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Raveno
Apr 4, 2011, 08:33 PM
man i wish pso2 would have a 'craft' system like eve online, as in everyitem is either dropped or made by players....no NPC vendors (tho have NPCs sell items that players made)

everything from monomates to scapedolls, room decorations (if it is in pso2)

thoughts?

Niered
Apr 4, 2011, 08:41 PM
Ehhh...maybe. Dunno, it's not really the sort of thing that fits, and while PSU did try a crating system, it sucked something hard. This isn't to say that I wouldn't want to see a crafting system in PSO2, though I would say that the simple drop system of a lootfest RPG worked much better than the bullshit that was PSU.

Also, EVE is kind of a weird game to comapre to-ZZZZZZZzzzzzz........

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 4, 2011, 08:45 PM
Yuck. No.

Get rid of crafting entirely. Stick to exchange missions for turning materials into weapons.

Having to buy small things like monomates and scape dolls from players instead of NPCs is a terrible idea.

Randomness
Apr 4, 2011, 09:08 PM
No thanks. PSO is about loot, loot, LOOT.

If I want crafting, there's plenty of options for that.

One of the best things about PSO (and, hell, even PSU) is that advancing is 100% based on hacking monsters into tiny bits.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 4, 2011, 09:15 PM
Yeah. Honestly, I have always felt that that the very Meseta-driven player-based economy was one of the worst changes made in PSU.

I would very greatly prefer an economy like that of PSO, where Meseta was essentially worthless, and you bartered for rares instead of just buying them.

Dongra
Apr 4, 2011, 09:21 PM
I thought the economy change was one of the few things PSU did right, or at least would have had it not gotten buttplowed by cheaters right off the bat.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 4, 2011, 09:44 PM
Maybe it is just me, but I felt that being able to grind White Beast to get enough Meseta to purchase anything really cheapened the entire experience, and was a major contributing factor to why people would only run one or two missions. The terrible drop charts is the other half of that equation.


I really prefer hunting rares to grinding for Meseta. Can't find the weapon you want? Hunt something equivalently rare and then look for someone willing to trade. Much more rewarding than buying it with Meseta, in my eyes.

Dongra
Apr 4, 2011, 09:53 PM
Though I agree with you that hunting is by far a more enriching and rewarding experience, I still think that there should be an economy driven by some sort of currency. PSO's currency was Photon Drops which were used to purchase rare items but normally wouldn't get extremely rare items on their own. Items in PSU were never really that rare or hard to get so it's really hard to compare the drops from it with PSO's ridiculous drops. I still feel like some useful sort of rare items should fully be within the grasp of casual players should they grind up enough cash, while the super rare items would mainly trade for other items of value with cash as a sweetener. I think I'm having trouble explaining the way this felt on PSO, meh. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 4, 2011, 10:22 PM
No, I understand what you are saying, and I don't really have any issue with buying lower-end rares for Meseta, just the really high-end stuff.

Anyway, I think part of my problem with this comes from the fact that, unless you were going to do time attack runs, there was really very, VERY little benefit in using extremely rare/expensive weaponry compared to lower-end, much more easily obtained weapons. This is also the reason that I cannot help but laugh when I see people freaking out over how many billions of Meseta they have to spend on a 10/10 Spread Needle, when really a 0/10 Shigga Baret works just as well.

Tetsaru
Apr 4, 2011, 11:27 PM
I would prefer that rare items in PSO2 drop already made with random variances in stats, like in PSO. However, I'm not opposed to having a crafting system, as long it isn't as frustrating as PSU's was. Here's how I'd do it:

- Instead of having to obtain a board for every time you want to make something, you could find a recipe for each item ONCE, or possibly reverse-engineer an item (at the cost of destroying the item) to break it down into the components that make it, with varying success depending on some sort of skill level. Essentially, if you have a recipe for an item, or reverse-engineered it to the point where you know what it is composed of, you can make as many copies of it as you want, provided you have the materials. Likewise, if you're in need of synthing materials, you can break down old items you don't need anymore.

- The success rate at which you synth items would not be based on buying tons of items and feeding a PM like in PSU; instead, you would simply attempt a synthesis, and regardless of whether or not it worked, you would gain proficiency with synthing that particular kind of item. So, the more sabers you synth, the better you get at making them, etc. Start out by synthing low-rank weapons, and you can eventually get to where you can make your own S ranks... provided you have the necessary materials and recipes!

