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View Full Version : FOcast Balancing



Kimil Adrayne
Jul 29, 2011, 06:29 PM
Back in PSO, the force classes were very well balanced with respect to each other.

FOnewearls were glass cannons
FOnewms were best with the Ra-techs
FOmarls had healing proficiency
FOmars mixed melee with Gi-techs

None of these classes were 'useless' with respect to each other, and they all had something the others didn't. I'm glad that Casts can now be forces, I just hope that Sega actually gives them a real role to play other than joke character (FOcasts a la PSU)

What role should FOcasts and Focaseals in play in PSO2? High-def healers, mages with guns? Also, should HUcasts and RAcasts remain tech'less? Discuss.


I'll start.

Having played a Beast WT the whole of my PSU career, I know that building classes with laughable ATP and TP and low skill caps will lead to nothing but a crap class. What I'd like to do would be to give FOcasts and FOcaseals good TP (equal or on par with to newms and humans) and the same tech level caps as the other to races (while being forces).
Now, limit them by only allowing them access to a couple of tech groups at any given time (the attack techs being grouped by element and the support techs being grouped by healing, buffing and debuffing).

Starting off as a FOcaseal with access to 2 groups, I could chose to have access the fire-tech group (foie, gifoie, rafoie) and the healing techs (Resta, Anti and reverser). I would have equal proficiency with these techs to any newm or hume using them but would only be able to use these 2 groups. I could change which I had access to at a counter in the lobby, and maybe I could gain more access to groups as I level up. When ever my current techs wouldn't be enough, I could switch to what ever melee or ranged weapons I'd have access to.

This way, FOcasts would still be potent forces without stepping on toes.

Pillan
Jul 29, 2011, 06:43 PM
So far we have seen no discussion of any racial/gender differences, aside from the dash animations. I really wonder how much the base stats will vary between them, if at all, at this point.

Tetsaru
Jul 29, 2011, 07:36 PM
If Casts will be able to use certain support spells without MST/TP affecting their potency (such as buffs/debuffs, etc.), then I could see them being similar to how a lot of people used them as Acrotechers in PSU, although personally I think that's rather broken. That, or they could probably solo very well, because they'd also have access to Resta, Anti/Reverser, etc. instead of having to rely on items.

Pillan
Jul 29, 2011, 07:52 PM
Assuming it turns out the traditional route of the Force class having the exact opposite stats of Cast, then I would assume every Cast Force would want to hybridize the class toward melee or ranged combat with backup techniques. Of course, if techs still do more damage as a Cast Force that is hybridized toward melee, then it would be a huge deterrent to play Cast Force at all.

So I do agree that the best case scenario would be an Acrotecher of sorts, or a more sturdy FOmarl from PSO classic.

As far as Cast techs outside of Force, I would hope that is purely based on the class abilities that a player chooses, not the race.

RemiusTA
Jul 29, 2011, 09:29 PM
Back in PSO, the force classes were very well balanced with respect to each other.

FOnewearls were glass cannons
FOnewms were best with the Ra-techs
FOmarls had healing proficiency
FOmars mixed melee with Gi-techs

None of these classes were 'useless' with respect to each other, and they all had something the others didn't. I'm glad that Casts can now be forces, I just hope that Sega actually gives them a real role to play other than joke character (FOcasts a la PSU)

What role should FOcasts and Focaseals in play in PSO2? High-def healers, mages with guns? Also, should HUcasts and RAcasts remain tech'less? Discuss.

It'll probably go this route. In fact, they'll HAVE to use PSO's style of force balances in order to make this work. There are going to be 6 different classes of force now.

The way i see it:

Fomar - Gi boost + Speedy animations

Fomarl - Support boosts + Grants (light) boosts + Weapon Specialists

Fonewm - Ra/Gi boosts

Fonewearl - Basic + Megid (dark) boost + highest MST potential

With this old PSO setup, there really isn't much room for Casts to get anything specific...

Focast - Faster charging + More efficient Force Melee animations + Attack Power (lowest MST potential)

Focaseal - Faster charging + More efficient Force Ranged animations + Accuracy (lower than other fleshies but higher than Focast)


That's along the lines of MAYBE what i'd think of doing. Casts are naturally going to be stronger and more durable than the other 2 races. Therefore, they'll probably just be better "frontline" forces.

Allison_W
Jul 29, 2011, 09:44 PM
They'd have a lot more room to squeeze CAST forces in if they just got rid of gender-based stats and bonuses entirely. That would mean they only need to balance three forces instead of six.

