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RedRaz0r
Jul 28, 2011, 12:41 PM
After a quick look through the new screens and video, I still have yet to see a beast. Am I missing them or are they still tentative to the game?

Zipzo
Jul 28, 2011, 12:42 PM
After a quick look through the new screens and video, I still have yet to see a beast. Am I missing them or are they still tentative to the game?No beasts.

NoiseHERO
Jul 28, 2011, 12:43 PM
They said they MIGHT add new races in later expansions though.

Zipzo
Jul 28, 2011, 12:44 PM
They said they MIGHT add new races in later expansions though.What other playable races exist aside from Beast that they could add though?

RedRaz0r
Jul 28, 2011, 12:45 PM
What other playable races exist aside from Beast that they could add though?

Dumans? Lol

Mracless
Jul 28, 2011, 01:01 PM
Perhaps our beasts are somewhere here.

http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/i0305884-1305053132.jpg

They have not said they might add new races in expansions.
Expansions have not been mentioned at all. Far too early for that.

Dumans would make no sense without the SEED.

NoiseHERO
Jul 28, 2011, 01:03 PM
I doubt you'll see beasts in there, in that huge new chunk of info in vash's thread they said for now, it's only 3 races.

Akaimizu
Jul 28, 2011, 01:03 PM
Motavians!!! (Sorry. Just had to throw that in there.)

Vashyron
Jul 28, 2011, 01:12 PM
Dumans would make no sense without the SEED.

Could make sense when we see this game's Dark monsters.

PSO D-Cell, PSU SEED, Whats the difference? :>

r00tabaga
Jul 28, 2011, 01:17 PM
Sakai said today that they could easily be added in.

Mracless
Jul 28, 2011, 01:18 PM
New races might appear between the alpha and the release of the full game.

The black and yellow figure in that blur looks like a hulking male beast to me.
Not quite as blocky or spikey or whatever else as Casts.
Looks like a steroid-pumped fleshy sporting some funky knee protection.
But it could be one of the existing races.

Oh well, I'm hoping I can create my female beast main again, but I'm already resigning myself to have to remake her with one of the current races. T_T

BEAST WOMEN ARE THE BEST!

NoiseHERO
Jul 28, 2011, 01:18 PM
Could make sense when we see this game's Dark monsters.

PSO D-Cell, PSU SEED, Whats the difference? :>

None, they all come from Dark Falz crack.

But I can definitely live without dumans or "lol half evil I have 9tailed fox powers yay" races

Hotobu
Jul 28, 2011, 01:21 PM
Where are the beasts? Still in PSU.

Seriously though they'll have to think really hard before adding more races. PSO was fairly balanced. There were some classes that didn't make a lot of sense in terms of optimal stats (FOmars, RAmars, and RAcaseals off the top of my head), but they weren't too terrible. Beasts though seemed to make humans obsolete.

Blueblur
Jul 28, 2011, 09:45 PM
BEAST WOMEN ARE THE BEST!Why? CUz they have different ears and noses?

Cinnamon Roll
Jul 28, 2011, 09:48 PM
I'm hoping they're added at some point. *hides*

Mracless
Jul 28, 2011, 09:48 PM
Why? CUz they have different ears and noses?

Yes, sir. That is exactly why.

Blueblur
Jul 28, 2011, 09:49 PM
Yes, sir. That is exactly why.
My point is that they're practically identical to the other female races. :P

ShadowDragon28
Jul 28, 2011, 09:53 PM
I could not care less about Beasts. But PS IV style Motavians and Dezorians would make this classic Phatasy Star series fan have a joygasm...

Mracless
Jul 28, 2011, 09:53 PM
Yeah, I know you were trying to make that point.

But you know the way cats and dogs get annoyed when you touch or blow into their ears!
That reaction on a woman is so cute!

And yes, I am that strange.

•Col•
Jul 28, 2011, 10:02 PM
My point is that they're practically identical to the other female races. :P

It's a joke from PSU:AotI. I can't really remember when or why, but Laia says "Beast women are the best".

Or something.

I dunno.

Cinnamon Roll
Jul 28, 2011, 10:03 PM
I know that scene...

Mracless
Jul 28, 2011, 10:05 PM
Yes, the Vol Brothers insult Laia for being a beast, then you beat them up and she forces them to say "Beast women are the best."

Cinnamon Roll
Jul 28, 2011, 10:10 PM
I LOL'd at that scene...

ShinMaruku
Jul 28, 2011, 10:13 PM
My point is that they're practically identical to the other female races. :P

Of course they are all human just modified. :E

Vashyron
Jul 28, 2011, 10:13 PM
BEAST WOMEN ARE THE BEST!

Beast Women are Filthy.

Skye-Fox713
Jul 28, 2011, 10:14 PM
Right now it looks like Human, Newman and Casts are confirmed so far.

However...(from http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189534 )


Races
* There are three races, however...
* Sakai says, "this is an online game, after all, so we could always decide to increase that number."

Corey Blue
Jul 28, 2011, 10:17 PM
The only race I would want to see is beast if they do add them,anymore would be to much.(Oh and beast need tails.)

RedRaz0r
Jul 28, 2011, 10:28 PM
Right now it looks like Human, Newman and Casts are confirmed so far.

However...(from http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189534 )
That thread most definitely did not exist when i made this thread. lol

Ecchi
Jul 28, 2011, 10:53 PM
Add aliens! Ohwait there already there ;o

BIG OLAF
Jul 28, 2011, 11:26 PM
Beast Women are Filthy.

You got that right. ;-)

•Col•
Jul 28, 2011, 11:29 PM
You got that right. ;-)

I was waiting for someone to make that joke.

BIG OLAF
Jul 28, 2011, 11:40 PM
I was waiting for someone to make that joke.

Glad I could help. ^^

Sord
Jul 28, 2011, 11:49 PM
No beasts, no problem. Not that I would be disappointed if they came back, but I really don't miss them in the least.

Strider_M
Jul 28, 2011, 11:55 PM
Beasts will be back. They'll be able to Nanoblast as well.

At that point The SUV system will be in place so Casts can use that effect.

Neumans will rediscover how to Summon ala PSO

And Humans...... uhhh.... Did Humans do something special in the PSP version? I always wanted them to like.... OVERCLOCK their weapons or something. But I didn't follow it past AotI....


..........whatever happened to Ethan Waber and everybody!? Geez!? Anyone can point me to a thread or a site that can tell me the story of the PSP games?

Malachite
Jul 28, 2011, 11:59 PM
Beasts will be back. They'll be able to Nanoblast as well.

At that point The SUV system will be in place so Casts can use that effect.


What in the world makes you say that with such certainy? There's no mention of them, whatsoever as of yet.

And Ethan Waber? Wth? These are two completely different Phantasy Star games. Is PSU the only PS game you've ever played? lol

Mike
Jul 29, 2011, 12:00 AM
Neumans will rediscover how to Summon ala PSO
What?


..........whatever happened to Ethan Waber and everybody!? Geez!? Anyone can point me to a thread or a site that can tell me the story of the PSP games?
They live in a different universe. Probably. We don't have much of a back story.

EDIT: The back story we do have only mentions human, newman, and cast as the races that constructed the Oracle (or however it's spelled) fleet.

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 12:07 AM
Numans/Newmens whatever, better not just be space elves good only at Techs, they better be alot more like how they were in PSO, great accuracy and agility and decent at attack. More like NEI and Nei First of the classic Ps series, not generic space elves in frakkin' kimonos! :/

Corey Blue
Jul 29, 2011, 12:21 AM
I can do without the kimonos lmao.

Dongra
Jul 29, 2011, 02:49 AM
they better be alot more like how they were in PSO, great accuracy and agility and decent at attack. :/They were only ever good for techs in PSO too. In fact, they never really excelled in accuracy, agility, or attack, especially attack.

Jade DaBain
Jul 29, 2011, 02:51 AM
They were only ever good for techs in PSO too. Also, they never really excelled in accuracy, agility, or attack, especially attack.

I play as a HUnewearl in PSO and my character was awesome in attacking.

Dongra
Jul 29, 2011, 02:56 AM
HUnewearl is a great attacker if you don't take into account how much better HUcast, HUmar, HUcaseal, RAmar, RAmarl, RAcast, and FOmar are at it.

Hotobu
Jul 29, 2011, 02:58 AM
I play as a HUnewearl in PSO and my character was awesome in attacking.

I hate it when people make replies like this. It's not like you were able to carefully and masterfully craft your character into some ATP fiend. When maxed every character's stats were fit to a hard cap. Your character wasn't "awesome at attacking" in the context being talked about here. On the contrary she sucked because she had the lowest ATP out of all of the Hunters (and I believe lower than RAcast of course there were different weapon sets but still) it's just that she happened to be good enough for you.

Niloklives
Jul 29, 2011, 03:15 AM
I'm glad someone else said it: enjoying your experience with your character does not mean your character has any advantages in terms of the actual game. Too many people like to confuse personal preference and limited experience with metagame. For what it's worth, I'm not trying to take away from someone's good time, but it's pretty ignorant to make a statement like "MY HUnewearl was amazing at melee combat" as though there was something unique about a cookie cutter character with very harsh limitations.

Strider_M
Jul 29, 2011, 07:41 AM
.........Ok....... I went off topic there in my last post, because I was tired but whatever.


What in the world makes you say that with such certainy? There's no mention of them, whatsoever as of yet.

And Ethan Waber? Wth? These are two completely different Phantasy Star games. Is PSU the only PS game you've ever played? lol

Those were my hopes for the expansion/updates of PSO2. As there are many people who want MAGs back, when the beasts in PSU could Nanoblast and Casts could use SUVs I wished that the Newmans/Humans could do the Summon thing everyone could do in PSO


What?

They live in a different universe. Probably. We don't have much of a back story.

EDIT: The back story we do have only mentions human, newman, and cast as the races that constructed the Oracle (or however it's spelled) fleet.

Right. Like I said I went off topic but I was really talking about what was the storyline of PSU in the PSP games. I'm sure that story continued after AotI right? I can't find a website that will tell me the storyline of it.


SO ANYWAY Basically I'm saying: Sorry! Went off topic in my first post... I hope Beasts w/Nanoblast gets added in later.

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 07:54 AM
Beast Women are Filthy.

I see what you did there. :p

"En"
Jul 29, 2011, 07:55 AM
I agree with Akaimizu and ShadowDragon. Show me a playable Motavian, and I'll show you a very happy camper.

Jade DaBain
Jul 29, 2011, 07:56 AM
I agree with Akaimizu and ShadowDragon. Show me a playable Motavian, and I'll show you a very happy camper.

But wouldnt that mean going back to the classic storyline? Ya know Sega will never do that.

"En"
Jul 29, 2011, 08:01 AM
It doesn't necessarily mean that they need to go back to the classic storyline. The race doesn't even need to be called "Motavian." In a similar way to how Newmans were brought into PSO and the other future installments, I don't see why Motavians couldn't be brought back.

Bringing Motavians into the equation could be just as easily done as bringing Beasts in. Rewrite their canon to compensate for a plot setting far away from where they originate from.


With this in mind, know that I'm not completely serious. The chance of seeing Motavians in PSO2 is a long shot from likelihood. If they were introduced, through unfathomable means, you wouldn't hear me complaining, however.

Jade DaBain
Jul 29, 2011, 08:03 AM
It doesn't necessarily mean that they need to go back to the classic storyline. The race doesn't even need to be called "Motavian." In a similar way to how Newmans were brought into PSO and the other future installments, I don't see why Motavians couldn't be brought back.

Bringing Motavians into the equation could be just as easily done as bringing Beasts in. Rewrite their canon to compensate for a plot setting far away from where they originate from.

Ya know, they should have had Motavians in PSU instead of Beasts.

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 08:10 AM
I hate it when people make replies like this. It's not like you were able to carefully and masterfully craft your character into some ATP fiend. When maxed every character's stats were fit to a hard cap. Your character wasn't "awesome at attacking" in the context being talked about here. On the contrary she sucked because she had the lowest ATP out of all of the Hunters (and I believe lower than RAcast of course there were different weapon sets but still) it's just that she happened to be good enough for you.

I believe the reason people make statements about "their" character is because they feel a bit of personal attachment to them, since the avatar they choose is a representation of them in the game. They want them to be powerful. That being said, couldn't Jade have buffed the attack with a mag, or materials (if the later existed; I have limited knowledge), so the character could have had a good attack for all we know.

*shrugs*

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 08:31 AM
yeah. Motavians are *cool*. I want to give them a Laeurma nut.. I wish.. so wish they were a race in PSO2.. inject some classic Phantasy Star into the game.

http://www.pscave.com/fanart/ps/nak/gryz.jpg

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 08:32 AM
yeah. Motavians are *cool*. I want to give them a Laeurma nut.. I wish.. so wish they were a race in PSO2.. inject some classic Phantasy Star into the game.

http://www.pscave.com/fanart/ps/nak/gryz.jpg

....Falco?

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 08:34 AM
No, motavians are not birds FYI.

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 08:35 AM
No, motavians are not birds FYI.

So....what are they, then? O.o

Jade DaBain
Jul 29, 2011, 08:39 AM
So....what are they, then? O.o

They are a race from a desert type planet. Sort of nomadic.

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 08:40 AM
Possibly mammalian, they have fur and are very very stong and sturdy. The race originally comes from the desert planet of Motavia in the Algol Star System in "Phantasy Star", "Phantasy Star II", and "Phantasy Star IV"...

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 08:40 AM
They are a race from a desert type planet. Sort of nomadic.

hmmm, I see...

But what is their design motiff? they look like birds, hence the Star Fox reference. O.o

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 08:44 AM
Motavias are *possibly loosely based off of alpaca but crossed with a gorilla.

http://www.kilblaanfarm.com/alpaca.jpg

Jade DaBain
Jul 29, 2011, 08:45 AM
Motavias are *possibly loosely based off of alpaca but crossed with a gorilla.

http://www.kilblaanfarm.com/alpaca.jpg

LOL! That would make one funny creature.

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 08:48 AM
Motavias are *possibly loosely based off of alpaca but crossed with a gorilla.

http://www.kilblaanfarm.com/alpaca.jpg

*cocks head* Ok, I can kinda see it....but....eh.....hmm......... Oi. ^^;

....still looks like an elderly Falco ro me. XD

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 08:50 AM
Falco doesn't have long ears or solid red eyes... :/

ShadowDragon28
Jul 29, 2011, 08:55 AM
See, Gryz. (aka Pike) here is a Motavian (from Phantasy Star IV), he has blue *fur*, half-length rabbit-like ears, and solid red eyes. He looks nothing like Falco.
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/9251/1107416-gryz_large.gif

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 08:56 AM
See, Gryz. (aka Pike) here is a Motavian (from Phantasy Star IV), he has blue *fur*, half-length rabbit-like ears, and solid red eyes. He looks nothing like Falco.
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/9251/1107416-gryz_large.gif

Ok, ok....sorry. It's what came to mind. ^^;

I still think what I said was funny and all. :D

Norco
Jul 29, 2011, 09:03 AM
Humans, Newmans, Casts, Beasts, Duman, Motavians and Dezolisians. Those are the races that appear in the phantasy star series. Maybe Beats will make a comeback maybe two of the "forgotten" races will make comeback xD

As for the the Starfox references. Motavians do have a beak as a mouth, am I right?

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 09:05 AM
Falco: Do a barrel roll!
Pepper: Hey! Thats my line!

*Falco takes out a gun and shoots Pepper*

PEPPY, NO!


Humans, Newmans, Casts, Beasts, Duman, Motavians and Dezolisians. Those are the races that appear in the phantasy star series. Maybe Beats will make a comeback maybe two of the "forgotten" races will make comeback xD

As for the the Starfox references. Motavians do have a beak as a mouth, am I right?

I'm glad I'm not the only one....^^

"En"
Jul 29, 2011, 09:09 AM
Motavians do have a beak as a mouth, am I right?

I had always thought this, too. Granted, it's 16-bit, so I could be mistaken, but I always thought it was an attempt to make them appear to have beaks, albeit short and stubby ones.

Jade DaBain
Jul 29, 2011, 09:10 AM
I had always thought this, too. Granted, it's 16-bit, so I could be mistaken, but I always thought it was an attempt to make them appear to have beaks, albeit short and stubby ones.

Like an owl.

Enforcer MKV
Jul 29, 2011, 11:23 AM
Like an owl.

who?

Oh, the Motavian. :D

Omega-z
Jul 30, 2011, 02:06 AM
actually Humans, Newmans/Nuemans, Casts, Beasts, Duman, Motavians, Dezolisians and Muskcats Those are the 8 playable races that appear in the phantasy star series.

