Micro-transactions? I'd bet a stack on it...

[adam-james]

Love them or hate them, Micro-transactions are part of most MMOs these days.

SoJ bolted them on to PSU in the end, but this time around, I'm betting they have thought about them from the very beginning.

There is no telling how PSO2 will perform, and it seems crazy to me that Micro-transactions would not have been part of the business plan for the project, even if they were just included as a fallback plan.

So, do you see them working? And if they are inevitable, where's the line between acceptable and game breaking?

I personally draw that line just above things like Add Slots. If you've worked hard for an armour, but it's not quite got everything you need, being able to buy and item that allows you to add an extra unit to boost stats seems just fine to me, but buying the armour or units themselves with anything other than Meseta just feels wrong.

What do you think?


UPDATE: Look what's turned up in the alpha client, right new to each other:

meseta_icon
arcscash_icon <--- Proof that they are at least thinking about it as early as Alpha

[str898mustang]

who cares? stop making assumptions about the game.

[adam-james]

Really?

This is something that lots of people feel passionately about. Just look at the uproar that occurred amongst the PSU360 crowd when we found out about Guardian's Cash. People we're talking about quitting over it.

[Zipzo]

who cares? stop making assumptions about the game.Even though OP, you might night understand...this guy has a point.

Most of the threads and posts around here are become speculative qq.

"Oh god this game better have ______"

"SEGA needs to ______ in PSO2"

"If SEGA doesn't ______ in PSO2 they are stupid"

"What if PSO2 has ______?"

Blah, blah, blah.

Wait for the game to come out, then we can bitch, moan, and complain about features and concepts that actually exist (or don't exist) and bother us. Instead we all sit around making stuff up to be worried about.

[adam-james]

Even though OP, you might night understand...this guy has a point.

Ok, I'll wait until this evening, but I'm pretty sure I'll still think he's just crapping on my thread for no reason.

Why even have the ability to create threads about a game that's not out? I think my thread addresses a concern amongst people that are looking forward to this game...not really like the examples you gave. I offered a theory and wanted to see what others thought... is PSO-World not the place to talk about things like this?

[Justyn_Darkcrest]

Love them or hate them, Micro-transactions are part of most MMOs these days.

SoJ bolted them on to PSU in the end, but this time around, I'm betting they have thought about them from the very beginning.

There is no telling how PSO2 will perform, and it seems crazy to me that Micro-transactions would not have been part of the business plan for the project, even if they were just included as a fallback plan.

So, do you see them working? And if they are inevitable, where's the line between acceptable and game breaking?

I personally draw that line just above things like Add Slots. If you've worked hard for an armour, but it's not quite got everything you need, being able to buy and item that allows you to add an extra unit to boost stats seems just fine to me, but buying the armour or units themselves with anything other than Meseta just feels wrong.

What do you think?

I would be ok with micro-transactions if the idea you outlined here were the limitation.

Personally, I don't like the idea of being able to buy equipment with cash since I feel that it tends to take away from part of what makes these games fun, the hunting/leveling up to obtain better gear.

Now, IF they choose to implement a cash system (not assuming they will or will not) I'd like to see it limited to enhancing you weapons in some way, or changing the appearance (changing color, adding smoke effect or something like that), maybe certain clothing, and possibly some limited edition gear that would be on par with what can be obtained in game.

[Rizen]

I would be ok with micro-transactions if the idea you outlined here were the limitation.

Personally, I don't like the idea of being able to buy equipment with cash since I feel that it tends to take away from part of what makes these games fun, the hunting/leveling up to obtain better gear.

Now, IF they choose to implement a cash system (not assuming they will or will not) I'd like to see it limited to enhancing you weapons in some way, or changing the appearance (changing color, adding smoke effect or something like that), maybe certain clothing, and possibly some limited edition gear that would be on par with what can be obtained in game.
I agree. One of the things I enjoyed about PSO was the fact that I could trade for items I wanted instead of paying for it. Personally, I found it more fun to hunt for items. A market based more on trade rather than money could definitely help prevent certain issues that most other MMOs face and promote a more interactive community.

[str898mustang]

Really?

This is something that lots of people feel passionately about. Just look at the uproar that occurred amongst the PSU360 crowd when we found out about Guardian's Cash. People we're talking about quitting over it.

When people complained about not wanting GC on PSU, they were happy but then when they found out they weren't getting the content that JP PSU had, they wished they would have gotten GC.

[Angelo]

If it's just costumes and stuff, it should be a fun addition.

[adam-james]

When people complained about not wanting GC on PSU, they were happy but then when they found out they weren't getting the content that JP PSU had, they wished they would have gotten GC.

So, you admit that people care about the subject then!

I personally welcomed GCash to the 360 servers - I'd rather have kept things interesting than basically voting against a way for SoA to see the title as something that's worth focusing on, and let it die on it's arse.


If it's just costumes and stuff, it should be a fun addition.

Exactly, if it's nothing that can create a real separation, then I'm all for it.

[Rizen]

I'm a bit out of the loop for PSU, but I am assuming GCash is for those special outfits and weapons like PSPo2i outfits and Miku suit etc?

If so then I have to say why are so many 360 users complaining? Most of the games on 360 has some from of additional content you can purchase like new characters, outfits in-game and avatar, stages, and many other things. It's not adding or taking anything away from the game really...correct me if I am wrong.

[Justyn_Darkcrest]

I'm a bit out of the loop for PSU, but I am assuming GCash is for those special outfits and weapons like PSPo2i outfits and Miku suit etc?

If so then I have to say why are so many 360 users complaining? Most of the games on 360 has some from of additional content you can purchase like new characters, outfits in-game and avatar, stages, and many other things. It's not adding or taking anything away from the game really...correct me if I am wrong.

It's not really that simple, since GC brought a lot more to the table than what you see at face value, but that's a discussion for another topic.

On topic: I think that if they were to keep the content that you can simply purchase to a minimum, or at least on par with whatever is available, then it would be a great idea. This way, people that would rather spend the money (or the people that simply don't have the time to hunt) can keep up reasonably.

I would be opposed to another boosted exp mission or anything resembling that.

[Pillan]

I would assume that micro-transactions will exist in the game, as they have been in the last pair of releases. But I really do not see it as a problem, as there are certainly a number of players who want to get further in the game but do not have the time to play ten hours a week. If they want to support the servers by paying a little extra or even covering the monthly fee for other players, I would support it.

As far as a clear line between going too far, I would say that the items you can buy should be at most as powerful in performance as ones you can find. Likewise, I would avoid exclusive pay areas or missions. More like a "buy this for double EXP for a day" or "buy this for double drops" or "buy this item directly." And something like double drops would be much easier to implement as they have confirmed separate drops for each individual player.

But Extra Credits made a nice article on this that says everything I would want to say, so I will link it here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3689-Microtransactions).

[adam-james]

Nice reply - thanks for contributing !

[moorebounce]

One of the things I hated about PSO was yeah you could find rare armors in your higher lvls but you would find a really good armor with no slots in them WTF. So either they needed to be found with all their slots or have a way to add slots to them.

Merging stuff in PSO was cool too. That item synthesis crap they had in PSU sucked hairy bean bags. So some Micro-transactions are good and some are not. PSU had a really bad system so hopefully Sega went more in the way of PSO and not PSU.

[Razelis]

All those that claim that its fine if its pay-for-custome-only - its not fair for "collectors"!

Let me explain: Not everyone like what you like, While most people enjoy being good in stats and being strong, those people would probably be against cash shop on things that add stats.

But some people enjoy different things. I, for example, could spend hours decorating my room and my character. I'd rather hunt for weeks for a cool decoration i like than a very strong sword.

Now here is my point: Why should I pay more than you? Just because I enjoy different things?

If they must add a cash shop, i hope it for upgrades and stat boosters. It would be a huge turn off if I have to pay extra to actually enjoy in the game.

Of course if there is option for no cash shop at all, considering we DO pay to play, I rather that!

[Rizen]

Stats boosters and upgrades is essentially what drives people away from MMOs. Some people welcome it and dish out hundreds of dollars on it to be the strongest...which is one of the biggest IRL money sinks for players. I've seen it in one too many MMOs and it creates a huge division between players.

[Randomness]

One of the things I hated about PSO was yeah you could find rare armors in your higher lvls but you would find a really good armor with no slots in them WTF. So either they needed to be found with all their slots or have a way to add slots to them.

Merging stuff in PSO was cool too. That item synthesis crap they had in PSU sucked hairy bean bags. So some Micro-transactions are good and some are not. PSU had a really bad system so hopefully Sega went more in the way of PSO and not PSU.

Well, PSO had AddSlots, so you just had to sink a couple PDs into the armor.

As far as micro-transactions go, I don't mind them on some things. If they added xp boosts for $$$, it wouldn't bother me too much... unless the base xp was awful. But this is PSO, which has been fairly good about that in the past.

[r00tabaga]

I admit I would prolly buy anything pso nostalgic...outfits would be the best use of micros, but I would not be for any high ranking units, armors or weps. It would take away from the fun of obtaining them thru legit means.

Edit: Definately NO on the xp boosts.

[Ecchi]

Even though OP, you might night understand...this guy has a point.

Most of the threads and posts around here are become speculative qq.

"Oh god this game better have ______"

"SEGA needs to ______ in PSO2"

"If SEGA doesn't ______ in PSO2 they are stupid"

"What if PSO2 has ______?"

Blah, blah, blah.

Wait for the game to come out, then we can bitch, moan, and complain about features and concepts that actually exist (or don't exist) and bother us. Instead we all sit around making stuff up to be worried about.


Why don't all of you take his advice and just wait, I understand there are a lot of you QQ'ers in this community but for a change put it to rest.

[r00tabaga]

Oops I thought these forums were up for discussing anything pso2 related. How about if you don't like a post....you don't reply! Then all sides are happy. Nobody is annoying anyone.

[KodiaX987]

MTs are my booster rockets if I happen to join into an online game long after my friends have.

Instead of being a Lv.1 teenager and have to go through a massive grinding process just to catch up to said friends, I can spend the extra buck to have whatever gear it takes to powerlevel.

Of course, the best way to get rid of the problem is to make an online game that doesn't involve grinding but: lol, online game.

[Rizen]

I'm seeing alot of MMOs adopting a sidekick/apprentice type feature to help bridge the gap between high level and low level people playing together.

I wonder if PSO2 will have something of the sort...

[moorebounce]

Stats boosters and upgrades is essentially what drives people away from MMOs. Some people welcome it and dish out hundreds of dollars on it to be the strongest...which is one of the biggest IRL money sinks for players. I've seen it in one too many MMOs and it creates a huge division between players.

I'm for paying for items with what monetary system a game has but not paying real money. I've talked to people who have played games where you could pay for stuff with real money and they've put 10s of thousands into their charaters. F that. Xbox 360 is doing it right now with their DLC and I've been kicked from games that you had to pay for a map and the person who chose the map had one I didn't pay for yet.