- Depending on your synthesis proficiency levels, different things will happen when making particular items. For example, if your synthesis proficiency with sabers is say, Lv. 10, you would be able to make most low-rank sabers with no chance of failure. However, attempting to make a mid-rank saber would probably give you around a 50-50 chance of success, and an S rank saber would be nearly impossible. Also, the item might come out with positive or negative attributes, or turn into something completely different.

- Certain modifications to a weapon could be made to a weapon during or after synthesis. You could dump any amount of elemental photons into it to influence its elemental %, or perhaps its special ability, for example. Grinding could also be done in a similar manner.

Other than that, meseta REALLY needs to hold some sort of value, instead of being flooded into the market. In my opinion, you should NEVER see anyone with stacks of money unless they've played the game for years and sold off a ton of items.... or they're hacking. =x

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 4, 2011, 11:48 PM
My problem with such a system is that it is just too complicated. All you have done is replaced the boredom of raising a PM with the boredom of leveling crafting proficiency.

Here's what I'd do:

Weapon drop made, but sometimes they drop broken. You can still use them, they just have slightly lower stats/don't have a special/you can't grind them/whatever. To fix them, you find some materials (a small number of materials, like 2-3 maximum) and take it to an NPC, then you have a fixed weapon.

There, that way you can have the "fun" of collecting materials to improve weapons, but without the extremely disheartening feeling you get when every drop is some worthless material or a board you can't even use.

Also, have an extremely deep system for customizing weapons.

KodiaX987
Apr 5, 2011, 12:02 AM
How about a module system?

You can place a higher-capacity magazine, a scope, a long barrel, or what have you. Either one has limited placement slots on a weapon (hence doing trade-offs for a hardpoint) or a set of calibration points which are used up when equipping a module, and restored when unequipped.

Kent
Apr 5, 2011, 01:59 AM
Essentially, socketed equipment - just instead of gems and whatnot, it's components that physically alter the weapon at hand. Scopes, stabliizers and whatnot exclusive to guns, with things like blade extenders and attack speed altering items (weights for slower, more powerful attacks, micro anti-gravity devices for the inverse, or something like that) exclusive to melee weapons, and then a host of various other things that can be attached to any weapons - such as tradeoffs between critcal hit frequency and magnitude, or the ability to ignore some enemy defense in exchange for some other attribute.

Things like that could go a long way toward giving players customization for their equipment, while still side-stepping the issue of a heavily crafting-based economy being diametrically-opposed to the loot-hunting nature of PSO. In fact, a lot of design considerations of massively-multiplayer games won't necessarily fit in well with a non-MMO like PSO (and hopefully its sequel), what with the whole "completely different styles of games" thing and all.

Raveno
Apr 5, 2011, 02:52 AM
after posting, i realized that this is PSO 2 not PSU2.....in that PSO was different in its ways inwhich made it what it was

but i figure if someone could make extremely small profits off making such small items or running missions over and over and collecting them it could give the "little man" (lower levels) something else to do that makes them feel like they can still cause an impact

Kaziel
Apr 5, 2011, 11:21 AM
Crafting is stupid.

Kill monsters and loot corpses for l33t gear.

There will probably be crafting anyways, because every MMO has it. :-?

:edit: I like Ffuzzy's idea of the "broken" weapons though.

landman
Apr 5, 2011, 01:55 PM
PSU economy is something players still spend hundreds of hours in, EVE economy and market is too complex for any other game, but Phantasy Star could enrich from it in many many ways.

There is really no difference buying from a player or an NPC, if there are enough players and the shop system is good enough (like, doh, EVE)

Akaimizu
Apr 5, 2011, 02:13 PM
The shop system makes a big difference in how it works well.
For instance. The auction house system in Final Fantasy XI was actually pretty good. If you liked wheeling and dealing, it was actually a well-done setup in which it was easy to peruse all that is selling of your type. PSU used part of the idea (where it is easy to look up and sort on what you look for to see who's selling for what), but the rest of the auction-house system wasn't used.

Alas, when Square-Enix tried to change all that for FFXIV, it was a trainwreck. A case where they tried to fix one of the main points of FFIX that was not broken.