Niloklives
Jul 30, 2011, 02:14 AM
PEPPY, NO!



I'm glad I'm not the only one....^^

I think she meant sergeant pepper

HUnewearl_Meira
Jul 30, 2011, 02:19 AM
Dumans would make no sense without the SEED.

Well, you might also say that Newmans make no sense without Motherbrain. If the race gets carried to another branch franchise, then they'll change the origin story.

Personally, like many others, I'd like to see Motavians and Dezolians make a comeback as playable races. I don't have much hope for that, though.

I don't really think we need a Beast race in PSO2, though I do have my hopes up that Newman Hunters will focus on speed and agility this time, instead of Tech prowess. It doesn't bother me much that they became a Casting race, as that was indeed a property which Nei and Rika had, but the HUnewearl really needs something better to make up for her low damage.

RemiusTA
Jul 30, 2011, 02:36 AM
There's no need for Beasts. You could argue that "they're from PSU and need to stay there", but that's really not my reason. My reason is that they seemed like they were just VERY poorly thought out.

They have no real unique quality in terms of PSO. There was a nice balance between them all -- Humans were (for the most part) the best hunters, Casts were the best rangers, Newmans were the best Forces.

Throw in beasts, and what are they? Low accuracy but high attack power? Sounds like the Hucast to me. OH WAIT they can Nanoblast? Oh goodie. Oh wait, what about the Mag Blasts then? Do they get one of those too? Screw that, do I get a nanoblast? Oh man, we already used the Mirage Blast idea, we gotta come up with something else! Lets think of another shitty plot point.

Oh wait, shit, now that we have Beasts in, we have to create a class distinction for every class! Hubeast, Hubeasteal, Rabeast, Rabeasteal, Fobeast, Fobeasteal. Thats 6 new outfits, 6 new classes that need a unique ability that no other has. High attack power but low accuracy? I guess they'll make good hunters. Low Accuracy? What do we give them to make them decent Rangers? They didn't even mention MST. How are they going to be different from Cast forces? Does the nanoblast make up for all of this? But how do we explain a Force who can change into a super powerful melee monster the moment they're in a pinch? And how does he use the Nanoblast anyway? I guess we have to develop a whole new gameplay system for it. And speaking of which, where did the Beasts come from anyway......????


It just seems like extra work, and a great chance to cut corners.

Omega-z
Jul 30, 2011, 02:36 AM
I was thinking about the Muskcats they could be a new form of Mag evo/living support race. could have powers for transport, talking to monster(story), holding supplies, combat, support...etc. I would make more sense to do that then adding it as a playable race even tho be cool to see, But fits better a Mag/PM role. All the other could be added through the Character Creation part like new clothing or something like that without missing up the balance. What do you think on both just idea's and thought's I had even tho they might never happen?

boomadatigger
Jul 30, 2011, 02:38 AM
No beasts in PSO2?


http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/screenshots/131504d1265251339-animated-gif-thread-yes-nnh-.gif

NoiseHERO
Jul 30, 2011, 02:43 AM
Well technically they could just design a male and female outfit for beasts instead of making it complicated...

Everything prior I'm just gonna consider a PSO homage...

RemiusTA
Jul 30, 2011, 02:46 AM
And thus they would already be cutting corners just to add in something that nobody really needs (or should care about).

I mean, if they could add them in with some kind of play feature that would make them unique then im all for it. But honestly, i'd rather they leave Beasts (or those shitty ass Dumans) out of this game for good, and use their imaginations.

....honestly, i'd rather the Beasts from the original PSU CGI teaser (the super effing epic one that looked absolutely NOTHING like the final game) and leave the half-furries out.

Oh yeah, and actually make the nanoblast look dangerous. Dat PSU running animation was so terrible....

Omega-z
Jul 30, 2011, 02:48 AM
That was what I was thinking too Michaeru, to add it as an outfit that you could play around with in the Character Creation but not just Beasts but Dumans, Motavians, Dezolisians too. and have Muskcats an Evo for Mags.:rappy: That way you could have all the races in there without game breaking or balance issues.

Jade DaBain
Jul 30, 2011, 03:40 AM
No beasts in PSO2?


http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/screenshots/131504d1265251339-animated-gif-thread-yes-nnh-.gif

LOL! I dont know of one person who doesnt like Data.


That was what I was thinking too Michaeru, to add it as an outfit that you could play around with in the Character Creation but not just Beasts but Dumans, Motavians, Dezolisians too. and have Muskcats an Evo for Mags.:rappy: That way you could have all the races in there without game breaking or balance issues.

It would be cool to have the races from the classic series show up in the current series. It would show that Sega didnt forget what made Phantasy Star the way it is today.

Sinue_v2
Jul 30, 2011, 04:53 AM
Motavias are *possibly loosely based off of alpaca but crossed with a gorilla.

http://www.kilblaanfarm.com/alpaca.jpg

They're based off of Jawas.

Phantasy Star I was heavily influenced by the Star Wars saga, both in art design and storyline. Rieko, I believe, stated that she loved the mixing of Eastern and Western philosophies, as well as the mixing of High Fantasy with Sci-Fi Space Opera. (PSO also touched this vein when it came out, which was shortly after Phantom Menace released... hence, prominent use of light/photon sabers.)

Like Jawas, Motavians were a diminutive nomadic desert race which spoke an indecipherable language (unless you used the "Talk" spell) that subsisted on scavenging trash from Palman society.

http://www.pscave.com/ps1/enemies/images/nfarmer.gif
Look familiar?

http://www.jasonhopejawa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/jawaBlaster.jpg

It wouldn't be until PSIV that they would take a prominent role in the mythos of the games, rather than just a being an enemy encounter or minor plot device. PSIV also turned them into a race of tall burly warriors (judging at least by Gryz's stats and Doran's battle scars) who didn't have much use for Techniques... and it's from this cloth that PSU's Beasts were cut from.

Also, Llamas? I thought they looked more like Man-Bear-Owls. 1/2 Man, 1/2 Bear, 1/2 Owl. (Not to be confused with Man-Bear-Pig.)

Jade DaBain
Jul 30, 2011, 04:57 AM
They're based off of Jawas.

Phantasy Star I was heavily influenced by the Star Wars saga, both in art design and storyline. Rieko, I believe, stated that she loved the mixing of Eastern and Western philosophies, as well as the mixing of High Fantasy with Sci-Fi Space Opera. (PSO also touched this vein when it came out, which was shortly after Phantom Menace released... hence, prominent use of light/photon sabers.)

Like Jawas, Motavians were a diminutive nomadic desert race which spoke an indecipherable language (unless you used the "Talk" spell) that subsisted on scavenging trash from Palman society.

http://www.pscave.com/ps1/enemies/images/nfarmer.gif
Look familiar?

http://www.jasonhopejawa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/jawaBlaster.jpg

It wouldn't be until PSIV that they would take a prominent role in the mythos of the games, rather than just a being an enemy encounter or minor plot device. PSIV also turned them into a race of tall burly warriors (judging at least by Gryz's stats and Doran's battle scars) who didn't have much use for Techniques... and it's from this cloth that PSU's Beasts were cut from.

Also, Llamas? I thought they looked more like Man-Bear-Owls. 1/2 Man, 1/2 Bear, 1/2 Owl. (Not to be confused with Man-Bear-Pig.)

I remembered them from the original Phantasy Star. Thats actually where my description of them I posted earlier is from.

TierrenZX
Jul 30, 2011, 05:04 AM
Beasts in PSO2? Beasts have already been confirmed in PSO2....

http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/pso2-rappy.jpg

along with any other hostile creature :D

Sinue_v2
Jul 30, 2011, 05:13 AM
Beast Women are Filthy.

You got that right. ;-)

The only, ONLY, good thing going about Beast women have going for them is that they can lick over 90% of their own bodies. Like my cat.

And even that only stays entertaining for a few moments before it gets creepy.

Shadownami92
Jul 30, 2011, 05:13 AM
I would play as a FoRappy any day! Do it Sega, DO IT!

Sinue_v2
Jul 30, 2011, 05:16 AM
I would play as a FoRappy any day! Do it Sega, DO IT!

Only if they have an all-rappy server, where you get to go into the field and fight little HUmar, RAcast, and FOnewmn enemies.

Jade DaBain
Jul 30, 2011, 05:17 AM
Beasts in PSO2? Beasts have already been confirmed in PSO2....

http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/pso2-rappy.jpg

along with any other hostile creature :D

Rappys are the best! SAY IT NOW!

Shadownami92
Jul 30, 2011, 05:18 AM
If so I would customize my rappy to be as big as possible and hunt down some short hunters.

Would be fun to be on the opposite side of that fight for once!

Jade DaBain
Jul 30, 2011, 05:19 AM
If so I would customize my rappy to be as big as possible and hunt down some short hunters.

Would be fun to be on the opposite side of that fight for once!

I rather play as Dark Falz.

Shadownami92
Jul 30, 2011, 05:20 AM
If I would find it more entertaining to destroy Dark Falz with a total of 12 rappies...

Jade DaBain
Jul 30, 2011, 05:23 AM
If I would find it more entertaining to destroy Dark Falz with a total of 12 rappies...

LOL! Revenge of the Rappys. You thought they were cute and cuddly..... You were wrong!

Shadownami92
Jul 30, 2011, 05:24 AM
LOL! Revenge of the Rappys. You thought they were cute and cuddly..... You were wrong!

I already figured out how wrong I was when my first enemy I ran into on Ultimate mode was a rappy that was at least twice my size and 1 hit killed me.

Jade DaBain
Jul 30, 2011, 05:26 AM
I already figured out how wrong I was when my first enemy I ran into on Ultimate mode was a rappy that was at least twice my size and 1 hit killed me.

LOL! See? Dont be fooled by the power of the Rappy.

Sinue_v2
Jul 30, 2011, 05:32 AM
They have no real unique quality in terms of PSO. There was a nice balance between them all -- Humans were (for the most part) the best hunters, Casts were the best rangers, Newmans were the best Forces.


It's possible to just side-step all of that re-balancing and bullshit by simply keeping the existing classes and ability trees - releasing new races superimposed over the old structure. Perhaps swap out some small token abilities for ones that make sense but are still roughly analogous to it's trade off.

Beasts could be a reskin of HUmar/HUmarl, Motavians a reskin of HUcast/HUcaseal, Dezolians a reskin of FOnewmn/FOnewearl... etc. It would be nothing but pointless fan service, but they could be introduced at a later date without upsetting the balance of the game. They'd just be kind of... useless additions, from a gameplay perspective.

Beasts lose their Nanoblast... big deal. PSU's storyline established already that Nanoblasting abilities were being breed out over time anyhow. (Most Beasts in PSU were canonically unable to Nanoblast)

ShadowDragon28
Jul 30, 2011, 06:47 AM
oh yeah, I forgot about Motavians being inspired initially by Jawas. It it's just that their furry face and ears look like an Alpacha's, just kinda withg squished in, hardened snout.

Sinue i do know that the original Star Wars movies was a huge inspiration on the classic Phantasy Star games, PS I was even inspired by old films based on Greek myths such as the film "Jason and the Argonaughts" and other greek tales (heck Ps I had medusa, Perseus's Mirror Shield, Skelton warriors, Centaurs, and other giant sea monsters reminesent of monsters from greek lore)

voxie
Jul 30, 2011, 08:06 AM
Perhaps our beasts are somewhere here.

http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/i0305884-1305053132.jpg


They blurred a lot at the far right there... could be beasts :)

RemiusTA
Jul 30, 2011, 08:09 AM
It's possible to just side-step all of that re-balancing and bullshit by simply keeping the existing classes and ability trees - releasing new races superimposed over the old structure. Perhaps swap out some small token abilities for ones that make sense but are still roughly analogous to it's trade off.

Beasts could be a reskin of HUmar/HUmarl, Motavians a reskin of HUcast/HUcaseal, Dezolians a reskin of FOnewmn/FOnewearl... etc. It would be nothing but pointless fan service, but they could be introduced at a later date without upsetting the balance of the game. They'd just be kind of... useless additions, from a gameplay perspective.

Beasts lose their Nanoblast... big deal. PSU's storyline established already that Nanoblasting abilities were being breed out over time anyhow. (Most Beasts in PSU were canonically unable to Nanoblast)


Meh i guess. Im just more for PSO's whole "classes are more than just a race/sex combo" thing, which is what its gotten to with Universe. The classes they added in Ep. I&II were unique from the others, but PSU just gave everybody like animations and slapped a few stat changes on them. Which is why i believe humans and newmans were...well...yeah, they sucked.

Newmans should have had "better animations" for weak but speedy weapons, as well as specific technic boosts. Humans should have had some "better animations" for hybrid weapons, seeing as they were the hybrid class. Casts should have had some kind of varied gun abilities, while Beasts should have had "better animations" for 2-handed heavy weapons. (Like the Sword and Axe.)


At least, thats what i think anyway. It would have made Race/Sex combos FAR more interesting if each race and sex were literally different from one another. They already had the template in PSO, i have no clue why they ignored it.


LOL! See? Dont be fooled by the power of the Rappy.

MAN screw rappies! I remember almost everytime i went up a difficulty level, the little bastards just got stronger and stronger. They probably had like a 90% critical rate by the time you got to Ultimate Mode....

Sinue_v2
Jul 30, 2011, 05:41 PM
oh yeah, I forgot about Motavians being inspired initially by Jawas. It it's just that their furry face and ears look like an Alpacha's, just kinda withg squished in, hardened snout.

Sinue i do know that the original Star Wars movies was a huge inspiration on the classic Phantasy Star games, PS I was even inspired by old films based on Greek myths such as the film "Jason and the Argonaughts" and other greek tales (heck Ps I had medusa, Perseus's Mirror Shield, Skelton warriors, Centaurs, and other giant sea monsters reminesent of monsters from greek lore)

Yeah, but even as the series progressed, you still had a lot of western influence in later designs and plotlines. For example, PSIV brought Dark Force far more in line with H.P. Lovecraftian mythos by introducing the Cult of Zio and the Profound Darkness... PSIII, I believe, carries some light influence from Arthur C. Clark's works... and PSII's dynamic between the Earthings weakening and preying upon the Palmans by pampering them into helplessness smacks of H.G. Well's Eloi and Morlocks.

Perhaps this is what bothered me the most about PSU and it's direction... it is so unapologetically and unilaterally Japanese. It draws it's influence from Naruto and other crap children's anime, rather than drawing upon a rich tradition of blending Eastern and Western influences from some of the most well known and respected giants of Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

Niloklives
Jul 30, 2011, 05:51 PM
Yeah, but even as the series progressed, you still had a lot of western influence in later designs and plotlines. For example, PSIV brought Dark Force far more in line with H.P. Lovecraftian mythos by introducing the Cult of Zio and the Profound Darkness... PSIII, I believe, carries some light influence from Arthur C. Clark's works... and PSII's dynamic between the Earthings weakening and preying upon the Palmans by pampering them into helplessness smacks of H.G. Well's Eloi and Morlocks.

Perhaps this is what bothered me the most about PSU and it's direction... it is so unapologetically and unilaterally Japanese. It draws it's influence from Naruto and other crap children's anime, rather than drawing upon a rich tradition of blending Eastern and Western influences from some of the most well known and respected giants of Sci-Fi and Fantasy.

I just wanted to say this is an excellent point. as much as I enjoyed PSU's gameplay for its time, looking back on the classic PS games, the actual world and way of story telling was strongly influenced by western cultures and literature. I have no problem with anime in general terms, but that blend of east and west is what made PS what it was so many years back and certainly is one of it's greatest appeals.

Sinue_v2
Jul 30, 2011, 06:19 PM
I just wanted to say this is an excellent point. as much as I enjoyed PSU's gameplay for its time, looking back on the classic PS games, the actual world and way of story telling was strongly influenced by western cultures and literature. I have no problem with anime in general terms, but that blend of east and west is what made PS what it was so many years back and certainly is one of it's greatest appeals.

When done right, anyhow. Tri-Aces Star Ocean took Phantasy Star's lead and went the other direction - basing their mythos off of the Star Trek universe (though often quickly abandoning it as a back-drop to a traditional fantasy setting). They have a certain quirky charm to them, but they never quite reached the level of sophistication (at least aspired to) by Phantasy Star... or that Star Wars had over Star Trek.

