PSO or PSU-styled Class System

[Kimil Adrayne]

There's been discussion here and there on this subject in different threads. Lets consolidate some discussion in one thread dedicated to it.

I've played every Phantasy Star game to date, from PSI to PS:P2.

PSO's rigid class/race system could not be copy and pasted (in my opinion) to a game over a decade later without same changes. With the old system there were some gender restriction issues. To be a newman hunter you had to be female for example. Some classes were simply better than others, HUmars were fairly behind the other hunters. Its not all bad though; this rigid system actually meant that class/race combos were different versus PSU's only difference being l stat differences. In some cases these differences in PSU were minor and even fixable with equipment. Another pro of PSO's system was its simplicity with 3 classes. While there were limitations in this system, generally it worked great.

PSU's class system alluded to complete costumization. You could create any combination between the 4 races, 2 genders, and the ~15 classes. With all of these combination, there were a few that were significantly overpowered and plenty that were simply worse than others. I played a female beast Wartecher in PSU for the majority of it and people would comment that I "was good for a wartecher". Still, usefulness and damage output of that class/combo was behind others. Tech limits and efficiencies were class specific in PSU unlike PSO's way of making the specific class/race/gender combos stand out from each other. Some balancing could have helped this but things never really got better for some classes, like my Wartecher.

PSP2 is notable in that it took the PSU's class system and reduced redundancy. At the same time, the ability to customize a class was significantly increased. A con of this in my opinion was again, some customization options were simply bad or overpowered. Sega giving us more options should also come with more active balancing attempts.

So, PSO had rigid, limited class options while PSU had plenty of class options with many of them being crap. Each had pros and cons, I feel the best way to go would be to combine them in someway.

I believe that PSO's system were classes each had their own reason to be was strongest and should be the base of PSO2's class system. Customization options could be implemented by maybe allowing class change down the line, some choice in efficiencies like in PSP2 and make more class combinations available but give them an actual purpose.

My system:

Start by choosing one of the 3 basic roles.
*Hunter - melee
*Ranger - ranged and support
*Force - tech

Each class then breaks down into race specifications (not gender, gender differences would be kept at a minimum past appearance). Basic race roles being humans a the in between with no outstanding weakness (highest combination of defence, evasion, hp and mst), casts being a physical tank (highest attack and physical defence, lowest mst, eva and tech) and newman being the glass cannon (highest tech, mst and lowest def and attack). If beasts were included I would make them similar to that in PSP2 and would take it further.

Beasts had the best evasion in PSP2 and i would let them keep this. On top of that I'd give them low accuracy but higher attack speeds, lower their attack and tech to near human levels and lower PP/TP. Maybe keep highest HP. This role would be good for chaining (if it was kept) but not best for highest damage (physically being cast and teching being newmans). To sum up beasts they would be the ravagers of battle, beserkers if you will. Up in the front lines swiftly taring things up, taking hits with their high HP but evading too. Beasts of battle. /biased maybe, but it could differential them and give them a purpose. They would be the acrofighters now that I think of it.

Note, these race roles can bend depending on the class they are in, similarly to PSO.

Hunter
*HUmar/HUmarl - run of the mill hunter with the average stats for the class but with best average defences. Some basic spells available like first teir attacks, and Resta. Access to many weapon classes. Role: basically, the HUmar of PSO
*HUcast/HUcaseal - Highest attack/defense of hunters. No techs, though access to traps and natural trap detection. Proficiency with heavy equipment. Lowest defense to magic and little evasion. Role: the tank, high damage output but requires healing and support from others
*HUnewm/HUnewearl - Lowest attack and physical defense of hunters. Best magical output and defence of hunters (to the point that its actually worth using in combination with melee). Proficiency with light weapons.. Role: mage/melee hybrid.
*HUbeast/HUbeasle - Highest evade, HP and attack speed. Lowest accuracy and pp/tp. Basic magic, like just resta and maybe a few debuffs and foie. Meant for chaining and fighting up close and keeping enemies occupied. Proficient with
dual wielding [I]Role: Meant for chaining and fighting up close and keeping enemies occupied

Ranger
*RAmar/marl - Run of the mill ranger, with best accuracy and proficiency with medium weight guns (rifles). Magic capabilities are basic, meaning resta and little else.Role: i'll sum them as RAmars from PSO
*RAnewm/newearl - Taking up the role of RAmarls in PSO. The ranger with teching capabilities though mainly useful for support. Lowest attack of rangers but best magic. Proficiency in light and magic ranged weapons. Role: RAmarls from PSO and Guntechers in PSU
*RAcast/caseal - highest attack and defence. lowest magic defence, evasion with no techs at all. proficiency in heavy weapons Role: combined version of RAcast and RAcaseal
*RAbeast/beasle - Low capabilities with accuracy means use of heavy and medium guns are limited. Best with rapid, light guns. Run and gun and mess things up. Similar magic to humans in this class. Role chainging and up from line fighting

Force
*FOmar/FOmarl - Great def/mst/hp for a force. proficiency with medium power techs though access to all tech avail. Some melee ability Role: FOmars of PSO
*FOnewm/FOnewearl - Best magic output in game, worse physical defence. Proficiency with highest power/cost techs though access to all tech avail. role: THE glass cannon. mix of FOnewms and FOnewearls from PSO.
*FOcasts/FOcaseals - In PSU some people realized that this combo was good at being a nurse/supporting role. Most physically sturdy force though average at best MST. Highest procifiency with support techs and only attack spells available are lightning. Some melee/ranged weapon capabilities though attack and def severely reduced to allow teching abilities at all. role: sturdy healer
*FObeast/FObeasle - Good with low teir, quick spells. Highest evasion in the game. With combination of high eva, access to light melee weps, speed and low tp/pp good makes role of beserker mage.



As game progresses, give ability to change class? Maybe, I don't see it as necessary though. Give the ability to customize within the classes similarly PSP2 but don't allow every class to do everything (forces with long swords?)

I typed this up quickly, some sorry if some of it doesn't seem clear. I agree that things like inclusion of beasts and FOcasts aren't necessary.

What are your thoughts? how could the class system be done right in PSO2?

[BIG OLAF]

I'm not one for making long, drawn-out explanations and speeches, but in a nutshell:

I'd like a PSP2 class system. It was great making your own, specialized class. However, I know a lot of PSOers who seethe with unbridled rage at such an idea.

But, as I said in another thread: the "fixed" race/class system would be just fine with me as long as I can simply change clothes. I don't want to spend my entire PSO2 (if I get the game) career in the same outfit just because of my class. That's RPG hell for me, and would ruin my fun.

[Kirukia]

I'm not one for making long, drawn-out explanations and speeches, but in a nutshell:

I'd like a PSP2 class system. It was great making your own, specialized class. However, I know a lot of PSOers who seethe with unbridled rage at such an idea.

But, as I said in another thread: the "fixed" race/class system would be just fine with me as long as I can simply change clothes. I don't want to spend my entire PSO2 (if I get the game) career in the same outfit just because of my class. That's RPG hell for me, and would ruin my fun.

I agree with this.
I personally prefer customizing my own class and picking exactly which weapons I'd like to weild, but I loved PSO and I wouldn't mind the same class system as long as I can customize my actual character appearance a bit instead of looking like every other hunter/ranger/force since only a few of the options were tolerable x__x

[Justyn_Darkcrest]

Honestly I'd like to see something more along the lines of customizable classes as well, but keep the class restricted clothing while adding more outfits. I liked that you could tell who joined your game simply by what they wore but they definatly need more variety so looks don't get stale.

As far as the class itself goes, I'd love to see a system that allows you to pick what type of weapons are available to you and maybe incorperate a point system for selecting what rank you can use (i.e. you get 20 points each wep rank cost 5 or something)

I kinda liked the class lvling idea for PSU but if they're going to keep that idea I'd like to see it overhauled. It was frustrating that certain missions became obsolete due to the low MP.
At least make it so if there is a form of MP, then make it universal to whatever mission/quest you are doing so we don't end up with another tragedy like White Beast.

[CHOX]

I love the customizable classes in PSP2, but I don't want to be stuck on a team with a bunch of people using weapons that don't suit their classes. If I'm playing as a Hunter, Ranger, or Force, I mainly play the role they're supposed to play. I don't want to get stuck with Hunters casting terrible grants, Forces using rifles with terrible ACC, or Rangers trying to use swords.

[Kimil Adrayne]

I didn't talk about clothes, but yes, it would make no sense for classes to have one and only one outfit available to them. That said, I do want SOME class-only wear. They actually did this in PSP2, the default wear for each race could only be worn by that race.

Some mix of rigid structure and customization is key in clothes and the class system.

Weapon customization makes little sense for Forces as magic is their weapon. Allow magic customization options but at the same time I would like to see some of the race build in proficiencies past stats.

Humans could be better with Gi-spells (this was the case for FOmars in PSO), Newmans with Ra and more expensive spells like Megid and Grants (again, already done in PSO with FOnewms and FOnewearls). If casts existed with some teching ability, maybe default with some lightning and if beasts existed give them goods with fire or low tier techs.