Arkios
Apr 5, 2011, 07:55 PM
I think an auction house would be pretty nice, or some sort of player shop. Being able to sell off the extra rares you have for Photon Drops or whatever else is used for currency would be really nice.

I love the idea of slots for weapons that increase speed, range, accuracy, etc. I think that would be a really cool system. I also like the idea of finding a "broken" weapon and then having to repair it.

I think items like TJS, that you have to unseal, would go a long way in making rare hunts more exciting. If the game stays true to it's roots, it's going to be a grindfest from start to finish. Which is totally fine as long as it doesn't feel like a grind. I think adding some of these features would help a lot.

Dragwind
Apr 5, 2011, 11:10 PM
I feel that player shops: Good.

However, crafting sysem? Eh. We all saw how that originally went with PSU. Awful. They did alleviate it a bit... but overall, I think it should stick to the loot/exchange system with only minimal "crafting" involved.

Randomness
Apr 5, 2011, 11:34 PM
I feel that player shops: Good.

However, crafting sysem? Eh. We all saw how that originally went with PSU. Awful. They did alleviate it a bit... but overall, I think it should stick to the loot/exchange system with only minimal "crafting" involved.

Crafting on upgrade stuff, with rares being loots?

That would let you do things similar to percents from PSU on crafted upgrades, but since they'd only be enhancing a weapon, chance wouldn't be so make or break - If you get bad numbers on the upgrade module, its not a huge deal - its not as good as you'd like, but its still usable. And, it doesn't ruin the weapon or anything like getting 10% on PSU basically did, since you can keep trying to get a few good upgrades and then use them. (This system would probably need rarity caps on upgrades or something, or they'll be so trivial that there's no point in having random values at all)

I like Kodia and Kent's suggestion. I was hoping for something like that in PSP2, but they "fixed" crafting in that anyways.

I do want there to be some form of currency that players can use, it makes trading easier, especially at the lower end. At the high end, it's still going to be item for item, since these are going to be in very limited supply and a predictable, consistent value is unlikely. The biggest problem in PSU's economy was the meseta exploit early on. SEGA didn't catch it quick enough, and it completely destroyed the economy for months. (Eventually, missions paid out enough meseta at higher levels, combined with events, etc. and people leaving to somewhat counter it, but even so it started item for item far earlier and at far lower rarities than it should have been)

In short, I love the idea of modular upgrades, and we need meseta to have value because money facilitates economic activity.

RemiusTA
Apr 6, 2011, 10:51 AM
Yuck. No.

Get rid of crafting entirely. Stick to exchange missions for turning materials into weapons.

Having to buy small things like monomates and scape dolls from players instead of NPCs is a terrible idea.

Agreed. Crafting systems are just a lame excuse to make you grind longer in MMOs. There was absolutely nothing wrong with completed weapons dropping in PSO.

And while you're at it, PLEASE remove that shitty ass "% element" feature that PSU introduced. It basically takes whatever rare you've got and gives it a secondary value that's completely random. (For instance, a 5% Agito Replica vs. a 25% Agito Replica vs a 50%.) It really hinders you from ever really feeling like you found something valuable, because you can almost always find something better of the same item. Same with PSU's Grinding system. It was just a lame way to stretch out a few rares and give poor incentive to keep looking for the same item...instead of just creating new ones.

You should always be going up, not down or fluctuating. PSU's drops annoyed the fuck out of me, with all the random % chances on absolutely EVERYTHING in the damn game. (% chance of board to drop, % chance of material to drop, % chance to synth item, % chance for elemental affinity, % chance for grinder success. All on one weapon. What the hell. The chance of you getting 100% out of your weapon was absolutely abysmal.)

Akaimizu
Apr 6, 2011, 12:27 PM
Makes sense. If I were to craft something, I'd rather the crafted stuff have fixed values. Even Wow did that. Getting the materials was often the thing. Still, it kept the game to what people enjoyed the most. The trick was only in getting the loot, not thrown in all kinds of complications *after* you get the loot.

Vashyron
Apr 6, 2011, 12:30 PM
I think they realized synthesizing was just bad, it was removed in PSP2 and newer rares in JP PSU come out already made.

landman
Apr 6, 2011, 12:30 PM
% were also in PSO, but only 4 different % instead of 6 kids of them, but you had the chance of improving that % with rare items, in late versions of the game. You can also do that on PSU JP with Guardian's cash. And don't tell me % were not important to some players in PSO, because the most common question after taking a rare was about the %.


