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View Full Version : Can bigger environments really provide for exciting action?



Kamica
Apr 30, 2011, 09:37 PM
It seems from the PSO2 gameplay trailer that the environments are getting excessively huge. I feel that this was a major that I did not enjoy episode 4 and PSU. Smaller rooms can provide for faster paced action because enemies can attack from all corners in closed quarters. Bigger rooms split the action into smaller chunks, effectively reducing the pace of the action.

What do you guys think? Do you see promise in bigger environments?

Pillan
Apr 30, 2011, 09:39 PM
Looking at the map in the screen shots and the video, the actual battlefield appears to be much, much smaller than the visual representation.

But, personally, I like smaller rooms with enemies surrounding me. The only problem with that would be that it kills the main reason to play Ranger.

Corey Blue
Apr 30, 2011, 09:40 PM
Randomly generated environments yes.I don't see it being split into area's like floor or floor two or whatever,but I dunno.

•Col•
Apr 30, 2011, 09:43 PM
When did they say they were going to be big...? The above poster is right, the environments look bigger than they actually are. It's because the enemies come out of the background areas, which are unaccessible to the players. Seeing them come out of the forests or over the fields or whatever is a lot cooler than them just popping out of the ground, in my opinion.

It's pretty awesome to be able to see the waves of enemies coming toward you...

Shinji Kazuya
Apr 30, 2011, 09:45 PM
I like the bigger environments I'm seeing on the video. You may be right with the smaller rooms faster paced action thing but it doesn't look like that for me so far. Jump, dash, sprint actions make the action much more faster even in bigger environments and from the looks of the video it seems the enemies come at us in the size of almost an army. Again this is all speculation from a very earlier video, we'll see how it will be in the final version.

Kamica
Apr 30, 2011, 09:46 PM
@Pillan Hmm. That's a decent point. Perhaps the environments are not going to end up being as big as Episode 4 after all. It's too early to tell from just the one area shown so far.

Shinji Kazuya
Apr 30, 2011, 09:56 PM
Hum like Pillan said, looking at the radar & map at the upper right corner, the areas are not that much bigger after all. Some parts are kinda big though. And there's the random map making too.

Kent
Apr 30, 2011, 10:04 PM
Considering that combat in general appears to be a lot more mobile than what we saw in PSO, I'd say it may not be as much of a problem.

That said, we can also look back at PSO and see that various areas do in fact have wide-open rooms in certain parts (such as the waterfall room in the Ruins, the room before the boss portal in Forest 2, that one oblong room on a platform over lava in Caves 1, many rooms in the Mines, etc.). These specific rooms, I would say, don't necessarily take away from the action or pacing of the game, but rather, provide a different tactical challenge than those of more compact rooms.

That is, you have to think a bit more about your approach to enemies... Or their approach to you. Case in point, dealing with Sinow Beats in a small room is a very different battle than dealing with them in an area in which they have more room to move around; they have more room for their jumps back in order to use their mirages or prepare a leaping attack, for instance, rather than just engaging in close-quarters most of the time. When they're first engaged, you have to worry about dodging a leaping attack in larger rooms, whereas smaller rooms will see them directly attacking you first.

Likewise with the Garanz - engaging them at a distance is perilous, at best, whereas in a small room you can just easily run circles around them until they kill themselves with their own missiles.

So no, I don't think the presence of large rooms will necessarily detract from gameplay. I do think it's entirely possible that these larger rooms were shown in the trailer with the intention of being able to more easily show off the faster-paced and more mobile combat gameplay of the game, though.

Randomly generated environments yes.I don't see it being split into area's like floor or floor two or whatever,but I dunno.
Why not? Areas segmented into floors/areas worked well for giving a "checkpoint" of sorts to players, so they wouldn't have to trek all the way through area 1 in order to get to where they died, should they do so without a telepipe down.

At the same time, it nicely chunks the data the game has to manage into individual segments, preventing a single area from sprawling too much.

Don't get me wrong - I like the potential this game has for dungeon crawling into infinity, if they just let you keep going in a given area after beating "the boss." Just having designated break points and checkpoint areas is good for players, regardless of the potential for telepipes. When players get to the next floor of a dungeon, they feel accomplished (which comes with a feeling of refreshment, to many players), rather than feeling like the area is just sprawling into forever, and all you're doing is getting further and further lost in it.

