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SS_Death
Apr 28, 2011, 01:16 PM
So, thinking back to the good (or bad for some people) days of Episode 1 & 2, does anyone think that they might revive the racial traits?

For those that don't know, CASTs had health regeneration when standing still, the ability to drop mines, the ability to see mines and immunity to paralysis and poison.

Newmans had TP regeneration when standing still.

Humans had...well, the fact that they were human and were good and almost everything!

For better or for worse, I liked being able to stand still to heal, anyone else?

SephirothXer0
Apr 28, 2011, 01:19 PM
I think they should definitely come back, just give Humans their own buff instead of leaving them high and dry like every other game out there.

Maybe Humans should be able to wield a wider variety of weapons than the other races of the same class, since we're versatile. Like say a Cast or Newman hunter can only wield handguns and mech guns as ranged weapons, but a Human hunter can wield low level rifles as well.

Vashyron
Apr 28, 2011, 01:28 PM
I dislike Race specials, but if they are in Humans should get something special besides being "Human" to make up for it.

Pillan
Apr 28, 2011, 01:33 PM
Personally, I would prefer a lack of all racial differences. But I certainly see no real harm in returning to something similar to the old system, especially since the goal is nostalgia.

However, the trailer already shows PSP2-stylized PP regeneration, so every race will have a special/magic bar regeneration that goes from zero to full in 10 seconds, which already destroys the expected Newman advantage. So if you were to give them anything, it would be something else. And since everyone gets the Newman special, I would want to take away Cast HP regeneration.

And I certainly do not want to see a return of PSO/Z’s rules of “No FOcasts and no RAnewms,” so I do prefer a setting where Cast will have tech access when they switch to Force. But it certainly would be nice to see a hybridization system where Newman as Hunter/Ranger raised those classes’ tech cap at the cost of skills and Cast as Hunter/Force raised those classes’ bullet cap at the cost of techs. And human gets the default values.

eclipsXe
Apr 28, 2011, 01:37 PM
I think they should definitely come back, just give Humans their own buff instead of leaving them high and dry like every other game out there.

Maybe Humans should be able to wield a wider variety of weapons than the other races of the same class, since we're versatile. Like say a Cast or Newman hunter can only wield handguns and mech guns as ranged weapons, but a Human hunter can wield low level rifles as well.

I like this idea if any, and maybe even make our defense not be broken since I think humans supposedly were supposed to have the most defense, I don't remember if that was just PSP2 or PSO also

Pillan
Apr 28, 2011, 01:39 PM
I like this idea if any, and maybe even make our defense not be broken since I think humans supposedly were supposed to have the most defense, I don't remember if that was just PSP2 or PSO also

It was PSP2 that they had the highest defense. However, Cast HP and Beast HP+EVP outweighed human physical defense, so it was really more a "let's just give them something, but not anything useful." In PSO, I believe it was the Cast Rangers that had the highest defense for some odd reason.

SephirothXer0
Apr 28, 2011, 01:46 PM
It was PSP2 that they had the highest defense. However, Cast HP and Beast HP+EVP outweighed human physical defense, so it was really more a "let's just give them something, but not anything useful." In PSO, I believe it was the Cast Rangers that had the highest defense for some odd reason.

Probably because they looked like walking tanks

Ark22
Apr 28, 2011, 01:48 PM
Defense was broken =(.I never really cared about feril defense mods

Pillan
Apr 28, 2011, 01:48 PM
Probably because they looked like walking tanks

RAcaseal was the highest DFP in PSO. That is not a tank. Or the the second maid-tank since Space Balls.

eclipsXe
Apr 28, 2011, 01:59 PM
It was PSP2 that they had the highest defense. However, Cast HP and Beast HP+EVP outweighed human physical defense, so it was really more a "let's just give them something, but not anything useful." In PSO, I believe it was the Cast Rangers that had the highest defense for some odd reason.

Exactly so maybe depending on how they set the classes maybe Humans should get the highest defense or something that actually works. or just leave racial traits out.

SephirothXer0
Apr 28, 2011, 02:00 PM
RAcaseal was the highest DFP in PSO. That is not a tank. Or the the second maid-tank since Space Balls.

But they sure did suck! Suck! Suck!

NoiseHERO
Apr 28, 2011, 02:03 PM
I don't mind racial traits as long as it's balanced...

I hated how humans were mistreated in PSU, for not being a CAST anything-but-force, a beast hunter or newman force until the acros came out...

Personally I think the photon blasts for all races were silly though, besides SUV'S which got boring after a few times anyway, but if mags are back we won't need the PSU version.

Pillan
Apr 28, 2011, 02:08 PM
But, back to the main topic, I would personally say Human does not deserve anything special. Being able to play all three classes as the second best choice is good enough in a game where you can freely switch between them (and I will continue to assume you can change class in PSO2).

It does make me curious as to what you think should be done with Newman's stats though. The PSO styled low HP/ATP/ATA/DFP for high PP/TP/EVP/MST or the PSU/P2 style low HP/ATP/DFP for high PP/TP/EVP and higher ATA/MST? (I am using TP as PSU's tech power rather than tech points, MST as magic defense, and PP as photon points.)

The PSO style guaranteed that Human was second best at everything while PSU's made them third as anything doing melee/range, which made human seem like a horrible choice.

NoiseHERO
Apr 28, 2011, 02:22 PM
I guess without beasts the balance makes a LOT more sense...but they should still get something special cover over the big three, like how humans fit like a glove into the acro classes, but the other races could still use certain aspects of it better, depending. :0

But casts being the best as melee AND gunning will still bugs me...