I think they realized synthesizing was just bad, it was removed in PSP2 and newer rares in JP PSU come out already made.
And the chance of getting a good percent is as slim as crafting the weapon.

Akaimizu
Apr 6, 2011, 12:35 PM
To a degree. I think it feels to the player that there's a double chance there. With the chance of getting a good percent from made weapons, you had no chance of losing everything and good (possibly hard to find) materials in the process. In PSU, it felt like two things. One to even actually have a product from your spoils, and then to what percentage you get it with.

In all actuality, people like this better if everything was decided from the loot phase. At least you didn't collect all kinds of rare junk to end up with nothing.

Vashyron
Apr 6, 2011, 01:16 PM
To a degree. I think it feels to the player that there's a double chance there. With the chance of getting a good percent from made weapons, you had no chance of losing everything and good (possibly hard to find) materials in the process. In PSU, it felt like two things. One to even actually have a product from your spoils, and then to what percentage you get it with.

In all actuality, people like this better if everything was decided from the loot phase. At least you didn't collect all kinds of rare junk to end up with nothing.


This really was one of the annoying aspects of it, PSU had you collect a bunch of junk over time and then having a chance of either it failing to synth, or coming with a abysmal %, while PSO you found a rare, then right away (if you wanted) you could see what you got and it didn't bring up your hopes over many hurdles.

Niered
Apr 6, 2011, 05:38 PM
Why can't they just make crafting a separate thing from weapons?

Err, let me explain. I think that rare drops are an integral part of dungeon crawlers, duh. So leave those in. BUT, expand on the grinding system of PSO and PSU. Basically just make it so that the player can take an already good weapon, and modify it to add elemental damage percentages, small stat increases, or other abilities.

And most importantly, DONT make the system PENALIZE THE PLAYER for taking A CHANCE. That is the worst fucking kind of grinding, the kind where you don't even KNOW if you're going to end up with a finished, fully functional piece of equipment. Instead, maybe randomize the effectiveness of the buff? For instance, say that you can add 10 points of ATK to a weapon by modifying it. Well, when you modify it, you arent gaurunteed all 10 points, its randomized. So you get done crafting, using the resources and time to do so, and it comes back and has added 3 points to ATK. You can still get the full bonus, assuming you just get the necessary materials again, but THERE IS NO PERMANENT PENALTY to the weapon.

None of this fucking crafting 20 goddamn weapons just to see 1-2 survive a whole fucking +10 grind. And no, PSU AOI's system was not a cure for that problem. The max grind level being permanently lowered was not as bad a penalty, but still a fucking stupid penalty.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 6, 2011, 06:05 PM
And don't tell me % were not important to some players in PSO, because the most common question after taking a rare was about the %.There is a very big difference, though. In PSO, no one in their right mind would rather use a 50/0/0/50/50 DB Saber than an Excalibur with 0s across the board, whereas in PSU, a 50% Apocalypse is far, far superior to a 0% Lavis Cannon.

None of this fucking crafting 20 goddamn weapons just to see 1-2 survive a whole fucking +10 grind. And no, PSU AOI's system was not a cure for that problem. The max grind level being permanently lowered was not as bad a penalty, but still a fucking stupid penalty.The saving grace was that, for 95% of all weapons, grinding was completely worthless and a waste of time (except for bragging rights and people who time attack a lot).

KodiaX987
Apr 6, 2011, 06:06 PM
That, or at least making it so a failure does not result in losing the weapon.

I don't mind craft failures so long as I do not get penalized for taking a risk. And in fact, I do not mind crafting that much, although it's hard to make a storyline excuse for crafting in the first place. That sort of stuff has a good place in post-apocalyptic worlds where you can explain that resources are scarce. But in PSO? Shop's right around the corner. There's little reason to disassemble or otherwise "make" a whole new weapon.

Randomness
Apr 6, 2011, 07:18 PM
That, or at least making it so a failure does not result in losing the weapon.

