players own drops

[adonis565]

did they mention if each player will have different drops like in psp2 and PS0

[Bomber The Cosmonaut]

Yeah.

[ARASHIKAGE]

I like the idea, though I'm not sure if you will be able to drop items for your teammates because of this. Which would suck if you buddy needs more trimates or if you want to drop some moon atomizers on the ground during a boss fight. It might have to go through some annoying players selection and trade window before you can hand it off to someone (ala monster hunter). That process is really annoying and has no place in a fast paced game (imo).

Item usage down time is a great idea, and works very well to create team stratagy and character awareness. I'm all for this, plus it gives Forces a bigger healing responsibility on the battle field.

Back to individual player drops: Does anyone think it might take away from some of your excitement of finding a rare weapon? Sense you will be the only one that sees it drop.

[Zynetic]

If the item you find is flashed along the information area (a la PSPo2), I wouldn't think the excitement would be taken away at all.

Also pretty sure that you'd be able to drop items for other people. It was possible in PSPo2's challenge mode (although I'm not sure if the drops were separate there or not. I haven't played with anyone ;;).

[WiZ1988]

So since the drops are different for each party member does this mean pso2 will have section ids? Like whitill, skyly, pinkal etc.

[Kent]

So since the drops are different for each party member does this mean pso2 will have section ids? Like whitill, skyly, pinkal etc.
It's inconsequential; it has no meaning as to whether it does or does not have section IDs.

All it means is, if you see an item get dropped, you're the only one that can see it and pick it up - excluding those dropped by other players, of course (which everyone can see and pick up).

[Angelo]

As long as we can trade any of the items, I think this will be fine.

The worst part of PSP2 is that you cannot trade anything.

[Randomness]

As long as we can trade any of the items, I think this will be fine.

The worst part of PSP2 is that you cannot trade anything.

This. PSZ had the same drop system, but no trade restrictions. That was perfect, imo.

I mean, random distribution, order distribution, etc. works great... 90% of the time. Then you have assholes who boot everyone when rare monsters spawn, or the boss dies, etc. With player-specific drops, it's still random who gets what, but the party leader can't be a jerk to get more loot.

[StriderTuna]

Yeah I found that terribly odd about PSPo2: the inability to trade things you'd want traded most. It might have lead to some of the hacking that goes in the PSPo2 community.

[r00tabaga]

I don't understand why pspo2 did that. Only consumables and A & B rank items are tradeable? Laim. PSO2 better not do this. Was Infinity the same way? I know they made other improvements to gameplay & trading Kubara & A's would even be ok.

[KodiaX987]

Best idea ever.

Wanna hog items? Go ahead. Only you can see and get them.

Don't like the feeling of someone snatching a super-rare from right under your nose? No fear, since you wouldn't even notice anyway.

Best idea ever.

[Angelo]

I do feel that this idea has eliminated the idea of player courtesy.

To be fair though, it seems like online etiquette has changed a bit since PSO.

[Jinketsu]

It's probably the best way to do a literal drop loot system.

[Complex_Jao]

I fear that because of this, there will be no trading. That will completely defeat the purpose of the game IMO. The reason I don't play pspo2 is because of the lack of trading.

[BIG OLAF]

I loved this system in PSZ, PSP2, and PSP2i. I'm very, very glad that SEGA decided to use it for PSO2. Makes the game a lot less stressful, I think. Don't have to worry about other people not sharing and/or generally being dickish about items.

However, I hope they don't go all the way down the PSP2/i route, and not allow players to trade good items.

[Akaimizu]

Number 1 thing it stops. The silly leader booting at Boss box thing.

[Anon_Fire]

This is much better than PSO and PSU

[RenzokukenZ]

I fear that because of this, there will be no trading. That will completely defeat the purpose of the game IMO. The reason I don't play pspo2 is because of the lack of trading.

The reason items weren't tradable in PSP2 is due to the save data being entirely within the player's control, so it would have been extremely easy for anyone to create multiple copies of the data and give themselves or others dupes of many items.

So even though PSO2 will take PSP2's loot system, it wouldn't necessarily need the trade-lock as the data will most likely be on the server side.

[WiZ1988]

I really hope pso2 doesn't do what was done on infinity with trades.

[Complex_Jao]

The reason items weren't tradable in PSP2 is due to the save data being entirely within the player's control, so it would have been extremely easy for anyone to create multiple copies of the data and give themselves or others dupes of many items.

So even though PSO2 will take PSP2's loot system, it wouldn't necessarily need the trade-lock as the data will most likely be on the server side.

Yah know I never thought about that so I now have restored faith in pso2

[Hucast-Kireek]

great i loved PSZ's drop system.

[rezakon]

As long as my drops are my own, my team mates are belong to them and anything I drop is free-for-all then I'm happy.

[RemiusTA]

I like the idea, though I'm not sure if you will be able to drop items for your teammates because of this. Which would suck if you buddy needs more trimates or if you want to drop some moon atomizers on the ground during a boss fight. It might have to go through some annoying players selection and trade window before you can hand it off to someone (ala monster hunter). That process is really annoying and has no place in a fast paced game (imo).

Item usage down time is a great idea, and works very well to create team stratagy and character awareness. I'm all for this, plus it gives Forces a bigger healing responsibility on the battle field.

Back to individual player drops: Does anyone think it might take away from some of your excitement of finding a rare weapon? Sense you will be the only one that sees it drop.

