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•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 07:54 PM
So... Yeah... I know many of you hate PSU and anything PSU related, but I really think the Beast race deserves to return is PSO2. I made a topic about this in the PSU forum, back when PSO2 rumors were still floating around, and I was met with a lot of negative responses...

One of the biggest complaints I saw about Beasts was that they had the Nanoblast.... Which apparently was such a big advantage, that there was no point in playing as a Human, Cast, or Newman... Which was of course completely untrue, but... Even if it were true, Nanoblast got really toned down in Phantasy Star Portable 2, and even if it really was a big deal, it wouldn't have to return in PSO2 either...

I know it really wouldn't make much sense if PSO2 takes place DIRECTLY after PSO... But if PSO takes even just 50 years after PSO2, then they could just say that Beasts were created then... After all, they were already bio-engineering plenty of Newmans.

But anyway... How would other people feel if Beasts did or didn't return in PSO2? Does anyone have a really good reason for wanting them to not make an appearance?

BIG OLAF
Nov 30, 2010, 07:58 PM
Prepare for the hardcore PSOers to rage all over your face.

But, I want the Beasts to be in PSO2. Mostly for the dumb reason that I think the Beast girls look the most attractive (no, that's seriously my reason). That, and it's good to have a "tough guy" class that can take a more serious beating than the other races.

Also, I will agree that Nanoblasts were inferior to CAST SUVs. SUVs were quick, destructive, and to-the-point. Nanoblasts took a long time to execute, and attack with. On top of that, a high level Beast would actually do less damage in Nanoblast mode.

FOkyasuta
Nov 30, 2010, 08:09 PM
I think they could put beasts back in but who knows what sega might do to them? As far as i'm concerned i hope they do not pull off there of there so called "class balancing act" on that race. Sure there overpowered and what not but a standard PSO HUcast had more ata than a beast if they were compared side by side. So yeah i say we wait and see what sega will do to the race.



But, I want the Beasts to be in PSO2. Mostly for the dumb reason that I think the Beast girls look the most attractive (no, that's seriously my reason). That, and it's good to have a "tough guy" class that can take a more serious beating than the other races.

So true.

Lance813
Nov 30, 2010, 08:13 PM
If the return of beasts meant that PSO2 would use PSU's job system then NO. Big no...

I don't want to see that class system ever again... I hate it...

However, If they fit to the storyline and they used the PSO art-style and made them look sweet as hell, I would be all for it. Whoever is making the game would have to implement some sort of class system for them...

It would be cool to see Beast classes like: HUbeast, RAbeast, and FObeast, but they would have to do it right... FObeast could be more of a battle-mage type class. More fighting to get your combo chain up, then loose a spell on the target right after. Of course, they can't be better than the rest of the FO classes just because they too MUCH less damage.

Nanoblasts would fly with me too...

•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 08:13 PM
Prepare for the hardcore PSOers to rage all over your face.

*cough*... Yeah.... I'm expecting to receive a lot of negative comments again... But really, their hate for Beasts is unjustified.... It's not like their inclusion is was made PSU "bad"....

Also yeah, I think HUbeast, RAbeast, and FObeast could really work out. HUbeast is obvious... RAbeast could be a Fighgunner-esque class, and like Lance813 said, FObeast could be a battle-mage class, kind of like HUnewearl, but more magic-based...

Also yeah, PSU's job system is really stupid. But PSP2's system is SO MUCH better. If you don't know how it works, there are 4 classes that you can switch between at any time: Hunter, Ranger, Force, and Vanguard(which is a mixture of the other three classes). Each class can also learn to use any weapon-type. It really works out because each class have focused races... Beast makes the best Hunters, Casts make the best Rangers, Newmans make the best Forces, and Humans make the best Vanguards... Of course, you could mix any race and class and you'd have SOME sort of advantage.

Lance813
Nov 30, 2010, 08:18 PM
If beast hunters are made defensive, lumbering, and very slow attacking I would love for them to be in PSO2.

I'm sure hardcore PSOers like myself would welcome this. (To an extent)

If the classes play well, I will shit my pants and post pictures upon this games release... Srsly. :wacko:

BIG OLAF
Nov 30, 2010, 08:18 PM
*cough*... Yeah.... I'm expecting to receive a lot of negative comments again... But really, their hate for Beasts is unjustified.... It's not like their inclusion is was made PSU "bad"....

Yeah, but the real hardcore PSOers don't want anything from the "trainwreck" that was PSU in their immaculate, beautiful, perfect PSO2...

...even though, in all honesty, PSO2 is probably going to be more like PSU/P2 than the original PSO. They'll see, and I'll chuckle lightly to myself.

Broken_L_button
Nov 30, 2010, 08:22 PM
Prepare for the hardcore PSOers to rage all over your face.

Heh, that's unavoidable, really.

Anyways, I'd like them to be there. Why? Simply for more variety. Getting the same old 3 races gets a little...Monotonous. I like the casts, humans and newmans (actually, I have more of a soft spot for casts), don't take me wrong, but keeping it to only that would be a step closer to PSO2 being no more than a PSO remake. And I, for one, wouldn't want to spend a penny to play a remake of a 10-year old game I could play for free on my GC or on the private servers. And using nostalgia as an excuse to re-vomit the same old stuff over and over again is unacceptable. Yeah, having old levels, weapons and other stuff from PSO is all good and all, but don't use it to justify not adding new things. Well, that's how I see it. Went a bit on a tangent there, though, hehe.

MAXrobo
Nov 30, 2010, 08:31 PM
I wouldnt mind having beasts in PSO2. though if they are put in i think they will need to change Casts quite a bit to balence it. in PSO casts where generaly better at almost everything, and it was balenced by having them not use techs. in PSU the problem was that Beasts had similar stats to casts, sometimes better, plus they didnt have the drawback of not having techs. basicly, beasts would need to get much less accuracy and evade. while Casts would need less power, and more defence/accuracy.

on Nanoblasts, im hoping they go back to mags and the photon blast system as opposed to having equiptable specials like SUV/nanoblasts. though it might be cool to have a PB similar to a nanoblast that gave you a huge shifta boost or temperary invincibility. then again, somthing like that could very easly turn out to be overpowered or worthless if not done right.

•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 09:00 PM
I wouldnt mind having beasts in PSO2. though if they are put in i think they will need to change Casts quite a bit to balence it. in PSO casts where generaly better at almost everything, and it was balenced by having them not use techs. in PSU the problem was that Beasts had similar stats to casts, sometimes better, plus they didnt have the drawback of not having techs. basicly, beasts would need to get much less accuracy and evade. while Casts would need less power, and more defence/accuracy.

on Nanoblasts, im hoping they go back to mags and the photon blast system as opposed to having equiptable specials like SUV/nanoblasts. though it might be cool to have a PB similar to a nanoblast that gave you a huge shifta boost or temperary invincibility. then again, somthing like that could very easly turn out to be overpowered or worthless if not done right.

In PSP2, they balanced the races pretty well. Beasts have the highest Evasion and Attack stats, and pretty high HP and DEF, but really suck with PP, ACC, TEC, and MND stats... Casts have the Highest HP and ACC, high DEF and ATK, but have really low TEC, MND, and PP stats and REALLY suck with EVA. Newmans have really high TEC, EVA, and PP stats, high ACC and MND, but have the worst HP, ATK, and DEF. Finally, Humans have the highest DEF and MND, and have pretty good stats in every other area...

Anyway, those Photon Blasts dont sound ridiculous at all. There was already the one Photon Blast that gives a high Shifta/Deband boost.... Plus, invicibility isnt that cheap. After all, you could get in PSO just for maxing out your Photon Blast gauge.

MAXrobo
Nov 30, 2010, 09:27 PM
thanks for that update Colaya. I havent played the PSP games, so i was only going off PSU stuff from 2 years ago ^^;

Demon-
Nov 30, 2010, 10:22 PM
As long as they keep the races and classes balanced then I see no reason why not. I think it will give the game that much more depth in gameplay. The game will have better character balance with the 4 races. I know for me playing as a Beast on PSU was when I had the most fun. The nanoblasts were great addition to the battle system I thought. The only complant I had was they didn't last very long but they fixed that eventually. I know they weren't in the original PSO but so what. The Beast race date all the way back to the classic Phantasy Star games on the Genesis/Mega Drive and I believe they deserve to have a permanent spot in all future PS games.

DuRaL
Nov 30, 2010, 10:33 PM
if it was PSU2, then yes, please bring back beast!

but since this is PSO2, and since it seems to be a direct sequel to PSO, it MUST be humans, newmans and Cast. there's simply no other way! or how should they explain the sudden appearance of a beast-race in the story? like the beast-spaceship landed on Ragol and they decided to join forces with the hunters? or Ash having *** with a cat? wtf, no sega, please don't!

that's just my opinion... the opinion of a guy who actually liked PSO's story and doesn't want Sega to mess it up with PSO2..

•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 10:57 PM
if it was PSU2, then yes, please bring back beast!

but since this is PSO2, and since it seems to be a direct sequel to PSO, it MUST be humans, newmans and Cast. there's simply no other way! or how should they explain the sudden appearance of a beast-race in the story? like the beast-spaceship landed on Ragol and they decided to join forces with the hunters? or Ash having *** with a cat? wtf, no sega, please don't!

that's just my opinion... the opinion of a guy who actually liked PSO's story and doesn't want Sega to mess it up with PSO2..

... I already explained how they could show up. Yeah, it wouldn't work if PSO2 took place, like... THE DAY AFTER Episode 3 PSO...

But even with just a few decades, they could easily fit them in. In the original PSO, Newmans were being biologically created. In between Episodes 1,2,4 and 3(which takes place 20 years later), scientists could've been developing a new race.

If PSO takes place at least 30-50 years after Episode 3, it wouldn't be absurd for Beasts to appear at all.

This again, of course, is assuming that PSO2 actually takes place on Ragol/Pioneer 2 to begin with.

Wayu
Nov 30, 2010, 11:00 PM
Beasts will most likely return in PSO2, as (I've been saying this a lot, haven't I?) Portable 2 Infinity will connect the PSP/PSU universe to the PSO one. You can search the PSPo2i discussion topic in the PSP forum section for that quote from Mike somewhere. It was a looooooong time ago, though...

-Wayu

FOkyasuta
Nov 30, 2010, 11:01 PM
My guess is that they'll enter via dimensional rifts or somethin.

Wayu
Nov 30, 2010, 11:06 PM
Nope.

Remember that subspace jump? I'm pretty sure that since your character is most likely coming from the PSP/PSU universe, you can choose to be a Beast. Dunno about more Beasts, though, they might come in other subspace jumps or something.

-Wayu

•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 11:28 PM
Nope.

Remember that subspace jump? I'm pretty sure that since your character is most likely coming from the PSP/PSU universe, you can choose to be a Beast. Dunno about more Beasts, though, they might come in other subspace jumps or something.

-Wayu

Well, PSO2 doesn't have to take place directly after PSP2i either. Maybe after Emilia goes through subspace, the people of Ragol/Pioneer 2 and the people from the Gurhal system begin working together to achieve their own goals or whatever, giving plenty of time for Beasts to fly over to Ragol, lol.

Wayu
Nov 30, 2010, 11:37 PM
Subspace jump sounds kind of really, REALLY fast to me. Unless Gurhal's subspace technology transports large objects faster...

Yeah, it doesn't have to happen directly after PSPo2i, but it's going to be linked. Meaning Emilia and the gang are going to bump into something, and that something is going to have to have Beasts and Dewmans on/in it. Maybe its the character's racial choice that can potentially make him/her the first Beast/Dewman in the new place, or maybe not. We'll have to see. This is all speculation at this point...

-Wayu

•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 11:43 PM
Subspace jump sounds kind of really, REALLY fast to me. Unless Gurhal's subspace technology transports large objects faster...

Yeah, it doesn't have to happen directly after PSPo2i, but it's going to be linked. Meaning Emilia and the gang are going to bump into something, and that something is going to have to have Beasts and Dewmans on/in it. Maybe its the character's racial choice that can potentially make him/her the first Beast/Dewman in the new place, or maybe not. We'll have to see. This is all speculation at this point...

-Wayu

Yes, when I said that there was a lot of time for Beasts to appear in the Ragol system, I meant that even though Emilia could travel to Ragol... PSO2 could take place over a hundred years after Gurhal first made contact with the Pioneer2.

Anyway the point is, Sega could easily make Beasts fit into PSO2's story without it being totally absurd or ridiculous.

Crystal_Shard
Nov 30, 2010, 11:46 PM
I'll have no problem if beasts do appear in PSO2, but I'm far more concerned that Sega will only expend a token effort to explain their appearance in the PSO canon, and we'll end up with a broken origin story that craps on PSO's groundwork.