(Though personally, I'm more of a Trek Fan. Star Trek always had more to say about social justice, political philosophy, and humanist utopianism based on the fulfillment of the ideals of the enlightenment... especially in The Next Generation. Star Wars was a retelling of the Monomyth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth), and rooted more in the epic heroes of ancient mythology. Phantasy Star succeeded in following the formula of it's inspiration, especially with PSIV... where Chaz actually exemplifies many of the stages of the Hero's Journey.. such as receiving supernatural aid in the form of Rune who uses magic, the eventual refusal of the call after losing Alys, the blessing of the goddess in his encounter with LeRoof and the remnants of the Great Light at Rykros, and the reluctance to return as shown in the party break up. Star Ocean took the art design and setting influence of Star Trek, but dropped most of the intellectualism, social commentary, and progressive idealism.)

[spoiler-box]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIV3t9eybY
[/spoiler-box]

Malachite
Jul 30, 2011, 06:30 PM
They blurred a lot at the far right there... could be beasts It could also be a blurry blob of color that could be equal to anything, ever. Seriously, using this picture for speculation is silly as hell lol.

Adriano
Jul 30, 2011, 06:34 PM
I still have my fingers crossed that sega fanboys will be a playable race.

Malnurished, Orange Teeth, Bad-Skin, Muscular Atrophy, all stats are the lowest and they have the lowest movement speed!
Oh and they lack the ability to retain meseta, because that big ol' whole in their pocket known as "Insert any sega related title here".


Sounds like fun.

jkjkjkjkjkjjkjkjkjkj

Skye-Fox713
Jul 31, 2011, 05:14 PM
Perhaps our beasts are somewhere here.

http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/i0305884-1305053132.jpg



They blurred a lot at the far right there... could be beasts :)

In the first collum we can see...

HU - mar/marl
RA - mar/marl
FO - mar/marl
HU - cast/caseal
RA - cast/caseal (maybe)

in the other columns it can be safe to assume that they are images for the other race/class combos.

HU, RA, FO - newm/newearl, and FO - cast/caseal

Now in the second block I counted a total of 17 posted papers with at least 8 of them most likely depicting the remaining race/class/gender combos not shown in the first collum. That would leave 9 of the posted papers relating to almost anything pertaining to character/costume design for PSO2.

As much as I would love 6 of those 9 undefined posted papers to be designs for beasts, I fear it is unlikely that they are and most likely pertain to Unit, alternate costume, or mag design.

Still crossing my fingers for beasts to be in PSO2. RAbeaseal all the way, but if not then I'll rock a RAmarl like my PSO ep1&2 days.

ColonD
Jul 31, 2011, 10:22 PM
I figure beasts will probably be added later, but they kinda felt half-assed in PSU to me. Like, they should have details like claw tipped fingers when you can see them, tails, and just some more little details to make them different, and not just from other classes, but from other MMO's beast-like races too.

... You know, if they had a run animation on all fours, that would be kinda cool.

Although the character-creation sliders and beast ears looks like it could be a fun combination. :3

ARASHIKAGE
Jul 31, 2011, 10:45 PM
quoted
There's a thread about this picture a few threads down the page(Concept art Characters), I posted it right before we got all those extra screen shots...

And yes I have to agree Beast could very well be in PSO2, and I'm sure they will be very cool.

StriderTuna
Jul 31, 2011, 11:04 PM
I'm just hoping they stand out better in appearance and stats than they did in PSU/PSP.

Skye-Fox713
Jul 31, 2011, 11:12 PM
I figure beasts will probably be added later, but they kinda felt half-assed in PSU to me. Like, they should have details like claw tipped fingers when you can see them, tails, and just some more little details to make them different, and not just from other classes, but from other MMO's beast-like races too.

... You know, if they had a run animation on all fours, that would be kinda cool.

Although the character-creation sliders and beast ears looks like it could be a fun combination. :3

Indeed I do agree, while they did have key features like different eyes, details in the nose and mouth. They were missing some of the subtler details such as claw like fingernails and tails. Though I can see some people going anti furry rage because of adding tails.


There's a thread about this picture a few threads down the page(Concept art Characters), I posted it right before we got all those extra screen shots...

And yes I have to agree Beast could very well be in PSO2, and I'm sure they will be very cool.

Hmm, i'll have to check it out later. Some one was pointing out that there could be the beast race/class/gender combos. Its just I'm being pessimistic and not trying to get my hopes up too high just in case. Though on the other hand I have my fingers crossed hoping that beasts will be in.

Kalico
Aug 1, 2011, 02:49 PM
Having only really played PSO to any extent I can't really comment on higher level PSU characters. Though from what I did play the beast seemed to really be struggling to find their niche as far as stats go. That being said though, they were probably my favorite race to play.

While the PS games typically have races with greatly different stats (and in the case of PSO race/class restrictions), PSO2 seems to be lightening up on this by allowing every race to play every class. I don't see why a new race needs to qualify itself with vastly different stats, I wouldn't mind just having some visual and stylistic differences between some races. I played beast not because I was interested in maxing its potential as a hunter/ranger/etc. I just played them because they looked cool.


Indeed I do agree, while they did have key features like different eyes, details in the nose and mouth. They were missing some of the subtler details such as claw like fingernails and tails. Though I can see some people going anti furry rage because of adding tails.

Screw them then, I think those visual differences would really add to the aesthetic charm of playing that race. Those are really good ideas. I'm really hoping they come back in one way or another.

And on that note I think the Motavian could fufill that modified beast character niche given their more animalistic appearance.

RemiusTA
Aug 1, 2011, 02:55 PM
No tails. And no fur.

They should have had SOME kind of distinct traits, though.

Honestly, the only thing that made beasts "beasts" is the nanoblasting. Which, honestly, could have easily been a human ability.

Slap on the badge, go nuts.

BIG OLAF
Aug 1, 2011, 03:07 PM
Honestly, the only thing that made beasts "beasts" is the nanoblasting.

Haha, wow. Yes, because their facial features looked just like a Human, or Newman. I'll admit that they could have been a bit more..."wild-looking", but to say that there was no noticeable physical distinction is just silly.

Kalico
Aug 1, 2011, 03:14 PM
Haha, wow. Yes, because their facial features looked just like a Human, or Newman. I'll admit that they could have been a bit more..."wild-looking", but to say that there was no noticeable physical distinction is just silly.

Yeah I have to agree. The Newmans only real physical difference were the ears, and beasts had different ear, nose and eye options.

PSO/PSU never has had racial differences that stick out immediately (aside from casts at least), they all carry the basic human look with minor differences. Which I suppose makes sense given their origins

Stats wise, yes, they needed a more defined niche. Physically though they were about as different as any other Phantasy Star race in the MMO style games.

NoiseHERO
Aug 1, 2011, 03:49 PM
Actually newmans have completely different eyes...

and in the portable games they all have completely different faces... Beasts looking kind of serious, newmans looking extra skinny (facially at least) humans being... humans...Casts having that metal hipster beard.

boomadatigger
Aug 1, 2011, 03:51 PM
Actually newmans have completely different eyes...

and in the portable games they all have completely different faces... Beasts looking kind of serious, newmans looking extra skinny (facially at least) humans being... humans...Casts having that metal hipster beard.

Absolutely right about Newman faces. I was about to mention the different faces and eyes but you beat me to it. But casts by far are the standout "race" in terms of uniqueness. Well, at least in PSU, anyways. Doesn't make them any better since Newmans are, and will always be, the best race. The only thing that could possibly top a Newman (or Numan), would be having Motavian or Rappies as playable races. Of course Sega would never make those two playable considering their continued distancing from the original four rpgs. Meh, life goes on.

Oh, yeah,...BEASTS BELONG ON A LEASH!!!

ShinMaruku
Aug 1, 2011, 07:46 PM
Yeah I have to agree. The Newmans only real physical difference were the ears, and beasts had different ear, nose and eye options.

PSO/PSU never has had racial differences that stick out immediately (aside from casts at least), they all carry the basic human look with minor differences. Which I suppose makes sense given their origins

Stats wise, yes, they needed a more defined niche. Physically though they were about as different as any other Phantasy Star race in the MMO style games.
Well you look at the story they would not look too different since they are just off shoots of being humans from PSII onward.

yoshiblue
Aug 1, 2011, 08:30 PM
Well in PSP, they didn't have that weird beard. Then In PSP2 they forced it on for some reason.

Skye-Fox713
Aug 1, 2011, 09:33 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/Ghost713/Maya_JOEcopy-01.jpg

Beast Women, even Newmans can't resist the fact that "Beast Women are the Best."

BIG OLAF
Aug 1, 2011, 09:37 PM
That couldn't really be a "Beast" in the Phantasy Star sense, though, as they don't have tails unless Nanoblasting.

Taijutsu-Joshua
Aug 1, 2011, 09:40 PM
Absolutely right about Newman faces. I was about to mention the different faces and eyes but you beat me to it. But casts by far are the standout "race" in terms of uniqueness. Well, at least in PSU, anyways. Doesn't make them any better since Newmans are, and will always be, the best race. The only thing that could possibly top a Newman (or Numan), would be having Motavian or Rappies as playable races. Of course Sega would never make those two playable considering their continued distancing from the original four rpgs. Meh, life goes on.

Oh, yeah,...BEASTS BELONG ON A LEASH!!!

NEWMANS UNITE!

Enforcer MKV
Aug 1, 2011, 09:42 PM
*sitting on a crate, craddling his rifle*

Can't we all just get along?

Skye-Fox713
Aug 1, 2011, 09:47 PM
Oh, yeah,...BEASTS BELONG ON A LEASH!!!

Wouldn't that be considered a subsection of what some Newman deviants do behind closed doors? :P

Taijutsu-Joshua
Aug 1, 2011, 09:50 PM
*sitting on a crate, craddling his rifle*

Can't we all just get along?

*panics* It doesn't have to be this way...

Enforcer MKV
Aug 1, 2011, 09:54 PM
*panics* It doesn't have to be this way...

Eh, why the unease?

*looks at his rifle*

Oh....

*sets it down*

Sorry, I just was busy inspecting it.

EDIT: On the subject of rifles, one of the screenshots had a (I think RAnewearal) holding a rifle that looked like an M-8, an experimental rifle that until recently was being developed to replace our aging M-16 / M-4 weapons systems. Any thoughts on Sega possibly using real-world weapons as designs for in-game weapons?

EDIT 2: My mistake, that's a RAmarl.

yoshiblue
Aug 1, 2011, 09:57 PM
Red. Red! Red!! Red mages HOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Humes for the win.

Skye-Fox713
Aug 1, 2011, 10:27 PM
Eh, why the unease?

*looks at his rifle*

Oh....

*sets it down*

Sorry, I just was busy inspecting it.

EDIT: On the subject of rifles, one of the screenshots had a (I think RAnewearal) holding a rifle that looked like an M-8, an experimental rifle that until recently was being developed to replace our aging M-16 / M-4 weapons systems. Any thoughts on Sega possibly using real-world weapons as designs for in-game weapons?

EDIT 2: My mistake, that's a RAmarl.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/282155_186260944771917_184356218295723_488641_8814 69_n.jpg

Every ranger so far has been depicted with the same M8 looking rifle, here's a screen shot of a weapons shop with various looking weapons. Inspiration comes from everywhere and it may vary likely be that the M8 could have been a large contributor to the ascetic of the rifle we have seen in the screen shots.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 1, 2011, 10:33 PM
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/282155_186260944771917_184356218295723_488641_8814 69_n.jpg

Every ranger so far has been depicted with the same M8 looking rifle, here's a screen shot of a weapons shop with various looking weapons. Inspiration comes from everywhere and it may vary likely be that the M8 could have been a large contributor to the ascetic of the rifle we have seen in the screen shots.

Agreed, it looks like it's possible that they even took some of the Mods for it, and incorporated them into the designs, as shown on the barrel lengths, scopes, and what even looks like an underslung grenade launcher.

If Sega actually decided to put a degree of weapon customization into this, I might die of happiness. (That would be bad....very, very, bad...)

Calsetes
Aug 9, 2011, 12:58 PM
Ya know, they should have had Motavians in PSU instead of Beasts.

I keep thinking the same thing. I really miss the Motavians and the Dezolians (or Dezorians or whatever.) Were Espers a whole other race also, or were they just humans with magical ability or something?

BIG OLAF
Aug 9, 2011, 01:25 PM
Were Espers a whole other race also, or were they just humans with magical ability or something?

Espers were just humans that possessed extremely high magical perception.

uhawww
Aug 9, 2011, 01:43 PM
Will wait and hold out hope.
I remember the lead up to PSU, we didn't even know that there were playable Beast Females until that fan-made JP Character creator site was released with data from the beta mere days before launch.
Sega are masters of withholding information.

BIG OLAF
Aug 9, 2011, 01:46 PM
Will wait and hold out hope.
I remember the lead up to PSU, we didn't even know that there were playable Beast Females until that fan-made JP Character creator site was released with data from the beta mere days before launch.

There won't be Beasts in PSO2. Sakai already said it himself. Only Newmans, Humans, and CASTs.

However, when asked about adding Beasts (or any other races), he also said that future expansion packs hold a lot of promise for such things.

landman
Aug 9, 2011, 03:45 PM
I would love to see Beasts, Motavians and Dezolians :wacko:


It doesn't necessarily mean that they need to go back to the classic storyline. The race doesn't even need to be called "Motavian." In a similar way to how Newmans were brought into PSO and the other future installments, I don't see why Motavians couldn't be brought back.

Bringing Motavians into the equation could be just as easily done as bringing Beasts in. Rewrite their canon to compensate for a plot setting far away from where they originate from.


With this in mind, know that I'm not completely serious. The chance of seeing Motavians in PSO2 is a long shot from likelihood. If they were introduced, through unfathomable means, you wouldn't hear me complaining, however.

If they are back I would like it to have a connection, something that "makes sense", newmen/beasts and androids/CASTs are man made races, so they could always be there again, but motavians, either the Arks visit algol, or a place were they moved, or a place were they lived before...

Their mouth may look like a beak in PSIV, but they clearly looked like rats in the original game's instruction manual:

http://i54.tinypic.com/2z5kwlc.png

ShinMaruku
Aug 9, 2011, 04:00 PM
They said they MIGHT add new races in later expansions though.

Aka no.

NoiseHERO
Aug 9, 2011, 04:20 PM
Aka no.

I dunno...

If I'm assuming they'd want this game to last at least last like 10 years... And since I wouldn't be surprised if this was the last major PS...

If we get a number of expansions...a new race doesn't exactly sound out of the ordinary.

But hey, I'm fine with just the three we have.

ShinMaruku
Aug 9, 2011, 04:28 PM
I read the topic as where are the breasts. Then I saw this:
http://i.imgur.com/ToR31.gif
Ah there you are....

Enforcer MKV
Aug 9, 2011, 07:56 PM
I read the topic as where are the breasts. Then I saw this:
http://i.imgur.com/ToR31.gif
Ah there you are....

I know, right? XD

Mracless
Aug 10, 2011, 08:30 AM
First of all, expansions haven't been mentioned! ><
Sakai said "this is an online game, after all, so we could always decide to increase that number."
Saying races could be added through any old update, but yeah, you wouldn't really expect a race to be added in anything less than an expansion.
Sorry to be a whiney little shit about that.

But adding new races after release seems so awkward.
Dumans sort of made sense, since they were just Seed-infected humans. Although it was a bit silly that there was no mention of them up to the point when we could play as them, except for Hyuga, kind of.
It was like "These guys have been around for ages, haven't you noticed?" since you can do episode 1 as a duman.

Anyway, on to my point, jeez!
BEASTS! The chance of them coming back is so low. I'm sad.
I don't know if they could just be introduced so easily.

Here are some ways I could see them being introduced:

1. "We've genetically engineered a new race with animal strength with ears (and tails) from humans and they grow into teens/adults in like a month or two."

Yeah, ultra stupid. Don't do it!

2. "We've discovered a new planet that is home to a race of beings that are much less technologically advanced and coincidentally they look like humans with different ears (and tails). We're going to sign them up to the war effort."

All right, somewhat feasible. There'd probably be a language barrier, but we could use science to overcome that. Lots of potential for racism.

3. "Oh no, I'm a human and I've been bitten by a wolf or something. Now my ears have changed (,I've got a tail) and my stats have changed! OH NO, a full moon!"

Pretty feasible again. Similar to how dumans were added. Lots of stuff.

OK, well, there are some ways new races could be added, but it's going to be annoying if I get the game at release, recreate my current beast main as a human or something, then like a year later, beasts are introduced and I'd have get rid of that human and do the whole rigamarole with the new race. GRR...

Unless they went with option 3 and let you convert your human to a beast. That'd be good.

I don't know what I'm saying anymore. Just rambling now. Bye.

yoshiblue
Aug 10, 2011, 08:54 AM
With an expansion, now they can this...

A) you find feral beasts and receive a mission asking you to figure out what happened. you find a destroyed lab and gather research notes. When you return you unlock the ability to make beast.


