I want PSO2 to be like Spelunky

[Eidolus_Dyne]

I'm dreamin' large! These are entirely just my most idealized wishes.

I love the new direction Phantasy Star is taking. I've always thought that PSO walked a line between Action and RPG with the worst of both worlds. With PSO2 I feel like its firmly striding toward Action and away from RPG, but I could be happier.

No more level ups, tiered equipment systems, and otherwise cheap game mechanics. These have, for much too long, been described as "RPG" but I don't think that's right. At all. We can all pretend that level ups facilitate role playing, but is this really true? I think that these systems create a "keeping up with the joneses" mentality that is exactly contradictory to having fun. It's described in this video as The Skinner Box, and I think it's a sign of lack luster creativity in design.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box

I think that anyone who wants to think critically about games and their designs should watch this video. And you absolutely MUST if you want to participate in this discussion.

Spelunky. For those of you who are unfamiliar. Spelunky is the game that is most surprising and open to discovery I have ever played. I still go back to it, curious to see what kind of environments, and challenges it will generate for me. It's simple, but creates a whole range of scenarios that are both fresh, and interesting. It's difficult to play the game the way I might have played PSU a few years ago. Eyes half lidded, barely aware... reflexes in total control. In Spelunky, if you rush and don't pay attention. That's it, game over.

But that's Rogue-like game design for you. If you can't have YASD (yet another stupid death) it's no fun. Failure seems to be an under appreciated outcome in games these days. But man, I've had some spectacularly memorable failures in Spelunky. It's a learning experience, it's engaging my interest. It's the antithesis to that... grindy farmy mindless sloggy experience that I had with both PSO and PSU.

So what would PSO2 be like in my idealized star studded fantasy dream?

-Randomized fields would have such a variety of outcomes, that they'd create emergent dangers and challenges that would not only hold my interest, but if I didn't learn and pay attention they could actually beat me.

-No level ups, or incentive to farm. Structure the game like C-mode from PSO, and I'd be super happy. C-mode with randomized fields? Yes yes yes yes. Remember how gear in C-mode was always really good? Give me my rewards like water, and take them away when I fail. Not only does it mean some of us would actually get to SEE some of the cool stuff that most people would take months to farm, we'd see it pretty often. Like the jetpack in Spelunky. Sure it's hard to come by, but it makes things interesting if we can lose it too.

+now let me be clear. Most people would baw over perma death. But think about it, why do we fear it so much? This is a game after all, you can always try again. Essentially it's a world proven to have reincarnation. Death is just a mild set back, try try again. When we have systems that promote farming and hording items and levels, it creates that fear of loss. Sure failure sucks, but it can be an interesting outcome and the game should be designed to facilitate a variety of experiences and make them ALL interesting. The way REAL Role Playing games do, you know, in the meat space. These so-called RPG game mechanics are being used as the anti-thesis to actual role playing. How do they still share the same label?!

-It would give us tools, not weapons. Sure, we could use them as weapons, but they'd have a sense of function. You saw it before in the weapon classes, some weapons were the "right tool for the right job" depending on the circumstances. But make them more than that. Let us use them in more than one context than merely... bashing waves after waves of enemies with uninspiring tactics... yawn. I'm excited to see guns in the PSO2 trailer, because they've given them new use. New control. Akin to the way they gave us new control for melee battle back in PSU. I am excited to see how they give us new control over techniques. Something in the vein of FMA alchemy, where you manipulate your environment or the tide of battle. Beyond... heals and buffs. We have complex computer systems, I think we could find a cleverer way to use techniques beyond +5 armor.


So in case it's not clear, I do actually like this series. I loved PSO's beautiful environments and atmosphere, and its clever enemy tactics. I still have an extreme fondness for certain attacks in PSU, which were so satisfying to land on enemies. Koltova, my tasty little punching bags. And if anything, I hope that PSO2 is the best of both worlds. A variety of environments with interesting structure, enemies with tactics worth fighting, and player controls that really let us get expressive (and cooperative) in gameplay.

Now, go play some Spelunky. Learn to enjoy failing.
http://www.spelunkyworld.com/

[GreenArcher]

I've never played/heard of Spelunky nor have I watched that video, but I completely agree with your thoughts on failure. PSU was so much fun when mission rewards mattered (when money was scarce, and MP was important), and Scape Dolls were out of the question. Demons Above A? Took well over an hour unless you had a great party.