Whatever, I can ignore balancing issues easily.

Pillan
Apr 28, 2011, 03:03 PM
But casts being the best as melee AND gunning will still bugs me...

Well, it would not be hard to balance Cast so that they have exactly the same ATP as Human. However, at that point, you would have to give them reasonable amounts of TP or some other stat (HP or ATA) overinflated. The "fairest" and most valued way I could see to do that would be the TP route. But I do not think the PSO crowd is fond of Casts with techs, much less a Cast Force doing as well or better a Newman Hunter.

•Col•
Apr 28, 2011, 03:15 PM
I guess without beasts the balance makes a LOT more sense...but they should still get something special cover over the big three, like how humans fit like a glove into the acro classes, but the other races could still use certain aspects of it better, depending. :0

But casts being the best as melee AND gunning will still bugs me...

Whatever, I can ignore balancing issues easily.

I think it depends on the number of over-arching classes... If there's only the 3 classes, then yeah it'd be balanced better without beasts. If there is 4 classes (with vanguard), Beasts would actually help to balance the races.

Seth Astra
Apr 28, 2011, 09:55 PM
I have lots of incomplete ideas that I really like, but since I'd probably be flamed till I actuall catch fire, I'll make a comment:

If they have Cast/Newman regenerations, make them work more or less like PSZ, where you regenerate while moving or standing, but standing around speeds it up. IIRC, they regenerated 5% per 5 seconds while standing still, 1% per 5 seconds if doing something.

Only change I'd make is make the regeneration gradual, rather than regenerating in "ticks".

Blueblur
Apr 28, 2011, 09:57 PM
So, thinking back to the good (or bad for some people) days of Episode 1 & 2, does anyone think that they might revive the racial traits?

For those that don't know, CASTs had health regeneration when standing still, the ability to drop mines, the ability to see mines and immunity to paralysis and poison.

Newmans had TP regeneration when standing still.

Humans had...well, the fact that they were human and were good and almost everything!

For better or for worse, I liked being able to stand still to heal, anyone else?

Of course, I'd like those racial traits to return. They were the kind of things that were simple but excellent at differentiating the races in PSO. I'd like to see an additional racial trait or two but I hope they do not go overboard with the concept. Keep it simple and it stays fun, IMO.

yoshiblue
Apr 28, 2011, 10:02 PM
Could always give the humes an extra hit in their combos or an ability to attack a bit faster.

Itoshi
Apr 28, 2011, 10:52 PM
If they choose to go with 3 classes/3 races, why not have Casts excel at Hunter, Humans excel at Ranger, and Newman excel at Force? Any other combination would be a hybridization of sorts and add a mix up to the play style.

Example: A Cast Hunter would have the highest ATP, but a Cast Ranger would take the Casts high ATP and add it to the ranger class at the expense of some ATA. (Exactly like PSO)

Another Example: A Human Ranger would have the highest ATA, but a Human Hunter would be a highly accurate Hunter (High ATA) at the expense of some of its ATP.

Third and final Example: A Newman Force would have the highest MST, but a Newman Ranger would be a hybrid Ranger/Force, having decent MST and good ATA.

Board
Apr 29, 2011, 12:51 AM
I think humans should have higher ATP since they actually have muscles that can growl. Another idea is to give humans a more varied stat spread since they are humans and they're great at everything.

CASTs should have a high DFP since I imagine they don't really feel pain (and if they do it's a massive design oversight for a COMBAT ROBOT) and ATA because I imagine they have pretty good motor control and can make micro-adjustments to their accuracy. ATP should be the second highest stat, standard EVP and low MST.

Newmans should have high MST since they excell at tech usage and EVP because they are usually lithe and graceful, and are probably engineered to have higher situational awareness (inb4 o noez space elves). Lower ATP and DFP because of their small frames and standard ATA.

Beasts (if they are included) should have high ATP and EVP since they were genetically engineered to be strong and I imagine they have heightened senses. DFP will be stanard, and ATA and MST will be low.

Wayu
Apr 29, 2011, 01:10 AM
I'm guessing that the stat specializations from PSP2i will return in PSO2.

-Wayu

SephirothXer0
Apr 29, 2011, 01:22 AM
I also don't think Casts should be able to use Techs. It would be a nerf to my own character, but it just makes sense to me. Magic has always been a spiritually-linked thing, and I don't think it can work for a mechanical construct.

Wayu
Apr 29, 2011, 01:27 AM
^

Ditto. How about positive techniques (like Shifta, Deband, Reveser/Giresta, Resta) affecting them?

-Wayu

yoshiblue
Apr 29, 2011, 01:30 AM
They could be affecting the processing/gears/whatever makes them tick speeds. Thats how i always though of it.

SephirothXer0
Apr 29, 2011, 01:31 AM
^

Ditto. How about positive techniques (like Shifta, Deband, Reveser/Giresta, Resta) affecting them?

-Wayu

I don't mind them being affected by positive or negative techniques, since in every other media magic can affect inorganic objects with no probs. Just no poison status since there's nothing there to poison.

RenzokukenZ
Apr 29, 2011, 05:00 AM
Well to be fair, in PSU techs were composed of photons, and photons were a natural energy, so anyone could use them when channeled through a weapon.

