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Evegodenraven
Feb 3, 2011, 04:18 PM
anyways..... i'v been thinking about what made PSOBB fun, which was a lot of things in combination that made it fun. But then i got to thinking of what those differences really are from PSOBB and PSU/PSP1/PSP2(idk about PSZ).

and it hit me!
The way the maps were made!

the one main thing that made PSOBB the best for was was that maps were not made for a player to just be able to gun right thru it in seconds.... i mean you guys can remember how much fun with was on PSO/BB where all the maps were made in such a way that would confuse the living hell out of you. i remember playing Dessert for Episode 4 and the 2nd map for the game was where everyone was always confused and lost but i loved it because even tho i would get lost sometimes on it i tired to remember how the map was so that i don't get lost =)


in PSu/PSp2/etc the maps are made where you just go down the direction the game is leading you... and all you have to find the where the path to the next area was....

i really wish that SEGA makes PSO2 maps the old Puzzle type maps i loved over the map styles that PSU/etc has....

Jinketsu
Feb 4, 2011, 09:29 AM
PSO maps were always the same map, it was the route through the maps that was randomized each time you entered. And I agree, I would like to see this return.

Though I seem to remember PSU doing the same thing. I didn't play it online much longer after its release on PC.

Aerilas
Feb 4, 2011, 09:55 AM
PSO maps were always the same map, it was the route through the maps that was randomized each time you entered. And I agree, I would like to see this return.

Though I seem to remember PSU doing the same thing. I didn't play it online much longer after its release on PC.

This is true, but it's more than that.

I haven't really played psu thoroughly so I don't know if the following was implemented there too but;

In pso in many quests/challenges there were always an amount of connected switches (right and wrong ones which might trigger a trap) and special enemies/rooms you had to beat to unlock a door (close or far away from this enemy/room).
Not only that, but there were rooms that could have hidden warps, or warps that'd lead you to a messed up place where you're suddenly surrounded.
It wasn't always straightforward which was quite fun.

Kent
Feb 5, 2011, 01:06 PM
PSO maps were always the same map, it was the route through the maps that was randomized each time you entered. And I agree, I would like to see this return.

Though I seem to remember PSU doing the same thing. I didn't play it online much longer after its release on PC.
Actually, that was only true for the Forest. Forest 1 and 2 had the same physical topography every time they were loaded up, however the presence of switches and locked doors would alter the path you had to take between the areas' various rooms. In these areas, it was these elements that had several different layouts.

The combination of the same topography, but variable elements that changed your path of progression worked for this area, since they were always essentially the same "place" in the in-game world: The approach to the Central Dome.

However, starting with the first area of the Caves (and all throughout Episode I, save for boss arenas), this was no longer the case. These areas employed a technique similar to "chunking" in other disciplines, where individual rooms were made, and the base area was constructed by assmbling these rooms together, instead of using a static topography. After this, progression elements (doors, switches, teleporters, etc.) are added in order to give a specific progression path unique to each version of a map layout.

The areas still only have a very specific number of variations each, so this isn't employed to randomly-assemble areas in the game (though it certainly could be, just this particular game was not designed to do so), but this is still a method used to sort of "fool" the players into thinking they're going into familiar territory, since individual rooms look the same, while still providing varying experiences between layouts. Though not randomly-generated (just randomly-chosen layouts), this means that the game isn't purely some being of chaos - because of this, it allows the level designers to design much higher-quality gameplay experiences than a random-generation system would actually allow. Though, that's not to say that a future random-generation system couldn't have some very interesting advances in this category, just that the randomly-chosen layouts of the time led to a much higher-quality experience, overall.

In Phantasy Star Universe though, a slightly different variation of this technique is used. On the whole, areas are pretty much static, and generally a lot smaller, though there are a lot more actual areas in the game. However, it still very much discouraged much exploration, simply by not providing much in the way of opportunities to do so, which is probably the biggest detrimental factor in the game's level design.

Jinketsu
Feb 8, 2011, 10:10 AM
I'm pretty sure, having paid attention to the maps myself throughout several years of playing on the gamecube, that as you progressed in available areas the map was still the same. You were cut off from certain sections of the map, as every playthrough didn't give you every room to explore, just a certain amount of a certain section(s) depending on warps and such. The reason it was more apparent in Forest areas was because there weren't really many areas to explore in the first place, giving you access to every section each playthrough.

Much like Nyzul Isle in FFXI, which I'm sure you can agree with.

redroses
Feb 8, 2011, 11:20 AM
The maps in PSO seem to give the feeling of exploring, because it is actually one big map with gates to seperate areas.

Now in PSU you have blocks with a very linear way you have to go. The blocks themselve never change. At the start of a game you might get a different block to start in but block x will always be block x, it doesn't matter if you get as the first or last block, meaning it will never slightly change, not even which doors open or not.

Also I find it boring that blocks very often do not change in PSU. You just go from one linear looking area to the exact same looking area.

I really miss the changes from Forest 1 to 2. Or cave 1 to 2 to 3. That made the feeling of exploriation even greater, because it felt like you were actually going further into the area.

Anyway with this whole block system etc. I find that the maps in PSU get boring much faster. And I just don't get that feeling I had when playing PSO maps.