I don't mind craft failures so long as I do not get penalized for taking a risk. And in fact, I do not mind crafting that much, although it's hard to make a storyline excuse for crafting in the first place. That sort of stuff has a good place in post-apocalyptic worlds where you can explain that resources are scarce. But in PSO? Shop's right around the corner. There's little reason to disassemble or otherwise "make" a whole new weapon.

Mods make more sense as crafted items, that you then modify weapons with.

And of course, crafting makes sense in the generic fantasy setting as well. Just not in PSO-land... mostly. I mean, the enemy weapons from PSO were explained very well.

Checkmate
Apr 7, 2011, 02:16 AM
Eve Online's market is actually very stable and easy to use and infinite availability. Basic items, i.e. -mates and -fluids, are in ready supply by the vendor no matter where you go. It's only the more advanced things that differ in availability. Crafting/building in MMOs is big for a reason. Many people out there value being a ready supplier of goods with a fat wallet rather than being mindlessly beating things over the head with a mallet for XX hours a week.

Remember that it's already been stated that PSO2 will have nothing to do with that entity known as PSU. In regards to PSO, I cannot recall how many toons I had with maxed Meseta, both in bank and on me personally. Other than buying items for leveling mags, which MANY PEOPLE used as an occupation for trade, Meseta had little to no use. In a sense, you could see that as it's own version of a craft or profession. Tailoring specific items to meet the needs and demands of the public and supplying them sounds like a craft to me, however unintentional by SoA.

I'm sure there will be a Trade System in place in PSO2. Also a Mail system, not just sending cute little 120 char letters like PSO (lol). A Market/Auction House/Broker system as a central hub of items up for sale would be nice, rather than relying on various, wide spread community trade forums.

Maybe if this were like Star Trek, we wouldn't have a need for senseless things like currency. Everything would be free. ;)

EDIT: I remember what i used my Meseta for now... going to the Identifier NPC and hitting Yes/No for 20 minutes trying to get that extra 5-10% on a ??? Sword +3 and maybe a higher tier ability like 12% exp leech or reduce HP to 1/4. Good thing I saved up.

RemiusTA
Apr 7, 2011, 03:52 AM
bring back dropped grinders, give each weapon a grind limit. (10, 20, 50, 63, whatever.)

Problem solved. I can't think of any reason for Sega thinking PSU's grinding was a good idea other than water-flooding the gameplay time and laziness. At least, i hope they did it with underlying reasons. I really hope they didn't think it was a neat idea.

KodiaX987
Apr 7, 2011, 05:32 PM
EDIT: I remember what i used my Meseta for now... going to the Identifier NPC and hitting Yes/No for 20 minutes trying to get that extra 5-10% on a ??? Sword +3 and maybe a higher tier ability like 12% exp leech or reduce HP to 1/4. Good thing I saved up.

Or anything that's multi hit and has a Charge attribute.

Those weapons were so damn FUN to use! :D

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 7, 2011, 05:36 PM
If by "fun" you mean "completely game breaking," then yeah, I totally agree.

Nitro Vordex
Apr 7, 2011, 07:44 PM
Charge was broken. Beserk + Resta was all I need.

Juza
Apr 7, 2011, 09:54 PM
Eve Online's market is actually very stable and easy to use and infinite availability...

EVE Online's market is rarely stable, horrible to use, and availability is determined solely by players. I like charging 0.0'ers ridiculous prices for skillbooks as much as the next capsuleer, but I don't want to see PSO2 degenerate into, "Psst, hey buddy, I got yer trimate - 20,000,000 meseta!" Nitpicking aside, I see what you're actually getting at though. ;)

Thankfully, it's 2011. Everyone(tm) else realizes that player trade and crafting are standard features for any game attempting to call itself an MMO. Given what went into PSU, I'd like to think we can actually trust Sega to not miss yet another boat with regard to these things.

To be honest, I don't care much about specifics. Shops were fine; search seemed like it was forever broken, but other than that - Sega's proven they've figured out viable trade. As long as I don't have to stand in a lobby for eight hours shouting, "HURR NE1 WAN 2 BUY LAVIS CANNON HURR", I'll be happy.

Synthesis seemed like it was hacked together quickly over a bowl of noodles one evening, but it was far, far, far, far, far better than the asininity of only being able to get equipment through dumb luck.