Anywho, I also would like for racial traits to be included in this game. Casts should keep HP regeneration, as it follows the same logic as them not being allowed to use techs. Newmans, I don't know. And Humans, since they're supposed to be the versitle and quick-learning race, why not give them a small EXP multiplier?

eclipsXe
Apr 29, 2011, 07:07 AM
Well to be fair, in PSU techs were composed of photons, and photons were a natural energy, so anyone could use them when channeled through a weapon.

Anywho, I also would like for racial traits to be included in this game. Casts should keep HP regeneration, as it follows the same logic as them not being allowed to use techs. Newmans, I don't know. And Humans, since they're supposed to be the versitle and quick-learning race, why not give them a small EXP multiplier?

That makes sense and hall for Humans but once we reach the cap that means we're back to having nothing, while Cast forever get to heal =/. Guess it's better then nothing though. I think I rather have our blast bar go up faster or something.

RenzokukenZ
Apr 29, 2011, 07:14 AM
The HP regen is there to compensate for inability to use healing spells. Nothing is lost or gained in that sense.

Niloklives
Apr 29, 2011, 07:22 AM
I don't mind them being affected by positive or negative techniques, since in every other media magic can affect inorganic objects with no probs. Just no poison status since there's nothing there to poison.

I feel paralysis is the same way. I mean it's supposed to affect the central nervous system. casts shouldn't be affected by that either.

eclipsXe
Apr 29, 2011, 07:35 AM
The HP regen is there to compensate for inability to use healing spells. Nothing is lost or gained in that sense.

Not saying Cast shouldn't get the auto recovery, just saying since I'm always Human in PS, I want something that last even after I reach level 200 if we recieved a racial trait.

Niloklives
Apr 29, 2011, 07:55 AM
RAcaseal was the highest DFP in PSO. That is not a tank. Or the the second maid-tank since Space Balls.

no but you could give them the standstill shield, which was just a big side of armor plating and a panzer faust grenade launcher (which roughly means tank fist)....she was a tiny tank! Like the edelweiss!!

Regardless of what she looked like she had the highest dfp and absurd hp. pretty damn good evp too iirc.

lostinseganet
Apr 29, 2011, 10:01 AM
MAn I totally forgot about those probably because I was always running around. Thinking a stationary force was a dead force.

Blueblur
Apr 29, 2011, 10:57 AM
I feel paralysis is the same way. I mean it's supposed to affect the central nervous system. casts shouldn't be affected by that either.

That's why PSO had the Shock status effect.

Kimil Adrayne
Apr 29, 2011, 12:20 PM
So far there's only evidence of Humans, Newmans and Casts in PSO2. Adding more races brings up the problem of balancing issues, so it might be a godsend that they don't add any past the three. I could live with just those three, but I would be a little sad to see my beast be retired for good.

The three basic species have good mojo between them.

Humans - base species
- Jack of All Trades
Newman - biologically engineered species
- Better with techniques and evasion
Cast - artificial species
- Better physically, can use traps

What I would do is add other races as 'sub-races' of these three, to try and keep races from older games while not destroying the balance. Make variants within the races that don't step on the toes of the other races.


Example (Since I love posting pointlessly long posts):
Humans
- Basic Humans, great overall defense and good attack (like in PSP2)
Stats: ATP C / DEF A / TEC C / MST A / ATA C / EVA A / HP B / PP C / STA A / SPD C
- Duman, sacrifices physical defense for physical attack. Maybe add some innate dark affinity and light weakness. (From PSP2)
Stats: ATP B / DEF B / TEC C / MST A / ATA B / EVA B / HP C / PP C / STA A / SPD C
- Esper, sacrifices magical defense for magical attack. Maybe add some innate light affinity and dark weakness. (Thinking of Kyra from PS4)
Stats: ATP C / DEF A / TEC B / MST B / ATA C / EVA A / HP C / PP B / STA B / SPD C

Numans
- Newmans, great overall magic ability, weaker physically
Stats: ATP D / DEF D / TEC A / MST A / ATA D / EVA B / HP D / PP A / STA C / SPD B
- Beasts, sacrifices magic ability for physically ability, Maybe add some innate speed increase. (like a mix of Acrofighters and Rika from PS4)
Stats: ATP C / DEF C / TEC B / MST B / ATA D / EVA A / HP C / PP B / STA C / SPD A
- Transers, sacrifices magic ability for support ability (traps, increased status infliction). (Guntechers)
Stats: ATP D / DEF D / TEC B / MST B / ATA B / EVA B / HP D / PP B / STA B / SPD B

Casts
- Cast 1, great physical ability, weak magical, affinity for large weapons (With HUcasts and RAcasts in mind)
Stats: ATP A / DEF A / TEC D / MST D / ATA B / EVA D / HP A / PP D / STA D / SPD D
- Cast 2, sacrificies physical ability for speed and accuracy (HUcaseals in mind)
Stats: ATP B / DEF B / TEC D / MST D / ATA A / EVA B / HP B / PP D / STA D / SPD C
- Cast 3, sacrificies physical ability for support (better traps and maybe some support techniques) (Like Demi from PS4 mixed with protransers)
Stats: ATP B / DEF B / TEC C / MST C / ATA B / EVA C / HP B / PP C / STA C / SPD D

NoiseHERO
Apr 29, 2011, 12:29 PM
I'm starting to see why some people really dislike racial traits...

If you wanna play as a certain race, but it doesn't have the trait you want... e_e

Itoshi
Apr 29, 2011, 12:29 PM
I like the idea. Unfortunately I doubt they would go with something like this...but if they did I would be extremely pleased.