The main thing that concerns me is the all important question:

If PSO2 is a direct sequel, what is the reason for the beast race to exist?

PSO never had beasts in canon. Therefore if they appear, what is their origin? Are they a completely new race genetically modified like the newmans (and also like in PSU)? Are they a mutated race akin to the dewmans in PSPo2i (via something like De Rol Le)?

Without a proper origin, adding the beast race would seriously weaken the narrative of PSO2 and compromise the foundation laid by the original.

Given the info about the subspace jump from PSPo2, that would be a plausible way for them to appear, and the info that PSPo2i will link to PSO certainly backs up that assumption. If it comes true, I too hope it simply acts as a background to add Gurhal tech and races logically to Coral and Ragol canon, and not as a "Oh look! Little Wing/Guardians have arrived at Ragol and we need to team up ASAP against the latest Dark Falz flavour" story mode. Because that would really suck very, very badly methinks.


----------------------------

And on another note...

Shouldn't Beasts and Newmans actually be considered one and the same?

In the original PS series, numans are basically biomonsters with high intelligence. Musk Cat DNA combined with what I assume to be Palman DNA. They were never meant to be high INT tech/spell casters based on the skills that Nei and Fals had, and were more high growth, resilient, strong, and tough to kill. Sounds a lot like the beasts we know today don't they? Also, numan ears have some resemblance to Beast ears if you stretch it just a little.

PSO was the one that changed the paradigm, with newmans becoming more like the tech oriented race we see in PSPo2. They became more space elf like, in balancing out their affinity to techs, since if kept the same as the original (as in physically strong like biomonsters as well), it would make humans basically useless.

PSU simply made the distinction more obvious, giving newmans even more of the space elf role, but at the same time brought back the more traditional numan in the form of Beasts. (who in PSU/PSP1 look more like the kyantaur race from the Shining Force series imo) And technically speaking, both newmans and beasts are both genetically enhanced human offshoots, based on the story and so could be considered both "numans".

The more interesting route they could take to me would be for them to evolve the PSO newmans back to the original PS newmans, and give them the heavy hitter role (which would make them into the beast race as a side effect), while leaving the jack of all trades role to humans, as well as giving them humans the tech oriented/magic role that they had in the original PS as well. However, given that PSPo2i is planned to link the PSO and PSU canons together, I see this to be quite unlikely, no matter how appealing it would be to old school PS fans.

•Col•
Nov 30, 2010, 11:56 PM
Why exactly were Newmans created again, anyway? I think it was mentioned in like.... The game manual or something, but I can't remember anymore.

And if scientists DID bio-engineer Beasts for PSO2, they could just take one out of PSU's book, and the reasoning behind it could be to use them for manual labor to help colonize Ragol or something, lol.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 12:25 AM
The Newmans were created as totally superior artificial humans, originally in PSU. The humans then got jealous and took away their physical superiority.

I'm fairly sure that PSO2's Beasts will be of Gurhal origin. 1) It's SEGA and 2) it's really the only plausible way, as its unlikely that the people Emilia and gang encounter will have the same idea of the Gurhal people of old and 3) it's SEGA. They're lazy.

-Wayu

Crystal_Shard
Dec 1, 2010, 12:25 AM
@ Colaya, I can't recall either unfortunately. Aside from the original DC ver., I have not bought any US version of PSO or its spinoffs due to the disparity of events and special items between the JP and US version of any of the games. My Japanese isn't good enough to do a direct manual translation, and some of my stuff is kept in hard to reach boxes as well. I might try to squeeze out some kind of understanding from one of the settings material books another time though.

We might need to look further forward though. I seem to recall hearing PSZ being a prequel of sorts to PSO, and it might have some explanation. I played the JP version with only partial understanding of the background.

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 12:34 AM
We might need to look further forward though. I seem to recall hearing PSZ being a prequel of sorts to PSO, and it might have some explanation. I played the JP version with only partial understanding of the background.

PSZ was actually a semi-sequel to PSO. It took place on Coral, the home planet of the people aboard the Pioneer ships, long after the Pioneer Project had left the planet. I would go into a deeper explanation, but I don't want to spoil or anything.


Shouldn't Beasts and Newmans actually be considered one and the same?

Nope. That's why they're called "Beasts" and "Newmans". Beasts excel in physical damage, and Newmans excel in magical damage. A PSU/PSO "Newman" is not equal to a PSI-IV "Numan".


high growth, resilient, strong, and tough to kill. Sounds a lot like the beasts we know today don't they? Also, numan ears have some resemblance to Beast ears if you stretch it just a little.

But the ears are fuzzy, and the Beasts have dog-like faces. Numans didn't. Sure the "strong", "resilient", etc. facts are similar, but Numans are from Algol, and Algol didn't play any part in PSO, or PSU (except for a tidbit of history here and there). Beasts are completely separate, and the likeness in power to Numans are pure coincidence. Also, the Humans of Gurhal created the Beasts, and the Humans of Gurhal have no connection to the Humans of Algol, either.

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 12:50 AM
Also, the Humans of Gurhal created the Beasts, and the Humans of Gurhal have no connection to the Humans of Algol, either.

Well, technically, they could be. The Ancient Race mentioned in PSP2 created the people of the Gurhal system, and we don't really know much about them...... For all we know, that Ancient Race are the descendants of the people from Algol/Coral/Ragol or whatever.

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 12:52 AM
Well, technically, they could be. The Ancient Race mentioned in PSP2 created the people of the Gurhal system, and we don't really know much about them...... For all we know, that Ancient Race are the descendants of the people from Algol/Coral/Ragol or whatever.

Those would be The Ancients from PSP2, but I don't think they ever explain exactly where they come from. I'm guessing that they were created by The Holy Light, though, as they don't exactly look like the Algolians or Coralians.

Mika & Wynarl, two of The Ancients, as an example:

[SPOILER-BOX] http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mika.jpg http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wynarl.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 12:59 AM
Uhm...

Coral people = humans...

-Wayu

Crystal_Shard
Dec 1, 2010, 01:02 AM
PSZ was actually a semi-sequel to PSO. It took place on Coral, the home planet of the people aboard the Pioneer ships, long after the Pioneer Project had left the planet. I would go into a deeper explanation, but I don't want to spoil or anything.

Mind if you PM me with those spoilers? Would be nice to see if I did get the correct references even from my limited understanding. ^^



Nope. That's why they're called "Beasts" and "Newmans". Beasts excel in physical damage, and Newmans excel in magical damage. A PSU/PSO "Newman" is not equal to a PSI-IV "Numan".

But the ears are fuzzy, and the Beasts have dog-like faces. Numans didn't. Sure the "strong", "resilient", etc. facts are similar, but Numans are from Algol, and Algol didn't play any part in PSO, or PSU (except for a tidbit of history here and there). Beasts are completely separate, and the likeness in power to Numans are pure coincidence. Also, the Humans of Gurhal created the Beasts, and the Humans of Gurhal have no connection to the Humans of Algol, either.

Ah, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean to imply that the Gurhal Beasts and Newmans are in anyway directly linked to the numans of Algol (well just the two really, unless Fals ended up overbreeding ^^), but that traits wise, the numan of Algol resembles the beast of Gurhal. For all that I like newmans in their current form, I've always found it odd that Sega decided to change them into a tech oriented race, and was basically wishing for a return to the original concept.

The question was basically floating the idea that from the perspective of Sega, Beasts and Newmans are technically two versions of numans with different traits, and making one redundant + redistributing the remaining traits would streamline the existing system and make each race even more unique. (Humans - Jack of all trades and good at Techs/Magic ; Beast/Newman/Numan - Fast, evasive, strong physical attacker with some tech ability ; Casts/Android - High durability, accuracy, no techs, but has unique traps/parts)

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 01:03 AM
Those would be The Ancients from PSP2, but I don't think they ever explain exactly where they come from. I'm guessing that they were created by The Holy Light, though, as they don't exactly look like the Algolians or Coralians.

Mika & Wynarl, two of The Ancients, as an example:

[SPOILER-BOX] http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mika.jpg http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wynarl.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

That's what I'm saying, though. We don't know anything about the Ancients, really. Even playing through the game, I thought they were kind of mysterious. That's why I'm betting they're a key part to connecting PSU to PSO in PSP2i...

But anyway, this is kind of getting off topic. Just because Beasts may not actually have a bloodline connection back to the Algolians... Doesn't mean they can't appear in PSO2, lol. And even if they weren't technically Beasts, there were still animal-like races in the original Phantasy Star games.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 01:07 AM
To summarize:

Newmans =/= Beasts =/= Numans

Beasts will most likely return, along with Dewmans, in PSO2. Their most likely origin is the player character, having entered whatever place with Emilia and the rest of the subspace crew.

Is this right?

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 01:18 AM
To summarize:

Newmans =/= Beasts =/= Numans

Beasts will most likely return, along with Dewmans, in PSO2. Their most likely origin is the player character, having entered whatever place with Emilia and the rest of the subspace crew.

Is this right?

-Wayu

Hopefully. I don't want them to exclude Beasts so quickly after introducing them, as they're my favorite race as of now. I hope Sega does a good job of integrating Gurhal with the PSO story (as I'm convinced that PSO2 won't be on Ragol, as Ragol, which was the dark planet Rykros, went KABLOOIE at the end of PSU's Epi.3 storyline) via PSP2i.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 01:23 AM
Wait, since when was Ragol that obscene lump of purple? I don't think it was mentioned anywhere in PSU Ep. III...then again, I've never played it soooo...

-Wayu

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 01:28 AM
Hopefully. I don't want them to exclude Beasts so quickly after introducing them, as they're my favorite race as of now. I hope Sega does a good job of integrating Gurhal with the PSO story (as I'm convinced that PSO2 won't be on Ragol, as Ragol, which was the dark planet Rykros, went KABLOOIE at the end of PSU's Epi.3 storyline) via PSP2i.

Uh. Never really heard that, but... Even if it was, PSU could take place thousands of years after PSO... So it's not impossible for PSO2 to take place on Ragol/Pioneer2 again.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 01:32 AM
We don't know what PSU/PSP's time relation to PSO is, so we shouldn't make assumptions here. Also, let's get back on topic.

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 01:35 AM
Wait, since when was Ragol that obscene lump of purple? I don't think it was mentioned anywhere in PSU Ep. III...then again, I've never played it soooo...

-Wayu

Well, it's never officially said, but the data from the MAG mission on PSU was apparently found "on Rykros' surface", and the data was the PSO areas (Forest, Cave, Mines, Ruins). Not to mention that some of the PSO monster logs on PSP2 speak about the monsters being found on Rykros. Specifically, the Evil Shark (and others, too). It says: "records of this creature were also found on Rykros".

To me, that's all pretty solid evidence. So, until proven otherwise, Rykros=Ragol (in my mind).

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 01:43 AM
While I do like to speculate about possible connections between PSO and PSU.... There are plenty of other topics to discuss that.

BEASTS CAN EASILY BE FIT INTO PSO2'S STORY WITHOUT IT BEING CONVOLUTED

So there. I don't really want to see anymore talk arguing otherwise, lol. This topic is about your opinion on Beasts, if you want them to return or not, and the reasoning for your decision.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 01:45 AM
^

THANK YOU. Now we can actually get back on topic. No sarcasm intended.

Beasts would be a welcome addition to PSO2, as (probably) would Dewmans. I just hope they don't introduce yet another race.

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 01:51 AM
So there. I don't really want to see anymore talk arguing otherwise, lol.

It wasn't an argument at all. An "argument" would imply one or more involved parties being angry. No one was angry. I was merely informing other of my theories. It was more a friendly debate than anything. Anyway:


Beasts would be a welcome addition to PSO2, as (probably) would Dewmans. I just hope they don't introduce yet another race.

-Wayu

Yes, yet another race would probably only cause problems. Honestly, I'm still not sure if even adding Dewmans to PSP2i is a good idea in itself. And, it's good that this thread wasn't filled with 95% PSO Fanboy RAEG at Colaya's original post. I'm thoroughly surprised by that fact.

Bottom line for me: Beasts are my favorite race due to the fact that female Beasts look the prettiest to me (yeah, yeah, whatever! But that's my main reason! Get over it :nono:.), and I always enjoy a race that can crush skulls left and right, as those are my favorite types of characters to make in Action RPGs such as Phantasy Star games. And if my character can look sexy doing it (yeah, yeah), then it's 10x better.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 01:53 AM
Olaf, Colaya wanted argument over whether Beasts would be good in PSO2 or not. He wasn't saying we were arguing. Nothing in this topic comes close to that, actually, which is a mixed good/bad thing.

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 01:56 AM
Olaf, Colaya wanted argument over whether Beasts would be good in PSO2 or not.