On top of that default proficiencies, give options to customize and expand with abilities available to every race and some only race-specific.: Humans could gain proficiency with grants and support spells, maybe power up Gi-spells further while newmans could gain access to powerful ancient spells or simply gain proficiency with specific elements. Elemental boosts/speed of casting increases/access to high level or new techs all together.

I'm babbling on now, just like my first post lol.

[Dongra]

I prefer the PSO method of classes because I am biased. I liked the idea that players would fill a specific roll with their class choice. However, I will say that it will only work if it were completely balanced, which is something Sega is incapable of. Looking back on it now, I felt that some classes, such as Huney and Ramarl, would only fill niche roles that really limited their usefulness while other classes, Humar, remained completely outclassed and served no purpose other than, "I use it because I want to." So yeah, I'll admit that the PSU system allows more flexibility when it comes to class/race choices, and that it is better to change from a class you dislike rather than having to recreate the character. Regardless, some players are going to find a way to play their role poorly.

[Kirukia]

I love the customizable classes in PSP2, but I don't want to be stuck on a team with a bunch of people using weapons that don't suit their classes. If I'm playing as a Hunter, Ranger, or Force, I mainly play the role they're supposed to play. I don't want to get stuck with Hunters casting terrible grants, Forces using rifles with terrible ACC, or Rangers trying to use swords.

But that wouldn't be terribly convenient anyway. Besides the obvious downside of your class being horrible with the weapon and not having the appropriate stats for it, it costs more class points to even have a decent rank with the weapon. That makes it a lot more convenient to just change your class for it.

In other words, the fact that they made it harder for you to use weapons that aren't supposed to be used by your class, makes it less common for this to happen.

I mean I really haven't seen people play like that in my experiences thus far.

[Kimil Adrayne]

One problem with the PSP2 weapon system was it made certain weapons not worth using at all through the points requirements. Why choose a wand if it costs the same for a rod? In fact, just about everyone used rods. Forces, Hunters, Rangers, Vangaurds... everyone. From the time I played PSP2 I found that most people used:
Twin Sabers
Rods
Rifles (if they used guns at all)
EX traps (vangaurds)

No one used:
Swords/axes (any slow weapon)
single handed weapons in general

Why? Twin sabers were simply better than other melee weps (chaining, and that overpowered PA) and so were rods to wands and mags. Why chose anything but these if they cost the same to use? Without SOME restrictions to customization, everyone looks and plays the same.

[Kirukia]

Yeah, I was like. Lol wand or rod? Obviously rod since it's much more powerful.

I actually use swords though for crowd control and I know others too.
But I generally use Twin Sabers since they are just broken.

But that's just more weapon balancing which will hopefully be fixed in Infinity.

[Kent]

That's not necessarily a problem with the customization aspect though - it sounds like more of a problem with balance between weapon types.

That's not to say that restrictions shouldn't be implemented (after all, games in general are pretty much about working within restrictions), but balancing out the various weapon types from each other is important, too. Not to mention, at least with PSU (I'm assuming it's a similar problem in the PSP games), they eliminated the need for many types of weapons just because of how combat works and the whole "this weapon hits X targets" thing that pervaded melee weaponry.

It was problematic in that it was too easy to handle groups of enemies at once using PAs from weapon types that are otherwise single-target weapons. At the same time, this system also served to drastically limit the effectiveness of weapons like Swords when used on groups of enemies, just because they could no longer hit more than three targets at a time - Swords have always had their ability to hit large groups of enemies as their strong point.

It was a case of what appeared to be trying to homogenize weapon types in order to let people play more effectively in any situation with their weapon of choice. This pretty much backfired on the concept of having so many different kinds of weapons in the first place, just because it removed the real bonuses of using more unwieldy weapons (such as Swords), while keeping all of their drawbacks. I suppose one way to look at it, is that it did let people use their weapon of choice for basically everything - it's just that the weapon of choice essentially came down to a very small subset of choices.

[Mike]

Without SOME restrictions to customization, everyone looks and plays the same.
There are restrictions. Weapons not fitting a type cost more points use while those fitting use less. However, you're talking about weapon balance, a problem that goes beyond type barriers, and is not something that could be fixed with restrictions.

EDIT: Kent beat me to it and said it better.

[NoiseHERO]

I liked PSU's class system...just that system seemed hard to balance.

I liked how a lot of people could be unique at least untill the popular classes got buffed (last time I recall fighgunner could pretty much do ANYTHING)

Just three classes and then customize them how you want...ehn...It just feels weird.

I think it would be nice if you could build and name your own class from scratch. Otherwise even though I dislike it I guess psp2's system currently works the best.

Last but not least I were all of these PSOers would be less nazi with their nostalgia crave in terms of game design... though it's not like we're all designing the game anyway so no matter what somebodies gonna be unhappy. But if they're designing the game with the JP public in mind I can only wonder how many PSO Nazis japan has.

[Forever Zero]

I'd like to see PSO's classic system used, only this time complete it. By that I mean bring in the missing race/classes such as HUmarl, Hunwem, RAnewm, RAnewearl, FOcast, FOcaseal.

I really didn't like PSU's class system at all. :/ It was way too redundant, imo.

[Seth Astra]

3 races: Humans, Newmans, and Casts

Gender has no impact on your stats

Humans and Newmans can use Techs

Casts cannot use techs

Humans can be Hunters, Rangers, or Forces

Newmans can be Hunters, Rangers, or Forces

Casts can be Hunters, Rangers, or an exclusive, trap-based class

To further customize your character, you can pick any of the available classes and make that a "subclass," allowing you to boost the proficiencies of the chosen subclass. You can also choose your main class a second time, sacrificing versitility for power.

You can change your main and subclasses at any time between missions.

Classes level as in PSP2, although the skills system would be far more fluent. Instead of the slot-like points in PSP2, the points would be slightly more like the extend points, at least in the fact that you gain large amounts of them. You can spend them to:

Incrementally increase the effectiveness of techs in a variety of ways (decreasing cost, increasing damage, increasing AoE, etc.)

Incrementally increase weapon effectiveness in a variety of ways (increasing damage, decreasing PP cost, increasing critical rate, etc.)

Incrementally increase your base stats

Add additional effects to pre-existing abilities (longer dodge range, new effects added to techs or PAs, etc.)

Using abilities or weapons normally available (e.g. A hunter with a high enough force level could use force only techs, assuming there were any. The techs could NOT be as high-leveled as the techs a hunter normally gets. Similarly, the max tech/PA levels could be increased. [HUs, for instance could increase gun PA and tech max levels. They'd automatically be able to max level melee PAs without any boosts])

Anything else you could do with PSP2's system that doesn't fall in the above.

Abilities that are "associated" with a different class than your main cost more points, although the cost is somewhere in between if the associated class is your sub.

I think that's all I had...

[TheBlackMage]

+1

I like this concept.

[Darki]

I don't agree about everything...

I don't want 3 races only, I'd like to see a fourth race. I'd say beasts because it's my favorite race but I have those in PSU already so I wouldn't care something new. I like humans being the jack-of-all-trades, and that should leave another class to fit the "strongest fighter" or "strongest ranger" role, not givint both to CASTs (which is unbalanced).

And about classes, I want hybrid classes. The secondary class stuff sounds well enough for me IF this is a way to make REAL hybrids, like for example a Beast Force with secondary ability as hunter would make an effective "Wartecher", or going the other way around, a Newman hunter with secondary class as force.

But, I prefer much better the classing system of PSU or something similar, but better balanced and without useless classes such as Acro- or Master- classes (I mean useless not in play performance, of course, but in concept, because for a Master class we can have alreafy a Fortefighter or a Hunter, those two classes are the "main" fighter class so we don't need ANOTHER). Too many classes lead to imbalance and classes getting obsolete, but I'd say having the three "pure" classes (Force, Hunter, Ranger), three "hybrid" classes (Wartecher, Guntecher and Fighgunner), and another two "extra" classes, like Protranser as the heavy weapons user and trapper (but woith rods like in PSPo) and Vanguard as the fast jac k-of-all trades light fighter with techs.

I don't like TECHs being exclusive for fleshies, maybe support techs could be possible to use for CASTs.

[TheBlackMage]

Personally I didn't think it was unbalanced that Casts were the strongest Hunters and Rangers. Now I could see it like that if it was like PSZ where HUcasts could use the strongest melee weapons and the strongest rifles, but in PSO it wasn't like that (at least to my knowledge). HUcasts couldn't use rifles or launchers/shotguns. The only ranged weapons that were common among HUcasts were pistols and mechguns. Likewise RAcasts didn't have access to a lot of melee weapons such as the sword. Therefore a HUcast or a RAcast was not the strongest in melee and ranged. They could only be the strongest in 1 of those categories. If your thinking "Well its still not right that the Cast race itself is the strongest in melee and ranged combat." Casts can't use techs at all in PSO so it was a fair trade off. (In my eyes.)