Pillan
Apr 29, 2011, 12:38 PM
You probably want to add HP, PP, and STA into the stat comparisons as well. Or are you assuming that those are held constant and average at B for each race?

Kimil Adrayne
Apr 29, 2011, 12:41 PM
Naw, I just didn't touch those. I'll add them now.

Hrith
Apr 29, 2011, 12:44 PM
Cast supremacy, etc.

Hrith
Apr 29, 2011, 12:57 PM
Humans had...well, the fact that they were human and were good and almost everything!Humans could use 100 more materials, that was a huge racial bonus, IMO.

As for SEs, it never made sense that fleshies could get shocked and casts could get paralysed or poisoned.

Niloklives
Apr 29, 2011, 03:52 PM
Yeah shock is classic PSO only affected casts. it wasn't til ep1&2 I think that it was able to affect fleshies.

Hrith
Apr 29, 2011, 05:34 PM
Yes, mostly because of Ul Gibbons, methinks.

Niloklives
Apr 29, 2011, 05:56 PM
mhmm. I'm totally for casts being immune to certain SEs, but it'd only make sense they'd have to have a few cast specific SEs.

Perfect Troll
Apr 29, 2011, 08:16 PM
I think a cast being the best there is, physically, just makes sense. They're robots that have mechanical muscles that don't fatigue and that can work at 100% their capacity, whereas organic individuals only use so much of their muscle capacity without tearing them from their skeletons. They should be able to take damage like a Terminator, too. Having a computerized mind, they should have high accuracy.

That being said, mental(psychic) stats need to be buffed. Humans and Newmans should have access to weapons, abilities, maybe even armor, that does stuff based off of mental stats. Stuff like RCSMs(not necessarily Mags, but weapons that derive damage) from MST would be cool. What about armor that lets you generate a forefield on occassion? What if you could activate the abilities to increase physical abilities momentarily, through willpower, to say... increase your attack speed, or movement speed? A robot can only work at 100% capacity. What if you could take it to 110%, as a human/newman?

ShinMaruku
Apr 29, 2011, 08:52 PM
If there are to be some they have to be a bit better than they have been. Give them weapon bonuses or an activable racial abilty. Make it work well with their favored class as well. Also make the stats give weapons a bit more flavor. Snatching a bit from 40k is there are tech(aka psychic) weapons make certain races get a nice benefit from them. Sure Casts have higher strenth as they should but with that weapon a newman or human stated properly can do some nice extra damage due to the extra damage.

Little things like that can do a long way.

Blueblur
Apr 29, 2011, 11:34 PM
Yeah shock is classic PSO only affected casts. it wasn't til ep1&2 I think that it was able to affect fleshies.

Correct. That is something I never understood. I mean, I know the change was most likely enacted for balance purposes but I don't see how it really made a difference aside from being annoying for human and newman characters.

Niloklives
Apr 30, 2011, 12:35 AM
Correct. That is something I never understood. I mean, I know the change was most likely enacted for balance purposes but I don't see how it really made a difference aside from being annoying for human and newman characters.

yeah It's been ages since I played anything outside of BB. point I was making though was that there's nothing wrong with having casts have a few specialized SEs and immunities if they're balanced.

Niloklives
Apr 30, 2011, 12:38 AM
I think a cast being the best there is, physically, just makes sense. They're robots that have mechanical muscles that don't fatigue and that can work at 100% their capacity, whereas organic individuals only use so much of their muscle capacity without tearing them from their skeletons. They should be able to take damage like a Terminator, too. Having a computerized mind, they should have high accuracy.

That being said, mental(psychic) stats need to be buffed. Humans and Newmans should have access to weapons, abilities, maybe even armor, that does stuff based off of mental stats. Stuff like RCSMs(not necessarily Mags, but weapons that derive damage) from MST would be cool. What about armor that lets you generate a forefield on occassion? What if you could activate the abilities to increase physical abilities momentarily, through willpower, to say... increase your attack speed, or movement speed? A robot can only work at 100% capacity. What if you could take it to 110%, as a human/newman?

technically you could have stuff work at over 100% or below 100%. machines have regulators to keep them from using too much power and blowing up. but there's no reason a cast couldn't have an overdrive or limiter removal in comparison to what a human did. I agree though, I think techs need to be powered up. and casts should go back to being unable to use them.

Wayu
Apr 30, 2011, 12:56 AM
^

Use the edit button.

Anyways, the "overdrive" function sounds like a tantalizing possibility. It could be like a Mirage/Nano/Infinity Blast of sorts, only massively upping the CAST's stats for a short while. But, of course, removing the limiter on a machine damages it permanently on occasion, so they'll have to remove that realistic aspect of breaching limits. Maybe a period of time when stats are decreased post-overdrive?

-Wayu

Niloklives
Apr 30, 2011, 01:02 AM
^

Use the edit button.

-Wayu

I'll do what I want, thanks.

I thought by the time I got to posting that someone would would have said something. I think I've been around long enough to know what an edit button is, wayu.

anyway...I was thinking something more along the lines of HP going down constantly. a temp stat drop would be ok too. as long as there isn't a way to abuse the thing. I was only mentioning though cause someone was trying to say there was no way a machine could go over 100% when depending on your outlook they never go at 100% to begin with.

Blueblur
Apr 30, 2011, 10:52 AM
yeah It's been ages since I played anything outside of BB. point I was making though was that there's nothing wrong with having casts have a few specialized SEs and immunities if they're balanced.

I agree.