Reading his original post, it seems that he was stating his own opinion about the matter, and then asking other about their own. Nothing about "arguing" over it that I can see. He was just asking about people's views regarding Beasts in PSO2, no argumentative nature intended.

The Necris Process
Dec 1, 2010, 02:00 AM
Oh of course I'd want them to return. Beasts have been my favorite character type since PSU. Even though it becomes nearly useless late in the game, the concept of the nanoblast and how it works is awesome to me. I've had much more fun playing them and CASTs than I ever had as a newman or a boring ol' human.

Besides, more variety in terms of character choice (*while maintaining some kind of balance, of course) is simply better, imo. I'd hope for some new and/or different nanoblast forms as well.

Crystal_Shard
Dec 1, 2010, 02:05 AM
Hope I didn't come across as arguing either. But back to topic after one more slight diversion...

With humans, newmans, casts, and adding beasts, and potentially dewmans, another race added would only dilute the uniqueness of the existing ones. It would be a bad move on Sega's part imo. In fact, as I mentioned, I'm more in favour of changing PSO/PSU style newmans to beasts and giving the tech role to humans, thereby retaining only 3 races. However interesting I find dewmans, I think its a case of one too many races in the same pot.

--------------------------

I certainly have no problems with beasts returning, especially since they are a more trait-accurate recreation of the Algol numan, but I really could do with another major revision of the nanoblast, or perhaps removing them in favour of photon blasts for all races. (Maybe even races specific ones for better flavour)

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 02:10 AM
When I said "argue", I didn't mean any negativity by it. I meant arguing as in trying to persuade another;like you said, a debate.

The specific argument I was referring to was started by Dural, who said:

if it was PSU2, then yes, please bring back beast!


but since this is PSO2, and since it seems to be a direct sequel to PSO, it MUST be humans, newmans and Cast. there's simply no other way! or how should they explain the sudden appearance of a beast-race in the story? like the beast-spaceship landed on Ragol and they decided to join forces with the hunters? or Ash having *** with a cat? wtf, no sega, please don't!

He was saying that Beasts shouldn't appear in PSO2 because they couldn't fit into the story, and I tried to correct him... Which led the thread off on a huge tangent, lol.

The reason I created this thread is because I was under the impression that many PSO-purists hated Beasts simply because their first appearance was PSU. I was hoping to try to change those people's minds by making this thread. And yes, I'm surprised that no one has freaked out about it, yet. Maybe all them are asleep now? :( But yeah, I just wanted a topic for people to give their opinions on Beasts.

I can completely understand if someone doesn't like Beasts and don't want them to appear in PSO2. I just don't want people to hate Beasts just because they were in PSU, lol. :p

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 02:18 AM
Hope I didn't come across as arguing either. But back to topic after one more slight diversion...

With humans, newmans, casts, and adding beasts, and potentially dewmans, another race added would only dilute the uniqueness of the existing ones. It would be a bad move on Sega's part imo. In fact, as I mentioned, I'm more in favour of changing PSO/PSU style newmans to beasts and giving the tech role to humans, thereby retaining only 3 races. However interesting I find dewmans, I think its a case of one too many races in the same pot.

--------------------------

I certainly have no problems with beasts returning, especially since they are a more trait-accurate recreation of the Algol numan, but I really could do with another major revision of the nanoblast, or perhaps removing them in favour of photon blasts for all races. (Maybe even races specific ones for better flavour)

I would agree with you on the point that adding new races make the existing ones less individualized.... IF I didn't play PSP2. This is one of the reason's I like PSP2 so much... They REALLY balanced the Races and Classes together. Beasts fill the typical Hunter role, Casts fill the typical Ranger role, Newmans fill the typical Force role, and Humans are the Vanguards(Jack of all trades). This is also one reason why I'm not so sure about Dumans..... I liked the fact that there were 4 races, and 4 class types that matched up....

But anyway, in PSP2, they even gave each class a special blast attack... Although, Newmans and Humans share the same type(although they do differ slightly).

But in PSO2, there will most likely be Mags again, and that means Photon Blasts... Maybe there could be some race-specific Photon Blasts as well though.

There is another thing about Duman's appearance, though. They become the newcomers, replacing the Beasts, which helps to solidify the seniority of Beasts...

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 02:24 AM
The reason I created this thread is because I was under the impression that many PSO-purists hated Beasts simply because their first appearance was PSU. I was hoping to try to change those people's minds by making this thread....

....I just don't want people to hate Beasts just because they were in PSU, lol. :p

You're probably not going to change any PSOer's minds about Beasts. To the majority of them: if it was in PSU, then it was the devil and should be burned at the stake. Heaven forbid that Sega should try anything else new in their next game :-?, yeesh. Bad enough how they all almost had an aneurysm when PSU came out.

But, as I said in an earlier post of mine: PSO2 is most likely going to be much, much closer to PSU/P2 than original PSO in terms of overall gameplay mechanics and style. Hope the hardcore PSOers realize that.

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 02:28 AM
You're probably not going to change any PSOer's minds about Beasts. To the majority of them: if it was in PSU, then it was the devil and should be burned at the stake. Heaven forbid that Sega should try anything else new in their next game :-?, yeesh. Bad enough how they all almost had an aneurysm when PSU came out.

But, as I said in an earlier post of mine: PSO2 is most likely going to be much, much closer to PSU/P2 than original PSO in terms of overall gameplay mechanics and style. Hope the hardcore PSOers realize that.

I know it'd be hard to change their minds, but I wanted to at least take a crack at it.... But it seems there's none of them around, lol.

And I don't think it will be very PSU-ish... I think it's going to be closest to PSZero more than anything, myself, with some PSP2 mixed in.

Crystal_Shard
Dec 1, 2010, 02:47 AM
I would agree with you on the point that adding new races make the existing ones less individualized.... IF I didn't play PSP2. This is one of the reason's I like PSP2 so much... They REALLY balanced the Races and Classes together. Beasts fill the typical Hunter role, Casts fill the typical Ranger role, Newmans fill the typical Force role, and Humans are the Vanguards(Jack of all trades). This is also one reason why I'm not so sure about Dumans..... I liked the fact that there were 4 races, and 4 class types that matched up...

In PSPo2 they definitely did a good job making the races more unique and balanced with regards to classes (aside from the Force class imo , but that's off topic) and the dewmans will definitely throw a spanner in the works. I seriously doubt dewmans will appear in PSO2 because that means SEED may well be a major antagonist again, and I think I'd like a break from that and go back to D types again. XD

Beasts however, have a better chance of appearing, whether or not they remove nanoblasts, but I don't want there to be a situation of having both nanoblasts and photon blasts on one race, however tempting it would be.

@Olaf: Given PSZ as precedent, I think I'd have to agree with Colaya that we'll get a PSZ style game with the more successful features of PSPo2/PSPo2i thrown in for good measure. I think Sakai realizes the appeal of the original PSO and would not knowingly throw gameplay mechanics away lightly.

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 02:49 AM
I think Sakai realizes the appeal of the original PSO and would not knowingly throw gameplay mechanics away lightly.

Right, but he very well can't ignore the fact that PSU/P2's combat and overall gameplay style was a lot more free-flowing, and many players felt much more comfortable with that instead of the "1-2-3" timed button presses of PSO/Z.

Crystal_Shard
Dec 1, 2010, 03:08 AM
Right, but he very well can't ignore the fact that PSU/P2's combat and overall gameplay style was a lot more free-flowing, and many players felt much more comfortable with that instead of the "1-2-3" timed button presses of PSO/Z.

I doubt he'll throw away the good stuff from PSU/PSPo2, but he seems like the type to keep to fan expectations, and will likely keep the game more true to PSO rather than PSU. Still, I definitely see features from both series being included.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 03:13 AM
When I said "argue", I didn't mean any negativity by it. I meant arguing as in trying to persuade another;like you said, a debate.

That was my definition of 'argument' at the time as well.

Just a question: does anyone know if the combat interface will be a throw-back to PSO's or will it follow PSPo2's? If TP (the one that acted like mana) returns, then we're probably not going to have the dodge, which will affect whether or not having Beasts return will have an impact on me or not. Also, will the timed 'criticals' of PSU/PSP return or will it be Strong Attacks and Special Attacks again?

On a side note, I chose my avatar because I saw no one else using it. It's confusing when there's another person active in the topic that has the same avatar...

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 03:20 AM
Just a question: does anyone know if the combat interface will be a throw-back to PSO's or will it follow PSPo2's?.......

.......Also, will the timed 'criticals' of PSU/PSP return or will it be Strong Attacks and Special Attacks again?

I hope they keep PSU/P2's combat and interface. I hated PSO's (it was so clunky, and felt so out-dated), but PSZ's was a little more tolerable, but still a touch frustrating. But, to answer your question, no one knows what they're doing for PSO2 yet.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 03:25 AM
It's good to see that others share my sentiments about the battle system of PSO. I hope the PSPo2 system returns...

They do need to fix EX Traps, though. The version 1 JP EX Traps were absurd (I still have version 1, actually xD) and even post-version 2 they're still quite OP...

-Wayu

Msr. Bojangles
Dec 1, 2010, 03:29 AM
Not really directed at anyone in particular:

Oh joy, so the fact I enjoy PSO much more than PSU or PSP makes me some jaded fanboy that hates all of PSU without reason and disliked every little nuance to it without exception?
[/OFFTOPIC]

On Topic:

Well, my only major hangup on any 'xxbeast' or 'xxbeaseal' being in PSO2 is more along the lines of the fact that then they'd utterly destroy our long-established PSO class proficiencies, 'xxcasts/caseals' generally being the physical experts without exception, usually. I understand, we could move them to 'ATA/ACC' experts with second best physical attributes, but then what would be the point of a human? The only real draw to HUmars in PSO was the second highest ATP/ATA/EVP while still maintaining recovery techs. HUcasts would pretty much lose their only real flaw to their class: ATA, and they would STILL be incredible damage dealers, albeit much more reliable at landing those hits.

I might have a different view than some, but I'm just voicing my concerns about this idea, that's all. I don't care if they get in, as long as the implementation is right.


I hope they keep PSU/P2's combat and interface. I hated PSO's (it was so clunky, and felt so out-dated), but PSZ's was a little more tolerable, but still a touch frustrating. But, to answer your question, no one knows what they're doing for PSO2 yet.

Hrrrrm. I don't know, to this day, I can handle my interface in PSO with some finesse. I guess it's from my many exploits into the 'traditional' survival horrors, though.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 03:34 AM
I was a close-range FOnewearl in PSO...I didn't use strikers or anything, I just casted spells from close range and was pretty good at maneuvering around and between enemies to keep casting.

I didn't really like the static class thing of PSO, personally. I like my freedom to decide what class I'm going to be at what time and for what. Especially with Beasts and Dewmans in the game...

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 03:38 AM
Not really directed at anyone in particular:

Oh joy, so the fact I enjoy PSO much more than PSU or PSP makes me some jaded fanboy that hates all of PSU without reason and disliked every little nuance to it without exception?
[/OFFTOPIC]

No, not at all. It's just that it's begun to be expected around here that most people that prefer PSO over PSU have a certain way of spouting off their unbridled, almost deranged hate for PSU and everything about it.

If you're saying that you like PSO better than PSU, but don't absolutely despise PSU for it simply being "different", then hats off to you. You're one of the few, and it's appreciated that you can be civil about it, and respect others that think the opposite (as in, those who prefer PSU over PSO, like me).


Hrrrrm. I don't know, to this day, I can handle my interface in PSO with some finesse. I guess it's from my many exploits into the 'traditional' survival horrors, though.

This is only a guess, because I don't know how long ago you started playing PSO, but it's probably because you're used to the controls. I played PSU first, and that piqued my interest in PSO. Suffice to say, PSU's combat controls spoiled me, and I just could not get into the "1-2-3" groove of the attacking in PSO, or the healing item interface. Just me, though.

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 03:41 AM
Not really directed at anyone in particular:

Oh joy, so the fact I enjoy PSO much more than PSU or PSP makes me some jaded fanboy that hates all of PSU without reason and disliked every little nuance to it without exception?
[/OFFTOPIC]

No. If you hated PSU without reason and disliked every little nuance to it without exception, then you'd be a jaded fanboy. :P

It's fine to like PSO more than PSU. Even I do. I just don't like it when people hate every little aspect of PSU just because it had some problems. It's not like NOTHING was good about PSU, but a lot of people act that way.

And as far as class systems go.... They could mess things up if done wrong, but I'm sure they could make it work. I have a feeling that even if Beasts don't show up, they're going to alter the old classes anyway, mainly through stat changes. Didn't they already do this in PSZero actually, or am I wrong?

