a common option in many online games nowadays.

PSU's balance issues were pretty blatant - an obvious sign of how poorly managed the non-JP community was - although I personally think it just got worse after AotI was released and new weapons and classes were introduced, and everything just got easier and easier; hell, I remember the "bees" that gave melee players hell, and how Jarbas were once intimidating enemies to fight with their Megid and Dambarta spells that could easily kill players. That sort of excitement just vanished over time as I played PSU, and I feel that it's important for PSO2 to bring back that feeling of, "holy shit, this monster I'm fighting can beat the shit out of me, I need to think on my toes and formulate a strategy to bring this fucker down" that was prominent in PSO, instead of "RAWR ZERG RUSH SPAM PA BUTTON KILL KILL KILL LOL BIG NUMBARZ OMG KILL FASTER ALREADY WHY HAVEN'T I ONE-SHOTTED EVERYTHING YET" that was prominent in PSU.

Yeah PSU did get real easy..and I play blue burst now so yeah I can see the difference.

Powder Keg
Sep 20, 2010, 11:23 AM
In PSU you were more than likely going to have a hard time if you were underleveled no matter what when it comes to taking hits/etc.

In PSO, you could literally go through Ultimate mode without getting touched before Falz if you knew what you were doing. It would take forever at a low level, but it was very possible. I doubt this is going to be an issue in PSO2 though.

rappyman95
Sep 20, 2010, 02:05 PM
i hope they release it for consols and they put splitscreen on it

coreyblueexclusive
Sep 20, 2010, 02:51 PM
I hope not,unless it's Global,and it's cross platforming,no splitting the community please.

Heartz
Sep 20, 2010, 04:03 PM
Yes, I much prefer everyone to be together.

Razan
Sep 20, 2010, 04:34 PM
If it results in a better gaming experience, a proper experience for the thing it's on, I'm all for it.

You put out a 360 game without proper controls and voice chat, because the other machines don't do it, the hell with ya.

But imo and all that, of course. :)

Kanju
Sep 20, 2010, 05:28 PM
I'd like to see Blue Burst, with updated graphics and in HD.

In all seriousness though, this is what I'd like to see in PSO 2.

A global community. This should be a given.

Stick to one console/PC. Doing otherwise would promote split communities.

A more practical combat system. Flying kicks, psycho crushers and breathing fire is cool and all, but given this being PSO 2, I'd want to see combat go into the more limited style of PSO. I'm not saying to get rid of PAs, but as many people said before me, I'd like to see a little bit more player control.

More interactive level design. There's only so much that warp points and opening locked doors can do. I'd like to see something like jumping across gaps, knocking down pillars to create makeshift bridges, etc.

Weapon customization similar to Portable 2.

ChronoTrigga
Sep 20, 2010, 09:38 PM
I still think it should be vast world with missions picked up via towns.
The return of telepipes.
Actual use of mounts (PSU failed hard at this).
Public transportation via ships where you can see players below you while you're flying over the lands.
Multiple planets.

Eidolus_Dyne
Sep 21, 2010, 04:08 PM
Man. It's crazy listening to all these things. It's like, some people want PSO to be just any other online RPG. Some people want it to be identical to PSO BB. And yet even fewer people can see where PSO was heading towards, the steps PSU tried to take to get there, and ultimately what PSZ and PSP2 had to do to get back on track.

I think the past of PSO relied heavily on minor statistic alterations through leveling and weapons with minor stat differences. The characteristics that had a more profound effect on the gameplay, like physical movements of players and enemies, the offensive/defensive dance of action based battles, the special unique qualities of weapons, and variety in adventure based challenges. These are the qualities of PSO that will pave the way for its future.

Let me set this up for you.

I think the qualities we know and love about PSO were the customization options in our characters appearance and play-styles (PSO has established a trend of keeping these separate), the fun of adventuring around interesting terrain, and cooperative action based gameplay against monsters amidst our adventures.

I think that it is totally possible to customize your play-style without grinding for levels. Where the function is time spent = reward gained. Time will always be a function. Stopping time from effecting us is not even an option here. All games require that you spend time with them to develop your skills. The difference that I am striking here is where player skill, cooperation and knowledge over comes all obstacles, regardless.

PSP2 made it so that monsters will match your level. So what is the point of leveling? At this junction, leveling is an arbitrary distinction between players that divides the player base inconsistent to the level of ability and skill with the game.

Gear load out, this is a fun feature in adventure games. It gives you the choice to specialize your offense and defense throughout different categories and abilities. However, there's a difference between choices like... equipping a stronger sword, equipping a sword that is rebalanced towards a favored stat, and equipping a sword that has a special ability that you think will be helpful in battle. One is obvious, pick the sword with bigger numbers. There's no choice in that, the objectively better option is clear. The second one is more of a choice, like say... a sword that lowers your attack, but increases your defense. The last one is far more interesting. Say it's a sword that lets you use an ability that could give you the upper hand in battle if used correctly. Attack power, this will always be a feature. However, it's not enough of a feature to produce 20 weapons of the same class with completely different appearances, but no change but their statistical numbers. Especially since, like levels, it's an arbitrary distinction between players (who has what strength sword) that creates unbalanced differences in the gameplay.

I want to make a push among the community to consider how there might be more physical distinctions between races, classes, and gear load outs. With more options available by preference. Without level tiers in players and weapons, it'd be much easier to balance the game. Basically what I think PSO games would do best to become is an arcade style adventure game. The way FPS games have been doing it for years. The difference would be our arenas would be larger explorable spaces, played primarily in the 3rd person, and have more customization options available.

Personally I think it'd be awesome if there was an HP unit that divides your HP bar into units. So an attack dealt in one length can't drain HP from the next unit, only the next attack. Guaranteeing no 1hit kills, but it'd also effect healing items...

Abilities like this, which are passively enabled should feature some kind of trade off. So they're not the obvious choice to everyone.

I think it's important that gear based abilities function like tools. Like many of the weapon classes do already. Swords are effective on groups. That is their use as a tool, but if you try and use them on single monsters, the lack of speed will cause them to not be as effective. This is really primitive, not to mention specifically focused around offense in battle. When these games realize that more obstacles can be introduced to a cooperative adventure team, the tools at our disposal will have to evolve. Possibly even giving old tools new uses. Like using claws to climb some kinds of walls... or something. Just look at all the tools in Zelda and Metroid. Many of them have battle uses as well as environmental uses. It's hard to design puzzles around these tools without treading "bomb shaped key for bomb shaped lock" territory, but ultimately it's about just thinking how complex you can get and considering emergent qualities of their combination's.

Less RPG, real customization choices (not fake level tiers) and more Arcade. That's what I hope PSO2 delivers on. But won't for many more iterations.

keizeh
Sep 25, 2010, 10:14 PM
Only rares in red boxes.
It sucks when you hear the chime and rush to a red box only to find a high star generic.

Another thing is make it so dps doesn't outdo burst damage.
I find it odd that 170 power will outdo 400 power just because the weapons faster.
It should be balanced. If I have a level 15 sword and a level 15 dagger, by the time the combo is over they should be roughly equal damage wise. But I find in every PS title daggers/high combo weapons >>>>>>>>>> swords/short combo weapons.

Ithildin
Sep 26, 2010, 05:52 AM
I know what you are saying about rares. Some just aren't actually rare at all. This was a problem in both PSO and PSU though. The dreaded Varista in PSO and Kerseline in PSU. Although I did used to have fun picking up Kerselines so that my team mates would end up getting them when rares were set to order.

voxie
Sep 26, 2010, 07:07 AM
I don't know if this has been posted already, but another site have posted a vague (blurry) translation of what was mentioned on that one PSO2 video.

Trailer mentions as follows:

Action RPG

Multiple Client Requests (Feature from PSP2 maybe?)

Map functions change in real time

New Interface for interacting with environment functions

Global Development support

Races have been thoroughly balanced

An event where all users participate

Implementing seasonal changes

Original Chat System

New Mail system

A radical revision of the item synthesis system.

Expands on your character’s upbringing.

Event scenes

NPC Approach (?)

Your silhouette changes based on what add-ons you have.

New Photon Art? (Blurry)

Support for forming a community (Blurry) (Could mean teams again?)

Adding a custom element at the time of character creation.

Weapon training system in every category. (Blurry)

Asynchronous communications. (Blurry)

New Party System

A system where enemies cooperate.

An infinite amount of content

A new approach to the game client

Surprises occur every day.

Optimization of the Lobby Feature

Trump Card System

A function where new users and expert users can mutually interact.

-------

http://bumped.org/psublog/phantasy-star-online-2/

And TRUMP CARD SYSTEM?? Could it be like PSO Ep 1, 2 and 3 (the card-based one) merged into big sexy PSO sexy sex?! ZOMG 2011 hurry upppp.

Allison_W
Sep 26, 2010, 07:12 AM
I don't know if this has been posted already, but another site have posted a vague (blurry) translation of what was mentioned on that one PSO2 video.

[ . . . ]

Expands on your character’s upbringing.

Adding a custom element at the time of character creation.

Oh snap, now I'm getting a mental image of the beginning of Fallout 3, where the character's childhood served as the tutorial and character creation process. Plus the traits system that appeared in FO and FO2 and that is reappearing in New Vegas.

that would be like so hardcore


Weapon training system in every category. (Blurry)

Sounds like the extend points system from PSP2 is returning.


A system where enemies cooperate.

Improved AI. I approve.

anogio
Sep 26, 2010, 11:38 AM
I'd like to see visual representation of armor and plugged in units, such as glowing points on the armor representing the units (different colours for different stats.). I would also like to see Mags change appearance depending on the users armor, units, and weapons. I'd like to see section ID's return, but in a more balanced way (getting Pinkal as a RaCast blows hard).

More options for PB combo's would be cool too, with unique animations for each one rather than simply pumping up the basic PB's, with some being class/race specific (with the Cast PB's being remeniscent of PSU units perhaps, reflecting the machine nature, and so on.)

I would like to see a return of monster weapons, and the requirements to make them.

Team missions!

Server stored characters, and a stronger empasis on character security, to prevent duping/item synthesis.

Some form of crafting, or conversion, which allows classes to recycle otherwise useless items.

A better implimented item improvement mechanic. PSO grinding was OP (no drawback), and PSU grinding sucked (item loss potential outweighed possible gains.) Perhaps more stat specific grinders (+acc, + ATP etc).

Photon Power on weapons blows, unless the drop rate of ammo is seriously buffed. Rather, change the mechanic to incorporate 3 attacks, 1 weak fast attack that charges photon power, 1 medium attack (consumes PP, deals more damage), and 1 special (consumes a lot of PP, does something cool). Photon items could help boost the PP of the weapon, allowing attacks 2&3 to be used more often. A side effect of this will balance out historically OP weapons such as the Spread Needle, Lavis family, and that cool little orbital gun i forget the name of. another possibly side effect is allowing grinding to improve and customise weapons (damage types%, rate of fire, max PP or PP generation from attack 1), meaning that weapons will become unique over time, and coupled with the extra security against duping, will mean a vibrant trading economy will ensue. Imagine a Varista with 99% dark and rapid PP gen =).

More interaction with scenery (use of cover, climbing ladders, lifts etc)

More fluid melee combat animations, with lots of cool combos. Weapon specific unique combos for rare weapons, to remind everyone that you are the coolest kid on the block.