RenzokukenZ
Apr 30, 2011, 09:00 PM
Anyways, the "overdrive" function sounds like a tantalizing possibility. It could be like a Mirage/Nano/Infinity Blast of sorts, only massively upping the CAST's stats for a short while. But, of course, removing the limiter on a machine damages it permanently on occasion, so they'll have to remove that realistic aspect of breaching limits. Maybe a period of time when stats are decreased post-overdrive?
-Wayu

If that's the case, then everyone should enter a state of exhaustion after using a Mirage/Nano/Infinity blast of sorts.

Sinue_v2
Apr 30, 2011, 09:17 PM
and casts should go back to being unable to use them. (techs)

I agree with this.

I also think Megid should be a rage-based skill that only humans can use, causes large damage to all enemies in the room, but it damages their HP to a dangerous level that cannot be healed for a few moments of "cool down". While we're at it, I think Grants should return to being a protective spell (perhaps Newman only) which makes the party invulnerable for a short period of time... (15 ~ 20 seconds?), but the caster cannot cast any other spells during that time.

But hey, I'm just old school like that.

CAST SUV weapons from PSU were pretty cool, and I wouldn't mind seeing that make a return to give them something. Just so long as they aren't so fucking goofy looking this time around. Maybe integrate them into the chassis rather than just have them teleport in... so different unit upgrades have different animations for the way the CAST body opens up and delivers the payload.

Also... boobie missles for female Casts.

ShinMaruku
Apr 30, 2011, 10:31 PM
Mmm boobie missles... :E

Crystal_Shard
Apr 30, 2011, 11:16 PM
Mmm boobie missles... :E

Well, guess we now know where Demi (PSIV) would have installed the Burst Rocket.

@Sinue_v2: Old schoolers ftw!

Megid doesn't have to be a human only thing, but at least let it live up to its old reputation as the most destructive technique known to anyone. It should be the Ultima of PS, not a death spell or gravity spell.

I'd actually say that there's a case for letting Casts use "techniques" as PSIV does make a distinction between actual magic, and the techniques of the day. It makes it sound like the techniques are based on science, rather than on something mental. However, in return, they would need to bring back actual "magic".

Anyway, to be even more old school, I say change up the racial traits to be even more true to the originals. Humans : Magic + all rounded, Newmans : Power and Speed, Casts : Defense and Accuracy. Look at the human characters in PSIV and notice how many are not in a melee oriented role:

Chaz : The only character with a melee focus, but note that he has healing, and wields two of the most powerful technique series in the game, Grantz and Megid.
Alys : Uses slicers certainly, but her techniques and skills are her primary damage dealer
Hahn : Tech oriented
Rune : Primary tech and magic user
Kyra : Also another tech and magic user

@RezonkukenZ: I'd be a little worried that having everyone get the same negative state from using a racial special would make things too homogeneous. Mixing up what kind of restrictions get enforced would go better towards making races feel different.

Still, if it's still cooldowns all the way then for the casts, it'll be overheating versus everyone else getting exhaustion?

FEI LEE
Apr 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
Could of swore I read somewhere that techs are science based. I guess that would logically allow them story wise to delve into the magic aspect of PSO2.

Having them restricted from tech use would at least in my opinion make techs seem a little more "special" if you will.

Niloklives
Apr 30, 2011, 11:34 PM
PS4 differentiated between techs and skills. "magic" as far as the story was concerned was a skill while techs were techs. Techs though still had an organic component to them as neither wren nor demi was able to use them. Techs were more of a watered down successor to "magic" which was an art lost over the generations when they migrated to Motavia and was preserved by the Espers.

Never (to my recollection) in PSIV is it implied that techs had a scientific component, and even if they did, that does NOT rule out an organic component.

That said, it's simple enough to say that magic is a lost art.

I agree though, if races have specific active abilities with consequences, the consequences should have SOME variety to them, though that might help single a race out as having a particularly meaningless ability or repercussion.

I definitely think casts should have an alternative to techs, I'm just not sure what.

RenzokukenZ
Apr 30, 2011, 11:35 PM
It would be the same end result, but of course would work differently.

After using an SUV/Limiter Removal (was going to say Limit Break, but that's something else for another day), the Cast would overheat, maybe causing a short time where they can't move to cool down, but are covered by an emergency energy field to offer minor defense rather than being completely defenseless.

For the Humans, while physically stronger than Newmans, they may gain a heavy strain of mental exhaustion, completely limiting the damage they do with techs for a short period of time, or perhaps even disable techs.


And for Newmans, they'll get physical stress, limiting damage with physical attacks, or reducing movement speed, or something of the sort.

•Col•
Apr 30, 2011, 11:51 PM
I definitely think casts should have an alternative to techs, I'm just not sure what.

I thought about this the other day.... What if there was an techs specifically for Casts? They still wouldn't be as good as actual magic, but it'd still be neat... They could be called Programs or something. xD

So for instance, instead of being able to learn Resta, they get a Self-Repair Program that heals a portion of HP. A foie-esque program would turn the Cast's arm into a cannon to shoot a fireball. And a zonde type one could simply be the Cast giving off an electrical discharge.

So uh... Yeah, I think y'all get the idea.

Crystal_Shard
Apr 30, 2011, 11:55 PM
@FEI LEE, NIloklives: I think there might have been a footnote in PSO at least, that indicated a scientific element to techniques. PSIV admittedly had no such explicit indication.