ZER0 DX
Dec 1, 2010, 03:43 AM
Well, it's never officially said, but the data from the MAG mission on PSU was apparently found "on Rykros' surface", and the data was the PSO areas (Forest, Cave, Mines, Ruins). Not to mention that some of the PSO monster logs on PSP2 speak about the monsters being found on Rykros. Specifically, the Evil Shark (and others, too). It says: "records of this creature were also found on Rykros".

To me, that's all pretty solid evidence. So, until proven otherwise, Rykros=Ragol (in my mind).

The final mission in episode 3 states that Rykros was originally a giant anti-seed battleship that was taken completely over by Falz and his seed minions due to it having a large A-photon reactor. The PSO areas were all just Dark Falz's memories taking a physical form due to it's influence on the Gurhal system. MAG was just a VR sim of compiled data found on Rykros, most likely of Falz's memories as well.

I guess you can imply that Rykros could have been one of the Pioneer ships. Possibly Pioneer 3 as in PSO, Hopkin's father mentioned it recently departed in Episode 2. It's very possible that on the way to find another homeworld, Pioneer 3 got slowly taken over by Falz.

Msr. Bojangles
Dec 1, 2010, 03:47 AM
No, not at all. It's just that it's began to be expected around here that most people that prefer PSO over PSU have a certain way of spouting off their unbridled, almost deranged hate for PSU and everything about it.

If you're saying that you like PSO better than PSU, but don't absolutely despise PSU for it simply being "different", then hats off to you. You're one of the few, and it's appreciated that you can be civil about it, and respect others that think the opposite (as in, those who prefer PSU over PSO, like me)

Ahaha, I vastly enjoyed PSO over PSU, but that does not mean I didn't enjoy PSU in some ways. I liked how much smoother weapon swapping was and the increased overall inventory space. (Or maybe it just felt increased to me...) I also did appreciate the smoother running and the 'not as liberal' application of traps.
*tips hat*




This is only a guess, because I don't know how long ago you started playing PSO, but it's probably because you're used to the controls. I played PSU first, and that piqued my interest in PSO. Suffice to say, PSU's combat controls spoiled me, and I just could not get into the "1-2-3" groove of the attacking in PSO. Just me, though.

Well, I've been playing for... Erm... Hmm.... *thinks* I'd say I've around 7 or so odd years experience, so that could be why.

(Offtopic note: ...Your username makes me recall Lost Vikings, and how amazingly broken Olaf the Stout was.)

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 03:48 AM
Ahh, I knew Pioneer 3 would worm its way into this topic sooner or later.

Anyways, we're once again getting off topic. I think someone should change the title of this topic to the 'PSO2 Discussion Topic'. Either that or I'll create one.

I think I'll do that.

-Wayu

BIG OLAF
Dec 1, 2010, 03:52 AM
Ahaha, I vastly enjoyed PSO over PSU, but that does not mean I didn't enjoy PSU in some ways. I liked how much smoother weapon swapping was and the increased overall inventory space. (Or maybe it just felt increased to me...) I also did appreciate the smoother running and the 'not as liberal' application of traps.

Yes, the things you mention here are what I want to be implemented in PSO2. Smooth weapon swapping, smoother character movement and combat. No more robotic walking and attacking, please Sega.


(Offtopic note: ...Your username makes me recall Lost Vikings, and how amazingly broken Olaf the Stout was.)

Ha! I remember that game. Me, my mom, and my dad would play the three player co-op back when I was a kid. By Olympus, that game was hard.

*cough*. Anyway.

Crystal_Shard
Dec 1, 2010, 03:56 AM
I can get used to the PSU style of interface... just as long as my techs are free to use without having to link with weapons. XD I have to admit I'm a bit rusty with the 1-2-3 style after being away for so long from PSO.

@Colaya: I'm sure they did tweak the classes in PSZ, but considering the main difference was to add the HuMArl, FoNewm, etc classes, I think there wasn't that much to tweak besides overpowering the Forces. You'd have the compare the raw stats to check though, methinks.

@Zero DX: Wouldn't the mission brief describing Rykros as a Anti SEED Battleship preclude it from being a Pioneer 3? It sounds like the AMF is aware of it, and is probably theirs to begin with.

Wayu
Dec 1, 2010, 03:56 AM
No more robotic walking and attacking, please Sega.


Yes, and no lightly jogging away from a dark god aiming his huge mother fucking arm guns at your puny face.

-Wayu

ZER0 DX
Dec 1, 2010, 05:20 AM
@Zero DX: Wouldn't the mission brief describing Rykros as a Anti SEED Battleship preclude it from being a Pioneer 3? It sounds like the AMF is aware of it, and is probably theirs to begin with.

It belonged to the ancients, actually. Though that still throws the Pioneer 3 theory out the window now that I think about it. Oh well.

16085k
Dec 1, 2010, 10:33 AM
I'll admit I don't like how beasts look, but I'm not gonna use that as a reason to argue they shouldn't be in PSO2. The only real problem I could see would be too many classes which would be hard to make unique and balanced. PSO had this problem with only 12, and PSZ had it even more (many of the classes are just worse versions of a counterpart, etc).

Googlebonker
Dec 1, 2010, 12:18 PM
I played PSO, and I wouldn`t mind seeing Beasts in PSO2 as long as it`s explained in the story. One of the big problems in PSU was balancing. If you had a Human and wanted to do a time run for one of SEGA`s events, you`d probably get a hefty "lolHuman goaway." Since it seems balancing will be something they`ll focus on in PSO2, maybe that will be remedied.

Shirai
Dec 1, 2010, 03:13 PM
I wouldn't want beasts. I'd rather have Sega keep it the old way, and maybe add a few new races/classes. But I don't want anymore Nanoblasts/SUVs, I'd prefer MAGs again.

Kent
Dec 1, 2010, 04:54 PM
I would say the problem with adding Beasts into a successor to PSO would be justifying their purpose there, from a game balance perspective.

Considering that with PSO, they stuck with three races placed properly apart from each other on the sliding scale of physical and technical proficiency, and had Androids quite effectively take up the roles of the high-HP/defense/power non-magical bruisers (which is basically the exact same role that Beasts would be having)... All of its archetypical bases were already covered.

Looking at PSO, part of its design was that in choosing a character race, you had to make a specific decision: Do I want to be better with techniques? Do I want to be physically-better, but unable to use techniques? Or do I want some mix of the two? The entire point of Androids being in the game was that they would sacrifice the ability to use techniques so that they could have a physical advantage (and then traps, which came into the picture in the latter releases of the game).

Now, looking at it from that perspective, where would Beasts fit in? Would they simply be able to be Hunters and Rangers that are between Humans and Androids in physical capability, but then being limited to level 10 techniques/having negligible-at-best levels of MST? It would really seem that Beasts simply don't have a place into which they can fit, if we're looking at things in the case of PSO's style of class system.

If you want physical superiority, you should play an Android, because that's exactly what you're getting from it. Unless Humans get shifted to be more technique-oriented than they should be (offsetting their balanced, middle-of-the-road nature that Humans should have) to make room for Beasts between them and Androids, there's not really a place for them.

Unless, of course, it's being proposed that Beasts should be superior to Androids in the physical department, yet somehow still having techniques. If the decision to have Beasts in the game comes down to hinging on giving Androids some huge advantage in ATA over everyone else, then that's a very weak justification indeed - especially if we're assuming that things like Nanoblasts and SUV Weapons aren't returning (which they should most definitely not, particularly if Photon Blasts are going to exist at all).

Ceresa
Dec 1, 2010, 05:14 PM
Casts having best ATA is a fine justification if they continue with the PSP2 style of ATA being the primary damage stat for guns. So you end with

Beast: Hunter
Newman: Force
Cast: Ranger
Human: Mediocrity

A bit better than Cast getting to excel in two things, newman in one, and human in none.

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 05:45 PM
Now, looking at it from that perspective, where would Beasts fit in? Would they simply be able to be Hunters and Rangers that are between Humans and Androids in physical capability, but then being limited to level 10 techniques/having negligible-at-best levels of MST? It would really seem that Beasts simply don't have a place into which they can fit, if we're looking at things in the case of PSO's style of class system.

If you want physical superiority, you should play an Android, because that's exactly what you're getting from it. Unless Humans get shifted to be more technique-oriented than they should be (offsetting their balanced, middle-of-the-road nature that Humans should have) to make room for Beasts between them and Androids, there's not really a place for them.

Unless, of course, it's being proposed that Beasts should be superior to Androids in the physical department, yet somehow still having techniques. If the decision to have Beasts in the game comes down to hinging on giving Androids some huge advantage in ATA over everyone else, then that's a very weak justification indeed - especially if we're assuming that things like Nanoblasts and SUV Weapons aren't returning (which they should most definitely not, particularly if Photon Blasts are going to exist at all).

Good points, but let's look at the actual roles first. Think about Hunters, Rangers, and Forces as a triangle. Humans would obviously be closer to the center, stretching into each direction, with one direction being dominant;they're not supposed to REALLY excel in anything. Humans are also the only ones that are in each class.

HUmar- Definitely the most rounded of the Hunters. Can take a decent beating, and still be able to use technics and guns semi-effectively.
RAmar- Best accuracy in the game, if I'm not mistaken. Aside from that though, he's pretty balance
RAmarl- Best evasion and MST in the Ranger class. She's kind of weird, though. She seems more like she should be a Newman to me. But again, she has the second best accuracy in the class.
FOmar- Highest ATP, however they have the lowest Defense...
FOmarl- Highest HP and ATA, second highest ATP...

Right, so my point is that Humans make for the most balanced classes in PSO, with actually a slight leaning toward Ranger, because they typically have the best(or at least 2nd best) accuracy in each of their respective classes. Although in PSO, ranged weapon damaged wasn't determined by Accuracy or ATA, so it wasn't like Humans really excelled at being Rangers either.

Back to the triangle. Forces obviously are leaning toward the Force corner. This is apparent even with the Hunewearl. That leaves Casts, who lean toward being the heavy-hitter/able to take a beating Hunter role. What I suspect is going to happen is that Casts are going to shift from the Hunter role, toward the Ranger role.

This is what they've been doing in the past several games, at least. They still have pretty high ATP, HP, and DEF, but they also REALLY excel when it comes to Accuracy.

So yeah, Casts could then better fill the Ranger role than Humans... In return, they could then also move Humans to being even MORE balanced between all the classes(stat-wise), and even give them the best Defensive stats(this is what they did in PSP2).

Back to the triangle.... Stat wise, again, Newmans would heavily lean toward Forces, Casts would heavily lean toward Rangers, with Humans being able to do pretty well in each area. This would leave the Hunter role open for Beasts, who would of course, excel in it with the highest attack, also with really good HP and EVA, and decent DEF, but bad when it comes to Accuracy and Tecnics.

What I'm suggesting isn't ridiculous either. In fact, what I just described here is EXACTLY what they did with the races in PSP2. I suggest that you look at the race stats for it, as I think they fit quite well: http://psp2.psupedia.info/Races

Niered
Dec 1, 2010, 05:56 PM
Casts having best ATA is a fine justification if they continue with the PSP2 style of ATA being the primary damage stat for guns. So you end with

Beast: Hunter
Newman: Force
Cast: Ranger
Human: Mediocrity

A bit better than Cast getting to excel in two things, newman in one, and human in none.

Oh wow they finally fucking fixed that? I remember having a Newman Ranger in PSU, and being so pissed off that despite the fact I was the second most accurate character in the game, fucking beasts made a better ranger than me, because when they DID hit, it made up for all the misses tenfold.

Msr. Bojangles
Dec 1, 2010, 06:26 PM
I'm just saying this, but on thinking heavily about it, Beasts would ONLY have Hunter representatives unless Sega does some major remodeling. At least, if we do fixed types. And what I mean is... they would only be available to one class overall. Remember, they have the worst ATA and horribad MST/TP/TEC. They... would be just little more than 'for teh lulz/the challenge' in a RA/FO position. I'm not trying to say it's a bad idea to want Beasts... I just want to voice my opinion, that's all.

•Col•
Dec 1, 2010, 08:17 PM
I'm just saying this, but on thinking heavily about it, Beasts would ONLY have Hunter representatives unless Sega does some major remodeling. At least, if we do fixed types. And what I mean is... they would only be available to one class overall. Remember, they have the worst ATA and horribad MST/TP/TEC. They... would be just little more than 'for teh lulz/the challenge' in a RA/FO position. I'm not trying to say it's a bad idea to want Beasts... I just want to voice my opinion, that's all.

Well, they could have 2 hunter type Beast-classes, and then like... A ranger type, that could act as a Fighgunner-esque class.

And you have to remember, stats aren't completely determined by your character's race in PSO. Your race kind of guided where your stats would end up, but, for instance, if they did make a Ranger Beast class, it'd probably have the worst Accuracy out of all the other Ranger classes, but it would have much higher Accuracy than any of the other Beast classes. Plus, if they did go the Fighgunner route, they could give the Beast ranger access to better Melee weapons and such.