More animations for casting techs, and new techs (visible shield effects etc)

A better loot system to stop people yoinking your rares!

In PSO the item ident system was great, lets see that again, but more involved.

Create more meseta sinks to stop the devaluation of in game currency.

Class specialisation.

Weather and environmental effects, specific to season.

Some form of balanced PVP (arena's/teams?)

Clans/Guilds with shared storage.

Instanced player housing was cool in PSU. I am not convinced of it's worthiness in PSO though.

Events with unique prizes (1-off weapons, armor, etc)

Seth Astra
Sep 26, 2010, 11:44 AM
@anogio: You, my friend, are a genius. Sega, if you're listening, hire this dude.

coreyblueexclusive
Sep 26, 2010, 12:25 PM
For the love of God add Short cut's to hair selection,not everyone wants fancy ass hair,seriously.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 26, 2010, 01:17 PM
I'd like to see visual representation of armor and plugged in unitsEww, no. One of the great things about this series is that how you choose to have your appearance has absolutely no effect on your gameplay ability, and vice versa. Make equipped armor visible, and everyone will look the same with end-game armors.


Some form of crafting, or conversion, which allows classes to recycle otherwise useless items.I've got a better idea. Use PSOBB's team points system to give some use to low-end rares.


A better implimented item improvement mechanic. PSO grinding was OP (no drawback), and PSU grinding sucked (item loss potential outweighed possible gains.) Perhaps more stat specific grinders (+acc, + ATP etc).Yeah, definitely. PSP2's extend system is a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see the ability to customize virtually everything about a weapon.


Photon Power on weapons blowsHell no. PP as a character stat was one of the worst changes in PSP2. PP as an item stat allows for more stat differentiation between different weapons, which is always welcome. But this is PSO2, so it's almost a given that there won't be PP at all, but rather TP (which will serve the same purpose) as a character stat.


A better loot system to stop people yoinking your rares!Just do what the PSP games do. Each player in the party has their own drops, completely separate from what another player gets.

Seth Astra
Sep 26, 2010, 07:43 PM
Oh, and make the PAs/techs/whatever actually improve with each level. None of this PSU junk where only every 10 levels matter.

Allison_W
Sep 26, 2010, 10:47 PM
Hell no. PP as a character stat was one of the worst changes in PSP2. PP as an item stat allows for more stat differentiation between different weapons, which is always welcome. But this is PSO2, so it's almost a given that there won't be PP at all, but rather TP (which will serve the same purpose) as a character stat.

Actually, didn't different weapons in PSP2 have different photon efficiency rates? As in, some received a discount on PP expenditure, while others burned PP faster? That allows for differentiation between items while still making the game's special-attack-points system a part of the character and not just the item.


Oh, and make the PAs/techs/whatever actually improve with each level. None of this PSU junk where only every 10 levels matter.

Agreed. In fairness, for techs based on TP, like attack techs, every level did matter somewhat, but it needs to matter for buffs and debuffs as well. I'm not sure about making TP matter for buffs and debuffs--that's kind of sketchy--but dare I say that newman hunters and rangers (assuming newmans fill the squishy, magically-inclined space elf role they have been since PSO) need a boost to their buff and debuff techs, or a higher technique level cap in non-techer classes.

demonkd
Sep 30, 2010, 05:04 AM
a ps3 versions with split screen >_>;

doubleEXP
Sep 30, 2010, 08:39 AM
I just want PSO2 to be a TRUE sequel to PSO. PSO evolved.

I do NOT want PSO + PSU blended together. I honestly hate PSU and what it's done to the franchise, though I understand it's somewhat improved lately. It still always felt grindy in an un-fun way to me back when I played it. Even PSP2, which is better in some ways, is still annoying to me compared to PSO.

There's like 8 million PSU variants. Let's hope that PSO2 is a pure evolution of PSO. At least, that's what I hope for.

Allison_W
Sep 30, 2010, 09:00 AM
No, no one is going to get a PSO2 with absolutely no PSU elements in it, even if the basic structure is based on PSO. Assuming that everything added in PSU and its successors is bad or at least wrong for the series--and that the PSO2 team shouldn't use anything it's learned from the PSU series aside from "never do that again"--is bullshit. Yes, I agree that PSO2 should be based on PSO first, but I don't agree that none of the things that worked in PSU should be brought back. Yes, PSU was grindy in an un-fun way, but that was because of its glut of "free missions" as opposed to just having a plain-old field mode and then side quests a la PSO. In fact, I think a lot of the nonstandard mission types added in PSP2 could be used as inspiration for PSO2 quests--just keep the PSO-style field mode and sidequests for our bread and butter rather than the PSU-series free missions. It was that glut of free missions that gave PSU its sense of aimlessness and purposelessness.

That said, PAs are going to be back, whether you like them or not. They were in PSZ, albeit attached to weapons rather than to characters. That, actually, I disagree with--I think that extraordinary skills should be properties of a character and not their equipment. This is not to say I'm against bringing back PSO-style properties and occasional weapon-specific special attacks separate from PAs--for instance, the ability to burn HP or blast-gauge points to power wave attacks a la the Lavis Cannon or Tsumikiri J-Sword. But PAs aren't quite the same as those things. I'll also say that I'd be fine with PAs being toned down somewhat--not necessarily to the point that they were in PSZ, but such that both regular attacks and PAs are important. Just hitting normal attack, heavy attack, and extra attack over and over again is dull; so is just hitting the PA button over and over again. Come on, spruce up our regular attacks with some actual action-game-style moves and combos, and give us PAs that add necessary variety, function, and flash to our fighting style without up and replacing regular attacks. It can be done, and it's a worthy goal.

In the same vein as much of the above, I'll also argue for separating techs from wands/rods/T-mags. In PSO, techniques remained useful to hunters in many situations precisely because you didn't have to switch weapons in order to whip out a ranged or AoE attack to stun an enemy, bring it into range, or scatter a mob so you didn't get overwhelmed in melee. In PSO, melee remained useful to the non-squishy human forces precisely because you weren't obligated to use a special class of weapons in order to have access to your techniques. I do believe that force weapons should be handled PSO-style, rather than PSU-style or even PSZ-style--they shouldn't be necessary to make techniques, even attack techniques useful, but they should remain useful to hardcore techer types by virtue of adding special properties or a bit of power to one's techniques that ordinary weapons don't, rather than adding enormous bonuses to teching power such that attack techs become pointless without having a force weapon or equipped (a la PSZ) or preventing you from diving into melee on the fly without wasting time switching weapons (a la PSU). A wand that tops off your MST when you don't expect to need to melee much? Good. A wand that gives you a 20% boost to damage with fire techniques? Good. A wand that about doubles your MST so it becomes absolutely necessary for useful attack techs? Bad. A wand you can't use techniques without? Bad.

Also I'm just going to say that I hope no one is seriously arguing for PSO-style visual customization. No, no, no. That was one thing PSU took a step in the right direction on. I want a better wardrobe than PSO or the PSU series had, but I want it to be accessible to all classes instead of each class more or less getting stuck to one variation on the same theme. In the same vein, I'm also going to say again: a good selection of actual unisex clothes, so that female characters aren't stuck looking like teenage schoolgirls, cutesy moe moe dolls, strippers, or cutesy moe moe doll strippers; it actively disgusts me when the boys get another badass longcoat to add to their already badass wardrobe and the girls get another swimsuit to add to their severely badassness-lacking, moe-moe- and stripper-costume-glutted wardrobe. (Also, I'll admit I'm looking after the interests of a girlfriend with no interest in "girly" clothes. Accuse me of playing the Raphael to her Amy if you must; I don't deny it.)

bns1991
Sep 30, 2010, 09:34 AM
^^;Good stuff everyone! Let us see how much of our ideas and suggestions actually end up being in the game.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 10:42 AM
I just want PSO2 to be a TRUE sequel to PSO. PSO evolved.

I do NOT want PSO + PSU blended together. I honestly hate PSU and what it's done to the franchise, though I understand it's somewhat improved lately. It still always felt grindy in an un-fun way to me back when I played it. Even PSP2, which is better in some ways, is still annoying to me compared to PSO.I'm sorry, I just can't let this go. I know this is PSOW, where PSO is the second coming of Christ and PSU is the antichrist, but to think that PSU has absolutely no redeeming qualities compared to PSO is nothing short of insanity. Like I said before, if you are judging PSU based off of the first month or two of the game, then you really have no fucking idea what you're talking about. PSU has a lot of problems, and there's no denying that, but PSO had a shitload of problems too.

No, what PSO2 needs to do is to take the aspects of PSO that made it a more enjoyable game (better atmosphere, drop charts that aren't retarded, team system from BB, no half-assed synthesis system, etc.), and combine them with the aspects of PSU that made it a better game (infinitely better gameplay, greatly improved customization, ability to switch classes whenever you want, etc.), and then improve on all of the above aspects in innovative ways, while providing lots of new and original content and balancing everything properly.

Will this happen? Not bloody likely. However, it's just stupid to neglect all the improvements PSU introduced to the series in favor of stale, decade old gameplay conventions.


There's like 8 million PSU variants.Then there are 200 trillion variants of PSO, and you couldn't even transfer your characters between most of those versions! Stop saying things that are ridiculous.

Angelo
Sep 30, 2010, 10:50 AM
I sort of don't want the 'palettes' to return. I liked it how in PSO everyone had a favorite weapon and it sort of became your signature.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 10:56 AM
While it was nice on PSO how rare weapons were more unique, it really got very boring using only one or two weapons all the time. Hopefully PSO2 can find a happy medium.

Zyrusticae
Sep 30, 2010, 11:01 AM
Hell, I wouldn't mind if they dropped palettes and cut the weapon count in half if they introduced huge and varied movesets with each and every weapon. I'd love the game to death if they did that.

I mean, they can always add those things in the future. But the combat system, its very basic fundamentals, really need to be done right the first time.

Allison_W
Sep 30, 2010, 11:07 AM
I'd like to see the action palette return, along with BB's ability to map items and techniques to the number keys--I've often said that PSZ would be way better if we could map items and techniques to the touch screen, not just the action palette.

However, options for the item palette (or hotbar, whichever) should include a shortcut item-and-weapon palette a la PSU for those who want it.

Now for something completely different: should the armour system used be from PSO/PSZ or PSU, with the latter having different armour brands that, for the most part, all classes could wear, and the former having (between the two of them) armour with high DFP for heavies, frames with balanced DFP and EVP for everyone, and robes with high EVP and resistances for lighter types? And if we go with PSU's system where all classes can equip all armour types, should they be more like the PSU brands, or should their stat distribution be handled like the armour/frames/robes stat distribution of PSZ?

To be honest, I like the standardized stat distribution between armour (high DFP), frames (balanced), and robes (high EVP/resistances or MST) that PSZ has (save that frames should be able to have the full four slots; the three-slot cap for frames was stupid and just meant they sucked), but I'm not sure I have a strong opinion on whether they should have PSO-, PSZ-, or PSU-style class restrictions--or if, perhaps, all characters should have access to frames, with the choice between armour and robes being an individual customization decision rather than done on the basis of class.