B) similer to A, a research was studying how to make humans stronger for rough and heavy jobs.

Ba)basicly the same as A
Bb) you find the lab was under attack and after defending it you find the proto type beast. after that beast are made therefore you unlock beasts.


C) A ship crash lands and you are sent to find out what happened and search for survivors.

Ca) something went off in the ship and cause something simier to fallout were the crew mutated.
Cb) the crew was taken hostage and experimented on. You free them but it turns out(after finding a few dead bodys and such) that they have been tranformed. When you return, the scientist want in on this research and beasts are unlocked.

RenzokukenZ
Aug 10, 2011, 10:03 AM
Or they can have it that Beasts are in the game as inhabitants of one of the planets, and have refused to fight for the Arks' cause, but probably still aid with supplies via shops . Hence being unplayable.

Then in a later expansion, something balls up (Beast planet blows up, population near extinct, etc) which would lead them to join the Arks in battle against the Darkher or whatnot.

BIG OLAF
Aug 10, 2011, 10:05 AM
First of all, expansions haven't been mentioned! ><

Because I'm sure they'll never release a single expansion (or even large update) for PSO2, right? :rolleyes:

yoshiblue
Aug 10, 2011, 10:08 AM
Or they can have it that Beasts are in the game as inhabitants of one of the planets, and have refused to fight for the Arks' cause, but probably still aid with supplies via shops . Hence being unplayable.

Then in a later expansion, something balls up (Beast planet blows up, population near extinct, etc) which would lead them to join the Arks in battle against the Darkher or whatnot.

That works too. Thanks for expanding on it.

•Col•
Aug 10, 2011, 10:30 AM
1. "We've genetically engineered a new race with animal strength with ears (and tails) from humans and they grow into teens/adults in like a month or two."

Yeah, ultra stupid. Don't do it!

That's pretty much what they did in PSO with Newmans... *cough* They only lived a few years because they rapidly aged since they were biologically unstable or something like that.

Just sayin'.

yoshiblue
Aug 10, 2011, 10:35 AM
Maybe it was fine because it was kinda sort set from the original phantasy stars, it was something new to toy with at the time and/or they were the only ones to be modified other then what went on in the other episodes which also had genetic modifications going on.

Maybe if beast and the vanguard class were created during PSO release then nobody would have these arguments. Making VAmars, VAmarels, HUeastels, HUeastars and makeing the CASTs mostly range dominate. Now i'm just talking crazy talk.

Mracless
Aug 10, 2011, 10:43 AM
Or they can have it that Beasts are in the game as inhabitants of one of the planets, and have refused to fight for the Arks' cause, but probably still aid with supplies via shops . Hence being unplayable.

Then in a later expansion, something balls up (Beast planet blows up, population near extinct, etc) which would lead them to join the Arks in battle against the Darkher or whatnot.

Yeah, they could do something like that, but it'd be pretty stupid if they aren't mentioned even once up until the point they are playable, and if they refused to help Arks fight against the Darkher things until that catastrophe, then what bastards!


Because I'm sure they'll never release a single expansion (or even large update) for PSO2, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know it's pretty inevitable that there'll be expansions down the line. An instant $40 from each of their player base! SUCCESS!
But let's not go crazy and say Sakai has already mentioned expansions before vanilla (vanilla is the best ice cream flavor) has come out.


That's pretty much what they did in PSO with Newmans... *cough* They only lived a few years because they rapidly aged since they were biologically unstable or something like that.

Just sayin'.

D: I've never known much about PSO "lore", to be honest. I just played the game. ><

Can't believe that's the case!

Well, that was decided before the game was released, I guess, and newmans are super smart and could mentally age much faster than humans, I guess.
Doesn't really work with beasts, who aren't really known with their intelligence. ^^;

I just think it's a lame excuse to explain the sudden appearance of 10s of thousands of a new race that aren't babies.

Sorry for being stupid again.

BIG OLAF
Aug 10, 2011, 10:45 AM
(vanilla is the best ice cream flavor)

Because of this statement, you have forever lost all credibility with me. Do not try and reconcile.

Mracless
Aug 10, 2011, 10:49 AM
I had credibility to lose? D:

But seriously! What's better than vanilla ice cream?

yoshiblue
Aug 10, 2011, 10:53 AM
Hey now. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't. I like the original Tetris (well the basic game) over all that has been released. Although I used the Rome Total Realism mod and the Europa Barbarorum mod over the vanilla.


I had credibility to lose? D:

But seriously! What's better than vanilla ice cream?

Rocky road and mint chocolate!

BIG OLAF
Aug 10, 2011, 11:00 AM
But seriously! What's better than vanilla ice cream?

Every other flavor. Vanilla tastes like air/nothing, which is stupid. It's the absolute most boring flavor.

Mracless
Aug 10, 2011, 11:27 AM
Hey now. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't. I like the original Tetris (well the basic game) over all that has been released. Although I used the Rome Total Realism mod and the Europa Barbarorum mod over the vanilla.



Rocky road and mint chocolate!

No one has said vanilla games are better than expanded/modded games, unless I missed something. ><
Just know that I did not say vanilla games are better! No way! AotI made PSU a fairly decent game! I can't play Oblivion, Fallout 3 and NV unless they're modded out the ass.


Every other flavor. Vanilla tastes like air/nothing, which is stupid. It's the absolute most boring flavor.

I don't know, mate. I'm sorry you feel that way.
I find vanilla ice cream to be devine. It's light and perfectly sweet.
Maybe all treats just taster nicer over here.

yoshiblue
Aug 10, 2011, 11:32 AM
Its all good. It flew over my head when I read it. I didn't catch on until you asked what was better then vanilla lol.

NoiseHERO
Aug 10, 2011, 12:51 PM
I don't like dairy products like that... If anything all the flavors just taste weird to me.

So I can ONLY enjoy vanilla(even rocky road or whatever bugs me...

But everyone has their preference, I feel discriminated against...

Calsetes
Aug 10, 2011, 12:52 PM
They could add beasts and just say "Ok, these guys were used for slave labor, but now due to Plot Point X and World Lore Y, they've earned their freedom and now are conscripted into the Hunter's Guild." Or just remove the "already free and join the army" part and make it like Starship Troopers - to become free and become a "citizen," they have to serve in the Hunter's Guild for X years.

Malachite
Aug 10, 2011, 12:52 PM
Every other flavor. Vanilla tastes like air/nothing, which is stupid. It's the absolute most boring flavor.
You should update your taste bud drivers.

Skye-Fox713
Aug 10, 2011, 02:40 PM
so how did we go from talking about beasts to ice cream?

landman
Aug 10, 2011, 02:40 PM
That's pretty much what they did in PSO with Newmans... *cough* They only lived a few years because they rapidly aged since they were biologically unstable or something like that.

Just sayin'.
The same applies to Nei and Rika, but PSO newman also had the peculiarity that they could die randomly for that same unstable biology. For that reason they are provably a reenginered different race in PSO2 (like they were in Zero)


If they reached Algol they could easily introduce Beasts as they would be Rika's lineage :-P

RemiusTA
Aug 10, 2011, 02:50 PM
Like i said, i'd much rather the type of beasts shown during the very first PSU CG trailer (the one that said "Phantasy Star Online 2?" on it). The female with the horn and the guy who looked like Leo.

I dont care for PSU beasts at all, they really didn't leave a mark on me. Perhaps if their nanoblast was handled better. But they can seriously come up with a more interesting race concept.

And no, im not talking about Dumans. That was just a terrible, terrible idea.

Tetsaru
Aug 10, 2011, 02:51 PM
But seriously! What's better than vanilla ice cream?

For what it's worth, the term "vanilla" is sometimes used to describe something that hasn't been modified or altered in any way - the original, if you will.

Anyone here familiar with Magic: the Gathering or Yugioh? A "vanilla" monster in those games would be something like Grizzly Bears (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=129586&type=card) or Celtic Guardian (http://images.wikia.com/yugioh/images/8/86/CelticGuardianYAP1-EN-UR-LE.png) - ones that do what they need to do in the scope of the game, but don't really do anything else special.

Similarly, pre-AotI PSU could be called "vanilla" PSU, or a 1* saber weapon would be a "vanilla" saber, as compared to an Elysion +2.

And Snickers ice cream bars ftw. :wacko:

Mracless
Aug 10, 2011, 03:35 PM
Yes, I'm well aware of that, which is why I asked what's better than vanilla ice cream and said "(vanilla is the best ice cream flavor)" in the other post in brackets just for a little bit of fun.

I've already pointed out that I in absolutely no way think vanilla games are better than expanded games and have clearly shown that I know what vanilla means in the context of games.
More often than not games are much better with expansions.


Like i said, i'd much rather the type of beasts shown during the very first PSU CG trailer (the one that said "Phantasy Star Online 2?" on it). The female with the horn and the guy who looked like Leo.

I dont care for PSU beasts at all, they really didn't leave a mark on me. Perhaps if their nanoblast was handled better. But they can seriously come up with a more interesting race concept.

And no, im not talking about Dumans. That was just a terrible, terrible idea.

Beasts might not have touched your cold cold heart, but they touched the hearts of many others.
Some of us want to recreate our beasts!

I don't know why you're whining about them not being an interesting race concepts.
Humans, newmans and casts are all pretty generic in a way.
There might be some interesting story behind those races that beasts don't have, but long ears and an android race is pretty uninspired.
Not to mention that in the PSO2 universe, they'll probably have different origins to those of the classic PS games.

Gawd, I'm going to be hated for saying that. Look, I love those races and what not, but I want beasts as well even though they might not be an interesting race concept to you.

And stop trying to turn beasts into animals!
I am not a furry! No deviating from the original human formula by like more than 5% or something!
Ears, tails and minor facial alterations are all good! Beast women are easily the best looking females in PSU onwards! ^^;

Sorry for being so superficial and stupid.

Zyrusticae
Aug 10, 2011, 04:13 PM
I don't know why you're whining [...]
That's not whining.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM) is whining.

Malachite
Aug 10, 2011, 04:25 PM
STOP WHINING!

BIG OLAF
Aug 10, 2011, 04:50 PM
Beast women are easily the best looking females in PSU onwards! ^^;

Never mind what I said earlier. We're going to be great friends.

EDIT: But, get ready for a downpour of hatred since you said you love Beasts. Most people around here don't take kindly to that statement for some reason.

Angelo
Aug 10, 2011, 06:40 PM
Like i said, i'd much rather the type of beasts shown during the very first PSU CG trailer (the one that said "Phantasy Star Online 2?" on it). The female with the horn and the guy who looked like Leo.

This, definitely.

Rei-San
Aug 10, 2011, 08:32 PM
I love beasts.

Beast women are the best.

I love my Beast women.

I'm sad that they would dare leave them out. :( They better be in the full game. I don't want my main heroine to be a HUneweal again.

But I hope they give beasts a more distinct look this time around. Maybe give them more animal-like ears, nose, and tail. But I personally want a choice between human like beasts or more animal-hybrid like beasts.

BIG OLAF
Aug 10, 2011, 08:34 PM
I love beasts.

Beast women are the best.

I love my Beast women.

I'm making a lot of new friends today.

NoiseHERO
Aug 10, 2011, 08:38 PM
I like beasts.

But I like centaur girls more...

yoshiblue
Aug 10, 2011, 08:45 PM
[Insert a Yo Dawg here]

Fayorei
Aug 10, 2011, 11:35 PM
Never mind what I said earlier. We're going to be great friends.

EDIT: But, get ready for a downpour of hatred since you said you love Beasts. Most people around here don't take kindly to that statement for some reason.

Beast women are the best!!!

I may play a Newman main always(because of HUnewearls in PSO), but my second character is most always a beast woman hunter.:D

BIG OLAF
Aug 10, 2011, 11:41 PM
Beast women are the best!!!

Yes, they are. I'm surprised to see so many people agree with this for once. Usually it's nothing but hatred.

RenzokukenZ
Aug 11, 2011, 12:05 AM
The hatred comes from jealously and denial. To love Beast women is a guilty pleasure to some, so they won't outright admit it.

And while I'm more of a Cast person, Beast women really are the best. And softer^^;

landman
Aug 11, 2011, 12:20 AM
The female with the horn and the guy who looked like Leo.
She is provably CAST, she fights another non fleshy cast with a similar horn.

Mracless
Aug 11, 2011, 06:01 AM
All the female beast love is coming out now!
Where have you been hiding, everyone?
Your support has been needed against the onslaught of hatred against them!

Akaimizu
Aug 11, 2011, 11:44 AM
What do you mean? In a recent contest of Women in Phantasy Star Universe (timeline), Laia was the winner. Not seeing a lot of female beast hate. Ok, maybe some comments, but still....

Crazyleo
Aug 11, 2011, 11:49 AM
Motavians!!! (Sorry. Just had to throw that in there.)

Can't forget the Dezolians either. :-o

Angelo
Aug 11, 2011, 12:05 PM
But I hope they give beasts a more distinct look this time around. Maybe give them more animal-like ears, nose, and tail. But I personally want a choice between human like beasts or more animal-hybrid like beasts.

That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I want. I want their 'beast'-ness to be much more subtle in the way that the Galka and Mithra from FFXI became the Roegadyn and Miqote in FFXIV.

RedRaz0r
Aug 11, 2011, 02:28 PM
I really hope that there are no beasts...a new race, yes. Beasts, no.

BIG OLAF
Aug 11, 2011, 02:48 PM
I really hope that there are no beasts...a new race, yes. Beasts, no.

You don't pay attention, huh? Beasts aren't in PSO2. This fact has been long established. We were just talking about how we all like them.

yoshiblue
Aug 11, 2011, 08:42 PM
Humans yeah!

dragoon-girl
Aug 12, 2011, 12:33 AM
I really hope that there are no beasts...a new race, yes. Beasts, no.

You meanie! ; ;

FOkyasuta
Aug 12, 2011, 12:37 AM
Seems like a good way to Balance things. Nothing wrong with just 3.

yoshiblue
Aug 12, 2011, 12:43 AM
Best title for the expansion would be Beast Wars. Heck I would laugh it they came in their own flagship and opened fire on the Arks

StriderTuna
Aug 12, 2011, 01:29 AM
Seems like a good way to Balance things. Nothing wrong with just 3.

This for the time being. Honestly beasts as they are don't add much to the game compared to the existing three classes.

unicorn
Aug 12, 2011, 02:58 AM
I'll miss Beasts, but even in PSU their existence was useless since CASTs did melee better.

Shame though, I'm so attached to my fem Beast!!! ;-; I guess RAnewearl will have to do.

Alis-Landeel
Aug 12, 2011, 04:16 AM
For the beginning 3 races are perfect.
Then they should be added two new races: Motavians (strongest - no tech) and Dezolisians (advanced technics - weakest).

Obviously with the addition of a coherent storyline.

yoshiblue
Aug 12, 2011, 05:37 AM
Could always add "glass cannon" classes/races. They could also add classes that start up slow but are overpowered end game.

RemiusTA
Aug 12, 2011, 10:49 AM
Beasts do not need tails or any of that dumb furry stuffs.

They were fine the way they were. I just think they should...you know...have anatomy that differs at least slightly from human or newman anatomy? And no, im not talking about a beast nose/lip/ear. Like, slightly longer hands, or feet. Possibly a naturally larger or more lean/muscular build that actually made them look like they were born on a planet that forced their genes to favor a more physical build.


It always bothered me how i could never make a character look like Leogani or something.


Might be a touchy subject on the internet, but look back at the Slaves back in the day (since Beasts IMO were such an obvious nod to something like this.) Back in the day, slave masters used to purchase slaves that were big or muscular, or who looked like they had a healthy build in order to assure they would get the most out of them. If you mate only fit and healthy males with only fit and healthy females, what do you think the Children are going to look like?


It's called breeding. If two tall people get together and have a kid, they're probably going to have a kid who grows as tall as them. There is a reason there are some people who are just naturally larger and more muscular than others -- their gene pool was lead in that direction. Beasts seemed to ignore this rule, though...they looked absolutely no different than Newmans or Humans, despite being born on a dangerous planet and probably being WAY more active on a daily basis than Newmans (who look pretty conservative) or Humans (who seem to do what we do every day.)


Unless the "normal beasts" just decided to pray on the "little beasts" because of japan's loli obsession. Looking at you, Tyler. I guess that would stunt their growth....?

moorebounce
Aug 12, 2011, 11:31 AM
You know Sega could be seeing what fans say about them being in the game or not. They left out the forces in the first video until people started complaining about it.

RemiusTA
Aug 12, 2011, 11:55 AM
Forces were always in the game. They just didn't want to show them yet.