I'm sure they could make it work. Ever since I started playing PSP2, I've had confidence in Sega that they'd be able to balance PSO2 out.

Kent
Dec 2, 2010, 05:34 PM
Though I understand what you're saying about stats in PSP2 and how they worked toward balancing out the races, I think this question still stands:

If you want physical superiority and to ignore techniques, you can play an Android. You'll get physical superiority in basically all of the ways you can, and you'll get traps instead of techniques (and not having to worry about TP or technique disks).

If Beasts were to be added in, they would have physical superiority in probably a slight different balance of said stats, but they'd also have MST and TP and be able to cast techniques... But aside from the occasional support technique (which, if you're in a team, are going to be almost completely useless themselves) and Ryuker, they'd be all but worthless.

Again, I understand that pretty much the reason behind why Beasts were added to the PSU formula in the first place, is so that there's one race that's the "best" at any particular thing (with Casts being the "best" Rangers, Newmans being the "best" Forces, and Beasts being the "best" Hunters), but that's also part of the problem with PSU's overall formula: There is a best at any given thing, and therefore, picking something that's worse at it just makes it a worse character.

By looking at PSO's approach, we see a more obvious intention: Even if your race/class combination isn't "ideal" in the min/maxing sense, it has its own strengths that make it very worthwhile to still play. A good example would be the HUnewearl, whose capability with techniques and high evasion make for a very different gameplay experience than with someone playing a HUcast, who's all muscle.

For all intents and purposes, PSO's design philosophy is simple, it's clean, and it works out very well into making for a good dynamic - adding more variables to it would, at this point, only serve to convolute things and probably even detract from the game's overall balance. That is, you have a choice: You can go all the way physical and be an Android (being that "physical" encompasses both melee weapons and guns), you can go all the way technical and be a Newman (and have a naturally-high capacity for techniques), or you can opt to not necessarily favor either, and go Human.

But then, your chosen class comes into effect, too: If you're a Newman Hunter, you're effectively a Hunter that's less physically-optimized, but you have a very high technique potential for someone who isn't a Force. The important note here, is that every race/class combination is effectively a new class in itself - something that plays and feels very differently from other races within the same class.

This is a design element that needs to hold true in PSO2; it's something that was very much lost in PSU, which was instead dropped in favor of a broken and horridly-unbalanced system of having these class definitions separate from your basic class and race choice. Though such a system as was in PSO could easy have Beasts appended to it as another race choice, they need a place to fit into it without disrupting the balance there already is between Androids, Humans and Newmans. This "obvious" solution of Beasts supplanting Androids when it comes to physical superiority would do nothing but throw off the balance of what's currently there in terms of design, which could more-than-easily just lead into a slippery slope of sloppy and poor design decisions, much like what we ended up with in PSU.

I would say that it still stands that within the context of there beting another PSO game, Beasts really don't have a place in it from a gameplay perspective (especially if the only argument to them being included in the first place, is one stemming from PSU or its derivatives - the exact things we want to get away from for this game).

BIG OLAF
Dec 2, 2010, 05:44 PM
(especially if the only argument to them being included in the first place, is one stemming from PSU or its derivatives - the exact things we want to get away from for this game).

Correction: the things you want to get away from in this game. I want all the PSU features (yes, even the class system) back, but with improvement over things that didn't work that well the first time, like item synthesis.

Don't group every person together with what you want. I hold PSU (and all it's apparent "flaws") close, since it was my first Phantasy Star game.The nostalgia factor plays into my love for PSU just as it does for those who played PSO first. PSO was stale and boring to me after playing PSU first, especially with the "fixed class" system. All right, what if I made a HUmar, but then wanted to try ranging, but didn't want to have to level up a whole new character (make a RAmar)?

AlexCraig
Dec 2, 2010, 05:49 PM
I personally agree with what Kent has said. Unless they do the beasts differently, keep the PSO in PSO2 and stick to the 3 original races.

Freeze
Dec 2, 2010, 06:09 PM
For the record I have nothing against beasts. I don't have one as a character but I wouldn't be against having one. That said I don't think they should be in PSO2. Given the events presented in BB and in Ep 3 they really wouldn't fit the story too well. Let's just keep the established races in PSO.

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 06:52 PM
Though I understand what you're saying about stats in PSP2 and how they worked toward balancing out the races, I think this question still stands:

If you want physical superiority and to ignore techniques, you can play an Android. You'll get physical superiority in basically all of the ways you can, and you'll get traps instead of techniques (and not having to worry about TP or technique disks).

If Beasts were to be added in, they would have physical superiority in probably a slight different balance of said stats, but they'd also have MST and TP and be able to cast techniques... But aside from the occasional support technique (which, if you're in a team, are going to be almost completely useless themselves) and Ryuker, they'd be all but worthless.

Again, I understand that pretty much the reason behind why Beasts were added to the PSU formula in the first place, is so that there's one race that's the "best" at any particular thing (with Casts being the "best" Rangers, Newmans being the "best" Forces, and Beasts being the "best" Hunters), but that's also part of the problem with PSU's overall formula: There is a best at any given thing, and therefore, picking something that's worse at it just makes it a worse character.

By looking at PSO's approach, we see a more obvious intention: Even if your race/class combination isn't "ideal" in the min/maxing sense, it has its own strengths that make it very worthwhile to still play. A good example would be the HUnewearl, whose capability with techniques and high evasion make for a very different gameplay experience than with someone playing a HUcast, who's all muscle.

For all intents and purposes, PSO's design philosophy is simple, it's clean, and it works out very well into making for a good dynamic - adding more variables to it would, at this point, only serve to convolute things and probably even detract from the game's overall balance. That is, you have a choice: You can go all the way physical and be an Android (being that "physical" encompasses both melee weapons and guns), you can go all the way technical and be a Newman (and have a naturally-high capacity for techniques), or you can opt to not necessarily favor either, and go Human.

But then, your chosen class comes into effect, too: If you're a Newman Hunter, you're effectively a Hunter that's less physically-optimized, but you have a very high technique potential for someone who isn't a Force. The important note here, is that every race/class combination is effectively a new class in itself - something that plays and feels very differently from other races within the same class.

This is a design element that needs to hold true in PSO2; it's something that was very much lost in PSU, which was instead dropped in favor of a broken and horridly-unbalanced system of having these class definitions separate from your basic class and race choice. Though such a system as was in PSO could easy have Beasts appended to it as another race choice, they need a place to fit into it without disrupting the balance there already is between Androids, Humans and Newmans. This "obvious" solution of Beasts supplanting Androids when it comes to physical superiority would do nothing but throw off the balance of what's currently there in terms of design, which could more-than-easily just lead into a slippery slope of sloppy and poor design decisions, much like what we ended up with in PSU.

I would say that it still stands that within the context of there beting another PSO game, Beasts really don't have a place in it from a gameplay perspective (especially if the only argument to them being included in the first place, is one stemming from PSU or its derivatives - the exact things we want to get away from for this game).

While the job system was a small problem in PSU, it really isn't in PSP2. While there may be a "best" Hunter, Force, or Ranger. There are also sub-roles that can be filled and advantages you get for not playing the matched race to the matched role...

The only class-race matchups that are REALLY bad... Are Cast Forces, and Beast Rangers... Which is really how it should be, anyway, lol. By making a Newman Hunter, it is essentially what a Wartecher was in PSU. By making a Newman Force, you get a Guntecher. Ranger Hunter is a Fighgunner. The big thing in PSP2 is that you get to CHOOSE which weapons you can use, which is one of the big reasons that classes in PSU were extremely polarized.

Anyway, there'd be a spot for Beasts gameplay wise in PSO2 if they went the route I said before, and made Casts more gun-oriented by increasing their Accuracy stats, and Accuracy-related ranged damage(which they did in PSP2). Think about it. In PSO, FOmar was a force, but he could also get up close with Melee weapons like a Hunter. RAmarl could still use techniques effectively, and RAcast was beefy enough so he could also get up close and personal. FOmarl could use guns decently. Finally, HUnewearls were Hunters that could use Techniques effectively....

But look at that. We have Force that can Melee, and another that can use guns. We have a Ranger that can Melee and and use spells. And a Hunter that can use spells.... But no Hunter that has a slight focus on guns.

Well, there IS HUmar. But I would consider him a jack-of-all trades, because he can use techniques just as well as he could use guns.

If they moved HUcast/HUcaseal to that Hunter type that can also sub gun-type weapons, that would leave an opening for a Beast Hunter right there.

Anyway, adding 2 new classes for Beasts by slightly altering the Cast ones is not going to grossly unbalance things. I wouldn't even call PSO's class system that balanced to begin with. :/ Sure, it was definitely more balanced than PSU's, but I think even PSP2's is even better.(Yes, Forces are a little underpowered in it, but that is being fixed in PSP2 Infinity) And that kind of system is WAY harder to balance because you actually get to choose your race and class, rather than just use a completely class-based like PSO's. They could EASILY rework it a bit to put in Beast classes.

And there are other sides than just gameplay when making decisions for a game. Like, oh I dunno, what the consumers actually want. And do you know what many of them want?

Beasts. Especially the Japanese ones(which, you should know by now, is the only audience Sega gives a crap about when it comes to the Phantasy Star series).

And if you really think they havent learned anything from PSU, and they wont implement ANY ideas from it, you're going to be in for a rude awakening. You seem to only want PURE PSO-BASED gameplay. Are they just supposed to make PSO2 a carbon copy of PSO1 with updated graphics, new items, and enemy reskins then? Or would you rather that they come up with their own completely new and fresh ideas? It'd just be PSU all over again, then.

MAXrobo
Dec 2, 2010, 07:19 PM
Or would you rather that they come up with their own completely new and fresh ideas? It'd just be PSU all over again, then.

are you saying that you want PSO2 to have NO new and fresh ideas! i peronaly think that would just be plain stupid. if you want a new PSO i say play PSZ. if you want a new PSU play PsP2. I do think they should take things from both PSO and PSU, but it should be mostly completely new stuff, including gameplay mechanics. im not saying take out Hunter, ranger, and force as classes, or that they should not use the old races. i still want it to be Phantasy Star. but a game that basicly just smashes PSO and PSU together would be boring, Iv already played thoughs games.

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 07:43 PM
are you saying that you want PSO2 to have NO new and fresh ideas! i peronaly think that would just be plain stupid. if you want a new PSO i say play PSZ. if you want a new PSU play PsP2. I do think they should take things from both PSO and PSU, but it should be mostly completely new stuff, including gameplay mechanics. im not saying take out Hunter, ranger, and force as classes, or that they should not use the old races. i still want it to be Phantasy Star. but a game that basicly just smashes PSO and PSU together would be boring, Iv already played thoughs games.

Sorry, when I put that, I was talking about them getting ideas from scratch. By saying that, I was putting him in a situation where he had to make a choice. A choice between Sega using things from PSU(which he said doesn't want), creating a game COMPLETELY based on new ideas and not using anything the learned from PSU(which is partly what he wanted, but if they did this, PSO2 could end up even worse off than PSU), or have them just make it PSO1.5(which I really hope isn't what he wants...

Anyway, how I want PSO2 to be is use things from PSO, use what they learned and some features from PSU, implement their new ideas from PS0/PSP2, and of course any other cool new ideas(which is what they're partialy doing with PSP2 Infinity right now) that they come up with.


But anyway, I just worked out how a class system could work out with Beasts involved(that is, if PSO2 even follows a similiar class system to PSO). Well, here it is.

HUmar/HUmarl:
Can use guns and techniques semi-effectively(jack-of-all-trades Hunter)

HUnewm/HUnewearl:
Can sub techniques effectively(spell-using Hunters)

HUcast/HUcaseal:
Even though a Hunter class, can use just guns as effectively as Melee weapons

HUbeast/HUbeaseal(new):
All-out melee Hunter

RAmar/RAmarl:
Can use melee and spells (jack-of-all-trades Ranger); able to use Spells just as effectively as HUmars, and can use Melee weapons just as effectively as FOmarls

RAcast/RAcaseal:
All-out gun using Ranger

RAnewm/RAnewearl(New):
Even though it is a Ranger Class, can use Spells just as effectively as Guns

FOmar/FOmarl:
Jack-of-all trades, Force-type; able to use Handguns just as effectively as HUmars, and can use Melee weapons just as effectively as RAmars

FOnewm/FOnewearl:
Complete Magic-user

FObeast/FObeaseal(new):
Can work out how FOmar did in PSO1. They have the highest ATP of the forces so that they can melee, but they also have the lowest Defense.


Now let me break it down... The HUmar, RAmar, FOmar are the ones that focus in their Job-type, but can also kinda use other stuff pretty well too.