Personally I think your idea about having 8 classes is way to many. "Wartecher" in PSO was the FOmar, "Guntecher" was the RAmarl, and "Fighgunner" was the HUcaseal. The Protranser class would just seem to be to OP in PSO. The idea being the fact that each of the 3 classes has there class "specific" weapon. Hunters have Swords, Rangers have Rifles, and Forces have Rods. Even if they did have limited access to techs I still think its way OP and the Protranser class should remain in PSU. Also I can't really see the use of a Vanguard in PSO. I could see it if they made Casts able to cast techs and traps were only for the Vanguard class as their class "specific" weapon but again personally. I also think Casts being able to use techs should remain in PSU/PSP.

Just voicing my opinion.

[Darki]

My problem with your "the FOmar was the WT" is very simple, and is that maybe I don't wanna be a human male ONLY to be a "WT", and in the same terms, I might not want to be a female human to be a "GT" or a female CAST to be a "fG". One thing that I liked from PSU was the fact that anybody could be anything, and some thing that I NEVER liked in PSO, to put another example, is that I couldn't be a Newman Ranger, because for some reason, it seems that in PSO, same than CASTs can't use TECHs, newmans get their delicated hands burnt when holding a firearm.

PSO is going to be a multiplayer action game where in theory we choose to be whatever we want, and I don't see a reason to limit specific builds to specific classes when that might break many people's gameplay.

To put it, very simple, PSU has people gotten used to CASTs ATs. And in fact, CASTs are perfect support techers because they are crap techers, so they rely on other ways to deal damage and focus on supportive TECHs, paired with their innate defensive stats and ATA that makes them good to tag everything and deal SEs as ATs. Same with other "impossible" combinations like for example a Newman Guntecher, that "in theory" would be a good gunner because Newmans have pretty good ATA, even being weak phisically, in PSPo2's mechanics they can be very good gunners. In PSO, nwemans can't wield guns, even this not being some supposed race flaw such as CASTs not having "real" brains to produce the psychic energy to use TECHs.

And to put it even simpler, focusing in the idea of my first paragraph, I don't see why is good that to be a wartecher I gotta be a travested human, or a female long-eared latino girl, and that newmans can't be rangers. That's why I prefer PSU's classing system, but as you said, that is my own opinion. Of course if your favorite "class" is "WT" and your favorite race is human male, then you'll be happy, but then any other person who likes other combinations are screwed.

[Kirukia]

If you ask me, we could easily find a balance there.
We could have racial and gender abilities that make them more adept with one class, but you are able to be whatever you'd like.
That way every class can have a role even if you aren't confined to it.

It's still a bit vague to be put to use but it's a start I suppose.

[Darki]

One reason for what I said about less classes than PSU but still some more than PSO, was that having hybrids is not that difficult to balance, having a Hunter, a Fighgunner and a Wartecher, for example, you only need to balance the power of three fighters. Having Force, Wartecher and Guntecher, you just need to adjust the power of three techers, and same with Ranger, Guntecher and Fighgunner.

One problem that PSU had, was that there were a crapload of each roles, like for example fighters. You had Hunter (though it didn't count as being a "basic" class) then had Fortefighter, Fighgunner, Wartecher, Acrofighter, Protranser and Fighmaster, and same happened with techers, specially dividing them between support and offensive. At the end, the differences were too blurred and everything was fucked up.

With six, classes, for example, it shouldn't be that bad. If we come from the basis that each class should be as appealing and "powerful" in their respective roles, then we could put Hunter as the strongest fighter, as it's a "pure" fighter, then Fighgunner slighty weaker but balanced with HU thanks to it's guns, and then Wartecher being the weaker of the three, but powerful in TECH performance making it as offensively capable as the other three. In the same manner, Force would be the strongest techer, as powerful as TECHs as Hunter at melee, then Wartecher would be the second best techer, slighty weaker than FO but balanced by it's melee, and finally Guntecher, who would be mainly a gunner with TECH support.

Also, having less classes would allow HUGE differences between them without being umbalanced. HU could be much stronger than fG and inmensely stronger than WT, but guns in the first would make it as powerful in the general way, and WT's weakness in melee would be balanced by being the second best techers. In PSU, having 7 fighters is something, well, bassically twice as hard to balance.

I'm up with making each race/class combination having an unique trend, like for example making each race have a special abbility in each class. Newman forces could have a TP regeneration feature, while being fighters would give them an attack speed boost and being rangers would make them to naturally increase the elemental proficiency of the bullets. Combinations would lead to two improvements together, like a newman WT getting TP regeneration and speed boost. That would make it up to pure classes being really strong, while hybrids have more "specials" and thus making them appealing too. Also, that would give reasons to play any race as any class, as for example in the bonuses I described, a newman hunter would be a very fast fighter despite it's physical weakness.

On the other hand, the idea of a "Secondary class" looks nice on paper, but nobody seem to notice that that leads to many more possible "subclasses". First you have the three basic classes. If you pick as secondary class the same to "empower the basic class", that's pretty much what Forte-classes are. If you pick another class to make a "hybrid" each hybrid would have two variations: for example a "Wartecher" could be a Hunter based with Force OR a Force based with Hunter. That would add 6 more classes, having in total 9 final classes plus the three basic ones, twelve.

I don't really see this bad, in fact it adds more variations to the game, but in the end that's the same as having "independant class" hybrids. I mean, hybrids as classes can be balanced separatedly from their root classes, and that should be done too in case of using the "secondary class" system to avoid imbalances... So what would be the differences in that, except the name? Another thing would be the weapon proficiencies: you can make the pallette of a hybrid class from zero, and in the "secondary class" system if you want to avoid having all four hunter-based classes using the same Hunter weapons then you'd have to add some restrictions and modifications to each class independently to make them unique.For me that's the same as a "normal" hybrid.

[unicorn]

Um, CASTs used techs way before PSO, so I don't know why all the "CASTS SHOULDNT USE TECHS" thing is about.

I believe they should be the weakest with them, but should have them available.

And I'd like 4 or 5 races. MAYBE 6. Gib Dumans (give them a cooler name though) and Dezolisians pl0x.

[Kimil Adrayne]

In respect to what Darki is saying about ~6 classes be good, I agree. PSU eventually got convoluted as far as what role did what. Acrotechers and fighters stepped on the feet of Wartechers, the acros really didn't need to exist for example.

In PSO, there weren't 3 classes but 12. Each set up wasn't just a Class/Race/gender combo, but an actual role. Some, less useful than others (HUmars). I liked how identity in PSU was more focued on the Races verses a combination that just so happened to require you being a female newman (PSO, if you wanted to play melee/magic support, HUnewearl was your only option).

If the class set up was taken from the PSU point of view of race/gender first and then chose a role, I'd hope that combination would give you more than a certain set of stats modifiers. Ie: race/class specific bonuses.

In PSO2, I hope they don't bother with hybrids: stick to the 3 classes. Class customization and the race/class specific bonuses would allow play as a hybrid though. Example:

Start as Humarl with what ever gender/race/class bonuses would come from that. As you level, put proficiency towards healing magic and buffs. You now effectively have a Watercher (hyrbid). Instead of taking this path, could have gained skill with melee skills to be closer to a Fortefighter (pure).

Edit to avoid double posting:

Yes, I agree on adding races, or at least keeping the ones from PSU. With this said, I still want them to leave the number of classes at 3.

[Darki]

There's another problem at the suggestion about having only the three basic classes and making them "hybrids" using class customizations, and is something very simple. It's impossible to achieve proper balance this way because hybrids would never be equal in performance and usefulness as the main classes.

if you take for example a Hunter, a PSO style HU, and we have to decide to enhance it's stats with materias to make a "Fortefighter" style HU or a "Wartecher" style HU, you have to understand that a Hunter has very low TECH stats from the begining, which means that you'll have to invest many points to increase all Force stats (or at least TECH damage stat) to make it able to use magic that is not useless. This would make you keep your HU stats really low, while your tech stats would still be very very low compared to a Force, so our teching abilities would be really "laughtable". On the other hand, if what you wanna do is a Hunter "Fighgunner" type, you'll find your task much easier, as ranger and hunter stats are very similar: EVP, DFP, ATA. Probably (if ATA is the modifier for ranged damage) a Hunter will have enough ATA to be useful at combat, so if you wanna make a Hunter that excels at ranged weapons too, you can invest many points in ATA, which will also help on your melee abilities, and ATP because you won't need that much ATA to make your guns useful.

See the difference?

Apart from that, you fall again on the same problem as PSO: maybe not so strict as to have to play a HUnewearl to be a good "battlemage" only, but you'll still be stiicked into the same issue that you'll need a specific combination to make what you want IF it's an hybrid, but not if it's a pure. Example: if you make a Hunter, you can make ANY race into it, even with strenght differences they will all be Hunters with the same modifiers to make them "hunters". Same with the other pure classes. On the other hand, if you wanna make a battlemage, you'll have to fall again on the same problem: you MUST make a newman HU or a human FO (or given the case, a beast FO). If you make a beast HU, for example, the stats will be so really different and contrary to use TECHs that it won't even make sense.

BUT, now going to the "hybrid" theme, all those problems get solved easily. First one, you will have already the classes with their own unique set of stats that will make them balanced between them. You won't need to invest those enhancing features to "acquire" the hybridation, and you will be able to improve your class further while being already an hybrid from the beggining, and it won't cause imbalance between roles that are closer in stats to each other, like rangers and hunters.