I will, however, go on the record saying I prefer PSO's armour-element system to PSU's. I don't think physical attacks should have an element (unless that's actually a given enemy's special ability, as opposed to something all enemies have), and I don't think armours (in general, not the specific subcategory of protective gear focused on DFP over EFP/resistances) should be limited to one element where resistance to techniques and the like is concerned. I'd rather have DFP and EVP be the primary form of protection against physical attacks, with armours being able to provide resistance to more than one element--or, if MST is brought back as technique resistance instead of technique strength, to be able to have a few special resistances above and beyond their MST bonus. Having to complete a rainbow set of good high-rank armour so you could use your high-rank armour units without having to settle for high-ranking armour that's actually poorer protection than your lower-ranking armour due to its elemental attribute score sucking compared to your lower-ranking armour was a real drag.

Zyrusticae
Sep 30, 2010, 11:23 AM
Considering they said they wanted to go for even more ways to build and customize your character, I would expect (not hope, expect) they're following PSU's shoes and not limited armor types by class or what-not.

As for element defenses and the like... I have absolutely no idea how they're handling those, so I won't even try to speculate.

doubleEXP
Sep 30, 2010, 12:28 PM
I still think there are more than enough PSU-variants and spin-offs.

I really just want an evolved PSO at this point. The PSU-fans are well covered, but the old-school PSO fans have been waiting since BB for a true next step.

The reason I don't like things like PA's is because it adds mmo-like grind-within-the-grind to the game, and I don't like that. It's a bit like weapon skills in WoW. An arbitrary time sink purely to keep you playing longer. Honestly, imho, if a game is good then you WANT to play, you don't need to be tricked (or carrot-on-a-stick'd) into playing more.

But it's cool that a lot of people disagree with me. I don't mind. One person even started swearing at me, but it's all good. I think I'm on the record for wanting this game to be PSO'ish and not PSU'ish.

:)

carsten
Sep 30, 2010, 12:40 PM
I think I'm on the record for wanting this game to be PSO'ish and not PSU'ish.

:)

Amen to that.

As I play through PSP2 right now, I am enjoying it a lot but I find that the more I play the more it makes me want to play regular old PSO. I hope that PSO2 feels more like PSO than PSU.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 01:01 PM
The reason I don't like things like PA's is because it adds mmo-like grind-within-the-grind to the game, and I don't like that. It's a bit like weapon skills in WoW. An arbitrary time sink purely to keep you playing longer. Honestly, imho, if a game is good then you WANT to play, you don't need to be tricked (or carrot-on-a-stick'd) into playing more.So instead of making some minor balancing adjustments (some PAs do take way too long to level, just make them level faster), your solution is to just throw out an entire gameplay mechanic and the only thing that makes combat tolerable? Think about that for a minute.


And the problem of PSU versus PSO is that it doesn't have enough of the carrot. What is there to look forward to? The chance of possibly finding a item that after I find a bunch of other items might possibly give me the chance of maybe getting a weapon that does nothing more than 100 extra damage compared to the weapon I bought from someone's shop for chump change? I think I'll pass.

When you think about it, the carrot is essential to a game like this.

doubleEXP
Sep 30, 2010, 01:13 PM
So instead of making some minor balancing adjustments (some PAs do take way too long to level, just make them level faster), your solution is to just throw out an entire gameplay mechanic and the only thing that makes combat tolerable? Think about that for a minute.

I've logged well over 1000 hours with PSO (DC v1, DC v2, JP GC, NA GC, BB), and several hundred with PSU and its variants. So I've thought about it for more than a minute. First of all, you cannot "throw out" PA's from PSO, because there are no PA's in PSO. You would be choosing to add them or not add them. Second, I find combat more than tolerable in PSO (both in its own right, and especially when compared to PSU) -- in fact I find it very fun -- because I have lots of things that I can do at any one precise moment. I have three abilities on my fore-palette (attack, strong attack, special attack or a tech or an item) plus three abilities on my aft-palette (any combination I choose of tech's and items). Between those choices and the variations in weapons and their speeds and animations plus the variables added in by monsters and their behavior, there are almost limitless micro-decisions you can (and do) make while fighting in PSO. That's more than enough for me. To me PA's are mostly just fluff. Again, that's just my opinion. If someone likes PA's and PSU-like elements, there are now quite a few titles to choose from.



And the problem of PSU versus PSO is that it doesn't have enough of the carrot. What is there to look forward to? The chance of possibly finding a item that after I find a bunch of other items might possibly give me the chance of maybe getting a weapon that does nothing more than 100 extra damage compared to the weapon I bought from someone's shop for chump change? I think I'll pass.

When you think about it, the carrot is essential to a game like this.

I play PSO because it is fun. I don't play it to get to X level or to get Y item. My RAmarl is lv166 and still uses a Hell Arms with 50% hit because she's Redria and the only 10*+ arms-type weapons she has were mercy gifts from PSO buds (and they don't have hit). Never stopped my enjoyment of the game.

I play to have fun, and part of that fun these days is trying out different weapons and learning their timing and new ways to quick-swap between weapons for various situations. If I had level up PA after PA after PA just to be decent with the different weapons I'd start to hate PSO. That sort of stuff is so mmorpg-like.

Now, I do agree with you on one point: for long term sustained interest there should be something in the game that lures you on. For me that's the ultra-rares. In the case of my Skyly HUne it's the thought that just maybe a Sealed J-Sword will drop in CCA some day.

Anyway, there are tons and tons of PSU-like games now with PA's. I personally hope PSO does not have them and now you know why.

ARChan
Sep 30, 2010, 01:19 PM
Bringing in RAnewm/newearls and the return of Shot weapon class, the PSO slicers, MAG & their variety, and Ultimate difficulty would be my primary suggestions.

One of my major concerns about PSZ is the fact that there was not much of a variety of weapons to choose from. It was more like: if you have the stronger weapon, why use this weapon? Also, the fact that there was a major crossover for weapons in PSZ and PSU made using certain classes worse than other classes. Whoever thought of having HUcast/caseal able to use several of the strongest rifles have put RAs in a terrible place. Only classes designed for the weapon should be able to use the strongest of the weapon class. That was some of why I really liked switching my chars in PSOepI&II. But just note that I'm saying that they should competely disable use of HU weapons on a RA. Just don't allow the other classes to be able to use the strongest weapons.

And maybe a Survival Mode would be kinda nice. Just disable the leveling in this mode cuz I bet that lots of people would absolutely love to level up in this thing. Also, let there be some elevation to give the place a more natural feel. I remember I really loved the mountain area of the Control Tower perimeter because of this.

Zyrusticae
Sep 30, 2010, 01:19 PM
Psh, enough of this crap about whether or not the game will have PAs.

All I care about is that the combat is a step up from both PSO AND PSU. Don't use either of those old games to pull the combat rules from. Use God of War, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, or hell, even the Force Unleashed as inspiration for good friggin' combat. It's high time the Phantasy Star series of online games evolved past their old RPG roots, I say!

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 01:27 PM
II have three abilities on my fore-palette (attack, strong attack, special attack or a tech or an item) plus three abilities on my aft-palette (any combination I choose of tech's and items). Between those choices and the variations in weapons and their speeds and animations plus the variables added in by monsters and their behavior, there are almost limitless micro-decisions you can (and do) make while fighting in PSO.Ok. I don't see why we couldn't have all these things and PAs on top. Like I said, take the best parts of both games, combine them, and then improve them even further.



I play PSO because it is fun. I don't play it to get to X level or to get Y item.I've really always seen basic pleonexia to be the core of any dungeon-crawler like PSO/PSU. I've had fun playing with friends, but even still, I've always felt the need for some goal worth pursuing to get us to play the game to begin with.



Now, I do agree with you on one point: for long term sustained interest there should be something in the game that lures you on. For me that's the ultra-rares. In the case of my Skyly HUne it's the thought that just maybe a Sealed J-Sword will drop in CCA some day.This is really what I'm talking about. PSU doesn't have anything like this, and it is one of the major downfalls of the game.




All I care about is that the combat is a step up from both PSO AND PSU. Don't use either of those old games to pull the combat rules from. Use God of War, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, or hell, even the Force Unleashed as inspiration for good friggin' combat. It's high time the Phantasy Star series of online games evolved past their old RPG roots, I say!I'm all for some fresh new ideas to liven up combat, but it should still be an action RPG. I don't see how a game like this would even work over the long-term without the RPG elements.

doubleEXP
Sep 30, 2010, 01:38 PM
I'm all for some fresh new ideas to liven up combat, but it should still be an action RPG. I don't see how a game like this would even work over the long-term without the RPG elements.

On this point also I agree with you!

I'm not against the PSO battle engine getting a big tune-up, in fact it should get one. Even die-hard PSO fans like me can admit that if we want no change then we should... just play PSO! lol

But on that same token, PA's are not new and I never did like the way they worked, so I don't want them AS-IS in PSO2. Now, if learning PA's is way, way, way, way less boring than it is PSU, I wouldn't be against them automatically.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 01:43 PM
I don't want anything "as-is" in PSO2. That was another problem with PSU, half the content was half-assed rehashed shit from PSO.

ARChan
Sep 30, 2010, 01:44 PM
Here's a big question: Should there or should there not be that attack strut when near an enemy like in PSO? Traps were difficult to go across until I found out that I could just go into the menu to run normally around targets.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 01:46 PM
Why is that even a question?

Fuck no.

doubleEXP
Sep 30, 2010, 01:52 PM
Here's a big question: Should there or should there not be that attack strut when near an enemy like in PSO? Traps were difficult to go across until I found out that I could just go into the menu to run normally around targets.

Even though traps can be annoying, they also serve a purpose.

Just like I find it annoying that hitting edges/walls brings our characters to a complete stop, but that also serves a purpose (esp. in c-mode).

Those sorts of things will have to be carefully considered by the developers.

carsten
Sep 30, 2010, 03:28 PM
Even though traps can be annoying, they also serve a purpose.

Just like I find it annoying that hitting edges/walls brings our characters to a complete stop, but that also serves a purpose (esp. in c-mode).

Those sorts of things will have to be carefully considered by the developers.

Traps are perfectly fine. I definitely don't think an attack strut serves any purpose in the follow up game.

I do hope that TP sticks around. I am not currently a huge fan of the way PSP2 handles actions with the PP bar.

Allison_W
Sep 30, 2010, 03:32 PM
I'm going to go on the record to say that I too want PSO2 to be more PSO-ish in many ways than PSU-ish, but I will say that the team absolutely needs to use the things it learned from the later installments of the PSU series, like PSP2. There were genuine technical improvements that need to be kept and brought back into the fold.

As far as PAs go, I agree that leveling them up in PSU was grindy and annoying--particularly techniques. If they all leveled as quickly as melee skills did, then perhaps it wouldn't be so terrible. But PSP2 ditched leveling PAs through grind, and replaced it with finding higher-level disks just like leveling techs in PSO. There's your answer, doubleEXP, and I bet that's how they'll do it in PSO2. (I'd also note that PSZ didn't have PA levels at all, but I'm not such a big fan of that idea.)

Now here's one: should vanguards be brought into PSO2 to serve as the fourth class along with hunters, rangers, and forces, and should a PSO-style race/class stat system (in which each race/class combination is assigned stats individually) be used, or should a PSU-style race/class stat system (in which each race has a set of base statistics at each level which are then modified by class modifiers) be used?