Not ruling out an organic component, but here's a little food for thought - both PSIV Androids were based on old technology circa PSII. Their lack of modern day techniques could well be due to the ability simply not being programmed in or installed. Who's to say that a "technique module" couldn't be built for them eventually? ^_^

The cast alternative to tech would be fairly simple - all those built in weapons of the android of old. Healing? There's Medic Power and Regenerate. You could still keep SUVs as their trump card.

@RenzokukenZ: Sounds about right. I'd probably not make casts immobile if the game ends up being anything like PSPo2 in difficulty though.

Regarding the others, are we talking in terms of PSO style racial traits or the ones I suggested? Limiting mental strength for humans and physical for newmans would only work if that were to be their primary damage stat - if I were weakened and the game limited a stat I hardly ever use, there'll be even less incentive to mixup playstyles.

Pillan
Apr 30, 2011, 11:55 PM
If I recall, Casts did have a substitute for techniques - traps. Even more so when they gained heal traps in PSZ. It does not seem difficult to make traps PP and/or art based rather than a purchased or count limited item.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 12:03 AM
If I recall, Casts did have a substitute for techniques - traps. Even more so when they gained heal traps in PSZ. It does not seem difficult to make traps PP and/or art based rather than a purchased or count limited item.

My only major contention with this is PSU gave everyone traps. If this carries over it will no longer be a unique trait. If they make it an exclusive again, I think traps should have a few more tricks to them than what we got in classic PSO.

@FEI LEE, NIloklives: I think there might have been a footnote in PSO at least, that indicated a scientific element to techniques. PSIV admittedly had no such explicit indication.

Not ruling out an organic component, but here's a little food for thought - both PSIV Androids were based on old technology circa PSII. Their lack of modern day techniques could well be due to the ability simply not being programmed in or installed. Who's to say that a "technique module" couldn't be built for them eventually? ^_^

The cast alternative to tech would be fairly simple - all those built in weapons of the android of old. Healing? There's Medic Power and Regenerate. You could still keep SUVs as their trump card.

@RenzokukenZ: Sounds about right. I'd probably not make casts immobile if the game ends up being anything like PSPo2 in difficulty though.

Regarding the others, are we talking in terms of PSO style racial traits or the ones I suggested? Limiting mental strength for humans and physical for newmans would only work if that were to be their primary damage stat - if I were weakened and the game limited a stat I hardly ever use, there'll be even less incentive to mixup playstyles.


When I was younger I actually entertained the idea of a tech protocol for casts. Hindsight is 20/20 though and in retrospect I like the idea of it requiring an innate organic component that can't be replicated or maintained without an organic body. I think especially in a team base environment, making certain traits more unique will add to diversity.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 12:12 AM
Hopefully if traps do resurface in PSO2 they at the very least tweak them somehow. Traps were a fun aspect in PSO but having something more than point, click, freeze, etc would be nice imo at least.

•Col•
May 1, 2011, 12:17 AM
If I recall, Casts did have a substitute for techniques - traps. Even more so when they gained heal traps in PSZ. It does not seem difficult to make traps PP and/or art based rather than a purchased or count limited item.

Ah, right. That'd work too, lol. I was in a PSO mindset, where Cast's traps were so-so. I dunno if a PP based trap system would work though.... Imagine spamming Freeze traps... :(

RenzokukenZ
May 1, 2011, 12:22 AM
Ah, right. That'd work too, lol. I was in a PSO mindset, where Cast's traps were so-so. I dunno if a PP based trap system would work though.... Imagine spamming Freeze traps... :(

You mean like spamming the Barta spells?

•Col•
May 1, 2011, 12:24 AM
You mean like spamming the Barta spells?

You can't spam them as fast, and the freeze traps have a MUCH higher chance of freezing the enemy.

Dongra
May 1, 2011, 12:31 AM
I was in a PSO mindset, where Cast's traps were so-so.
I think you mean game breaking.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 12:38 AM
I think you mean game breaking.

Agreed.

•Col•
May 1, 2011, 12:41 AM
I think you mean game breaking.

Yeah but if I remember right, you had a fairly limited amount. Which is why I'm saying if it was PP based, it'd be horrible unless they were toned down...... Which would pretty much negate their entire purpose to begin with.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 12:48 AM
There are ways to fix that. They could have a cool down for example. or make it so you don't gain back PP while they're active.

They could forget the PP thing entirely and have them slowly regenerate over time and/or have it so new more powerful and more limited traps become available as the character levels up and have weaker traps less effective on higher level monsters.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 12:54 AM
Yeah but if I remember right, you had a fairly limited amount. Which is why I'm saying if it was PP based, it'd be horrible unless they were toned down...... Which would pretty much negate their entire purpose to begin with.

The thing is the amount of traps a cast could use increased as they leveled up. Fourteen or so traps (feel free to correct me) I think at max level was more than enough if you saved them only for the difficult spawns where you could essentially "lock" a spawn in place by freezing again once they unfroze.

As much as I love traps in PSO I hope they do not end up like that again.

Dongra
May 1, 2011, 01:01 AM
20 traps was the maximum.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 01:05 AM
20 traps was the maximum.

Ah ok lol I had a feeling I'd mess up :p. To much RAmar play for me lol

•Col•
May 1, 2011, 01:05 AM
The thing is the amount of traps a cast could use increased as they leveled up. Fourteen or so traps (feel free to correct me) I think at max level was more than enough if you saved them only for the difficult spawns where you could essentially "lock" a spawn in place by freezing again once they unfroze.

As much as I love traps in PSO I hope they do not end up like that again.