Kyrith_Ranger_Pso
Apr 30, 2011, 10:18 PM
It seems from the PSO2 gameplay trailer that the environments are getting excessively huge. I feel that this was a major that I did not enjoy episode 4



That's actually the reason i really loved episode 4, larger areas made it feel more adventurous and I'm hoping that returns in PSO2

AzureBlaze
Apr 30, 2011, 11:18 PM
Yes, I DO think large environments CAN provide action & fun.
BUT
They have to do it in a smart way.
Some of the huge areas on psu got dull because your guy was so slow, or the monsters would just run away and act stupid/random. Chasing things around because someone did blowback vs lapucha was no good either. Or chasing the digging Neudaiz worms around the whole thing. Big areas in mines (as mentioned here) in PSO didn't feel so dull because sinows or garanz were coming at you and they wouldn't just flee to the edge of the board and walk into the wall like psu.

You can make big areas fun by making the people go faster. It looks big, it feels big, but you're so fast, it's not boring to go from pt A to pt B.
Smart enemy AI thats also fun (not boring like digging worms) where they're actually pretty aggressive brings the fight to you no-matter room size.
Adding 'features' to rooms like the various jump-able areas or possibly hidden things or gimmicks can spice it up (face it, ppl will be doing 'runs' and enter these areas a lot) Plus, the cut-in events should add action.

Also to keep in mind...
Anyone's only ever seen a single area of the game. HOPEfully they vary the areas too. From more open forest lands to clausterphobic tunnels in some secret base or ship! Maybe midsize rooms and hallways in a cave, or a beach with odd layouts and monsters in the water. Area variety size wise/terrain wise is also a great way to keep things entertaining. Replay value to ALL places must be really high on a game like this.

Three elements must combine: environment interesting-ness, the people's ability to navigate it, and what the monsters can do in the environment/interactions to make things fun. If any of them drops the ball, it lessens the experience. So far in the video though, the people seem much faster than ever before, the place looks to be an "ok size", and the monsters didn't act poorly. (but, hard to judge on something so short) I would still say 'looking up!'

NoiseHERO
Apr 30, 2011, 11:21 PM
As long as I'm not stuck in a hallway a whole mission, or spending half the mission running to the other side of the room when all the enemies are dead, then I don't care about room size.

moorebounce
Apr 30, 2011, 11:31 PM
That's actually the reason i really loved episode 4, larger areas made it feel more adventurous and I'm hoping that returns in PSO2

Yeah Episode IV was a nice change compared to I and II. I think they will have large open areas as well as small closed areas. The adventure will come from the areas being randomly generated too.

Kamica
May 1, 2011, 12:27 AM
That said, we can also look back at PSO and see that various areas do in fact have wide-open rooms in certain parts (such as the waterfall room in the Ruins, the room before the boss portal in Forest 2, that one oblong room on a platform over lava in Caves 1, many rooms in the Mines, etc.). These specific rooms, I would say, don't necessarily take away from the action or pacing of the game, but rather, provide a different tactical challenge than those of more compact rooms.



The thing about big rooms in PSO is that they tended to be wildly more challenging than the rest of the rooms. I think large rooms can be fun but only if they are used sparingly. The amount of rooms in PSO episode 1 & 2 that were longer than 1.5 times the range of a rifle were almost nonexistent.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 02:19 AM
As long as the combat is not spread to thin larger areas shouldn't be a problem considering it seems you can now also sprint.

Corey Blue
May 1, 2011, 02:48 AM
Considering that combat in general appears to be a lot more mobile than what we saw in PSO, I'd say it may not be as much of a problem.

That said, we can also look back at PSO and see that various areas do in fact have wide-open rooms in certain parts (such as the waterfall room in the Ruins, the room before the boss portal in Forest 2, that one oblong room on a platform over lava in Caves 1, many rooms in the Mines, etc.). These specific rooms, I would say, don't necessarily take away from the action or pacing of the game, but rather, provide a different tactical challenge than those of more compact rooms.