PSO without Hunter Ranger and Force isn't PSO. The people who figured they wern't going to be in the game were just unnecessarily paranoid.

especially seeing as a Fomarl was obviously shown in the trailer, along with Fomar, Ramar and Ramarl concept art. There was absolutely no reason to figure they wern't in the game or had been replaced.

•Col•
Aug 12, 2011, 01:25 PM
As much as I wanted Beasts to return in PSO2.... Now I'm just not sure if they'd even fit into it. Or any other race for that matter.

Instead of dividing the stats for 4 classes over 4 races, they kinda just... Messed it up. They didn't mention anything about accuracy, which is weird, because usually that is the most important stat for Rangers. But right now, it sounds like Casts are going to be the best Hunters and Rangers. And Newmans are going to be the worst Hunters and Rangers. (I'm not taking techs into account because yes, it gives Newmans versatility, which is a HUGE strength, but end-game, it's best to just specialize in one area)

If they were to add Beasts(or another race) they'd have to make the stats kinda weird... Right now I'm thinking something like... Highest ATP, HP inbetween Humans/Casts, DFP inbetween Humans/Newmans, Offensive magic stat between Humans/Newmans, Defensive magic stat between Humans/Casts, Highest Evasion, lowest Accuracy.

So in other words, they'd dish out quite a bit of melee/tech damage, although it'd be somewhat unreliable with the low Accuracy stat. They'd be more frail than Humans, but not as bad as Newmans due to their high evasion and large HP pool.

With these types of stats, they could balance the classes in the following ways in terms of effectiveness:
HUbeast=RAcast=FOnewm
HUmar=RAmar=FOmar
HUcast=RAnewm=FObeast
HUnewm=RAbeast=FOcast

Kenbog
Aug 12, 2011, 01:55 PM
Uhm RAbeasts where actualy good in PSU way better then HUnewm and FOcasts.... at higher levels they practically never miss and did quite good damage

I sure hope they bring them back... beasts are 1 letter more then best anyway
yup I am a beast fan had 2 female beasts in all universe titles :3

I also think they should release a monster or Algolian-cat race, something outside humanoids .... but bleh no one cares

JC10001
Aug 12, 2011, 04:06 PM
I don't think we need them. But I would like to see Humans have the most ATP so that Casts aren't the best hunters AND the best rangers. Also make bullet damage based on ACC, so that Newmans aren't the worst hunters AND the worst rangers.

With this setup:

Hunter --> Human > Cast > Newman
Ranger --> Cast > Newman > Human
Force --> Newman > Human > Cast

Randomness
Aug 12, 2011, 04:21 PM
I don't think we need them. But I would like to see Humans have the most ATP so that Casts aren't the best hunters AND the best rangers. Also make bullet damage based on ACC, so that Newmans aren't the worst hunters AND the worst rangers.

With this setup:

Hunter --> Human > Cast > Newman
Ranger --> Cast > Newman > Human
Force --> Newman > Human > Cast

Oh god yes. PSU was so bad about that. Humans were third at hunter, third at ranger (Beasts were actually better since RA made up for their shit ATA), and distant second at force. Newmans were basically dead last at hunter, dead last at ranger, and best at force. And nothing else. Casts were best (tie) at hunter and (outright) at ranger. Complete racial imbalance. Thank god for only three races this time around (And yes, I know they eventually let ATA contribute to ranged damage... which still left humans as nigh useless)

•Col•
Aug 12, 2011, 04:27 PM
I don't think we need them. But I would like to see Humans have the most ATP so that Casts aren't the best hunters AND the best rangers. Also make bullet damage based on ACC, so that Newmans aren't the worst hunters AND the worst rangers.

With this setup:

Hunter --> Human > Cast > Newman
Ranger --> Cast > Newman > Human
Force --> Newman > Human > Cast

Casts have the highest physical strength; it's already been confirmed. Humans are still the balanced type. If anything, they could give Humans the highest ACC and make them the best Rangers, and 2nd best Hunter/Force...

EDIT:

Oh god yes. PSU was so bad about that. Humans were third at hunter, third at ranger (Beasts were actually better since RA made up for their shit ATA), and distant second at force. Newmans were basically dead last at hunter, dead last at ranger, and best at force. And nothing else. Casts were best (tie) at hunter and (outright) at ranger. Complete racial imbalance. Thank god for only three races this time around (And yes, I know they eventually let ATA contribute to ranged damage... which still left humans as nigh useless)

Well what they're doing now is kinda messing it up. They're making it so that Humans are still a "balanced" race, when there's only 3 classes. Now there's 2 races left to put into the typical class roles. It really does seem like Casts will be the best Hunters and Rangers again.

This is why I loved PSP2's Race/Class balance. Everything fit so well (stat wise). T_T

Randomness
Aug 12, 2011, 04:37 PM
Casts have the highest physical strength; it's already been confirmed. Humans are still the balanced type. If anything, they could give Humans the highest ACC and make them the best Rangers, and 2nd best Hunter/Force...

EDIT:


Well what they're doing now is kinda messing it up. They're making it so that Humans are still a "balanced" race, when there's only 3 classes. Now there's 2 races left to put into the typical class roles. It really does seem like Casts will be the best Hunters and Rangers again.

This is why I loved PSP2's Race/Class balance. Everything fit so well (stat wise). T_T

If humans are second best rangers, that means newmans are still worst at everything but FO. And PSP2 still had humans losing out in everything. Third at hunter, third at ranger, second at underpowered force.

Though, with hunters and rangers (in theory) getting techs in PSO2, we'll have to see how well newmans do when you account for that. If a RAnewearl can do the tech damage of a FOmar (or just under), and have decent gun damage, it could be interesting (Or just do decent tech damage, period. I mean, HUnewearls could get by at points on the back of their techs in PSO - especially since they could drop level 20 SDJZ, which made them actually hit harder than HUmars)

Zynetic
Aug 12, 2011, 04:56 PM
Oh no, my favourite race isn't the best at something. UNBALANCED GAME.

I'm not sure what else to say, because that is all the prior posts are saying. The game will probably work like PSO, in that the 'worse' classes at HU/RA (not casts, in other words) will have a better time solo'ing than the classes who are the 'best', while in a multiplayer environment, the better classes will have a breeze with a good support class with them. Of course, in PSO, androids were still easier to use than fleshies when solo'ing due to freeze traps.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 12, 2011, 05:26 PM
Oh no, my favourite race isn't the best at something. UNBALANCED GAME.

I'm not sure what else to say, because that is all the prior posts are saying. The game will probably work like PSO, in that the 'worse' classes at HU/RA (not casts, in other words) will have a better time solo'ing than the classes who are the 'best', while in a multiplayer environment, the better classes will have a breeze with a good support class with them. Of course, in PSO, androids were still easier to use than fleshies when solo'ing due to freeze traps.

All I see is people discussing what they think is better for balancing. I'm a CAST player, but I personally wouldn't mind if they were the worst at both Hunter and Force.
Not sure about the other races, but I think people just want CASTs to not be best at both Ranger AND Hunter, like in PSU.

On that note, I had a female CAST Fortefighter, and she did do good damage, but I always thought that beasts were stronger. O.o

Zynetic
Aug 12, 2011, 05:38 PM
Perhaps so, but Cast not being the best at two classes could cause balancing problems if Shifta and Deband are game changers like they were in PSO.

There are two things that should be took into consideration; solo'ing potential and party potential. In PSO, a HUnewearl was better at solo'ing than a HUmar, just because of access to 20 Shifta and Zalure (although HUcast was better than her due to having like 19xx ATP or something with S-Red's), but in party play a HUmar was obviously better with a supporter, as he had more ATP. The same concept could be done in PSO2, but that's only if they decide to make Shifta useful for ATP (because I noticed no difference in PSP2).

Of course, if Shifta doesn't make a massive difference in PSO2, disregard everything I just said.

EDIT: And I just realised you can switch classes in this game, so I'm gonna have to think about this harder.

Zyrusticae
Aug 12, 2011, 05:46 PM
Or they could just drop racial stat differences entirely and differentiate the races in some other manner.

The fact that discussion is happening amuses me. It seems like no one is considering the possibility that what occurred in the previous games is not going to repeat itself in this sequel.

Malachite
Aug 12, 2011, 05:53 PM
Having minimal racial differences defeats the purpose of having different races in the first place.

Woo everyone's the basically the same with minor difference in looks and maybe a special ability. Puuurdy lame.

Zyrusticae
Aug 12, 2011, 06:42 PM
Yet it's the norm for the industry in recent days.

Tera, for example, has only a handful of minor racial abilities as differentiating factors. FFXIV (failure or not, it's an example) has racial stat differences that only make a difference at level 1 - after that, they're irrelevant. And this is a game where one race is eight feet tall and another barely clears 3 feet. EVE Online used to have significant racial stat differences, but were entirely removed when they revamped the new player experience and added attribute remapping, and now race is pretty much almost (you still get different race-specific skills) entirely a cosmetic choice. Aion has only two races; the actual differentiation between characters is made through its absurdly robust character customization, with racial differences being limited entirely to a few skills here and there. Race does not exist as a concept in Champions Online, DC Universe Online, or APB Reloaded. Age of Conan's race differences are made through their available classes, not through stats (something irrelevant to PSO2 since now every race can be every class). Guild Wars 2's racial differences are through certain perks (war machines for Charr, golems for Asura, shapeshifting for Norns, and so on). Rift's racial differences are almost completely negligable (1% more damage, woopdy-friggin'-do!).

Take a moment and ask yourself - what do statistical racial differences actually add to the game? How much does it improve your enjoyment of it? Do you even notice them in actual play? Is it actually a positive aspect? Is there something it takes away? How much would you miss it, if it didn't exist? What was the whole point of having them in the first place?

And finally, is there a better way?

I don't claim to have the answer to that question. After all, I'm not on the design team. If I were a betting man, though - and I'm not -, I'd bet on races being differentiated some way other than raw statistical bonuses. The fact that they have FOCasts alone convinces me of this. You can't expect me to believe they would be able to balance the three(/six, assuming gender still plays a role) different FO types to make them all interesting and worth playing with significant racial stat differences. Someone is going to end up gimped, and that's just not a good feeling.

BIG OLAF
Aug 12, 2011, 06:57 PM
Huh, when did this thread turn into another "racial balance" argument? Things shifted gears pretty quick from "Beasts are cool" about two pages ago.

•Col•
Aug 12, 2011, 07:04 PM
If humans are second best rangers, that means newmans are still worst at everything but FO. And PSP2 still had humans losing out in everything. Third at hunter, third at ranger, second at underpowered force.

Wat. I said that with the current distribution of stats, Humans should be made to be the BEST Rangers in PSO2. And yeah, that'd mean that Newmans are kinda doomed to be the worst at both Hunter and Ranger. But oh well? This was what I was talking about with only having the 3 races... What do you suggest they do?

Humans have the balanced stats, thus they shouldn't be bad at any of the classes. Newmans have the best stats oriented to Force, and Casts have the best stats oriented to Hunters. If you raise the Newman's accuracy to make them good Rangers, that leaves Humans with 2 "meh" classes, and 1 where they're the worst. How is that any better than what you were complaining about?

So there. Casts should be the best Hunters. Newmans should be the best Forces.

And as a side... Humans definitely didn't lose out in PSP2... They had the highest defensive stats and were the best choice for the Vanguard class(unless you were just spamming traps).

EDIT:

Or they could just drop racial stat differences entirely and differentiate the races in some other manner.

They could do that.

But they aren't.

StriderTuna
Aug 12, 2011, 07:07 PM
For a human type race to excel in something wouldn't make them human as they were always the "Balanced" race, even back in the days of DnD. From what I saw of the classes in the games was that they were balanced, but not really specializing in much. And in most games, they can have more materials used on them, allowing perhaps better custom builds.

Hunters- Sure HUmar(l)s weren't fantastic at damage or have more tech ability but they didn't really suck at anything either.

Rangers- For a long time, RAmar was the way to go if you wanted sniping+techs and even after Newman forces were introduced they stood out as being able to take more punishment than them.

Forces: Until recently they were the best choice for support that won't die when an enemy sneezes on them.

Zyrusticae
Aug 12, 2011, 07:36 PM
Seriously, the way you guys are talking about it makes it seem inevitable that some choices become completely gimped.

Does there HAVE to be a "worst race" for every class? Do we really need to go down that path?

Why is it necessary that some choices have to be traps, existing only for the benefit of the stupid or the masochistic?

Someone explain this to me.

Masterflower
Aug 12, 2011, 08:04 PM
I say Sega should add in beast so that they can adjust the rebalancing like this. Beasts are best as a Hunter, Casts are best as a Ranger, and Newmans are best as a Force. Humans are balanced with all three classes.

•Col•
Aug 12, 2011, 08:18 PM
Seriously, the way you guys are talking about it makes it seem inevitable that some choices become completely gimped.

Does there HAVE to be a "worst race" for every class? Do we really need to go down that path?

Why is it necessary that some choices have to be traps, existing only for the benefit of the stupid or the masochistic?

Someone explain this to me.

It's like I said before.

The "worst race" for a class isn't really a bad thing. They're usually the most versatile, which like I said, is a big strength. But in the end, in a full party, it's better to be a specialist rather than a generalist.

It's the same reason why people complained about the Humans in PSU.

Zyrusticae
Aug 12, 2011, 09:02 PM
It's like I said before.

The "worst race" for a class isn't really a bad thing. They're usually the most versatile, which like I said, is a big strength. But in the end, in a full party, it's better to be a specialist rather than a generalist.

It's the same reason why people complained about the Humans in PSU.
Should probably avoid using the phrase "worst", then, as it has very strong negative connotations.

If the scale is from "most versatile" to "most specialized", then it isn't an absolute measurement of strength or viability. "Worst" is then a misnomer; "least specialized" sounds a lot less terrible.

At any rate, the variation cannot be too large between the "most versatile" and the "most specialized". As you said, versatility can only go so far in a team-based game. If the absolute highest numbers you can dish out as a "versatile" character are even 20% lower than the "specialized" character, it can drop you out of viability for competitive scenarios. Every action is a resource; it doesn't matter if you're 3/4 hunter and 3/4 force if your every action does 3/4 the damage or disruption or healing or whatever of the specialized characters. It's not like you suddenly get the ability to cast techniques and attack simultaneously for being a HUnewm/earl.

And there are other attributes besides merely attack power/accuracy/evasion (don't even know if this stat exists anymore)/defense/mental strength/technique power. Speed, for example, could easily be used for racial differentiation; you could give CASTs massive ATP and ATA but slow down their actual attack speed considerably, making them masters of burst damage. Maybe newmans can cast techniques faster than everyone else, rather than just having more TP. And so forth.

Really, the game is, and has already proven to be, quite a bit different from all previous entries. I say, expect the unexpected. Or even just expect big changes.

StriderTuna
Aug 12, 2011, 09:03 PM
I wonder if DnD forums has folks whining about how humans sucking because they don't specialize in a trait and insisting that they nerf elves and dwarves.

Also human's balanced defensive stats (in some games they have the highest def of their classes) can be quite a boon in some areas as they'd survive a mixed environment better than the other races.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 12, 2011, 09:07 PM
Yup, this thread has officially turned into a balancing discussion, Olaf. XD Seems it has run it's course, shall I suggest locking this thread and starting an actual balancing discussion thread?

and before I forget - Long live Beast women. :P

EDIT: Ah, semantics and connotation - gotta love them.

NoiseHERO
Aug 12, 2011, 09:17 PM
How to get a thread locked in any forum.

Just start throwing random insults when it goes off-topic, to make everything look worse than it is.



















You all suck.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 12, 2011, 09:20 PM
How to get a thread locked in any forum.

Just start throwing random insults when it goes off-topic, to make everything look worse than it is.



















You all suck.

hahahahahahahahaha....this comment actually made me wish there was a like button. XD

+1 internetz to you, sire. :P

Zyrusticae
Aug 12, 2011, 10:12 PM
I wonder if DnD forums has folks whining about how humans sucking because they don't specialize in a trait and insisting that they nerf elves and dwarves.
That's hilariously inaccurate.

Humans in 3e D&D are versatile and specialized. See, they can apply their bonus feat and skill points however they want to benefit their chosen class. To make it analogous to PSO, imagine if humans got to pick whatever attribute bonuses they wanted up to a limit, while newmans and CASTs had to deal with whatever they got. Humans would instantly become the best at everything. Which is pretty much how it went in 3e D&D; only in certain fringe cases was it a benefit to pick a race other than human.