Was it really 14? I think you may have gotten 14 Fire traps and Confuse traps, but had less Freeze traps.... I'm not really sure, my brother was always the one that played the Casts, lol. Anyway, even then you could only really completely lock down a room or two...

But my point is, if those traps stayed as powerful as they were, and were PP-based, it would be unfair, yes?

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 01:09 AM
Was it really 14? I think you may have gotten 14 Fire traps and Confuse traps, but had less Freeze traps.... I'm not really sure, my brother was always the one that played the Casts, lol. Anyway, even then you could only really completely lock down a room or two...

But my point is, if those traps stayed as powerful as they were, and were PP-based, it would be unfair, yes?

Actually it would be worse since when you ran out of traps it required you to telepipe back to the city to heal up and restore them creating a brief moment where they weren't spammed on the battlefield.

If they used TP assuming it's still the same system you would be able to replenish them on the field and resume spamming. This is however, assuming there is an easily accessible way to replenish TP.

•Col•
May 1, 2011, 01:13 AM
Actually it would be worse since when you ran out of traps it required you to telepipe back to the city to heal up and restore them creating a brief moment where they weren't spammed on the battlefield.

If they used TP assuming it's still the same system you would be able to replenish them on the field and resume spamming. This is however, assuming there is an easily accessible way to replenish TP.

If anything, they'd use PP, which recharges automatically. And quite quickly, might I add.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 01:22 AM
If anything, they'd use PP, which recharges automatically. And quite quickly, might I add.

That's just scary thinking about it :-P

Pillan
May 1, 2011, 08:21 AM
Yeah but if I remember right, you had a fairly limited amount. Which is why I'm saying if it was PP based, it'd be horrible unless they were toned down...... Which would pretty much negate their entire purpose to begin with.

It would be fairly easy to balance PP based traps. All you really need is to increase damage and decrease the effect landing rate of statuses that stop the enemy (shock, freeze, stun, etc.). So, essentially, spamming freeze traps would be the equivalent of spamming PSU's Gibarta.

JC10001
May 1, 2011, 12:26 PM
*Prepares for backlash*

Why not just give Humans 2/3 the ATP and TP of Casts/Newmans but make up for it by giving them exclusive access to MAGs? This way the Casts/Newmans are clearly better using their respective moves but a Human can use weaker versions of both and they have the big screen clearing moves to make up for the lack of damage their other attacks do.

Wayu
May 1, 2011, 12:28 PM
2/3's way too much of a damage reduction.

But otherwise maybe?

-Wayu

Pillan
May 1, 2011, 12:36 PM
*Prepares for backlash*

Why not just give Humans 2/3 the ATP and TP of Casts/Newmans but make up for it by giving them exclusive access to MAGs? This way the Casts/Newmans are clearly better using their respective moves but a Human can use weaker versions of both and they have the big screen clearing moves to make up for the lack of damage their other attacks do.

The simple reason is that they tried it at the beginning of PSU by giving Casts 30% of Newman TP (making A rank tech weapons unusable outside of Fortetecher) and making the Cast ATP and ATA advantages almost negligible. The advantage of the blast ended up overpowering the two negligible advantages to the point of the standard "Cast Supremacy" today.

As far as balance goes, an exclusive blast will either result in everyone playing the race with the single good blast or no one playing that race because no blast is the superior option. There is no middle ground with that. So the best idea to stop the end-game complaints is to basically give everyone an equivalent version of everything.

JC10001
May 1, 2011, 12:48 PM
The simple reason is that they tried it at the beginning of PSU by giving Casts 30% of Newman TP (making A rank tech weapons unusable outside of Fortetecher) and making the Cast ATP and ATA advantages almost negligible. The advantage of the blast ended up overpowering the two negligible advantages to the point of the standard "Cast Supremacy" today.

As far as balance goes, an exclusive blast will either result in everyone playing the race with the single good blast or no one playing that race because no blast is the superior option. There is no middle ground with that. So the best idea to stop the end-game complaints is to basically give everyone an equivalent version of everything.

IMO, they did not properly balance it in PSU. Heck, they did not even TRY to balance it in my eyes. Cast had no business having SUVs in PSU IMO. They were already the best at every non-tech using class in the game without them. Them having the SUV on top of that was just overkill. But if they would have made humans a little weaker and given them SUVs (maybe not Paradi) it could have worked out. This way the people who want big numbers can play Cast/Newmans and the people who want more variety can play humans.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 01:01 PM
SUVs were awesome and you know it

Pillan
May 1, 2011, 01:06 PM
Oh, I certainly agree with you that today it does not even look like they tried to balance PSU. I also would argue that today it looks like they did not try to balance PSO, given HUnewearl, RAmarl, and FOnewm. I suppose you could argue FOnewm is balanced by "having to look like a FOnewm," but the other two had looks and power.

As far as the blast goes, tell me how you would solve this problem, which I will call the blast problem:

You want to make it so that the blast makes the lack of stats for one race exactly equal to the gain of stats in the other races. But a blast's value is based on how fast it charges and how many enemies you hit with the blast. So, since we know odds are you will not always be in a big room when it fills, you will probably save the blast. Thus there is a range in which the blast will be charged and unused.

Do you increase the power of the charge to compensate for the non-optimal usage environment or do you increase the speed of the charge so that it becomes more useful on smaller groups?

Essentially, you will come to a point where the blast ends up generally making a good player who figures out that formula a little stronger or a little weaker than the other races, no matter how you balance it. This issue purely exists from being a blast rather than a base statistic.