My answer to the above two would be a) no and b) PSO-style. The advantage of a PSO-style race/class stat system is that when statting, say, newman hunters, you can reduce racial ATP problems to bring hunters of all races closer together to keep the gap from getting out of hand, while at the same time magnifying racial TP/MST differences to make a newman hunter's racial facility with techs actually relevant--you could assign stats such that CAST, human, and newman hunters effectively perform, to use K-12-style letter grades, at A+, A, and A- grades in melee combat respectively, while in techniques, CAST hunters get an F, human hunters get maybe a D+ or C-, and newman hunters get a B. In a PSU-style race/class stat system, the ATP discrepancy between races gets magnified for hunters (again using an example stat and class), while a newman's TP/MST advantage gets reduced, rendering its facility with an alternative mode of attack far less important than its comparative weakness in the class's most important abilities--in essence, it becomes CAST hunters performing at an A+ in melee combat, human hunters performing at an A- or B+ in melee combat, and newman hunters performing at perhaps between a B and a C+ in melee combat, which is an unacceptable discrepancy, while newman hunters perform at a D in techniques, human hunters perform at a D- in techniques, and CAST hunters perform at an F in techniques, which makes the newman's technique advantage pointless. As for vanguards, if a PSO-style race/class system is used, their role becomes more or less absorbed into the newman hunter and human force--I do not have anything against vanguards per se, and in some systems they make perfect sense, but not so much when hybridization is achieved effectively by choosing a race that diversifies a class instead of hyperspecializing in it.

I'm also going to say some real crazy shit here and say that human forces shouldn't necessarily be oriented towards using techniques as their primary form of offense like they are in the PSU series. I envision them as perhaps being a bit more like Gandalf, where magic is for things that you can't just do by sticking a sword in something. That guy's name is pretty much synonymous with magic, and he still used a sword for his whoopass. That's not to say it shouldn't be a viable option for them, but I would say that a human force specializing in attack techniques shouldn't be hanging back like a ranger or newman force so much as tough enough to wade in and use point-blank AoE techniques a la PSO's Gifoie, Razonde, and Rabarta--they should be filling the Not Squishy caster role, and oriented towards taking advantage of it.

doubleEXP
Sep 30, 2010, 04:01 PM
As far as PAs go, I agree that leveling them up in PSU was grindy and annoying--particularly techniques. If they all leveled as quickly as melee skills did, then perhaps it wouldn't be so terrible. But PSP2 ditched leveling PAs through grind, and replaced it with finding higher-level disks just like leveling techs in PSO. There's your answer, doubleEXP, and I bet that's how they'll do it in PSO2.

Do like!

AlexCraig
Sep 30, 2010, 04:02 PM
I completely agree with you, Allison. I can't think of much more to say than that.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 04:18 PM
I do not like the disk system for PAs and such. Make skills level, but just balance it so it doesn't take 2 whole days of spamming buffs at a PP cube to be able to provide competent support.


And I think I've already stated my opinion on race/class stats enough already.

Allison_W
Sep 30, 2010, 04:30 PM
Even if attack techniques, skills, and bullets are leveled through use, support techniques should be leveled through higher-level disks. Anything to avoid the dreaded "buff party" without making leveling them trivial.

Hm. If newman hunters get level 30 melee skills and level 20 techniques, what should human forces get? Level 20 melee skills and level 30 techniques--or perhaps level 25 melee skills, level 25 attack techniques, and level 30 support techniques?

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 04:34 PM
support techniques should be leveled through higher-level disks. Absolutely not. If PSO2 ends up anything like PSO and PSU, support will be one of the things that most people are downright terrible at. I don't want to be upstaged by some bafoon who has no idea what he's doing just because he had the luck to find a level 30 Shifta disk and I'm stuck with 29.

Hm. If newman hunters get level 30 melee skills and level 20 techniques, what should human forces get? Level 20 melee skills and level 30 techniques--or perhaps level 25 melee skills, level 25 attack techniques, and level 30 support techniques?Everyone should get the same stuff, with the ability to customize it from there.

Nitro Vordex
Sep 30, 2010, 04:36 PM
Use God of War, Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, or hell, even the Force Unleashed as inspiration for good friggin' combat. It's high time the Phantasy Star series of online games evolved past their old RPG roots, I say!
Aren't half of those button mashing? I didn't like Force Unleashed, it felt really clunky.





While it was nice on PSO how rare weapons were more unique, it really got very boring using only one or two weapons all the time. Hopefully PSO2 can find a happy medium.
Protip: You don't absolutely have to use the same weapons all the time. You have something called a choice. I regularly go and play with crappy rares, just to mess around and give myself a challenge. I see the lower tiers of weapons as more of a challenge than just Excalibur+TJS. Go do Ultimate with a DB Saber and a Varista, and meet my friend PAIN.

As for the PA garbage, I liked the PA's myself, I just didn't like that A) They were spammable and B) They were godawful at leveling. Seriously, it shouldn't take that long to level something up just so it can be stronger and cooler. I personally liked the single handgun+single dagger setup, along with the Moubu Seiren-zan. Seeing multiple setups like that would be great, that's something I really liked in PSU.

carsten
Sep 30, 2010, 04:39 PM
Absolutely not. If PSO2 ends up anything like PSO and PSU, support will be one of the things that most people are downright terrible at. I don't want to be upstaged by some bafoon who has no idea what he's doing just because he had the luck to find a level 30 Shifta disk and I'm stuck with 29.

This is a really good point and something I never really thought about. Forces should definitely be able to level up the skills instead of requiring on luck to be able to max out their abilities. Perhaps you make them find level 1 discs to begin with and the more rare discs won't drop until later parts of the game to avoid low level forces having every spell they could ever want.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 04:56 PM
Protip: You don't absolutely have to use the same weapons all the time. You have something called a choice.No shit, Sherlock.

I was responding to this post, if you missed it:

I sort of don't want the 'palettes' to return. I liked it how in PSO everyone had a favorite weapon and it sort of became your signature.

Nitro Vordex
Sep 30, 2010, 05:03 PM
Aight, aight, don't throw a bitch fit on me.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Sep 30, 2010, 05:06 PM
I'm not angry, I'm just always a brash asshole.

Don't take it personally.



Although continued usage of the "word" aight may cause me to do an acrobatic fucking pirouette off the handle.

Nitro Vordex
Sep 30, 2010, 05:47 PM
Aight, that's good to know.

Seth Astra
Sep 30, 2010, 06:28 PM
Ugh... I'd respond to a lot of stuff, but the many text walls that have been posted today have given me a headache. I say, PAs should level like PSP2. I liked the disk level system. That is all.

Zyrusticae
Sep 30, 2010, 06:38 PM
I'm all for some fresh new ideas to liven up combat, but it should still be an action RPG. I don't see how a game like this would even work over the long-term without the RPG elements.
I didn't say ditch the RPG elements. I just said ditch the old, boring, half-RPG/half-action combat.

I mean, hell, we've already got MMORPGs on the horizon that are looking to take three steps into the action combat arena (Tera, Blade and Soul, Continent of the Ninth). If they're sticking with the lobby-based small-team instanced format there is no excuse for them to have primitive, old-timey combat.



Aren't half of those button mashing? I didn't like Force Unleashed, it felt really clunky.
Hell no! While I will grant you that The Force Unleashed was not as polished as it could have been, it has a HUGE range of moves and they produce meaningfully differing effects, as well as responsive (this is important!) blocking and dodging.

If you try to button mash in any of those games at higher difficulties you are dead meat, no ifs, ands, or buts. ESPECIALLY Ninja Gaiden. You have to act with precision, using the right move at the right moment and then blocking or getting the hell out of dodge before the enemy's attacks tear you to shreds. They're the games that the Phantasy Star series have been taking small steps towards ever since PSO, then PSU, and even more with PSP2 (blocking and dodging ftw!). If they can take a few more steps it'll finally be a game where it really needs to be.

Tetsaru
Oct 1, 2010, 12:35 AM
For anyone who thinks stuff like God of War is all button-mashing, I challenge you (if you have a PS3) to go rent God of War III, set the difficulty to Titan mode, and see just how long you last against the very first boss. And then play long enough to get to the fight against Hades. Compared to normal mode, I must've spent a good 2 hours trying to kill that bastard without getting my ass handed to me. I can't really speak for the other games Zyrusticae listed, but I've heard Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 is hard as fuck, to the point where each normal enemy is like its own boss fight, and you often fight SWARMS of them. Bayonetta was no slouch either, even on Normal mode; knowing when to dodge attacks at just the right moments and utilize the Witch Time slowdown effects was often critical to surviving.

PSO2 wouldn't have to be THAT hardcore, but I do agree that the action needs to be stepped up and expanded upon. Slow little 3-hit saber combos just aren't that exciting anymore, but that's where PA's come in, though you shouldn't be able to just spam the hell out of them and zerg your way through everything like you could in PSU. It needs to be more skill-based: use a light/quick attack combo against fast enemies, use your heavy/slow attack combo against bigger armored enemies, use a spin move for crowd control, mix up moves for all sorts of combo attacks (Bayonetta only had punches and kicks, but had probably around 60 different move combinations - FOR EACH WEAPON). It wouldn't be difficult to implement this, and stats/leveling could be added accordingly for character growth.

Allison_W
Oct 1, 2010, 01:39 AM
Try God Hand. Even on normal, if you try to just smack the square button over and over again, the game will be more than happy to rip you a new one, then laugh at you as you die.

Kent
Oct 1, 2010, 04:25 PM
For anyone who thinks stuff like God of War is all button-mashing, I challenge you (if you have a PS3) to go rent God of War III, set the difficulty to Titan mode, and see just how long you last against the very first boss. And then play long enough to get to the fight against Hades. Compared to normal mode, I must've spent a good 2 hours trying to kill that bastard without getting my ass handed to me. I can't really speak for the other games Zyrusticae listed, but I've heard Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 is hard as fuck, to the point where each normal enemy is like its own boss fight, and you often fight SWARMS of them. Bayonetta was no slouch either, even on Normal mode; knowing when to dodge attacks at just the right moments and utilize the Witch Time slowdown effects was often critical to surviving.

PSO2 wouldn't have to be THAT hardcore, but I do agree that the action needs to be stepped up and expanded upon. Slow little 3-hit saber combos just aren't that exciting anymore, but that's where PA's come in, though you shouldn't be able to just spam the hell out of them and zerg your way through everything like you could in PSU. It needs to be more skill-based: use a light/quick attack combo against fast enemies, use your heavy/slow attack combo against bigger armored enemies, use a spin move for crowd control, mix up moves for all sorts of combo attacks (Bayonetta only had punches and kicks, but had probably around 60 different move combinations - FOR EACH WEAPON). It wouldn't be difficult to implement this, and stats/leveling could be added accordingly for character growth.
I dare anyone to try and get through Bayonetta or either of the current Ninja Gaiden games on normal difficulty (or higher) by just button-mashing. The entire point of the first boss fight in Ninja Gaiden is to hammer into you that doing as such will simply not work.