Then you also run into the problem of people paying money for DLC but when demand goes down developers discount that DLC to try and get more people to buy the content and pretty much screw the players who paid full price.

As long as the games doesn't use real money for items or stat boosts I don't really care. I don't have an issue with private servers doing this to help players to donate for server costs. Thats different in my eyes cause most of that can be obtained in game w/o having to pay for it.


But Extra Credits made a nice article on this that says everything I would want to say, so I will link it here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3689-Microtransactions).

Nice video

[Malachite]

Lol DLC is hardly a good comparison to paying for boosters and items. If you got kicked for not having a map that the others wanted to play, I see nothing wrong with that at all. Paying for single items and stat boosts though is absolutely ridiculous.

And you're seriously talking about prices going down eventually being a bad thing? Because it fucks the person who bought it at full price? That's idiotic. Welcome to the business world, things go down in price as they get older.

Also, don't double post.

[Ark22]

All I can say is, don't let us have the power to buy SUPER POWERFUL WEAPONS. That kills the fun for rare hunting to me.

[condiments]

All I can say is, don't let us have the power to buy SUPER POWERFUL WEAPONS. That kills the fun for rare hunting to me.

I'm pretty sure "Pay 2 win" micro-transaction schemes spell doom for the longevity of these types of games. If the development team isn't complete retards they will not introduce something like this.

Micro-transactions can WORK if its sensibly implemented. By that I mean it needs to be as unobtrusive as possible, and not give a player a serious edge against others. It undermines the gameplay, community and drives people against each other. You don't want that in your online games. That means they should sell things like additional costumes, decorations, or some gameplay incentives(e.i. something like exp boosts for a number of missions, but thats pushing it). Most people won't purchase much in the way of these items, or spend little. However, these services are justified by the few who spend boatloads to show off their character.

[moorebounce]

Lol DLC is hardly a good comparison to paying for boosters and items. If you got kicked for not having a map that the others wanted to play, I see nothing wrong with that at all. Paying for single items and stat boosts though is absolutely ridiculous.

And you're seriously talking about prices going down eventually being a bad thing? Because it fucks the person who bought it at full price? That's idiotic. Welcome to the business world, things go down in price as they get older.

Also, don't double post.

I mentioned the DLC as another part of the problem for paying for items in a game. Either give it all to me in the game or put it in the next game. Don't hold content back that you can include in your game later for a fee. I'll stop playing your game for that.

I don't play on XBL anymore because If I pay you a yearly fee I shouldn't see freaking ads. Same goes with TV. Free TV can have all the ads they want because it pays the bills. Cable TV shouldn't have any ads because you pay for that.

I know thats the world of business but that doesn't mean you have to like it either.

Also I can post however many times a feel.

[r00tabaga]

B-rank weapons (if they're even ranking them in pso2) would be the highest they should go. Extend codes could make them superior.
If it helps SEGA turn a dollar then I'm all for MTs. I know there's Koreans out there who sell meseta for real money and that wasn't a problem. Pspo2 had items for real money & they did well too. If done right, it could suplant subscription fees & help those with less disposable incomes.

[str898mustang]

So, you admit that people care about the subject then!

I personally welcomed GCash to the 360 servers - I'd rather have kept things interesting than basically voting against a way for SoA to see the title as something that's worth focusing on, and let it die on it's arse.





You were talking about Microtransactions on PSO2, I was talking about GC on PSU.....two different subjects.

[Malachite]

Also I can post however many times a feel.
Lol, a feel. Quality over quantity, bro.

And yeah, you can... If you feel like blatantly disregarding the guidelines and annoying everyone/getting banned.

Your posts are filled with facepalmery.

Also, wow, really? Cable TV shouldn't have ads? Do you not understand how the world works? Do you know what those ads do? They help make money so the station you're watching can stay afloat. Without those ads, there would be no TV for you to watch and complain about in the first place.

[r00tabaga]

Yeah, the TV ads point made me chuckle a little. :thinks of superbowl:

[ShadowDragon28]

But Extra Credits made a nice article on this that says everything I would want to say, so I will link it here (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3689-Microtransactions).


I agree 100% with that video, I brought up similar points in a thread in this forum over a month ago how I think PSO2 should use F2P with "micro transactions" system, but I was harshed on like I just suggested one should set their favorite dolly on fire or something.

[condiments]

I agree 100% with that video, I brought up similar points in a thread in this forum over a month ago how I think PSO2 should use F2P with "micro transactions" system, but I was harshed on like I just suggested one should set their favorite dolly on fire or something.

That is because of the general sentiment people hold with "micro-transactions" as money grubbing schemes that undermine online communities and games. I believe the fear is well justified considering how some F2P games basically have a "SPEND 2 WIN!" model.

However games like Guild wars 2 are unquestionably ambitious in their design, and don't require a monthly fee are going to have micro-transactions. Everything you can buy can earned in game as well, so it will be mere convenience services. Also, instead of having to compete with other subscription based games, you can earn loads of money by offering your players additional unobtrusive services(extra character slots, clothing, housing decorations, etc.).

It also removes that psychological barrier to entry of the "monthly fee". Many people get turned off of online games because they have to pay an additional fee on TOP of the purchase of the game. With micro-transactions, they don't feel obligated to purchase anything unless they want to. Its a smart business move if they do it, and will open up the game to many more consumers. Especially if this game is going to be competing with the likes of Diablo 3, and Guild wars 2. We might be willing to pay a subscription to play a heavily instanced game, but others won't. Hell, I don't know if I'll be able to convince my friends.

[Rizen]

I agree 100% with that video, I brought up similar points in a thread in this forum over a month ago how I think PSO2 should use F2P with "micro transactions" system, but I was harshed on like I just suggested one should set their favorite dolly on fire or something.
Any time I heard MMO and F2P...I instantly think gold spammers...

Only F2P MMO I know that managed to actually keep it under control is Guild Wars.

[BioWarrior]

Any time I heard MMO and F2P...I instantly think gold spammers...

Only F2P MMO I know that managed to actually keep it under control is Guild Wars.

P2P don't help either. All they do is try to steal accounts so they don't need to pay. Plus they might randomly get one with a huge bank to pawn off. Thank god a lot of companies support security tokens now. Be nice if pso2 supports security tokens too. If I'm not mistaken PSU had account theft problems on the NA/EU servers at one point.

[ShadowDragon28]

Well then, Hopefully *if* PSO2 does not have a monthly subscription, I hope it will have a system like Guild Wars/GW 2 has....

[BioWarrior]

I'm honestly more in favor of pay to play for PSO2. Ever seen the PSU demo on 360?

[Kent]

I'm against allegedly-free-to-play gaming in many cases by virtue of the fact that so many developers go out of their way to do it in the worst way possible. If a player can buy an advantage over another with real money, then congratulations, you've just ruined game balance in favor of attempting to wring money out of people.

I've only seen a handful of games that actually do it well. Dungeon Fighter Online, for instance, pretty much is restricted to costume pieces and the (stupidly-expensive) ability to refund all of your skill points for money. There are some things, like healing items, you can also buy, but you should've be bad enough at the game to require needing a bunch of healing items in the first place (it's really not that hard, you just need to not be stupid about how you play). Sure, the costume pieces give very small bonuses (things like +1% attack speed), but it's really not enough to make players significantly more powerful than non-paying players. That, and the nature of the costume system realistically constitutes gambling in the first place, just because you throw money at it for the chance that you'll get something you actually want.

I wouldn't be necessarily against the idea of microtransactions for PSO2 if it were only costume pieces that could be bought... But in all honesty, I don't have enough faith in Sonic Team (assuming they're doing anything with the game) to be able to actually trust them to not make a pay-to-win scenario out of it, considering how badly PSU turned out without even having microtransactions to worry about initially.

I would personally be more in favor of a straight-up initial purchase than a microtransaction or monthly payment model. If they're smart about things, then there are easy ways to keep the online play up and running without requiring fees or microtransactions to support it. The obvious first step is to make the game good enough to buy in the first place, which they're probably not going to do if they're designing around microtransactions in the first place.

[condiments]

I'm honestly more in favor of pay to play for PSO2. Ever seen the PSU demo on 360?

I don't care either way. I would prefer, however, the game to be financially successful so we can receive consistent patches and updates. The Phantasy star community is strong, but I'm sure Sega wants to rope in more fans. The game community at large may be more receptive to PSO2 if they use the micro-transaction model.

[BioWarrior]

Only thing that'll keep people playing is good content that will last a while. FFXIV is a good example of this, it's currently free to play yet it's a ghost town. There's massive amounts of people to the point the servers repeatedly crash after an update, but after 2-3 days tops it's dead again cause the content doesn't last. That's why I like pay to play. Consistently gives the devs money to make new content. Though PSO and PSU should have been either cheaper per month or free.

[condiments]

Only thing that'll keep people playing is good content that will last a while. FFXIV is a good example of this, it's currently free to play yet it's a ghost town. There's massive amounts of people to the point the servers repeatedly crash after an update, but after 2-3 days tops it's dead again cause the content doesn't last. That's why I like pay to play. Consistently gives the devs money to make new content. Though PSO and PSU should have been either cheaper per month or free.

FFXIV is a ghost town because it was an absolute disaster from release. It was MEANT to be subscription based, but the game was so bad they extended the free month indefinitely. I understand what you mean, but its a bad example.

Guild Wars 2 has the model I'm proposing, with it being non-subscription based. It also has tons of large areas that can support hundreds of players, large PvP areas that support players from multiple servers, instances, etc. If this type of model can support a game like THAT, then it should work for PSO2 as well. People will be far more receptive so they don't have pay per month.

[Zyrusticae]

Strictly speaking, F2P is FAR more successful when it comes to raw funding. In other words, if you want to see lots of content, F2P is the way to go.

The most notable example today is Riot Games, who have managed to expand to over 300 employees (and still growing!) entirely through selling skins and minor progression shortcuts (no in-game advantages) in League of Legends.

Global Agenda and Lord of the Rings Online have also seen amazing success with their respective business models. The key is that there are a few individuals who spend a LOT more than the general populace, in some cases spending hundreds of dollars on cosmetic upgrades and the like. Remember, less than 1% of the population holds more than 99% of the world's wealth. The F2P model is aimed at exploiting such individuals for all they're worth. And it works. I know someone who spent $1500 on Perfect World alone. That's more than a single subscriber, assuming a standard fee of $15 a month, will spend over the course of eight years.

The primary issue of the F2P model is the danger of P2W, or the players perceiving it as P2W (whether or not it's actually true, the PR damage can be massive). If a company can properly sell products that the players (particularly the wealthy players) desire without making the players who pay less (or even nothing at all) feel like they're at a massive disadvantage, causing them to leave, they can see huge success. It's a very delicate balance, one that can be easily upset by a push that's too much in one or the other direction.

P2P is very simple in comparison, which is nice for logistical simplicity, but there's a reason virtually every major western MMO released in the past five years has gone F2P...

[BioWarrior]

Free to Play worked well in PSP2/PSP2i on the Japanese servers atleast. Too bad it seems like SoA doesn't care about the NA/EU version.