Grinding's my main beef. Grinding was stupid. If they bother with it, it had better either be original PSO-style or PSP2-style. None of this, "Oh, look, after farming the same mission for six months, you got your shiny happy drop. And... Oops, it broke, despite your 99% chance of success. Sucks for you!" Pah. :p

Checkmate
Apr 7, 2011, 10:34 PM
EVE Online's market is rarely stable, horrible to use, and availability is determined solely by players. I like charging 0.0'ers ridiculous prices for skillbooks as much as the next capsuleer, but I don't want to see PSO2 degenerate into, "Psst, hey buddy, I got yer trimate - 20,000,000 meseta!" Nitpicking aside, I see what you're actually getting at though. ;)


0.0 Space is serious business lol. Supply and demand. The suppliers are king. And rich. :)

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 7, 2011, 10:41 PM
Synthesis seemed like it was hacked together quickly over a bowl of noodles one evening, but it was far, far, far, far, far better than the asininity of only being able to get equipment through dumb luck.Ah yes, only being able to get equipment by first finding a board through dumb luck, then finding the materials through dumb luck, then waiting hours for the synthesis to maybe succeed through dumb luck, and finally hoping that the result has a good enough percent that it is any better than an NPC-bought weapon through dumb luck, that is clearly far, far, far, far, far better than hunting for weapons that you can use on the spot.


You are a crazy person.



I want to play a game, not a stock market simulator. I don't give a shit about the economy. If I want to do some wheeling and dealing, I'll go open an E-Trade account.

Checkmate
Apr 7, 2011, 11:01 PM
Ah yes, only being able to get equipment by first finding a board through dumb luck, then finding the materials through dumb luck, then waiting hours for the synthesis to maybe succeed through dumb luck, and finally hoping that the result has a good enough percent that it is any better than an NPC-bought weapon through dumb luck, that is clearly far, far, far, far, far better than hunting for weapons that you can use on the spot.



Random Number Generators are bad. :(

Dongra
Apr 7, 2011, 11:17 PM
And with the synthesis process you have to rely on far more RNG rolls.

Juza
Apr 7, 2011, 11:33 PM
Ah yes, only being able to get equipment by first finding a board through dumb luck, then finding the materials through dumb luck ... and finally hoping that the result has a good enough percent that it is any better than an NPC-bought weapon through dumb luck

I hear they had these things called 'shops' in PSU, where you could buy all sorts of boards at. Indeed, as time went on post-AOTI, pretty much everything but unnecessary* S-ranks were to be had at shops, not to mention their materials.

That was totally worse than wondering if you'd ever find a decent weapon due to the ever-terrible drop rates of quality gear. Indeed, it was atrocious that one could pump out a set of high-percentage A-ranks and then go to town. Simply horrifying, even!

(* Edit: Armor was a sad exception. S-rank armor was always useful, whereas high percentage/grind A-ranks were quite viable, if not superior to, non/low grind S-ranks.)


, then waiting hours for the synthesis to maybe succeed through dumb luck

Partial problem. It would've been far better if boards and enemy drops were released at the same time. This would've pleased people who expect basic features in their games, while at the same time pleasing those basement dwellers who seemingly had no reason to ever step away for the pitiful few hours that synthesis took.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 7, 2011, 11:52 PM
You seem to have largely missed my point. Regardless of whether you personally have to find the board and the materials versus buying them from a shop, the point remains that someone still has to do it.

PSO's system was simple: kill enemies to get a weapon you can use immediately.

PSU's system was convoluted: kill enemies to get worthless shit that you'll never need and pray to God that one of the five boxes at the end of the mission drops a board for a weapon so you can then hunt a dozen assorted materials and then stick it in your PM and cross your fingers hoping that the result won't be worthless compared to weapons you can buy from an NPC.

Maybe you enjoy the extra steps involved in PSU's system, but I found it to be nothing but shameless padding to serve as a timesink. SEGA even realized it was bullshit. Everything now drops made or comes from an exchange mission, with a good chance of having high percent.


I get your point that, in PSU, even if you are very unlucky with drops, you can still get good equipment by grinding forever and purchasing it with Meseta. Maybe that's fun for you, but it's tedious and boring to me. I get a sense of excitement and accomplishment from getting a really rare drop, even if it is dictated by a RNG. I get no such feeling from buying equipment with Meseta.