[Nitro Vordex]

So then make PSO2 absolutely nothing like anything in the rest of the series, and turn it into a game where you're pretty much just farmers with your pitchfork in weird places all the time. Sounds kinda bad. Some of the stuff you touched upon is already happening, such as randomized fields. Turning the weapons into tools just sounds stupid. We have the weapons for a reason, we're supposed to be fighting, not waving a stick at them and hoping they leave us alone. Perma death would be ridiculous, as that could probably open up a whole new level of griefing/trolling, not to mention pretty much the entirety of the community afraid of leaving their rooms in fear of losing all the work they put into their character. A penalty for dying, however, I can agree with, but there actually has to be a threat of dying first, since both PSO and PSU had a point where there was nothing to worry about ever.

Now, having the weapons serve as another purpose I can understand. Maybe have a Ranger shoot some kind of target or overhang to get the party to proceed to the next area, or have a Hunter attempt to slash open the hatch of a ship, while the rest of the party covers him. Stuff like that would demand teamwork AND utilize your abilities. If that's what you mean, then yes, I don't see a problem with that.

I need levels though, it's a measure of how closely powerful and useful a character is in relation to your character.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

So then make PSO2 absolutely nothing like anything in the rest of the series, and turn it into a game where you're pretty much just farmers with your pitchfork in weird places all the time. Sounds kinda bad. Some of the stuff you touched upon is already happening, such as randomized fields. Turning the weapons into tools just sounds stupid. We have the weapons for a reason, we're supposed to be fighting, not waving a stick at them and hoping they leave us alone. Perma death would be ridiculous, as that could probably open up a whole new level of griefing/trolling, not to mention pretty much the entirety of the community afraid of leaving their rooms in fear of losing all the work they put into their character. A penalty for dying, however, I can agree with, but there actually has to be a threat of dying first, since both PSO and PSU had a point where there was nothing to worry about ever.

Now, having the weapons serve as another purpose I can understand. Maybe have a Ranger shoot some kind of target or overhang to get the party to proceed to the next area, or have a Hunter attempt to slash open the hatch of a ship, while the rest of the party covers him. Stuff like that would demand teamwork AND utilize your abilities. If that's what you mean, then yes, I don't see a problem with that.

I need levels though, it's a measure of how closely powerful and useful a character is in relation to your character.

I think we see eye to eye more than you might think at first. Just hear me out okay?

C-mode is a pretty good example of a very prominent part of the series that is arguably better than the main game. C-mode style permadeath would be really fun. Structure the game like arcade style sessions, where you start from a preset equal footing and rapidly gain more abilities and face harsh danger. Whatever cool stuff you gained would be isolated to that session, and lost afterward. Basically, this means, the levels and loot you gained wasn't the point, you're after other goals, like having fun or overcoming a real challenge together with your friends. The point of this structure is that you don't have "fear of losing all the work they put into their character" because YOU and YOUR abilities are the work you put in.Not the superfluous levels and items that only represent how much time you sunk into Skinner Box reward structures. Sure you might lose the mission, but you can always try again. And trying again should be fun, because the random fields should keep the next experience fresh and new. However, like in C-mode, new gear and cool power ups would be dropped like water in each new session, giving you the taste of those cool powers each play session. That is... if you play well and stay alive. Think something like... Left for Dead, only with crazy anime fantasy action and way more random elements.

Tools are a conceptual way to dealing with player abilities. I don't mean, make a sword into a wrench, I mean give the player an ability that can be used in a right way and a wrong way. This is, actually already in effect, although I think it could be improved upon. I think you understand what I mean. New uses for player abilities, whatever they may be, can be found for combat, mobility, and exploration. You know, other types of gameplay (which PSO & PSU totally HAD, and would not be out of place) other than dungeon crawling and killing waves of enemies. You've already cited some examples of clever ways to do just that, and I think they are worth exploring. Like what if we could use our swords as platforms, like all those anime action heroes do. Or what if techniques could be used to increase player mobility, and restrict enemy mobility in a raw physical way. Like creating platforms and walls, or creating wind to let us glide jump over a large ravine.

I'm all for ramped up difficulty modes, but levels are just a pointless distraction that don't actually add anything to the gameplay except a compulsion to level. A compulsion to grind, and to farm. Think of a game without levels. Levels are not intrinsic to representing a players power within a game. Not even online games. Rankings and achievements can already do it better.

Levels are also game breaking. As players we're always searching for a way to "gain the system" and the "dominate strategy." Players are renowned for unintentionally ruining the fun of a game, to make it easier. Levels reward having fun fighting monsters... with less challenging monsters. Compare and contrast to having a separate difficulty mode (featured in both PSO and PSU) where the players can take on new challenges suitable to their abilities AS PLAYERS. Not their emulated abilities as characters.