[condiments]

Strictly speaking, F2P is FAR more successful when it comes to raw funding. In other words, if you want to see lots of content, F2P is the way to go.

The most notable example today is Riot Games, who have managed to expand to over 300 employees (and still growing!) entirely through selling skins and minor progression shortcuts (no in-game advantages) in League of Legends.

Global Agenda and Lord of the Rings Online have also seen amazing success with their respective business models. The key is that there are a few individuals who spend a LOT more than the general populace, in some cases spending hundreds of dollars on cosmetic upgrades and the like. Remember, less than 1% of the population holds more than 99% of the world's wealth. The F2P model is aimed at exploiting such individuals for all they're worth. And it works. I know someone who spent $1500 on Perfect World alone. That's more than a single subscriber, assuming a standard fee of $15 a month, will spend over the course of eight years.

The primary issue of the F2P model is the danger of P2W, or the players perceiving it as P2W (whether or not it's actually true, the PR damage can be massive). If a company can properly sell products that the players (particularly the wealthy players) desire without making the players who pay less (or even nothing at all) feel like they're at a massive disadvantage, causing them to leave, they can see huge success. It's a very delicate balance, one that can be easily upset by a push that's too much in one or the other direction.

P2P is very simple in comparison, which is nice for logistical simplicity, but there's a reason virtually every major western MMO released in the past five years has gone F2P...

Agreed. Honestly, I wouldn't give a crap if I had to to pay 10 bucks a month if it meant consistent content, but times and expectations are changing. I wish Sega would do their proper research on the market to make an informed decision but I have a hard time believing they will.

Subscription fees are still viable amongst the biggest of MMOs like WoW and TOR, but the F2P micro-transaction model allows others to compete.

[Mike]

Free to Play worked well in PSP2/PSP2i on the Japanese servers atleast. Too bad it seems like SoA doesn't care about the NA/EU version.
It would take a large set of steel ones to charge on monthly basis for PSP game.

[Razelis]

Strictly speaking, F2P is FAR more successful when it comes to raw funding. In other words, if you want to see lots of content, F2P is the way to go.

In most cases it's not as pretty as you make it seem. In most F2P+cash shop games the actual content updates are few to none. While the cash shop updates weekly...

It'd basically make the company to invest mostly on developing the cash shop on account of actual content for the game.

Cash shop on PSO2 will be a huge let down in my book, considering it's pay to play... Depends on how bad it is I may decide to not stay on it... Got enough Pay to play games that have all their content open for me without to need to pay extra~

[Puppet_Papaya]

If it means having no subscription fee, I'm all for it!

[Razelis]

If it means having no subscription fee, I'm all for it!

That's the whole point. PSUJP has Cash Shop PLUS Subscription Fee.

And just my opinion, but I rather P2P without CS than F2P with CS...

Edit-

Also having PSO2 F2P with cash shop, doesn't only mean just that.

It means it will be BUILT as F2P with cash shop.

Hello super grindy leveling pace with experience potions.

Hello super grindy rare drop with drop potions.

If their only income is from cash shop, you're bound to not be able to progress at all at some point, without Cash shoping, so the "no subsciprion" claim is kind of illusion~

[Zyrusticae]

You're using examples of BAD F2P games. Or, more accurately, you're using examples of P2W games.

The good ones keep the servers filled by making it worthwhile for even free players to participate without spending a dime. Obviously, if they fail to do this, the servers end up being too empty, reducing the experience of those who DO pay for the game and disincentivizing continued play (re: losing customers).

Again, using examples of BAD games is a silly thing to do. There are plenty examples of really terrible P2P games, too, so it's not like it's even remotely a magic pill.

[Razelis]

I don't understand how you consider my example so bad? Those are the standard of F2P model~

You can check Free to Play MMORPG sites, please tell me on which you can progress to endgame, or progress at all, at high level/max level, without spending a dime.

I was giving example of most F2P models, not the two games you listed there (which one of those was actually P2P until some point, therefore, was not built from ground up as Cash shop game... Now that's a BAD example how i see it~)

The fact that a game has a cash shop, means that the developers will put effort and invest some time (if not most of it) to make it appeal to player. That's common sense of a company looking to earn more income as a buisness~ Especially if that cash shop is the only direct Income they get!

I don't understand what really terrible P2P games have to do with this but okay lol

[Zyrusticae]

Wow, that's just plain wrong.

A game going from P2P to F2P and seeing HUGE SUCCESS is a BAD EXAMPLE?

You need to recalibrate your logic nodes. Something is off there.

Examples of games that are F2P and NOT P2W and quite successful:


Vindictus/Mabinogi Heroes
League of Legends
APB Reloaded
Most every western MMO that's gone from P2P to F2P (LotRO and DDO being prime examples)



Using bad F2P games as an example is as terribly baseless as using bad P2P games as an example. Again, very simple logic. If you're going to use terrible F2P games to justify F2P as a business model being poor, then I am justified in pointing at the HUGE number of failed P2P projects as examples of why P2P is a failure.

I don't think that's very much fun. Do you?

[Malachite]

A real cash would ruin PSO2. I'm afraid if it uses cash shop rather than P2P, I might not be getting the game. It's alright though, I'm certain the game will be P2P.

As for Vindictus... that system fucking SUCKS and the fact that you think it's "good"/somehow acceptable for PSO2 makes me want to slice your tits off.

And have you ever even played APB? lol. It is VERY pay-to-win, trust me. The guns you buy for real money are basically like hacks. Assault rifles with INSANE damage and the accuracy of a sniper rifle... against the extreme basics of 'free' weapons? Yeah, that's not pay to win or anything... x:

[Razelis]

I'm sorry but still, most F2P games are pay to win, and you can see pages of them at MMORPG.com

While it seems you can progress easily at first, after a few levels you learn its impossible to move on without cash shop...

i'm speaking about MOST F2P games, hence Standard... While there may be few exceptions in those you listed (i can not respond to them cause I didnt play some of them) they are still NOT standard...
And I'm pretty sure, if a game that was P2P and turned F2P STARTED as F2P, it'd be much different and would have less comfortable cash shop...

And you don't think what's fun? ( ' - ' ;

[Fayorei]

I'd be okay with Micro-transactions in the PSP2/2i model in Japan. Beyond that, buying power is something that, in my opinion, should never be implemented in a game since it makes a playerbase feel spurned. Some goofy items, visual modifications, etc? Sure! Offer things that won't give absolute unfair advantages, in other words.

I'm pretty much in agreement with "Extra Credits" stance in their Microtransactions episode. It's a dangerous thing, but when used well, it's a great thing.

There's also the fact that there is a good chance this game will be P2P. A lot of people won't desire to spend money on items in a P2P game(unless it's WoW, with a huge, huge playerbase), and even then, every single one of those items are cosmetic. As long as they keep things cosmetic, I don't mind.

[Zyrusticae]

Have you guys actually thought about what P2P actually entails?

It encourages grindy content because they want you to spend as much time on the game grinding for something as they possibly can. If you finish the content too quickly (i.e. Tera's Korean release), what incentive do you have to keep paying the monthly fee? Why bother when you've already done all the content and new content is not coming for months?

The developers HAVE to drag out the content in a P2P model. The model simply doesn't work otherwise. "Endgame" in most every MMORPG ever released consists of a series of dungeon grinds for extremely rare items, and the content itself is often only just interesting enough to be interesting the first, eh, maybe three times through, depending on your tolerance for repetition.

Now, maybe things are changing. Maybe developers are now able to create content that has enough variety/changing elements to be interesting more than a few playthroughs. It will be interesting to see if they can manage it.

The fact remains, however, that F2P is an extremely successful business model, and brings in revenue greatly in excess of a normal monthly fee. If you have issues with the idea of spending more money on a game, well, then it's obvious that the game is simply not good enough, otherwise it would be worth your money, would it not?

And seriously, again, League of Legends. That game alone invalidates all your arguments. F2P, not P2W, and so incredibly, massively successful that it allowed a tiny start-up company to grow to obscene size in just a year. It now has an active player base surpassing World of Warcraft. How, pray tell me, do you argue against that?



As for Vindictus... that system fucking SUCKS and the fact that you think it's "good"/somehow acceptable for PSO2 makes me want to slice your tits off.

And have you ever even played APB? lol. It is VERY pay-to-win, trust me. The guns you buy for real money are basically like hacks. Assault rifles with INSANE damage and the accuracy of a sniper rifle... against the extreme basics of 'free' weapons? Yeah, that's not pay to win or anything... x:
Explain how Vindictus sucks.

Also, wtf? APB Reloaded isn't even remotely pay-to-win. EVERY SINGLE MODULE HAS A DOWNSIDE. Paid-for weapons are specialized. They are NOT superior (especially compared to how it was when the game was P2P, where fully upgraded weapons were like howitzers next to normal, un-upgraded guns).

If your standard for P2W is so incredibly, absurdly broad, well, that's a personal problem.

[Malachite]

You've obviously not played APB for very long, otherwise you'd understand how much of a smack in the balls the pay-to-win scoped N-tech or Whisper are.

And yes, I do fully understand what P2P entails, because I've played many many P2P games, (such as, uh, the original PSO maybe?) and I've never had any real game-breaking problem in the manner of which you're describing. I guess you've never heard of this magic thing called DLC? Free to play with cash shops however, almost ALWAYS suck in some way or another, and almost ALWAYS suffer from pay-to-win.

But that's all fine, because I'll sleep sound knowing that PSO2 won't be a paytowin game. :3

[condiments]

The problem is people on this site are more than willing to go with pay to play model, because its what we've come to expect. I won't have any problem, because I've done the same over the years. However, if you engage in dialogue with any people outside of the "fandom", they'll think its absurd that you'll have to pay monthly for a heavily instanced game. The evolution of the MORPG, MMORPG has increased rapidly since the release of PSO, and expectations of what you can charge for have changed as well.

When you have games like THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_FskSWHLgE with the free to play cash shop model, and games like Diablo 3 being free to play as well. People are going to have a hard time justifying paying for a game like this. Even if they go with the subscription model, they'll have to compete with titan MMOs like The Old Republic and World of Warcraft. I'm sure we're all well aware of usually happens to most MMOs that try to...they end up hemorrhaging customers until they go free to play.

I'm fine with paying 10 bucks a month, but its not about what I'm okay with or what we're okay with. We're talking about the average consumer here.

[RemiusTA]

It would take a large set of steel ones to charge on monthly basis for PSP game.

It sounds like suicide either way you spin it to me. It may fly in Japan, but it's just going to combust anywhere else on the planet.

[Fayorei]

Have you guys actually thought about what P2P actually entails?

It encourages grindy content because they want you to spend as much time on the game grinding for something as they possibly can. If you finish the content too quickly (i.e. Tera's Korean release), what incentive do you have to keep paying the monthly fee? Why bother when you've already done all the content and new content is not coming for months?