That is, you have to think a bit more about your approach to enemies... Or their approach to you. Case in point, dealing with Sinow Beats in a small room is a very different battle than dealing with them in an area in which they have more room to move around; they have more room for their jumps back in order to use their mirages or prepare a leaping attack, for instance, rather than just engaging in close-quarters most of the time. When they're first engaged, you have to worry about dodging a leaping attack in larger rooms, whereas smaller rooms will see them directly attacking you first.

Likewise with the Garanz - engaging them at a distance is perilous, at best, whereas in a small room you can just easily run circles around them until they kill themselves with their own missiles.

So no, I don't think the presence of large rooms will necessarily detract from gameplay. I do think it's entirely possible that these larger rooms were shown in the trailer with the intention of being able to more easily show off the faster-paced and more mobile combat gameplay of the game, though.

Why not? Areas segmented into floors/areas worked well for giving a "checkpoint" of sorts to players, so they wouldn't have to trek all the way through area 1 in order to get to where they died, should they do so without a telepipe down.

At the same time, it nicely chunks the data the game has to manage into individual segments, preventing a single area from sprawling too much.

Don't get me wrong - I like the potential this game has for dungeon crawling into infinity, if they just let you keep going in a given area after beating "the boss." Just having designated break points and checkpoint areas is good for players, regardless of the potential for telepipes. When players get to the next floor of a dungeon, they feel accomplished (which comes with a feeling of refreshment, to many players), rather than feeling like the area is just sprawling into forever, and all you're doing is getting further and further lost in it.

Yeah your right we don't really need really big open area's,so yeah splitting the area's would be fine with me.(So whatever they do I'm ok with it.)

Malachite
May 1, 2011, 02:49 AM
Large areas > Small areas.

If you're worried about the gameplay not being exciting enough... did you actually watch the video? Lol, it's far more "exciting" than PSO or PSU.

NoiseHERO
May 1, 2011, 02:52 AM
Large areas > Small areas.

If you're worried about the gameplay not being exciting enough... did you actually watch the video? Lol, it's far more "exciting" than PSO or PSU.

You never know, It may be looking WAY too far ahead...

But a giant empty room with nothing in it won't look like a playground when you've been playing the game for longer than 2 years...D:

Of course that'd be more of a PSU-like problem, since this game's missions so far seem to have way better scenery in missions and it looks like they know what they're doing with the level design again...

Corey Blue
May 1, 2011, 02:57 AM
Large areas > Small areas.

If you're worried about the gameplay not being exciting enough... did you actually watch the video? Lol, it's far more "exciting" than PSO or PSU.
I cant see people falling asleep on this one.

NoiseHERO
May 1, 2011, 03:01 AM
I used to play PSU with one hand and half of one eye open every night, before I went to sleep and would open my eyes and 5 minutes passed by and I'm in an empty room unharmed while my friends would be waiting at the boss portal or killing the boss.

edit:NB4 fapping jokes

Corey Blue
May 1, 2011, 03:04 AM
I used to play PSU with one hand and half of one eye open every night, before I went to sleep and would open my eyes and 5 minutes passed by and I'm in an empty room unharmed while my friends would be waiting at the boss portal or killing the boss.

edit:NB4 fapping jokes

LOL yeah it was THAT easy sometimes.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 03:16 AM
I used to play PSU with one hand and half of one eye open every night, before I went to sleep and would open my eyes and 5 minutes passed by and I'm in an empty room unharmed while my friends would be waiting at the boss portal or killing the boss.

edit:NB4 fapping jokes

Insert generic fapping joke

Tetsaru
May 1, 2011, 03:30 AM
I'd like to see larger environments, preferably actual explorable world maps for each planet, instead of PSU's "go to planet, end up in single specific town with NPC shops, go do missions and end up in pretty yet extraneous and pointless lobbies."

If PSO2 did implement actual world maps comparable to FF11/FF14/Oblivion-size maps (which would be cool, considering how we'll be able to jump now), there should TONS of exploration, free-roaming/random enemies, hidden items, and entrances to towns/dungeons where all the instanced stuff could take place and parties could gather.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 03:33 AM
In regard to exploring cities PSO always made me long to explore the starting city on pioneer 2. I would love to have a future city to play around with.