Let me explain that a bit more. For me, the point of these games (apart from goofing around with friends) has been hunting rares. The point isn't in actually having the rares, it is in looking for them.

Which is more fun? Going to a carnival and winning a prize from some stupid game, or going to the store and buying the same prize?



This would've pleased people who expect basic features in their games, while at the same time pleasing those basement dwellers who seemingly had no reason to ever step away for the pitiful few hours that synthesis took.Really? That's what you're going with? A "no life" joke? Come ON. You've completely missed the point.

MadDogg
Apr 8, 2011, 08:35 AM
I feel that player shops: Good.

However, crafting sysem? Eh. We all saw how that originally went with PSU. Awful. They did alleviate it a bit... but overall, I think it should stick to the loot/exchange system with only minimal "crafting" involved.

I agree with this. Keep it simple, since the phantasy star online series is a smaller online rpg than something massive like a mmo. I wouldn't want them to change that either, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

KodiaX987
Apr 8, 2011, 10:32 AM
Ping!

Item borrowing. Like in GT5.

A player makes one or several possessions of his available to other players in the game. Those items cannot be sold or dropped. Other persons can take and wield the weapon, and it's returned to the owner if the wielder leaves the game.

Juza
Apr 8, 2011, 04:49 PM
PSO's system was simple: kill enemies to get a weapon you can use immediately.

PSU's system was convoluted: kill enemies to get worthless shit that you'll never need and pray to God that one of the five boxes at the end of the mission drops a board for a weapon so you can then hunt a dozen assorted materials and then stick it in your PM and cross your fingers hoping that the result won't be worthless compared to weapons you can buy from an NPC.

Oh, I'm in total agreement. Varistas and DB Sabers and the rest of the trash weapons were always in high demand - they were always useful. And certainly, they always had better stats than vendor-supplied weapons. Always.

Wait, what was that about 'kill enemies to get worthless shit'? Rose colored glasses, to be sure - the vast majority of drops in PSO, including boss boxes, were in fact, 'worthless shit' as you put it so eloquently.


Maybe you enjoy the extra steps involved in PSU's system, but I found it to be nothing but shameless padding to serve as a timesink.

Hold that thought.


I get your point that, in PSU, even if you are very unlucky with drops, you can still get good equipment by grinding forever and purchasing it with Meseta.

Grinding 'forever'? You didn't need 10/10 to be effective. I'm of the opinion that PSU's grinding system was crap, mind you. But be that as it may, getting high grinds on A-ranks wasn't that much of an ordeal, and fairly tear-free, because hey - A-ranks. S-ranks were another matter, but are we talking e-genitalia-enhancing equipment, or 'good' equipment? The two are not the same, by any means.


Maybe that's fun for you, but it's tedious and boring to me. I get a sense of excitement and accomplishment from getting a really rare drop, even if it is dictated by a RNG. I get no such feeling from buying equipment with Meseta.

Let me explain that a bit more. For me, the point of these games (apart from goofing around with friends) has been hunting rares. The point isn't in actually having the rares, it is in looking for them.

Okay, bring that thought back. So, wait - your primary argument against crafting is, "Timesink!", and your support for that argument is, "I want a different timesink!"? I'm sure that makes sense on some level, but I'm just not seeing it.

My inability to comprehend your logic here aside, as I've already noted, I would've been happy to have seen PSU releasing items and boards at the same time. There was no reason not to - other than the strange thinking of Sega; but I don't recall ever saying PSU's crafting system was perfect.


Really? That's what you're going with? A "no life" joke? Come ON. You've completely missed the point.

I needed something equally lame to counter your 'crazy' quip; a no life joke suited admirably, I believe.

Ffuzzy-Logik
Apr 8, 2011, 05:30 PM
Oh, I'm in total agreement. Varistas and DB Sabers and the rest of the trash weapons were always in high demand - they were always useful. And certainly, they always had better stats than vendor-supplied weapons. Always.

Wait, what was that about 'kill enemies to get worthless shit'? Rose colored glasses, to be sure - the vast majority of drops in PSO, including boss boxes, were in fact, 'worthless shit' as you put it so eloquently.I'd like to refer you to PSOBB's team system, wherein you exchange shitty rares for points to upgrade your team.