The developers HAVE to drag out the content in a P2P model. The model simply doesn't work otherwise. "Endgame" in most every MMORPG ever released consists of a series of dungeon grinds for extremely rare items, and the content itself is often only just interesting enough to be interesting the first, eh, maybe three times through, depending on your tolerance for repetition.

Now, maybe things are changing. Maybe developers are now able to create content that has enough variety/changing elements to be interesting more than a few playthroughs. It will be interesting to see if they can manage it.

The fact remains, however, that F2P is an extremely successful business model, and brings in revenue greatly in excess of a normal monthly fee. If you have issues with the idea of spending more money on a game, well, then it's obvious that the game is simply not good enough, otherwise it would be worth your money, would it not?

And seriously, again, League of Legends. That game alone invalidates all your arguments. F2P, not P2W, and so incredibly, massively successful that it allowed a tiny start-up company to grow to obscene size in just a year. It now has an active player base surpassing World of Warcraft. How, pray tell me, do you argue against that?


Explain how Vindictus sucks.

Also, wtf? APB Reloaded isn't even remotely pay-to-win. EVERY SINGLE MODULE HAS A DOWNSIDE. Paid-for weapons are specialized. They are NOT superior (especially compared to how it was when the game was P2P, where fully upgraded weapons were like howitzers next to normal, un-upgraded guns).

If your standard for P2W is so incredibly, absurdly broad, well, that's a personal problem.

I argue against that by keeping a larger and more obnoxious community off the game. Certain people fear P2P, but honestly? I don't mind. I'd rather straight up pay server upkeep than people buying items endlessly to perform better in-game. This also keeps a majority of beggars, etc out. And don't tell me that all those F2P games are truly balanced, and that people never have to spend money to keep up. I've played a wide variety of em. PSO just isn't the place. If you like F2P, may I recommend staying on Vin or playing Tera?:P

If you want to go the best F2P model, I think Guild Wars would be perfect with F2P online, and buy game to play. Cash shop most always ends up being more expensive than a flat $10 month model.


It sounds like suicide either way you spin it to me. It may fly in Japan, but it's just going to combust anywhere else on the planet.

This.

I also highly suggest watching this once again:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3689-Microtransactions

[yoshiblue]

Could try dragon nest. Just because it could be P2P doesn't it can't still be P2W. Make over priced items to have the edge over another. Only difference is that they would profit more in the beginning.

[WinterSnowblind]

Well designed online games these days tend not to be pay to win, but offer additional extras and cosmetic costumes and the like for those who want to pay. I think this is fine, and it's a much better option than having to pay monthly for a game, especially in the case of something like this, which isn't even an MMO, there should be no subscription, period.

Even worse is when games make you pay a subscription and STILL expect you to pay for little additionally pieces of content like this. Hopefully Sega make the right choices with the game this time. Buy the game box, be able to play forever with no subscription but add extra little cosmetic items and pets, etc to buy in a cash shop.

Any other way, the game is doomed to fail.

[Disastorm]

There are very few games that have both a subscription fee and a cash shop, so it would definitely have to be one or the other, not both. I think the best type of cash shop would actually be the Diablo 3 style auction house (where the game company would take a cut of each transaction) since it doesn't really mess up the economy anywhere near as much as a regular cash shop, since all items in the auction house are sold by players, they had to already have been obtained by a player so all rare items stay rare, and in fact if a player has a rare item he not only gets to be happy he has such an awesome item, but he also gets the feeling that he has an item that is genuinely worth alot of money.

[Sord]

I do expect some form of micro transactions to crop up, at the very least typical crap like changing a character's name, or redoing proportions and the like. Also, while League of Legends has a fuckin fantastic microtransaction model, it's nothing like a standard MMO, instanced or otherwise.

A lot of their money is made on the fact you can shortcut to characters, which isn't game breaking because there's good characters for cheap in game money, and all character can be unlocked with it (and even the expensive ones might only take a week or two of gameplay.) The other portion being skins, so many freaking skins (I'd actually guess this is the bulk of it.) People eat that shit like no tomorrow. PSO2 is looking to already be customized out the ass for proportion and looks, they can't charge much there except for do overs. I suppose they could start charging for actual clothing pieces though, but I have a feeling with such a custom heavy community that'd piss a lot of people off. Though I suppose that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. They could charge low money for clothing items but they could cost a lot to buy with in game money.

Nor can you charge for shortcuts to other characters. You build a single character with all your options available to you at the start. Pick your race, your class, and go for it. "More characters," don't exist outside more character slots, and people are only going to buy so many of those, as opposed to LoL's 80+ champions now. The best they could really do with that, is you get access to X class/race when your reach point Y in the game, and you can make a new character with that race or start working on that class. Or you can just put money down upfront and get instant access to them. I still doubt that would generate as much money as the 80+ champion system LoL has. Naturally, they'd have to be balanced and no better than the stock classes, otherwise they'd be "game breaking."

Though all that aside, Riot Games has shown it is possible to make a good microtransaction platform that rakes in money and still keeps players happy. Sega's just going to have to figure out how to do it with their own game.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm just gonna leave this here...

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/11/age-of-conan-unchained-conquers-300-000-new-players-doubles-re/

[Koric]

I'm just gonna leave this here...

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/11/age-of-conan-unchained-conquers-300-000-new-players-doubles-re/

All of the mmo's that stopped their sub plan for a f2p microtrans plan increased their playerbase and revenue. Such as Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online, Champions Online, Lego Universe...

anyways, my point, Games need to be free to play now, otherwise people won't go to them as much. Sure WoW had a great sub number and good adventures and all that, but nowadays when theres plenty of mmo's that are free and are about the same quality, Its a bit hard to charge.

Guild Wars had it from the start, Charge for the game, but not the upkeep.

I wouldn't mind having Micro-Transactions... But a Phantasy Star Online game without having a Hunters License you have to pay for, makes it seem surreal and unnatural. xD I don't know what the Portable games had.. but I do know that the console versions were always pay to play... and that they always shut down 5 years later....

(Makes me sad that we're all hyped for this game and believe we will play this thing forever... only to know that it's inevitably going to end, and we can't stop it. :()

[Pillan]

I wouldn't mind having Micro-Transactions... But a Phantasy Star Online game without having a Hunters License you have to pay for, makes it seem surreal and unnatural. xD I don't know what the Portable games had.. but I do know that the console versions were always pay to play... and that they always shut down 5 years later....

For the record, PSP2 is free to play and fueled off micro-transactions and Pizza Hut and KFC advertisements.

[Koric]

For the record, PSP2 is free to play and fueled off micro-transactions and Pizza Hut and KFC advertisements.

Well, as I said, I didn't know about the Portables.

But still, they know all their fans were waiting for a true sequel to PSO. It's hard not to attempt to cash in on it by not having a hunters license.

[adam-james]

Updated my OP with this too:

Look what's turned up in the alpha client, right new to each other:

meseta_icon
arcscash_icon <--- Proof that they are at least thinking about it as early as Alpha

[Vashyron]

That's not proof at all at this point, similar sounding to Guardians Cash yes.

Proof? No.

[adam-james]

I meant about micro-transactions... not GC.

[Zyrusticae]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/30/the-soapbox-subs-and-cash-shops-two-great-tastes-that-taste-a/

Somewhat relevant.

F2P > P2P > Freemium > P2W, if you ask me.

[Palle]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/30/the-soapbox-subs-and-cash-shops-two-great-tastes-that-taste-a/

Aww, I was totally going to break my no-MMOs-ever-again vow for some TSW good times with old buddies. Guess this means I will have to remain true to my word.

[HeartBreak301]

I'm at least hoping they won't have a cash shop system. I've always supported hunting things rather than buying it for real world currency.

[Hrith]

As any sane person has.

[Razelis]

I'm at least hoping they won't have a cash shop system. I've always supported hunting things rather than buying it for real world currency.

this

even if it means hunting for currency like photon drops to buy funny customes rather than pay money for it

[Enforcer MKV]

I think League of Legends has a pretty good system. The way you purchase new characters is divided. See, you don't have to pay for them, but you can if you're impatient.

The way it works is as follows:

For every game you complete, you receive points that you can save up, and eventually use to buy the characters, for free.

Or, if you don't feel like spending time building up points, you can simply buy the characters with a different type of point. One that you get by paying real money. Now, you pay less points if you use the ones that you pay for, but see, you're paying real money for them.

Personally, I love this system, now if only they'd apply this to skins....

[tehhaxorer]

I think League of Legends has a pretty good system. The way you purchase new characters is divided. See, you don't have to pay for them, but you can if you're impatient.

The way it works is as follows:

For every game you complete, you receive points that you can save up, and eventually use to buy the characters, for free.

Or, if you don't feel like spending time building up points, you can simply buy the characters with a different type of point. One that you get by paying real money. Now, you pay less points if you use the ones that you pay for, but see, you're paying real money for them.

Personally, I love this system, now if only they'd apply this to skins....

As somebody who just started playing LoL I agree with this 100%. I do wish skins were buyable with in-game points but that is off-topic.

I could see microtransactions as long as it doesn't affect gameplay, although part of me is fine with the straightforward subscription service. However that does not seem to be the way most games are going these days. Given the current climate (even wow has lost 8% of its subscribers in the past 6 months, and I am sure some of them got sick of paying the sub fee when there are "free" alternatives coming out all the time) I hope that if PSO2 is subscription then it will still be successful...

[HeartBreak301]

Being the way I am I just don't think you deserve to have an item if you can simply buy it because you're better off than other players irl. A lot of times items like those are exclusive and it really ruins the game when the items you can buy are better than any you can find ingame.

[Razelis]

The way it works is as follows:

For every game you complete, you receive points that you can save up, and eventually use to buy the characters, for free.

Or, if you don't feel like spending time building up points, you can simply buy the characters with a different type of point. One that you get by paying real money. Now, you pay less points if you use the ones that you pay for, but see, you're paying real money for them.

No thanks. This just means SEGA is going to make the game more grindy to encourage us to buy to "save time".

Where we wouldn't even NEED to save that time if that game would not be designed with that "feature" in.

It's like if SEGA is going to sell us Meseta additionally to the one that's dropped.

If they are going to allow us to buy Meseta in real life money to "save time", that means the game will be designed with very low meseta drop rate, or at least, lower than it would, if the feature to buy meseta with real money did not exsist.

[Bushido]

Being the way I am I just don't think you deserve to have an item if you can simply buy it because you're better off than other players irl. A lot of times items like those are exclusive and it really ruins the game when the items you can buy are better than any you can find ingame.

This. Besides, when you take a deep look at the game, it becomes clear that PSO is essentially a treasure hunting game. Sure, you level up to equip better equip which then makes you stronger and helps you level up ad nauseam, but the main reason why we play is to hunt for rares. Giving people the ability to buy items instantly breaks the entire point of playing in the first place.

[Enforcer MKV]

Being the way I am I just don't think you deserve to have an item if you can simply buy it because you're better off than other players irl. A lot of times items like those are exclusive and it really ruins the game when the items you can buy are better than any you can find ingame.

While I understand where you're coming from, there are a few things that you should keep in mind.

