This looks more like PSU2 tbh...

[RenzokukenZ]

But hey, this helped prove a point concerning Sakai and learning from mistakes, if Infinity's crazy drop charts are any indication.

[Wayu]

Infinity Missions completely disregard enemy balance; that being said its drops are also all over the place.

-Wayu

[BIG OLAF]

You had the US version. :/

But let's not go there again.

-Wayu

I would gladly trade the US/EU version's crazy drop rate for all the awesome clothing DLC the JP version got. I really would.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

@Wayu

Rare drops are an evil gumball machine that eats time and spews random rewards.

Essentially, they're a skinner box for people.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box

PSU was like sitting in a room with a button, pressing it frequently, and getting a treat sometimes.

I really hope that if they decide to keep a rare drop system, they handle it the same way that The World Ends with You did. So you can level yourself down for added difficulty and higher rare drops. And actually balance it so you can get some decently high drop %

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Essentially, they're a skinner box for people.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box

PSU was like sitting in a room with a button, pressing it frequently, and getting a treat sometimes.Right, and that's exactly what a game like this needs to keep people interested. There's nothing wrong with it.

PSU had a problem, though, in that it didn't do this enough. There were no worthwhile drops from regular enemies. The only good drops were from end boxes, and they didn't drop often enough. In other words, the reenforcement schedule was very poorly designed, with too large gaps between rewards.


I agree that the Skinner box model is overused in modern gaming and other factors (engaging story/characters/world, engrossing interaction, etc.) are far preferable in making a good game. However, it really doesn't apply too well to an online game such as this. While a high quality but short game is much better than a very long but needlessly padded game in the offline world, it simply is not a reasonable business model for an online RPG. SEGA needs people to keep playing for months and years so that they can continue to make money. This isn't true of offline games, where they make the money on the initial sale and that's that.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

The postmodernist defense. "There's nothing better or worse, just different." PSO isn't just different, and we should be open to criticize the series short comings.

There's also a lot of valid arguments for PSO getting out of the "online RPG" market as it becomes more action oriented, because its not very good at being an online RPG. Taking on the mantle of a full online action game would not only keep PSO2 from competing with the unstoppable WoW, but would distinguish it as one of the few games like it on the market. Team based action combat with stylish moves and a randomized environment and challenges? Not to mention whatever other gameplay Sakai has planned (that he keeps alluding to). I can see this being a big success with fans and new players alike.

Let's demand they amputate the RPG element, because it's starting to look a little old and rotten. If PSO wants to be a modern game, and not a throwback to 2000, it needs to discard the skinner box too.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

You missed the point.

Could they eschew the Skinner box model and make a more engrossing action game? Absolutely.
Would people play it for years straight? Absolutely not.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

There are designs that would keep people coming back legitimately that could also be monetized. User created content coupled with new tools and materials through micro-transaction DLC? Or surviving like any other online game does, by making sequels that stand on their own. Content doesn't run out NEARLY as fast when the gameplay isn't being played so hard and long. Especially when randomized environments and challenges keep things fresh. You can even pick up a lot of new players if they don't feel like it's an investment they're going to regret. The reasons lots of people don't take up smoking.

We acknowledge that these are bad game mechanics for OTHER games, but we need it in this game? The 'difference' between this and other games is the argument that this game could not be produced through sales and sales alone? Is it really so big, or so expansive? Is the online service really so total, or well maintained and moderated? You admit the gameplay of the past games wouldn't even last without the cheap trick of the skinner box. So without the skinner box bullying us for our lunch money after the first sale, what features would be cut? Are we REALLY getting our moneys worth?

The PC only platform opens the door to an actual reason to get a subscription. If they could offer new monthly content and quality online services that no one else could deliver, that's a reason to subscribe. NOT the skinner box.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

That's all well and good, but it wouldn't work.

When you ask people why they played PSO or PSU for years and years, you typically get one of only two responses. It's either because of the friends they met on the game, or because they kept trying to find that next big rare.

I think you'll find that the majority of the fans of this series enjoy the Skinner box stealing their lunch money. Some people like to play slot machines, others just play PSO. The series caters to a very specific audience, and pleonexia is the main motivator for that audience. You don't have to like it, but it's the way it is.

[Rock Eastwood]

I agree with the fuzz, the whole random number generator keep working to get that next shiny rare is what keeps people feeling rewarded and entertained.

Even I played PSU so long mostly for the community parts of it, but a lot of my friends would do just that, play with their friends and hunt rares. I didn't care for rares much because of how it drove people crazy, but it was fun helping people find the ones they want until a new drop came out, that I actually wanted, but usually obtained easily..

[GCoffee]

I agree with the fuzz, the whole random number generator keep working to get that next shiny rare is what keeps people feeling rewarded and entertained.

Even I played PSU so long mostly for the community parts of it, but a lot of my friends would do just that, play with their friends and hunt rares. I didn't care for rares much because of how it drove people crazy, but it was fun helping people find the ones they want until a new drop came out, that I actually wanted, but usually obtained easily..

The dropcharts of PSU were retarded, though. PSO laughs at them. Not Pinkal though. Pinkal doesn't...

[Anon_Fire]

What about PSP2's drop chats?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I don't know, I don't have a PSP.

As long as monsters drop worthwhile rares instead of putting everything in boxes, the drops will be fine. Well, the rates shouldn't be as abysmally low as some of PSU's stuff, but you get the idea.

[•Col•]

What about PSP2's drop chats?

Better than PSU, not as ridiculous as PSO2.

I think if they made it a little more difficult for the better drops than they were in PSP2, it'd be cool.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

No one has addressed or even tried answering my questions. Are you getting your money's worth out of PSO as a service?