On the second issue, as those hybrid classes will be pointed from the beggining to each role, any race will be able to do so, with some differences. In this case, you will be able to make a beast Wartecher, and it will be still able to use TECHs, even being weaker than a newman WT, but BOTH wiill be able to use them, AND melee. Everybody as WT will be a battlemage regardless of race or gender.

They could try to make those six classes, completely "pure" or "fifty-fifty": Hunter, Ranger, Force, Wartecher, Guntecher, Fighgunner. Then if someone wants to be a class focused in techs but with some melee, you can have a Beast Force, or a Newman Wartecher, if you want a class focused in melee but with some techs, you can be a newman Hunter, or a Beast Wartecher, or human in any of those roles.

Note that I use always the WT theme because it's the class I know best, don't take offense plz. <_<

[zandra117]

I just dont want to see them turn newmans into space elves again. Newmans are supposed to be really good with light melee weapons.

[Kent]

I just dont want to see them turn newmans into space elves again. Newmans are supposed to be really good with light melee weapons.
Kinda like elves, right?

[Darki]

I don't see newmans as a weak fighters either, but I wouldn't like to see them as ATP powerhouses. For some reason I always picture them as the typical rogue-assassin class with an insane attack speed relying on it to kill things rather than on raw power.

Newmans could get a huge attack speed bonus being Hunters when using twin weapons and one handed weapons (much like an AF, but without beint ATs lol), that could make them as good Hunter classes as CASTs (or beasts if they're included) without imbalancing them.

But no AF, please. AF is the pointless class EVAR, a FiG had the same weapons as AF, they could have given AF's S ranks and speed boost to FiG and then AF wouldn't need to exist.

[NoiseHERO]

Is PSZ the best example of pso's upgraded system?

It still feels freedom limiting no matter how I look at it, pso didn't come out yesterday. >3>;

[Tetsaru]

Here's how I'd do it:


For races, I would have Humans, Newmans, CASTs, Beasts, Dumans, and possibly some from the older Phantasy Star games that I'm not familiar with. Each race (save for Humans, who would be good all-around) would the best in a certain stat: Newmans have the highest TP, CASTs have the best ATA, Beasts have the highest HP, Dumans have the highest ATP, etc. Gender would have no effect on stats, but could still affect things like race/gender-specific equipment.


This may sound a bit radical, but players would not initially choose a class at all. Instead, your class would automatically be defined by your current levels, stat growth, and proficiencies with certain weapons as you progress. For example, after making your character, you would start out as a "Beginner." If you choose to fight primarily with melee weapons like sabers, you will unlock a title as a Hunter, and you could choose to switch to that job. Then, your stat growth would reflect your class, as well as your race, in order to better suit the weapons you like using most. Likewise, if you primarily use guns, you would unlock Ranger, or if you used techer weapons, you would unlock Force. Now, if you decide to mix up weapons a bit, then you could start unlocking classes like Fighgunner, Wartecher, and Guntecher. OR, if you decided to stick with just one weapon, like fists, you could unlock something like "Pugilist" to suit your fighting style. I feel that this kind of system would better reflect what roles players would want their characters to be, instead of merely leveling up a certain job while playing it in a nonconformist way. At the same time, it would still maintain a sense of progression and character growth, and give players something to work towards.


To define which classes become unlocked, each character would have a proficiency level with each weapon, including certain types of techs and traps (similar to FF11). For example, the more often you use handguns, the higher your handgun proficiency level would go up. In doing so, you would gain ATP and ATA bonuses whenever you used handguns. At the same time, you would unlock basic classes like Ranger, which would suit all gun weapons, or later on you could unlock something like "Gunslinger," which would be suited specifically for handguns. I feel that proficiency levels would also serve as a better stat requirement than ATP, ATA, TP, or character levels for equipping certain weapons. It makes more sense to me that a character would need to train him or herself in using greatswords before he or she could equip something like a Chainsawd, for example.


Proficiency levels, as well as other conditions, could also unlock different Photon Arts. For example, if you were playing Ranger and were using a rifle, if you killed 25 ice-element enemies, you would learn Burning Shot. OR, if you were lucky (as it would HAVE to be a pretty rare drop, otherwise it could break the system), you could also find a Burning Shot PA disc drop from an enemy, and you could learn it immediately, or possibly trade/sell it to someone else who needs it. NPC stores could also sell certain basic PA's, but at a high price. Some PA's might also require completing certain quests or training/tutorial missions to unlock. Like in PSU, each PA would level up and become stronger the more you use it, just like proficiency levels.


Armor would most likely be dependent on what class you are, as well as your character and class level. For example, classes that naturally have high EVP, such as Acrofighter, would use lighter armor, where classes like Fortefighter (or possibly some sort of tank-like class) would use much heavier armor. Armor would randomly have between 0 and 4 slots, like in PSO, and new slots could be added in some way, possibly through a blacksmith NPC or other upgrading system of some sort. There would be no Head, Body, Arm, or Extra slot; any unit could be placed in any slot.


Each race would have its own unique special attack. CASTs would have SUV's (they would not take up an armor slot), Beasts would have Nanoblasts, etc. An equipped MAG's Photon Blast could also be used, possibly in conjunction with a race-specific move and/or with other players for even crazier effects!


Upon leveling up a class (possibly through using MP similar to PSU, but more balanced), your stats (ATP, ATA, TP, etc.) would grow to reflect that class, and would change when you switched classes. However, upon leveling your character, not only would your stats grow in accordance with your race, but you would also be given a certain number of points that you could distribute to your stats as you see fit, allowing for even more customization. These stats could also be readjusted in some way, should you decide to change them, but only so often. Players could also find Materials to further boost their stats when consumed, up to a certain cap.

[BIG OLAF]

Each race would have its own unique special attack. CASTs would have SUV's (they would not take up an armor slot), Beasts would have Nanoblasts, etc. An equipped MAG's Photon Blast could also be used, possibly in conjunction with a race-specific move and/or with other players for even crazier effects!

^This. This, right here. A happy medium between Photon Blasts from PSO and the racial specials from PSU.

[Seth Astra]

Hmm... Ah, I forgot... *Goes to create thread regarding PBs, mags, and the like.*

[Kirukia]

I would definitely like to see mags returned. Don't get me wrong Partner Machines can be cool, but I liked how mags followed you around like little pets instead of just more NPCs that fight with you. Plus the fact that they boosted your own stats.

This doesn't really have anything to do with classes but since mags were brought up anyway...

[Kion]

I think partner machines would have been cooler if they didn't turn into loli's for their final evolution. For mags, i think it would be cool if you had the option to raise a companion for battle; the first evolution wouldn't really do anything, but depending on how you raise it it would turn into either a madoog, shadoog, or roaming attack partner.

Item synthesis should still be in the game, but should be done with either NPC's or in your room. There should be synth-only items, and some advantage to being able to customize the weapon.

I liked PSU's class system a lot. It gave you the option to try other styles of game play. With my cast I could switch back and forth between hunter and gunner, or go in between. PSP2 offered too much customization and was generally a pain in the ass having to start with only a couple C-rank items. For classes, I think classes should come with PA limits and a basic set of equipable items and have the option to expand on them.

[NoiseHERO]

Am I the only one that wanted partner machines to go from loli's... to adult moe women/gundam samurai/princesses/with BGLaserG's?

Thinking back I think I prefer midget people over floating psx controller shaped pokemon...

Either that or make mags look cooler... and 2 mags? sounds greedy. @_@ half of em already turn into space fairy wings. D:

[Kirukia]

My mag is angel wings D:

[Omega-z]

I think Tetsaru hit it on the nail. It's what I was thinking too, Also add Racial different looks or combination's like hehe a Mecha-Musk Cat 0.0 :rappy:

[Darki]

I like Tetsaru's idea too. I specially like the idea that stats grow with weapon ussage to match it, is really logic and interesting, because that way your character would get better with their favorite weapons and could drop the ones you don't like without worrying too much about it (like for example, now in PSU, where anybody who can use axes is pretty much obligated to use them, with Jabroga, even if they don't like them, just to be useful). But I see very complicated to adjust, specially the stat part. Stat growth should be better "linked" to the class you use and not overall, or else it would make very developed characters very difficult to change their classes. I like the idea of having some freedom to distribute our points, I'd love that.

There is something that tingled my spider-sense (lol) and it was that about weapon proficiencies. That could be an advanced "version" of GAS upgrades. Instead of changing base stats by getting accustomed to a weapon, you would increase that, the "proficiency". Proficiency bonus would grant basic effects like atk and acc, but this could be further expanded, it has a lot of potential. Proficiency rate could, add special effects to parts of normal attacks (in a way that, a weapon with high proficiency level would have useful "normal" attacks too, not only PAs). For example, Spears could get a defense-piercing effect when at high proficiency rate, in the same way that Bows, and we could also unlock new combo parts for it.

Apart from that, to avoid falling into the same terms like in PSU (having "overused weapons"), we should find a way to balance the usefulness of all of them linked to the proficiency. In that matter, there could exist a proficiency decreasing rate, so if you spend much time without using a weapon, your proficiency with it will drop.