1. I completely agree with this mindset, honestly, save for one fact.

2. That fact is that the people who made the game need to be payed, and their wages are determined by whether or not the company makes money. Now, of course, with a monthly subscription, they are making money on a monthly basis. Assuming people stick with the game.

3. Now, it can be argued that people aren't fortunate enough to afford a price of....for the sake of argument, 10USD? (I'm going off of PSU.) each month, but they can save up their money on the side and buy an in-game item for a one time fee.

4. What you are refering to is often refered to as "pay to win." Personally, I think the people who screw people out of their money by advertising a free to play game, and then slapping items that are necessary for advancement into a player shop should die in a fire, but I try to be nice about it.

5. The system in LoL is designed so that people can access all gameplay features, characters, everything that isn't aesthetic, without paying a cent of real money. They just give players the option of different player looks, and getting stronger quicker. A player who doesn't pay can get just as powerful as a pay player, it might just take a little bit longer.

6. Cash shops in Sub-based games are over-zealous, and I will call Sega on it if they make this decision. Yes, I know they probably don't care, but what they do care about is losing subscribers.

Of course, I try to be optimistic and believe that companies still care, at least some of them.

"In the face of such a horrible reality, the lie she believes is so much sweeter."

Oh, btw, +5 internetz for anyone who knows where I pulled that line from. :P

[yoshiblue]

For some reason that line reminds me of this one,

"Romance at short notice was her specialty"

[Enforcer MKV]

For some reason that line reminds me of this one,

"Romance at short notice was her specialty"

...no idea where that's from. XD

[HeartBreak301]

I would think that getting a steady $10 a month would amount to more than someone buying all the items they'd want, getting bored and quitting because of it. I guess what I'm really doing is comparing it to PSO and how you couldn't buy the items you wanted and had to get them from hunting or trading. There's a reason why people are still playing PSO and I don't think it's too smart to deviate from something that's been proven to work, but it's SEGA so we'll see what curveball they throw us this time.

[Zyrusticae]

I would think that getting a steady $10 a month would amount to more than someone buying all the items they'd want, getting bored and quitting because of it.
HAHA! No. That's not how F2P games work.

See, the big spenders? The most important customers F2P (more accurately, P2W games, since that's what everybody here thinks about when they see F2P) wants are the ones who spend hundreds of dollars before they quit. As a matter of fact, I personally know one chick who spent $1500 on Perfect World before she quit. Yes, that's right! $1500 smackaroos! On ONE GAME!

Think about that for a second. For a standard monthly fee of $15, that's ONE HUNDRED MONTHS WORTH OF SUBSCRIPTION FEES. It'd take over 8 years for one person to pay that much on a P2P game, and that's assuming they don't let their subscription lapse at all that entire time. And it's 150 months for a $10 fee!

It's hilarious when people insist that P2P is better for the company. It's not. Not even close. It's good for the consumer, yes, that's absolutely all it's good for, do not try to dress it up as anything else. You like it because it's easy for you to manage. But it is not, absolutely not, the strongest business model out there. Especially now.

[yoshiblue]

I know that people probably spent around 1,300 when combat arms still had all their NX guns perm-able. That's if they didn't also buy specs, gear and other goodies.

[Keilyn]

Love them or hate them, Micro-transactions are part of most MMOs these days.

SoJ bolted them on to PSU in the end, but this time around, I'm betting they have thought about them from the very beginning.

There is no telling how PSO2 will perform, and it seems crazy to me that Micro-transactions would not have been part of the business plan for the project, even if they were just included as a fallback plan.

So, do you see them working? And if they are inevitable, where's the line between acceptable and game breaking?

I personally draw that line just above things like Add Slots. If you've worked hard for an armour, but it's not quite got everything you need, being able to buy and item that allows you to add an extra unit to boost stats seems just fine to me, but buying the armour or units themselves with anything other than Meseta just feels wrong.

What do you think?


UPDATE: Look what's turned up in the alpha client, right new to each other:

meseta_icon
arcscash_icon <--- Proof that they are at least thinking about it as early as Alpha

The thing is that there are some elitists from the US and Europe in this forum who have become so addicted to PSU that they literally look down on you if you play differently from them or if you don't conform to how the Japanese are...and those people are not even Japanese, but they sure like to pretend. I've seen it first-hand in-game...

If PSO-2 has the same style that GC is implemented, people will play for the first month or two and simply leave to one of the other action oriented online games coming out.

Here is an example of what PSO-2 will compete with :)

PSU across Xbox 360 + PSUJP combined is around 400K - 450K Subscribers and around 2000 - 3000 players logged in simultaneously. The 400 - 450K subscriber base was achieved in a five year period.

Dragon Nest, was released in March 2010 in Korea, then spread to many places in their own Regional Versions. Today they have across all versions 60 million subscribers and 1.4 million players logged in simultaneously across all versions on average. They have an Item Shop...but you don't need to use the item shop once to do well in the game.

This isn't the only game....when PSO-2 comes out there will be around 2 - 3 more games released as well that are also action oriented mmos...not to mention all the people who are going to be playing the next generation of MMORPGs.

SEGA has its work cut out for themselves and I will be honest when I tell you that Guardians Cash is the unfriendliest and most messed up Microtransaction System for the player....With "people like SEGA" who needs "enemies?"

Also......PSU = P2W game now....w/ monthly subscription fee in jp for Premium Course... So YOU PAY FOR access to PlayerShops and Personal Storage...

[HeartBreak301]

Pretty sad. Don't know if that's how I look back on PSO2 someday.

[Keilyn]

SEGA has a chance.......and if they blow it I am sure many will lose faith forever. PSO-2 failing would be their third strike for many. I believe many are on the edge of faith on this one.

[Arkios]

I hope that the game is F2P and I also hope that it has micro-transactions. As long as a person spending money doesn't have an in-game advantage and the items are merely cosmetic, then I am all for it.

I've probably dropped $150 on League of Legends in the amount of time that I've played and that's just to buy extra champions and skins. (The former because I don't have time to grind the IP)

I like the model, it allows you to spend as LITTLE as you want, but also allows you to spend some extra dough on things that you like. Imagine if they opened a shop for extra clothes, extra hairstyles, (insert cosmetic additions).

I know people that have not spent a dime on League of Legends and have more champions that I do. So you're not obligated to buy anything.

[Serephim]

I hate non-subscription MMOs. I really do.

There's no reason to play any of them, you can ALWAYS wait for a Private Server, and they'll always be 50x better because 1) they wont be nearly as grindy and 2) all that shit you have to pay for (that should be included in the game) will be avaliable for in-game currency. If this game DOES go F2P, then i wont be investing as much time in it unless they're fair with the paid content. And by FAIR, i mean they DO NOT cut corners just because they know they can get money for it. I don't care for them releasing 3 or 4 rare weapons every month and charge you for them. That's just not right. if they were included in the game then 1) you wouldn't have to give them crappy stats, and 2) the game would be better as it would have more content.



However, if every, oh say 6 months, they release a lump package of unique content (quests, environments, weapons, clothing, bosses, ect ect) that you have to pay for as an expansion ($15 or so), then i wouldn't mind so much. Because then you aren't constantly being pushed to pay for the experience.



Look, the bottom line is, F2P games limit how good the game itself is going to be because they constantly have to gimp the version of the game you're playing in order to coax you into paying money to improve it -- thats how the system works. Always. It doesn't matter how insignificant it is (weak statted weapon, clothing, ect), it ALWAYS affects gameplay because if it were in the game TO BEGIN WITH, then it would be something for you to search for and trade with. Not to mention, if it were in the game to start with, it would be fair content for EVERYBODY to obtain, and as such would probably be much different stat-wise. Paid weapons have to be weakened in order to not make the game "pay to win".


There is no content they can make Cash Shop Specific that won't affect gameplay. The more creative they get with it, the worse of an idea it is, usually. (like Pay-per-missions. What the hell.) And it's even WORSE if it's tied into the game's gameplay systems. (Grinding, Synthesis) And that's reinforced tenfold now that clothing has specific stats on it. And to make it even worse, we haven't even seen the synth and MAG system yet, which may include induced evolutions, which would be a playfield for them to make mag cell Cash Shop items. (Whereas PSO included a PLETHORA of evolutions, based on formulas that were mapped out based on class/sex/what you fed it. A system that allowed you to experiment without paying money.) There's just too much for them to ruin. I don't ever want to see another PSU chug along, full of broken and useless systems. It's like they kept the grinding and element % system broken for all that time, just for the chance to go Cash Shop with it later.

[Zyrusticae]

There is no content they can make Cash Shop Specific that won't affect gameplay.
False.

Your entire spiel is negated by the existence of a single game:

League of Legends.

[Keilyn]

There is also Guild Wars and Dragon Nest:

In Guild Wars the cash shop in the game is used to buy new character slots, character costumes (that do nothing for game play) as well as Item and Storage Space.

In Dragon Nest (an F2P game) the item shop is the very same as in Guild Wars. You won't have a game play advantage. There are costumes that give some attribute bonuses but in the game you get FREE CASH SHOP ITEMS as you complete quests and level.

At level 10 you have a full costume as well as Level 15. It lasts a week in your mail box so you can get the first costume, level a character up...have it expire and then use the second costume and by then you should be in the US version level 24 which is the current cap for that version.

@Serephim

If you are talking about private servers...you are admitting that you are into pirating or buying a $50 game and then registering to an illegal server to play the game with better conditions than official servers. This kind of destroys the entire argument "Im for P2P game" argument to its core...since you aren't really paying for a subscription and many P2P games release expansions that charge you money for them.

[Serephim]

@Serephim

If you are talking about private servers...you are admitting that you are into pirating or buying a $50 game and then registering to an illegal server to play the game with better conditions than official servers. This kind of destroys the entire argument "Im for P2P game" argument to its core...since you aren't really paying for a subscription and many P2P games release expansions that charge you money for them.


Oh most definitely. I definitely pirated PSU360 and PS2, and i never bought a single copy of Phantasy Star Online Ep2. But i must admit, i do play PSOBB for free. I just can't stand those darn official servers.....o wait


way to try to slant someone's words. How did you ever come up with such a brilliant deduction. I've bought PSO Episode I&II twice (GCN and PSOEPII +), I've bought PSU no less than THREE times as well (Bought PS2 version on launch, bought PS2 AotI version, pirated the PC/AotI version, and then bought it on 360 once PC got shut down AND paid for the AotI upgrade). Dont try that garbage : /

PSOBB is the only P2P game i've played on a private server, but i didn't start until well after the officials were taken down. I see no reason to play a private server on a P2P game -- all the content is given to you from the jump because there is no cash shop to partition it into. That's the whole reason i prefer P2P.

Duh.





In Guild Wars the cash shop in the game is used to buy new character slots, character costumes (that do nothing for game play) as well as Item and Storage Space.
Simple question. If all those character costumes were in-game to begin with, don't you think it would be a better game? They could be used as incentive for doing good in a mission, or all kinds of things. So yes, it would affect the game were the cash shop not there. Why on earth should you have to pay for storage space? Seriously? I dont play Guild Wars, but that must mean they intentionally give you less space than you need, huh? Im just assuming.