Phantasy Star Portable 2 introduced a system that makes the monsters level with you to try and maintain balance. But... just exactly what is the point in that? Why not exclude levels all together and maintain a perfect balance in gameplay throughout the game? It really exemplifies how extraneous levels are.

Basically, if you wouldn't play PSO games if they didn't have level ups, you should reconsider playing them at all. Because levels are just blinding you to the fact that the gameplay wouldn't stand up on its own without baiting you into playing compulsively for the next level up.

Watch that video I linked, you'll understand where I'm coming from about my criticisms of level ups.

And finally I can't and don't WANT to make the game anything. The reason I'm posting here to possibly make some awareness about these ideas. I want to change the expectations of players, not change the game. I can not influence the development, especially not single single-handedly and egotistically. What I can do is disseminate ideas. Don't attack these ideas like they're some kind of personal affront to your ego, because they're not. I get you like PSO, and I do too. Please understand that criticism is experience for learning, not an attack. I really want to collaborate intellectually, not bait argument and pointless bickering.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Sorry, I'll play nethack when I want to play nethack.

[Zarode]

Sure, I'd love a Hardcore mode in PSO2, but I'd like to leave it as an option. The Internet as a whole is just a giant prick waiting to ruin your fun. I'd hate to solo for something you are suppose to work together with.

[Split]

Something tells me PSO2 won't be a rogue-like. It would be neat though...

[Eidolus_Dyne]

When Sakai said that he wanted an infinite adventure, and new surprise and discovery... I don't think that this could be achieved without borrowing from rogue-like game design principals. I'm sure we'll see some of them in action, and if it becomes a trend... more and more of them in subsequent releases. Phantasy Star has been rapidly becoming more and more action oriented. That is, giving the player more control. Gone are the days of dice roll misses, here is the advent of the dodge roll, manual block, and jumping. Mobility abilities will be given more light and consideration after jumping, just as jumping was preceded by dodge-roll. The gameplay is already much more different in terms of interfance and control compared to net-hack, but... rogue-like principals are proven successful models in action games. Spelunky is a great example. Not only are rogue-like rules more thrilling, but also more engaging and promote a wider array of interesting outcomes. Not to mention, make failure scenarios interesting. Basically, it's HOW you can achieve a failure state that's interesting.

@Zarode
I don't doubt we're going to see the return of c-mode in PSO2. So, ultimately I'll get my chance to play rogue-like PSO2. I just want to plant that little seed of doubt... maybe we don't need the compulsion of level ups and rare drops. Maybe a game like this could achieve that near endless re-playability without cheap tricks and psychological manipulation. Wouldn't that be cool?

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I think the way PSO did it was perfect. You've got the long-term play of your main character with leveling up and hunting some sweet booty, and you've also got challenge mode for when you want a more skill-based, errr, challenge with limited equipment and abilities.


There really isn't anything wrong with having leveling in a game like this. Removing rare hunting would completely retarded, since that is pretty much the heart and soul of this genre. They are both things that are necessary to hold the attention of the vast majority of players in the long term.

[Ark22]

Challenge mode is what separates the Great from the team workers

[Eidolus_Dyne]

I think the way PSO did it was perfect. You've got the long-term play of your main character with leveling up and hunting some sweet booty, and you've also got challenge mode for when you want a more skill-based, errr, challenge with limited equipment and abilities.


There really isn't anything wrong with having leveling in a game like this. Removing rare hunting would completely retarded, since that is pretty much the heart and soul of this genre. They are both things that are necessary to hold the attention of the vast majority of players in the long term.

I rather enjoyed that balance too... up to a point.

That makes me curious though. Saying that rare hunting is endemic to this genre... well, one, why? and two, what genre?

Looking at that trailer in high res, the action reminds me of Devil May Cry. A game where you unlock all the weapons in one play through, and max all your abilities to hit a standardized plateau for the rest of the game. Accruing new abilities was over quick, but not painlessly. You had to overcome real gameplay challenges to get them.

The cooperative combat reminds me more of Left 4 Dead or a cooperative brawler like Streets of Rage than any so-called "RPG" I've ever played. And there's what... a second tier of guns in L4D, not TIERS UPON TIERS of weapons that barely do anything mechanically different from the last tier. SoR has special items, but they're temporary power ups that don't last longer than a stage.