This will also give us an option to "never stop upgrading", literally: if you wanna level up Saber and Sword, you gotta use both, not to spam only one for two weeks till you get them at high level, and then the other. If you did that, the moment you switch to the second weapon to spam it, you'll start losing profiiency with the other. There should be a "safety range" anyways, in which the proficiency level will drop but it won't have effect to the stats, that way yor weapons won't get worse just by picking others and swinging them around a mission or two.

And, even more, this also could be a "single mission killer", by making weapons more unique against some monsters. That way, spamming a mission in which one of your high-rank weapons is not to useful would only lead to you doing the mission worse than you could, or downgrading it in the long term, making you to select a few missions to do where you would exercise all your favorite weapons.

[Omega-z]

I had the same thought on the part of switching classes too. But I don't think it's that bad in not being able to switch very quickly, it would make the person be sure that it was the class they wanted but at the same time could change, but at a much longer rate. Say if your a ForteFighter wanted to go Fortetecher for Ex., It would go something like this FF->WT->Force->FT. That would take along time to do and not a bad idea too, It would give ppl who are board something to do as well. One thing in PSU was that switching classes was to easy and was to easy to get stuck in a certain play style because it was the Fad-Style.

Your right about the deceasing point system with the weapons I think they work that way between C-A rank weapons and proficiency rate for C-S rank, But S rank I think you should be using points once you have the weapons to the A rank level, at a cap amount of points of course. And wouldn't be able to change it unless your class title changes and it moves those points to the new title class.

Hehe having Special Missions that works with certain weapons better then others is a cool idea. It would give everyone some type niche.:):rappy:

[Darki]

There wouldn't be a need for "special" missions, the only thing needed is to give weapons more unique trends and powers, and make monsters with different defensive and ofensive traits. For example, imagine they make Spears to do average damage and pierce defenses, they make swords to hit up to 5 monsters with also average damage, and they make Axes to do insane damage to 1 target. Then there is a mission where ALL monsters are armored with ginormous DFP, another mission where there are craploads of mobs of little-annoying monsters and another mission filled of big bad not-to-many monsters with a crapload of HP.

If you go to the mission with the sea of little monsters with an axe instead of with a sword, you'd be doing it wrong. The axe, even being very very strong, wouldn't deal much damage to those armored monsters, there would be where spears would excel. But, if you try to use a spear against a big HP-filled monster that doesn't have a specific "armored" trait, you'd be doing less damage with it than with axe.

Of course this would be the same with other weapons: Bows would be the armored monster killer while rifle would be the big HP killer. Shotguns would fill the same role as swords as mob killer. In case of TECHs, same goes with basic and area TECHs, but they wouldn't need to be geared against armored monsters as they'd be armored against phisical damage, not magic.

On the other hand, even having those specific uses for weapons (which is logic, in PSU everything kills everything which is boring, we could say there you can eat a soup with a fork, the idea is to encourage people to use the damn spoon, if you get me, lol); even then, ther could be some similarity between some weapons and special abilities taken away from normal weapon behaviour to not to encase them into an unique role. For example, in case of the sword, even being a mob killer it could feature also a "rare" abbility (let's say a PA) that would instead make it a single monster killer dealing also a brutal amount of damage (I'm taking here the example of Gravity Break), or making Spears attack area too, in a Partisan-like way. Apart from that, to give the player more diversity, some weapons would fill similar roles, like Double Sabers being mob killers too, or sabers being single monster damage dealers.

Another thing that I didn't like from PSU and that should be REALLY solved in PSO2 is the "resistances" in monsters. In theory we have melee, TECH and buller proof monsters, but in the end, those differences are useless, because a strong hunter type can pwn any monster, for example.

If a monster is MELEE RESISTANT, even a Force 20 levels than that Hunter should be able to kill it at least twice as fast even with a not too powerful spell. Some melee resistant monsters could even nullify any melee damage dealt and should be taken out ONLY by bullets and/or magic.

Also, resistances could work against other damage types too, for example a melee resistant monster would dramatically decrease the melee damage dealt, but it would also slighty decrease bullet damage (as it's physical too), and the only source able to deal 100% damage would be magic. Similar traits could be applied to any other resistance, like for example bullet resistant monsters reducing a bit TECHs too, as they're "ranged attacks".

[Aumi]

I'd like to see MAGs return for an extra level of customization and depth, but I want the actual class system to be more like PSP2. Pretty much a bunch of pre-made classes with customizable weapon sets and extra abilities. I just like the idea of a system that allows you to choose your own unique style.

[Randomness]

Honestly, I just want to be able to change classes on a character, so I don't need to level a million alts.

I think PSP2 was a little overboard in how you had to customize to even get B ranks in it... I think there should be fixed things a class can always use, some you can add, and some you cannot add for a given class. Basically, there should be some weapons/weapon types only certain classes can use, while others may be more open. Hunters shouldn't ever have to unlock sabers or swords, for instance, though they might have to opt-in on axes, even if nobody else can use axes (So they're gaining axes at the cost of not getting something that gives flexibility-moving towards Fortefighter style kits as opposed to wartecher or something, without such strict definitions)

But above all, I want one character to be able to change their class, even if some class leveling is required.

Also, regarding outfits, some class-restricted or race-restricted stuff is fine, but I want to see most appearance stuff be available to everyone. (Obviously, cast-only stuff being the most numerous of restricted things) I'd like them to add maybe icons next to player names for classes or something, to make it easy to identify people without restricting options for appearance.

[Darki]

About that matter, I'd love if SEGAC respected the idea of class-exclusive weapons.

I don't know why, but I like off-class weapons, like Whips being Force-class melee weapon, RCSMs being some sort of TECH weapon even being a shooting turret, and Bows and Cards being Force-class ranged weapons. This could be expanded further, and make a couple weapons with unique traits exclusive to other classes than the normal, and then you got at first Double Saber as exclusive for FiG

Sadly SEGAC wiped it's ass with this at the middle of the game giving some weapons to classes that shouldn't have, like Cards to AF and Double Sabers to GT.

So I don't know. I'd love to see a set of weapons like a melee weapon for rangers, a ranged weapon for forces, a TECH weapon for Hunters, etc. This would be very nice for races out of their natural class. A Newman would find this TECH weapon for hunter much more useful than other normal hunter weapons, and at the same time would excel at it compared to other races not so gifted in TECH abbilities.

[keizeh]

I just hope they get rid of mirage blasts and nano blasts in favor of photon blasts.
Mags were one of the best parts of PSO.
It'd also be cool if they had it so you could choose the mags color PSZ style.

[Darki]

^ And why can't "photon blasts" in PSO2 be a bit more race-dependant instead of the same shit all the time for everybody?

I liked PBs in PSO but the fact that PSPo2i has it's "unique" type of blast for each race (except humans and newmans, but oh, well) gives more chilly to the game. Maybe the MAG could be the catalyst that unlocks nanoblasts, Mirage Blasts and SUVs.

[Wayu]

PSP2i class system おねがいたします。

PSO's class system was too rigid for me. Too limiting.

-Wayu

[funkyskunk]

I must admit, the first time I realised we could use any weapons we like in PSP2, it did put me off a bit. Some weapons should be class unique really:

Forces: Rods and wands (let the others have tech mags)
Vanguards: EX Traps.
Hunters: Swords
Rangers: Grenade launchers / Shotguns

As an example - If only forces could use rods, how much would that make you want to have a force in your team compared to if you can use a rod yourself? I think it's quite a significant thing. Think back to PSO and how you would like to have a ranger in your team to stunlock the mobs with that spread needle.

The ideal team should be 1 of each class and anything else should cause imbalance and force you to play better to clear the stage. Challenge mode should be scrutinised for the way that it works; you share items, give certain items to certain classes, some bosses take forever if you do not have the correct class on your team etc. It just makes a whole lotta sense to me and was what I was lead to believe that PSO was going to be when i first read that dreamcast magazine (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_B29YBTxAWCg/TH5kzSl09FI/AAAAAAAAA6M/FQadiSur4e0/s1600/P1020148.JPG) all those years ago..

[Kirukia]

As an example - If only forces could use rods, how much would that make you want to have a force in your team compared to if you can use a rod yourself?

You'd be surprised :p
Generally as any other class, you're going to focus on fighting. Since you're not a healer hunter/ranger/vanguard, you don't have certain skills (faster heals and longer range) that forces have that can benefit them, on top of the fact that they have higher levels and longer lasting buffs/debuffs. It's not practical at all for another class to take this role, even if they can. I've played levels with/without a force, and it really does make a big difference.

Especially since for the most part, it's costs a lot of extend points for other classes to use wands and rods, although I think vanguards can become adept with wands.

I mean I don't see how it's much different than PSO. You could use resta and spells in there too. They just weren't as powerful and you couldn't level them as much. I don't think it would be very fair to not be able to use techs at all if you're not a force >__>

[Arkios]

I truly hope that they veer off from PSU's class system. It was one the of BIGGEST reasons I quit originally.

By allowing a single character to swap between classes, weapons, etc. so easily it just homogenized all of the races/classes. It made it feel like what you selected to play as didn't matter outside of some trivial stat differences and aesthetics.