Trying to argue that a game would not be different with more content is kind of silly...But my point still stands. Cash Shop takes improvements that WOULD make the overall game better, and forces you to charge for them. There is a difference between that and an expansion.

[Razelis]

I agree with Seraphim... Cash shops are on P2P games is just... No...

Sadly Cash Shop on PSO2 is pretty much confirmed... Datamining had arks cash, and well seeing the weekly cash shop updates PSUJP is getting i'd assume they love the idea....

So yeah expect to have 30 inventory space and 50 common box space yaaaaaay

Yay for weekly cash shop updates! awesome

[Enforcer MKV]

While I do agree that your counter to Guild Wars (I'm not sure about DN, so I'll have to remain silent on that one.) was appropriate, you haven't given a counter to League of Legends.

If you haven't played it, then it's understandable that you would feel that way, but if you have played but still insist that all F2P games are as you've said, I'll have to call you on that one, because it just isn't true.

Oh, and Cash Shops in P2P games are just over-zealous, as I've stated before, and do not belong.

[Razelis]

Are you guys really that okay with cash shop on PSO2? even if its cosmetic only, would you be okay with looking the same?

All I hear is "I'm okay with cash shop as long as whatever i want in game is not cash shop oriented"

doesnt that alone mean you're NOT okay with cash shop?

Big part of PSO and PSU was character customization and cosmetic. Locking those feature, even partially, to PAY to PLAY players is just wrong.

[Enforcer MKV]

Are you guys really that okay with cash shop on PSO2? even if its cosmetic only, would you be okay with looking the same?

All I hear is "I'm okay with cash shop as long as whatever i want in game is not cash shop oriented"

doesnt that alone mean you're NOT okay with cash shop?

Big part of PSO and PSU was character customization and cosmetic. Locking those feature, even partially, to PAY to PLAY players is just wrong.

I can't speak for the others, but I have clearly stated that I'm not ok with shops in sub based games multiple times.

[Arkios]

There is also Guild Wars and Dragon Nest:

In Guild Wars the cash shop in the game is used to buy new character slots, character costumes (that do nothing for game play) as well as Item and Storage Space.

In Dragon Nest (an F2P game) the item shop is the very same as in Guild Wars. You won't have a game play advantage. There are costumes that give some attribute bonuses but in the game you get FREE CASH SHOP ITEMS as you complete quests and level.

At level 10 you have a full costume as well as Level 15. It lasts a week in your mail box so you can get the first costume, level a character up...have it expire and then use the second costume and by then you should be in the US version level 24 which is the current cap for that version.


^ This.

When it's all said and done, F2P is a better system for both parties when done properly.

As mentioned before, none of those items make or break the game and they do not prevent you from enjoying 100% of the games features. You can spend $0 and get all of the same content that someone that spent $500 would. (They'll just have a bunch of extra bag space, costumes, etc.)

There are actually quite a few games that have been switching to F2P, so it's pretty clear that companies see the advantage of this business model. (Heroes of Newearth, Team Fortress 2)

I originally hated the idea of F2P until I actually started playing games that are F2P and now I love it. In most cases, you can try a full game for FREE without investing any money into it or signing up for a subscription. For example, you want to try League of Legends? You can download the game, boot it up and start playing. You never have to spend a dime and people that spend money on the game, have no advantage over you. If you don't like the game, you can uninstall and you've lost nothing, except for some time out of your day.

I actually find that F2P games have BETTER support, updates, patches, etc. than subscription based games. This could just be coincidental.

Look at it this way, if you're used to spending money each month on a subscription, just set that money aside and spend your $10-$15 a month in the cash shop. That allows you to pick and choose the extra goodies that you get and you can pretend that you're playing a P2P game. :-P

[Keilyn]

Oh most definitely. I definitely pirated PSU360 and PS2, and i never bought a single copy of Phantasy Star Online Ep2. But i must admit, i do play PSOBB for free. I just can't stand those darn official servers.....o wait


way to try to slant someone's words. How did you ever come up with such a brilliant deduction. I've bought PSO Episode I&II twice (GCN and PSOEPII +), I've bought PSU no less than THREE times as well (Bought PS2 version on launch, bought PS2 AotI version, pirated the PC/AotI version, and then bought it on 360 once PC got shut down AND paid for the AotI upgrade). Dont try that garbage : /

PSOBB is the only P2P game i've played on a private server, but i didn't start until well after the officials were taken down. I see no reason to play a private server on a P2P game -- all the content is given to you from the jump because there is no cash shop to partition it into. That's the whole reason i prefer P2P.

Duh.


Simple question. If all those character costumes were in-game to begin with, don't you think it would be a better game? They could be used as incentive for doing good in a mission, or all kinds of things. So yes, it would affect the game were the cash shop not there. Why on earth should you have to pay for storage space? Seriously? I dont play Guild Wars, but that must mean they intentionally give you less space than you need, huh? Im just assuming.

Trying to argue that a game would not be different with more content is kind of silly...But my point still stands. Cash Shop takes improvements that WOULD make the overall game better, and forces you to charge for them. There is a difference between that and an expansion.

Logic is a nice thing:

You said you hate non-subscription MMOs, then said you played PSObb on a private server. You aren't excluded from your own logic. Once you crossed over into a private server you followed an F2P format w/o dealing with a cash shop.

Your talk of "how many times you paid for a game" is irrelevant to the conversation. I won't tell you all the times I paid for PSO and PSU playing it as well. It just adds nothing to the F2P/P2P argument.

Now an answer to your question....

Like PSU, Guild Wars DID not have those costumes at the beginning of the game, nor were they conceptualized. I do see where you are coming from. You are inquiring if a game would be better if all costumes were internal and not part of a cash shop.

Truth of the matter is that for a while it seems nice and cool, but like PSU proves...with its dismal playerbase and GC. The new costumes are a distraction and ok at first....and over time what becomes more important is actually playing the game itself.

As far as Guild Wars goes (this is just to let you know)

In a 6 year period I've spent $240 - $250 between all the expansions + cash shop. In defense of ArenaNet. They gave each player a free storage panel and they gave each player a free materials panels. The material panels allows you to stack up to 250 of every single material in the entire game on one page.

They charge a lot less than any game out there for things...and they actually GIVE you things for free as well from time to time..sometimes 50% to 75% discounts.

My favorite thing ever released in any game comes from there...The Bonus Mission Pack...

Lets just say in most mmos you are given some story of how the HERO saved the world from danger in some long text. In Guild Wars two of the four missions was from the point of view of the heroes and you played with their skill bars and in the battle that defined them.

If the delivered content is good and worth it...I will pay for it. Not all F2P/P2P content additions are bad. But most of it is...

Also most expansions for MMOs cost around $40 - $50. Specially Worlds of Warcraft......

[Poubelle]

i wouldnt mind costumes and downloadable expansions (as in large pack of content with new maps, quests, enemies, etc., not single maps) i enjoy f2p games with the cash shop model but i think if youre paying the subscription fee, anything that affects performance/advancement should be kept out...

like adding slots,more exp/meseta costumes with stats etc

[Arkios]

Simple question. If all those character costumes were in-game to begin with, don't you think it would be a better game? They could be used as incentive for doing good in a mission, or all kinds of things. So yes, it would affect the game were the cash shop not there. Why on earth should you have to pay for storage space? Seriously? I dont play Guild Wars, but that must mean they intentionally give you less space than you need, huh? Im just assuming.

Trying to argue that a game would not be different with more content is kind of silly...But my point still stands. Cash Shop takes improvements that WOULD make the overall game better, and forces you to charge for them. There is a difference between that and an expansion.

See, here is the problem. What incentive is there for a company to include ALL of these costumes from the start? You're paying $10 a month whether they have 5 costumes or 500 costumes. (This also takes time to design, color, etc. which takes away from development time if they're trying to release them all upon launch)

On the flip side, using the F2P model, they do have an incentive to release costumes after the release of the game, because people will PURCHASE these extra costumes and they will make money off it. So you continue to have a steady flow of content coming after the game is released.

[Zyrusticae]

It's important to note that F2P games with vanity item shops let you pay only for exactly what you want. And oftentimes the stuff you pay for is permanent, so you never have to spend another dime until something else comes along that you actually want. As opposed to paying one big lump sum for absolutely everything, even if you only like one particular outfit or weapon skin or what-have-you.

I might pay a decent chunk up-front for League of Legends skins, but once I have them, I have them for a good, long time (re: until the game is dead, which isn't anytime soon). No monthly fee for me!

[•Col•]

It's important to note that F2P games with vanity item shops let you pay only for exactly what you want.

This is kinda a lie....

Typically you have to buy points or whatever. Very often you use up most of your points.... Then a small amount of them end up sitting there. So, uh... Yeah... It's usually only a few cents, but it is pretty annoying how they're able to take advantage of people like that... <.<

[Zyrusticae]

Oh, yeah, that. That's pretty shitty.

But, well, it works, so they always do it. I'm fine with that, really. There are far worse things they could be doing (like making it impossible to do anything without paying for dirty items, a.k.a. terribad P2W).

[Serephim]

Logic is a nice thing:

You said you hate non-subscription MMOs, then said you played PSObb on a private server. You aren't excluded from your own logic. Once you crossed over into a private server you followed an F2P format w/o dealing with a cash shop.

Your talk of "how many times you paid for a game" is irrelevant to the conversation. I won't tell you all the times I paid for PSO and PSU playing it as well. It just adds nothing to the F2P/P2P argument.

Oh man, that whole "LOGIC" pitch again....

You are looking over everything i said. How does me playing PSOBB on a private server have anything to do with the status of the game? Especially since "private server" is the only server for the game? my "LOGIC" is that F2P+CS games take content that would otherwise be in the game for everybody and make it exclusive only to the few who decide to pay for it. Who cares if i pirate a dead game or not? Apparently not sega. Im still PAYING to PLAY it while it's up. Even if PSU had a private server while it was still officially alive i wouldn't join it.




See, here is the problem. What incentive is there for a company to include ALL of these costumes from the start? You're paying $10 a month whether they have 5 costumes or 500 costumes. (This also takes time to design, color, etc. which takes away from development time if they're trying to release them all upon launch)...incentive? What do you mean what is the incentive? A "GOOD GAME" is the incentive! Nothing "takes away from development time" unless it wasn't included in the development schedule to begin with. If a game releases with 5 outfits, then it was going to release with 5 outfits. it's called a "SUBSCRIPTION" for a good reason; youre subscribing to content. That is what you're paying them to do.



On the flip side, using the F2P model, they do have an incentive to release costumes after the release of the game, because people will PURCHASE these extra costumes and they will make money off it. So you continue to have a steady flow of content coming after the game is released. Let me first reiterate that while i have NO desire for F2P+cash shop, my issue with it increases in intensity like so: Clothing < Weapons < Gameplay Systems/Missions.