The "pure" classes are HUbeast/beseal, RAcast/caseal, and FOnewm/newearl. These are the ones that will be completely focusing on melee, ranged, and technique attacks respectively.

Then, there are the 2 weird classes, HUnewm/HUnewearl and FObeast/FObeaseal. FObeast basically fills in for what FOmar was in PSO (a melee-oriented Force), and HUnewearl is the same as before.

Finally, there are the 2 completely hybrid classes: HUcast and RAnewm. For, HUcast, think of a Fighgunner. For RAnewm, think of a Guntecher. (Sorry to put it into PSU terms, but that's all I can think of how to explain it)

You don't need a Hunter/Force oriented class, because there is already the HUnewearl and FObeast, so you get to pick if you want to be more Spell or Melee oriented between them.

MAXrobo
Dec 2, 2010, 08:17 PM
nice idea, but there are 2 problems i see. 1) why do neumans get an extra class while the casts and beasts are still stuck with 2? i get no having a FOcast because they cant use techs. but i think you should ether eliminate RAnewm or, more preferably, add a RAbeast. 2) this list only works if males and females have the same stats which i dont like. i like it better when the different genders had different stats, even if its just small modifications.

Wayu
Dec 2, 2010, 08:23 PM
I think that the class-change system will return from the PSU world. PSO's single-class limitation felt like too big a limiter to me. It would also limit Beasts to HU, Newmans to FO, CASTs to RA, and would basically remove the need for Humans and Dewmans...

-Wayu

Skye-Fox713
Dec 2, 2010, 09:10 PM
Well you can count me in for Beasts for PSO2, personally sense they introduced the beast race in PSU to me they now feel like an integral part of the Phantasy star series now and it would be a bad move to not include them in PSO2.

To me it would feel like a step backwards in the series if they were not to include them in PSO2.

On a side note I would totaly rock a RAbeastal and have my favorit character JOE make a return to the Phantasy Star series.

yeah when i jumped back on here to post an error message for PSU, I saw the news for PSO2 and I was like FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKK YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 09:12 PM
nice idea, but there are 2 problems i see. 1) why do neumans get an extra class while the casts and beasts are still stuck with 2? i get no having a FOcast because they cant use techs. but i think you should ether eliminate RAnewm or, more preferably, add a RAbeast. 2) this list only works if males and females have the same stats which i dont like. i like it better when the different genders had different stats, even if its just small modifications.

I thought about adding a RAbeast, but that would still leave Cast with only 2 classes.... And I thought it might be too similiar to HUcast(who would be Hunter oriented with some proficiency in guns). And Newmans get a new class just because that's how it works, lol. Really though, it would've made more sense if they had made HUmarl a Newman in PSO.... But oh well. Besides, if I didn't create RAnewm, there would only be RAbeast left, and like I said, I didn't want that....

And even though I didn't put it, they male/females do have small stat differences. That list I made was based off of PS0's, which had grouped male/females into classes, with slight differences.


I think that the class-change system will return from the PSU world. PSO's single-class limitation felt like too big a limiter to me. It would also limit Beasts to HU, Newmans to FO, CASTs to RA, and would basically remove the need for Humans and Dewmans...

-Wayu

I definitely agree that PSO's class system is very..... Limiting..... And I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but.... PSP2's class system is REALLY good. I really would like it if they just did that for PSO2. And to help prevent that race-class polarizing, which already isn't a problem in PSP2, they could just give specific bonuses for using certain races with certain types.

So as an example... Ranger Beasts get a big boost in accuracy when using short-range guns, like mechguns and shotguns. I dunno, just an example to show what I mean off of the top of my head, lol.

MAXrobo
Dec 2, 2010, 09:16 PM
I think that the class-change system will return from the PSU world. PSO's single-class limitation felt like too big a limiter to me. It would also limit Beasts to HU, Newmans to FO, CASTs to RA, and would basically remove the need for Humans and Dewmans...

-Wayu

acctualy it wouldnt. like Colaya said, mixing various classes and races can make some very cool and useful classes. if we sitck to just HU, RA, FO, and VA, it acctually limits the posibilitys even more. this is because in PSU the stat differences are solely linked to race. with the PSO system, the stats are more dependent on class and only partaly dependent on race. this lets you have a beast with decent TP, or a newman with DEF, which is imposible with PSUs system.

however, it is more limiting in that you cant change classes at will. i did like that about PSU, and if they go back to set classes it will be missed. it was always fun to run missions as a Cast techer and have people be frustrated with me for not playing my "optimum setup" :D

i have no idea where dumans would fit in, but i love the midieval look so much that I really want them to get in. also wartecher was my favorite class in PSU. and the more options the better.

Corey Blue
Dec 2, 2010, 09:21 PM
Keep some of PSU'S combat mechanics and if beast can fit in the story,throw them in there too.Other then that it should have a straight PSO with new features.

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 09:39 PM
acctualy it wouldnt. like Colaya said, mixing various classes and races can make some very cool and useful classes. if we sitck to just HU, RA, FO, and VA, it acctually limits the posibilitys even more. this is because in PSU the stat differences are solely linked to race. with the PSO system, the stats are more dependent on class and only partaly dependent on race. this lets you have a beast with decent TP, or a newman with DEF, which is imposible with PSUs system.

however, it is more limiting in that you cant change classes at will. i did like that about PSU, and if they go back to set classes it will be missed. it was always fun to run missions as a Cast techer and have people be frustrated with me for not playing my "optimum setup" :D

i have no idea where dumans would fit in, but i love the midieval look so much that I really want them to get in. also wartecher was my favorite class in PSU. and the more options the better.

Well, with PSP2 Infinity's rebirth system.... You can rebirth your character(After level 50, I believe) to reset them back to level 1, but you also get to choose to give stat boosts in whichever area(s) you choose. So eventually, after rebirthing a few times, any Race-Class combo can become useful, really.

Also, Dumans are supposedly going to be a "battle mage" type race... They have really high attack, really good MST/TEC.... But CRAP Defense/HP.

Crystal_Shard
Dec 2, 2010, 10:02 PM
I tend to think that while class changing is fine, it makes gameplay too homogeneous as classes will tend to play the same in the long run. Also, I think it plays hell with balancing, which is why my traditionally favorite class, Force, has been sidelined almost entirely in their current incarnation.

While fixed classes may be too limiting for some, why not a compromise using the best of PSO and PSU?

A return to fixed classes, but with the ability to extend attributes such as weapon proficiencies, and potentially rebirth a character, maybe to a completely new class. That way, you get the advantages of fixed classes balancing gameplay, but also opens the door to changing playstyles and player preferences.

Msr. Bojangles
Dec 2, 2010, 10:03 PM
Class-related thingamajigs

Good sir/madam, I do not mean in any way to sound like I'm calling your ideas terrible. In fact, I am not trying to at all. While well-thought out, you forget: In PSO, the RAcaseal /is/ the 'Ranger' of the Hunters. Massive ATA, but still ATP that grows swiftly, as well as some great melee animations.

Whilst I do know you thought those 'class' examples out, there are a few things I just do not agree with. However, that does not make them 'bad' ideas. Merely ones I dislike somewhat.

'RAnewm/newearl' - Wasn't the RAmarl supposed to be the 'guntecher' of the rangers? Her MST grew at a swift rate and soon easily matched her ATP in overall amount; This would be the aforementioned 'Guntecher'. On top of that, while PSU does have Newman Rangers, I would say that I wouldn't particularly rely on a RA for techniques, considering the absurdly low TP pool they have as a class.

'FObeast/beaseal' - Erm... This would just be a HUmar with FO proficiencies, tech levels, and SLIGHT more MST at the cost of less HP/somewhat more TP. FOmars didn't ever match a RA in ATP without Shifta, and tended to be easy to kill due in part to the very low DFP/HP, both of which only surpassed a FOnewearl overall. I understand that the ideas are sound, but then why would we play a FOmar for a battle Force? What point would it be, considering FObeasts would get near-equal levels of MST, letting them learn Shifta/Deband level 30, skyrocketing them to absurd levels of ATP/DFP? (Also, I say FOmarls are better with Slicers than guns. But that's just me~) Of course, then they'd potentially cap out with ATA so low that you'd probably never land a single hit... Which then nobody would want to play them, anyway. (What's the point of 3500 ATP if you only hit 20% of the time and have ~1300 HP at level 180 in Ult Ruins [Or the equivalent.]?)


Now, I do say you have interesting ideas, but they have some flaws to them, good sir. Now, I reiterate, just in case anyone thinks I'm being 'unfair': I. Do. Not. Thoroughly. Despise. PSU. I just think that if PSO2 is in essence PSO, just with some tweaks here 'n' there, updated graphics, new areas, etc., that it'd be ridiculously hard to put Beasts in without completely beating the already long-established PSO character archetypes over the head with a rusty shovel and chucking them into a volcano.

TL;DR version:

Read the above text.



I tend to think that while class changing is fine, it makes gameplay too homogeneous as classes will tend to play the same in the long run. Also, I think it plays hell with balancing, which is why my traditionally favorite class, Force, has been sidelined almost entirely in their current incarnation.

While fixed classes may be too limiting for some, why not a compromise using the best of PSO and PSU?

A return to fixed classes, but with the ability to extend attributes such as weapon proficiencies, and potentially rebirth a character, maybe to a completely new class. That way, you get the advantages of fixed classes balancing gameplay, but also opens the door to changing playstyles and player preferences.


Ohohohoho, the best of both worlds indeed. I like it. *thumbs up*

Kent
Dec 2, 2010, 10:34 PM
And there are other sides than just gameplay when making decisions for a game. Like, oh I dunno, what the consumers actually want. And do you know what many of them want?
Smoother gameplay. A return to dungeon-crawling. Meaningful team dynamics. A true successor to Phantasy Star Online.

And if you really think they havent learned anything from PSU, and they wont implement ANY ideas from it, you're going to be in for a rude awakening. You seem to only want PURE PSO-BASED gameplay. Are they just supposed to make PSO2 a carbon copy of PSO1 with updated graphics, new items, and enemy reskins then? Or would you rather that they come up with their own completely new and fresh ideas? It'd just be PSU all over again, then.
You seem angry about something.

The Phantasy Star series has been effectively divided into two series now: Phantasy Star Universe and Phantasy Star Online. When you tell people, after making what is essentially a spin-off series, that you're making a real successor to the original series revival that drew in such a large fanbase... You can't really just go make another game of aforementioned spin-off series. It's one thing to take some elements of it (such as having faster-paced combat, or the ability to manually-aim ranged weapons), but it's another thing entirely to say that they should essentially ignore the original thing they're succeeding.

What happened with Phantasy Star Universe, is they took some of the basic elements from Phantasy Star Online, and turned them into a different kind of game. Basically, they streamlined the hell out of anything, and made the game's main selling point into "action gameplay with a bunch of really flashy special moves you can throw out everywhere." It may be considered "evolved" in some ways over what PSO was, and it is in some ways - but what you need to realize, is that far from all of the changes are things that actually "fit" into what Phantasy Star Online had going for it.

That's why Phantasy Star Universe is not called Phantasy Star Online 2.

Again: I'm not saying they can't learn from what they've done with Phantasy Star Universe. I'm saying that Phantasy Star Online, itself, is a fundamentally-different experience from what Phantasy Star Universe was. That is why they need to be very, very careful with exactly what influences they take from PSU when making PSO2.

PSO was all about hunting for loot in these expansive areas that, save for the Forest, were rarely anything close to straight-forward. There was a significant emphasis on exploring areas in order to find the exit to the next floor or the boss. Contrast this with PSU, where the game was almost entirely about action, with very light exploration elements to be had. That's not to say that a multiplayer action game is a bad thing, it's just that the balance of action and exploration between PSO and PSU was significant enough to draw a fairly bold line between the two.

Don't get me wrong: It'd be great if we could get high-quality action gameplay for PSO2, and I'd welcome it; it's imperative though, if this is supposed to be a real successor to PSO, that it not be implemented at the sacrifice of the dungeon-crawling exploration that made PSO into the experience that it was.

That aside, you also need ot understand that my criticisms of PSU's systems come solely from experience with them - things like the synthesis system, the system behind levelling up photon arts, the system of binding techniques to weapons, the system of having class and race (and sex) separate while both individually-affect character statistics are both, in my personal and professional opinion, fundamentally-flawed systems on their own, as well as poorly-implemented into the overarching design of the game. That's not to say they couldn't be fixed (or couldn't benefit from some tweaking, at the very least), just that their current implementations in the game serve to make it a less-smooth experience, as well as significantly more difficult to enjoy.

One of the most basic tenets of designing a game is cohesion - the art of making all individual game elements mesh together in a way that not only makes the entire game a single experience, rather than being fragmented or unintuitive, but also making sure that extraneous elements that distract from the game itself are kept in check. Why do you think that things like crafting and all those different classes were removed from the Phantasy Star Portable series?