Dracheseele
Jul 29, 2011, 10:08 PM
I don't think we'll see the old PSO tech bonuses. Maybe something similar as a sort of skill, but it'd be accessible to all races.

I don't see why they have to fulfill a specific role. I doubt FOcasts will have such abysmal tech ratings that they have to cast more than once or twice more than another character. Also we don't know if there will be any ranged weapons you can link techs too.

Kimil Adrayne
Jul 29, 2011, 10:15 PM
I don't think we'll see the old PSO tech bonuses. Maybe something similar as a sort of skill, but it'd be accessible to all races.

I don't see why they have to fulfill a specific role. I doubt FOcasts will have such abysmal tech ratings that they have to cast more than once or twice more than another character. Also we don't know if there will be any ranged weapons you can link techs too.

With third Tech-damage-wise overall (and whatever atp or range damage they rank behind other race/classes), they'll be crap. They need SOMETHING. Jack-of-all trades characters never really have a point in these games.

RemiusTA
Jul 30, 2011, 01:11 AM
They'd have a lot more room to squeeze CAST forces in if they just got rid of gender-based stats and bonuses entirely. That would mean they only need to balance three forces instead of six.

I dont really see the need of getting rid of them. On the PSO system, each different race/sex combination was an entirely different class. If they follow that pattern, there's no issue.


The ISSUE came about when PSU followed suit with the gender differences, but then gave each sex/race combo nothing unique. A female newman/beast/cast/human had absolutely nothing different about them, aside from stats.

In PSO, Hunewearl, Ramarl, Hucaseal, Racaseal, Fomarl, and Fonewearl were all very, very different characters. Some had unique animations to the entire game, some had skills and bonuses no other class had.

ShinMaruku
Jul 30, 2011, 01:20 AM
I would also like to see racials also give into some mastery things (Mastery in ways like you get a damage and crit bonus on certain techs, for example newmen may get light/dark and fire bonus, humans get dark,earth and casts get a electric bonus)
A nice thing I'd like to see also is:
newman: tech speed bonus due to thier better metnal facilities as well as their int and damage bonus
Human: Some tech speciality
Cast: strengh and def bonus and maybe higher buff bonuses

RemiusTA
Jul 30, 2011, 02:57 AM
I would also like to see racials also give into some mastery things (Mastery in ways like you get a damage and crit bonus on certain techs, for example newmen may get light/dark and fire bonus, humans get dark,earth and casts get a electric bonus)
A nice thing I'd like to see also is:
newman: tech speed bonus due to thier better metnal facilities as well as their int and damage bonus
Human: Some tech speciality
Cast: strengh and def bonus and maybe higher buff bonuses


PSO did this already. Check out OP's (or my) posts.

Stezan
Jul 30, 2011, 03:40 AM
Considering we don't how expansive the collection of Techs will be, there could still be room for class specialties without stepping on other FOs' toes. If Dam techs are in, they could easily be a good fit for FO casts assuming they have the best DEF of the FOs (considering the close proximity required to use them). Also did any of the classes in PSO have a Debuff focus? Just food for thought...

Hotobu
Jul 30, 2011, 04:29 AM
Considering we don't how expansive the collection of Techs will be, there could still be room for class specialties without stepping on other FOs' toes. If Dam techs are in, they could easily be a good fit for FO casts assuming they have the best DEF of the FOs (considering the close proximity required to use them). Also did any of the classes in PSO have a Debuff focus? Just food for thought...

This would be my guess. Make casts the support class. Give them stronger shifta, deband, zalure, and Jellen than everyone else. Traditionally none of these have been MST based anyway so this could be a nice little niche.

Shadownami92
Jul 30, 2011, 04:35 AM
They could make Focasts be that one guy with reverser that can survive grants from the final form of Dark Falz well enough to go around and resurrect the rest of the weaker members. :D

For for some great fun, trap and spell combos. Focasts could hit a freeze trap with barta for a bigger effect radiuson the freeze or damage.

RemiusTA
Jul 30, 2011, 08:13 AM
Hopefully not. That would mean that, once again, Mental Strength and DEF would be useless stats.

If Casts have the lowest MST, that means they have the lowest magic defense out of all of the forces. There would be no logical explanation as to them surviving grants longer than the fleshies. :P

Pillan
Jul 30, 2011, 08:58 AM
Personally, I much prefer the idea of all the class abilities being based on your selection within the skill trees, as they have shown so far. And I like that coupled with the minimalist race (4-8%) and gender (2-4%) differences that they have used for the last five years. That way I can choose between optimizing my FOcast toward melee/range attacks with support techs or going all out nuking, regardless of whatever penalty the race has in tech power.