Make them pay for a percent chance to get what they want. It's the perfect scam, like a lottery where the owners of the lottery don't have to pay you anything for winning, and you always have tons of reasons to come back.

ANYWAY, The incentive for adding new content is keeping the playerbase. As you add more content, current players have a reason to keep playing, and newer players have all the better reason to join. That has ALWAYS been the incentive for paying to play the game in the first place. That's like saying developers have no incentive to make good games anymore. Why should they? They can just make a half-assed game, release it at $60, and then give you $10 DLC packages that "expand" on what would have a few years ago been standard. Of course...thats what developers are doing anyway.


Of course, making games is expensive nowadays, but have you LOOKED at PSU or PSO2 lately? They aren't exactly requiring billion dollar development budgets with dem visuals, bro.

[Keilyn]

Let me first reiterate that while i have NO desire for F2P+cash shop, my issue with it increases in intensity like so: Clothing < Weapons < Gameplay Systems/Missions.

Make them pay for a percent chance to get what they want. It's the perfect scam, like a lottery where the owners of the lottery don't have to pay you anything for winning, and you always have tons of reasons to come back.

This is PSUJP and the GC system. Most games with cash shops I've played don't pull that same japanese crap. It costs $140 to get 10,000 GC in PSUJP these days...and if you calculate a 1 in 3 chance of getting something...You really are losing $93 out of every $140 you spend.

Now THAT is a SCAM! specially when GC destroys the worth of the items non GCers use.

Name me an F2P game that SCAMS you on the level of PSUJP.

This is why I said PSO-2 WILL FAIL. When players find that they can't even get the items they PAID FOR and discover its by CHANCE, they will uninstall PSO-2 and quickly go to other games.

PSU is right now the most expensive game I've ever played. I've seen more people blow money in this game than any other game. I saw a player in Runes of Magic which is considered to be an expensive F2P game in the high levels and the most I found a Clan Leader spend was around $1200 - 1300 in playing for 2 years.

I've seen players in PSU attempt to justify having more rights and power than other people because they admit to literally spending over $8000 worth of GC. Even on the European Front there are players who have spent 3000 - 4000 Euros....I've seen more money being dumped into PSU by GCers than any other game out there.

Trust me...

Go into any F2P game out there and you arent going to pay a monthly fee for some premium course bullshit and then deal with all the GC if you get sucked into it.

I don't think you've played enough F2P games to form a real opinion. There are some very good F2P games out there and as long as you have one friend you trust to play the game you can get by without ever needing the shop.

And if you give me a reply about how every game should be solo-able...thats what Singleplayer games are for. I don't play online video games that are of the MMO genre in order to be alone 24/7. Would I rather play alone an MMO game or play some super nice Singleplayer Game like Deus Ex? I know its another genre but still...

Also, dont accuse me ever again of skipping anything you have said. That is very rude of you. I read everything but only reply to what I feel is relevant.

[Serephim]

Name me an F2P game that SCAMS you on the level of PSUJP.

Every. Single. Korean. MMO. Ever. Invented.

I am SERIOUS about this. If i see the words "korean" anywhere near the developers of an MMO, I dont go ANYWHERE near it. Phantasy Star Universe is NOTHING compared to those games. It tried its hardest to be like them, but even at its worst PSU has never been as bad as the BEST F2P MMOs ive played.




This is why I said PSO-2 WILL FAIL. When players find that they can't even get the items they PAID FOR and discover its by CHANCE, they will uninstall PSO-2 and quickly go to other games. Well, WoW works the same way, and you see how bad they're doing : 3

And do understand, the drop rates of most F2P games are terrible on purpose. In fact, if something about them is bad, and it isn't lag or physics related...it's probably bad on purpose.



Go into any F2P game out there and you arent going to pay a monthly fee for some premium course bullshit and then deal with all the GC if you get sucked into it. bwaaaaaahahaha, dude why do you think im complaining about this in the first place? Ive played so many MMOs that i dont even touch them anymore because i already know how they're going to operate. Ive had COUNTLESS experiences where i got sucked into a game, only to have it screech to a halt around the middle levels where your only option out of the ridiculous grind is the cash shop.

The worst part? The crazies who play the games call you "lazy" for not clicking monsters for hours. I remember a game called FlyFF, i played a class that could AoE monsters 10 levels over me, and i'd only gain 0.1/0.2% EXP from an entire spawn.

I was level 66. The maximum level was 120.



I don't think you've played enough F2P games to form a real opinion. There are some very good F2P games out there and as long as you have one friend you trust to play the game you can get by without ever needing the shop.This is laughable. Almost insulting. I don't have any friends who are willing to stomach shitty games with me. Well, perhaps we'll have fun slandering them, but thats about it. We'd rather move onto something that doesn't revolve around siphoning your bank account. Which is why im a PSO fan and a F2P hater.

No, i dont play many F2P games. My best friend turns me on to many of them, but im almost 90% right about them all. Just the same game before it with a different shell, and some intricate synthesis system that equates to the same thing -- tons of grinding, bad chances of success, and cash shop items to make it bearable.

[Zyrusticae]

Every. Single. Korean. MMO. Ever. Invented.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif

...Seriously, this is so easily provable false that I won't even bother, because it just shows a severe level of irrationality.

[Serephim]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif

...Seriously, this is so easily provable false that I won't even bother, because it just shows a severe level of irrationality.



Call it whatever you want. A HUGE majority of Korean MMOs are ridiculously grind heavy on purpose, out of personal experience and the experience of many people i play with. If you consult them on why, they say it because they like it that way because it's a great way to weed out "elite" players. It's not very surprising, seeing how competitive Korea is with their multiplayer games.

Now go take that GIF, and post it on every Japanese gaming forum for taking the Xbox 360 off the shelves why dont you!

And of course the statement is "easily provable false". It's called satire. Almost anything anybody posts here that isn't a mathmatical fact is "easily provable false" with a simple google search and a few technicalities.

[Keilyn]

Yeah and what about Korean P2Ps? Remember Lineage 2? That game was so grind heavy that it wasn't even funny. I remember how one made subclasses and people paid their monthly fees to the point MOST went to Private Servers wtih x1000 EXP to be able to play the game decently.

Right now the most popular action oriented Game is a Korean MMO which is not a grind fest. Do you really think 60 million players would register and play the game if it was a 100% grind fest?

Right now Im seeing korean F2P games this generation being friendlier than korean P2P games. If you pay a subscription fee...they assume you are serious and can handle the grind.

This argument you are doing of F2P vs P2P, Cash Shops vs Subscriptions has been debated and taken apart at mmorpg.com for many years. There is nothing new or old you are saying. So far everything that has come from you has been ordinary.

I rather judge on a case by case basis, because I did once think as narrow-minded as you. I then played a lot of mmorpgs and some action MMOs....

RIGHT NOW from the 30+ games I've played in the genre I have not seen a korean game rape the masses as much as people accepting Guardians Cash. In fact I came to know one player who has broken the $9000 line on Guardians Cash and by now probably is over $10,000 in buying GC.

The one game that I know that at high levels can become expensive is Runes of Magic if you play Solo a lot. By high I mean between level 50 to 60. However, I have not come across people who have told me they have blown $1000 on the game....Doesn't mean those don't exist.

[Mazarushi08]

Cash Shops + Sub fee = Fail. Simply put, there's no point (from a business perspective) to add ANYTHING into a game to generate revenue if there's no way for it to work...that's a waste of resources. My point? As many of you have probably already stated, there will be some sort of pressure or influence to make you want to use this system (crappy drops, crappy exp, etc)...which makes people wonder why am I paying you?

BUT

From a business perspective, their thoughts are simple: 'Why do we care? This guy over here is a whale and he's paying more in content fees than your sub fees combined times three.' A shitty way for a dev to think indeed, but as enforcer said people have to be paid, money talks bullcrap walks. Sure people will quit but those will be the same people that aren't much profit. This is why PSU PC died. As soon as it was stated that there'd have to be an alternative way for P2P items to be obtained through grinding they dropped it like an empty beer can...more work, no profit, no deal.

Personally? If it's little things like costumes or room decos, fine, I'm cool with that. As soon as droprates and experience, items, weapons, all of that come into play? I'll expect to be packing it up. "Strike three" (keilyn). There's no reason to have that in play if you don't expect me to use it. It's just business.

Let's just hope for the best i guess :)

[Nitro Vordex]

Oh dear god it's like having two Keilyns.

[Anon_Fire]

PSO2 should not have micro-transactions anyway.

[Razelis]

PSO2 should not have micro-transactions anyway.

The little info we have points more that it does though ( T ^ T

[Keilyn]

Oh dear god it's like having two Keilyns.

Maybe one day we will have a million Keilyns! I'll be happy when that day comes. I based her on a sweet personality I encountered many years ago. So I retained her roleplaying and form based on the past...

Then maybe there will be some spine left to fight where it counts, vs arguing in online forums where no one that counts will read or look at what people think. However without unity there is no resolve and as long as people argue against each other, rather than agree on what both sides find common ground in....and band together for a war....People will keep on failing

(\^_^/)

[Arkios]

Maybe one day we will have a million Keilyns! I'll be happy when that day comes. I based her on a sweet personality I encountered many years ago. So I retained her roleplaying and form based on the past...

Then maybe there will be some spine left to fight where it counts, vs arguing in online forums where no one that counts will read or look at what people think. However without unity there is no resolve and as long as people argue against each other, rather than agree on what both sides find common ground in....and band together for a war....People will keep on failing

(\^_^/)

Wut...

[yoshiblue]

Cool to you, then slowly becomes a cespool of boredom. To unify without complaint is but a dream. Change, a opposing force is what helps us improve and/or keeps thing from going bland. This does not apply to everyone however. Its true that we will have to compromise.

I must ask. If we band together as the Greeks did, what war are we fighting in?

[Keilyn]

Cool to you, then slowly becomes a cespool of boredom. To unify without complaint is but a dream. Change, a opposing force is what helps us improve and/or keeps thing from going bland. This does not apply to everyone however. Its true that we will have to compromise.

I must ask. If we band together as the Greeks did, what war are we fighting in?

We fight a war of preservation.

A war to prevent others who have power from stripping away what little we are made to believe we have left. People as a collective could fight for a better life. There are five major entities. The first four are made up of less than 1% of the world's population while the rest of us are in the 5th entity. The other four entities use resources and personnel from the 5th entity to make their dreams come true.

If we speak of Online Games we deal with Subcultural/Social Capital. If we take PSU itself, Microtransactions give an advantage to the player. They get higher percentages, easier grinds to 8/10, new weapons which destroy the value of old ones.

It all goes back to the fact that players organize themselves into groups and fight for power. People spent 1000s of dollars on microtransactions because towards they end they believe that they can accumulate as much social capital as possible.

Even in a game without microtransactions people do the very same. This is where the attitude comes from...where entire groups try to act like they have the right to tell others what to do and look down upon others.

The thing is that company employ these microtransactions to make money. We know this and the easiest way to exploit people is to use their Ego against them. Keep them thinking that new items will be released to make them stronger, then a week later take that strength away from them.....by releasing something stronger forcing them to upgrade or lose their reputation and status.