They were excessive. They existed within Phantasy Star Universe for the sole purpose of being there as a bullet point on the back of the box (some more literally than others). Adding things to a game for the sake of adding them to a game is an almost-guaranteed way to detract from a game's overall cohesion, and that's exactly what many elements of PSU did for the game.

And yes, this is actually more important than fan-service - especially when aforementioned fans are ready and willing to spout off any random idea that comes into their heads and immediately condemn (particularly without justification) those that bring up real concerns and ramifications it may actually have. That's not to say that throwing the fans a treat is a bad thing, it's just that designing a game around random things "the fans want" will quickly end up with Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball if you're not extremely careful with it.

Skye-Fox713
Dec 2, 2010, 10:41 PM
Hmm, I think a posibility of the "best of both worlds" might look/work something like this

At character creation you would chose what race you want to be and each race would have minority adjusted starting stats to "suggest" what class that they would be best suited for.

Race choice
Human - Balance
Numan - Force proffered
Cast - Ranger proffered
Beast - hunter proffered

Then at the end of the character creation you would chose a hunter archetype and this would lock you into that class type but still give you the flexibility of choosing your favorite race, Based on the choice here the class type would give you bonus stats in the correct areas for that type.

First Class choice
Hunter
Ranger
Force

Then as you level up your character at a certain level you could chose an archetype specialization depending on how you chose your first class. (using PSU classes as an example)

Archetypes

Hunter - Fortehunter, Wartecher, Acrofighter, Fighgunner, Protranser, Fighmaster

Ranger - Fortegunner, Guntecher, Fighgunner, Protranser, Gunmaster

Force - Fortetecher, Wartecher, Guntecher, Acrotecher, Protranser, MasterForce



For example I could go Ranger -> Guntecher which would improve my tech abilities some, but would further improve my Ranger abilities because I chose Ranger for my first type.

Now for the opposite way if I went with Force -> Guntecher it would improve my abilities to use guns more efficiently but it would further improve my Teching abilities because of the Force class as my first choice

Or some one who wants a beast with high Tech abilities but still wants to be primarily melee, they could start out as a Force then chose the Wartecher archetype.

That way it is a slight throw back to the old PSO class system but giving it the flexibility of the PSU class system.

This is how I interprate how they could combine both PSO and PSU class systems

(I just want to be a beast ranger)

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 10:49 PM
Good sir/madam, I do not mean in any way to sound like I'm calling your ideas terrible. In fact, I am not trying to at all. While well-thought out, you forget: In PSO, the RAcaseal /is/ the 'Ranger' of the Hunters. Massive ATA, but still ATP that grows swiftly, as well as some great melee animations.

Whilst I do know you thought those 'class' examples out, there are a few things I just do not agree with. However, that does not make them 'bad' ideas. Merely ones I dislike somewhat.

'RAnewm/newearl' - Wasn't the RAmarl supposed to be the 'guntecher' of the rangers? Her MST grew at a swift rate and soon easily matched her ATP in overall amount; This would be the aforementioned 'Guntecher'. On top of that, while PSU does have Newman Rangers, I would say that I wouldn't particularly rely on a RA for techniques, considering the absurdly low TP pool they have as a class.

'FObeast/beaseal' - Erm... This would just be a HUmar with FO proficiencies, tech levels, and SLIGHT more MST at the cost of less HP/somewhat more TP. FOmars didn't ever match a RA in ATP without Shifta, and tended to be easy to kill due in part to the very low DFP/HP, both of which only surpassed a FOnewearl overall. I understand that the ideas are sound, but then why would we play a FOmar for a battle Force? What point would it be, considering FObeasts would get near-equal levels of MST, letting them learn Shifta/Deband level 30, skyrocketing them to absurd levels of ATP/DFP? (Also, I say FOmarls are better with Slicers than guns. But that's just me~) Of course, then they'd potentially cap out with ATA so low that you'd probably never land a single hit... Which then nobody would want to play them, anyway. (What's the point of 3500 ATP if you only hit 20% of the time and have ~1300 HP at level 180 in Ult Ruins [Or the equivalent.]?)


Now, I do say you have interesting ideas, but they have some flaws to them, good sir. Now, I reiterate, just in case anyone thinks I'm being 'unfair': I. Do. Not. Thoroughly. Despise. PSU. I just think that if PSO2 is in essence PSO, just with some tweaks here 'n' there, updated graphics, new areas, etc., that it'd be ridiculously hard to put Beasts in without completely beating the already long-established PSO character archetypes over the head with a rusty shovel and chucking them into a volcano.

Ah, I'm not too familiar with Racaseal, to be honest. I still considered her to be Ranger-oriented, though... o.O But anyway, if Sega did what I said and oriented Casts to ranged weapon type damage, it doesn't matter much.

Also, I based that list off of the classes in PSZero. Yes, Ramarl was guntecher-ish in PSO.... But like I already said, in Phantasy Star Zero, they just grouped each genders of each class together. (So RAmar and RAmarl got grouped together, keeping most of RAmar's stats. So RAmarl is now pretty much just a female version of PSO's RAmar)

As for FObeast/beaseal, I said to think of FOmar from PSO (in PSZero, FOmar and FOmarl got grouped together, taking on most of FOmarl's role) I'm not 100% on how FOmar worked in PSO, as I only played as one for about 20 hours... I did have friends that played as him though, and I do know that it was definitely possible to make melee oriented Force with him as well(with the help of a Mag, of course) But also, don't forget that race doesn't directly effect your character's stats in PSO, it just "guides" it. FObeast/beseal would still most likely have the lowest Spell damage and Accuracy out of all the forces.... But they could make it so it's not completely horrid.

MAXrobo
Dec 2, 2010, 11:00 PM
@skye-fox713 thats acctualy a really good idea. if they use somthing like that in PSO2 i will be happy. the one thing i have to say though is, how will dumans fit in? Im really hoping they get in the game, and i am aware of their intended roll in PsP2i. but it would make that race an outlier in your system.

Wayu
Dec 2, 2010, 11:03 PM
This is rapidly becoming a 'class system' discussion topic.

I think SEGA's decision on the class system will depend on whether or not Dewmans make a significant impact on PSPo2i, which may or may not give SEGA a reason to incorporate them into PSO2. Having 4 races fits the bill, but the envelope gets pushed if you add another. Also, it sort of depends on how SEGA plans to tie PSPo2i and PSO2 together.

The class system will most likely be a mix of AotI and PSO's class systems, with new classes being unlocked for specific classes after doing some work in another. Class abilities will probably return as well.

-Wayu

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 11:06 PM
stuff

Listen, I understand how you feel. I've already said that I preferred PSO to PSU, and I agreed with pretty much everything you said in this post...

But you seem to be opposed to anything and EVERYTHING that was in PSU. I really fail to see how Beasts would make PSO2 worse. Yes, if Sega does it wrong and just throw them in without thinking, it could cause a potential balance issue... But if they are randomly throwing stuff in, then the game wouldn't be good anyway.

And adding Beasts wouldn't be just for fan service... If they really did put thought into it and implemented them the right way, then it'd only add a few more classes that everyone can play.

And I really hate to bringing this game back up.... But even if you hate PSU, you really should try PSP2 out... It took every GOOD thing from PSU, got rid of all the crap, and even put in a lot of really cool new ideas. It even fixed old problems that PSU, like the class system which, in my opinion, is the best one they've made for a Phantasy Star game thus far.

EDIT: Yeah... I actually like that idea Skye-Fox713...


This is rapidly becoming a 'class system' discussion topic.

Well.. It's the main (and pretty much only) reason that Beasts shouldn't be in PSO2.... Because they could mess it up if Sega does it wrong.

Wayu
Dec 2, 2010, 11:09 PM
But you seem to be opposed to anything and EVERYTHING that was in PSU.

Fan boys.

Can we keep this civil, guys? Also, let's get back on topic.

-Wayu

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 11:12 PM
Fan boys.

Can we keep this civil, guys? Also, let's get back on topic.

-Wayu

Err. We're being pretty civil, I think.

And talking about classes is legitimate... Because like I said, that is the only GOOD reason for Beasts not to be in PSO2... We can have a little argument, can't we?

Skye-Fox713
Dec 2, 2010, 11:14 PM
@MAXrobo Thanks, I've actually been disconnected from pso-world sense the NA PSU servers went down and sense I've had to rebuild by computers software side and I wanted to play psu but got an error so I went here to post it. Then I saw the new's for PSO2 and I almost shat bricks, but pardon my question but what is a Dewman?

From Wayu's post i know that they are from PSPo2i and a Race?, but that's about it.

But semi back on topic, I think because the Beast race was a very big part of PSU and AoI (2 of the npc story characters were beasts Leo and Toni (i think that's the shorty's name)) they are now a very integral part of the Phantasy Star races now and would be a bad Idea to not include them in PSO2.

Wayu
Dec 2, 2010, 11:16 PM
So far, so good on the civilties, but from my experience, the vast majority fan boys have a violent tendency. A very frequent tendency. It's a pre-emptive reminder.

Arguments are productive. Once the flaming starts, it rolls downhill. We're also not discussing whether or not PSO or PSU is better.

Classes are relevant, but we're rapidly moving on to the class system only and less on the Beasts.

Dewmans are the new race to be introduced in PSPo2i. They're the total glass-cannons, having massive offensive abilities (ATP, ATA, TP) but terrible defensive capabilities (MST, DFP, EVP).

-Wayu

Skye-Fox713
Dec 2, 2010, 11:26 PM
Hmm, interesting just curios what's the creation myth behind them, ie beast were created for working in harsh environments.

I'm still curios as to how they will implement the beast race, they could give them the same creation background as they did for PSU or they could do the whole exploration space ship too.

(I just want to be a female beast ranger as you can see in my sig)

Wayu
Dec 2, 2010, 11:33 PM
Dewmans are Humans that were infected in one way or another (specifics are unknown right now) and altered by the SEED-Virus. You could say that they're the survivors of it.

If Dewmans make it into PSO2, there is no doubt that Beasts would, and vice versa.

-Wayu

•Col•
Dec 2, 2010, 11:37 PM
Hmm, interesting just curios what's the creation myth behind them, ie beast were created for working in harsh environments.

I'm still curios as to how they will implement the beast race, they could give them the same creation background as they did for PSU or they could do the whole exploration space ship too.

(I just want to be a female beast ranger as you can see in my sig)

Dumans/Dewmans are just SEED infected humans... Remember Hyuga? He's one now. They look pretty much exactly like Humans, but they have much paler skin.

Also, Wayu forgot to mention that they also have high magic-skill abilities.... So they're supposed to act as a battlemage type race.

EDIT: Oh shoot. Beaten. Didn't see that there was another page.

Wayu
Dec 2, 2010, 11:38 PM
Yeah, high offensive abilities (TP, ATA, ATP)...and I think that yes, their TP is higher than ATP.

-Wayu

Skye-Fox713
Dec 2, 2010, 11:46 PM
Ahh, cool thanks. now back onto the topic of Beasts in pso2

Akaimizu
Dec 3, 2010, 03:06 PM
Since I didn't see this topic first, I'll post what I put in the Poll topic.

"To a certain degree, I almost want the races to initially go back to the basics. Nothing against beasts, per se, but only because it'll help them concentrate better on balance and tight gameplay. They should take a page from AM2. That and the kind of idea (or fighter's mantra) that AM2 delivered in their Virtua Fighter series. Before you start learning a bunch of moves, it's best to be a master at doing a few moves. Once something is truly solid, then you work on expansion. Throwing in Beasts, ala. PSU, was an issue because they just added more without thinking first about their game systems. Thus why it was hard for them to balance them the way they had it down on paper. Their game engine was just not really ready for them, and thus couldn't compartmentalize their strengths into just the classes they wanted them to best at.

Trivializing techs to 10-level increments and simplifying the variance in Support techs (including a lack of contention based on Buff/Debuff level against another buff or debuff) also kept things a little too simple to make needed adjustments."

Initially, Sega dealt with the Accuracy race, the Tech race, and the in-between race. Beasts add the Strength race to the mix. It's just that previously, Sega didn't have a system ready to handle that without disrupting something else, in the process. To a degree, they simply need more control variables and thus can work in adjustments much easier. It's like how Blizzard did it in the past. They didn't just throw in that a person could use an ability, and what level that ability was. They also had variables to handle individual level potency, speed of triggering it, and cooldown before it can be used again. Not to mention the ability to issue important upgrades at any given level. So for me, make sure you have a system where 1 race doesn't almost remove the need for another.

Even PSZ had some issues like that. Same issue, Strength-based stats being an achilles heel for Sonic Team to do anything about it. Why some folk came back saying, "Why make a Cast Ranger, when a Cast Hunter can do everything they can and better?"

