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Ryna
Nov 25, 2010, 10:33 AM
I think everyone can agree that Force-class balance has always been an issue in the Phantasy Star franchise. In PSO Version 2 on Ultimate mode, Forces tended to do poor damage due to high tech resistances. In Phantasy Star Portable 2, the mechanics of the PP system severely inhibited the potential of the class. For Phantasy Star Zero, Forces were arguably the best class due to their damage potential and reasonable TP bar size.

What kind of gameplay mechanics would you like to see for the Force class in Phantasy Star Online 2? Assuming the game uses a TP/PP bar, would you prefer a game design that emphasizes a PP pool for each weapon (like PSU) or should the character have a collective pool (like PSO/PS2)? Beyond that, what types of techniques would you like to see?

MAXrobo
Nov 25, 2010, 11:27 AM
i think they should go back to PSOs system of having a TP bar linked to your character. and dont have it refill like in PSP2. insted make you use fluids to refill it. also id like to see the techniques be different from element to element. in PSU they where basicly the same, all that mattered was the resistences. i think that made using force characters really boring to use.

Jinketsu
Nov 25, 2010, 12:46 PM
Assuming we're not going to be getting a better and more wide variety of equippable equipment and parameters that help with the issue, a pool would be nice.

Hell, even if we have several different weapons for each element that enhance various different techs - I'd still rather see an overall pool to consume from, rather than applying said techs to a weapon and worrying about 6 or 7 weapons' TP.

Niered
Nov 25, 2010, 12:54 PM
I've been playing a lot of Sacred 2 recently, a good, if rough around the edges, sort of ARPG, and they have a pretty good system a few other ARPG's use as well, dunno if it would work in a PS title, but basically, it eliminates an MP or TP or Mana bar completely, and focuses strictly on recharge times for skills. Each character comes with three skill schools, and using a skill in a school sets all the recharge timers in that school back by the amount listed for that skill.

This works nicely because it forces the player to use skills outside of a few favorites, and actually level up and use skills that are more situational than purely damage based.

In PSO2, this could be used in a similar fashion, using a fire based technique, such as Foie, would set all the timers of all fire based techs on your action pallete back by a small amount, including the one for Foie, but using Rafoie would eat them up even further, forcing the player to use a different school, such as zonde or barta.

It also fixes the "-fluid" or mana potion spam inherent to ARPGs, a system that is just a spammy bullshit fest.

Justyn_Darkcrest
Nov 25, 2010, 02:59 PM
I would love to see the game go back to the TP system (MP/PP don't really care what they call it) as long as they bring it back to the techs being a part of you're char and not linked to the weapon.

I did like that PSU boosted the effectiveness of techs in battle vs. PSO low damage output at high lvls, I would however like to see a more balanced version of a warrior Force (like WT) that can mix techs and melee effectively.

As far as visuals go, it would be nice to have every tech look a little different (PSO had this to a degree) but I won't be too upset if they don't as it's the game play I enjoy most.

Kent
Nov 25, 2010, 08:55 PM
A TP-based system like PSO's, is definitely better for Forces - particularly if they decide to emphasize the dungeon-crawling aspect (which they should - especially if you look at something like Challenge Mode - which, if you've ever played that as a Force, you'll really understand how proper TP management comes into play).

Though, the way PP worked in PSP2 shouldn't necessarily be overlooked - I certainly wouldn't mind having a separate pool like that, for the purposes of using special attacks with weapons, or for using powered-up versions of any of your techniques (for the puposes of exploiting a combo made, if such a thing is in the game). However, TP should be the primary resource for casting Techniques.

Techniques, of course, are something your character performs, not something their weapons perform - additionally, techniques should all be functionally-different from each other, so that players are required to think a little more in order to properly exploit the elemental weaknesses of any particular enemy or group. PSO has probably the best arrangement of techniques for this purpose, save for perhaps Diablo II (which also had almost all of its spells for the Sorceress, Necromancer and Druid unique in comparison to all of their own other spells).

The technique type homogenization we saw in PSU is invariably a bad thing, just like the notion of specific weapons being required to cast them.

Msr. Bojangles
Nov 25, 2010, 09:29 PM
A TP-based system like PSO's, is definitely better for Forces - particularly if they decide to emphasize the dungeon-crawling aspect (which they should - especially if you look at something like Challenge Mode - which, if you've ever played that as a Force, you'll really understand how proper TP management comes into play).

Though, the way PP worked in PSP2 shouldn't necessarily be overlooked - I certainly wouldn't mind having a separate pool like that, for the purposes of using special attacks with weapons, or for using powered-up versions of any of your techniques (for the puposes of exploiting a combo made, if such a thing is in the game). However, TP should be the primary resource for casting Techniques.

Techniques, of course, are something your character performs, not something their weapons perform - additionally, techniques should all be functionally-different from each other, so that players are required to think a little more in order to properly exploit the elemental weaknesses of any particular enemy or group. PSO has probably the best arrangement of techniques for this purpose, save for perhaps Diablo II (which also had almost all of its spells for the Sorceress, Necromancer and Druid unique in comparison to all of their own other spells).

The technique type homogenization we saw in PSU is invariably a bad thing, just like the notion of specific weapons being required to cast them.

My thoughts exactly. I cannot ask for anything more than something like this.

Allison_W
Nov 25, 2010, 10:31 PM
I'm going to go on the record (again, really) opposing not only PSU-style techniques and techer weapons, but PSZ-style techer weapons where the weapons are such a huge part of MST and technique damage that a FO is pretty much obligated to use them, and a HUnewm/HUnewearl has to switch to a techer weapon to get anything out of their attack techniques. Techer weapons should be handled roughly PSO-style, where the bonuses are more moderate and attack techniques actually retain some kind of point when you have a non-techer weapon equipped.

Ceresa
Nov 25, 2010, 10:59 PM
I'm going to go on the record (again, really) opposing not only PSU-style techniques and techer weapons, but PSZ-style techer weapons where the weapons are such a huge part of MST and technique damage that a FO is pretty much obligated to use them, and a HUnewm/HUnewearl has to switch to a techer weapon to get anything out of their attack techniques. Techer weapons should be handled roughly PSO-style, where the bonuses are more moderate and attack techniques actually retain some kind of point when you have a non-techer weapon equipped.

Getting worthwhile tech damage in PSO already required switching between the 3 elemental staffs (and merges too) every mob spawn to get the elemental boosts until that glorious day that never came where you get a psychowand to get all 3 raboosts in 1 weapon. Making the weapons give straight up MST or TP or TEC or whatever they want to call the tech damage stat was a godsend...

Randomness
Nov 26, 2010, 01:16 AM
I'd like a medium between PSU and PSO tech styles, with regards to effect/appearance.

PSO, tech level had little to do with anything but raw damage. PSU, tech prefix basically told you exactly what the attack area would be.

I would like more variety than in PSU, but I'd also like to be able to hit a given area with each element (more or less).

For instance, I could go for Rafoie being the characteristic explosion, while Rabarta is a giant Barta shot, that on impact becomes a cone-shaped ice blast (Like PSO Gibarta). For Razonde, you could have a storm of Zonde shots with small splash areas come down. Somewhat random, but also predictable to hit a rough area.

Gi-techs could basically be Razonde, Rabarta, Gifoie from PSO. Maybe have Rabarta do a couple spaced hits (As a difference from Razonde's single blast, and it gives it more chances to freeze!). Obviously, Gifoie in this setup would retain greater range.

If you wanted to re-use Dam- techs, you could go with the straight flamethrower for Damfoie, a longer range, but non-penetrating hail of ice shards for Dambarta (Think PSZ's Rabarta), and a continuous chain lightning effect for Damzonde.

The basic versions could stay the same. I wouldn't be adverse to some techs in only a couple elements, as long as each had linear, surround, and explosive versions. Megiverse would be cool to have in PSO2, and the Nosu- series as well.

Kent
Nov 26, 2010, 01:31 AM
That sounds like exactly the kind of thing we want to avoid. PSU's style of the prefix defining the techinque's AOE was a bad idea - it made everything feel like it's the same, just different elements.

On the other hand, PSO's uniqueness amongst techniques (save for only a couple exceptions) are part of why playing someone with techniques was actually fun - because having to deal damage of a different element meant that you had to use different positioning and different tactics to actually get the most effectiveness out of them.

Though there are only so many ways you can deal damage to a wide area (as is the point of Ra- techniques, really), these differences were most prevalent in the basic and Gi- techniques. If anything, I would say that the only real techniques that would have to be changed from what they were in PSO would be Rabarta/Razonde (too functionally-similar) and Grants (basically a slow Zonde, and not really worth the TP cost and sluggish time before it hits).

Keeping techniques functionally-different from each other, especially between both elements and types, serves only to add depth to the overall gameplay. PSU's implementation of homogenizing technique types is only an example of how to take steps backward in a game such as this.

Chaobo99
Nov 26, 2010, 03:28 AM
I don't mind PSU's style of leveling techs and they grow stronger. But it'd be great, like everyone said, if some of the techs had a different variety of functions from each other, regrading elements.
All the ra,gi,dam, and basic spells were all the same from each other. I guess that was to compensate for varying elements. Wouldn't be nice if I had a surrounding fire attack(gifoie) for ice monsters but not a surrounding earth spell(gidiga) for lightning monsters.

RemiusTA
Nov 26, 2010, 03:50 AM
not only did PSU's prefix system damper the technics, it just flat out did not work. It gave you too many spells, tried to make them unique, but completely failed when it came down to all of them being useful in their own regard, where most of them just weren't.

In PSO, each Technique essentially functioned different from the other. So a switch in the element you were using was almost like equipping a different weapon for any other class. You had 3 to choose from, each with varying attack powers and speeds for your situations. When it came down to attack power, Forces always seemed like High Cost + High Risk = High Reward, as you were able to walk into a room and, in seconds, have everything on the floor already. Costs of Trifluids, however, were usually overwhelming for me. Were the TP bars of Forces in PSO unlimited, they would have little issues with any enemies in the game. But you constantly had not only damage output but resource conservation in mind as you fought. This is why i loved the force class, as you had lots of power, but were limited mostly by your own limits. In general, i really enjoy how PSO did things. Hunter depth was maintained mostly by your choice of weapons and armors, Ranger depth was determined mostly by spacing and utilizing the Extra Attack of your weapon, which usually balanced out completely your damage being so low, thanks to range and high accuracy. Forces depth mostly resides in good judgement, spacing and management of your resources, because once your Meseta runs out, your battle capabilities are severely stunted.

PSU/PSPo2 is just a really funny case in my eyes. The flaws of the Force class, in all instances, are simply an accumulation of ALL the issues with the combat design of the game. There are literally so many issues wrong with the class that when i try to recall them, im at a loss of where to start explaining just what all went wrong. Ill try, nonetheless
[spoiler-box]
- PSU's system of an experience-based leveling system for skills. It just did not work for technics. Everytime you went to a new planet, your character instantly became significantly more trash than it was before, since those elements you didn't use are coming back to kick you in the ass. And it isn't like you can just ignore it, either. Oh well, time to go spam SEED Express and level those spells up!

-PSU's system of "Every 10 levels". Once again, Damage increase was an important part of Techniques in PSO, but more than anything the usefulness of the technique was brought about by the constant evolution in form you got for like every 3 or 4 levels. Speed, Range, form and targeting capabilities were all constantly improving. In PSU, the difficulty of the game grew far faster than your abilities could, and even in the end, it never quite caught up all the way, even at max power.

Prime example -- remember Shifta, Deband, Jellen, Zalure and Anti/Reverser? Yeah. Remember how in PSU, each of them leveled up 50 times but only 4 of those levels were ever useful? Thats what im talking about. Stupidest. Design choice. Ever.


-PSU's system of "only so many targets". Rafoie, a giant magic explosion, hitting only one box on an enemy, when a Grenade or a Sword can hit up to 4 or 6? Wow.

-PSU's system of Flinching, launching and knockdowns, and limitations on targets. Rafoie, a giant magic explosion, can barely stop an enemy from charging me, while a mere SABER animation can knock it on its side? Okay. Whatever.

-Technic Damage Sucking. Rafoie, a giant magic explosion, is outdamaged by a SABER photon art? Okay i get it, you just really dont like magic.

[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]
-PSU's focus on Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, one of the worst screwups, IMO. This little gimmick is almost ALWAYS the Magician's forte, because it almost always does the most damage and magicians are almost always element benders. So now you give it to the Rangers AND Hunters, and simply make it overly complicated for the Forces, making them work harder for less profit? Come onnnnnn....

You see, PSO cleverly overlooked this issue. In PSO, each enemy was classified as "Native", "Altered Beast", "Machine" or "Dark". And to top it off, taking advantage of this was only something extra -- you never HAD to do it, it just occasionally made you life alot easier (and more fun!). Elemental Weakness was something that only forces (and occasionally rangers) had to ever worry about. Forces were the only class who really benefited much from exploiting elements. Because of this, they usually had damage that hovered above that of the other classes.

In PSU, Enemy Attribute and Elemental Attribute were made one in the same, the BIGGEST design screwup and most damaging blow to the Forces. For one, it made their job a helluva lot harder since there are double the amount of elements in this game. Couple that with the new Prefix system which adds more technics to each element, and the shitty leveling system which keeps your spells useless unless you spend hours spamming them....and, yeah you do the math. Two, it gave the same ability to the Hunters and Rangers, which usually do a much better job at exploiting it than you, which ends up making you weaker than them. And finally, since the entire game was built around this little gimmick, it's naturally weighted heavier than any other attribute in the game. (Elemental Resistance on armor made DFP almost useless) But, for some reason, Force's damage just never reflected this.

Couple alll this shit with the fact that the different Technic Elements were never made equal, and you have one shitstorm of a shitty class on your hands. Run into a formidable Earth, Fire, Dark, or Light enemy in this game, and you are absolutely fucked. If Dambarta, Diga, Nosdiga or Foie doesn't damage it, you are rightly screwed with a 10 inch pole, and there arent many ways around it. Hunters and Rangers dont have this issue -- they still have weapons that do damage outside the elemental classes. But Forces -- your technics are nothing BUT elemental damage, and about 32 out of your 36 technics are absolute garbage. Giant, nimble, multitarget enemies are going to screw your asshole all night long, and your only real salvation are your only useful spells...which more often than not arent the element you should be using.

-PSU's Weapon Binding system. Oh, Lord. Instead of there being only 3 spells for each element there are now 4, and instead of there only being 3 elements to have spells for, there are now 6. This is alot of work for your Action Pallete weapons (which all have varied stats and binded technics, so you cant just stick with one like in PSO). So if youre playing a stage with 3 different element types, thats already 12 spells you'll be obliged to use.


Bigger issue comes into play when you realize that instead of your CHARACTER holding all the damage potential for Technics, it's your WEAPON that's doing the real damage here. Oh, fuck. So, not only do I have to carefully choose which spells im going to use, I have to choose which spells are going to suck more than the others, too? God Dammit. So, now you're running around a stage with that one weapon thats super powerful, and a whole bunch of Scrub weapons in comparison that really just don't hold up very well. Yeah, tons of issues with why this system crippled forces, so im just gonna finish it here.