In PSO it was evident from the start that a FOmar and a FOnewman had very different playstyles. The use of section IDs and Mags also made you WANT to play different characters. Getting from Normal to Ultimate could be done in a day offline if you had a MAG and some items to pass down to your alt... so it's not like leveling an alt was a huge "grind"/"timesink" like it is in other games.

Perhaps this aspect changed in PSU after patches/expansion(s)... but that is how I remember it playing out.

[Mike]

This may sound a bit radical, but players would not initially choose a class at all. Instead, your class would automatically be defined by your current levels, stat growth, and proficiencies with certain weapons as you progress. For example, after making your character, you would start out as a "Beginner." If you choose to fight primarily with melee weapons like sabers, you will unlock a title as a Hunter, and you could choose to switch to that job. Then, your stat growth would reflect your class, as well as your race, in order to better suit the weapons you like using most. Likewise, if you primarily use guns, you would unlock Ranger, or if you used techer weapons, you would unlock Force. Now, if you decide to mix up weapons a bit, then you could start unlocking classes like Fighgunner, Wartecher, and Guntecher. OR, if you decided to stick with just one weapon, like fists, you could unlock something like "Pugilist" to suit your fighting style. I feel that this kind of system would better reflect what roles players would want their characters to be, instead of merely leveling up a certain job while playing it in a nonconformist way. At the same time, it would still maintain a sense of progression and character growth, and give players something to work towards.
While not exactly the same, this is kind of how the King's Field games did class. King's Field didn't limit you to weapons by class though but it's a different game. It would certainly annoy the heck out of the people who don't want you to be able to change your type once you create your character.


By allowing a single character to swap between classes, weapons, etc. so easily it just homogenized all of the races/classes. It made it feel like what you selected to play as didn't matter outside of some trivial stat differences and aesthetics.
Perhaps you should have played longer because force =/= hunter, even if you change your type.

[NoGoBoard]

Alright guys, I had this pretty interesting idea for what I would personally like them to do with the class system. I sort've came up with it while watching my friend play Mass Effect.

In Mass Effect, each class has a set of skills which they are allowed to put points into, thus making them more powerful. Each point increases these stats by a certain percentage with the overall goal of eventually maxing them out. A good example would be the Soldier, who can improve their damage, accuracy and unlock skills with any gun type in the game; improve their armor strength as well as their overall health pool and health regeneration.

Now if we were to apply that to Phantasy Star, every class would have access to a number of skills based on what their proficient with. While this would create a certain level of homogenization for TECHs and Photon Arts, I believe it would allow more diversity amongst characters. Here's some example skills I developed for the Hunter class.


One-Handed Melee
Improves damage and accuracy with one-handed melee weapons. Unlocks B, A and S weapon ranks. Unlocks Photon Arts for one-handed melee weapons.

Two-Handed Melee
Improves damage and accuracy with two-handed melee weapons. Unlocks B, A and S weapon ranks. Unlocks Photon Arts for two-handed melee weapons.

Dual-Wielding Melee
Improves damage and accuracy while dual-wielding melee weapons. Unlocks B, A and S weapon ranks. Unlocks Photon Arts for dual-wielded melee weapons.

One-Handed Ranged
Improves damage and accuracy with one-handed ranged weapons. Unlocks B and A weapon ranks. Unlocks Photon Arts for one-handed ranged weapons.

Combat Armor
Improves the damage reduction of all armor types. Unlocks the next armor rank available.

Tactical Armor
Improves EVP. Improves HP/TP regeneration. Unlocks Enhanced Regeneration Photon Art.

Combat Endurance
Increases maximum HP and TP. Unlocks Enchanced Endurance Photon Art.

Combat Effectiveness
Improves Photon Art, TECH and Trap effectiveness. Improves ATP and ATA with all weapons. Unlocks Enhanced Offensive Photon Art.

Depending on the race (gender will have no effect on base stats) you've chosen, you will have access to a subset of those abilities as a Hunter. These are your four Starter Skills and are usually based on which stat bonuses your race has.


HUmars/HUmarls have +10% ATP and ATA, so their stating skills are One-Handed Melee, Dual-Wielding Melee, One-Handed Ranged and Combat Effectiveness.

HUnewms/HUnewearls have +10% MST and EVP, so their starting skills are One-Handed Melee, One-Handed Ranged, Tactical Armor and Combat Effectiveness.

HUcasts/HUcaseal have +10% HP and DFP, so their starting skills are One-Handed Melee, Two-Handed Melee, Combat Armor and Combat Endurance.

When a character reaches a certain level, they will either gain access to a second subset of four skills or expand their knowledge into the full set of their original class' eight skills. Doing this also unlocks a ninth skill, named after the class that you ended up choosing which greatly enhances the stats and other abilities related to your class' role.

For example, a Fortefighter (a Hunter who has chosen to get all eight of their class skills) has the Fortefighter skill, which increases their max HP and improves their damage and damage reduction from armor, essentially making them a 'tank' class.

I know we'll most definitely not see this in the game and I know a lot of you are probably going to bash my idea because it deviates too much from PSO and even PSU. But it was just an idea, and maybe some food for thought.

[Ieora]

The real problem with all this is, and this is coming from an idiot who's wasted way to much time into MMOs, both free and pay to play, we want such massive amounts of versatility with our own PC (player characters) and multiple races/classes. Think to mass effect. you had a few classes, one race, both genders, and a ton of customization beyond that. but at the same time, that was it. the only part of the gameplay that changed was the combat. Now, in a game like that where it's viable to ignore combat (to an extent), that works. PSO/PSU is combat centered. and for every R/C/G combo to be unique, or for them to all be the same, is gonna cause issues either way. The closest I can have to a solutions is this:

You have our basic 3 races and classes. (I say 3 because I honestly felt Beasts really weren't that cool of an idea.) Now, unlike this one, where Newman males had 1 (Yep, just FOnewm,) Class, we make things a little better. Similiar to the PS0 classes, HUs can be any race, and hoomans can be any class. Newmans =/= Rangers, and CASTS =/= Forces. Weapon abilities can very class to class, but the real trick is the spells/skills that you can learn. from what we have so far, tghere are two types. PSO, where you had to hunt discs, or PSU, which was simply spam the living fsck out of the ability. Neither really appeals to me personally, and I'd guess the same for most. The best we can do is make it some kind of specialization (sorta like how you could link all of one kind of spell to a weapon in PSU to give it the element,) But instead, it's more in the MMO fashion, that there's another person/group of persons near the shops (or in the guild) that can "Train" you into new skills/upgrade new ones. This can also be done to allow for more fine tuning within the class. Moreover, at a certain level, you could "subclass" one other (this could be a heavy impediment to CASTs and Newmans, or just a buff to make hoomans more versatile," and train into skills of that type. Skills could go in two forms. Skill trees (diablo II, if you've played it.) Or in the Spec style, in which you have base specs, E.G. Fire magic, Ice magic, Thunder magic, as a Force, and as you put points into it, the spells get upgraded and gain new ones. (this would also be cool if placing points into two skills could create fusions, a good example being that a fire mage with a certain level in ice as a "Steam heal" or something like that, the best notion of that would be Quest 64, if anyone else has ever played that.) Besides that, there's also the team effort, with each player fitting it's own niche. now, with classes/races/genders set to their basic bonuses, this still leaves a ton of customization for people, though I can see an elitist community berating players that don't use certain types/subtypes. Of course, even with all our speculation, we've still got one major thing to deal with. This is made by sonic team.

My 2 cents. Hope half of it made sense. (it did in my head, at any rate.)

[Vintasticvin]

Here I'll make this too simple for the thread its populace will think its dumb.

1.) Pick a battle style. FO, HU, or RA

2.) Heres the list of equipable weapon types you can use

3.) Your basic stats and mag

4.) Use stat material boosters and statisticaly customize the mag to suit your needs.

BADDA BING..... BADDA BOOM, nuff said.

[Abashi76]

I think they should mix the ideas of the two games. But i honestly think they should have the stats like they were in PSO, where TP is used to cast techniques, not weapon PP!


Here I'll make this too simple for the thread its populace will think its dumb.

1.) Pick a battle style. FO, HU, or RA

2.) Heres the list of equipable weapon types you can use

3.) Your basic stats and mag

4.) Use stat material boosters and statisticaly customize the mag to suit your needs.

BADDA BING..... BADDA BOOM, nuff said.

I agree, i think the game should be more like PSO. Except, they can make it more customizable like PSU, but otherwise more like PSO.

[Wayu]

Well, the recent PS games have garnered lots of attention through their customization, so I don't think they'll downtone that in any way.

Sorry, PSO purists, but I'm quite certain SEGA's marketing of PSU/PSP's customization will stick.

-Wayu

[RenzokukenZ]

And it's a good thing. Even the PSO Purists have to appreciate the possibly of Hunters running around with Shotguns again, which might I add can be done in PSP2/i.

But from a more traditionalist perspective, the idea that each class can only equip certain gear gives each class a more concrete purpose. This is still strong in the PSP series, especially in Infinity where certain abilities are class exclusive. This is their way of combining both systems, albiet not as strong, but a good starting point.