I believe that PSO2 is the step towards the future, because if PSO was complete the way it was... well, we wouldn't have PSU, PSZ, PS:P2 and so on. If we can get dodge roll, blocking, and jumping... I fully support PSO2 overcoming its identity crisis, and becoming a full fledged action game, instead of dividing its interest by trying to borrow game mechanics from something its not. Levels and Rare drops are a mechanic borne of an older time, when games were limited.

Can you imagine an evolved game mechanic beyond rare hunting? Something compatible with the gameplay that would be more fun, but more than that, more interesting and engaging?

PSU introduced synthing, so lets go from there. It's pretty well acknowledged that PSU's implementation was godawful, but let's use our creativity and imagine something... better. Finding materials to create a unique piece of equipment would be pretty cool. Especially if it wasn't just... slightly better than the last weapon you had. But rather, unique with its own balance of effects. Of course, unique looks too. That's a must. Some degree of powering up can be nice, but it'd be better if it topped off quickly, rather than dragging on and on.

This way you could customize your own weapons, tailored to your playstyle, the same way most of us sunk hours into character customization. Which, I think is way more fundamental and endemic to this series than rare hunting. Customization and player expression that creates unique results? Yeah, better than an evil gumball machine that eats your time and drains all the fun out of things. Because when was the last time you got excited to rare hunt? Rare hunting isn't fun, interesting, or in anyway engaging. It sure the hell is compelling, the same way gambling is compelling.

There are plenty of other reasons to play a game beyond compulsion. If you wouldn't play PSO games without the compulsion to rare hunt, then you should reconsider playing them at all.

[Ishia]

But in order to synthesize rares, you must first find rares. Hunting rares is essential to the Phantasy Star series because without it, what the hell are you going to do?

[Eidolus_Dyne]

Finding synthing materials wouldn't need to be arduous. They wouldn't have to be rare tiered the way they were in PSU. Especially if the stuff you could synth wasn't power-level tiered. So instead of incrementally bigger and bigger numbers, you'd find items to build a custom weapon that's not inherently better, but better for your play style. The items themselves could be incredibly common, and it would be a matter of how you combined them that mattered.

Take away a system that rewards time sinking, and give a system that rewards player creativity.

But you're saying you wouldn't play the game without rare hunting? That its rare hunting you want to do, and fighting monsters is just an ends to a means to sink time tokens into a gumball machine that dispenses random rewards?

That's just a bad rumor, I wouldn't believe it if I were you.

If L4D can survive as a fully replayable experience with unique outcomes and a fun challenge, without rare hunting, then so can PSO2. Rare hunting is like a bad habit started by games that have no mechanical relationship to PSO anymore. Leave the rare hunts in the past with Ever Quest and World of Warcraft. We should expect a better game than these.

Watch this video.


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box It goes in depth on alternatives to game mechanics that motivate players through compulsion, alternatives that make a game engaging instead. Watch and understand. Levels and rares have been a bad habit. Think critically and creatively and you can think of alternatives too.

Hell, what if we had an upgrade system that worked like Cave Story's guns? You know, how you level them up (only a small small small number of levels, Cave Story only had 3) rather quickly by playing well and not taking damage, and level down when you take damage. We wouldn't even need rare drops, because powered up gear would be a reward for playing well over a short span of time.

[Ishia]

If L4D can survive as a fully replayable experience with unique outcomes and a fun challenge, without rare hunting, then so can PSO2.

What? L4D is a FPS, PSO2 is an online RPG. Terrible analogy.

[Zarode]

You are listing things in PSU that people severely dislike here and want to see gone forever in future Phantasy Star games...

Just a fair warning. This isn't evolution, these are steps in the wrong direction.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

How do you mean Zarode?

...Synthing? Yeah, that was pretty bad in PSU.

But I believe in design as an ideology. There is a bad way to design a concept and a good way. Just because a concept is executed through a bad design, doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Synthesizing equipment could be a really fun and creative system. In PSU it was stiff and severely limited, not to mention questionably rewarding.

What else did I say that everyone else is in disagreement with?

I actually don't frequent these forums, or forums in general. So I'm not sure what the rest of the population who appreciates this series is like, or what they prefer.

@Ishia
First person shooting / melee (L4D2 has melee weapons) isn't all THAT different than third person. It's a fundamental change, but it's just a camera position. Especially considering all this third person shooting and "hybrid action" stuff. PSO2 looks more like DMC than the original PSO, and I really couldn't be happier with the change.