And you will then return to the PSO/U problem of "I can play x race because I like the way it 'feels' or I can play the good race."

JC10001
May 1, 2011, 02:04 PM
Oh, I certainly agree with you that today it does not even look like they tried to balance PSU. I also would argue that today it looks like they did not try to balance PSO, given HUnewearl, RAmarl, and FOnewm. I suppose you could argue FOnewm is balanced by "having to look like a FOnewm," but the other two had looks and power.

As far as the blast goes, tell me how you would solve this problem, which I will call the blast problem:

You want to make it so that the blast makes the lack of stats for one race exactly equal to the gain of stats in the other races. But a blast's value is based on how fast it charges and how many enemies you hit with the blast. So, since we know odds are you will not always be in a big room when it fills, you will probably save the blast. Thus there is a range in which the blast will be charged and unused.

Do you increase the power of the charge to compensate for the non-optimal usage environment or do you increase the speed of the charge so that it becomes more useful on smaller groups?

Essentially, you will come to a point where the blast ends up generally making a good player who figures out that formula a little stronger or a little weaker than the other races, no matter how you balance it. This issue purely exists from being a blast rather than a base statistic.

And you will then return to the PSO/U problem of "I can play x race because I like the way it 'feels' or I can play the good race."

You raise several good points.

I guess what I would do would be to make a human and cast with identical everything except for stats. Then you would need to figure out how long you want it to take to charge the blast. You would pick an arbitrary number...say 5 minutes of fighting enemies. Now in those 5 minutes lets say the Cast did 5000 damage and the human did 3,333. I would make it so that the blast did slightly more than 1,666 damage total. I say slightly more because there would almost definitely been a casting time involved that you would need to take into consideration. I would split the 1,666 damage up among the number of enemies on the screen. So if there is just 1 enemy he would get hit for 1,666 and if there were 2 they would get hit for 833. This way the blast always does the same total damage no matter what number of enemies are on screen. This would essentially remove the number of enemies on screen from the equation completely.

I would also make it so the damage scaled with the amount of time it was charged. So if 5 minutes was the minimum time and the player held it for 10 minutes then it would do 3332 damage (1,666 x 2). An alternative to this would be to store more than 1 charge at a time. Perhaps up to 3.

Pillan
May 3, 2011, 10:16 AM
Oh, here is a fun little exercise for those who want to play around with balance. When you think about any game really, the game will be set such that the damaged dealt in the amount of time you survive is about equal, so:

[damage dealt]*[time survived] = [constant]

And, of course, that can essentially be separated into the three types of damage:

[melee dealt]*[range dealt]*[tech dealt]*[melee survived]*[range survived]*[tech survived] = [constant]

Then those can be divided into the three statistics. I will assume that range damage is just based on ATA (ignoring the negligible effect of ATP and TP in PSP2). That gives us the following:

(PP*ATP*ATA)*(PP*ATA*ATA)*(PP*TP)*(HP*DFP*EVP)*(HP *DFP*EVP)*(HP*MST) = [constant]

And, simplified further:

[PP³*ATP*ATA³*TP]*[HP³*DFP²*EVP²*MST] = [constant]

I will not go over issues with balancing DFP in general that have been presented in PSU/P2 because it is easy to fix by running a calculation on how much you want DFP to reduce on average. And blocking essentially cancels the effect of Photon Arts on diminished DFP, so I will assume they will have it fixed at this point. I will also assume that STA is a constant and PP regeneration is a constant percentage of total PP.

I will apply another limit – you can only trade offensive stats for offensive stats and you can only trade defensive stats for defensive stats. The reason for this is because who would not want to play Duman if they could push all the defensive stats down to max all the offensive ones? Beast does the opposite to some extent (PP and TP for more HP and EVP), so I will modify them slightly.

And last I will assume that there is no Cast trade off. Essentially, you cannot drop PP/TP to zero for traps, immunities, and HP regeneration. This is simply for the same reason as the blast problem – it is a nightmare to balance it.

So, with that, I would expect the following stat distributions:

Human:
HP: B, PP: B, ATP: B, ATA: B, TP: B, DFP: B, EVP: B, MST: B

Newman:
HP: C, PP: A, ATP: C, ATA: C, TP: A, DFP: C, EVP: A+, MST: A+

Cast:
HP: A, PP: C, ATP: A, ATA: A, TP: C, DFP: A, EVP: C-, MST: C

If they add them:

Beast:
HP: A-, PP: B, ATP: S, ATA: C, TP: B, DFP: C, EVP: B+, MST: C


And, just because that high magic beast build interests me, I will toss it out for the fun of it:

Beast:
HP: B+, PP: B, ATP: A, ATA: C, TP: A, DFP: C, EVP: A-, MST: C

Feel free to play around with that equation for fun and make your own balanced races or come up with new equations and ideas.

SS_Death
Jul 22, 2011, 04:51 PM
Whoa, didn't expect things to turn into such a large debate...

Personally I think the biggest burden CAST players has is when soloing you have to rely on healing items, no Resta and fluids for multiple heals, oh no. 10 Dimate, 10 Trimate, 10 Star Atomisers and as many Scape Dolls as you can carry...although, it doesn't help much when you do play with friends when Flaz keep soul sucking you and they SHOOT HIM!!!

Ranting aside, personally I am hoping for MAGs, hence the removal of the need for SUVs being race specific. But regardless I'm sticking with the CASTS, magic and me just don't get along...