[/spoiler-box]

Im tired of typing this crap now. But really, all of this could have been avoided if they had used just a little bit of hindsight.

Chaobo99
Nov 26, 2010, 08:33 PM
Yea, Forces are supposed to be a class played by players that are supposedly more "advanced". However, techers in PSU, in retrospect, never really ran out of PP, never had to worry about running out of magic to cast, and each element had the same exact copy of itself in another element.

Made them way easy and more grind. I didn't care though, leveling my spells for eye candy was...fun.. lol, however as the above spoiler says, it's kinda dissappointing to take pride in lvling spells only to have them change/improve every 10 levels. The change should be more evident in smaller increments. Every 3-4 levels would be nice.

Also, in all(most) games, the biggest advantage a mage(in our case, techers) have is their ELEMENTAL DPS. But giving it to the hunters and rangers as they did in PSU stole what forces did best. I don't mind elemental dmg coming from hunters/rangers but 50% weapons and large elemental %s on bullets just killed it for us, especially when those mods add up with their PA mods as well. I don't mind status effect bullets either, but giving a rifle 48% elemental bonus on top of it is overkill. Especially when we forces have only 12% max bonus on a rod(outside of other factors). And please, make killer shot less effective. It's a cool bullet PA but it also killed Megid's usefullness D:.

Niered
Nov 26, 2010, 11:08 PM
I am still of the opinion that PSO2 needs to go the renaisance way and do away with mates and trifluids, or vastly change the way they work.

Very few action RPG's are still using the "Potion Spam" system of yesteryear, where your health bar is really just a glorified "Can I survive one hit? Yes, then INSTA-Heal right afterwards!" kind of deal. Either go Diablo 2's route and get rid of potions altogether, or go the Demon's souls route and make it so you actually have an animation for healing, and getting hit during that time fucks you up.

I already mentioned in a previous post that one way of doing away with -fluid spam is to get rid of a TP/PP/MP bar altogether, and give the arts/techniques cooldown timers instead. Or keep the bar, get rid of potions, and give the player TP recharge.

People complain about modern third person shooters and there regenerative health all the time, fact is, Action RPG's and Dungeon Crawlers have coddled their fanbases far longer and far worse with the "TAP H FOR ALL YOUR HEALTH BACK" bullshit. PSO didnt do it first, and at least with PSO you have a fairly small cap of 10 per unit, but still, its a broken, dated system.

Kent
Nov 26, 2010, 11:37 PM
Elements on weapons is a terrible idea, with how it was implemented in PSU (and really, just another example of how many things in PSU were designed critically wrong) - not necessarily because of the fact that they were elemental (which, exploiting elements with weapons is okay on occasion - though I think making it more predominantly the domain of techniques would serve to help differentiate them as a measure of combat), but because of how much of an impact elements had on damage output of any given weapon - positive or negative.

Though PSO on the Dreamcast had a similar issue with enemy type percentages giving too much of a bonus in damage because back then, type bonus percentages affected total ATP - in the GameCube/Xbox releases and farther, it only affected the ATP added by the weapon itself. Thusly is how 0/0/60/60/60 Charge Vulcans became stupidly-overpowered.

I wouldn't mind seeing enemy type attributes reappear on weapons themselves, but elements should really be a very separate thing.

Though, I do think it should be possible for weapons to have special effects - but perhaps dealing elemental damage up-front should be ruled out entirely. Inflicting their associated status effects though (shock, freeze, and burn if it gets implemented) could also be appropriate, but the weapon itself shouldn't deal a massive chunk of extra damage just because the enemy is weak to that element - leave that to the techniques.

Of course, that's not to say that techniques couldn't stand to also have a better chance of inflicting said elemental status effects, or be able to inflict more potent versions of them - after all, they are coming from a much more limited resource.

Naturally, techniques should improve every level they go up (though using disks for the associated technique - none of this grinding crap), including such things like range, damage, number of targets, but the potency and/or chances of their associated status effects happening should naturally increase, as well.

Allison_W
Nov 26, 2010, 11:41 PM
[ . . . ] Either go Diablo 2's route and get rid of potions altogether [ . . . ]

This is just nitpicking, but Diablo II still had potions. You're probably talking about Diablo III, but Diablo III is still planned to have potions: they're just much more restricted in availability than they once were, more for emergency healing than something you're supposed to guzzle like Mountain Dew.

Kent
Nov 27, 2010, 12:41 AM
This is just nitpicking, but Diablo II still had potions. You're probably talking about Diablo III, but Diablo III is still planned to have potions: they're just much more restricted in availability than they once were, more for emergency healing than something you're supposed to guzzle like Mountain Dew.
You know, on this subject, I think it should be said that PSO's system of item use was far from broken if you look at it within the context of boss battles and challenge mode. In those, you really are limited on resources (limited to what you can take in for the former, limited to what you start with and find for the whole team in the latter), and such a mechanic actually does work.

The problem comes in with the general gameplay mode, where people can almost freely teleport to and from places in dungeons, with the use of telepipes and ryuker. Perhaps a solution could lie within discouraging repeated teleportation in some manner - either by making the shops have a limited supply that only restocks at timed intervals (to encourage people to make their supplies last until the next shop restock, or perhaps the shops won't stock full stacks at once - but I fully understand what sort of ramifications a system like this could have) or by doing something like making an accumulating rate of experience/loot gains that only progresses forward when players are in the field, or perhaps even making it flat-out reset when players go back to town.

In fact, I think that second one would probably work out very well - by making players get better chances at receiving better loot from enemies and boxes as a reward for not teleporting back to town to restock, and forcing them to make due with what they're able to find and scavenge from enemies and boxes and whatnot, you enforce the risk vs. reward scenario of encouraging players to really stick to it when they get to any particular excursion. As an example, it could be something like... For each player, whenever they receive credit for a kill (which is to say, you're down in the same area as the enemy when it dies, whether or not you actually managed to harm it), the drop rate increases by 1 (so for each kill while you have a full party down there, your luck with drops increases by a total of four). However, if someone pipes back to town for any reason (releasing on death, taking a telepipe, etc.), their contribution to the overall drop rate is removed from the board.

So if you kill 100 enemies, bringing your drop rate bonus to +400, and one person goes back to town for whatever reason, your team's drop rate bonus is reduced to +300. Naturally, you probably want as high of a drop rate bonus as you can get by the time you get to the boss (so as to get the best chances of highest-quality-possible loot from the boss and whatever boxes may appear afterward). I think a system like that may end up working out well, especially if it really encourages teamwork among players, emphasizing survival skills and teamplay... But the only problem is designing such a system so as to prevent people from universally copping elitist attitudes about the game.

As for addressing the issue of items in general by supplanting chuggables... I had an interesting idea about this that would probably work as an addendum, giving the best of what's intended by the original system of having consumable items, and the new system of supplanting them.

[spoiler-box]That is, there are instant-healing pickups that drop from enemies or boxes at times. However, each player also gets a single tank that will store a charge. This charge is filled up by picking up these instant-health items on the field while their health is full - obviouly, the point of this charge is to give players a reserve of health they can use to heal themselves in an emergency, with a full tank healing a 100% of their HP. Naturally, players may be able to earn (key word there) upgrades to this, allowing their tanks to keep a higher capacity, allowing for a small amount of leftover after a full heal (I'd say it'd probably cap out at 120% to 130% of max HP).

Additionally, characters would also get one for TP (though perhaps, as a balancing measure, this may have to be capped at less than a full TP meter, depending on how valuable of a resource this actually is) - Androids, being characters that don't have TP, may instead get one for their PB meter, though the mechanics for such a thing may have to be handled differently (for example, they gain 25% of their PB gain from normal measures added into the tank - including, if they exist, instant-PB-gain pickups, like there may be for health and TP).[/spoiler-box]

RemiusTA
Nov 27, 2010, 12:50 AM
There really doesn't need to BE a reason to discourage going to and from the bank to get stuff. If there was a penalty for doing that, Forces in PSO would have been severely screwed when it came to having fun with the game. Going back and forward in PSO was a really good thing, since you were constantly getting items that needed a Tekker, selling stuff, or putting stuff in the bank. Ect ect. It really was a neat mechanic to the game IMO.


Healing is something that is going to end up staying in videogames, because people no longer have the tolerance of just getting killed. Besides, in a game like PSO, taking damage is inevitable. I think overall, PSP2 does a good job of handling that. The only issue is, wayyy too many mates drop on the stage in that game.

Niered
Nov 27, 2010, 02:28 AM
This is just nitpicking, but Diablo II still had potions. You're probably talking about Diablo III, but Diablo III is still planned to have potions: they're just much more restricted in availability than they once were, more for emergency healing than something you're supposed to guzzle like Mountain Dew.

Derp, yes, meant 3, blame it on lack of sleep.

Kent
Nov 27, 2010, 02:46 AM
If there was a penalty for doing that, Forces in PSO would have been severely screwed when it came to having fun with the game.
Challenge mode disproves this statement.

Niered
Nov 27, 2010, 03:54 AM
Healing is something that is going to end up staying in videogames, because people no longer have the tolerance of just getting killed. Besides, in a game like PSO, taking damage is inevitable. I think overall, PSP2 does a good job of handling that. The only issue is, wayyy too many mates drop on the stage in that game.

I'm not saying healing should be done away with, I'm saying that like it or not, the fact is, when I can use a Trimate to heal from any kind of damage in either in PSO or PSU instantly, and the chances of a boss fight actually using all of them up are slim to none, then we have a broken system.

Even if all you did was add a "consume" animation it would add a layer of depth to the game. And resta is a big problem as well, since Forces can spam it because TP/PP isnt much of a problem when you carrry around 10 Trifluids/Charges. If combat in PSO2 was more deliberate (not slow, or clunky mind you, but deliberate, where you actually have to think on the fly in terms of how you should deal with different situations) then I'd be happier with it. I don't really care what they do to get to that point, I'm just throwing out ideas.

lostinseganet
Nov 27, 2010, 07:00 PM
I loved being a melee force. I want a block button, a jump button, a strafe ability, a parry, and a first person view to see and shoot plz. Magic spells should be like in pso. I would also like a mag that can change like a digimon. Maybe forces could henshin into magical school girls, and boys gaining power for like 3-5 mins. Of course all of this wouold be affected by my stats as a force, but I want at least the ability to do it. Even if my character sucks at it. For the most powerful spells maybe we would have to draw the symbol with the mouse or dpad. If you want that spell draw fast! or maybe we could say commands into the MIC.

The forces should have a tp bar like in pso. All spells and abilities can be leveled up increasing their effectiveness and the length they can be constantly used.

Spells:all offensive spells cause damage

offensive
Earth: attacks that can make people fall and stay on the ground for extra hits opportunities.
Fire: attacks cause burning for additional damage excessive burning decreases ability to resist other attacks
Wind: slice attacks cause player to lose control of camera
Water: freeze character and slows character down. should freeze lose abilty to move and defend have to wiggle to get free faster. Player could attack the ice and waste tp to get out faster. The more you get hit with ice the more you are able to be frozen.
Electricity: prevents character from using attacks causes irrational behaviors. Should made it easier to knock a player down and slow a players ability to move attack and defend
Heart: Summons monsters"mags could be like digimon". should make you give random items to friend or foe.
Grants is just holy butt wooping it makes you lose hp and decreases your ability to see friends and foes.
-Megid should kill you / posien your items and spells/ make you a plague to your allies and give them stat affects and lose hp from just being around you. Or you just die right on the spot.

Offensive Status effects:
Def down: def is decreased on the characters stats. Character can be dizzied easier. if stats become lower than the requirements needed to use that item then item becomes unequipped
Attack down: Attack is decreased and speed of ability to attack becomes decreased. Stats will be negatively affected
Stamnia Down: strain could break weapons making them lose effectiveness and need repairs same could happen to spells. Characters will be more prone to being knocked down for additional offensive opportunities.

Spells: Defensive
Def up:
Attack up:
Stamina up:

Spells: Support
Heal:
Constant Heal:
Cure status effects:
Revive:


Also forces could have a Magical School girl ability which allows them to change into forms that excel in a specific type of magic other types of magic would not be increased in effectiveness.

Allison_W
Nov 27, 2010, 07:17 PM
Maybe forces could henshin into magical school girls, and boys gaining power for like 3-5 mins.

:no:

I suddenly find myself wishing I had access to the :gonk: emote here.

lostinseganet
Nov 27, 2010, 07:35 PM
:no:

I suddenly find myself wishing I had access to the :gonk: emote here.Ya...One for each type of power.

RemiusTA
Nov 28, 2010, 12:10 AM
Challenge mode disproves this statement.

Challenge mode...is something completely and totally different than regular mode.

So, you're telling me running around with no TP to use any techniques and wacking enemies for 3 damage while they wack you for 60% of your health until you cant use Resta/mates anymore was FUN? Oh yeah sure unless you were a Newman, in which case you could go stand still in an empty area for 15 minutes while your TP regained every 5 or so seconds...

Yeah. Unless you were the really conservative one who just hit every enemy once or twice and let the others finish them off, you were gonna run out of TP. And with no other partners to share their Fluids with you...that usually results in you being up the creek without a paddle. And a hole in your boat.

DreXxiN
Nov 28, 2010, 02:03 AM
Challenge mode...is something completely and totally different than regular mode.

So, you're telling me running around with no TP to use any techniques and wacking enemies for 3 damage while they wack you for 60% of your health until you cant use Resta/mates anymore was FUN? Oh yeah sure unless you were a Newman, in which case you could go stand still in an empty area for 15 minutes while your TP regained every 5 or so seconds...

Yeah. Unless you were the really conservative one who just hit every enemy once or twice and let the others finish them off, you were gonna run out of TP. And with no other partners to share their Fluids with you...that usually results in you being up the creek without a paddle. And a hole in your boat.

They could make it like BB where you can get additional gear that helps cut TP costs, making using a Trifluid very optional.

Of course, that brings us back to the issue of FO's once again being too gear dependant. ._.

Kent
Nov 28, 2010, 03:50 AM
Challenge mode...is something completely and totally different than regular mode.
It's good you noticed this, because it's actually part of my point (that is, that such a system of limiting resources does actually work, and is regarded by many players as being some of the most fun they've actually had in PSO).

So, you're telling me running around with no TP to use any techniques and wacking enemies for 3 damage while they wack you for 60% of your health until you cant use Resta/mates anymore was FUN? Oh yeah sure unless you were a Newman, in which case you could go stand still in an empty area for 15 minutes while your TP regained every 5 or so seconds...
No, I'm saying that understanding a simple concept called "resource management" adds a layer of depth to the game that turns it from a facerolling grind fest into something where intelligence, tactical considerations and context-sensitivty end up being the best advantage you, as a player, can actually have.

As opposed to your powers being limited only by how many fluids you can buy with your money (since transportation to and from the shops is free, and then there's the whole thing about how money is almost worthless in the game, just because of how easy it is to get).