NoiseHERO
May 1, 2011, 03:34 AM
Insert generic fapping joke

Pfft. you guys are all immature idiots! ;A;

Dongra
May 1, 2011, 03:38 AM
In regard to exploring cities PSO always made me long to explore the starting city on pioneer 2. I would love to have a future city to play around with.
This thought has also crossed my mind when looking into the background of Pioneer 2.

Vashyron
May 1, 2011, 03:38 AM
On environments, I'd actually like to see some interactive environment stuff, such as cutting a tree down, perhaps pushing a boulder, blowing away some rubble to reveal something and such. (No, no nonsensical goggle scan beforehand.)

Though on topic, I prefer open spaces much more, but the smaller areas are fine with me.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 03:44 AM
On environments, I'd actually like to see some interactive environment stuff, such as cutting a tree down, perhaps pushing a boulder, blowing away some rubble to reveal something and such. (No, no nonsensical goggle scan beforehand.)

Though on topic, I prefer open spaces much more, but the smaller areas are fine with me.

I agree with this and if that would be the case I would also enjoy seeing at least some form of destructible environment such as trees being knocked over/broken, etc.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 03:53 AM
The only problem with making things into fully explorable world is, assuming you mean that we'd see random people in combat and were affected by their actions: That would turn the game into a full on MMO and I've always liked the MMO but not an MMO feel of the PSO/PSU games. Less opportunities for trolling and the like.

If you still have 4 man parties separated from everyone else and can run around a full planet, then it just becomes a gimmick.

I suppose being able to free roam where you could run around and explore with no parties or objectives while still having instance-based missions would be a good way to do it.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 04:04 AM
If they are leaning towards that kind of idea I'd rather take open ended over multiple lobbies. It seemed like they wanted something to that effect in PSU but were just unsure of how to go about it.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 04:10 AM
oh i agree multiple lobbies was a terrible idea. i just hate the idea of wandering around with no real aim, and being forced to play with a ton of people that have their own agenda which may or may not be to ruin your experience.

You played PSO. You know about the people that would enter rooms just to take your things, delete your data, or corrupt your profile. I feel like free roaming with no alternatives would just lend itself to that. combine with the kind of ridiculous cut in spamming we saw in PSU and I'd like an option to be able to be around people who aren't going to make me wish I hadn't signed on that day.

NoiseHERO
May 1, 2011, 04:12 AM
Actually now that I think about it, there was one sealab mission in PSU, where towards the ending it was just one huge room filled with muliple mobs of powerful monsters. (back before SEGA made the game too easy.)

I remember how fun it was with everyone getting smacked around like ragdolls and having to constantly save each other. Even though it was spread out, being a gruesome violent light saber moshpit of survival. Meanwhile struggling to stun lock monsters to death, before you got hit in the face with a megid out of left field, by a jarba.

Then when it finally ended, you had a bunch of EXP and a sense of badassary as you ran to the next room.

and yeah I'm not even gonna go into the PSO vs PSU vs PSNEW lobby thing, AGAIN...don't feel like thinking. @_@

Lyric
May 1, 2011, 04:15 AM
Oh man...between the symbol chat spamming, and then the cut-ins...they were fun ideas, but man there were times where I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle someone.

I guess I'm indifferent on how the actual exploration is handled. Either way I just end up playing with a group of friends anyway.

Justyn_Darkcrest
May 1, 2011, 04:21 AM
From what we've seen, we probably aren't getting an open world system, since the game play footage showed what appeared to be the traditional style of a somewhat linear area.

I feel a nice balance between would be having bigger cities that we can explore and meet up with ppl, and for entering the map area, just have counters spread out that you can access, which will show all the groups playing in that particular area/planet. That should eliminate the problem PSU had of trying to find parties spread out over a large expanse.

This way, all the ppl that want to have more exploration get their wish and it still shouldn't alienate the fans of the "old" style too much.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 04:24 AM
oh i agree multiple lobbies was a terrible idea. i just hate the idea of wandering around with no real aim, and being forced to play with a ton of people that have their own agenda which may or may not be to ruin your experience.