Also, if you REALLY wanted to be accurate, consider the case of a multiclass fighter/mage. In 3e D&D doing this is tantamount to suicide. You see, mages (or wizards, whichever) progress at an exponential rate. Which means every single level past the first that you don't have loses you more and more power. Essentially, you would end up being a subpar fighter and a subpar mage. You attack less often, you hit less often, you do less damage, you have fewer spells to cast, the spells you CAN cast are lower level, and so on and so forth. The versatility wasn't even close to making up for the loss in power, and it's for this reason that 4e D&D scrapped the old multiclass system entirely.

NoiseHERO
Aug 12, 2011, 10:22 PM
I don't mind race traits... But I like the idea of everyone being able to do whatever they want in a unique way.

If I make some type of speedy short weapon based build I don't want to HAVE to be a Hunewm or a Fembot for the build to not suck or something.

ShadowDragon28
Aug 12, 2011, 10:33 PM
I'd rather Sakai brought in the Motavians and Dezorians from Algol as a playable race. Motavians can be "tanks" high attack, high def, average accuracy, low evade, and Dezorians would have high MST, high Evade, decent Accuracy, low attack, moderate defence; can be a great Force class

Motavian:
http://www.pscave.com/fanart/ps/nak/gryz.jpg
Dezorian:
http://www.100megsfree3.com/rune/ps_rpg/raja1.jpg

Tetsaru
Aug 12, 2011, 11:01 PM
It's like I said before.

The "worst race" for a class isn't really a bad thing. They're usually the most versatile, which like I said, is a big strength. But in the end, in a full party, it's better to be a specialist rather than a generalist.

It's the same reason why people complained about the Humans in PSU.

I meant to post this earlier, but a storm made me have to turn off the PC for a while... anyway...

This kind of stuff is why I keep stressing the point that each race and job needs to be able to do something completely unique that no other race or job can do.

Humans, Newmans, hybrid jobs, and Forces all suffered to varying extents in PSU because of things such as a lack of racial ability, lowered DPS, weapons with less useful PA's, etc. On top of that, a lot of different classes could use the same weapons, just different ranks and PA level caps, which essentially boiled down to almost nothing but stat-stacking, DPS potential, and how effectively you could use them at varying ranges. Add in the fact that there was really a lot of redundancy in how each weapon performed (for example, sword's Tornado Break vs. spear's Dus Robado vs. doublesaber's Gravity Dance vs. twin dagger's Renkai Buyou-zan, or rifle's normal shot vs. bow's normal shot), and the fact that some stats just didn't carry much weight, and then it becomes apparent why certain jobs, races, and weapons/PA's became superior - there just wasn't enough differentiation and uniqueness to them.

I know I haven't played PSU since PC/PS2 went down, and I'm not familiar with any of the Supplemental Update or GAS changes or whatever the hell they're called, but I remember how Fighgunner used to be the ONLY job that could use doublesabers, and then Fighmaster got them and could use them better, and then I think later on, the other hybrid jobs (Guntecher and Wartecher) also gained access to A rank(?) versions of them... why, though?? At that point, you're imbalancing the game and removing a unique aspect of a job. It would've made more sense to me that FI would get unique access to slicers (closest thing to melee + range), WT probably would've been more like Acrofighter (range-mags for tech damage + melee weapons), and GT could've had bows that rely on TP for damage instead of ATP... something like that.

TL;DR version: You lose the "roles" of an RPG when everyone can do the same things, but some people can do it better. Everyone needs to do something unique, otherwise the "roles" turn into "awesome character" and "lame character"... or possibly "elitist" and "noob" to some people... :rolleyes:

StriderTuna
Aug 13, 2011, 01:08 AM
That's hilariously inaccurate.

Humans in 3e D&D are versatile and specialized. See, they can apply their bonus feat and skill points however they want to benefit their chosen class. To make it analogous to PSO, imagine if humans got to pick whatever attribute bonuses they wanted up to a limit, while newmans and CASTs had to deal with whatever they got. Humans would instantly become the best at everything. Which is pretty much how it went in 3e D&D; only in certain fringe cases was it a benefit to pick a race other than human.

Also, if you REALLY wanted to be accurate, consider the case of a multiclass fighter/mage. In 3e D&D doing this is tantamount to suicide. You see, mages (or wizards, whichever) progress at an exponential rate. Which means every single level past the first that you don't have loses you more and more power. Essentially, you would end up being a subpar fighter and a subpar mage. You attack less often, you hit less often, you do less damage, you have fewer spells to cast, the spells you CAN cast are lower level, and so on and so forth. The versatility wasn't even close to making up for the loss in power, and it's for this reason that 4e D&D scrapped the old multiclass system entirely.

Well the cloest thing PSO/Z/U/Po has is the increased cap of materials compared to the other two races; 100 vs 80.



I'd rather Sakai brought in the Motavians and Dezorians from Algol as a playable race. Motavians can be "tanks" high attack, high def, average accuracy, low evade, and Dezorians would have high MST, high Evade, decent Accuracy, low attack, moderate defence; can be a great Force class

Motavian:
http://www.pscave.com/fanart/ps/nak/gryz.jpg
Dezorian:
http://www.100megsfree3.com/rune/ps_rpg/raja1.jpg

That'd be a pretty cool thing to see, and a nice treat for classic PS fans.


I meant to post this earlier, but a storm made me have to turn off the PC for a while... anyway...

This kind of stuff is why I keep stressing the point that each race and job needs to be able to do something completely unique that no other race or job can do.

Humans, Newmans, hybrid jobs, and Forces all suffered to varying extents in PSU because of things such as a lack of racial ability, lowered DPS, weapons with less useful PA's, etc. On top of that, a lot of different classes could use the same weapons, just different ranks and PA level caps, which essentially boiled down to almost nothing but stat-stacking, DPS potential, and how effectively you could use them at varying ranges. Add in the fact that there was really a lot of redundancy in how each weapon performed (for example, sword's Tornado Break vs. spear's Dus Robado vs. doublesaber's Gravity Dance vs. twin dagger's Renkai Buyou-zan, or rifle's normal shot vs. bow's normal shot), and the fact that some stats just didn't carry much weight, and then it becomes apparent why certain jobs, races, and weapons/PA's became superior - there just wasn't enough differentiation and uniqueness to them.

I know I haven't played PSU since PC/PS2 went down, and I'm not familiar with any of the Supplemental Update or GAS changes or whatever the hell they're called, but I remember how Fighgunner used to be the ONLY job that could use doublesabers, and then Fighmaster got them and could use them better, and then I think later on, the other hybrid jobs (Guntecher and Wartecher) also gained access to A rank(?) versions of them... why, though?? At that point, you're imbalancing the game and removing a unique aspect of a job. It would've made more sense to me that FI would get unique access to slicers (closest thing to melee + range), WT probably would've been more like Acrofighter (range-mags for tech damage + melee weapons), and GT could've had bows that rely on TP for damage instead of ATP... something like that.

TL;DR version: You lose the "roles" of an RPG when everyone can do the same things, but some people can do it better. Everyone needs to do something unique, otherwise the "roles" turn into "awesome character" and "lame character"... or possibly "elitist" and "noob" to some people... :rolleyes:

I know what you're talking about as some Final Fantasies had that problem, mainly 8. Outside of limit breaks and weapons, there was no strong differences, with weapons being a weaker one.


I don't mind race traits... But I like the idea of everyone being able to do whatever they want in a unique way.

If I make some type of speedy short weapon based build I don't want to HAVE to be a Hunewm or a Fembot for the build to not suck or something.

Well humans never really sucked in the PSOish games, just not excelled at much.

RemiusTA
Aug 13, 2011, 01:37 AM
lolhumar

iirc they excelled at the game



Seriously, the way you guys are talking about it makes it seem inevitable that some choices become completely gimped.

Does there HAVE to be a "worst race" for every class? Do we really need to go down that path?

Why is it necessary that some choices have to be traps, existing only for the benefit of the stupid or the masochistic?

Someone explain this to me.


I dont get what the issue is. An Airsoft pistol is the "worse weapon" you can probably bring to a military operation. A short, skinny person is the "worst build" you could possibly bring to a heavyweight boxing match.


Tell me, what is the point of having different races if they dont excel at certian things and lack in others? Personally, having everyone around be me a jack of all trades is really no fun. I'd much rather me suck at one thing and excel at my own unique craft.

Be good at what you're good at, branch out the best you can, but to each their own. You can't do everything. Unless you'd rather be mediocre in everything instead of exceptional at something.


If newmans are smaller framed with higher photon sensitivity, then they are GOING to make the best force class, whether you like being a human/cast or not. If humans are more accurate than you, they're GOING to make better marksmen than you. If casts are more dense and powerful than you, they're GOING to do more damage with a striking weapon than you are.


A dog is not going to beat a cat in a vertical jumping contest. A sled run by domesticated cats is not going to beat a sled run by domesticated dogs. The kid with the 4.0 GPA is going to be adored by the teachers, the kid who can run a quick mile is going to be adored by the athletes. It's just how life goes.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2011, 04:53 AM
I think the question here is about relative strength vs absolute strength.

There is no debate that races should have relative strengths compared to each other. However, the grey area lies in whether there should be a "best" race for a class.

Idealistically, the answer should be no - every race should have something to offer for a given class. Taking Forces, for example. If say, Cast FOs had boosts to melee abilities, Human FOs to support techs and Newmans to offensive techs, then every race would technically be "best" at something.

Realistically though, the answer is inevitably yes. After years of debate, number crunching, TAing etc, certain advantages may be rendered obsolete. Others may be weighted higher than others. For example, on PSO there was a damage cancel bug, where if multiple players hit a target at the same time, only the damage of one player will be registered. This effectively rendered offensive AoE techs useless, because high enemy resists in Ultimate difficulty meant they usually hit for less than say, Charge or Berserk Shotguns, Swords, Needles or Partisans. Because of that, the metagame shifted towards support-oriented Fonewearls and Melee FOs, who could do high damage to single targets to mitigate damage cancel and heal the real damage dealers. Fonewms became an unpopular class.

Even then, there were other factors. Female FOs had higher ATP access to great melee weapons like Vivienne and Principal's Gift Parasol, and doubled Resta and Anti range, making them great in the support role. The parasol also happened to increase buff range, putting Fonewearl buff range on par with Fomars. Effectively, Fomars also got the short end of the stick.

So what's the point of this history lesson? First, that while there should be racial differences within a class, they should be balanced enough to make every race seem like the "best" at first. Second, that there inevitably will be a "best" race for a class if a game remains static, like PSOBB did. And third, that Sega has a history of shooting themselves in the foot when making balance decisions. Unlike PSOBB, PSU did not remain static - it continually received updates that changed classes up. Unfortunately, they were almost always in the wrong direction - giving a diverse class like WT yet another crummy A-rank option time and time again, or giving specialized classes like Fortetecher the option to become even more specialized with Masterforce, thereby making Fortetecher obsolete.

I really really hope Sega will actively monitor the metagame and make changes in the right direction instead of giving out race/class boosts based on which section of a dartboard a dev managed to hit.

Stezan
Aug 13, 2011, 06:19 AM
I meant to post this earlier, but a storm made me have to turn off the PC for a while... anyway...

This kind of stuff is why I keep stressing the point that each race and job needs to be able to do something completely unique that no other race or job can do.

Humans, Newmans, hybrid jobs, and Forces all suffered to varying extents in PSU because of things such as a lack of racial ability, lowered DPS, weapons with less useful PA's, etc. On top of that, a lot of different classes could use the same weapons, just different ranks and PA level caps, which essentially boiled down to almost nothing but stat-stacking, DPS potential, and how effectively you could use them at varying ranges. Add in the fact that there was really a lot of redundancy in how each weapon performed (for example, sword's Tornado Break vs. spear's Dus Robado vs. doublesaber's Gravity Dance vs. twin dagger's Renkai Buyou-zan, or rifle's normal shot vs. bow's normal shot), and the fact that some stats just didn't carry much weight, and then it becomes apparent why certain jobs, races, and weapons/PA's became superior - there just wasn't enough differentiation and uniqueness to them.

I know I haven't played PSU since PC/PS2 went down, and I'm not familiar with any of the Supplemental Update or GAS changes or whatever the hell they're called, but I remember how Fighgunner used to be the ONLY job that could use doublesabers, and then Fighmaster got them and could use them better, and then I think later on, the other hybrid jobs (Guntecher and Wartecher) also gained access to A rank(?) versions of them... why, though?? At that point, you're imbalancing the game and removing a unique aspect of a job. It would've made more sense to me that FI would get unique access to slicers (closest thing to melee + range), WT probably would've been more like Acrofighter (range-mags for tech damage + melee weapons), and GT could've had bows that rely on TP for damage instead of ATP... something like that.

TL;DR version: You lose the "roles" of an RPG when everyone can do the same things, but some people can do it better. Everyone needs to do something unique, otherwise the "roles" turn into "awesome character" and "lame character"... or possibly "elitist" and "noob" to some people... :rolleyes:

I've begun to believe that specialized abilities are the best way to make each combination viable as well. In PSO, Forces did this better than Hunters and Rangers by having Tech bonuses. So while initially, a Newman would appear to make a better FO, Stats and Special Abilities helped create niches for each of the 4 classes. If the development team can make interesting, unique, and useful skill trees, that could alleviate some of the issues of pure stat stacking that PSU relied more on.

To bring this back to beasts, while I don't really miss them (if they are in fact gone), it could be really interesting to see them in a PSO artstyle armor as I have been nothing but pleased with all the character designs so far.

Zyrusticae
Aug 13, 2011, 07:55 AM
It's just how life goes.
lolreallifeinavidyagame

Y'know what? I play games to get away from RL. Pretty sure lots of folks are in the same boat.

And, you may not have realized this, but, using this logic, you can justify slavery. Also racial profiling/discrimination/stereotyping. Also all manner of terrible things that happen IRL because that's "just how life goes".

'That's how it is' is absolutely the worst logic for justifying anything, ever. It is indisputably a terrible, terrible way to think. That's the kind of logic that keeps people from accomplishing anything. The kind of logic that justifies sloth, insensitivity, or just plain inaction. I am utterly aghast that anyone would ever use such a line of logic.

My disgust at this absolutely terrible logic aside, the obvious solution to your proposed issue of "everybody's the same!" is to give players a lot of personal customization, which provides far more variety than racial stat variation. I imagine there's not a whole lot to complain about if you get to choose your starting attribute spread, specialize in distinct skills (they've said as much - you can't max out all your skills, you must specialize) and weapon types, and have some level of personalization available for the gear itself. Keep in mind player characters are supposed to be exceptional individuals, NOT the baseline for "normal" people. There's a lot of leeway they get that NPCs would not, simply by virtue of being PCs. Thus, imposing the same limitations on them as NPCs would simply be criminal.

Also,

I don't mind race traits... But I like the idea of everyone being able to do whatever they want in a unique way.

If I make some type of speedy short weapon based build I don't want to HAVE to be a Hunewm or a Fembot for the build to not suck or something.

[...]
TL;DR version: You lose the "roles" of an RPG when everyone can do the same things, but some people can do it better. Everyone needs to do something unique, otherwise the "roles" turn into "awesome character" and "lame character"... or possibly "elitist" and "noob" to some people... :rolleyes:

[...]
I really really hope Sega will actively monitor the metagame and make changes in the right direction instead of giving out race/class boosts based on which section of a dartboard a dev managed to hit.
IAWTP

Pillan
Aug 13, 2011, 08:40 AM
A dog is not going to beat a cat in a vertical jumping contest. A sled run by domesticated cats is not going to beat a sled run by domesticated dogs. The kid with the 4.0 GPA is going to be adored by the teachers, the kid who can run a quick mile is going to be adored by the athletes. It's just how life goes.

You can easily set up those examples with different breeds of cat and dog to prove the opposite true. Or even different ages. And, of course, in the case of an athlete versus a model student, both the athlete and model student are human, which would be an argument for extreme versatility within a race, essentially eliminating the idea of racial stats.

But I agree entirely with Zyrusticae that there is a lot more room for unique characters through the class customization system then any race/class/gender combination system. It does reduce racial and gender choices down to personal preference, but it also kills the constant dissatisfaction in the fact that Newman Hunter, Cast Force, and human everything feel useless.

With that said, I do wonder how much class abilities add relative to racial stats. Hopefully it is enough to overcome any base stat gaps.

Also, I have to say that I am very against speed bonuses unless the gaps between the speed race/class and the standard are at least as wide as Fortefighter to Acrofighter or HUcast to HUcaseal. Otherwise, you end up with the Wartecher/Acrotecher or Master class/everything else situation again.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 13, 2011, 10:48 AM
lolhumar

iirc they excelled at the game.

DAMMIT! I LOST!


Moving on,

I'm glad I took those philosophy classes, it seems that they'll be very useful in the coming posts.