Let's not forget the whole part about, you know, learning not to stand in front of enemies while they're attacking. That sort of thing is generally helpful when trying to not die.

I played a FOmar throughout Challenge Mode. If you're playing a caster-type character in basically any RPG ever, and don't understand simple resource management, you're pretty much doing it wrong. You're making it sound like firing no less than three Foies at every Booma in the Forest is the proper procedure for working as a team. Naturally, having the superior melee capability among the Force characters gave me a more unique advantage among them, but that's simply part of the character archetype.

A good player will know how appropriate the application of techniques is to any given situation. As long as you know any supportive techniques at all that are past level 3, you aren't merely a nuker in a group if you're a Force (even a pure-caster kind, like a FOnewm or FOnewearl) - this is just like with Hunters and Rangers, who are expected to know how their class functions best as both a team and solo. If you're on a team, you're no longer looking out for yourself, but also your allies - and that's paramount here.

Yeah. Unless you were the really conservative one who just hit every enemy once or twice and let the others finish them off, you were gonna run out of TP. And with no other partners to share their Fluids with you...that usually results in you being up the creek without a paddle. And a hole in your boat.
Maybe if you were terrible at the game, yeah.

Being that I actually had any experience at all with the game and knew how best to apply my character to most given situations, I was able to remain very effective in Challenge Mode, while still understanding the concepts of TP reservation and how best to aid the group without dumbassedly blowing all of my TP by spamming techniques everywhere (by the way, don't do that in Challenge Mode).

Of course, that's kind of my whole point here: Challenge mode made a lot of strides in very good game design, that could be ported over (in an appropriate manner) to the "regular" gameplay we saw in PSO. Things like encouraging that you actually think during combat and try not to run in and look at every fight as a slugfest - trying to dodge, emphasizing tactics and by doing so, we end up rewarding players who play not just skillfully, but mindfully, instead of constantly flinging lightning bolts from one hand and Doing the Dew with the other.

lostinseganet
Dec 30, 2010, 04:29 PM
I agree resource management is very important to a force, and by haveing so many options to fight you have to know how to fight..ya know. :)

Darki
Dec 30, 2010, 07:34 PM
Well, there's something that I've been thinking about but never seen discussed here so I'll give it a try.

One thing that I "liked" from PSU (and specially PSPo2) is the fact that combat is turning more dynamic and "flashy". I haven't played PSO since like a year before PSU was released (or more) so my memory might be vague about this, but I remember how combat in PSO was slow, boring and repetitive in any case, call it melee, guns or technics. Maybe not done perfectly in PSU, but photon arts linked to melee weapons, and later charged shots, gave melee and guns a very nice fighting style, and well, maybe we don't defy gravity in reality when fighting, but we aren't either a totem pole rooting on the ground without moving.

But that change never hit Forces.

I understand that as "magic", technics require concentration and whatever you want, but from PSO to PSU the only difference between casing Foie is that we link techs to the wand. I've played games like Cabal Online that, even getting me bored after 3 hours only, I saw something that I loved, and was Wizards. There, a Wizard casts spells like if it was a melee combo, each spell being more powerful, and at the end, the Wizard is even levitating from the power accumulated, only to end the "combo" with a freaking explosive effect that makes you drop your jaw.

Of course, PSO is a whole different concept, but I'd really love to see more "action" when casting spells. Why can't a Force throw three Foies in a row while doing an acrobatics over a monster, when that force probably knows the spell so well that he can cast it even sleeping?

My two cents are, that maybe it would be nice to see tech combos more dynamic. There could be, for example, premade combos: Rafoie, then foie-foie-foie, then Gifoie, and the combo wouldn't be just a succesion of techs but also a premade animation where the techer shoots the fireballs while "dancing" between the fire spirals from Rafoie, ending in a fire blast when the twister banishes, and increasing the power of each attack further in the combo, maybe getting even a special effect.

... maybe I just went too much out of my mind, but if something like this was made well, it would make the game (for me) really freaking awesome.

TheBlackMage
Dec 30, 2010, 09:56 PM
+1 To everything Darki said lol.

In my opinion linking techs was a horrible move, I miss wielding a double saber and casting techs at the same time. I can't even begin to recall how many times I would just run in a room on my HUnewearl, cast gifoie a couple times and start melee combat with the fireballs flying all around the enemy and I.

On a side note I hope PSO2 brings back our old spells, I miss my gifoie and epic screen filling zonde, not to mention the Sith Lighting -er gizonde attack and our nukes known as rafoie. While their at it they should bring back the old special weapon effects and weapons whose special effect could cast a technique. Everyone expects a bullet to come out of a gun, but not a lot of people expect to see you pull the trigger and lighting bolts fall from the heavens. And no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Tetsaru
Dec 31, 2010, 12:14 AM
Here's how I'd do it:


Imo, spellcaster-type classes in RPG's are meant to support party members from a distance by using utility/AoE moves that do something unique. Offensive spells capitalize on elemental or type weaknesses, and either do a ton of damage at once, damage over time, or minor damage plus a powerful status effect, etc. Support spells are basically healing, buffs/debuffs... pretty straightforward.


New spells would have to be found like rare weapons (or bought, but ONLY for basic starter-level ones), but would then level up with continued usage. I don't think that higher level versions should be found first in order to upgrade them (that's why you get new weapons), but there would be significant changes between EACH level (depending on the cap) so that there's no bullshit about them only doing something cool every 10 levels like in PSU. The really powerful/strong spells would require going through quests to earn, or item-hunting from certain enemies. Hunters and Rangers would do the same thing for their own Photon Arts/special moves.


I feel that all races/classes, including CASTs, should be able to use spells/Techs, but each would have an appropriate level cap. Certain spells, or abilities that spells gain, would thus be exclusive to certain races/classes to prevent imbalance (for example, CASTs could not use spells that are not dependent on the TP stat, such as CAST Acrotechers being able to use buffs at the same efficiency as Newman Acrotechers in PSU); however, certain quests, most likely at near-endgame-level, could be implemented to extend these caps or gain access to new abilities if successfully completed.


The PP stat should be a character stat like in PSO, not a weapon stat like in PSU. Force characters would thus have a significantly higher PP stat than Hunters or Rangers, and Newmans would have more PP than Humans, then Beasts, then CASTs, if those jobs/classes/races are implemented again.


Spells should be usable WITHOUT a rod, wand, cane, or similar weapon, like in PSO, but certain weapons (not necessarily limited to Force weapons) should provide bonuses towards certain types of spells, encouraging their use (for example, both an average wand and the Elysion saber from PSO could grant a 10% damage bonus to offensive spells).


I would prefer to see spells have the uniqueness they did in PSO, instead of each spell being set to a certain "category" like in PSU (for example, Gizonde would be a "chain lightning" spell instead of surrounding you by default for being a Gi- spell).


Spells, along with Photon Arts (or whatever Hunter/Ranger moves will be called) can be customized to a variety of button combinations if used with a controller, or set to macros or number keys if used with a computer keyboard, to avoid having to access menus to cast them, or not being able to use them without switching them out of a pallette or bound weapon, etc.


Certain spells and Photon Arts can be channeled, charged up, or continuously cast for various effects, at the cost of more PP consumption or longer cooldowns (similar to PSU's Dam- techs, or PSO's Gifoie).


All spells and Photon Arts would have a cooldown timer to avoid being spammed (or graphical overload, as was the case in PSU), but certain armor units or traits could be equipped or learned to reduce these cooldowns. The power of these spells would be adjusted accordingly. For example, Rafoie cast by a Force would do, on average, the same amount of damage in one blast to a single enemy as the sum of damage dealt to a single enemy by 3 basic saber combos done by a Hunter, and would have a cooldown approximately equal to the time it takes to do 3 basic saber combos for a Hunter. The difference would be that, Rafoie would have to be aimed to target multiple enemies to do more damage, could take advantage of elemental weaknesses in enemies, and could also be charged up beforehand to deal additional damage proportionate to the amount of time spent charging, up to a certain cap.


Some spells can be cast while moving, while others would require standing still to avoid being interrupted. Again, certain armor units or abilities could be used to affect these mechanics.


Regardless of race or class, characters could still customize their characters to a certain extent upon leveling up to make them more suited towards different types of combat, to a certain extent. For example, a HUnewearl is good at both melee combat and spells, but one could be customized more towards spell damage, and another could be customized more towards melee damage. Yet another one could also be customized to deal extra damage with guns as well.


The Native/Altered Beast/Machine/Dark enemy classification can also be used in conjunction with each one having elemental types. I liked having the elements from PSU (Neutral, Fire, Ice, Lightning, Ground, Light, and Dark), although I thought it stupid that the only offensive Light Tech in PSU was Regrants, which was horrible. Imo, Hunters would be more suited towards taking advantage of the enemy types, Forces could capitalize on elemental types, and Rangers would have the benefit of having both to make up for lower base damage and possibly more skill-oriented/aiming involved with their attacks. Thus, it would be rare for a Hunter to have a sword that dealt ice damage, or a Force to have a rod that dealt extra damage to Machine-type enemies, but Rangers could use different kinds of bullets/ammo for their guns depending on what they were fighting, making each class a bit more unique.


Certain buffs or debuffs would have to be channeled (continuously cast while standing still or slowly moving, like a sort of ritual dance) to maintain their effects, but would have a much larger effect radius, short cooldowns, and costs that slowly drain PP (or possibly HP, if you wanted to get really crazy with it), rather than just popping something like Shifta once and suddenly everyone gets stronger. This would allow for more skill-based support, and could also differentiate between how a buff/debuff would be when cast from a Force instead of from a Hunter or Ranger; for example, a Hunter or Ranger could cast a Lv. 10 Shifta and get a 10% boost to ATP, or a Force could channel the same Lv. 10 Shifta (perhaps by holding the appropriate button combination down instead of tapping it), and everyone would get a 25% ATP boost instead, but only while the Force was channeling it. Certain weapons/items like a "Shaman's Staff" or "War Drum" could also have a built-in ability to enhance such effects even further when equipped while channeling such spells.



I may think of some more ideas later...

Darki
Jan 1, 2011, 02:07 PM
Well, there is too much there to comment but there are three things that I'd like to point.

The first thing, you said that "everybody should be able to use TECHs on a certain extent". I don't really agree with this, although I understand how in PSO any fleshy character could use TECHs, but I'm not sure of this as you said that even CASTs should use them. in PSO, the ability of using Resta made some kind of tactical difference between any fleshy and a robot. In PSU, this difference was made between classes, and in PSO between races. I wouldn't like this difference to be completely removed.

Another thing, is the fact that it seems that, save for Hamsterforces, Force = nurse in PSO. I loved the "concept" (sadly, not the real gameplay) that tried to make a difference, for example, having Wartechers as only offensive techers, Guntechers as supporters, and Fortetechers as a combo of both (but as I said, this was nevwer made clear and in the end, they crappy patched the classes to make everybody do support again). So, I would like to see techers that actually couldn't use supportive techs, or using them in so low level that would only work as some self-aid and not much more.

Finally, from the part you talked about HUnewearls... There's something I never liked in PSO and was the fixed race/type/gender issue. I don't like that for making a battlemage, or some specific build, I MUST use a HUnewearl, for example. Something I loved about PSU was that I could make any class/race/gender combination without too much trouble. I prefer that to PSO system.

TheBlackMage
Jan 2, 2011, 02:34 PM
Finally, from the part you talked about HUnewearls... There's something I never liked in PSO and was the fixed race/type/gender issue. I don't like that for making a battlemage, or some specific build, I MUST use a HUnewearl, for example. Something I loved about PSU was that I could make any class/race/gender combination without too much trouble. I prefer that to PSO system.

Personally I prefered the "forced race/gender" class system that PSO had. Its was simple and you would know who did what instantly when you joined a party or even just looking at people in the lobby. If there was a FOnewearl you know they would be a caster. If it was a RAcaseal you know they'd be doing ranged. It reminds me of the old Gauntlet games. Everyone picked a class, you know what their role is and you go beat the crap out of a dungeon. With is pretty much what PSO was like. In PSU however you can't tell what class someone is at a first glance. Also I've met people in PSU/PSP2 who do the exact opposite of their class. I've met rangers who melee all the time and forces who attack with single weapons rarely casting and pretending to be a vanguard. We didn't have that much of an issue in PSO as badly as I see it happening in PSU/PSP2.

PSO is a dungeon crawler 1st and an MMO second. Part of the reason I think that people have different views on how it should be is that we have a mixed community of the more modernized MMO kinda style that PSU brought of character creation, diverse class system, and freedom to pretty much do what you want. Versus the classic dungeon hack and slash RPG that PSO was where you do what your class is designed to do.

I think however despite how much some people want freedom of choice when it comes to race, gender, and class I think PSO2 will have PSO's style of pick a predetermined class and go. Why because this is PSO. If we keep trying to change it its not going to be like PSO and it'll wind up being more like PSU. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing or anything. I'm just saying that lets let PSO be PSO and PSU be PSU. Both have their strong and weakpoints and trying to combine 2 different things usually ends in disaster for most games.

Kent
Jan 2, 2011, 05:03 PM
PSO is no part MMO, by virtue of the fact that there's nothing about the game that resembles massive multiplayer. I realize some people want an MMO, but I know I've explained in several places before, that PSO would pretty much not work if they tried to make it massively-multiplayer to any real degree.

The game won people over with being simply an online multiplayer dungeon-crawler, and to actually be a sequel to it, I would think the best move would be to embrace what made the original so great and fondly-remembered by its fanbase first, and then add improvements that are specifically in-line with that. Obviously, this is not saying that PSO's formula was perfect by any means, but making an actual sequel to something is very different from just making a brand new game that may as well be unrelated. This is how PSU happened, which is a very different kind of experience from what PSO was (which was the core reason as to why many PSO fans didn't really enjoy it that much).

Really, there's nothing at all wrong with the class/race system that PSO had going on - particularly from a functional perspective. It made for a dynamic that covered all of its angles, without the need for some extraneous sub-class system or some unnecessary number of extra races thrown on top of it for the sake of adding more stuff.

BIG OLAF
Jan 2, 2011, 05:26 PM
Personally I preferred the "forced race/gender" class system that PSO had.

Honestly, I'd be fine with this as long as it doesn't force you to stay in one costume the entire game. Character customization and clothing options, please. This is 2011, not 2000. The technology is indeed available.

As for on-topic discussion, doesn't really matter to me. I never play spell-flingers in any type of RPG.

Darki
Jan 2, 2011, 05:55 PM
Well, that's a matter of opinion, so I just stated mine. PSO was many things, not only the character's class/race/gender selection. The reason TheBlackMage stated, I don't see it too right the way you say it.

Class selection had nothing to do with you knowing the roles. You knew that simply by looking at the character just because characters had a fixed costume and you could tell what was a HUnewearl from a FOnewearl with a fast look, not because class was fixed to race/gender. In the same matter, in PSU you could easily tell the "normal" role a char could get just by seeing the race/gender and looking at his/her class at the top of their heads, and in any case, I don't believe that's a strong enough reason to state that PSO fixed class/race/gender was better.