You call PSO an RPG... and I agree that customizable avatars facilitates role playing, but I think that the so-called RPG game play mechanics that PSO has used are actually counter intuitive to anything close to actual role playing. Unless playing the role of an addict compulsively hunting rares for hours straight is the only role you want to play. These mechanics don't even compel players to role play as the characters in the context of the story. They are the most out of place systems in the game. In both the story context, and the gameplay... which is rapidly out pacing these dated systems.

[Dongra]

PSO has always been about grinding and rare hunting. If PSO2 played the same way L4D did then I would probably play it as often as I do that, one day every few weeks. This "Skinner Box" theory has always worked for RPG's and I don't really see grinding and hunting ever really being abolished in them. If you don't like the way the game is designed around this theory then you can always play another game. Personally, I like the random reward system, and I do realize my time spent on PSO and PSU was wasted time but I still enjoyed it. When I finally realize that I'm bored with the game, which I did with PSU and still occasionally do with PSO, naturally I'll stop playing it for a while. I suppose some people don't have enough self control to drop something if they don't enjoy it, but that's their own problem. I guess it really comes down to your perception of what an action RPG should be so naturally there will be disagreements. By the way, I feel I should add that I cannot stand the way the guy in that video presents himself on a podium to allude that what he is saying is fact.

[Seth Astra]

Although your arguements do make sense for many games, they are completely unsuited for an online RPG (which the PSO series is. I assume calling the genre "RPG" comes from the early console RPGs being similar in some respects to tabletop RPGs.). Even more so when you look at it from a developer's standpoint. I can only think of three games in which I've spent close to as much time as in a PS game. Samurai Warriors 3 (Which is actually part RPG, if only vaguely), Dissidia Final Fantasy (has heavy level grinding, so it's a moot point here) and SSBB. Both SSBB and SW3 these games have massive amounts of content, and I find the odds of PSO2 reaching this unlikely. Besides, for a really dedicated player, this much playtime could be reached in a few months. Unless Sega keeps up a constant stream of new content (which would be pretty hard), it'd be hard to keep people playing for years. Which means fewer people paying monthly fees. Which means less money for the devs. Which they wouldn't want, obviously. Of the two games above, the SSBB model would be the more likely (Samurai Warriors keeps going with the 2 dozen+ storylines, each taking several hours to complete), with minor unlockables given as an incentive to clears a lot of stuff.

Point is, it's hard to keep people playing a game just by being "fun." There has to be some end goal to keep serious gamers onboard for long amounts of time. In level-grind + lootfest games (like PS), the goal is the equipment and levels.

On your point regarding permadeath, I don't mind it (much) in games like nethack. However, let's apply that to any traditional PS game... "YES!!! I reached (level cap)!!! It took me months, but I've done it!!! Let's go for a celebratory run!!! *Dies* NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR!?" There. With quoting of Zero included.


Finally, and most significantly:

Sorry, I'll play nethack when I want to play nethack.

I agree. Must be some weird planetary alignment thing for me to agree with Ffuzzy.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

Back when I played PSU compulsively it was my friends that kept me in the ring, from deciding to put the game down. "Come play with us Dyne, forever and ever and ever..." Like those creepy twins from The Shining.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8f_HaRxRbA

But when the PC/PS2 server went down we kept hanging out, and we branched out to other games. We didn't all find ourselves in one online game, but we all played more than one. Some L4D, Magicka, PSZ, PS:P2, and Minecraft (Survival Multiplayer) to name a few. Not to mention single player experiences. We don't need one game to monopolize our time anymore. It'll be fun to have a game where we can all meet up once again, but it's not going to be the end all be all gaming experience. Neither can it, nor should it try.

@Seth Astra

Permadeath would necessitate different rewards. Like I said before, there'd be no way to lose months worth of accrued rewards. Under this system you wouldn't save and hoard stuff, outside of achievements and aesthetic rewards. Upgraded equipment would be a very temporary affair, like equipment in Magicka or C-mode PSO. But maybe they could make weaponry and gear a function of aesthetic customization. Like the difference between clothes and armor. You could unlock looking like a badass, and wear it regardless of your status in the actual game sessions. Basically, the game would focus more on player choice, and become deeper and more mature as a result.