EDIT:

With that, it would be nice to have a "recommended path" for each race and gender combination clearly visible for the class to make it easier for those of us who want a good option but don't want to invest a long time thinking it through.

Angelo
Jul 30, 2011, 09:23 AM
I dont really see the need of getting rid of them. On the PSO system, each different race/sex combination was an entirely different class. If they follow that pattern, there's no issue.


The ISSUE came about when PSU followed suit with the gender differences, but then gave each sex/race combo nothing unique. A female newman/beast/cast/human had absolutely nothing different about them, aside from stats.

In PSO, Hunewearl, Ramarl, Hucaseal, Racaseal, Fomarl, and Fonewearl were all very, very different characters. Some had unique animations to the entire game, some had skills and bonuses no other class had.

To be honest I liked the way PSU did race and gender stats. While I DO like how PSO added some bonuses to certain techs depending on your combination, I have a feeling that little tech-specific proficiencies and bonuses will be part of the subclass system.

ShinMaruku
Jul 30, 2011, 11:15 AM
PSO did this already. Check out OP's (or my) posts.
PSO is not nearly as indepth as I'd like, no mastery bonus only one close to mastery was fonewearl with their piercing megid of doom.)

Kimil Adrayne
Jul 30, 2011, 01:10 PM
I hope that skill tree IS race/gender specific (less so on the gender). Make them specific so characters are more optimized to their race's stats versus trying to pull off a role another race will always beat them at (a nuking cast versus a nuking newman.

Give someone playing a FOcast/FOcaseal option to get bonuses on buffs, debuffs, healing, close-range attack techs, shield-type weapons or heavier weapons.

Oh, and leave HUcast/caseals and RAcast/caseals completely tech-less.

Pillan
Jul 30, 2011, 07:42 PM
I suppose I will point out that increased healing power, increased support range, and a speed buff to heavy weapons is FOmarl all over. I assume a number of human female Force players on PSO2 would be quite disappointed if the FOmarl abilities were all Cast-limited.

Ryock
Jul 30, 2011, 08:29 PM
So far we have seen no discussion of any racial/gender differences, aside from the dash animations. I really wonder how much the base stats will vary between them, if at all, at this point.

I was having the same thought. They may go a different route this time and just make races an aesthetic property and nothing more.

Stezan
Jul 30, 2011, 08:31 PM
Also, so little is known about the Skill trees that those could be the main method of differentiating FO playstyles. There could be paths for Nukes, support, healing, melee proficiency, etc.

Then if FOcasts have better base ATP, they could focus their tree on Support and Melee proficiency but nothing is stopping FOmars from doing the same thing. This wouldn't mean the FOcast took the FOmar's job because the FOmar would probably be better at Nuking and could tweak their tree to reflect this strength.

On a side note, if there are defensive techs, such as a tech reflect or absorb, that opens up even more custom character builds for FOs.

Vashyron
Jul 30, 2011, 08:48 PM
I was having the same thought. They may go a different route this time and just make races an aesthetic property and nothing more.

I wish, but nope.

http://bumped.org/psublog/phantasy-star-online-2-units/ (New info at bottom)




Humans are considered the Balanced type, all purpose race.
Newmans have raised mental power.
Casts are considered Artificial Life.
Hunters excel at close combat.
Rangers use guns and fight from mid-range.
Forces are the magician class and fight long ranged.

The videogame news sites described the classes based on their distance away from the enemy. Which seems strange to think Forces were described as long range combat instead of Rangers.

Kent
Jul 30, 2011, 08:59 PM
I would imagine that, if we got the same sorts of stat differentiations between races as in PSO, we'd end up with a system like this for Forces:

Newman Forces are obviously going to be the best at being "pure" technique-slingers.

Human Forces will be the best for hybridizing between melee combat and technique combat (key word here being "hybridizing" - not being just a "melee Force" that uses only support, but mixes together attacks and techniques, especially if they can be comboed together somehow).

Android Forces will be best and being purely-support-oriented characters, using guns and melee combat, aided by support techniques, whereas their attack and healing techniques would probably fall rather short compared to the other races of Forces.

Put simply, Newmen would throw out big technique damage, Humans would be able to use techniques and weapons equally-well for combat, and Androids would have the weakest damaging techniques, but would get the most out of playing a purely-support-oriented role.

That seems like the most sensible and logical way to go about things. Besides, anyone who tried to play a FOmar as purely-technique or purely-melee was doing it wrong, anyway, since the class was quite obviously designed around mixing the two together. I suspect this will be the idea behind Human Forces (both genders, perhaps in different fashions if they go with that idea again) in PSO2, just because it makes so much sense.