But, just throwing my two cents in, I would like to see the material system that I experinced in PSZ return, only give the Humans 120 instead of 100. I think that they should have a larger boost. It just didn't really feel like all that much of a boost at 100, in my humble opinion.

Omega-z
Aug 13, 2011, 11:28 AM
The Best thing they could do is have Special Abilities in the Skill/Tech Tree for each Type/Race/Gender that only each one can do. Then have stat's secondary , So not to over shadow the Type/Race/Gender option for everyone. And to Save time for all the Balance for new races if it was set on more Special Abilities in the Skill/Tech Tree and not on stat's. So, yes there is a Possibility that more than 3 races can be used if done right. The easy route would be just to make them into Clothing/Part for the three race's and one for Mag's.

StriderTuna
Aug 13, 2011, 01:36 PM
I think humans might benefit from being able to choose 2-3 "focuses" to help mix things up, such as say a MST/ATP focused HUmarl would get some bonuses towards techs/force weapons and melee weapons, making her different than say one that focused more on other stats.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 13, 2011, 09:23 PM
I think humans might benefit from being able to choose 2-3 "focuses" to help mix things up, such as say a MST/ATP focused HUmarl would get some bonuses towards techs/force weapons and melee weapons, making her different than say one that focused more on other stats.

Not a bad idea, actually. Make that a human exclusive, and then the Casts could have their little boost and proficiency with guns, and Neumans could have their adeptness with Techs and pointy ears.....

....what? That's a legitimate racial trait!



EDIT: Ah, and Zyru, while I understand where you're coming from with foregoing stat differences all together, I don't think that is a very good direction to take this franchise. We're talking about a game with Humans, space elves, and giant walking refrigerators for pity's sake. It stands to reason that the space elves are better with arrows and the frigs are better at keeping things cold. That just how it works.

....What? why are you all looking at me like I'm crazy?

....anyone up for a cold soda?

.....But in all seriousness. It does make sense that certain races are better at certain jobs than others. Neumans are more spirtual / more connected to Photons, Casts are specifically tuned to have steady hands, and maybe an auto-lock (or something ranger-y) and Humans are the most physically built. It's really the reason that there are multiple races. Well, that and looks.

Dongra
Aug 13, 2011, 09:46 PM
Humans are the most physically builtI think you associated this trait with the wrong race.

RedRaz0r
Aug 13, 2011, 09:58 PM
I think you associated this trait with the wrong race.

Yeah, he meant Casts!

RemiusTA
Aug 13, 2011, 10:06 PM
You can easily set up those examples with different breeds of cat and dog to prove the opposite true. Or even different ages. And, of course, in the case of an athlete versus a model student, both the athlete and model student are human, which would be an argument for extreme versatility within a race, essentially eliminating the idea of racial stats.

On average (as in, taking all breeds into consideration), Dogs are far more powerful than cats because they are more massive. Cats are well known to be far more nimble; these demonstrate racial strengths and weaknesses. Athletes and Scholars are a demonstration of how a person can be efficient at one thing at the cost of not being efficient at another. If you want to become a great scientist, then your research time will cut into your training for becoming a marathon runner. Time is finite for us. This wouldn't be so true if we lived forever, but because we do not, if we want to become great at something than we have to allocate our time.


Now, technicalities and little tiny holes can so definitely be ignored. Im really not about to go anymore indepth talking about dogs, cats, lions, wolves, maine coons or quantum physics like in that last stupid topic i took part in.


But I agree entirely with Zyrusticae that there is a lot more room for unique characters through the class customization system then any race/class/gender combination system. It does reduce racial and gender choices down to personal preference, but it also kills the constant dissatisfaction in the fact that Newman Hunter, Cast Force, and human everything feel useless.
Im quite sure they'll have some kind of ability that the others do not. Does that mean you're going to outdamage the Humar or Hucast? Most likely, no, you are not, because Newmans are not Melee damage dealers, they are Technique damage dealers.

Does that mean you'll be a great support character? Most likely yes, you will. Being a newman you'll probably be versatile in techniques, so certian issues like melee resistance or accuracy, which will likely be a hurdle for Humars or Hucasts, can be overcome.

In this sense it becomes less of a "best class" situation and more of a "better suited class" situation, which was always the case in PSO. And if that doesn't fly with some of you, then i just suggest you stop whining so much because you cannot be helped.


My greatest example would be PSO's Ramarl. Ramarl's had TERRIBLY shitty damage in PSO starting out. I remember getting to the caves with 3 friends and doing single digit damage off charge shots with a Rifle. But as you keep using her, you slowly start to realize, "Oh hey, my technic damage is on par with the force! Maybe i should use my TP-stealing weapon and use techniques!", or "Wow, if i use the elemental shot im actually outdamaging the hunter on the team!", or, "I can freeze/confuse/paralyze the enemies for my teammates", or "This Dim/Shadow rifle makes me a just as efficient (if not more at some lucky points) killer than the other players on my team, without drawing a SINGLE point of damage!"


Weak as fuck, still useful. The reason i say PSO was far more in-depth than PSU is because it had emergent qualities out the ass in its combat engine, and the classes took advantage of that. Using METAGAME as an indicator before the game even releases though is a terrible idea, though. People need to stop doing that. At least until the alpha/beta comes along. There just isn't enough info to tell when something will or wont work well.

I cant stress that enough. Saying "Humar has higher ATP and access to technics, and Hunewm will have lower ATP than all of them and technics weaker than fonewm, so Hunewm will suck" is stupid because we don't know the differences between the two. We can ASSUME them, but we do not know them. So saying "i dont want class or racial system because i want a newman fighter who has big numbars" is kind of silly right now.


...well, it's a silly request anyway. Once again, people need to learn to not whine about dumb little things like that. Newman, Melee, and Big Numbars, by definition, do not mix.





lolreallifeinavidyagame

Y'know what? I play games to get away from RL. Pretty sure lots of folks are in the same boat.

And, you may not have realized this, but, using this logic, you can justify slavery. Also racial profiling/discrimination/stereotyping. Also all manner of terrible things that happen IRL because that's "just how life goes".
Heh. Hehe. Hehehahah. Hahahaha...

....What??




'That's how it is' is absolutely the worst logic for justifying anything, ever. It is indisputably a terrible, terrible way to think. That's the kind of logic that keeps people from accomplishing anything. The kind of logic that justifies sloth, insensitivity, or just plain inaction. I am utterly aghast that anyone would ever use such a line of logic. Pessimism, laziness and bad life experiences are some of what can cause those things. Realizing the REALITY that your time is indeed finite and you were born into a world with specific strengths and weaknesses out of your control is simply called being wise.

It's not what you're given that counts, it's what you do with it. And thus the "reality" of what you were both with is yours to mold with the finite time you have on the planet. Whether you live or die before you prove your point, or whether it works in the first place is up to many things. Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. thought that in less than 50 years after his assassination, the president of the country that hated him would be of the race he was fighting to advance? Highly, highly doubtful.






My disgust at this absolutely terrible logic aside, the obvious solution to your proposed issue of "everybody's the same!" is to give players a lot of personal customization, which provides far more variety than racial stat variation. I imagine there's not a whole lot to complain about if you get to choose your starting attribute spread, specialize in distinct skills (they've said as much - you can't max out all your skills, you must specialize) and weapon types, and have some level of personalization available for the gear itself. Keep in mind player characters are supposed to be exceptional individuals, NOT the baseline for "normal" people. There's a lot of leeway they get that NPCs would not, simply by virtue of being PCs. Thus, imposing the same limitations on them as NPCs would simply be criminal.I really dont even know how to respond to this, because i dont think it really even follows what we were talking about. Im just saying that you continuously push for "ultimate customization" when it really isn't even necessary half the time, nor does it really make that big a difference.


And it's worth pointing out that this is not Phantasy Star Portable 2. A Female Newman Force isn't a Female Newman Force. She's a Fonewearl. A Human Male Hunter is a Humar. And if it indeed is taking cues from PSO (which i really hope it is), then your starting character WILL be given walls on advancement in certian areas. The point, however, is to make the best out of what your class has. While you feel limited in one area compared to others, you excel in ways others can not. I dont remember anyone ever looking at PSO and saying "MAN i just with my fomar could use that sword". And if they DO say it, they'll quickly forget about it, as they have access to weapon classes and abilities that other classes will never gain access to.


And that, my friend, is what you could call individuality. Or being Unique. Or whatever you want to call it. I personally see no reason in allowing players to butcher their class apart just for the sake of being able to.


I understand freedom, but honestly, some well-placed rules and restrictions benefit the game better than this idea of just throwing them all out the window.

yoshiblue
Aug 13, 2011, 10:12 PM
Ah nice. Oh you and your quantum physics

NoiseHERO
Aug 13, 2011, 10:22 PM
But ultimate customization...

IS RIGHT THHEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! D8

RemiusTA
Aug 13, 2011, 10:31 PM
Ah nice. Oh you and your quantum physics

This actually made me laugh irl

Gleason
Aug 13, 2011, 11:37 PM
I liked the beast women well enough; hell, my main in PSU was a Fortefighter Beast F.

To be honest, though, I'm wondering about those subclasses. Going back to PSU again for a moment, I had an AF alt and I loved how they had the speed boost. It'd be awesome if there was a race combo or subclass that had a similar bonus.

I'd still love to nibble on some Newman ears though sometime. Oh yeah.

StriderTuna
Aug 14, 2011, 01:43 AM
Not a bad idea, actually. Make that a human exclusive, and then the Casts could have their little boost and proficiency with guns, and Neumans could have their adeptness with Techs and pointy ears.....

....what? That's a legitimate racial trait!



EDIT: Ah, and Zyru, while I understand where you're coming from with foregoing stat differences all together, I don't think that is a very good direction to take this franchise. We're talking about a game with Humans, space elves, and giant walking refrigerators for pity's sake. It stands to reason that the space elves are better with arrows and the frigs are better at keeping things cold. That just how it works.

....What? why are you all looking at me like I'm crazy?

....anyone up for a cold soda?

.....But in all seriousness. It does make sense that certain races are better at certain jobs than others. Neumans are more spirtual / more connected to Photons, Casts are specifically tuned to have steady hands, and maybe an auto-lock (or something ranger-y) and Humans are the most physically built. It's really the reason that there are multiple races. Well, that and looks.

That was my plan as humans being naturally born and grown can vary in their training and as such end up varying much. I think they should keep the 100 material cap as well as both things would cover how humans adjust to things.

And it'd give incentive to play as humans as they'd be more "customizable" than newman or cast.

•Col•
Aug 14, 2011, 02:23 AM
That was my plan as humans being naturally born and grown can vary in their training and as such end up varying much. I think they should keep the 100 material cap as well as both things would cover how humans adjust to things.

And it'd give incentive to play as humans as they'd be more "customizable" than newman or cast.

No, that's not fair at all. Now I'm going to be pigeonholed into being a human!? Just to get the stats I WANT and DESERVE?? UNACCEPTABLE!

There has to be FULL customization of stats for EVERY race. *pounds fists on desk* I won't stand for anything less!!!

Selphea
Aug 14, 2011, 03:00 AM
I wouldn't advise fighting giving stats to a human to overcome a raw stat advantage of other classes - that simply puts the races in direct competition so one race will still end up dominant.

In most RPGs though, the main advantages of humans are their creativity, adaptability and skill. In PSO2 terms, this can be reflected as letting players choose 1 tech weapon, 1 melee weapon and 1 ranged weapon that will receive a bonus to critical hit rate. It's kind of like letting them choose a stat focus, but doesn't put them in direct competition with other races. Races with a raw stat advantage will still do better than humans in for a given weapon group, but for specific weapons, humans would work best, and choosing 1 weapon from each weapon group would fit well with hybrid characters that make use of more than 1 type of damage.

Newmans in Phantasy Star have also been portrayed as highly agile and great dagger/claw users. I hope Sega can translate this into real game terms, like giving Newmans great Ranged ATP and making light weapons like claws and daggers run off Ranged ATP (Slicers are most likely going to be ranged weapons running off Melee ATP anyway). After that, pair it with a further Newman racial related to light weapons, like a damage boost to claws and daggers that gives them a 1% to 2% advantage over the next best race.

I have a feeling though, Sega is just going to cop out and go Cast = Ranger, Human = Hunter, Newman = Force and give us more wallpapers of scantily clad Hunewearls posing with claws.

Side note: I thought Ramarl was OP. Had access to great melee weapons like Vivienne or Parasol for ranged-resistant lizards, Frozen Shooter for great CC. Had access to force weapons like that one wand which increased debuff range. Also had the 2nd highest ATA in the game so she would miss less, letting her keep mobs stunlocked and use Charge/Spirit/Berserk effectively to match the DPS of other classes. Add to that buffs and debuffs that probably gave her the highest solo DPS without photon blasting. I actually stopped playing my Ramarl at around level 130 because the game felt like ezmode.

StriderTuna
Aug 14, 2011, 03:22 AM
Well the intent wasn't so much trying to copy the other races but to create niches that ether couldn't cover; after Humans may seem pretty meh compared to the other races which specialize in things, built in trap vision (casts), and natural regen.

A DEF/MST HUmar may be a super tanky set up, but would pale compared to HUcasts in damage.

The reason I made such a notion human only as A) it'd help them stand out other races with their bells and whistle and B) Compared to specially made Casts and Newmen, Humans will try to add their own touch/style.

Though I wonder what other ideas might be possible.

Hucast-Kireek
Aug 14, 2011, 04:06 AM
To the title of this topic,

its called PSO2 not PSU2. heh.

NightHour13
Aug 14, 2011, 12:00 PM
I saw something in the beginning of this topic that said something about Dumans, seed altered humans I think?

Maybe i got the wrong impression but at the end of PSO Episode 3 there's a giant egg boss and I thought that was the tie-in they used in PSO to mention where the seed had come from. The overall boss (and the things that infected pollux and castor) was the seed...wasnt it? This was the new energy they found in the cards...etc...Or am I dead wrong and it was just a giant egg monster!!!

...Maybe dumans can show up?

Selphea
Aug 14, 2011, 12:53 PM
Well the intent wasn't so much trying to copy the other races but to create niches that ether couldn't cover; after Humans may seem pretty meh compared to the other races which specialize in things, built in trap vision (casts), and natural regen.

A DEF/MST HUmar may be a super tanky set up, but would pale compared to HUcasts in damage.

The reason I made such a notion human only as A) it'd help them stand out other races with their bells and whistle and B) Compared to specially made Casts and Newmen, Humans will try to add their own touch/style.

Though I wonder what other ideas might be possible.

That idea might work if the game was designed such that stats other than offensive stats mattered. Judging by Sega's track record though, they don't usually matter, except HP in large amounts. This means everyone is going to stack ATP and/or TP and it'll end up being highest ATP = best fighter, highest TP = best caster.

That's because Phantasy Star games aren't built around the traditional Tank-Healer-DPS mechanic. Instead, it adopts a Guild Wars 2-esque Control-Support-DPS mechanic (10 years ahead of its time! :O) This means abilities that tend to carry more weight are either those that contribute to DPS, those that can be used for crowd control e.g. Freezes, Silences etc or buffs that help your party do more DPS or crowd control.

So as far as racials are concerned, IMO they should be oriented towards abilities that improve a characters DPS, crowd control or let them support better. There are many ways to implement these 3 mechanics apart from stats, which as I said in the previous post, avoids a direct stat vs stat competition on one hand, and on the other, gives races a truly unique niche that no other race can fill.

One example: give Humans a racial called "Backstab" - Humans suck so hard in direct confrontations that they learned to fight dirty, a concept completely alien to Casts who are too used to being OP, and to Newmans, who are too innocent to comprehend due to their age. This grants them a 30% bonus to crit rate for doing it from behind!

This is an ability that can possibly make Humans the "best" DPSers. But it is conditional - the player has to spend time getting behind monsters, so it's not immediately obvious who is the "best" now. My suggestion in the previous post was also conditional - the player has to equip specific weapons.

I hope this explains why I don't think humans should get a base stat specialization option, and also shows how conditional bonuses can allow multiple races to excel at a class without putting each other out of business. Because if we're seeing FOcasts, it probably means Casts hunters and rangers are going to get techs and lose their traps and trap vision. Either that, or techs will be restricted to Force-only until hybrid classes. We're also going to get 6 options per class instead of 4 in PSO2. If Sega doesn't differentiate races well enough, I forsee a big mess in FOcast vs HUnewearl vs HUnewm vs HUmarl if Hunters and Rangers get techs, because these 4 are going to be very similar. If not, then it's a done deal - Cast Hunter/Ranger, Newman Force, everyone else gtfo of my party.