You know, to be honest, I would have no qualms with a new PSO having the depth and real difficulty (as opposed to fake difficulty) of a modern action game, but in an online multiplayer setting, with all of that levelling up and loot hunting we all love. There are plenty of ways they could easily condense the controls to work well on a modern controller, while affording a lot of freedom with the action palette system - for instance, normal and heavy attacks could be mapped to the same button (quick press and release for a normal attack, hold for a little bit longer for a heavy attack - a good example of this working would be in the Sin & Punishment games; the same button does your shooting as well as your melee attack, depending on whether you tap or hold the button), so we'd have more palette slots available for mapping any number of other things.

For instance, if we can expect the game to be played with a standard game controller (yes, I know it's a PC game - but it's also made by a Japanese company, so it's kind of expected), we could have the action palette, with no modifiers held down for it, simply have your attack button, your pick up/dodge roll button, your quick weapon/item/technique/trap button, and then something else (Extra Attack, or perhaps off-hand/alternate attack if you're using two one-handed weapons/one two-handed weapon)... And then three more blank slate and fully-customizable palettes for using LB, RB or LB+RB. I think a lot of old PSO players, especially those that played Forces or non-Forces that used techniques heavily, would really appreciate having that many extra slots available. It'd also leave room for a camera center/lock on LT and then something else, perhaps an active "defend" button, on RT. I think that sort of thing would work out quite well.

Though, for the "difficulty" part, I think I'd be largely okay if they kept it how it currently exists: Normal/Hard/VHard/Ultimate etc. are more for adjusting appropriate level ranges for existing areas, but as you go into deeper areas of any particular difficulty, there would be real difficulty added, instead of just statistical difficulty. This is somewhat already the case in PSO, just looking at the sets of enemies you're able to find (Delsabers, for instance, taking a lot more finesse to deal with than a lot of things in earlier areas). It makes sense though, that enemies could be smarter or have new attacks they can use when you're on harder difficulties (in addition to the standard higher level enemies, that is).

Of course, they also very desperately need to keep what caused PSO to have as much staying power as it did, despite that it has comparatively fewer areas than PSU: Varied areas that require exploration. Areas in PSU generally only had one or two forks in their paths throughout the entire area. Though this may have sped up gameplay for people (since the game largely focused around speed run grinding and kicking anyone for dying because it lowered the grade), it took away what was really one of PSO's greatest assets.

It's easy for people to look at PSO (version 1) and think of it as a game with only 10 maps, four bosses and a town, but each of these maps also had several variants that weren't simply randomly-generated - they were hand-crafted to make them into enjoyable and unique maps that players would have to explore to get through most of the time. When it comes to designing maps for games like this, if the player can ever obviously tell which one path is correct, you're either doing a basic intro level (Forest 1, for instance, rarely has forks you can take, but is designed to ease players into how the game works - and even it has several different variants) or you're doing it wrong.

I think that even if they had a limited number of areas, and areas that were repeated through various difficulties (a practice which some people like to wrongly call "lazy"), but had quite a few different variations of any particular map, that could prove to give the game quite a lot of life while minimizing the amount of art assets used in the process.

Explanation for the not-so-technologically-inclined:
[spoiler-box]Essentially, they're able to do this within a game engine by not saving off each level as unique data. Because so many assets could be reused between these various maps, they only need to save off which art assets are referenced in which parts of the maps in question. What this does, is it makes each area "feel" like it's the exact same area - it looks the same, it has the same kinds of enemies, it's preceded and followed by the the same other areas - despite that it actually has a very different layout. This makes the player think that they're going through the same area, or the same "region" of the overall game-world, but they're exploring a different part of it, essentially making the experience feel "new."

And on the technical end of things, saving data for a layout and a script for enemy spawns is a pretty small amount of data (since it's just code, essentially), especially when compared to saving out all of the art assets for any individual level, which can easily lead to levels upwards of hundreds of megabytes in size, which is just unacceptable.

This is actually the technique used in the original PSO: Models and art assets pertaining to any individual room or hallway were saved off as unique data, but any particular "map" simply stats which of these needs to be loaded, and where they're placed on the map. This is also how we were able to get all of the maps and variant maps of Episodes I, II and IV in PSOBB into the file size of about one CD, despite having a pretty impressive total amount of content.[/spoiler-box]

I think that if they did put a big emphasis on exploration and revamped the combat system into something that's more akin to modern action games, while retaining the players' freedom of equipping whatever they want (as far as their class allows) without restricting them to equipping certain weapons in certain hands or restricting them to only casting techniques with certain weapons equipped, that we could have a game on our hands with a lot of potential to be great.

Allison_W
Oct 1, 2010, 09:13 PM
I think that if they did put a big emphasis on exploration and revamped the combat system into something that's more akin to modern action games, while retaining the players' freedom of equipping whatever they want (as far as their class allows) without restricting them to equipping certain weapons in certain hands or restricting them to only casting techniques with certain weapons equipped, that we could have a game on our hands with a lot of potential to be great.

Agree. Techniques suddenly become relevant for hunters when they're a way to zap something at range or scatter a mob with a quick button flick rather than having to go through the process of switching weapons. That, and more enemies like gillchics, canadines, and delsabers--enemies with properties that reward off-the-cuff teching, like gillchics being swarm-happy but getting thrown when hit, canadines needing to be struck to bring them out of the air, and delsabers being able to block melee attacks from the front easily but not faring so well against even a HUnewearl's Barta. Stuff like that.

Zyrusticae
Oct 2, 2010, 12:07 AM
As far as controls go, I've always been irked by the "pick up" button. It always felt to me like something else should go there, like another attack button, or especially a jump button. Oh, lawd, would I LOVE a jump button (and all the action-gamey implications that go with it)!

I think they could do away with "picking up" entirely - just have things automatically go into the inventory of whoever's item it is (they could simply have everybody get entirely separate loot) with text pop-ups for recent acquisitions of note and whatnot. The actual loot would most certainly have to be streamlined, with a LOT less junk, which would actually make it a big deal when something lands in there.

The alternative is to have it be context-sensitive, which would quickly grow weary-some in loot-heavy battles. I prefer the clean route.

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 12:15 AM
Let's see...

A. IMO, a jump button would just go badly with this system. Too... KH-y... Don't get me wrong, I love the games, but the combat system in the PS games I've played is much better, IMO. KH just feels... Overly flashy and hard to aim. At least, it'd be hard to aim if not for the frustrating auto-aim. One thing I like about PS and the MH series, is that you have to dodge and maneuver around your enemies. Jumping would just mess with that.

B. For some reason, I like having items drop on the ground. That's just me, though.

C. It has been context sensitive, as far as I know. PSZ had the A button serve as both an action button and the "Pick Up" buttion. PSP2 used the X button, which also served as a dodge roll.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Oct 2, 2010, 01:35 AM
It was context sensitive in PSO as well, and it was horrible. Pick up was the same as light attack.

Re: jumping, I think it would be a welcome addition, assuming it used in a sensible and appropriate fashion.

Kent
Oct 2, 2010, 02:10 AM
As far as controls go, I've always been irked by the "pick up" button. It always felt to me like something else should go there, like another attack button, or especially a jump button. Oh, lawd, would I LOVE a jump button (and all the action-gamey implications that go with it)!

I think they could do away with "picking up" entirely - just have things automatically go into the inventory of whoever's item it is (they could simply have everybody get entirely separate loot) with text pop-ups for recent acquisitions of note and whatnot. The actual loot would most certainly have to be streamlined, with a LOT less junk, which would actually make it a big deal when something lands in there.

The alternative is to have it be context-sensitive, which would quickly grow weary-some in loot-heavy battles. I prefer the clean route.
Jumping... could get interesting. It depends on how they do it (which is a weird thing to say about jumping, but bear with me) - it could be something done as almost strictly an evasive maneuver (dodge things like Barta or enemies like Deldepth)... But having a dodge roll action statically-mapped to the same button could have the same effect (or maybe double-tap to dodge roll quickly). Another potential use of a jump could be to lead into different kinds of attacks, such as a powerful downward attack with a Sword-type weapon or something - which could in turn lead into a different combo after landing it.

As for a pick-up button being mapped... How about this: The button you use to access the quick-menu could require you to hold it down (briefly) to open a menu, but if you press and release it quickly while over an item, it gets picked up. It'd work, especially if they somehow decided to go with a PSU-styled quick implementation (by that I mean, you hold it down, a menu appears, and you release to select an entry - not in the way you assign things to it, that's just terrible) which requires you to hold it down to use it, anyway.

Doing away with picking up items in the first place is rife with so many issues counterintuitive to this type of game in the first place, there's probably not a feasible way of actually introducting it, unless they went with some kind of system where you're presented with a "loot list" after any given venture into an area (or perhaps accessible via the main menu), from which you can pick and choose what items to take out of the area (and perhaps the rest get automatically sold for meseta). I'm not sure how I'd feel about such a system being in place, though, despite not being incredibly terrible in theory. Inventory management has always been a part of this kind of game, and such a solution really just eliminates that.

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 08:52 AM
More on jumping: In what KH games I've, jumping was horribly implemented. Basically, the only reason to jump has been to dodge a few unblockable moves that are hard to roll under, or to hit an enemy that's flying. The former... I don't like. It'd just make dodging many attacks easier. You'd no longer need to time running across spikes, or focus on dodging at the same time, you could just jump. The later... I hated. Jumping to hit enemies made the combat extremely awkwards, since you couldn't dodge or block, and a large number of your commands became nearly impossible to use effectively.

Summary: Jumping was poorly implemented in KH, and unless I get a good example to the contrary, I won't be convinced that it'd do anything but make PS worse.

carsten
Oct 2, 2010, 09:51 AM
Doing away with picking up items in the first place is rife with so many issues counterintuitive to this type of game in the first place, there's probably not a feasible way of actually introducting it, unless they went with some kind of system where you're presented with a "loot list" after any given venture into an area (or perhaps accessible via the main menu), from which you can pick and choose what items to take out of the area (and perhaps the rest get automatically sold for meseta). I'm not sure how I'd feel about such a system being in place, though, despite not being incredibly terrible in theory. Inventory management has always been a part of this kind of game, and such a solution really just eliminates that.

Doing away with picking up items would probably ruin the game for me, honestly. I don't know about you but I absolutely love when I see a red box on the ground and get really exited as I am running over to pick it up. I think the system that PSP2 has where everybody has their own loot works very well. I have no issue with them using that same system in PSO2.

Zyrusticae
Oct 2, 2010, 10:50 AM
You guys are forgetting the most obvious benefit of jumping: platforming. Suddenly the environments have opened up considerably! Whole new avenues of level design they could never have considered in the past become entirely possible. Also, less of that immersion-breaking "impassable waist-high wall" nonsense.

Just imagine, for example, a level that has a segment taking place on rail tracks. You AND your enemies have to jump from place to place to avoid being crushed by the incoming trains, and you can use the trains against them by knocking them into them at opportune moments. The visual impact of seeing AI enemies actually leap out of the way would be huge.

Of course, it might help to mention that my primary influence is God of War. The way jumping is implemented in that series is simply, ahem, godlike. The way jumping leads into a huge set of potential attacks, from simple downward slams to crazy grapple attacks where you literally throw your target around as a weapon... Yeah, it's something I quite want to see in the future of the PSO series. Imagine the possibilities with whip-type weapons!