The thing is that if Guardians Cash gave players an advantage, I feel that SEGA will continue the very same trend and with time....every player who will stay for long periods of time, who feels they can have power or have something nice will pay into the system and feel they are worth something from paying others and justify it as a way of "gaming-nationality"

because the way I see it...

The majority who play subscription based games tend to play that one MMORPG and look down on others in the genre unless they try F2Ps, but practically every person I know who relies heavily on microtransactions actually sticks to the game they spend the most money on.

Now this system is like this because companies and corporations know people will buy into it. They use culture and any means possible to poach people into it and they know people in their gullibility and attitude will buy into it. They feed more and more to work the system. People do not resist it as much as they should, since what most who feed into it care about is "acquiring" their belief of power and social status within a community and by any means.

How far are people willing to go? I've seen people spend as much as $9000 on GC....and freely admit it...and the most hardcore Japanese Players not only spent tons on GC, they are also the ones willing to spend $300 - $600/per equipment piece they buy as a RMT from another player so they can go around feeling high and mighty.

I won't say PSU is the only game that does this, but I will state the system is like this because its accepted and people not in the system complain about it, but do nothing as a collective about it. Since it will remain like this....

It will keep on getting worse.

Notice I am not popular in these forums. Its because in being probably the most unpopular here, I am "Free." I don't have to "Think on what I say or how I say things" I can just "Say what I feel" and not "care" about "what kind of response I get" and to me that is real power and real freedom....I don't care how many enemies I make, because there are 7 billion people+ people on the face of the planet and the ones who do put up with me, that I meet everywhere, who become my friends over a long period of time fully choose to deal with me. When they find out how free they are to tell me "whatever they feel and think of me to my face" and that I wont attack them for doing so....but remain loyal because its a "REAL RELATIONSHIP" and not one build on cultural smoke screens...you see why I go through people like toilet paper and the ones who become my friends remain my friends for a VERY VERY long time.

[Enforcer MKV]

Now this system is like this because companies and corporations know people will buy into it. They use culture and any means possible to poach people into it and they know people in their gullibility and attitude will buy into it. They feed more and more to work the system. People do not resist it as much as they should, since what most who feed into it care about is "acquiring" their belief of power and social status within a community and by any means.

I lol'ed when I read this, because it's been so long since I read someone who actually said something on a serious issue that I agree with.

A very, very long time.

Edit: Wow, how did I not notice the quote mess-up earlier? Fixed!

[yoshiblue]

Well played and very true.

[Serephim]

We fight a war of preservation.

A war to prevent others who have power from stripping away what little we are made to believe we have left. People as a collective could fight for a better life. There are five major entities. The first four are made up of less than 1% of the world's population while the rest of us are in the 5th entity. The other four entities use resources and personnel from the 5th entity to make their dreams come true.

If we speak of Online Games we deal with Subcultural/Social Capital. If we take PSU itself, Microtransactions give an advantage to the player. They get higher percentages, easier grinds to 8/10, new weapons which destroy the value of old ones.

It all goes back to the fact that players organize themselves into groups and fight for power. People spent 1000s of dollars on microtransactions because towards they end they believe that they can accumulate as much social capital as possible.

Even in a game without microtransactions people do the very same. This is where the attitude comes from...where entire groups try to act like they have the right to tell others what to do and look down upon others.

The thing is that company employ these microtransactions to make money. We know this and the easiest way to exploit people is to use their Ego against them. Keep them thinking that new items will be released to make them stronger, then a week later take that strength away from them.....by releasing something stronger forcing them to upgrade or lose their reputation and status.

The thing is that if Guardians Cash gave players an advantage, I feel that SEGA will continue the very same trend and with time....every player who will stay for long periods of time, who feels they can have power or have something nice will pay into the system and feel they are worth something from paying others and justify it as a way of "gaming-nationality"

because the way I see it...

The majority who play subscription based games tend to play that one MMORPG and look down on others in the genre unless they try F2Ps, but practically every person I know who relies heavily on microtransactions actually sticks to the game they spend the most money on.

Now this system is like this because companies and corporations know people will buy into it. They use culture and any means possible to poach people into it and they know people in their gullibility and attitude will buy into it. They feed more and more to work the system. People do not resist it as much as they should, since what most who feed into it care about is "acquiring" their belief of power and social status within a community and by any means.

How far are people willing to go? I've seen people spend as much as $9000 on GC....and freely admit it...and the most hardcore Japanese Players not only spent tons on GC, they are also the ones willing to spend $300 - $600/per equipment piece they buy as a RMT from another player so they can go around feeling high and mighty.

I won't say PSU is the only game that does this, but I will state the system is like this because its accepted and people not in the system complain about it, but do nothing as a collective about it. Since it will remain like this....

It will keep on getting worse.

Notice I am not popular in these forums. Its because in being probably the most unpopular here, I am "Free." I don't have to "Think on what I say or how I say things" I can just "Say what I feel" and not "care" about "what kind of response I get" and to me that is real power and real freedom....I don't care how many enemies I make, because there are 7 billion people+ people on the face of the planet and the ones who do put up with me, that I meet everywhere, who become my friends over a long period of time fully choose to deal with me. When they find out how free they are to tell me "whatever they feel and think of me to my face" and that I wont attack them for doing so....but remain loyal because its a "REAL RELATIONSHIP" and not one build on cultural smoke screens...you see why I go through people like toilet paper and the ones who become my friends remain my friends for a VERY VERY long time.


....I was gonna read this, but as i started to scroll down i realized the bottom of your manuscript was bursting through my table and drilling its way to china.

I dont want to ruin another tile floor, soooooooo

[Dabian]

I always thought that the "Buying Power" issue was only really an issue when PVP is involved.

I think PSO could lend itself quite well to a cash-shop selling whatever it is players want to get an edge/cut down on grinding because at its heart, it's a casual pick-up-random-group-kill-stuff-get-loot game. If my teammates got powerful gear from the shop allowing them to blaze through, more power to them, and me to some extent :)

UNLESS of course you bring in player/player competition into the equation. That's a whole new headache.

[Serephim]

UNLESS of course you bring in player/player competition into the equation. That's a whole new headache.

and so it begins : 0

[Dabian]

I can't imagine PVP in PSO2. The way Photon Arts chain, you're better-off playing Marvel vs Capcom to get your air combo fix.

[Zorafim]

PvP is stupid and unless you like PvP you are stupid being just look at how bad WoW is doing because of its awesome PvP system this game should not have PvP because it will make this game rock.

Did I do it right?

[Serephim]

Make it 9 paragraphs long and it's an A+.

[Zorafim]

Jeesh, it's gonna take a ton of effort to find enough self contradictions to fill nine paragraphs...

[Dabian]

ur doin it rong. u mus spel liek dis and /lol at evrywun who tink pvp is gud. den u mus say "PSO2 shud be on XBOX360 cuz console rock and PC suck!!11"

Or at least that's how I think they do it.

[Enforcer MKV]

good grief, I feel my IQ dropping! XD

Oh, wait, internetz....

Carry on.

[Arkios]

PvP is stupid and unless you like PvP you are stupid being just look at how bad WoW is doing because of its awesome PvP system this game should not have PvP because it will make this game rock.

Did I do it right?

Yep, Arena literally ruined WoW for me. Trying to balance abilities for both PvE and PvP is just completely retarded.

I sincerely hope that PSO2 has NO PVP whatsoever. I hate it with a passion. Find another way to compete against people, other than "pew-pew"ing them until they die.

[ZephyrAM]

There are numerous ways to include competition that don't involve tearing each other apart.

Unfortunately, any of them are also capable of turning people into jerks.

This comic (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19) pretty much says the entire sad truth. Harsh language warning in there though :).

[amaro57]

Why can't PSO-2 just go with the LoL style cash shop or Guild Wars etc. Those really dont affect the game if its just cosmetic.


Now... if they go for a S4 League style Cash Shop run by its god forsaken publisher, then Sega be damned and just give us Sonic Generations.

[Keilyn]

If you really want to take a glimpse at how SEGA handles cash shops and tears apart its own population, just look at GC.

Before GC the jpn servers were populated...Now after all the GC spent by its players and the way the economy works there, you go from 2 Servers and Many Universes to One Server and 8 universes....which is starting to reach the level of emptiness at times out of events of PC/PS2.

I was going to play PSO-2, then I read up on better games that exist or are coming out as well...and decided to skip PSO-2. Now I hope that PSO-2 for those who are buying doesnt force people into buying the same game twice for the story, then force players to subscribe for the end of the story....

because that would be really sad.

Who needs a cash shop when SEGA with PSO and PSU can just make games for different platforms and force players to buy each platform and even pay money to buy the same game multiple times for each episode....just to clear the story? ...and people will gladly buy.

[kyuuketsuki]

If you really want to take a glimpse at how SEGA handles cash shops and tears apart its own population, just look at GC.

Before GC the jpn servers were populated...Now after all the GC spent by its players and the way the economy works there, you go from 2 Servers and Many Universes to One Server and 8 universes....which is starting to reach the level of emptiness at times out of events of PC/PS2.Correlation does not imply causation. JP PSU could very well have died just as fast, if not faster, without GC. Note: I'm not saying I support the GC idea at all.

Who needs a cash shop when SEGA with PSO and PSU can just make games for different platforms and force players to buy each platform and even pay money to buy the same game multiple times for each episode....just to clear the story? ...and people will gladly buy.
Uh, with all the PSO versions, there was no way to do an expansion due to the limitations of the console platform at the time. It was either do it that way or never update it at all. I'm not sure with PSU, I didn't stick around long enough for AoI to come out.

With the PC-only format, it would be lame if they did expansions as full-fledged releases and charged full-game price. I doubt they'll do that though.

[Keilyn]

Your statement is false. The games were updated and all the content was on the disks. When new content was created they made a completely new version of the game. Also, there was PSObb which was on the PC-platform, so "All" does not apply. There was also a Xbox version that was updated for a while because Xbox had its own disk. This did not last long.

I know people who spent money on the original PSU (including myself) on PC. They then spent FULL price to buy AoTI to continue the story with Episode II. Those who REFUSED to buy AoTI were forced into it. A day came when SEGA told players they would no longer support the original PSU in network mode. They bought AoTI, just to have the PC/PS2 servers shutdown later.

If you refused to play Network mode, you could not see the episode III story, simple as that.

So you had to buy the game twice, then play network mode to see the whole story....and this was a game on PC. Sure, it was ported from PS2, but I owned both PC games. Then if you wanted to continue playing the game you had to BUY either a 360 and PAY FOR THE GAME AGAIN or go through PSUJP...Both cases you had to start over.

If you were native Japanese. It was worse....

First they bought the original PS2 game, then they were told the original was not supported after a certain point so they were forced into buying AoTI or no longer have network mode work. Finally a day came when SEGA cut of Playstation 2 support directly and if you wanted to play you needed to go out BUY or BUILD a PC and then actually download the game, install, update and play it.