[NoiseHERO]

Didn't the first bits of information we even got say that we'll only be getting MORE customization from building up your character to appearance as well?

Which kind of nullifies a LOT of recent arguments over how people think this game SHOULD be made...>_>;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

[Arkios]

Didn't the first bits of information we even got say that we'll only be getting MORE customization from building up your character to appearance as well?

Which kind of nullifies a LOT of recent arguments over how people think this game SHOULD be made...>_>;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

I don't think some loosely translated phrases from a teaser video really give us any insight into what the game is going to be like.

You are probably right though.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I felt the need to stir up controversy by repeating my ideas that everyone seems to dislike. So here's what I'd do.


Sex has zero impact on your stats. It basically only effects what clothes you can wear. On a related note, having clothing limited to a certain class or whatever is INCREDIBLY STUPID HOLY SHIT.

Similarly, race has zero impact on your stats. The only difference beyond the aesthetic would be in racial special ability, which would have to be extremely well balanced (otherwise just leave racial abilities out completely).

For classes, there would be only four: hunter, ranger, force, and some hybrid thing (something along the lines of Acrotecher, mostly). You would be able to change your class at any time as in PSU. Additionally, there would need to be an incredibly deep class customization system, similar to the way GAS works, but taken to the next level. Basically, everything would be customizable. Stats, weapons, PAs (or whatever their equivalent will be), every aspect of your class.

This is irrefutably the best possible way to set up a class system.

"But wait," you exclaim, "having all races be the same would make it basically pointless to play more than one character!"

To which I respond, coyly, "You say that like it is a bad thing."

[RenzokukenZ]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I felt the need to stir up controversy by repeating my ideas that everyone seems to dislike. So here's what I'd do.


Sex has zero impact on your stats. It basically only effects what clothes you can wear. On a related note, having clothing limited to a certain class or whatever is INCREDIBLY STUPID HOLY SHIT.

Similarly, race has zero impact on your stats. The only difference beyond the aesthetic would be in racial special ability, which would have to be extremely well balanced (otherwise just leave racial abilities out completely).

For classes, there would be only four: hunter, ranger, force, and some hybrid thing (something along the lines of Acrotecher, mostly). You would be able to change your class at any time as in PSU. Additionally, there would need to be an incredibly deep class customization system, similar to the way GAS works, but taken to the next level. Basically, everything would be customizable. Stats, weapons, PAs (or whatever their equivalent will be), every aspect of your class.

This is irrefutably the best possible way to set up a class system.

"But wait," you exclaim, "having all races be the same would make it basically pointless to play more than one character!"

To which I respond, coyly, "You say that like it is a bad thing."

I'm assuming you never touched PSP2.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I do not have a PSP, but I know what you are getting at. That's exactly the kind of system I'm talking about, but with even more options for customizing.

Also I am dead serious about races having the same stats. Would love to see that.

[RenzokukenZ]

The 'all races have the same stats' wouldn't really work from an in-game perspective. It wouldn't make sense for a Human to be as strong or accurate as a Cast, or a Cast being very willed with Techs as Newmans, or Newmans having the same physical survivability as a Human.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Who cares if it makes sense, balance is far more important.

[RenzokukenZ]

By turning everyone into Jack-of-all-trades? That would eliminate the purpose of different races.

Why not implement racial abilities instead, sort of like how the FOs had it in PSO but spread it around with the races.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

The purpose of race would be whether you want pointy ears, or if you want to look like a refrigerator.

And nothing else.

[Tetsaru]

The purpose of race would be whether you want pointy ears, or if you want to look like a refrigerator.

And nothing else.

If that's all race would be good for, then you might as well not have them at all and just implement them as character creation options... which would piss off a lot of people who want their character to naturally be good in certain stats. =/

Uniqueness is something people value when they make their own character in a game, whether it's cosmetic appearance or proficiency in certain areas of combat. Balancing in-game mechanics is indeed important, but so is giving players options. It's better to be able to choose what kind of playstyle you want, rather than force everyone to be like everyone else.

Think of it this way: if all characters started out at the EXACT same stats and naturally levels up with the EXACT same natural stat boosts, then what class would you be good at? There would be no point in selecting a class at all because everyone would be equally good at everything. The RPG - the "Role-Playing Game" - would no longer exist because there wouldn't be any "roles" left; no one specializes in a certain area that makes them valuable in a team. You wouldn't have the damage-dealer to carry the team, you wouldn't have the mage nuking enemies with spells, you wouldn't have the accurate long-range guy to hit enemies from a distance, why? Because those roles are no longer established because EVERYONE CAN DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

"But wait, Tetsaru! What about the customization to stats??" Sure, that would change things up, but how many stat points would you get, and how often? How many points towards, say, ATP would it take (and how long to earn them) to see a significant increase in damage, rather than just getting a new weapon or item to boost it for you? Are your stats maintained regardless of what class you choose, or are they adjusted? Are there caps for each stat? Things like this also need to be taken into account. Depending on how heavily each stat is weighed and how it corresponds to combat formulas, it might not make much of a difference, or it could be game-breaking. For example, if two people started out at level 1 with the EXACT same stats (say, all of them at 10, just for simplicity's sake), then leveled up and were able to add 3 points to whatever stats they wished - say one person put all 3 points into ATP and the other only put 2 into ATP and 1 into something else - then both people start attacking Boomas... what would be their resulting damage? If they're both using the same weapon as well, both players might still be hitting for the same numbers due to whatever in-game formulas are used. There might be some sort of small, but random modifier that affects each hit, like how PSU's Ank Bico weapon varied wildly in damage with each attack. On the other hand, one player could distribute all of his points into nothing but ATP, while the other goes for a more balanced approach, but the first player is considered "better" because, due to the way the game is set up, he can simply strongarm his way through everything, where the other player has trouble killing things because the other stats he put his points into simply don't carry as much weight (similar to how elemental %'s on armor in PSU were much more important than DFP or MST). As such, communities might develop the elitist mentality of "pure ATP Hunters only," etc., which would obviously suck, especially if you were unable to redistribute your points and had start a new character from scratch... even moreso if Sega starts charging monthly fees based on how many characters you have. :(

In my opinion, races and classes NEED to be different because, quite simply, you can't have a role-playing game without having different characters being good at different things. Even so, this doesn't necessarily mean that players have to be pigeonholed into specific roles if they don't want to be. Sure, Newmans are generally the best race with spells, but depending on how you customize one, they could also be proficient in other areas. Or, if you wanted to, capitalize on your strengths, and customize your Newman to be GODLY with spells. That's entirely YOUR choice to make as the gamer, and that's what draws people in. No one is interested in a game with multiple characters if everyone is the same. :confused:

Also, I stand by my own idea for a class system: have the game automatically unlock a vast multitude of classes to match your own playstyle, rather than simply choosing between certain roles by default. If you like using nothing but spear weapons, there could be a Lancer class SPECIFICALLY for people who wanted to do just that, and have unique PA's associated with it as you level it up. You could unlock Wartecher if you frequently use both melee and spell attacks, etc. Basically, you would have certain "proficiency" stats with each weapon, spell, and PA to determine how well you are with each, and how each class is unlocked. You would have both a character level, and a level for each job, AND you could change jobs at any time outside of missions, like in PSU (personally, I don't believe in the idea of changing roles mid-battle unless you're some sort of hybrid/jack-of-all-trades job by default). When you level up your job, your stats will increase to reflect that job while you're using it, but when you level up your character, your stats will increase to reflect your race, and then you could distribute extra points as you see fit to further customize it. Finally, certain PA's could only be learned from certain jobs (for example, Dus Majarra can only be learned if you play as a Lancer to make it more unique), BUT you could later use them in other jobs, albeit at a somewhat lesser efficiency, if certain conditions are met (say, you learn Dus Majarra when Lancer hits Level 10, but Hunter could also use it at Level 15, but not quite as well, and Ranger couldn't use it at all, despite being able to wield spears). Something like that. :)

[RenzokukenZ]

That's pretty much the basis that every single RPG game with race/class combos consists on. I applaud you.

And your idea sounds similar to that of Final Fantasy XI, and personally I always liked FF's Job System. It's sort of how PSU took it, albiet very badly from what I hear, but maybe they can give that a shot for PSO2.

[Wayu]

The purpose of race would be whether you want pointy ears, or if you want to look like a refrigerator.

And nothing else.

Then why're you on a site about PS? ^^;

-Wayu

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

words

Yeah well no shit, balance is the one thing more important than customization options. If it isn't carefully balanced or certain stats are more worthwhile than others, the whole house of cards comes toppling down.

And regarding all characters being the same at the start, with my idea, you would choose which class to start as when making your character, and each class would have some pretty significant stat modifiers. So every level 1 hunter would be the same as every other level 1 hunter, but vastly different from a level 1 force.

Also, with my idea, customizations would be reversible, because I really, really hate games that let you choose your own stats and later punish you for not making the right decision.


Anyway, your idea with proficiencies and all is pretty good too. I still prefer actively being able to choose through a GAS-like system, though.