Also of note... FFXIV does away with physical looting entirely. Every kill, the loot automatically goes into a "loot list". If you don't throw away the items there they simply automatically enter your inventory after a period of time. It's still inventory management (personally, I'm not a fan of inventory management in all its forms), just without the whole run-through-a-huge-field-of-drops-and-pick-shit-up thing. Really, the only fun part of that is seeing something rare and running towards it... how is that any different from seeing a red item name in a list and excitedly checking your inventory for it?

Malachite
Oct 2, 2010, 11:03 AM
That sounds like an awesome idea for a game... that isn't PSO. I mean, you shouldn't keep everything the same, that's ridiculous of course. But changing it so much that it's an action/platformer like you describe, rather than an RPG wouldn't work out very well in my head. I do think it could benefit from some smoothed out gameplay though, as far as movement goes, just not as far as to call it a platformer. Maybe something similar to Zelda's level.

As for the picking up items vs automatically having them in your list, the appeal of an item on the ground makes it feel more tangible, as if it were something you could actually ran over to with excitement and pick up. Having something automatically sent to your inventory list is kind of boring, there's no real excitement in seeing a line of text in your menu, in my opinion.

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 11:14 AM
I don't really want platforming in PSO. I also hate the idea of making the whole thing into a mess of overly flashy combos. I like PAs being flashy, but I really don't like the idea of always performing some kind of crazy, flipping, jumping combos. Also, keeping the regular attacks simple makes PAs stand out more. Basically, what I like about PSP2 (best PSO series game I've played) is that the combat is all very well mesured. It manages to be difficult and exciting, without ever getting too hectic. The mechanics are tight, the block and dodge rolls flow nearly seamlessly into the rest of the combat, and everything just seems to flow. KH on the other hand (I continue using this referance since it's the closest thing I've played to what your describing) is extremely hectic. Flashy and exciting, yes. But it lacks the smooth flow of combat that I find in PSP2. It feels very abrupt.

Edit:
Also, I think that having items drop on the ground adds a bit of excitement. You see the red box, and there's that moment of anticipation. What will it be? Will it be something I can use? Just the anticipation is the biggest advantage to me.

Zyrusticae
Oct 2, 2010, 11:38 AM
The series has been moving away from its RPG roots ever since the original PSO. I really don't think you could argue for regression simply for genre convention's sake. Especially in this day and age where even MMOs are moving away from the old, staid RPG tropes. Just think about that for a second. MMOs have traditionally been rather stale because, well, they have no other choice - the sheer number of players on-screen at any one point in time, in addition to the huge bandwidth requirements, kept them from innovating very much (that, and the arrival of a certain genre juggernaut). But they're finally moving beyond that with games like Tera and Blade and Soul and even DC Universe Online.

Obviously, the PSO series is not something you would consider an MMO. You could say they have their work cut out for them: they have to build something that no MMO can offer. They have to take advantage of their instanced, small-group format as much as possible.

As for how the combat feels, that is entirely up to the developers. You can have the combat nice and tight without having it be a complete mess. KH is really a rather poor example, as it has relatively little depth in the actual combat. Any of the other games I have already mentioned would be much better examples of what I'm talking about, particularly God of War. As it IS a single-player game, it's probably deeper and flashier (and more polished) than anything we could expect from the PSO series, but it simply does everything right. Every move is carefully measured, has a very visceral impact, and is extremely responsive. You could even say they raised the bar and set it at its current place for action games...

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 11:54 AM
I am still uncertain about how adding a jump button would work, but hey, if they try it, and it actually works, I'd be happy. Although, to be honest, PSP2 and MHTri have the best combat systems of any games I've ever played, and they don't have a jump button, nor an emphasis on overly flashy attacks, but everything simply works.

Zyrusticae
Oct 2, 2010, 12:51 PM
PSP2 is a step in the right direction, but it still retains the repetitive spam-light-attacks-hit-PA-combo-repeat syndrome.

I'm talking about actual variety in the combat, something the series has lacked since its initial inception. It should NOT all be about standing in this certain place and then swinging or shooting or casting and then moving. That is boring and extremely primitive, to boot. (Seriously, don't know how you guys enjoy that after doing it for the millionth-and-a-half time.)

I don't enjoy the MH series, so we'll just have to disagree there.

Aaron22Darron56
Oct 2, 2010, 01:07 PM
MAGs do need to come back. The two things preventing me from getting PSU are no MAGs and the monthly fee. It would also be nice if PSO2 came out for Wii, seeing as PSO ep. 1 and 2 were on the GameCube. That game is almost ten years old and it is one of my all time favorites

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 03:36 PM
Zyrustiace: Eh, we may as well call this arguement over. Whatever the case, we don't see eye to eye, so theirs no real point in continuing an argument no one'll win.

On another note, I'd like to see techs like they were in PSO: Different. In the PSU/P system, all the basic techs work the same, all the dam techs, all the gi techs, etc. I'd like to see it like in PSO where the techs of the same rank (basic, gi, ra) have significant differances between them.

Malachite
Oct 2, 2010, 03:50 PM
@Zyrusticae

PSO2 does not need to share anything with God of War. They're completely different genres, regardless of when either came out. God of War is a good game, that doesn't mean PSO2 has to copy it. Nor does it need to be a platformer. Yeah, good games can be made from those genres, but PSO is not that genre, regardless of how well it might be done.

It's not "regression" if it stays true to and improves on it's own style of gameplay, merely because you find another type of gameplay to be more fun. If you want God of War, then go play it?

Allison_W
Oct 2, 2010, 04:41 PM
No game needs to stay true to boring combat. A jump button isn't necessary, but capitalizing on the action--since that is what differentiates the online Phantasy Star series from other online games--is.

doubleEXP
Oct 2, 2010, 05:09 PM
No game needs to stay true to boring combat. A jump button isn't necessary, but capitalizing on the action--since that is what differentiates the online Phantasy Star series from other online games--is.

I agree with this thought. The essence of battling in PSO has always been the fact that it is active, real-time rpg combat. It's a big part of the reason I love PSO and big part of the reason I always get bored of mmo's.

I'm also starting to think that I see the points that many of you are making, that PSO2 should take -- where it makes sense -- inspiration from PSU and PSP2 and the rest.

If I want to just play PSO as it is, then Ill do what I do to this very day: load up my GC. I'm starting to agree that PSO2 should indeed evolve.

I guess I just hope that whatever it is that it evolves into is something that, in its own right, is as awesome to me as PSO is.

Fingers crossed!

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 05:18 PM
@Allison_W: Which games are you refering to as "boring"? Are you specifically refering to the origional PSO games, or does that extend all the way through PSP2?

Allison_W
Oct 2, 2010, 05:45 PM
By "boring combat" I'm referring more to being limited to "light attack, heavy attack, extra attack" or "hit Y for a single set of regular attacks or X for a highly limited special attack" than to PSO and its successors being boring period--the combat system in plain old PSO was still better than pretty much all MMOs today, because nothing can save a game where the gameplay revolves primarily around "click enemy, click auto-attack, and occasionally click a special attack button." I'm agreeing with the people saying that PSO2 needs very specifically to learn from games in the action genre, many of which have been mentioned.

I think my favourite action-game element would probably have to be God Hand's evasion system, which was very rewarding... but such a thing isn't likely to make it in, especially as the game used it, because making games highly skills-sensitive results in incompetent players quitting and taking their money with them.

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 05:52 PM
Personally I think that PSP2 was pretty good as far as the combat went. I definitely think it could have been better in many areas, but I wouldn't mind if they kept it the same in PSO2. At very least use the PSP2 system as the basis, then tweak things from there. (e.g. allow casting without a force wep, using something along the lines of the special attack button from PSO, etc.)

doubleEXP
Oct 2, 2010, 06:13 PM
Personally I think that PSP2 was pretty good as far as the combat went. I definitely think it could have been better in many areas, but I wouldn't mind if they kept it the same in PSO2. At very least use the PSP2 system as the basis, then tweak things from there. (e.g. allow casting without a force wep, using something along the lines of the special attack button from PSO, etc.)

That's one thing I love about PSO -- the ability to cast tech's without switching out to a FO weapon. It's why I still play my 166 RAmarl and my 136 HUnewearl. I love being able to cast shifta and deband and zailure and resta and anti (plus the occasional RA-tech's) in between various combat moves, all while wielding my main weapon(s). It feels so fluid and fun.

Allison_W
Oct 2, 2010, 06:13 PM
Like I say, I'd rather have the action palette back than the PSU control system. Of course, the problem with that would be how to set PAs if they don't keep PSZ's "charge the weapon attack button," but in that case, I'd say that we should be allowed to set an action palette for each weapon in our inventory (with the default for new weapons being our last palette, with any weapon-specific PAs being replaced by PAs specific to the new weapon if we have them, or empty slots otherwise).

Allison_W
Oct 2, 2010, 06:14 PM
That's one thing I love about PSO -- the ability to cast tech's without switching out to a FO weapon. It's why I still play my 166 RAmarl and my 136 HUnewearl. I love being able to cast shifta and deband and zailure and resta and anti (plus the occasional RA-tech's) in between various combat moves, all while wielding my main weapon(s). It feels so fluid and fun.

Also, you don't have to switch weapons to get a canadine out of the air with Zonde, scatter gillchics with Gizonde or Razonde, or open delsabers up to attack with Barta.

Seth Astra
Oct 2, 2010, 06:39 PM
I'd like it if you could have a "default pallet" for each weapon type, so if you didn't have anything set for that specific weapon, it wouldn't be a problem. Also, going off the fact that PSO2's been confirmed for PC, here's my idea for an action pallet setup"

Arrow keys: Action pallet (4 slots)
Shift + Arrow Keys: Off hand weapon action pallet with 2 weps, single weapon attack with twin weapons (E.g. you could fight as if using a saber while you have twin sabers equipped), or guard with 2 handed weapons and shields.
Ctrl + Arrow Keys: Secondary pallet (used to equip techs and items. Basically everything people used the R button pallet for in PSO/PSZ)
Ctrl + Shift: Guard with twin weapons, and while weilding 2 weps that don't include a shield.
Spacebar: Dodge roll.
Number Keys 1~9: More action pallet slots (same as the secondary pallet. Got this idea from what I know about PSOBB).

I'm not sure on which key should use the off hand wep and which should use the secondary pallet. May as well just make it so they can be switched.

So, any comments?

Zyrusticae
Oct 2, 2010, 06:42 PM
@Zyrusticae

PSO2 does not need to share anything with God of War. They're completely different genres, regardless of when either came out. God of War is a good game, that doesn't mean PSO2 has to copy it. Nor does it need to be a platformer. Yeah, good games can be made from those genres, but PSO is not that genre, regardless of how well it might be done.

It's not "regression" if it stays true to and improves on it's own style of gameplay, merely because you find another type of gameplay to be more fun. If you want God of War, then go play it?
It's more I'd like God of War with laser swords, cutesy anime-styled graphics, and all the customization that PSU brought to the fore (and more).

This would be, to me, the Greatest Game Ever. I won't knock it if it's just a few steps forward from PSP2, though. This is just a bit of a dream of mine.