...Maybe dumans can show up?

PSO Newmans were created using the D-Factor, which is the PSO equivalent of SEED =x

BIG OLAF
Aug 14, 2011, 12:54 PM
its called PSO2 not PSU2. heh.

Considering PSO2 doesn't have a whole lot in common with PSO, I find this to be a moot point.

Zyrusticae
Aug 14, 2011, 01:05 PM
...well, it's a silly request anyway. Once again, people need to learn to not whine about dumb little things like that. Newman, Melee, and Big Numbars, by definition, do not mix.
Nonsense.

My newman fortefighter was more than capable of BIG NUMBARZZZ!!!111one!! She was just blatantly inferior (and thus, a big target for annoying elitists). This wasn't a problem because PSU was fuggin' easy.

I look forward to seeing how PSO2 handles this. I imagine I am not the only one in this boat.



Heh. Hehe. Hehehahah. Hahahaha...

....What??
"THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS. DEAL WITH IT." (Apply this to every single one of the above-mentioned scenarios.)

Seriously? You couldn't pick that up?

I thought it was bloody obvious.


Pessimism, laziness and bad life experiences are some of what can cause those things. Realizing the REALITY that your time is indeed finite and you were born into a world with specific strengths and weaknesses out of your control is simply called being wise.

It's not what you're given that counts, it's what you do with it. And thus the "reality" of what you were both with is yours to mold with the finite time you have on the planet. Whether you live or die before you prove your point, or whether it works in the first place is up to many things. Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. thought that in less than 50 years after his assassination, the president of the country that hated him would be of the race he was fighting to advance? Highly, highly doubtful.
That's all well and good and all, but this has absolutely no bearing on what should go into a VIDEO GAME.

See, IRL, you have to deal with the hand you're dealt with. That is indisputably true. You never get a choice in the matter. You don't choose who your parents are, what your heritage is, what your race is, your phenotype, your body's built-in resistances, none of those. Your influence on those things are heavily limited.

But then there's the video games. See, with video games, you do get to choose. You get to choose EVERYTHING. You choose what your race is, you choose what you look like, you choose what your skills specialize in, and you can do so with minimal opportunity cost. IRL, to acquire a sword and train with it costs hundreds of dollars and many, MANY hours of time. A game? Not so much.

So tell me, then, why should there exist choices that are obviously inferior and exist almost purely as traps for uninformed players?

But hey, y'know, you're actually right about the meta and how little we know about it right now. We don't know how effective techniques are, or how much they actually contribute when used by a class other than FOs. We don't even know how the racial differences will be spread out this time around. If we did, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. And we definitely don't know what kinds of special stuff weapons may or may not possess.

Really sucks having to speculate about all this junk. Feels like crawling around in the dark.


I really dont even know how to respond to this, because i dont think it really even follows what we were talking about. Im just saying that you continuously push for "ultimate customization" when it really isn't even necessary half the time, nor does it really make that big a difference.
Opinions, man.

Opinions. :wacko:

Obviously, I have very different priorities from you. I would appreciate it if you didn't downplay them with statements like "it [doesn't] really make that big a difference".

Because it DOES make that big a difference. To me.

[spoiler-box]
And it's worth pointing out that this is not Phantasy Star Portable 2. A Female Newman Force isn't a Female Newman Force. She's a Fonewearl. A Human Male Hunter is a Humar. And if it indeed is taking cues from PSO (which i really hope it is), then your starting character WILL be given walls on advancement in certian areas. The point, however, is to make the best out of what your class has. While you feel limited in one area compared to others, you excel in ways others can not. I dont remember anyone ever looking at PSO and saying "MAN i just with my fomar could use that sword". And if they DO say it, they'll quickly forget about it, as they have access to weapon classes and abilities that other classes will never gain access to.


And that, my friend, is what you could call individuality. Or being Unique. Or whatever you want to call it. I personally see no reason in allowing players to butcher their class apart just for the sake of being able to.
[/spoiler-box]
I think you're expecting too much.

Right now, there's a total of 3 classes in the game, with 6 race/gender variants per class. Do you really think they'll manage to make each and every single variation unique in some way?

And, let's see, there's a total of 18 variants if you count each race/gender variation individually. If there's, oh, say, 100,000 players besides you, guess how many of them are going to share your exact same race/gender/class type? That's not individuality. That's not uniqueness.

It's just a choice. A simple choice you made that thousands of other players will share.

And saying customization would let players "butcher" their class seems like a reach. Customization obviously has huge variance in how far it can go. For example, I doubt PSO2 will go down the road of, say, Diablo 2, where there are hundreds of thousands of possible skill builds per class. That WOULD let you "butcher" your class (and, hell, people did it all the time in D2, often unknowingly). What I'm thinking of is what SEGA did with PSU's guardian update and other such things. I don't think that's asking too much, is it?


I understand freedom, but honestly, some well-placed rules and restrictions benefit the game better than this idea of just throwing them all out the window.
And again, you make some pretty crazy assumptions. Having high (uber-high, even) customization does not mean no rules and restrictions. I never advocated throwing everything out like that. That's just Incredibly Silly. It'd be nice if you didn't exaggerate or misrepresent so often.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 14, 2011, 01:24 PM
I think you associated this trait with the wrong race.

No, I'm talking about what I believe would be best for balancing, not how things are / were.


Yeah, he meant Casts!

No, no I didn't.

I appreciate the joking and all, btw. :P

Anyway, I'm being serious about what I think would be better. Just explain that Casts focused on being precise and what-not, so they're more fragile. Many real world pieces of equipment that are fine tuned for precision are very delicate and fragile.

And before I get dog-piled by people saying "It's a game." Yes, I know this, but I'm using a real-world train of thought to justify my opinion on things. Heck, I love being a walking space cooler, I love the fact that Casts have multiple strengths...

...but it isn't balanced.

Giving humans the nod for strength so they have something they're better at then the other two races is more balanced than having a mecha race that's good at two out of three, an elf race that is good at the one thing the robots aren't and humans that are just "meh" across the board.

If people want the humans to be the "jack of all trades" race, then there needs to be a race that excels at melee. And it shouldn't be Casts, because they already have a specialty - Guns.

EDIT: And, if they do make humans the all-rounder, I would like to see StriderTuna's idea implemented in one way or another. Because I LOVE it.

EDIT #2: Ok, sorry about that.

Now.....anyone up for a soda? I got plenty. :pepsi::sevenup::coke:

•Col•
Aug 14, 2011, 02:13 PM
Anyway, I'm being serious about what I think would be better. Just explain that Casts focused on being precise and what-not, so they're more fragile. Many real world pieces of equipment that are fine tuned for precision are very delicate and fragile.

And before I get dog-piled by people saying "It's a game." Yes, I know this, but I'm using a real-world train of thought to justify my opinion on things. Heck, I love being a walking space cooler, I love the fact that Casts have multiple strengths...

...but it isn't balanced.

Giving humans the nod for strength so they have something they're better at then the other two races is more balanced than having a mecha race that's good at two out of three, an elf race that is good at the one thing the robots aren't and humans that are just "meh" across the board.

If people want the humans to be the "jack of all trades" race, then there needs to be a race that excels at melee. And it shouldn't be Casts, because they already have a specialty - Guns.

They've already said that the Casts have the most sturdy bodies and the highest physical abilities. Humans have balanced stats once again.

This is why I said, based on the information we have, they should give humans the best accuracy so they can be the "best" Rangers(even though I wouldn't like it).... If they don't though, Casts are going to be the "best" Hunters AND Rangers once again.

NoiseHERO
Aug 14, 2011, 02:17 PM
The hell are you guys TALKING ABOUT??

I THOUGHT THIS WAS ABOUT BEASTS!

Malachite
Aug 14, 2011, 03:31 PM
Considering PSO2 doesn't have a whole lot in common with PSO, I find this to be a moot point.

How much more in common could it have without being a reskin?

Also... be quiet Zyru. pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaseee.

BIG OLAF
Aug 14, 2011, 03:37 PM
How much more in common could it have without being a reskin?

I see almost no similarities between PSO and PSO2, outside of the race/class naming system, and Mags (which we haven't seen any screens of yet).

Malachite
Aug 14, 2011, 03:43 PM
Looks exactly like a ten year newer PSO to me.

NoiseHERO
Aug 14, 2011, 03:47 PM
Looks like a new game, trying to spend it's early stages catering to fanboys to me.

And you guys called the portable games fanservice.

Malachite
Aug 14, 2011, 03:54 PM
lol actually it looks like a sequel...

BIG OLAF
Aug 14, 2011, 03:58 PM
Looks exactly like a ten year newer PSO to me.

I don't agree. But, we're both entitled to what we believe.

Pillan
Aug 14, 2011, 04:48 PM
On average (as in, taking all breeds into consideration), Dogs are far more powerful than cats because they are more massive. Cats are well known to be far more nimble; these demonstrate racial strengths and weaknesses. Athletes and Scholars are a demonstration of how a person can be efficient at one thing at the cost of not being efficient at another. If you want to become a great scientist, then your research time will cut into your training for becoming a marathon runner. Time is finite for us. This wouldn't be so true if we lived forever, but because we do not, if we want to become great at something than we have to allocate our time.

I could argue the various other points further, but the one you ended with here is quite enough. Characterization in games seldom represents the average, especially in role play or story based settings. The main character almost always has some strange kink that sets them apart from the racial, cultural, or ethnic expectation. And I generally prefer games that opt to reflect this idea, especially when centered around making one's own character.

But, to be a bit more blunt, what is to stop a Newman female from devoting her life to becoming an athlete on par with a Cast male? Of course it makes sense that her technique aptitude would be decreased to reflect that, from the previous academic versus athlete case, but why would she not have the option to do that?

And, of course, it becomes even more interesting when you consider that Newmen have always been the product of genetic engineering. So it would certainly concern me in such a setting if there was no way to get a body modified to have such athletic prowess at the cost of technique power. And, for the reverse argument, it seems easy enough to remove some of the pistons from the interior of a Cast and replace them with the tech amplifying photon stones in every rod, giving the Cast tech output to rival a Newman.

But I suppose there is just a fundamental disconnect in this issue, as I will only see usefulness in terms of output optimization. And I certainly do loath seeing the majority of players forced into a certain set archetype based on optimizing that equation (i.e., Cast Hunter, Cast Ranger, Newman Force).

And, for the record, a five year old precedent is a very good way to estimate one's future actions.

StriderTuna
Aug 14, 2011, 05:50 PM
such 'set archetypes' are mainly favored by min-maxing power players who play heavily in parties, hardly solo. Now in someone more prone to soloing they might prefer the balance humans provide in the classes.

While FOcasts are a mystery, HUnewearls have been an agile class with a mix of techs and attacks.

I suggested my idea as a way to give humans a nice perk while retaining their core elements (verstility, balance) as the Cast and Newman racial traits tend to make them sound more appealing to newcomers.

•Col•
Aug 14, 2011, 05:53 PM
But, to be a bit more blunt, what is to stop a Newman female from devoting her life to becoming an athlete on par with a Cast male?

I am lol'ing at this logic.

RemiusTA
Aug 14, 2011, 10:36 PM
I could argue the various other points further, but the one you ended with here is quite enough. Characterization in games seldom represents the average, especially in role play or story based settings. The main character almost always has some strange kink that sets them apart from the racial, cultural, or ethnic expectation. And I generally prefer games that opt to reflect this idea, especially when centered around making one's own character.

Well, yeah. That works in RPGs and FPSs and other standalone games, but i dont think it's ever worked very well for MMORPGs. In RPGs, the storyline will set the main character apart from the rest of the cast. But in MMORPGs, there's always a clear indicator of being an "exceptional character" -- player level. Everyone starts out being "exceptional" compared to the NPCs in the game, but compared to the rest of the PLAYERBASE (with whom you interact with whenever you play), your exceptional abilities are shown pretty directly.

The Tsumikiri J-Sword, or a Lavis Cannon, or a Dark Flow or Heavens Punisher, or one of those really, really rare weapons (that, in PSO anyway, gave you very unique abilities) gives your character the status of "above the rest" and "undeniable badass" amongst the playerbase. And i think that's a wonderful aspect of MMORPGs, and one of the reasons why PSO/PSU is one of my favorite ones, because instead of there being one SUPER POWERFUL weapon and armor set, there are plenty for you to claim for your own and still be unique.







But, to be a bit more blunt, what is to stop a Newman female from devoting her life to becoming an athlete on par with a Cast male?
Absolutely nothing. The point here is that her maximum is going to be obviously less than the maximum of someone who was born better suited for the job. Honestly, equality is a funny concept. It exists but at the same time it doesn't. Take Boxing for example. Is a welterweight champion any less of a champion than a heavyweight champion? Of course not. But stick the best welterweight boxer on earth with the best heavyweight fighter on earth, and he's going to get his shit fucked up, hands down, probably no contest at all.

Bruce Lee is known as one of the greatest martial artists on earth, but if he got into a free-for-all unarmed battle in a ring with Mike Tyson, he is going to get destroyed. Because when it comes down to it, with all that amazing strength he may have had for his size, in proportion to Mike Tyson, it is just not enough to make a difference. They're equal, but at the same time they aren't. In a size/physical strength ratio, ants are much, much more powerful than humans are. But you'll never see an ant overpower a human, will you?



....annnnnyway, Newmans are known by definition to be a physically weaker race. They can reach their own maximum, but when it comes to physical damage, they just can't be expected to outperform those who are exceptional in something they already exceed at. And by this principal, I have absolutely no problem with the racial differences in this or any videogame that uses them correctly.


But in PSO2's sense...a Hunewm may be have melee attacks weaker than any Humar, and mental attacks weaker than any Fomar, but those aren't the only things that can determine efficiency. You still have factors like speed, agility, versatility, status effects, weakpoints, ect ect.

In Real Life terms, sure, a 5'9 average-weight guy can go fight a 6'5 muscular guy, and he COULD win, too. But the reality of the matter is, the odds are stacked so terribly bad against him, that unless he has some serious tricks up his sleeve, he's most likely going to lose.



And, of course, it becomes even more interesting when you consider that Newmen have always been the product of genetic engineering. So it would certainly concern me in such a setting if there was no way to get a body modified to have such athletic prowess at the cost of technique power. And, for the reverse argument, it seems easy enough to remove some of the pistons from the interior of a Cast and replace them with the tech amplifying photon stones in every rod, giving the Cast tech output to rival a Newman.Well...yeah, but then it wouldn't really be a Newman anymore would it? If it's that easy, then why wouldn't they just advance the newman to be super powerful AND mentally powerful, and make the cast super large to accommodate both power pistons and magical photon stones?

This is what i mean by "some limitations are needed". If this were possible, it would not only be a very different game, but probably a pretty bad storyline. "Newman" would be another name for "Supersoldier", and "Casts" would probably be another name for "WMD". The only classes worth playing would be Newman and Cast, which would be far more superior than humans.

...hypothetically speaking, of course, haha. The point is, that logic doesn't really help very much. It IS a fantasy title, but there's always a clear line between "fantasy story" and "stupid trash". Doing things like adding that into your storyline is a VERY easy way to cross that line and never be able to get back. Like Naruto.



But I suppose there is just a fundamental disconnect in this issue, as I will only see usefulness in terms of output optimization. And I certainly do loath seeing the majority of players forced into a certain set archetype based on optimizing that equation (i.e., Cast Hunter, Cast Ranger, Newman Force).

And, for the record, a five year old precedent is a very good way to estimate one's future actions.
Yeah, it is, but PSO and PSU were two games that, while are similar, in reality play almost nothing alike. They each have their own set of issues that the other can't really easily solve. PSO2 is looking to be even more unlike PSU than PSU was from PSO, which kind of distances it from all of them IMO.






I see almost no similarities between PSO and PSO2, outside of the race/class naming system, and Mags (which we haven't seen any screens of yet). There are tons of similarities, you just aren't looking in the right place. You probably see "jumping" and "air combos" in PSO2, and look back on PSO and say "these are absolutely nothing alike". The entire atmosphere of PSO2 alludes to PSO. The outfit designs, the mood of the storyline, the realism in the weapons and animations.


While it isn't 100% true-to-form, i dont think it really tried to be, nor do i think they could have achieved it if they did. PSO2's artstyle is very similar to PSOs, but is FAR more anime-styled than PSO's original artstyle was. If PSO2 was trying to emulate PSO directly, i think the characters would have looked far more realistic. That was the very first thing i noticed about the game the moment the first gameplay was shown.

r00tabaga
Aug 14, 2011, 10:53 PM
Bruce Lee would get killed by Mike Tyson? Really? Boxers are good at boxing. They get destroyed in MMA & I think it'd be closer than u think.