As Big Olaf said, we also want to be able to change our character's apperance. The way you put it would imply that we would need AGAIN to keep our characters with a fixed costume, because if in PSO we would have been able to change outfits you wouldn't tell who was a FOmar from a HUmar on a single sight.

On the other hand, I'm not saying either that PSU classing system was perfect, I believe PSU has far too many classes than neccesary, I'd say put basic classes, hybrid classes and maybe two full hybrids (Protranser and Vanguard), but that's not my point here. Is true that PSO wasn't a MMORPG, but was an online multiplayer game in which we played with our own avatar in the PS world, so I don't think cutting off the options on character selections is a good move. As I said, PSO is NOT character selection only, and the fact that PSO 2 will be a sequel of PSO doesn't mean that it can't benefit from the achievements and features that PSU excelled in.

Many games are real "direct" sequels and don't share the same gameplay, people here sound as if PSO 2 should be almost the same in everything, not only storyline, to be a sequel when that is not true. Is like saying that Metroid Prime Trilogy shouldn't be considered part of Metroid series because they're not 2D crap shooters like the NES ones, is that logic? Not too much, from my point of view. I didn't dislike PSO, but I DO NOT wanna play a game that is just PSO with better graphics and minor changes, for that they don't need to make a whole new game, just make a new episode and don't close the PSO servers. I wanna play a NEW game, that is a continuation to PSO storyline but will take the best of ALL PS series game mechanics and make them even better. That IS a sequel.

Anyways, we all know that we're just sharing our opinions, so that's mine. I'll play whatever they give me, but I'll probably be much happier if they make classing system more alike to PSU (without all the flaws) and not like PSO. Whoever wants PSO system, pray for it like me and one of us will "cry" when the time comes, lol.

TheBlackMage
Jan 2, 2011, 10:50 PM
PSO is no part MMO, by virtue of the fact that there's nothing about the game that resembles massive multiplayer. I realize some people want an MMO, but I know I've explained in several places before, that PSO would pretty much not work if they tried to make it massively-multiplayer to any real degree.

My mistake I used the wrong terminology. OM (Online Multiplayer) would be a better way to describe it. While I am curious as to how a real Phantasy Star MMO would would work I do agree that the game should not be changed and it would be better left off as it is.


Honestly, I'd be fine with this as long as it doesn't force you to stay in one costume the entire game. Character customization and clothing options, please. This is 2011, not 2000. The technology is indeed available.

The game had some customization. Granted it wasn't the best but it worked. Times have changed like you've said so while it did work back then to keep up with the rest of today's games a more PSU like character customization will most likely be used. Also I heavily agree with you on the clothes issue that definitely needs to be addressed. (See what I did there? :P)


Well, that's a matter of opinion, so I just stated mine. PSO was many things, not only the character's class/race/gender selection.

Agreed. I'm not saying your wrong or anything, I''m just voicing my opinion on which of the two games I thought was better.


Class selection had nothing to do with you knowing the roles. You knew that simply by looking at the character just because characters had a fixed costume and you could tell what was a HUnewearl from a FOnewearl with a fast look, not because class was fixed to race/gender. In the same matter, in PSU you could easily tell the "normal" role a char could get just by seeing the race/gender and looking at his/her class at the top of their heads, and in any case, I don't believe that's a strong enough reason to state that PSO fixed class/race/gender was better.

That was just a personal petty annoyance I have with PSU. I just liked the simplistic system PSO had it was quick and classy. It just wasn't the same in PSU, heck we have FOcasts and FOcaseasls. You may have a basic idea when you see someone but sometimes the unexpected occurs. Do I think PSO had a better class, race, and gender feature? No. Do I prefer PSO's class feature more than PSU's? Yes. Note I never said it was better. I just liked PSO's system more than PSU's. None of us can really claim what's really "better" we all just have different opinions.


As Big Olaf said, we also want to be able to change our character's apperance. The way you put it would imply that we would need AGAIN to keep our characters with a fixed costume, because if in PSO we would have been able to change outfits you wouldn't tell who was a FOmar from a HUmar on a single sight.

Not necessarily. All the different classes can have multiple outfits that are only be able to be worn by that class. PSO did have a 1 outfit policy going on with the only real choices being a difference in the colors. A possible solution is that we have class specific costumes. For example: a FOmarl is able to wear a wedding dress and a nurse outfit. Now lets say these are 2 outfits among many. The point being is that only the FOmarl class can wear a wedding dress and a nurse outfit. I know in PSP2 we have some outfits that are restricted by race. Apply this principle to PSO's class system. We would have more than 1 outfit (and actual outfits I mean not just color variations lol) but everyone would know who a person is based on the fact that outfits are restricted by class. So therefore we are not required to wear 1 outfit throughout the entire game. Do I think this little idea of mine will happen? No. I'm willing to bet that PSO will have a character customization feature like PSU if not better. Clothing was probably the biggest (if not one of the biggest) things about PSU. I'm actually hoping we'll have a character customization like PSU's. I like the character customization of PSU, I just don't like the confusion it can sometimes cause.


On the other hand, I'm not saying either that PSU classing system was perfect, I believe PSU has far too many classes than neccesary, I'd say put basic classes, hybrid classes and maybe two full hybrids (Protranser and Vanguard), but that's not my point here. Is true that PSO wasn't a MMORPG, but was an online multiplayer game in which we played with our own avatar in the PS world, so I don't think cutting off the options on character selections is a good move. As I said, PSO is NOT character selection only, and the fact that PSO 2 will be a sequel of PSO doesn't mean that it can't benefit from the achievements and features that PSU excelled in.

Agreed. PSU had way to many classes in my opinion. A basic 3 or even 4 class system (Hunters, Rangers, Forces, Vanguards) is enough. Never did I say that PSO was character selection only. Character selection was just a major part as it is in any game out there. Also I'm not saying it should totally ignore the successes of PSU, I'm just saying that it shouldn't take too much from PSU so that it becomes PSU2 and not PSO2. There are a couple of things I want PSO2 to have from PSU like character and room customization along with ATA = Ranged damage for example.


Many games are real "direct" sequels and don't share the same gameplay, people here sound as if PSO 2 should be almost the same in everything, not only storyline, to be a sequel when that is not true. Is like saying that Metroid Prime Trilogy shouldn't be considered part of Metroid series because they're not 2D crap shooters like the NES ones, is that logic? Not too much, from my point of view. I didn't dislike PSO, but I DO NOT wanna play a game that is just PSO with better graphics and minor changes, for that they don't need to make a whole new game, just make a new episode and don't close the PSO servers. I wanna play a NEW game, that is a continuation to PSO storyline but will take the best of ALL PS series game mechanics and make them even better. That IS a sequel.

I am not one of those people. I too would like to see some change in PSO2 however I don't wanna see too much change that it becomes a different game entirely. Also for your analogy it's part of the series but its not of the same style as the 2D games. In other words Phantasy Star Universe is part of the Phantasy Star series but its not part of the Online series. So while I want them to have some of PSU's things I don't want it to have too much because this is Phantasy Star Online 2. Now if this was a new series say Phantasy Star Galaxy then it wouldn't matter how much of PSU they incorporated into the game.


Anyways, we all know that we're just sharing our opinions, so that's mine. I'll play whatever they give me, but I'll probably be much happier if they make classing system more alike to PSU (without all the flaws) and not like PSO. Whoever wants PSO system, pray for it like me and one of us will "cry" when the time comes, lol.

Exactly.

I'll also play whatever they give me but personally I would probably be much happier if the class system was more like PSO's. We're all just voicing our opinions but we should respect other people's opinions and not try to force our views upon others as to why we think PSO is better than PSU or PSU is better than PSO. So if I seemed like I was trying to force my opinion down upon others my apologies. I was just stating my reasons as to why I like PSO better than PSU I didn't not mean to come off as an arrogant person who doesn't want PSO to have some of PSU's features.

Darki
Jan 3, 2011, 04:27 AM
But I still don't understand what's the deal with the gameplay change. Apart from PSU, it really feels like that people is afraid to bring much change to the game when that wouldn'y be neccesary bad, and that wouldn't make the game not to be a sequel. Correct me if I'm mistaken but "sequel" refers to the argument, as we have sequels to films, books, comics and videogames. In the example I used, Metroid Prime trilogy, yeah, it's its "own" miniseries, as it's a "trilogy" with similar features, but the fact is that the trilogy is a direct sequel of Metroid:Zero Mission and goes before Metroid II.

PSU is not a sequel, or related to PSO because of the sole reason that PSU's storyline doesn't follow PSO's (as far as we know). If PSU happened in the solar system where Ragol was 500 years after Ragol was populated and Ragol was renamed into "Parum", then nobody could deny that PSU would be a "sequel" to PSO. In the same way, PSU: Shadow of the Arkguard is PART of PSU's storymode and canon, even not being in any of the games.

With this I want only to point up, not from my dislike of PSO's gameplay or from my preference of PSU's, but as a gamer who likes to see innovation and "new toys", that PSO 2 will be a sequel to PSO as long as their storylines match, the gameplay won't do too much to it. Because no matter what they do, PS series won't change that much to turn it into a whole new game, hell, I could agree a bit if PSO 2 were a pinball game (lol don't read this SEGAC), but as long as we have our characters wandering around some planets with shiny weapons that pop out their hands and slash big bad monsters, the gameplay won't change enough (in my humble opinion) enough to claim that it won't be a "worthy" sequel.

I won't say that PSO's gameplay was bad, in fact, it was very good in the time the game was released and I have to thank it to hook me to the PS series, but PSO's gameplay does exist already in PSO (duh), we have enjoyed that gameplay already for many years, same with PSU's, having something new is not bad.

TheBlackMage
Jan 3, 2011, 01:29 PM
Change is a double edged sword however it can work for us, take for example the changes in combat between PSP and PSP2. Or against us which is why we have people who didn't like the change from PSO to PSU.

You are right though about the basic concept of the game of how people wander around a planet (or planets) with shiny weapons to bust up baddies with. Both PSO and PSU have this basic principle down. However there are major differences between the 2 games in terms of combat. While I liked PSO's combat system more than PSU's I wouldn't want it to remain unchanged. PSU/PSP2/PSZ had some features that I would love to see in PSO2. First person shooting with ranged weapons for example. Or if they decide to use Photon Arts in PSO2 (which I don't think they will. I think it'll be the basic normal attack, heavy attack, and special attack.) I would love to see charge shots from PSP2 and the technique casting system from PSZ.

So yes I agree with you that we've enjoyed PSO's gameplay system for years and that some changes to the formula would be nice. I would just like some changes to PSO's formula and not a brand new formula since this is a sequel to PSO.

RemiusTA
Jan 3, 2011, 06:41 PM
In essence i think they should keep it the same as PSO.




- Character should hold most of your technic damage. Weapons should only amplify CERTIAN ASPECTS of your technics.




-Forces are NOT combo players, they are nukers. While Hunters use repetitive attacks and Rangers use status effects and other gimmicks, Forces should be raw power.





*** --- Forces are magic users. They should not be dependent on weapons. Their magic ARE their weapons. Not the other way around. They should be just as proficient unarmed as they are armed. Weapons should only make certian parts of them stronger. (Like, speeding up a specific element, or increasing range of a certian spell class.)




Because of this, The SPELLS SHOULD CONSTANTLY BE CHANGING. I.E. if the max Technique level is 30, then the spell should change at LEAST 10-15 times through it's lifespan. They dont have to be HUGE changes, but they DO need to be IMPROVEMENTS. Damage is only half the equation to a good techniqe -- it needs to get faster, get more range, and become easier to use overall. Visual changes and increases to targets are not enough.


In PSO, there was a spell for each situation, but regardless of this, each spell still FUNCTIONED differently than the other, but still stayed useful. In essense, this means give each element a theme, and stick to it. This whole "Gi/Ra/Nos/Whatever" system PSU used does not work.



Lightning doesn't shoot in balls. It arcs from one point to the next. Zonde should NEVER be a Projectile, because lightning simply does not work like that. Likewise, lightning is suited for long range, seeing as...well, it's lightning.




Fire is explosive. It is also very destructive. It is destructive because it spreads and expands. Therefore, it should naturally be very versatile. It should have some range as well as power.




Ice is one of those things you can get creative with. Not only does it have potential to be highly destructive (to organic lifeforms, it's more than destructive, really) but in essence, it's the same as fire. Where Fire is heat, Ice is lack of heat. IMO, Ice should be the most versatile. It can build walls around you, or it can shoot spikes from you. You can mold it into whatever shape you want, or you can make it spread. I think Ice is better suited as the "somewhat great damage but great technical uses" element. Also, it freezes, which adds to its usefulness.




Light should NOT be healing, because it really doesn't have anything to do with healing or goodness. (Dark Falz) What light IS though, is a RARE element, and as such a powerful one. It should really just be raw, focused power. Having tons of light spells kind of takes the implied power away, really. Why? Because there is only one place where Dark enemies reside, and they are the strongest type of enemy in the game. High-Cost/High-Reward was the theme of this element.



Dark, like light, is a rare element (and actually a plot-point of the series). As such, like grants, it should have one specific purpose. In PSO, it was death. (notdamage, DEATH.) There were no Light enemies in PSO aside from the final boss. So, instead of taking function from Grants, they once again gave it the unique function of being an Instant-Kill curse. There is no damage or status effect more effective than flat-out DEATH. High-Cost, High-Reward.




Notice, how even Grants and Megid have their own functions, and as such have their own times to use them and not use them. Their high-cost/high-reward theme makes them rarely used unless you really need to. And thats naturally how it should be, since Light and Dark are usually plot points of the game.


In PSO, the DAMAGE of the spells were not equal, but they way they were used made up for their differences in power. For instance, it is absolutely okay for Fire to be stronger than Ice. However, as a balance, Ice should have some gimmick that sets it apart from fire. If Lightning is the weakest of the 3, then lightning should be the fastest to equal out the DPS.

In PSU, every spell was given an equal function, but they were not in any way made equal. Diga spells were stronger than Foie, but Foie spells were really absolutely no different than Diga spells. It wasn't faster, it wasn't slower. Therefore, that means lightning enemies were easier to kill than ice enemies.

These kind of balances need to be looked over and checked. PSO did a pretty decent job.

Dongra
Jan 3, 2011, 06:47 PM
PSO did a decent job until ultimate. After that point, techs boiled down to Resta, Shifta, Deband, Jellen, Zalure, Anti, Razonde, Gifoie, and Rabarta. The only use of offense techs was to stun enemies so that the real damage dealers could kill things faster.

RemiusTA
Jan 3, 2011, 06:59 PM
Yeah, endgame is usually where the balancing of these types of games start to fall apart.

Forces, being raw damage, are not easy to balance. Too little and they're useless, too much and they're OP. But the reason they started to suck in Ultimate was because although they didn't have to rely on weapons, the rares they DID find really didn't help them very much at all. The enemies simply outgrew the class, and the class took too much work to catch up. Hunters and Rangers, who grow with their weapons, didnt have this issue.