Or just as good, instead of permadeath. Don't include massive tiers of gear that don't add to the experience of the game. It'd be awesome if each new rarity star on a weapon meant you got a fresh experience. But that really couldn't be further from the truth. Instead, create a system of gear that opens the door to player expression. Create your own weapons that are rebalanced to your play style? Yes please! "Drastic item synthesis overhaul"

Not to mention, you can't have reward without risk. It's a shallow and meaningless party. For example, I don't remember rare drops. But I do remember when myself and another guy beat Olga Flow in C-mode with like a hit% handgun, on our last monomate, and on my first try. I'm damn good at that game, and not because I got strong gear to make the game easier. That's rewarding. Rare drops and a high level character? Who cares?

@Dongra

The Podium is more of a speaker thing, it supports the theme of the video series. Extra Credits. It's about learning. What he said in the video was definitely an op-ed, but he was right on the money with this, not only citing the psychology behind it (which IS factual), but discussing many of the alternative methods to hold player interest. Alternatives that don't revolve around an exploit of behavioral psychology.

The key to creating a replayable game is not in tricking players into playing after the game has stopped holding their interest. Certainly, this system works. WoW is reigning king of this. If you go the other route, the route that doesn't compete with an unbreakable behemoth with an army of slaves shelling out for their own indentured status. You would use Rogue-like game design principals and more opportunities for player creative and expressive input. Like somewhere in between Spelunky and Little Big Planet, but with that sweet action and thematic setting demo'd in the PSO2 video.

The video also gives some criteria for where good uses of RPG mechanics can be used. But PSO has never used them in this way. It's just about the furthest thing from games like Deus Ex you can possibly imagine.

Criticisms of poor uses of RPG mechanics that artificially lengthen play time well beyond the natural limit of a players interest are fair. This game is not intrinsically this way, likewise we distinguish behavior from a persons identity because we can always choose to behave differently. PSO could still be itself, without relying on RPG training wheels. Not only that, each game is throwing off more and more crutches, standing strong on action game mechanics.

[Dongra]

Rare drops and a high level character? Who cares?
I would think the majority of the people that play these games would.


PSO could still be itself, without relying on RPG training wheels.
This is true regarding the bare bones aspect of PSO which is what challenge mode runs off of. I think what you are proposing is too much of a drastic change for this series. It works for some games, especially those you mentioned, but for this game, and the community associated with it, it would be best to follow the formula that has mostly worked so far. To me, PSO has always been about completing goals that range from simple to near impossible. Rank and achievements have never been good motivators for me in gaming. I can stand achievements, but I only every complete the ones that seem interesting and fun, are easy, or have an in game reward like the boosts from Mass Effect or items from TF2. Anyway, we will never really come to an agreement in this discussion. We want different things from the game that match our own taste. I don't really have anything to add, so I'll let you continue on with your topic.

[Eidolus_Dyne]

This is true regarding the bare bones aspect of PSO which is what challenge mode runs off of. I think what you are proposing is too much of a drastic change for this series. It works for some games, especially those you mentioned, but for this game, and the community associated with it, it would be best to follow the formula that has mostly worked so far. To me, PSO has always been about completing goals that range from simple to near impossible. Rank and achievements have never been good motivators for me in gaming. I can stand achievements, but I only every complete the ones that seem interesting and fun, are easy, or have an in game reward like the boosts from Mass Effect or items from TF2. Anyway, we will never really come to an agreement in this discussion. We want different things from the game that match our own taste. I don't really have anything to add, so I'll let you continue on with your topic.

Actually I think stumbled onto some of a few things I wasn't taking into account. And found myself squarely in a middle ground. A place where I could tolerate levels and drops if they are balanced properly.

Levels and rare drops do actually facilitate some amount of role playing among players. In a general sense they create a sense of seniority. Which is an aspect of roles. Rare items also help give players a unique look, since by their function, not everyone will have them necessarily.

But while seniority is novel, levels also function to divide the player base. Which is something that seriously hurt the PC/PS2 PSU servers. While the lack of updates and content was the fatal blow, level gaps bled the player base to death.

To solve this, I feel like without resorting to axing levels all together you'd have to introduce a system like The World Ends With You. In this system, you could level yourself down to increase the difficulty and increase drop rates. This would also double as a security against level gaps between players. Letting themselves play at a lower level with other lower level characters. This way rares would still be unique, but if you were a good player you could curb the grind by relying on your skills more.

It's not my ideal, but I wouldn't complain if there was also a C-mode.

Of course, statistical differences between player characters and enemies is a cheap way to create difficulty. I still expect PSO2 to come up with enemies with scalable AI and new tactics at higher levels.

And this discussion isn't about changing the game. How could it possibly? It's about changing our expectations. As game designs are explored further, even if PSO isn't the series to do it... I want to see an adventure oriented action game without levels.