You played PSO. You know about the people that would enter rooms just to take your things, delete your data, or corrupt your profile. I feel like free roaming with no alternatives would just lend itself to that. combine with the kind of ridiculous cut in spamming we saw in PSU and I'd like an option to be able to be around people who aren't going to make me wish I hadn't signed on that day.

I understand what you mean since I would rather not but subjected to trolling via phantasy star. Also It hadn't crossed my mind till now but if it truly was open ended I'd hope they planned ahead for the inevitable random group of "lul lets go kill steal" individuals.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 04:25 AM
yeah i don't care about how many lobbies we get as long as people can easily find each other and missions are more easy to access. I'm fine with there being say...one lobby per planet with a way of seeing how much activity is on any given planet separate from server numbers. I just want to be able to play with a group without people griefing us.

MidiPour
May 1, 2011, 04:29 AM
Are there any door accesses in the trailer? I didn't see any. If there are door accesses, I wonder if the enemies will go back into the environment when you leave the particular room. I think this is as crucial as how big the environments are, or whether there is linearity or an open-world.

FEI LEE
May 1, 2011, 04:31 AM
Thats true since I always found it funny how in PSO the enemies would just turn around like you weren't even there once you ran past a door. This was also abusable at times unfortunately.

NoiseHERO
May 1, 2011, 04:36 AM
Are there any door accesses in the trailer? I didn't see any. If there are door accesses, I wonder if the enemies will go back into the environment when you leave the particular room. I think this is as crucial as how big the environments are, or whether there is linearity or an open-world.

That would be sad...

Then again even in PSU the monsters would just disappear back to their spawn points...

But they promised to make the AI more advanced, and we've even seen it in action. (monkeys swinging into the scene, instead of just magically popping up like kingdomhearts monsters)

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 04:42 AM
that's got nothing to do with the AI, though

NoiseHERO
May 1, 2011, 04:45 AM
Not following you or disappearing, after you leave an area? If it controls the monster in anyway, it goes under the AI checklist to me.

Wayu
May 1, 2011, 05:32 AM
The HD trailer didn't show any large environment per se, but I'm thinking that we'll see a large-scale battle in a huge area some time during the story of PSO2.

That being said, I think that with the combat system shown so far, large areas will bring more dynamic gameplay, especially if humanoid enemies with guns appear.

Enemy snipers. o.0

-Wayu

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 05:41 AM
Not following you or disappearing, after you leave an area? If it controls the monster in anyway, it goes under the AI checklist to me.

No, that's merely a frill. Something to add to the detail. It has nothing to do with the behavior of the computer controlled characters.

Shadownami92
May 1, 2011, 05:53 AM
No, that's merely a frill. Something to add to the detail. It has nothing to do with the behavior of the computer controlled characters.

Actually them walking back does have to do with the behavior of the monsters, just like any action or movement of a NPC is. I don't know what you think a frill is, but creatures walking back to their spawn position is then an AI controlled frill.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 05:57 AM
Actually them walking back does have to do with the behavior of the monsters, just like any action or movement of a NPC is. I don't know what you think a frill is, but creatures walking back to their spawn position is then an AI controlled frill.

no he's talking about how they enter the map to begin with, akin to boomas popping out of the ground.

Shadownami92
May 1, 2011, 06:12 AM
no he's talking about how they enter the map to begin with, akin to boomas popping out of the ground.

I see, well in that sense I guess it depends on how they really implemented the monsters coming out of the trees that would determine whether it's an AI controlled event or not. Like, if the monsters are invisible while they swing from the trees I wouldn't probably consider it AI controlled. But if you can damage it and it reacts in some way I would consider it another form of movement from the monster and it would be another AI controlled action event much like walking, attacking or jumping.

Hrith
May 1, 2011, 06:20 AM
Like dwarves ;o

Anyway, I like big areas, the question is not whether or not the areas will be big, but whether or not they will be or feel empty. As long as they don't, everything will be fine. One of the rare elements of PSU I did not like was that you would spend on average 50% of the mission running (between rooms or across land), up to 80% in some really empty mission (low monster density). That needs to be fixed first and foremost, IMO, the game should keep running to a minimum.

Niloklives
May 1, 2011, 06:24 AM
I agree. That was something that irked me to no end.