A certain PServer for PSOBB fixed that issue. It wasn't hard at all. Just give the weapons amplifying properties.

Dongra
Jan 3, 2011, 07:11 PM
I wouldn't necessarily call it a fix since half of the techs are now overpowered and the other half still suck, but it was certainly a step in the right direction

Crystal_Shard
Jan 3, 2011, 10:51 PM
Seeing what people are reporting about balancing for Forces in the demo for Infinity, I think I can rest easy, knowing that PSO2 is probably in the safe hands of Sakai. However, I'll just keep my hopes at an acceptable level - no matter how good the odds, there's always that chance for major disappointment, and I wouldn't want to be turned off PSO2 because of that.

Anyway, some wishes and ideas for the Force class, some of which I've mentioned before...

Please, please, no more tech binding to weapons. I want to cast techs while using a bladed weapon, thank you very much.

I've said before that classes (or races) should get something unique, and preferably balanced so that it all adds up DPS wise. No giving the ultra massive hyper space cannon to the casts while leaving humans and newmans to share photon blasts dammit. Specifically for Forces, I'd like to order some ancient forgotten magic please.

Streamlining of the tech series. I think the PSO techs were the perfect balance, but if we want more types of techs, I would like to see Grants get proper Gi and Na (or Ra) versions, the Megid series as it is changed to the aesthetically similar Gra series from PSIV, and Diga either replaced by Zan (wind) or made into a situational tech (powerful, but hitboxes/range makes it hard to use). Don't give any tech in the series more than three methinks.

Oh and Megid? That tech known as the ultimate tech? Make it actually worth something other than OHKO and usable against bosses, even if it's expensive TP/PP wise. (Multihit, wide area, only shows it's worth at the end of a massive chain, drains all your TP/PP for example)

Regarding the whole debate about whether disks are a better idea or leveling (grinding) techs and PAs is, why not hybrid it? Allow people to level up tech slowly through usage, but at the same time, drop powerful versions via disks as a kind of shortcut. You could even make it so that you can only level up to a certain point, but beyond that you'd need a rare disk or something.

I'm fine with the PSO/PSZ method of casting, but I wouldn't be adverse to having more powerful techs that require cooldowns, charge times, etc as well as needing to stay in one place to continuous cast. My only issue would be that we'd be changing the gameplay for forces if so, and I can't tell if the change is good or bad at this point.

Darki
Jan 4, 2011, 09:10 AM
Well, I understand that TECHs not linked with weapons would be something good as "magic is the weapon". But, there's an issue that I saw somehow "solved" in PSU and is the fact that TECHNIC weapons were used in PSO as melee weapons. I understand that if we consider TECHNICs as attacks that are independent from the weapon used (other than stat modifiers and stuff like that), "magic" weapons become somewhat useless, as I would say, a mere decoration or armor piece with a passive effect and a weak physical attack (that is also weaker as Forces aren't suited for melee). This formula is repeated in many MMORPGs and other games: you equip you magical staff and at the time of going melee (if ever a wizard needs to melee), you just go there and break the staff on someone's head. Right? I don't really like it.

However, I remember one of those games that would make many people lol, called Flyff. This simple, free game that doesn't offer too many features (although is funny to play to spend some time when you're bored of "hardcore MMOs"), had a vision of magic weapons that I haven't seen in many games, and it was that magical weapons had a single, somewhat weak, non-elemental spell permanently linked to them. In the same manner that when you had a knife you could do a melee combo, with a wand in this game you could do a simple "magic combo" that wouldn't cost much, or even be "for free".

So, inspired by this I came with an idea that I though to share here and see what do you think about (because I'm pretty sure SEGA wouldn't ever think about it). What if TECHNIC weapons had each one their set of normal, hard and maybe special combo, but not as melee but as magic attacks? When I think about this, two ideas come to my mind: attack in a similar fashion as Slicers, so the combo would feature a series of homing projectiles that would attack in a long range; or a magical-enhanced "physical" attack, that would look something like as if you were accumulating energy in the weapon and then released it paired with a blow on the monster. These attacks would deal TECH damage, not melee or ranged, and would be non-elemental, or rather, affected by the weapon's base element.

This way, imagine you have a Fire Wane. this weapon would give a bonus of MST to increase any TECHNIC used while having it equiped, and as being a fire Wand, it would also imrpove further the damage of fire-based TECHs, AND, the weapon would also have a combo attack that would be like a "dance" using the Wand to shoot magic bullets to monsters around you, ending the combo with a magical-enhanced hit on the 'nads. This attack would be also fire-based, and it wouldn't cost TP as the attack would cause "minimal" damage compared to "real" TECHs, but it would be a way to do magic damage without using energy, as any other class can do.

All this comes, as I said in the first paragrapth, because I believe something that was done right in PSU was the ussage of TECH weapons as a tool to do "magic", not as a weak melee weapon or a decoration in your hand to cast spells with the other hand.

Kent
Jan 4, 2011, 01:14 PM
The idea of having "wands" that you use to fling really basic magic around isn't nearly as rare as you seem to think. It's actually quite a common thing to see in many RPGs and MMOs nowadays.

Though I think it could perhaps work as an individual weapon type, I don't really see anything wrong with having different weapon types have different advantages. Though we saw a little bit of this in PSO, where Canes, Rods and Wands would have the benefits of boosting your EVP, DFP and MST, respectively, but many rare Force-specific weapons had additional passive bonuses to them, such as boosting the damage of a specific element or a specific level of techniques.

This was later magnified in the PSOBB private server, where certain once-useless Force weapons were given more glaring magnifications to technique damage output. Naturally, it's something you have to be very careful with, because the balance between what your weapons contribute to you and what your techniques are capable of doing is integral to having the hybrid, Battlemage-style characters still being feasible. The notion that one should switch to a specific weapon in order to cast a technique is something that very much needs to be avoided - because if the base level of a spell isn't nearly as potent as the version boosted by a specific equipped weapon, then we've just gone full circle in trying to correct what is easily one of PSU's biggest mistakes.

That's not to say that PSO's pre-private-server Force weapon attributes were a lot - two of the weapons were purely defensive, and the only one that has an offensive use (as a small base attribute boost) confers only a small boost in the first place. Perhaps one solution would be to further separate one's weapon from one's techniques even further, by making the "Force" classification of weapons have more directly defensive capabilities.

That is, aside from some simple defensive stat boosts (be they DFP, EVP or elemental resistances), the way the weapons themselves actually act could be designed in a defensive manner. For instance, Clubs could change from simply being a weak Saber clone, into a weapon type where enemies are flinched more readily and easily stunned. Likewise, something like Rods could be used to push enemies farther away than normal.

The overall idea here being that weapons are still weapons, and there should be no bad weapon types, just different weapon types. Weapon types, much like individual techniques, should be functionally-different from one other in order to provide one's equipment choices with more real tactical implications. Within this line of thought, it'd even be appropriate to open up some of these weapon types to non-Force characters, allowing them to take up defensive-use weapons as well.

An approach like this would address several problems at once: People don't have to change to a Force weapon to cast techniques by necessity, people aren't encouraged to switch to a Force weapon to cast techniques by overwhelming efficacy differences, and the classification of Force weapons is no longer a throwaway category with little in the way of real combat implications.

TheBlackMage
Jan 4, 2011, 01:52 PM
+1
Excellent proposal Kent.

To bad there isn't a submission form to send to Sonic Team about gameplay ideas and mechanics. :/

RemiusTA
Jan 4, 2011, 01:53 PM
lol in FlyFF, only Wands had a magic spell binded to them, and it really was just a chargeable projectile. Staves were wacking objects. It was a great idea until you realized it never got stronger. The only class that used a wand past level 60 was Psykeeper, and they never used the melee attack anyway since their regular moves were way stronger.


About the melee weapons, they were pretty funny to wack people with in PSO. While it may look boring, you simply did not need to use them for that purpose. Since magic was the weapon, any physical weapon was just an amplifier. (usually not, but you get it.) Forces are the only class that could really benefit from going into combat unarmed, since unarmed casting is fastest.

If they go back with that idea, i think they should just really make it known what the items are for. If the weapons dont boost MST, then they should at least adequately boost defense or evasion. If you're using a Battle rod, it should at least have some kind of perk to it; however there is no reason to really make them seem formidable with Melee, because thats not what they're for.

In truth, i really enjoyed that aspect of PSO, where everyone had their own role defined decently enough that on the rare occasion where you could break from it, it made it feel much better. I think thats what weapons should be to the forces. For instance? Give us LOTS more Elysion-type weapons from PSO. MST-based melee weapon types. Like a MST based Double Saber or Mechgun. Not something that takes away from their magic casting, but something that gives them a different angle to attack from, you know? If they go back with Extra Attack, these weapons can all have some kind of magic gimmick to them when you use them. Also, one thing that PSO did (that PSU absolutely did not do) was make sure EVERYONE had a decent amount of varied animations inbetween the classes. Each weapon changed the casting animation for each type of spell. This could also play a part in weapon choice, with variable increases for each spell.

The key here is keeping balance and variety. Forces have ALOT of variety, but that starts to slow down as they begin maxing their spells out. This is where the weapons come in to keep it fresh. They just need to find ways to do this without being useless/OPing the forces.




Oh and Megid? That tech known as the ultimate tech? Make it actually worth something other than OHKO and usable against bosses, even if it's expensive TP/PP wise. (Multihit, wide area, only shows it's worth at the end of a massive chain, drains all your TP/PP for example)

The reason they did that to Megid is because each spell is supposed to be unique from the other. If you notice in PSO, they tried to mix the function of the techniques up between themselves.

Foie - Projectile
Gifoie - Large Radial spread
Rafoie - Remote target AoE
Barta - Long Range Piercing
Gibarta - Wide/long range Piercing
Rabarta - Player AoE
Zonde - Remote single target
Gizonde - Enemy Arcing
Razonde - AoE Enemy Arcing (This actually may work just like rabarta, but i cant tell. The lightning looks variable.)


Grants - Remote target massive damage
Megid - Projectile/Piercing instant kill.


Grants and Megid had massive TP costs for what they did, so people rarely used them. But at Higher Levels, there was no spell that was more effective than Megid at killing, seeing as Megid potentially does thousands of damage since it kills in a single hit. At higher levels it was crazy fast, and with a Fonewearl or (forgot the weapon) it pierced as well, increasing the chances and destructive power of the attack.


The uses for the spells were never meant to be 100% effective for every class, as this was further balancing between the different Force classes. Fonewearl was primarily a 1v1, full-damage force, with multipliers on basic techniques and Megid chances. Lack of AoEs are made up for when she acquires Megid, which has permanent piercing ability. Piercing increases the practicality of Megid tenfold, really. Fomarls got grants boosts, and Fonewms were the "melee" force class. This is also something that REEAAALLLYYYY pissed me off when i realized they left it out of PSU, because it really helped keep the forces fun to play with. The different little perks each force class got (Support range, multipliers on techniques, differing casting speeds) really helped set them apart. On PSU/PSP2, the only thing setting them apart is HP and TP, which never adds up to much, and makes Female Newman the pretty much staple of the class without giving much variety.




This was later magnified in the PSOBB private server, where certain once-useless Force weapons were given more glaring magnifications to technique damage output. Naturally, it's something you have to be very careful with, because the balance between what your weapons contribute to you and what your techniques are capable of doing is integral to having the hybrid, Battlemage-style characters still being feasible. The notion that one should switch to a specific weapon in order to cast a technique is something that very much needs to be avoided - because if the base level of a spell isn't nearly as potent as the version boosted by a specific equipped weapon, then we've just gone full circle in trying to correct what is easily one of PSU's biggest mistakes.

That's not to say that PSO's pre-private-server Force weapon attributes were a lot - two of the weapons were purely defensive, and the only one that has an offensive use (as a small base attribute boost) confers only a small boost in the first place. Perhaps one solution would be to further separate one's weapon from one's techniques even further, by making the "Force" classification of weapons have more directly defensive capabilities.

That is, aside from some simple defensive stat boosts (be they DFP, EVP or elemental resistances), the way the weapons themselves actually act could be designed in a defensive manner. For instance, Clubs could change from simply being a weak Saber clone, into a weapon type where enemies are flinched more readily and easily stunned. Likewise, something like Rods could be used to push enemies farther away than normal.

The overall idea here being that weapons are still weapons, and there should be no bad weapon types, just different weapon types. Weapon types, much like individual techniques, should be functionally-different from one other in order to provide one's equipment choices with more real tactical implications. Within this line of thought, it'd even be appropriate to open up some of these weapon types to non-Force characters, allowing them to take up defensive-use weapons as well.

An approach like this would address several problems at once: People don't have to change to a Force weapon to cast techniques by necessity, people aren't encouraged to switch to a Force weapon to cast techniques by overwhelming efficacy differences, and the classification of Force weapons is no longer a throwaway category with little in the way of real combat implications. +10, thank you couldn't have stated this better. Just because you dont attack with the weapon doesn't mean it should be useless, and just because you can make it augment your techniques doesn't mean every rare should be competing with each-other for DPS applications. PSU's weapon system was overly tedious for forces and just did not work in the slightest.

TheBlackMage
Jan 4, 2011, 02:07 PM
I thought (before EP2 came out with the FOmar) FOmarls were the melee force (along with grants boost) and FOnewms had a boost to the RA spells making them excellent at AoE attacks?

pso_crash
Jan 4, 2011, 02:08 PM
A few ideas that I think are worthwhile are:

- The pp bar is one of the biggest hindrances to forces doing consistent damage. They can't keep up offensively because their attacks are very slow and their pp bar runs out quickly when they are not even using PAs. Forces need to have have better AOE burst damage, or just improve the damage output and give the class a way to quickly/instantly replenish PP.

- Another problem for forces is how limited they are in the way they can use techs. Their are so many elements and techs to choose from, our action pallet is so limited. It would be painstakingly slow and really unreasonable for forces to change techs on every weapon every time a player wants to run a different mission. Maybe a quick menu could help resolve this issue.

-Letting players put the same tech on the same weapon multiple times. Sometimes the tech that is best for building a chain is also the best for breaking the chain. Unfortunately forces have to decide between one or the other.

TheBlackMage
Jan 4, 2011, 02:33 PM
- I'm assuming since this is PSO2 we'll be going back to TP and not PP. TP wasn't much of an issue for forces (aside from the early lvls) so hopefully this issue will disappear.

-Keep in mind PSO2 is for PC so we'll have a hotbar of 1-0 again along with the ability to cast techs quickly from the tech menu which the tech menu will probably hotkeyed to one of the F keys again (F3 I think it was in PSOBB?) so as long as techs aren't linked to weapons (One of the worst ideas ever in my opinion) this issue won't exist.

-Again assuming they'll go back to PSO's roots we won't have techs linked to weapons. I'm not sure if they'll keep the chain feature though. They might, who knows...