This is, after all, the "What would you like to see in PSO2?" thread. :-)

Mitz
Oct 6, 2010, 06:57 PM
What I hope to see in PSO2, first and foremost, is the vibe of the community. To this day I still don't know what made it so special on GC&BB, but being in a lobby really socializing was absolutely the best. If they can recapture this feeling, I will play this game despite any other flaws it might have. It's really the make or break for me.
Other things I'd like to see;

#1: Endgame. After being disgusted with PSU's lack of immersion I went over to World of Warcraft. This might make me a bit biased but I do think Sonic Team could learn something from Blizzard. In PSO, and actually all other online Phantasy Star games as well, there was just leveling. Sure you could hunt rares or raise MAGs or even do C-Mode but ultimately these were all tools to make your leveling experience faster/more enjoyable. After level 200 and whatever it currently is in PSU there is nothing. So you make an alt, and go level that one. It gets boring if I have to be honest.
Now in WoW, leveling is a big introduction to what the game is actually about. After you hit the level cap, a new world opens and there's suddenly tons of different things you can do. Now you might argue that once you get the best gear possible, it gets boring again but when and if that happens(You need to be very dedicated and have a ton of luck) Blizzard will roll out new content and BAM. Suddenly a lot of things get patched and made relevant again(pointed towards this earlier) and there's new content to enjoy. And if you get bored of endgaming, then you can level an alt or find a nice guild to be social with. Blizzard really hit a hole in one with that style of play and a lot of people have come to expect that from all other games.
I think Sonic Team should consider some form or way of endgame. And also frequent new content. I'm not talking about a different mission in the same area but just new content. Think Episode 4.

#2 Changes to rares and Section IDs. Section ID was a great system in theory. That being, that everyone would want to party with each other so you would have more chance at a greater selection of different rares. In practice, things naturally didn't work out that way. With the way that items were distributed and ninja'ing was common practice, no one trusted each other. Not even a little. Rares were distributed in a way that was fine when starting out but got pretty outdated as the game progressed. In normal and hard there were no rares worth mentioning except Invis. Guard. In V.Hard, there's only a handfull of them, 80% of them in Ep4. The cream of the pie was in Ult and everything you got up until that point is useless. Now this would be fine if you could do something with it. But after selling your 60th Varista for 10 meseta, it gets old quick. That being said, I really do love the rare hunting system and I do like section ID's. If sonic team would tweak them properly, it'd be a nice addition to the game again. I definitely hate 'synthesizing' my rares, that's for sure.

#3 Class balance, diversity and customization. The online Phantasy Star Series always had this edge over any other RPG I tried. There's always been so many ways to customize your characters , I believe there is even an entire community addicted to dressing their PSU characters up in style. And in PSO, I used to do it too. I had a pink set, with a pink Sato and my Madam's Parasol. A blue set with a blue Rati and a variety of weapons. Robo-set which was greyish by using system cells, Gratia and the Yasminkov series. I can go on and on. I would love to see this continued in the next PSO. More options to adjust your character's body and face, more clothes, VISIBLE FRAMES AND ARMOR and many different weapon models. Hell they could even implement stuff like changing your character's expressions and a new version of MY ROOM. The more custom stuff, the better.
Class balance was horrible on PSO, it was bad on PSU and it only got decent in AotI. I haven't played PSP2 yet but I hear good things so maybe ST is learning after all. Let's hope so, and let's hope they can keep the classes apart well enough for everyone to want something they feel comfortable with. Maybe they implement something like WoW's talent trees to really give each character a unique feel.

Sorry for the wall, I'm just expressing. I'd like to hear what you'd like to see in PSO2 as well!

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 06:59 PM
VISIBLE FRAMES AND ARMOR
Why do you prefer this over having them just as separate clothes?

Mitz
Oct 6, 2010, 07:05 PM
That would be fine as well, I was more thinking about how Frames and Armor never showed up on characters, except for custom ones like Standstill Shield, Chu Chu Frame and the like.

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:17 PM
IMO, it'd be better if they used the line shield concept from PSU. The armor can function exacly as in PSO, in fact I'd prefer that, but I really don't want to have to have my char look a certain way, just because it's my best armor.

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 07:20 PM
*Shrugs* Id Get Over It.

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:24 PM
Yeah, but I really like having a trenchcoat on my char. :-P

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 07:26 PM
Then Why Dont You Use A Secret Gear Then? Problem Solved.

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:29 PM
But let's assume that all the high level armor has this visual stuff. I can either: A. Equip a low level armor and keep my trenchcoat. B. Wear an actually good armor and not have my trenchcoat. I want to be able to wear what I want, not what I have to in order to be good.

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 07:30 PM
Then STA Extra Slots Make A Return?! Hell No....

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:36 PM
Honestly, I liked the visual units. They are WAY better than the concept of visual armor. What's better: Wasting a slot to get the aura thing you want, or equipping a sucky armor to get the aura you want?

Mitz
Oct 6, 2010, 07:38 PM
Sadly Sega doesn't like giving players a lot of options. An option to display armor would be a great one. Something like a visual unit could work too, though.

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:41 PM
The visual armor... Ugh... Bad idea, IMO. I'd much rather just have different clothes. That way I'm not stuck with a dumb outfit due to wanting good armor, or bad armor due to wanting a good outfit. The visual units, BTW, were basically just auras and such. Minor effects. Pretty nice, IMO.

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 07:41 PM
Honestly, I liked the visual units. They are WAY better than the concept of visual armor. What's better: Wasting a slot to get the aura thing you want, or equipping a sucky armor to get the aura you want?

Im A CAST. I Can Avoid That. =3 I Tell Aura Units GET OUT! And I Say Hello My Padaradi Cataract!

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:45 PM
So... You'd rather have, say, +25 ATP from a unit than, say, +100 some DFP and +50 some EVP?

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 07:46 PM
So... You'd rather have, say, +25 ATP from a unit than, say, +100 some DFP and +50 some EVP?

Dude. Play As A Cast And You'll Find Out.... Untill Then I Cant Tell You Sadly...

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:48 PM
Typical cast aditude... Just throw the newmans under the bus....

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 07:50 PM
Typical cast aditude... Just throw the newmans under the bus....

Dude. You Forgot The Most Valuable Part Of A Cast. The SUV Weapon. A Cast Without One Is Gonna Have Trouble...

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 07:52 PM
Well, let's say they do continue to link SUVs/Mirage Blasts to units: Why not just equip the visual unit in place of another unit?

Mitz
Oct 6, 2010, 08:18 PM
Also, I'd love to see the moody, dreamy synthesized music back. PSU's OST wasn't even that bad but PSO's was simply divine!

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 6, 2010, 08:19 PM
Also, I'd love to see the moody, dreamy synthesized music back. PSU's OST wasn't even that bad but PSO's was simply divine!

Hell Yeah. I Get Goose Bumps Listening To It!=3

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 08:21 PM
Also: Add a form of "Simple PAs" short, and not too impressive, and fairly week, but fast and low PP cost.

AlexCraig
Oct 6, 2010, 08:25 PM
Dark Falz (because we all know he's coming back... always does) must look threatening. I never saw the Dark Fish, but I heard stories. And PSZ's... eh... Now PSO, THAT is a god of darkness.

Allison_W
Oct 6, 2010, 08:30 PM
I dunno, Sakai said he was tempted to make the Great Light the Big Bad one of these days. If PSO2's Big Bad were the Great Light, I would be pleased.

Anon_Fire
Oct 6, 2010, 10:20 PM
#1: Endgame. After being disgusted with PSU's lack of immersion I went over to World of Warcraft. This might make me a bit biased but I do think Sonic Team could learn something from Blizzard. In PSO, and actually all other online Phantasy Star games as well, there was just leveling. Sure you could hunt rares or raise MAGs or even do C-Mode but ultimately these were all tools to make your leveling experience faster/more enjoyable. After level 200 and whatever it currently is in PSU there is nothing. So you make an alt, and go level that one. It gets boring if I have to be honest.
Now in WoW, leveling is a big introduction to what the game is actually about. After you hit the level cap, a new world opens and there's suddenly tons of different things you can do. Now you might argue that once you get the best gear possible, it gets boring again but when and if that happens(You need to be very dedicated and have a ton of luck) Blizzard will roll out new content and BAM. Suddenly a lot of things get patched and made relevant again(pointed towards this earlier) and there's new content to enjoy. And if you get bored of endgaming, then you can level an alt or find a nice guild to be social with. Blizzard really hit a hole in one with that style of play and a lot of people have come to expect that from all other games.
I think Sonic Team should consider some form or way of endgame. And also frequent new content. I'm not talking about a different mission in the same area but just new content. Think Episode 4.


Rebirth System from PSPo2i

Mitz
Oct 6, 2010, 10:51 PM
What's that? Sounds interesting.

Seth Astra
Oct 6, 2010, 10:54 PM
Basically, from a certain level onwards, you can return to level 1, but with boosted stats. Your type levels also stay the same, and the cap actually goes up... Or so I've heard.

SquashDemon
Oct 7, 2010, 05:22 AM
I'm pretty sure even by saying anything I set a standard that I know I won't see, but hey, I'll go ahead and say my piece:

I want a game that combined EVERYTHING that worked with the PSO Series of games, and nothing that didn't.

starting with PSO, Damn. Near. Everything. Rocked. (this is my opinion, if you don't agree, that's fine, but I really don't care, it has nothing to do with MY opinion so rar) Only failing was PVP, it sucked, it was rediculously unfair, and the "games" you could play for wins/losses were more like obstacles than any semblance of enjoyable experience. Also, Moar customization, but more on that later. Biggest complaint I've ever had with DC/GCN/XBOX PSO was the shoddy occaisional translational error, See Assault Card's description for raeg regarding that.

PSU
Photon Arts!
everything else sucked. (lawl)
No, not really, I loved the ability to customize your character, turn their heads, the lock-on system, and your ability to sit on benches, and look more like you're hanging out, no fart chairs either.

PSZ:
Evasion technique! More Racial classes!

So now that we've established that, what do we get?

A Mess!

No wait...more like this:

Bring Back the Ragol Plot, expand upon it, I mean yes, the ship has landed, but the story may not be over, as I recall, only Great Light can destroy Dark Falz after all. but seriously, more Darkness, More actual tragedy, More Ash Being a Boyscout, Bernie being a PI Elenor being cute, and most of all, More MONTAGUE! *cough*

Use a combination of PSU and PSZ's Philosophy of Photon Arts, use them instantly, in exchange for TP, like any other special attack, Learn them like techs and Attach them to your weapons, have different pallets with the same weapon but a different PA equipped for moar joy!

Techs are not PA's and should not be treated as such. A Force's mind is in their head, not in their staff. Also, PA's that increase the range of certain techs or make them act differently on force weapons would be a good idea as a replacement of Techs masquerading as PA's.

Some Kinda workaround for PVP, I dunno, maybe a turn-based System that's mostly there to make both characters look cool? Oh Who am I kidding PVP just doesn't work with PSO, they tried and what we got was their best idea. *kicks stone*

PSU's Character Clothing Idea with Preset CONCEPT designs for each character class, I.E. a HUmar will start with the traditional Ash's uniform, but be able to change in/out parts of it. Also, an added RGB Bar for clothing as well as hair. Added customization is never a bad thing. That and a HUmar Dressed like a RAmar would be kinda funny.

PSZ's Epic Manuver butan! The Dodge roll! Only, a bit more conditional, instead of diverolling everywhere, maybe a Sidehop, backshuffle or backflip, and a forward diveroll. iunno, maybe even a system that lets players learn evasive techniques like they do techs and PA's, start with a forward only dodgeroll that can't be used during lock-on or summat.