That aside, my point still stands. In PSO, even the highest-end rares dropped from enemies. In PSU, anything that is even remotely decent drops from a box at the end of the mission (with atrocious rates, I'll add), not from an actual enemy.

Maybe that doesn't make a difference to you, but to me, it made killing enemies a lot more boring, since I know there was 0% chance of being surprised by a really rare drop out of nowhere. In PSO, there was always the possibility, no matter how slim, and that made things a little more exciting. I once saw a Heaven Punisher drop from a Grass Assassin (roughly 1/200k).

As another example, I ran Point of Disaster a lot, looking for a Daylight Scar, and then a Lame Detergent from the rare boss. Yes, the weapon I was looking for only dropped from the boss, but all the enemies along the way had the chance of dropping weapons ranging from moderately useful to really good in their own right. I hope the point I am trying to make here is clear.


Grinding 'forever'? You didn't need 10/10 to be effective. I'm of the opinion that PSU's grinding system was crap, mind you.I completely agree with you 100% about the grinding system of PSU being mostly pointless and ill conceived. However, I meant grinding in the playing the same missions lover and over again just for Meseta sense, not the actual system of upgrading weapons. I should have been more clear there.


Okay, bring that thought back. So, wait - your primary argument against crafting is, "Timesink!", and your support for that argument is, "I want a different timesink!"? I'm sure that makes sense on some level, but I'm just not seeing it.Yeah, I can see why this would look confusing. I'll admit that this is really just a matter of preference, but I do have some rationale behind it.

For me, it's a matter of behavioral science, of differing schedules of reinforcement. For me, buying weapons/materials (or even hunting multiple materials over time) feels like a fixed ratio schedule, where a reward is given after every n number of attempts. PSO's system, where decent equipment that I can use immediately could drop at any time, feels more like a variable ratio schedule, where the number of attempts needed to gain the reward is variable. I hope that makes sense.

To use another metaphor, it is like comparing working all day for a paycheck you know will be coming, versus going to a casino and playing slot machines, where you could be surprised at any moment with a large windfall. The former is obviously the more responsible choice in real life, but it is certainly less exciting than the latter.


My inability to comprehend your logic here aside, as I've already noted, I would've been happy to have seen PSU releasing items and boards at the same time. There was no reason not to - other than the strange thinking of Sega; but I don't recall ever saying PSU's crafting system was perfect.I didn't ever say you said that, did I?


I needed something equally lame to counter your 'crazy' quip; a no life joke suited admirably, I believe.Ehhh, I'll let it slide this time. We're already having a pretty heavy sarcasm-off here, anyway.

lantis-zagato
Apr 16, 2011, 01:42 PM
I prefer the PSO style due to everything Ffuzzy stated. I played PSO originally for the DC and imported the Japanese version of V.2 because I was so in love with the game. After playing for a few years I eventually quit because most of my friends disappeared. Then, I bought the special edition for gamecube that offered all the online missions in offline. I had NO ONE to play with and I never took it online. However, I played that version every day solo until PSU came out. There is something to be said about always having a chance at finding that super rare special weapon from a regular enemy. I found a legit orochiagito offline which has one of the worst drop rates in the game! Granted, I probably had well over 1500 hours among all of my characters but the game never got old because there was always that chance of finding something ridiculous!

I played PSU from day one until about 2 years ago. Around that time I stopped playing consistently and would hop on for a few days or so every couple of months just to wet my appetite for some phantasy star. You know why I quit completely about a year ago? I wasn't hunting rares, I was hunting garbage boards and materials that I was hoping to sell for a meager profit in order to afford that brand new shiny weapon that took 5 years to be released. I was grinding the same boring shit missions like one of the herd just so I could say I had a +10 not a +9. Pso was about discovery and anticipation....will today be the day I finally find "___" weapon? And when you do, believe me, it is so much sweeter than finding some generic board that requires a bunch of bogus materials that might not even synth to begin with.

Sorry for the rant. I just meant to throw out a few sentences and I got carried away :)

NoiseHERO
Apr 16, 2011, 09:31 PM
Shops, yes (Especially attached to your room again.)

Boards, no

Grinders, i dunno. But no to the whole "grinder base" rituals

Only thing that might bug me, would be looking for that specific element/effect for your weapon. Unless you can attach one later like in PSZ.