Kent
Jan 4, 2011, 03:40 PM
I thought (before EP2 came out with the FOmar) FOmarls were the melee force (along with grants boost) and FOnewms had a boost to the RA spells making them excellent at AoE attacks?
Back before Episodes I & II was released on the GameCube and Xbox, Forces were very different.

Techniques only went to 15, and everyone who was not an Android could learn all of them to their maximum level (if I remember correctly, techniques past 15 were added and made Force-only in V2), only Wands and a handful of rare Force-only weapons had any passive bonuses to them at all, and none of the Force characters had any specific boosts to any techniques.

It wasn't until Episodes I & II that Grants, Megid and Reverser were made Force-only, HUmars and RAmars had their respective limitations on support techniques (Shifta/Deband can no longer be learned by HUmars, Jellen/Zalure can no longer be learned by RAmars), HUnewearls and RAmarls got access to level 20 techniques, Canes and Rods were given their defensive bonuses, and the various Force characters were given their respective technique type bonuses. The Dreamcast games were indeed dark times for anyone who wasn't a Hunter.

TheBlackMage
Jan 4, 2011, 03:50 PM
Ah, I've only played v2 and beyond. Thanks for the clarification.

Darki
Jan 4, 2011, 05:02 PM
I understand what kent said, but the issue about magic weapons providing deffensive stats come again to me as something not too good. In case they add to PSO 2 (and I pray for it) Shields as equipable "weapons", that would be pretty much the best deffensive option (and in this case, obvious and understandable), as they're, well, shields lol.

As I said in my post, from PSU I really love the fact that TECH weapons are USED for casting spells. Maybe it's my need to "homogenize" combat types, but same way that to slash a monster you need an edged weapon, to blow up a building with an explosive spell you should need a magic weapon. Yeah, it's true that you can bare-handed punch a Booma to death, same that you should be able to throw a fireball without wand... But the fact is that, same that wielding a sword increases your offensive power up to many times that of your bare fists, a wand should do the same with TECHs.

You can say that magic is something that comes "from your mind" but the way I see it, you could also say that the strenght that you use to cut a monster in half also comes from your muscles, not the weapon. But same that the weapon adds a hard, heavy substance to make your attack stronger, and an edge to deal wounds to your opponent, a magic wand should be the tool to "refine" your attack into something more dangerous and powerful.

But well, that's my point of view. I don't have anything against casting not being linked to magic weapons, but I want those magic weapons to do something "magic", not only a passive or deffensive effect. If that was the case then I'd just prefer PSU method.

RemiusTA
Jan 4, 2011, 06:31 PM
the reason i hate having to have magic binded to weapons is that it kills the versatility of the forces. Forces were unique in PSO where they never NEEDED to carry around a wooden stick just to blow you apart. Likewise, it was always great to be able to wack an enemy with a saber, or shoot them with a handgun. Forces were about Magic and Damage, but their power wasn't without a cost. Conservation was also a big part of playing them.

keeping them stuck to wands and staves is just lame to me. Sometimes you want to open a box, or finish off a weak enemy without wasting your precious magic abilities. Of course, they should be made stronger by weapons meant to increase their magic abilities, but in the end they aren't attacking with a weapon.


And besides, in the sense of Phantasy Star (and any videogame, really) needing Strength to wield a weapon is sort of retarded. Seeing as weapons usually get stronger as you progress, you naturally should have to exert less effort to wield them. Weapons in Phantasy Star seem to be made of Photon energy anyway, and as they get stronger i would suspect them to function a bit like Lightsabers from Star Wars. A slash isn't even needed -- anything that touches the blade is obliterated. A child could slice a monster in half. Same goes with armor -- why would you need experience or strength to wear armor? If anything, heavier armor should physically make you stronger by just wearing it....

That said, i absolutely hate level-restricted equipment in games. The MAG system in PSO did a great job of lessening the blow for experienced players, or players who already had high-leveled characters on the server.

Randomness
Jan 4, 2011, 07:12 PM
That sounds like exactly the kind of thing we want to avoid. PSU's style of the prefix defining the techinque's AOE was a bad idea - it made everything feel like it's the same, just different elements.

On the other hand, PSO's uniqueness amongst techniques (save for only a couple exceptions) are part of why playing someone with techniques was actually fun - because having to deal damage of a different element meant that you had to use different positioning and different tactics to actually get the most effectiveness out of them.

Though there are only so many ways you can deal damage to a wide area (as is the point of Ra- techniques, really), these differences were most prevalent in the basic and Gi- techniques. If anything, I would say that the only real techniques that would have to be changed from what they were in PSO would be Rabarta/Razonde (too functionally-similar) and Grants (basically a slow Zonde, and not really worth the TP cost and sluggish time before it hits).

Keeping techniques functionally-different from each other, especially between both elements and types, serves only to add depth to the overall gameplay. PSU's implementation of homogenizing technique types is only an example of how to take steps backward in a game such as this.

Basically, I think that all techs that create an explosion at a distance should be prefixed the same. Even if you don't use every prefix in every element. Or, you could abandon prefixes or something too.

Mostly, I just always found it odd how similar Gifoie, Razonde, and Rabarta functioned, but the latter two had a different prefix. I think that similar names should imply similar functionality.

I want a large variety of hit patterns, but I also want to have a general idea of the hit pattern from the name. In PSO, tech names didn't tell you much at all about how they acted. PSU did improve on that, but made them too similar.

Amaury
Jan 4, 2011, 08:56 PM
not only did PSU's prefix system damper the technics, it just flat out did not work. It gave you too many spells, tried to make them unique, but completely failed when it came down to all of them being useful in their own regard, where most of them just weren't.

In PSO, each Technique essentially functioned different from the other. So a switch in the element you were using was almost like equipping a different weapon for any other class. You had 3 to choose from, each with varying attack powers and speeds for your situations. When it came down to attack power, Forces always seemed like High Cost + High Risk = High Reward, as you were able to walk into a room and, in seconds, have everything on the floor already. Costs of Trifluids, however, were usually overwhelming for me. Were the TP bars of Forces in PSO unlimited, they would have little issues with any enemies in the game. But you constantly had not only damage output but resource conservation in mind as you fought. This is why i loved the force class, as you had lots of power, but were limited mostly by your own limits. In general, i really enjoy how PSO did things. Hunter depth was maintained mostly by your choice of weapons and armors, Ranger depth was determined mostly by spacing and utilizing the Extra Attack of your weapon, which usually balanced out completely your damage being so low, thanks to range and high accuracy. Forces depth mostly resides in good judgement, spacing and management of your resources, because once your Meseta runs out, your battle capabilities are severely stunted.

PSU/PSPo2 is just a really funny case in my eyes. The flaws of the Force class, in all instances, are simply an accumulation of ALL the issues with the combat design of the game. There are literally so many issues wrong with the class that when i try to recall them, im at a loss of where to start explaining just what all went wrong. Ill try, nonetheless
[spoiler-box]
- PSU's system of an experience-based leveling system for skills. It just did not work for technics. Everytime you went to a new planet, your character instantly became significantly more trash than it was before, since those elements you didn't use are coming back to kick you in the ass. And it isn't like you can just ignore it, either. Oh well, time to go spam SEED Express and level those spells up!

-PSU's system of "Every 10 levels". Once again, Damage increase was an important part of Techniques in PSO, but more than anything the usefulness of the technique was brought about by the constant evolution in form you got for like every 3 or 4 levels. Speed, Range, form and targeting capabilities were all constantly improving. In PSU, the difficulty of the game grew far faster than your abilities could, and even in the end, it never quite caught up all the way, even at max power.

Prime example -- remember Shifta, Deband, Jellen, Zalure and Anti/Reverser? Yeah. Remember how in PSU, each of them leveled up 50 times but only 4 of those levels were ever useful? Thats what im talking about. Stupidest. Design choice. Ever.


-PSU's system of "only so many targets". Rafoie, a giant magic explosion, hitting only one box on an enemy, when a Grenade or a Sword can hit up to 4 or 6? Wow.

-PSU's system of Flinching, launching and knockdowns, and limitations on targets. Rafoie, a giant magic explosion, can barely stop an enemy from charging me, while a mere SABER animation can knock it on its side? Okay. Whatever.

-Technic Damage Sucking. Rafoie, a giant magic explosion, is outdamaged by a SABER photon art? Okay i get it, you just really dont like magic.

[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]
-PSU's focus on Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, one of the worst screwups, IMO. This little gimmick is almost ALWAYS the Magician's forte, because it almost always does the most damage and magicians are almost always element benders. So now you give it to the Rangers AND Hunters, and simply make it overly complicated for the Forces, making them work harder for less profit? Come onnnnnn....

You see, PSO cleverly overlooked this issue. In PSO, each enemy was classified as "Native", "Altered Beast", "Machine" or "Dark". And to top it off, taking advantage of this was only something extra -- you never HAD to do it, it just occasionally made you life alot easier (and more fun!). Elemental Weakness was something that only forces (and occasionally rangers) had to ever worry about. Forces were the only class who really benefited much from exploiting elements. Because of this, they usually had damage that hovered above that of the other classes.

In PSU, Enemy Attribute and Elemental Attribute were made one in the same, the BIGGEST design screwup and most damaging blow to the Forces. For one, it made their job a helluva lot harder since there are double the amount of elements in this game. Couple that with the new Prefix system which adds more technics to each element, and the shitty leveling system which keeps your spells useless unless you spend hours spamming them....and, yeah you do the math. Two, it gave the same ability to the Hunters and Rangers, which usually do a much better job at exploiting it than you, which ends up making you weaker than them. And finally, since the entire game was built around this little gimmick, it's naturally weighted heavier than any other attribute in the game. (Elemental Resistance on armor made DFP almost useless) But, for some reason, Force's damage just never reflected this.

Couple alll this shit with the fact that the different Technic Elements were never made equal, and you have one shitstorm of a shitty class on your hands. Run into a formidable Earth, Fire, Dark, or Light enemy in this game, and you are absolutely fucked. If Dambarta, Diga, Nosdiga or Foie doesn't damage it, you are rightly screwed with a 10 inch pole, and there arent many ways around it. Hunters and Rangers dont have this issue -- they still have weapons that do damage outside the elemental classes. But Forces -- your technics are nothing BUT elemental damage, and about 32 out of your 36 technics are absolute garbage. Giant, nimble, multitarget enemies are going to screw your asshole all night long, and your only real salvation are your only useful spells...which more often than not arent the element you should be using.

-PSU's Weapon Binding system. Oh, Lord. Instead of there being only 3 spells for each element there are now 4, and instead of there only being 3 elements to have spells for, there are now 6. This is alot of work for your Action Pallete weapons (which all have varied stats and binded technics, so you cant just stick with one like in PSO). So if youre playing a stage with 3 different element types, thats already 12 spells you'll be obliged to use.


Bigger issue comes into play when you realize that instead of your CHARACTER holding all the damage potential for Technics, it's your WEAPON that's doing the real damage here. Oh, fuck. So, not only do I have to carefully choose which spells im going to use, I have to choose which spells are going to suck more than the others, too? God Dammit. So, now you're running around a stage with that one weapon thats super powerful, and a whole bunch of Scrub weapons in comparison that really just don't hold up very well. Yeah, tons of issues with why this system crippled forces, so im just gonna finish it here.


[/spoiler-box]

Im tired of typing this crap now. But really, all of this could have been avoided if they had used just a little bit of hindsight.

You complain too much. Except for some typos, there are really no flaws in PSU.

RemiusTA
Jan 4, 2011, 09:04 PM
I hope you're joking.

Amaury
Jan 4, 2011, 09:06 PM
I hope you're joking.

Nope.

Randomness
Jan 4, 2011, 09:16 PM
I hope you're joking.

PSU's problems:
1-SEGA/Sonic Team mismanagement
2-PA leveling (I mean, rifle bullets, really?)
3-Crimson/White Beast Syndrome (When you can only see people running one or two missions at a time... people WILL gather at one place)
4-Synthesis (Just a good way to get pissed off)

The actual gameplay of killing stuff was fine. It was basically everything that you had to do to get to that point.

Chaobo99
Jan 4, 2011, 09:34 PM
Except for some typos, there are really no flaws in PSU.

PSU did have flaws, but heck if you enjoyed it why does it matter? PSU could have been way better but it never became reality.

As far as leveling rifle bullets.. sure why not. But when leveling them gave them more elemental % then technics.. then ugh lol.

TheBlackMage
Jan 4, 2011, 09:46 PM
Personally for me playing a force was a lot of fun in PSO yet in PSU I found it extremly agravating.

PSO's spells were more situational based. In PSU it (or seemed like) was more "counter element". While it was like that too in PSO it wasn't as bad as it was in PSU in my opinion.

Plus as it was already mentioned before, some spells just weren't really worth casting in PSU, Diga replacing Foie anyone?

I know me and some other people will be extremely disappointed if we don't have our old spells back and are left with PSU's spells. As Doctor Seuss would've said: "I'll still play the game of course just not as a force."

Tetsaru
Jan 5, 2011, 01:12 AM
You complain too much. Except for some typos, there are really no flaws in PSU.

Wow, really? No wonder I can't take anything you say seriously, especially when you don't even back up your statements with anything factual... but I guess PSU was great if you liked holding conversations mid-battle with your NPC meatshields... :rolleyes:

Back on-topic though, here's how I would like to see each spell handled:


Foie: This should be one of the first, if not THE first spell that players get hold of and start using. Like in both PSO and PSU, a fireball is shot forward and hits a single target for high damage, and like in PSU, it would have a small chance of burning the target. As the spell levels up, it would get larger and faster, but players could enhance the spell with different effects, such as having the fireball make a small explosion when it hits its target and deal splash damage to adjacent targets, casting multiple fireballs in rapid succession before the cooldown timer kicked in, or firing them in a spead shot (similar to how shotguns and crossbows worked in PSU).


Gifoie: When cast, multiple small fireballs would surround and swirl around your character, dealing small damage with a high chance of applying burn to anything they touch, multiple times. However, instead of expanding outward on their own, like in PSO, you could choose when to spiral them outward to hit surrounding enemies for larger damage. While the spell is surrounding you, your TP would slowly drain as an upkeep cost, and its cooldown would be applied after you "release" the spell, varying in length depending on how long it was kept up, up to a certain cap. As it levels up, you would gain more fireballs to surround you, its radius would increase when expanded outwards, and it would also grant an additional damage bonus to other fire spells you cast while active.


Rafoie: A big, fucking explosion that looks like a hydrogen bomb going off at high levels. :wacko: Naturally, this would be a great spell for crowd control, dealing high damage to multiple enemies caught in the blast. However, the spell would require a bit more skill to use, as it would have a long cooldown, a large TP cost, and you would need to aim it carefully in order to make the most of it. As the spell levels, it would gain multiple abilities, such as dealing continuous damage to enemies caught in the blast radius and then knocking them back (similar to how the Nova Bomb in Super Smash Bros. Brawl worked), and gaining a shockwave that rapidly expanded outwards from the blast radius, knocking down and dealing lesser damage to enemies that are further away.