Zer078
Feb 8, 2011, 01:42 PM
The maps in PSO seem to give the feeling of exploring, because it is actually one big map with gates to seperate areas.

Now in PSU you have blocks with a very linear way you have to go. The blocks themselve never change. At the start of a game you might get a different block to start in but block x will always be block x, it doesn't matter if you get as the first or last block, meaning it will never slightly change, not even which doors open or not.

Also I find it boring that blocks very often do not change in PSU. You just go from one linear looking area to the exact same looking area.

I really miss the changes from Forest 1 to 2. Or cave 1 to 2 to 3. That made the feeling of exploriation even greater, because it felt like you were actually going further into the area.

Anyway with this whole block system etc. I find that the maps in PSU get boring much faster. And I just don't get that feeling I had when playing PSO maps.
who are you kidding PSO ep 1 was fixed randomizer using the same blocks and linking them together.

See Everquest 1 for exploring

redroses
Feb 9, 2011, 06:49 AM
who are you kidding PSO ep 1 was fixed randomizer using the same blocks and linking them together.

See Everquest 1 for exploring

:l
I was comparing PSO maps to PSU maps.
Not PSO maps to giant open world game maps.

Kent
Feb 9, 2011, 08:44 PM
I'm pretty sure, having paid attention to the maps myself throughout several years of playing on the gamecube, that as you progressed in available areas the map was still the same. You were cut off from certain sections of the map, as every playthrough didn't give you every room to explore, just a certain amount of a certain section(s) depending on warps and such. The reason it was more apparent in Forest areas was because there weren't really many areas to explore in the first place, giving you access to every section each playthrough.

Much like Nyzul Isle in FFXI, which I'm sure you can agree with.
It is actually not the case though - rooms that are not accessible in a given map variant simply don't exist in that map variant. The game uses prefabricated individual rooms and hallways and pieces them together based on which map variant is randomly chosen when you create a game.

We can deduct this from the maps provided on this very website.

Caves 1 has three physical room layouts: Layout 1, Layout 2 and Layout 3. Each of them has two variations for the setup of their various gameplay elements (switches, doors, teleporters, etc.), but you might notice that certain iconic rooms, such as the large room filled with lava with just an artificial platform in it (which has a circular area which you can't cross in the center) is commented to rooms that are physically different between map layouts. This prevents said map layouts from being connected to each other, unless all of these "landmark" rooms have duplicates somewhere.

That aside: It's a waste of memory to load up all of these different layouts at once, if you're only going to let the player(s) venture through a given one of them at a time.

By constructing individual rooms and hallways in a modular fashion, this allows the level designers to work more freely, because all they really have to do is set up a script file that shows which room type is placed where, and what's in it. There's more than enough evidence that this is the case: For example, every quest uses a customized map layout for any given relevant area, both in physical differences (like the aforementioned different room structures) and gameplay element differences. Additionally, back on the Dreamcast, we had offline quests that you could download from the server - quests that indeed had their own custom map layouts, yet were small enough in size to comprise a relatively small file on a VMU.

If that's not enough for you, if you were to load up the original Dreamcast game with a cheat device of some sort, there are codes you can use to do things like walk through walls - which will easily give you all of the evidence you need to state that any given map layout does, in fact, exist within a vacuum: If you venture outside the walls of a map, you'll notice that nothing exists outside of the current playable area.

zombiemoshpit84
Feb 10, 2011, 04:46 PM
Actually, that was only true for the Forest. Forest 1 and 2 had the same physical topography every time they were loaded up, however the presence of switches and locked doors would alter the path you had to take between the areas' various rooms. In these areas, it was these elements that had several different layouts.

The combination of the same topography, but variable elements that changed your path of progression worked for this area, since they were always essentially the same "place" in the in-game world: The approach to the Central Dome.

However, starting with the first area of the Caves (and all throughout Episode I, save for boss arenas), this was no longer the case. These areas employed a technique similar to "chunking" in other disciplines, where individual rooms were made, and the base area was constructed by assmbling these rooms together, instead of using a static topography. After this, progression elements (doors, switches, teleporters, etc.) are added in order to give a specific progression path unique to each version of a map layout.

The areas still only have a very specific number of variations each, so this isn't employed to randomly-assemble areas in the game (though it certainly could be, just this particular game was not designed to do so), but this is still a method used to sort of "fool" the players into thinking they're going into familiar territory, since individual rooms look the same, while still providing varying experiences between layouts. Though not randomly-generated (just randomly-chosen layouts), this means that the game isn't purely some being of chaos - because of this, it allows the level designers to design much higher-quality gameplay experiences than a random-generation system would actually allow. Though, that's not to say that a future random-generation system couldn't have some very interesting advances in this category, just that the randomly-chosen layouts of the time led to a much higher-quality experience, overall.

In Phantasy Star Universe though, a slightly different variation of this technique is used. On the whole, areas are pretty much static, and generally a lot smaller, though there are a lot more actual areas in the game. However, it still very much discouraged much exploration, simply by not providing much in the way of opportunities to do so, which is probably the biggest detrimental factor in the game's level design.
this. you nailed it Kent. this is exactly what i would have said but in a more intelligent manner then i am capable of.

Jinketsu
Feb 11, 2011, 09:43 AM
I see, I was under my own impression which was completely off base.

Walk-through-walls solves everything.