Was it cool that PSU charged you money for non-monthly unlocking of features for a game that already existed in its entirety on the disk you already bought? Playing the game online for a full year, cost you over twice the initial purchase of the software for nothing more than what was already on the disk. Many of us played for years... would you buy a copy PSU for 500 dollars if it was free to play for four years? 480 dollars, is just the subscription fee for four years.

PSO, v.2, ep.1&2, PSU, all of these games were released on a disk. What did we get out of those? A scrappy set of downloadable quests? Was Blue Burst any better?

Does anyone even remember that PSO was free to play? I remember thinking at 14 when version 2 came out "oh that's lame I can't afford that and my parents would never pay for it." It's time to look back and ask important questions. What did paying a monthly fee bring to the maintenance, moderation, and content of the game?

From what I've seen, from first hand experience playing these games. Nothing except exploiting us for our psychological ensnarement by a skinner box system. This is not a service, it's a scam.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

You say scam, I say online RPG.

Tomato, tomato.

[Justyn_Darkcrest]

No one has addressed or even tried answering my questions. Are you getting your money's worth out of PSO as a service?

Was it cool that PSU charged you money for non-monthly unlocking of features for a game that already existed in its entirety on the disk you already bought? Playing the game online for a full year, cost you over twice the initial purchase of the software for nothing more than what was already on the disk. Many of us played for years... would you buy a copy PSU for 500 dollars if it was free to play for four years? 480 dollars, is just the subscription fee for four years.

PSO, v.2, ep.1&2, PSU, all of these games were released on a disk. What did we get out of those? A scrappy set of downloadable quests? Was Blue Burst any better?

Does anyone even remember that PSO was free to play? I remember thinking at 14 when version 2 came out "oh that's lame I can't afford that and my parents would never pay for it." It's time to look back and ask important questions. What did paying a monthly fee bring to the maintenance, moderation, and content of the game?

From what I've seen, from first hand experience playing these games. Nothing except exploiting us for our psychological ensnarement by a skinner box system. This is not a service, it's a scam.

This has been beaten into the ground in countless topics before.

Let me sum up, Sega provides us with a game that has online service, you can either choose to pay for it or not as you choose. We pay to play the game online with other ppl who do the same, at no point is Sega "required to unlock data that's already on the disk" (also known as updates) for us.

Something to remember is that Sega is a business, and they will try to get as much money out of us as they possibly can, and before we get more cries of "But they owe it to the customer", no. They don't. We pay for a service, if we're unhappy with the service, we take our money elsewhere. That simple.

[Niloklives]

Ffuzzy's right, with an improved promise of reinforcement and content spread out and regularly updated so people have a reason to keep coming back, the game would be fine. The basic model is a community grindfest. That's pretty much it. Hit the button enough times and a treat pops out. That's par for the course and if you don't like it you probably should play an online RPGs.

The purpose of the game is to keep you paying the monthly fee to hang with your friends and chase shinies. PSO does not need to compete with WoW to succeed. They only need to maintain a core audience which means keeping things interesting. In japan, PSOBB lasted almost a decade. That should tell you how sucessful the model is.

A new offline only PS game would be cool and all, but structuring a game that's intended to keep you playing and paying for years in a way where after the first week you're just whacking things for the hell of it would kill any hope for real income.

[Nitro Vordex]

Was it cool that PSU charged you money for non-monthly unlocking of features for a game that already existed in its entirety on the disk you already bought? Playing the game online for a full year, cost you over twice the initial purchase of the software for nothing more than what was already on the disk. Many of us played for years... would you buy a copy PSU for 500 dollars if it was free to play for four years? 480 dollars, is just the subscription fee for four years.

Well, no shit nobody would pay 500 dollars for a game, even with the promise of four years. No company, not even Sega, would do something so ridiculous. You also seem to miss the point of a subscription. By making you pay by the month, it seems like a lot less. Just looking at it gives you the feeling of it being less.

$9.99 a month
$500 for four years

Plus, that's a set timeframe. There's no guarantee you're even going to be playing that long. By paying for the month, you're saving time and money. Sega knows that people wouldn't be that dumb. Now, if they offered something similar to the Gold Members for XBL, say 3 months for 20 bucks and 60 bucks for a year, then that would be acceptable.

The initial cost is something you're going to pay, no matter what. A good company will try to provide updates and bug fixes constantly to their game, so they can keep their subscribers and make new ones.

tl;dr (and probably makes more sense) : Paying all at once is a moot point. We're aware of how much we spend (or have spent) on such games.

[Genoa]

Can be called "Phantasy Star Online Universe Zero Infinity Blue Burst Revolution Portable"
I am going to play the shit out of this

[Eidolus_Dyne]

Sorry for trampling your sacred cow. Remind me to never suggest that PSO could be anything but an online RPG from the year 2000 with draconian reward schedules and subscription fees. I really shouldn't have been advocating for the radical removal of certain gameplay mechanics, when it's pretty obvious they'll be making a return in one form or another.

It really doesn't mean that other, more innovative gameplay couldn't happen along side the shallow and meaningless grindfest. As the trailers for PSO2 has shown. But based on what I've seen people suggesting and the way they talk to each other here... I don't see any point in participating in the discussion anymore.

maybe I'll see you in the Beta or at release or something.

[Niloklives]

I want a new cow

[Wayu]

Cow tipping, anyone?

-Wayu

[RenzokukenZ]

the shallow and meaningless grindfest.

It's what keeps up playing for a long time. It's the sole purpose of an RPG.

If that means plundering dungeons for phat loot for hours on end, then so be it :D

[Ryna]

Since this has degenerated into a heated PSO versus PSU argument, I am going to lock it.