And I still say that race should be a purely cosmetic choice, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

[Saligun]

Anyone think these two character classes will finally make it into PSO2?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I think we don't have any idea how classes will work in PSO2, so you should have kept this in one of the several other class speculation topics.


Also hopefully they won't have the same rigid class structure as PSO did, because that is really stupid and dumb and antiquated as hell.

[AlexCraig]

We understand that you do not like the PSO-style class system or... well, ANYTHING PSO. You've made your point.

As for myself, I hope it is akin to PSO. Each class had a role to fill, each race had unique traits about them.

[Seth Astra]

@Saligun: They added them in PSZ, I don't see why not. Also a RAnewm/newearl to fill the old RAmarl role would be nice.

[NoiseHERO]

The pop-ups in the video said MOAR customization on building up your character...

I don't think they'd say it for no reason only to end up going back to huenew-world-earls. D:

[Alisha]

pso style classes plz!

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

pso style classes plz!Why? It's so antiquated and limiting.

[Arkios]

Why? It's so antiquated and limiting.

Because some people like to feel like their decision to play a specific class/race actually matters.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I'd rather have a system where I can make a lot of little decisions to tweak my character to be exactly how I want it, than a system where I only get to make one decision that determines everything else.

I don't really see why anyone would prefer the PSO system. I really cannot comprehend it.

[Dongra]

Requires less thought and planning.

[Arkios]

I'd rather have a system where I can make a lot of little decisions to tweak my character to be exactly how I want it, than a system where I only get to make one decision that determines everything else.

I don't really see why anyone would prefer the PSO system. I really cannot comprehend it.

I felt like I had more than enough information from the start to select the type of playstyle that I wanted. If I felt like playing something else, I could just create a new character.

Having TOO many decisions always results in there being a single "best" series of decisions, which then ruins the entire concept. I'd rather be forced into one direction with a class system, with very few different routes to take. (A lot of MMOs/RPGs these days use the "Talent System" to accomplish this, which works pretty well)

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I'm sorry, but the argument of "a lot of little customizations would be too hard to balance" kind of loses its validity considering they couldn't balance PSO's simple as fuck system even remotely well.

[Arkios]

I'm sorry, but the argument of "a lot of little customizations would be too hard to balance" kind of loses its validity considering they couldn't balance PSO's simple as fuck system even remotely well.

I suppose it depends on what type of "customizations" you are looking to see.

[Alisha]

Why? It's so antiquated and limiting.

wow i havent been here for years but i see you havent changed much...

the issue here for me is class identity wich was a huge problem for me in psu. class identity is one of my reasons for picking classes. i suppose if they scrapped the clothing system i might me more open to more open ended classes.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I suppose it depends on what type of "customizations" you are looking to see.Stats, weapons, abilities, everything. Sure, it would be hell to balance, but if they pull it off, it would be glorious.
wow i havent been here for years but i see you havent changed much...

the issue here for me is class identity wich was a huge problem for me in psu.Yeah, I'm a jerk. What exactly do you mean by "class identity," though?

[Arkios]

Stats, weapons, abilities, everything. Sure, it would be hell to balance, but if they pull it off, it would be glorious.

Games that have been out for years, with huge amounts of resources haven't been able to pull this off. I guarantee that PSO2 would not be able to pull it off either.

Would that be cool, sure. So long as it doesn't allow you to turn your "Hunter" into a "Ranger" by making enough customizations.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Right. I mean, they won't be able to balance whatever system they go with, so I'd still prefer an imbalanced system with a ton of choices to an imbalanced system with only a few, very limiting choices.

[Arkios]

Right. I mean, they won't be able to balance whatever system they go with, so I'd still prefer an imbalanced system with a ton of choices to an imbalanced system with only a few, very limiting choices.

I don't know about that. PSO classes were balanced decently. Nothing was unplayable and unless you played a HUmar or a RAcaseal, then you were OK... and even those were fine there were just better alternatives.

[Juza]

Stats, weapons, abilities, everything. Sure, it would be hell to balance, but if they pull it off, it would be glorious.

This.

Classes are a quaint, antiquated relic from an era of game design that we should be long past.

As for balance, it really wouldn't be difficult at all. Sure, the potential to make a completely broken, unplayable character would be there; and you'd no doubt have plenty of flavor-of-the-month'ing going on with certain weapon/ability setups - but there was no shortage of the latter in PSU or PSO for that matter.

Fairly simple to fix, especially if you're looking at a power-increase-through-use ability system. Kind of grindy and meh, that, but it worked rather well in PSU - even if you switched types, you were still potentially crap without leveling your techs and PAs up. But you *could* do that, if you found out your type sucked that badly that you wanted to switch to something else.

Choice rules and annoyance by game mechanics is not difficulty, just annoyance. Customization for the win! COMRADES OF ALGO, JOIN ME IN THE GLORIOUS STRUGGLE AGAINST CLASS!

[Alisha]

i guess as long as i can get my fomarl without looking like a character from jet grind radio ill be cool though i did enjoy the classes in PSZ.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I don't know about that. PSO classes were balanced decently.Not even close. Rangers were the best at everything, and forces were worthless beyond support.
i guess as long as i can get my fomarl without looking like a character from jet grind radio ill be cool though i did enjoy the classes in PSZ.So I guess that by "class identity" you meant being able to identify a class by looking at it? Sorry, but that's completely inconsequential in every possible way.

[Arkios]

Not even close. Rangers were the best at everything, and forces were worthless beyond support.

If anything, ATA was too important, but that doesn't mean the classes were broken. I was quite capable of beating anything with any class and had fun playing them all.

Rangers were not the best at support. Rangers were not the best at c-mode.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

To be fair, the classes themselves weren't broken so much as the weaponry to which they had access was extremely imbalanced and broken.

[Dongra]

I still think it's funny that Hunters were actually the worst at hunting.

[Alisha]

Not even close. Rangers were the best at everything, and forces were worthless beyond support.So I guess that by "class identity" you meant being able to identify a class by looking at it? Sorry, but that's completely inconsequential in every possible way.

this again? im not gonna waste my time explaing why melee forces were good since im pretty sure we had this arguement like 3-4 years ago before pso came out when we were all pining for media.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Sorry for being vague, but I'm well aware of that fact. I should have said that techs were useless beyond support. You must be recalling an argument with a different asshole, as I've always espoused the benefits of melee Forces in PSO.

I had a level 200 melee FOmar on BB, mind.

[Alisha]

probally my bad. i think outside of casting ra techs for tagging i only used grants.

[MadDogg]

If anything, ATA was too important, but that doesn't mean the classes were broken. I was quite capable of beating anything with any class and had fun playing them all.

Rangers were not the best at support. Rangers were not the best at c-mode.

True that, wasn't that hard really to do whatever you wanted with whatever class. All my years playing the PSO games and I've never actually had a high level ranger. I did all my stuff on episode 1 and 2 as a hunewearl which I got to 200, soloing ttf and what have you.

After a lot of thinking comparing the old school PSO set up to portable 2, I kind of prefer the PSO way. I'm a fan of my characters having set roles, set spells, and set weapons to work with. Basically, I'm not too huge a fan of the final fantasy 10 style of doing everything, I'm more a fan of the final fantasy 6 and 9 style of working with what you got.

[Kaziel]

It's going to be a PSO2-styled Class System. :wacko:

[NoiseHERO]

It's going to be a PSO2-styled Class System. :wacko:

This is why she dumped you, you didn't tell her what she wanted to hear. D<

Oh yeah and aren't we supposed to get some more information this month hopefully? Or was that postponed?

*hopefully more than just a couple pieces of info and mysterious hype teasers*

[RenzokukenZ]

Then prepare to be trolled the only way Sega knows how.

[LK1721]

I'm not one for making long, drawn-out explanations and speeches, but in a nutshell:

I'd like a PSP2 class system. It was great making your own, specialized class. However, I know a lot of PSOers who seethe with unbridled rage at such an idea.

But, as I said in another thread: the "fixed" race/class system would be just fine with me as long as I can simply change clothes. I don't want to spend my entire PSO2 (if I get the game) career in the same outfit just because of my class. That's RPG hell for me, and would ruin my fun.
If it had to be between the two, this here quote voices my opinion.
Otherwise...it might be...you know....PSO 2's class system?

[Kaziel]

This is why she dumped you, you didn't tell her what she wanted to hear. D<

She was asking for it.


& I don't think we were supposed to get any information, even if we did it wouldn't be much, since the first test will have a NDA.

[yoshiblue]

If they are going to add PSU races, they could always add the beast and dewmen as an unlock able race?

Maybe add a whole new class based on defending or traps.
DEF: Shield, shield walls, boost in deband
Trap: boosted damage in traps, turrets, lures(in a catnip sort of way?)

Just my thoughts so please don't get mad at me!

[Blueblur]

The only person I've agreed with 100% was with Kent (his post was on page 2). I'm really just hoping that the game resemble PSO more than PSU in terms of class restrictions, weapon restrictions, etc. It certainly made PSO's classes unique and the game kept it simple yet filled with depth. Regardless, a good deal of balance is needed to make any kind of class system really appealing. I very much hope that Sega is pouring everything they've got into this one.