Vashyron
Jul 30, 2011, 09:05 PM
Just hoping that if it is anything like that, that Shifta, Deband, Resta and such Techs depend on TP/MST. Else I'm seeing Cast Supremacy all over again. :wacko:

Pillan
Jul 30, 2011, 09:12 PM
I would argue that the primary flaw in Force has been giving them a reasonable amount of health, support spells, and damage techs all in one. It becomes tough to argue that damage techs should be stronger than guns when a Force adds 20% more damage to the team just for casting Shifta.

Fix that and the Cast supremacy issue will go away even faster.

NoiseHERO
Jul 30, 2011, 09:19 PM
I'm assuming gunner would be called more mid range because of their speed and movement to get wherever to shoot wherever, instead of just hiding in the back like past games.

where with forces, they're squishy and usually in RPG's the mages hide in the back. So even with matching attack range, if you add in their distances between the enemy it'd make sense for Forces to be the ones farthest away.

But looking at the gameplay footage kinda contradicts that when you have them whacking enemies with a rod, then spamming AOE zonde TECHS while surrounded...

Maybe forces are just safer to do whatever in the earlier levels, where as later in the game you might look crazy trying to melee with a rod..

Sw353
Jul 30, 2011, 11:36 PM
I would imagine that, if we got the same sorts of stat differentiations between races as in PSO, we'd end up with a system like this for Forces:

Newman Forces are obviously going to be the best at being "pure" technique-slingers.

Human Forces will be the best for hybridizing between melee combat and technique combat (key word here being "hybridizing" - not being just a "melee Force" that uses only support, but mixes together attacks and techniques, especially if they can be comboed together somehow).

Android Forces will be best and being purely-support-oriented characters, using guns and melee combat, aided by support techniques, whereas their attack and healing techniques would probably fall rather short compared to the other races of Forces.

Put simply, Newmen would throw out big technique damage, Humans would be able to use techniques and weapons equally-well for combat, and Androids would have the weakest damaging techniques, but would get the most out of playing a purely-support-oriented role.

That seems like the most sensible and logical way to go about things. Besides, anyone who tried to play a FOmar as purely-technique or purely-melee was doing it wrong, anyway, since the class was quite obviously designed around mixing the two together. I suspect this will be the idea behind Human Forces (both genders, perhaps in different fashions if they go with that idea again) in PSO2, just because it makes so much sense.

This is a pretty good lineup. To avoid the cast supremacy everyone suspects will happen, you have to nerf the cast mages. obviously they will have the weakest magic, but is it fair to make them pretty useless as forces themselves.? Will there atp and dfp be enough to sustain them in a solo party? And if that is the case, how close will they be to the ranger and hunter classes.
what exactly would be the point of being a FoCast if you are weaker than everyone around? Just for Shifta and Resta?

NoiseHERO
Jul 30, 2011, 11:38 PM
Maybe they'll replace beast wartechers.

Vashyron
Jul 30, 2011, 11:39 PM
How about Higher PP costs?

Kimil Adrayne
Jul 30, 2011, 11:48 PM
Maybe they'll replace beast wartechers.

:( But I don't want to play as a tin-can.

NoiseHERO
Jul 30, 2011, 11:56 PM
:( But I don't want to play as a tin-can.

Pretend it's a nintendo wi- wait bad example

Pretend its a console you actually like playing and NOT a tin can!

But no really, I mean stats and play style...

I also like how the cast description in no way hints at their stats or abilities... "They are artificial life" Unless it means they do a good job at being the robot version of everything including techs. But that'd just kill the point of Human being balanced and increase reasons for CAST supremacy.

The last thing I can really think of... Is Accuracy having a strong use in TECHs.

Allison_W
Jul 31, 2011, 01:01 AM
I dont really see the need of getting rid of them. On the PSO system, each different race/sex combination was an entirely different class. If they follow that pattern, there's no issue.


The ISSUE came about when PSU followed suit with the gender differences, but then gave each sex/race combo nothing unique. A female newman/beast/cast/human had absolutely nothing different about them, aside from stats.

In PSO, Hunewearl, Ramarl, Hucaseal, Racaseal, Fomarl, and Fonewearl were all very, very different characters. Some had unique animations to the entire game, some had skills and bonuses no other class had.

Uh, I don't know if you noticed, but different roles by sex is a bad thing.

Kimil Adrayne
Jul 31, 2011, 01:59 AM
Uh, I don't know if you noticed, but different roles by sex is a bad thing.

Gender equality? In my PSO2? No thanks.