Damfoie: A continuous, flamethrower/breath-like attack, similar to that in PSU. However, you could still move around, albeit slowly, while casting it. Like Gifoie, it would slowly drain TP the longer it is used, it would hit multiple times for small amounts of damage, and would almost ALWAYS inflict burn. As it levels, the stream of fire would become longer and more cone-shaped.


Nosfoie: A Will-O'-Wisp style attack in which a small flame would be fired outwards and would home in on the nearest enemy, continuously dealing very small amounts of damage, and possibly applying multiple status effects (perhaps Burn and Jellen). Unlike Gifoie or Damfoie, Nosfoie would not require a continuous TP cost; it would be a "fire and forget" type of spell. It would also have considerably longer range, and if a monster died while the effect was still going, it would home in onto another enemy, until the effect wore off, or if there were no more enemies in range.


Barta: Just like in PSO and PSU, this would be a steady stream of ice that pierces through multiple enemies in its path and deal moderate damage. It could not only travel up and down slopes, but possibly up walls and ceilings as well, allowing for skilled players to hit enemies that hid in such areas. The spell would also launch enemies straight up and possibly freeze them.


Gibarta: Unlike previous games, this spell could be used to conjure up a large, wide wall of ice to prevent enemy advances on you, or to block off tunnels, hallways, etc. and buy some time. Enemies that touch the wall would take small amounts of damage continuously as they keep contact with it, and would most likely get frozen as well. Enemies could not attack or cast spells through the wall, but neither could players; instead, the wall would slowly weaken as it takes damage from either monsters or players, or it would melt on its own after a certain duration. Fire damage would possibly destroy it within one or two casts, though. As the spell levels, the wall would become larger and more durable, and could also gain a reflective property to where certain spells could bounce off of it at different angles, allowing for crazy things to happen! This spell would have a long cooldown and a relatively high TP cost, though.


Rabarta: A cone-shaped blast of spiked ice would extend forward from the player, dealing high damage and knocking back enemies in front of you, possibly freezing them beforehand and delaying the knockback so that additional damage can be dealt. Unlike the other ice spells, which have more of a utility use, this spell would be mostly used to deal ice damage.


Dambarta: This spell would conjure up a miniature blizzard-like weather effect in the area, blowing snow and strong cold winds in the direction you face. Enemies in the area would be severely slowed and would eventually freeze to a halt if they tried advancing against the direction of the winds. Frozen (or otherwise immobile) enemies could then be pushed around in the direction of the winds. The spell would do small amounts of damage over time and slowly drain TP, but would mostly be used to manipulate enemy movements.


Nosbarta: A large snowball would appear in front of you, and you could roll it around, making it bigger and bigger, consuming TP as you go. You could release it at any time to make the snowball roll forward, continuing to grow until it hits a wall, falls off a cliff, etc. where it would explode. Any enemies that are small enough (depending on how long the snowball was rolled around) would then stick to the snowball and would take multiple hits as long as the snowball kept rolling. When the snowball explodes, enemies would take a larger sum of damage and would be launched away from the explosion. Basically, you could "Katamari" your enemies! :wacko: The spell would take a long time preparing, but could do considerable damage and severely hinder your enemies.


Zonde: The basic lightning spell, a large bolt of lightning would instantly arc down from the sky with a loud thunderclap, smiting an enemy for medium damage and possibly shocking or silencing it (silence because of the loud thunder... to me that makes sense, I dunno). As it levels, the spell could deal splash damage to adjacent targets, fire off other bolts (or the bolt would branch off) immediately after the first to other targets close by, and knock down enemies.


Gizonde: A "chain lightning" spell similar to the one from PSO that hits multiple enemies in succession. Instead of instantly targeting everything, however, the bolt would hit the nearest target first, then rapidly travel to the next. If the spell doesn't have many targets to bounce to (for example, if there were only 2 targets), then the bolt would continuously bounce between them for additional hits until it fizzles out. If there is only one target, however, the spell will not bounce at all, so it would not be good to use in such a situation. As the spell levels, it would gain additional "bounces," more range, and a higher chance to shock each target.


Razonde: A "Force lightning" style attack (lol, see what I did thar? :wacko: ). Electrical energy would be focused onto a single target, rapidly accumulating small amounts of damage every fraction of a second, and also stunning/flinching the crap out of the target, allowing other players to focus their attacks onto it. It would have a high, continuous TP cost and a long cooldown to offset its powerful effects, however.


Damzonde: A large storm would be conjured up, periodically striking random enemies with lightning and enhancing the strength of other lightning spells. The storm has a greater effect if used in an outdoor area!


Noszonde: Basically the same as it was in PSU, but with more control over the orb. Instead of moving forward on its own until it homes in on an enemy, the caster would directly control where the orb went in all three dimensions (think Ness's PK Thunder from Smash Bros., but in 3D). The caster's TP would drain as the orb is moved around, until they manually detonate it for high damage in a small area of effect. As it levels up, the orb could also be made to pass through enemies, damaging and possibly applying status effects, and would also randomly arc bolts onto nearby enemies while being moved.


Diga: Mostly the same as it was in PSU, a boulder would be launched and hit a single target for a large amount of damage. However, to differentiate it more from Foie, Diga would focus more on splash/AoE damage, as the boulder would get considerably larger as it levels up. It would also knock down enemies when it hits as well, simulating getting crushed under the weight of the boulder. Being an earth spell, I would expect this spell to move slowly.


Gidiga: This would send a shockwave through the ground, expanding outward from where it was cast. It would deal moderate damage, and continuously knock enemies back.


Radiga: Like in PSU, a large stone spire would erupt from the ground, but would also launch enemies upwards. It would also create impassible terrain, similar to my idea for Gibarta, but would create a round pillar instead of a long, thin wall. It would also do more damage upon being cast, would have a much shorter cooldown, and would not damage enemies if they touch it afterwards.


Damdiga: A very large area of effect spell that causes an earthquake while it is channeled. Enemies would constantly be knocked down and dealt small amounts of continuous damage. Similar to Damzonde, this spell would better to cast indoors to cause rubble and debris to fall and deal extra damage!


Nosdiga: I guess this one would be similar to PSU - send "Hulk Smash"-like waves through the ground that can be guided, gaining multiple waves as it levels up and a stun effect.


Grants: Same as in PSO, except more dramatic. When this spell is cast, I expect to see the clouds part, and a focused beam of light would come down to smite a single enemy for a TON of damage, as if God came down and just said, "NO." :wacko: The spell cannot be dodged, and would also have a chance to inflict confusion. This spell would be hands down the best single-target damage spell in the game, but would have a delay of a few seconds, a very high TP cost, and a long cooldown. (Also, I think it would be cool if all the Grants techs could illuminate dark areas. :) )


Gigrants: The caster would "bless" the area surrounding him/her, allowing him/her and any friendly party members standing in it to regenerate their HP and gain other bonuses, such as extra light elemental damage (allowing for even more damage with Grants, for example!). Enemies that approach the blessed area would either lose their aggression towards party members and ignore them, or otherwise take continuous damage and flinch if they manage to stand in it.


Ragrants: I would give this a similar area of effect to Rafoie, but instead of dealing a lot of damage (although it still would do SOME damage), this spell would illuminate a large area and cause all enemies within it to become confused.


Damgrants: Similar to Regrants from PSU, but without the shitty delay or health drain, lol. The caster would channel a dazzling glimmer of light, and enemies that are close to it would be forced to back away and stop attacking (perhaps have some sort of blinding status effect?) instead of being constantly knocked back.


Nosgrants: A beam of light would be fired and channeled across a long distance, and could be moved around. It would deal small amounts of continuous damage, but would have a high chance to both blind(?) and/or burn enemies. It would also work well for illuminating dark corridors or hallways.


Megid: I would rather see the PSO version of this spell be in PSO2. A dark ball of energy would be shot forward, and would either instantly kill the target, or not do anything, and it would not pierce. I think it would be awesome if, at higher levels, the projectile would develop an evil-looking or skull-like face on it biting into the enemy whenever it successfully worked, and it would definitely make a distinctive noise.


Gimegid: This would work similarly to PSU's Megiverse, but not nearly as useless. The caster would infect an area of the ground surrounding them (one-time cast, not channeling) for several seconds, and any enemy that walked onto it would be slowed and their health would gradually be sapped, healing you.


Ramegid: Similar to PSU's spell, but would work like a black hole. After being cast, the spell would pull enemies in towards it for several seconds, dealing damage equal to a percentage of the enemy's HP. At higher levels, the spell would gain a small chance of consuming enemies entirely.


Dammegid: Any of you guys ever played the first God of War game? You remember the Army of Hades? Yeah, it'd be like that. :wacko: Basically, evil spirits would surround your character upon casting, and would have a high upkeep TP AND HP cost until you decided to "dismiss" them. They would then swarm enemies, dealing continuous damage and launch them around.


Nosmegid: The caster would focus his or her energies on a single enemy, placing a curse on it, and inflicting random multiple status effects and debuffs on it over time. The longer the spell is channeled, the more effects are stacked, and they would grow more powerful. This spell would not deal any direct damage, however.


As for supportive spells, most of them would stay the same, save for the channeling idea I mentioned earlier. That, and I'm tired of typing... @[email protected]

Kent
Jan 5, 2011, 03:47 PM
You complain too much. Except for some typos, there are really no flaws in PSU.
The fact that you're implying that it's possible for anything to be perfect, completely destroys any credibility you may have had in the first place.

Amaury
Jan 5, 2011, 07:09 PM
The fact that you're implying that it's possible for anything to be perfect, completely destroys any credibility you may have had in the first place.

Let me rephrase that, then. There are no major flaws in PSU.

Kirukia
Jan 5, 2011, 07:23 PM
I personally liked forces in PSO best.
Even though I played as a force in PSZ as well, it was almost aggravating to play as any other class because they just weren't as powerful, especially rangers.

PSU forces are okay but I don't like how they are set up. I would much rather have character TP that I can pull from instead of a weapon. Since I started with PSO, it just makes more sense to me that the magic come from the character themselves and not the weapon they are wielding. I also found it frustrating that I'd have to change weapons and wait for the spells to load everytime I needed a new type, instead of having a large varienty of hotkeys that made it easier for situational use.

The one thing I disliked about forces in PSO though that I'd like to see a change from is the support force orientation. Because of the fact that hunters and rangers could arguably do much more damage than most forces (unless that force has rare and powerful equipment, and even still) it made forces almost impossible to use in a party. By the time I buffed and debuffed, I might get off one spell before the enemies are dead. Maybe throw off a resta from time to time. I could solo but hunters and rangers just outclassed me in terms of damage and I ended up being more useful by just sitting around enhancing their skills instead of being my own character.

I like how forces were in PSO and how they were set up, but I'd like to see them be more than a heal slave and have some power in a party with offensive magic. Basically, make forces able to go down three pathways. Support, Offense, or a combination of the two.

Kent
Jan 5, 2011, 08:17 PM
Let me rephrase that, then. There are no major flaws in PSU.
Well now you're just being silly. The game, and its management, are rife with major flaws that ended up preventing a lot of players from enjoying the game, and alienating a significant chunk of the series' fanbase in the process.

If you're going to make such audacious statements as this, trying to explain why many users' significant issues with the game were not major flaws would be a good start.

Dongra
Jan 5, 2011, 10:30 PM
Let me rephrase that, then. There are no major flaws in PSU.I can't imagine anyone typing that with a straight face considering one of the servers for the game was shut down because of a lack of population. Surely people were not playing because the game had so few flaws it literally blew them away from their computers and PS2's, so that they couldn't physically log on.

Tetsaru
Jan 6, 2011, 01:45 AM
Let me rephrase that, then. There are no major flaws in PSU.

Either you're trying to troll us, or you're just fucking oblivious about how badly PSU was designed and managed online as a whole. If you REALLY think PSU is so good, then you either must have REALLY low standards for video games in general, or you're stuck in a comfort zone in which you're afraid to try other games.

Instead of derailing this topic further and telling you the MANY reasons why PSU was a poor online RPG from the moment it started (which would probably take me about an hour or longer to even write up and post anyway), I'll just sit here and continue to laugh my ass off. :D Then again, I guess there's nothing wrong with liking something that the majority of people frown upon, but whatever creams your twinkie...

BIG OLAF
Jan 6, 2011, 02:31 AM
Uh, I think PSU is fun. I like it a hell of a lot better than PSO. Does that make me stupid or something...? I don't understand what everyone's trying to say, I guess.

Dongra
Jan 6, 2011, 02:50 AM
No one is saying that you couldn't enjoy the game. Hell, I even enjoyed it for the time that I played it. The issue here is that it is ignorant to try and justify the game as being nearly flawless when it clearly had many big flaws. However, I stopped playing the game long ago so, for all I know by some miracle, Sega may have fixed it to the point of near perfection. I highly doubt this is the case though.

I am also willing to admit that PSO was far from perfect as well.

BIG OLAF
Jan 6, 2011, 03:15 AM
No one is saying that you couldn't enjoy the game. Hell, I even enjoyed it for the time that I played it. The issue here is that it is ignorant to try and justify the game as being nearly flawless when it clearly had many big flaws. However, I stopped playing the game long ago so, for all I know by some miracle, Sega may have fixed it to the point of near perfection. I highly doubt this is the case though.

I am also willing to admit that PSO was far from perfect as well.

Ah, I see. Yes, I love PSU. It's probably one of my top 3 favorite games I've ever played. But, it's got many large, apparent flaws. That's not debatable in the least.

Darki
Jan 6, 2011, 11:50 AM
Each game has its flaws and it's success. For me combat system and hybrid classes in PSU was by far more superior than combat & classing system in PSO in general, save some minor exceptions. And I'm sorry but having my characters do impossible combos and attacks with all weapons instead of the endless boring 3-attack-combo succession while rooting the ground like a tree, was one of the main reasons I preferred PSU. After all, the games are suppossed to be about killing big bad mobs.

RemiusTA
Jan 6, 2011, 09:05 PM
PSU was fun, but it DID have very, very major design flaws.

Darki
Jan 7, 2011, 07:19 AM
Design? I don't believe that. PSU's major flaw has been ST's management, but the game itself has been very, very well designed from my point of view, and it got fixed in many matters, at least conceptually, in PSPo series.

Tell me a "flaw" that is not related to ST's bad management. I mean if we use the word" flaw" as game mechanics done bad or imbalanced, and not as design, because that has to do with individual tastes. I mean, for me a flaw is that GTs, FTs and WTs are pretty much useless compared to other classes because of stat imbalance and that their major roles were stepped on by other classes. THAT's a flaw. That you don't like casting techs using a wand is not a "flaw", is a feature of the game that you can like or dislike (for example I like that, and you can find millions of stories and reasonement to tell me why casting techs with a wand is wrong, I can find as many to tell you why is right).