And finally, package the deal with the original Four Episodes! I wanna play EP III again! I wanna live through those old quests like Seat of the Heart and Blue Shield Memories! I wanna Summon a Del Rappy! And Laugh at the stupid NPC who summoned a Soul Eater while I hide behind spam monsters!

Allison_W
Oct 7, 2010, 05:48 AM
PSU
Photon Arts!
everything else sucked. (lawl)
No, not really, I loved the ability to customize your character, turn their heads, the lock-on system, and your ability to sit on benches, and look more like you're hanging out, no fart chairs either.

Good way to look at it; PSU did have a lot of sad-trumpet-worthy moments, but there were some actual useful developments.


Bring Back the Ragol Plot, expand upon it, I mean yes, the ship has landed, but the story may not be over, as I recall, only Great Light can destroy Dark Falz after all. but seriously, more Darkness, More actual tragedy, More Ash Being a Boyscout, Bernie being a PI Elenor being cute, and most of all, More MONTAGUE! *cough*

I think you mean Ash going through a midlife crisis with his 9-5 job, 2.3 kids, and mortgage; Bernie being an old fart who won't shut up about how when he was a PI he had to walk FIFTEEN MILES through the Forest and Caves and Mines and Ruins and back again uphill both ways; and Montague not being a kid genius anymore.


Use a combination of PSU and PSZ's Philosophy of Photon Arts, use them instantly, in exchange for TP, like any other special attack, Learn them like techs and Attach them to your weapons, have different pallets with the same weapon but a different PA equipped for moar joy!

PSO/PSZ's non-regenerating TP might help to curb PA abuse--or maybe not; PP regenerated pretty slowly back in the PSU-proper days and people just burned through Photon Charges.


Techs are not PA's and should not be treated as such. A Force's mind is in their head, not in their staff. Also, PA's that increase the range of certain techs or make them act differently on force weapons would be a good idea as a replacement of Techs masquerading as PA's.

I'm not sure force weapons actually need PAs as such. Rather, modifications to particular techniques, like power bonuses to a given element, or range increases, or the like might be more apt--I think PSO got how to do force weapons right, though dare I say the force-weapon S-ranks really needed the ability to add tech damage/range/etc. modifiers in Gallon's Shop and not just extra-attack properties.


PSZ's Epic Manuver butan! The Dodge roll! Only, a bit more conditional, instead of diverolling everywhere, maybe a Sidehop, backshuffle or backflip, and a forward diveroll. iunno, maybe even a system that lets players learn evasive techniques like they do techs and PA's, start with a forward only dodgeroll that can't be used during lock-on or summat.

I liked God Hand's evasion system. It dedicated the right stick to evasion instead of the camera--tilt it backwards to backflip, tilt it left or right to sidestep, and tilt it forwards to duck. And if you didn't learn how to do it, you died against the first two mooks in the very first part of the very first stage.


And finally, package the deal with the original Four Episodes! I wanna play EP III again! I wanna live through those old quests like Seat of the Heart and Blue Shield Memories! I wanna Summon a Del Rappy! And Laugh at the stupid NPC who summoned a Soul Eater while I hide behind spam monsters!

Unlikely, alas.

Seth Astra
Oct 7, 2010, 08:53 AM
@SquashDemon: One other thing from the PSU games: The ability to use 2 one handed weapons. Only this time remove the thing where you can only equip each weapon type in a certain hand.

Mitz
Oct 7, 2010, 09:16 AM
@SquashDemon: One other thing from the PSU games: The ability to use 2 one handed weapons. Only this time remove the thing where you can only equip each weapon type in a certain hand.

Maybe exclusive to some classes.

Tetsaru
Oct 7, 2010, 10:56 AM
@SquashDemon: One other thing from the PSU games: The ability to use 2 one handed weapons. Only this time remove the thing where you can only equip each weapon type in a certain hand.


Maybe exclusive to some classes.

If PSO2 brings back Acrofighter or a similar class, I'd love to see them be able to mix and match different sabers, daggers, claws, etc. For example, instead of having a fixed pair of weapons (like the Heavy Twins, although they could still use those if they wanted), they could use, say, a DB's Saber + a Durandal, or a Falclaw + a Halp Serafi. If they were two of the same type of weapon, then they could use PA's of the same twin pair type (for example, if you had the DB's Saber + Durandal, you could still use Assault Crush). However, if you had two different weapon types, then new specialized PA's or moves could be associated with them (for example, equipping a claw and a dagger would require a PA specifically for that combination). Heck, along with this, you could also use individual single-hand weapon PA's, but choose which weapon you use to do it with (for example, if you had the DB's Saber + Durandal, you could use Rising Strike with either weapon or Assault Crush with both, OR if you had the Falclaw + Halp Serafi, you could have Bukuu Saien-zan or Hikai Shuha-zan with each weapon plus a new PA that utilizes both). As long as PA's didn't need to be linked to weapons anymore, and were just activated through different button presses/combinations, I could see this being very viable. I doubt PSO2 will bring back the classes of PSU, but they might could implement it as say, a perk that only HUnewms/HUnewearls can take advantage of, and give each class something unique that no other class can do. Either that, or there could be a difficult quest involved to unlock the ability to use it.

Similarly, one could also utilize two one-handed gun weapons, such as a mechgun + a crossbow, or allow MAGs to perform auto-attacks along with these weapons depending on their model and how they were leveled (similar to PSU's range-MAGs, except maybe some could cast techs or fly around and divebomb enemies for physical damage). Or you could just stick with the old saber + handgun combo. With two one-handed guns though, I would love to be able to target two enemies at once with each gun and still be able to move around (I think Devil May Cry did something like this).

ChronoTrigga
Oct 7, 2010, 10:13 PM
Bring back the Quest system from Phantasy Star IV. :D

HUkyasuto Mk.2
Oct 7, 2010, 10:22 PM
Changing Music.

Seth Astra
Oct 7, 2010, 11:04 PM
I honestly would like the dual-weilding just as is in PSU, except without the hand restrictions. And no ability to equip two of the same type without a twin weapon. That'd be kinda weird as far as damage calculations went.

Nitro Vordex
Oct 7, 2010, 11:17 PM
Also, I'd love to see the moody, dreamy synthesized music back. PSU's OST wasn't even that bad but PSO's was simply divine!
Caves was a Divine Punisher.

AlexCraig
Oct 8, 2010, 12:05 AM
Caves was a Divine Punisher.

Caves was A Kink in the Wind and the Way

SquashDemon
Oct 8, 2010, 05:31 PM
Idola - Have the Immortal Sword, was a Double Cannon

Also, the Jukebox, so everyone can learn how to understand, understand, the concept, the concept of LOVE!

And all that good shit from other Sega games.

Hell, tracks from the original four PS games might not be a bad idea either.

thunder-ray
Oct 10, 2010, 01:36 AM
What I would like to see is more light attack techs and give forces the ability to cast techs in like A three hit combo style like the hunters and rangers can do.

Allison_W
Oct 10, 2010, 12:58 PM
I want barracks in the Hunter's Guild. Unless they're prepared to let us, like, buy our own houses, but the barracks in PSU and its successors were honestly swank enough to satisfy me.

bns1991
Oct 10, 2010, 04:41 PM
One thing that I likes about the original pso was the ability to drop items almost anywhere. To me, it is an unappreciated feature that is convenient at times.

Nitro Vordex
Oct 10, 2010, 05:07 PM
Caves was A Kink in the Wind and the Way
You missed the joke.

AlexCraig
Oct 10, 2010, 05:26 PM
I must have. Ah well.

Italia
Oct 10, 2010, 05:32 PM
Battle sensitive music, immersive customization options (akin to PSU), a different graphics engine from PSU; something more befitting of PSO. A good balance between light and darkness.

A different battle system from PSU; I'm sorry but I just don't like the way PSU plays. It's very loose. The return of MAGs, The option of choosing your Section I.D.

Rebalanced drop charts; some drops are nearly thirty-thousand to one. That's too much for a rare; whether you're offline or on.

Cells for ALL MAGs, that way a Hunter can own a Power oriented Sita; whereas a Sita mag is entirely exclusive to Forces. Some MAGs are very nice looking, yet in order to own one, you would need a certain character class, gender and statistic for it. At least give us the option with a Cell.

The ability to change a MAG's lights.

More weaponry! And more emphasis on class exclusivity. Personally, I don't think a Hunter or Force should be able to use any ranger weapon except for a handgun. Mechguns should be Ranger exclusive in my opinion.

A remastered soundtrack. Not just rips from PSO (it should be obvious enough that Sega wouldn't do this though).

The return of PSO's original rares. I love the gigantic shotguns and swords.

Larger environments, or extended environments. Look at the end of De Rol Le's battle in the underground sewer channel. Why is there a sewer on Ragol? Obviously to discard waste or undesirables, but from what source?

Allow us to board off of the raft and onto that small pavilion and into the SEWER 1 which than can lead upwards into the maintenance area and finally, the MINES.

Areas from Episode 3 as playable stages in PSO2.

C'mon people; you don't want to find out what's skulking about the mysterious fields of Unguis Lapis? Or the domesticated caves of Mortis Fons? How about the Tower of Caelum? Wouldn't you love to have a rush of enemies to battle on top of that rising elevator as you overlook Ragol below? Throw enemies off of the elevator whilst trying to keep yourself and your allies from falling to their own dooms as well?

More enemies and not just palette swaps.

You know the one's I'm talking about, your typical mobs; Boomas, Sharks, Dimenians...at least have them behave differently.

Quick time button presses would be nice in order to avoid certain attacks or get a tentative strike on an enemy at the right moment during a combo or counterattack.

The ability to explore Pioneer 2! Honestly; it's a gigantic city encased inside of a spaceship! We get teased with police vehicles and elevators zooming by in the background, yet we're stuck to catwalk which contains access to the Principal's office, shops, your bank, the Hunters guild and the main teleporter. There's more to see and I want to see what happens in the streets of Pioneer 2.

Specialized gameplay for each class.

More emphasis on close-combat with Hunters, giving them throws and more pressure ability. The ability to zone and actually guard with weapons and shields.

Better emphasis on gunning with Rangers, give them a better sniping mechanic, crosshairs for shooting, improved lock-on, limited Photon energy which can be reloaded with Photon magazines (look at the base Rifles or any base firearm in PSO; they're loaded with a cartridge of Photon which never seems to wear out).

And finally, a better emphasis on magic with Forces. More spells, the ability to combo spells, a better magic system that doesn't rely on a force to have a Soul 'x' weapon in order to recycle TP without needing to drink down abhorrent amounts of fluids.

More customizable weaponry. Different scopes or sights and grips for firearms, specialized technique for mixing and matching combat weapons with Hunters, the ability to adjust photon percentages on weapons (to a certain degree). Such as, if you have 50% Native on a Partisan, you can have it readjusted (for a fee) and divided into the other categories. So 50% of that Native could be split into 18% for Dark and 7% in Mechanical/Machine. Give Force weapons more function.

Make the enemies scarier. Zombified sharks deep within the flooded caves of a volcano? That sounds pretty scary to me. Play off of it. Make the Sharks vast, and attack in immense groups.

I'll stop there.