Skye-Fox713
Dec 3, 2010, 04:38 PM
So excluding a race that's been part of the Phantasy Star series for about 4 years now wouldn't cause a huge uproar by the fans in Japan now wouldn't it. Remember Sega only really listens to their Japanese audience and I bet they have already gotten several emails to include beasts in PSO2.

But I've also heard that they were able to balance the 4 races in PSP2, and I'm pretty sure that they can balance them in PSO2. Blizzard now has a total of now 12 races coming in Cata and they are able to balance all of them.

Dongra
Dec 3, 2010, 04:57 PM
Sega is not Blizzard. Sega can't even balance three races. What makes you think they will be able to do four or more?

r00tabaga
Dec 3, 2010, 05:04 PM
Sega is not Blizzard. Sega can't even balance three races. What makes you think they will be able to do four or more?

Well played... Well played...

MAXrobo
Dec 3, 2010, 05:23 PM
Sega is not Blizzard. Sega can't even balance three races. What makes you think they will be able to do four or more?

well if sega isnt going to balence it anyway like you say, then i say "to hell with it!" put in all 5 races!

Seth Astra
Dec 3, 2010, 05:50 PM
Sega is not Blizzard. Sega can't even balance three races. What makes you think they will be able to do four or more?
I would have to agree.

Lance813
Dec 3, 2010, 06:07 PM
well if sega isnt going to balence it anyway like you say, then i say "to hell with it!" put in all 5 races!

I would rather not see that... SEGA should be ready with their best-friends behind them holding their family sword. Because if this game TANKS they're going to have a lot of explaining to do.

Corey Blue
Dec 3, 2010, 06:10 PM
I would rather not see that... SEGA should be ready with their best-friends behind them holding their family sword. Because if this game TANKS they're going to have a lot of explaining to do.

There going to hear it from the heavens,if this game fails,hell will break loose on SEGA.

•Col•
Dec 3, 2010, 06:13 PM
Dewmans are Humans that were infected in one way or another (specifics are unknown right now) and altered by the SEED-Virus. You could say that they're the survivors of it.

If Dewmans make it into PSO2, there is no doubt that Beasts would, and vice versa.

-Wayu

Well, I think if Dumans are included in PSO2, Beasts would almost definitely be in... But I wouldn't say it the other way around... No one has even gotten a chance to PLAY as Dumans yet, so they don't have much of a fanbase at all yet... In fact, there are many people(including myself) who are unsure of what to think of them... I think they're a cool idea and everything, but PSP2 was WELL balanced with the 4 races, and now they're adding another... I'm not sure how well they're going to handle it... So I'm just going to wait and see.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dumans were included in PSO2, though.


Since I didn't see this topic first, I'll post what I put in the Poll topic.

"To a certain degree, I almost want the races to initially go back to the basics. Nothing against beasts, per se, but only because it'll help them concentrate better on balance and tight gameplay. They should take a page from AM2. That and the kind of idea (or fighter's mantra) that AM2 delivered in their Virtua Fighter series. Before you start learning a bunch of moves, it's best to be a master at doing a few moves. Once something is truly solid, then you work on expansion. Throwing in Beasts, ala. PSU, was an issue because they just added more without thinking first about their game systems. Thus why it was hard for them to balance them the way they had it down on paper. Their game engine was just not really ready for them, and thus couldn't compartmentalize their strengths into just the classes they wanted them to best at.

Trivializing techs to 10-level increments and simplifying the variance in Support techs (including a lack of contention based on Buff/Debuff level against another buff or debuff) also kept things a little too simple to make needed adjustments."

Initially, Sega dealt with the Accuracy race, the Tech race, and the in-between race. Beasts add the Strength race to the mix. It's just that previously, Sega didn't have a system ready to handle that without disrupting something else, in the process. To a degree, they simply need more control variables and thus can work in adjustments much easier. It's like how Blizzard did it in the past. They didn't just throw in that a person could use an ability, and what level that ability was. They also had variables to handle individual level potency, speed of triggering it, and cooldown before it can be used again. Not to mention the ability to issue important upgrades at any given level. So for me, make sure you have a system where 1 race doesn't almost remove the need for another.

Even PSZ had some issues like that. Same issue, Strength-based stats being an achilles heel for Sonic Team to do anything about it. Why some folk came back saying, "Why make a Cast Ranger, when a Cast Hunter can do everything they can and better?"

The main reason there was imbalance in PSU is because of the class system, not because of Beasts. But you're right, they need to think about things before they just through them into the game...... Which is exactly what they did in PSP2. No race really has a major advantage over another; they all have their own perks that work with almost any class. I say almost, because Beast Rangers and Cast Forces are kinda bad; they aren't completely useless, but they definitely have a lot more disadvantages than any other Race/Class combo. Of course, this problem is kind of being taken care of in PSP2Infinity, with the new Character Rebirth system.

Anyway, main point is: Sega needs to think about what will happen when they add new things, like a race, to a game. They've had time to think about it, and they have proven that they can make Beasts work through PSP2.


Sega is not Blizzard. Sega can't even balance three races. What makes you think they will be able to do four or more?

If you really believe that the races are already unbalanced, what does it matter if there is another?

Lance813
Dec 3, 2010, 06:14 PM
There going to hear it from the heavens,if this game fails,hell will break loose on SEGA.

And by heavens you mean the score the game receives from Famitsu, 1up, IGN, Gamespot... right? And by hell you mean the wrath of thousands of displeased gamers... right? :wacko:

Lets pray to the holy race this doesn't happen...

Dongra
Dec 3, 2010, 06:58 PM
If you really believe that the races are already unbalanced, what does it matter if there is another?
Where did I say that they shouldn't add another race? I don't mind if they add another race. My only arguments against doing so are Sega's ability to create a good backstory for this new race and how many class/race combinations will it add. I have a bad habit of trying to play every class/race in a game and adding more will just eat up more of my time.

•Col•
Dec 3, 2010, 07:04 PM
Where did I say that they shouldn't add another race? I don't mind if they add another race. My only arguments against doing so are Sega's ability to create a good backstory for this new race and how many class/race combinations will it add. I have a bad habit of trying to play every class/race in a game and adding more will just eat up more of my time.

Well, you said that Sega wouldn't be able to balance the game if there were 4 races, implying that adding another race would be a negative thing, which lead me to assume you didn't want them in, lol.

Sega has had trouble with balance in the past.... *coughPSUcough*.... But they definitely have learned from their mistakes, and I know they can balance the races/classes for PSO2.

Kent
Dec 3, 2010, 10:24 PM
But you seem to be opposed to anything and EVERYTHING that was in PSU.

[...]

And I really hate to bringing this game back up.... But even if you hate PSU, you really should try PSP2 out... It took every GOOD thing from PSU, got rid of all the crap, and even put in a lot of really cool new ideas. It even fixed old problems that PSU, like the class system which, in my opinion, is the best one they've made for a Phantasy Star game thus far.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned somewhere above that, yes, I actually have played (at least the demo version) of PSP2. I'm aware that considerable strides were taken forward from PSU's design, but I'm also aware of the fact that there are some rather critical design decisions that are still part of the game from PSU that have yet to actually be resolved (such as binding techniques to weapons).

Also, again, the Phantasy Star Portable games are not developed by Sonic Team - they're developed by Alfa System. We can't necessarily assume that Sonic Team would be taking in and understanding the advances made to their game by a separate developer; I'm not in the wrong to be skeptical if they prove to be the developers behind it.

I have every right to be critical of PSU's design. I'm not moronic enough, as some people seem to think, to hate something for the sake of hating something: I understand design, and I understand the fundamentals of an entertaining experience. PSU was a massive failure outside of Japan for a reason, you know - and it's not some silly reason as "oh, it doesn't have violence/gore/PvP" or "it's too complex for them" or anything like that. Simple fact of the matter is, many people realized, after playing the game that it's certainly got many things wrong with it that are just plain unfriendly to players.

It's one thing to understand a product is flawed, but it's something else entirely to understand what is wrong with it. I'm not stupid enough to think that just because something was in PSU, that means it's bad (and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop acting as if that was the case or even at all implied). In fact, you might realize if you had read some of the earlier statements that I made, that PSU actually did take steps toward things that could have been much better than they actually turned out, such as a less "mechanical" feel to combat and the ability to manually aim ranged weapons (which feel, respectively, too loose and too imprecise).

Akaimizu
Dec 3, 2010, 10:38 PM
For me, the reason why I can't count the strides made for PSP2 in the mix of whether Sonic Team has the ability to balance things first unless they start smaller is because PSO2 is not of PSP2's engine. PSP2 is a culmination of changes from an engine started in PSU until then. Some PSZ ideas as well. However, the improvements in balance has a lot to do with what they eventually learned with PSU's system, and what statistical variables they *really* needed to accomplish it.

With PSO2 it's either a revamp of PSO's system, or a new system altogether. Either way, it's a back-to-the-drawing board for Sonic Team. That means they'll likely use something that has no beast or Duman-balanced example to draw from. Thus, if they are doing such a new thing, it's best they concentrate on making it solid first, and then start adding stuff.

AM2's Virtua Fighter worked both that way by design, and also by best practices of how the player learned the game. Capcom is famous for working that way. It's precisely why when a brand new envisioning of a franchise (Street Fighter/Monster Hunter) comes out. You may notice that the fight roster, or weapon selection reverts to a smaller number, but the games are often very tight and solid. Then as it evolves, they carefully add in more stuff being happy with the formula they created and able to work in the new fighters/weapons into that engine.

Or Torchlight. The start of a possible new series, but kind of serves as a reboot to the Diablo formula. They went back to the classic 3 class architypes of Diablo 1, but worked in a tight new system around them. I would imagine, given its popularity, you'll see a sequel, and only then you'll see the roster expand.

Wayu
Dec 4, 2010, 02:56 AM
I have every right to be critical of PSU's design. I'm not moronic enough, as some people seem to think, to hate something for the sake of hating something: I understand design, and I understand the fundamentals of an entertaining experience. PSU was a massive failure outside of Japan for a reason, you know - and it's not some silly reason as "oh, it doesn't have violence/gore/PvP" or "it's too complex for them" or anything like that. Simple fact of the matter is, many people realized, after playing the game that it's certainly got many things wrong with it that are just plain unfriendly to players.

It's one thing to understand a product is flawed, but it's something else entirely to understand what is wrong with it. I'm not stupid enough to think that just because something was in PSU, that means it's bad (and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop acting as if that was the case or even at all implied). In fact, you might realize if you had read some of the earlier statements that I made, that PSU actually did take steps toward things that could have been much better than they actually turned out, such as a less "mechanical" feel to combat and the ability to manually aim ranged weapons (which feel, respectively, too loose and too imprecise).

Guys. Stop attacking each other and not each other's arguments. This is turning into, quote Ami, ELITISM.

Also, I'm not going to take a standpoint on this topic as I've basically said all I wanted to, but the underlined portion caught my interest. Does this mean that you 1) do not hold the right to criticize PSO, which you are defending or 2) you do not want to analyze PSO?

-Wayu

Kent
Dec 4, 2010, 11:54 AM
Also, I'm not going to take a standpoint on this topic as I've basically said all I wanted to, but the underlined portion caught my interest. Does this mean that you 1) do not hold the right to criticize PSO, which you are defending or 2) you do not want to analyze PSO?
It was never implied that either of those is the case - it's simply a false dilemma.

Wayu
Dec 4, 2010, 10:55 PM
Yeah, maybe I'm looking too much into this, but that's how it seemed at the time. Whatever.

-Wayu

DoubleJG
Dec 5, 2010, 12:23 AM
I feel like if Beasts were to return, Dewmans would be tagging along for the ride with them.

Wayu
Dec 5, 2010, 12:44 AM
^

I felt and posted the same. It might throw balance off if SEGA doesn't pull it off correctly, though.

-Wayu

NoiseHERO
Dec 5, 2010, 02:55 AM
I can live without beasts, but if it makes more players happy why not. /cough

If anything we need more races. WE'RE IN SPACE DAMN IT, GIVE US THE FISH PEOPLE AND RACE HYBRIDS.

You're a hater if you don't think a cyborg class would be awesome, then again this game has "infinite content" anyway.

Unit_24
Dec 5, 2010, 01:53 PM
I think they should be added. As far as races go, there isn't much to balancing them as it will mostly be limited to starting stats, growth of stats, and stat caps. If they can't balance that, well what can I say?

I think the PSU job system should be implemented WITH changes. Like a person can switch to different jobs but there are no more weapon restrictions for the classes, leave it to the stats, race, gender, and item restrictions like in PSO. Obviously there are some exceptions like CASTS can't switch to the force job.