From my point of view, PSU was a very good concept, better than PSO's, but it started a downfall since the level cap got high enough to notice differences in balance between classes. ST instead of fixing that decided to "feed the troll" and make overpowered classes MORE overpowered, to keep the customers who liked those classes being OP, and of course that led to even more imbalance. Thanks to PSPo series, the game concept has ben a bit "redeemed" but of course the damage is done and the main game, even being my favorite from the saga, is full of imbalance and "flaws".

But concept? Not really. Sorry, but that's a matter of taste, and you can feel free to like PSO's concept more than PSU, while I'll prefer PSU over PSO. Mechanics, yeah, the game has many flaws in the mechanics, like two races having some sort of "Photon Blast" while other two don't (solved in PSPo2), Techs not being able to hit multiple hitnboxes (solved in PSPo2), and many others. That's what we want to avoid.

Kimil Adrayne
Jan 7, 2011, 11:07 AM
Here are a few design flaws in PSU, as in flaws that are not due to Sega's management, that I'd like to point out:
* Synthesis system. I mean really, did anyone like this?
* Vehicles. They never really served a purpose.
* All enemies were a re-skins.
* Uninspired, non memorable areas.
* Terrible music/mood/story. Too childish.
* White Beast Syndrome. I say this is design flaw that could have been fixed with updates, but simply never was fixed effectively.
* Broken PAs/classes/races. Yes, this stems from a design flaw. Though it could have been adjusted with updates, class equity was never realized.
* Boring PA leveling system. Remember support leveling parties?
* Lack of diversity in Techs.
* Weapon infused techs didn't really help Forces. This has been debated a ton in this thread.

BIG OLAF
Jan 7, 2011, 11:22 AM
* Synthesis system. I mean really, did anyone like this?
* All enemies were a re-skins.
* Uninspired, non memorable areas.
* Terrible music/mood/story. Too childish.

I only really agree with these. The synthesis system was good in theory, but poorly executed. Who wants to hunt a weapon board for weeks, spend 50mil on materials, and wait six hours just to have the thing blow up in your face? We'll see what Sega does for PSO2, since they've already said they're bringing it back, but "more improved".

As for the next three points, I also agree. The one and only thing I actually liked about PSO was the atmosphere. The music, the environment, the creatures, etc. All superb. PSU's music/environment/creatures wasn't interesting at all. The music was very stale. The environments were all the same 5 or 6 rooms over and over again.

There were some enemies in PSO that you would dread fighting, as they would be a challenge. However, once you got towards endgame in PSU, there was no monster that could stop you, and the challenge (what little there was to begin with) was completely gone.

Darki
Jan 7, 2011, 12:12 PM
Here are a few design flaws in PSU, as in flaws that are not due to Sega's management, that I'd like to point out:
* Synthesis system. I mean really, did anyone like this?
* Vehicles. They never really served a purpose.
* All enemies were a re-skins.
* Uninspired, non memorable areas.
* Terrible music/mood/story. Too childish.
* White Beast Syndrome. I say this is design flaw that could have been fixed with updates, but simply never was fixed effectively.
* Broken PAs/classes/races. Yes, this stems from a design flaw. Though it could have been adjusted with updates, class equity was never realized.
* Boring PA leveling system. Remember support leveling parties?
* Lack of diversity in Techs.
* Weapon infused techs didn't really help Forces. This has been debated a ton in this thread.

What is not due to ST's management? Vehicles "abandon" and "WB syndrome" as you call is a clear example of ST's bad management by not updating the game with missions that included them, or not updating missions to match WB's usefulness.

Synthesis system, I agree is a bad feature, or as we could put it, a bad used feature. Same that PSO had Montague's mission to create weapons out of monster parts, Synthesis could have been much better as an optional feature for some kind of weapons, like for example Kubara and monster based weapons.

The concept of vehicles wasn't bad, excuse me. Vehicles would have serve a really interesting purpose such as a theme for many mission blocks to not to have them as the same "3-block-kill-everything-then-boss" missions. The feature was there, but ST never decide to include them in further missions, so that doesn't fall for me under "design flaw" but more as a "management flaw".

In case of many monster reskins, don't forget that PSU had many more monsters than PSO, and reskinning in a MMO is not a new issue, specially taking in account that the game was made for PS2 too, which limited the content size, but yeah, this can be considered a flaw.

About unspired areas and bad music and mood, it might be a flaw, but not the story, I'm sorry, but I like PSU story, and many people do. If you don't like, then okay, but that's not that was "bad made", that's just you don't like. PSU has many scenarios and areas, and some of them were very beautiful, for example I prefer Habirao areas in PSU much more than PSO forests anytime.

Again, class imbalance was a management flaw. When the game had level 60 as cap with PAs all at 20 max, the game wasn't "that" imbalanced, but the differences were getting further as the caps were getting increased and ST not only didn't fix it, but it even fucked it up even more. Classes were "good designed", but bad managed in the long term.

Also, PSU PA levelling system might be boring, but it isn't as PSO was much better, relying all in luck when you ran out of them in the shops. I dunno what is more boring, to go to a buff party and level up a buff, or to go on endless missions to find the disk only to get a TECH 2 levels higher... I'm sorry, but that is very argueable if it's a flaw or not.

About the lack of diversity in techs, PSU still had more techs that PSO. PSO had only eleven striking techs, PSU had also 11 different types of techs plus the "reskinned" ones, if you want, and in PSPo2 they added more, and even more in PSPo2i.

Finally, as you said, weapon infused techs have been discussed here a lot, but I don'tt see any "official" version of what's the best. For me, the concept of using tech weapons is better than free casting there, but if you don't like, then that's all. I don't see it as a "design flaw".

Considering as a flaw whatever you don't like doesn't seem to me too credible, sorry. I don't like many of PSO features, but that doesn't mean the game was bad done, that means I don't like them, plain and simple. I'm not going to try to convince you that PSO TECH disk system was a flaw because it wasn't, but from my point of view, PSU's was better, and it would be even better if they merged both in next game, for example.

Ryna
Jan 7, 2011, 01:15 PM
Let's keep the discussion focused on talking about Forces and Force Gameplay Mechanics. If you want to talk about PSO and PSU's general flaws, create another topic.

Kimil Adrayne
Jan 7, 2011, 01:36 PM
Edit: Sorry, was still typing my message when you wrote this.


Let's keep the discussion focused on talking about Forces and Force Gameplay Mechanics. If you want to talk about PSO and PSU's general flaws, create another topic.


Original post:


Hey, I liked PSU, don't get me wrong. It just wasn't as memorable for me as PSO was for me and many others.

I'm only talking about PSU and PSU AotI, not PSP2. PSP2 had many changes that I agreed with: removal of the PSU synth system, down scaling number of classes, removal of tech leveling for "hunted" tech disks like PSO and an attempt at making re skinned techs have some variance.

A lot of what you say are management flaws in PSU I still say simply stem from a bad design in the beginning, leading to difficulty managing and balancing the game after implementation.

WB syndrome wasn't simply in the case of White Beast, remember Crimson Beast before it? WB syndrome stemmed from the MP and class leveling design. The way it was implemented wasn't the best. It could have been fixed with management, but it still stemmed from a bad set up. MP should not have been awarded on a basis of which level you completed. Something similar to this was a problem in PSO, TTF parties.

Vehicles were a gimmic at best by their design. They were nothing but a bad mini game from the ones I got to try. They could have managed in a crappy minigame mission I guess, oh wait! they did in an event I think... Can't remember the name of that one.

How many base designs did PSU have for their monsters? I don't count the endless number of reskins as brand new monsters (Quality versus quantity). Also, just because laziness is common in games, doesn't matter to me. I'd rather they'd strive for more than mediocrity. PSO reskins were often variations of the same species of monster in the same area (not assumed a brand new type of monster, just a seasoned member of that type of monster). In PSU you would find monsters on 3 planets that are suppose to be an unrelated species altogether but mysteriously fight all the same way. Limitations of the PS2 system aren't an excuse, it shouldn't have been on the PS2 in the firstplace. PSO ep1 had 4 areas, within those areas I'd be temped to say there were more unique (aka, non-reskin) monsters than PSU all together.

Number of techs in PSU? Well you have the basic one for each element, Ra, Gi, Dam, Nosu, Resta, Reverser,Giresta, Regrants, Buffs, Debuffs. Sure, 11. In PSO? Every attack tech was unique. therefor: Foie, Gifoie, Rafoie, Barta, Gibarta, Rabarta, Zonde, Gizonde, Razonde, Resta, Anti, Reverser, buffs, debuffs, Ryuker, Megid, Grants. 17., 15 if you argue that Megid was too similar to Foie, and Grants was too similar to Zonde.

I'm on the side saying fusing techs to weapons wasn't the best route to take. It made for a lot of weapon switching and annoyance. This is an oppinion matter, but I like PSO's (specifically PSO bb, with more keys) method.

If you think that raredrops-method of finding items in a game is boring, why were you playing PSU? Everything was about finding the "shinny rare". Disks in PSO weren't even difficult to come by; upon reaching a new difficulty, higher leveled disks dropped.

Darki
Jan 9, 2011, 11:51 AM
So I'll answer only to the force related stuff then:

About the type, you did somehow a bit of a weak count. Each basic attack is unique, at least as you said before, wanna count Megid and Foie as different in PSO, and also Rabarta and Razonde weren't "that" different when I played.

So using your own way to count TECHs, in those terms Foie, Diga, Zonde and Barta are pretty much different (even if it's slighty, because of trajectory issues). Megid was just a slow Zonde, so that doesn't count. So you have four. Then you have Ra, Gi and Dam, 7. Nos, I'm sorry but I can't put Nosdiga with the other two because it's really different, I'd count two more, 9. Resta, Giresta, Reverser, debuffs, there you have 13 types. I fail to count normal buffs in the same "type" as Megistar and Dizas/Rentis, so those would be 3 more: 16. AND, Regrants and Megiverse aren't similar to any other, there you have 18 types of spells, my friend.

But hey, I'm not trying to prove wrong people that say PSU spells were not so unique, because it's true, PSU have more spell designs, but has also much more spells, so in proportion PSU spell system was too "homogeneous". I'd like to see more differences between them even being from the same tier. Thankfully, the trend in PSPo2 is giving cool and different spells now, as you can see most new spells are completely different even sharing the prefix, so we can all be happy about that.

Finally, about the wand linking TECHs, as I said, I prefer that kind of because it makes more sense to me, but specially, because I'd like to see how to fit a "fast" way to use the many shortcuts you had in PSOBB in a gamepad. I wouldn't like to come back to play by keyboard (that would be the REAL game-killer to me), and if you're telling me that to use spells I gotta leave the gamepad and start using the F1~9 hotkeys, I would like the idea even less. Any other method to add this in the little amount of gamepad's buttons would limit the number of spells directly aviable the same way as if you were using the PSU system.

Kent
Jan 9, 2011, 09:02 PM
So I'll answer only to the force related stuff then:

About the type, you did somehow a bit of a weak count. Each basic attack is unique, at least as you said before, wanna count Megid and Foie as different in PSO, and also Rabarta and Razonde weren't "that" different when I played.

So using your own way to count TECHs, in those terms Foie, Diga, Zonde and Barta are pretty much different (even if it's slighty, because of trajectory issues). Megid was just a slow Zonde, so that doesn't count. So you have four. Then you have Ra, Gi and Dam, 7. Nos, I'm sorry but I can't put Nosdiga with the other two because it's really different, I'd count two more, 9. Resta, Giresta, Reverser, debuffs, there you have 13 types. I fail to count normal buffs in the same "type" as Megistar and Dizas/Rentis, so those would be 3 more: 16. AND, Regrants and Megiverse aren't similar to any other, there you have 19 types of spells, my friend.

But hey, I'm not trying to prove wrong people that say PSU spells were not so unique, because it's true, PSU have more spell designs, but has also much more spells, so in proportion PSU spell system was too "homogeneous". I'd like to see more differences between them even being from the same tier.
Yes, the homogeneity of techniques is a massive problem in PSU (I wouldn't really count its implementations of Zonde and Barta as being all that different - at least with Diga, it's easily possible to miss small targets completely by shooting over them) - it's almost literally "adding more stuff for the sake of adding more stuff," without giving it the variety that techniques need to have. There's a bit of this going on with PSU's weapon selection, too, which could stand some thinning-out (or alternatively, sprucing-up).

Finally, about the wand linking TECHs, as I said, I prefer that kind of because it makes more sense to me, but specially, because I'd like to see how to fit a "fast" way to use the many shortcuts you had in PSOBB in a gamepad. I wouldn't like to come back to play by keyboard (that would be the REAL game-killer to me), and if you're telling me that to use spells I gotta leave the gamepad and start using the F1~9 hotkeys, I would like the idea even less. Any other method to add this in the little amount of gamepad's buttons would limit the number of spells directly aviable the same way as if you were using the PSU system.
Well, if you look at PSO, you might notice that it was designed around a Dreamcast controller. Dreamcast controllers have two triggers and no shoulder buttons.

Modern game controllers are a bit different. The obvious solution is that we can easily just assign the two shoulder buttons to swapping out the action palette. RB for one set of four shortcuts, LB for one set of four shortcuts, and RB+LB for one more set of four shortcuts. Suddenly, we have your base palette, and then 12 more assignable buttons to use - and this is ignoring the right trigger, completely, which could be used for whatever the game needs (using your alternate weapon if sticking with a PSU-style dual-wielding system - which could easily lend itself to adding another full set of 12 RB/LB/RB+LB shortcuts), and of course the left trigger for centering the camera and engaging camera lock.

If you think about this in terms of being a Force, this will easily give you access to most of the techniques you'll typically need instant-access to, as a lot of Forces will go into an area already knowing what techniques they're going to use the most. This is especially important for people playing a hybrid-style class, because they'll need buttons for their various attack types, as well (and, if they have any sort of PAs or special attacks, they'll need shortcuts for them, as well).

Shadownami92
Jan 20, 2011, 09:12 AM
Finally, about the wand linking TECHs, as I said, I prefer that kind of because it makes more sense to me, but specially, because I'd like to see how to fit a "fast" way to use the many shortcuts you had in PSOBB in a gamepad. I wouldn't like to come back to play by keyboard (that would be the REAL game-killer to me), and if you're telling me that to use spells I gotta leave the gamepad and start using the F1~9 hotkeys, I would like the idea even less. Any other method to add this in the little amount of gamepad's buttons would limit the number of spells directly aviable the same way as if you were using the PSU system.

The only real beef that I had with wand linking TECHs was that I personally preferred casting spells fast without having to switch to a wand (I always played as a melee/battle force in PSO). Granted that is slightly overcome with those mag looking things that were put on the leg hand slot, but that puts a bit of a damper on when I would like to use a 2 handed weapon and use spells in my same weapon set up.

I know it doesn't really make as much sense in terms of being more useful in fights but I just preferred how awesome my character looks when he could cut people down with a double saber or scythe and then be able to just bust out a spell while I'm still holding my favored melee weapon. Granted it's all personal preference I'm hoping they have a system where I can use spells somehow while uses 2 handed melee weapons.