Keep them Stag Cutlery male-only, and FOmarls being best with Resta.

Seriously though, I don't view gender differences in this kind of game as being a bad thing, it keeps everything diverse. Give FOcaseals Buffs and melee/guns as staples, and give the FOcasts Debuffs and melee/guns.

Angelo
Jul 31, 2011, 03:43 AM
Gender equality? In my PSO2? No thanks.

Seconded.

Malachite
Jul 31, 2011, 04:29 AM
:( But I don't want to play as a tin-can.
But tin cans > furries.

Kent
Jul 31, 2011, 06:57 AM
This is a pretty good lineup. To avoid the cast supremacy everyone suspects will happen, you have to nerf the cast mages. obviously they will have the weakest magic, but is it fair to make them pretty useless as forces themselves.? Will there atp and dfp be enough to sustain them in a solo party? And if that is the case, how close will they be to the ranger and hunter classes.
what exactly would be the point of being a FoCast if you are weaker than everyone around? Just for Shifta and Resta?
Ever played a FOmarl?

They're not built for technique damage. In fact, they're the weakest out of all of the Forces in PSO when it comes to it, not just due to the fact that they have the lowest MST out of all of them, but they only get a single offensive technique bonus: +50% to Grants, a single-target technique that's slow to put out its damage, and is only really useful against a relatively small portion of the game's enemies in the first place. Needless to say, people didn't really play FOmarls hoping for technique damage.

They did, however, get range bonuses to Shifta, Deband, Anti and Resta. People played them as almost purely support-oriented characters, who relied on weapons for the majority of their damage. I would say that having someone dedicated to this role is quite nice in a group, and can work out very well. If we can expect stat growth to be similar to how Androids have been in the past (obviously barring the complete lack of MST this time around), then they could end up being a very similar playstyle.

Considering that it's happened before, one could presume it's entirely possible that Android Forces will play most-similarly to FOmarls of yore; likewise, Human Forces may play more like FOmars did, and Newman Forces may get simply amalgamated into something that resembles a cross between their proficiencies in the past. It would make sense, I think.

This is, of course, assuming that they don't do the gender-based thing this time around - which was really done out of necessity for diversity in PSO, but could be solved here. It's still entirely possible (and I would say likely, given the past design decisions behind the series and its abominable spin-offs) that they're still be at least some statistical differences.

Zipzo
Jul 31, 2011, 07:35 AM
Ever played a FOmarl?

They're not built for technique damage. In fact, they're the weakest out of all of the Forces in PSO when it comes to it, not just due to the fact that they have the lowest MST out of all of them, but they only get a single offensive technique bonus: +50% to Grants, a single-target technique that's slow to put out its damage, and is only really useful against a relatively small portion of the game's enemies in the first place. Needless to say, people didn't really play FOmarls hoping for technique damage.

They did, however, get range bonuses to Shifta, Deband, Anti and Resta. People played them as almost purely support-oriented characters, who relied on weapons for the majority of their damage. I would say that having someone dedicated to this role is quite nice in a group, and can work out very well. If we can expect stat growth to be similar to how Androids have been in the past (obviously barring the complete lack of MST this time around), then they could end up being a very similar playstyle.

Considering that it's happened before, one could presume it's entirely possible that Android Forces will play most-similarly to FOmarls of yore; likewise, Human Forces may play more like FOmars did, and Newman Forces may get simply amalgamated into something that resembles a cross between their proficiencies in the past. It would make sense, I think.

This is, of course, assuming that they don't do the gender-based thing this time around - which was really done out of necessity for diversity in PSO, but could be solved here. It's still entirely possible (and I would say likely, given the past design decisions behind the series and its abominable spin-offs) that they're still be at least some statistical differences.I am rolling a FOmarl in complete anticipation of going the "Wartecher" route in this game :)

Angelo
Jul 31, 2011, 07:56 AM
FOmarl was not terribly powerful in teching, and not terribly strong in melee, but they had so much utility that if I had to choose one FO to team with it would be a FOmarl. They are a perfect example of the idea of 'utility over hard numbers' that I hope PSO2 adopts further.

I hope this game moves more towards utility and collective teamwork and away from individual min-maxing to support soloing.

Just my personal two-cents here though, I think complementary gameplay is what these online games are all about. This is why I'm crossing my fingers for server-side enemy syncing; can't wait to play the team bodyguard/tank.

Kimil Adrayne
Jul 31, 2011, 07:15 PM
But tin cans > furries.

That's opinion, not fact. For my stance on it, please see the sig pic. :)

Damn I miss that character, its sad.