This is honestly the reason i really hate this form of drops.

On the one hand, you're eliminating problems between teammates when fighting over drops. But on the other hand, you're also eliminating a huge factor of teamwork and connection with the players. Sure, you wont have to complain about drops anymore, but when everything is on a per-character basis, it really disconnects you from the team. It's almost like making the game half-single player and half-multiplayer.


I don't think i or anyone else has ever had a problem with just "Hey, can i use that Trifluid that dropped?" Or, "Hey, Sally died, who picked up that Moon Atomizer that dropped in that other room", or "Hey do you need that ???? Sword you just found i could really use it". Not to mention, this pretty much destroys 50% of the purpose of "Section ID's" in the first place. The excitement of seeing what other classes may drop is gone because....well, you'll never see what the other class drops unless they tell you. Which i believe is an extremely, extremely stupid feature in a party-based online game.



I think that removing that aspect is going to make the game not as fun. Not "GAME BREAKING", but still not as fun. Afterall, i never had an issue with just putting the rare drops on "Random" to make it 100% fair between everybody. And in all honestly, it's really no different than a per-character drop system. There is no difference between random pickups and per-character drops. The only difference is you get to whine like a kid when you're the one who sees it/picks it up, but not the one who gets it. But in all truth it'd be absolutely no different than it simply not dropping for you in the first place.




Per-character drops are really just a catering to whiny little babies, IMO. It's a Win/Lose situation. In my opinion, the loss is far greater than the gain. They'll have to lower the drop rates on certain items as well, seeing as instead of 10 drop chances for 10 enemies in a party of 6, it's 60 drop chances for 10 enemies. So you're losing something anyway.

I dont think they had to do this on PSP2 because you couldn't trade anything useful. But doing that on PSO2 would cripple the game so badly it would seriously ruin any kind of long-term fun you could have with it.

[amtalx]

Per character drops are really the way to go. It removes the politics from item acquisition, which is a needless distraction. How many times has a rare enemy died, only to have a party wide stampede toward the rare box? Pretty much every time. It's disruptive to the party when everyone disengages from a fight to satisfy their greed and curiosity. Per character drops eliminate this because you know that rare isn't' going anywhere. Players are more likely to continue their roles in the battle until it's actually over, instead of trying to cleverly position themselves so they don't miss out on the booty.

Besides, it's purely psychological. It has zero effect on actual gameplay. There will likely be plenty of players that walk in without any prior knowledge of the drop system, and it will be completely transparent to them. PSO is a game where the main conceit is to work as a team killing monsters to acquire items and gain power. A new drop system does nothing to change that. You'll still receive drops, and there is nothing to prevent communication between other players about what they've received.

[Anon_Fire]

This is honestly the reason i really hate this form of drops.

On the one hand, you're eliminating problems between teammates when fighting over drops. But on the other hand, you're also eliminating a huge factor of teamwork and connection with the players. Sure, you wont have to complain about drops anymore, but when everything is on a per-character basis, it really disconnects you from the team. It's almost like making the game half-single player and half-multiplayer.


I don't think i or anyone else has ever had a problem with just "Hey, can i use that Trifluid that dropped?" Or, "Hey, Sally died, who picked up that Moon Atomizer that dropped in that other room", or "Hey do you need that ???? Sword you just found i could really use it". Not to mention, this pretty much destroys 50% of the purpose of "Section ID's" in the first place. The excitement of seeing what other classes may drop is gone because....well, you'll never see what the other class drops unless they tell you. Which i believe is an extremely, extremely stupid feature in a party-based online game.



I think that removing that aspect is going to make the game not as fun. Not "GAME BREAKING", but still not as fun. Afterall, i never had an issue with just putting the rare drops on "Random" to make it 100% fair between everybody. And in all honestly, it's really no different than a per-character drop system. There is no difference between random pickups and per-character drops. The only difference is you get to whine like a kid when you're the one who sees it/picks it up, but not the one who gets it. But in all truth it'd be absolutely no different than it simply not dropping for you in the first place.




Per-character drops are really just a catering to whiny little babies, IMO. It's a Win/Lose situation. In my opinion, the loss is far greater than the gain. They'll have to lower the drop rates on certain items as well, seeing as instead of 10 drop chances for 10 enemies in a party of 6, it's 60 drop chances for 10 enemies. So you're losing something anyway.

I dont think they had to do this on PSP2 because you couldn't trade anything useful. But doing that on PSO2 would cripple the game so badly it would seriously ruin any kind of long-term fun you could have with it.

Drops set to random really fustrates me sometimes, I for one am glad they used PSP2's drop system for PSO2. Would I want to fight with my friends over rare drops in a mission? No.

Calling certain drops can get boring most of the time.

[RemiusTA]

Per character drops are really the way to go. It removes the politics from item acquisition, which is a needless distraction. How many times has a rare enemy died, only to have a party wide stampede toward the rare box? Pretty much every time. It's disruptive to the party when everyone disengages from a fight to satisfy their greed and curiosity. Per character drops eliminate this because you know that rare isn't' going anywhere. Players are more likely to continue their roles in the battle until it's actually over, instead of trying to cleverly position themselves so they don't miss out on the booty.

I dont think i've EVER been in a situation in PSO where our battle efficiency is lowered due to anticipation of enemy drops.

I understand where you're coming from, but that's about 95% fabrication. Even in games like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden, going after collectibles is hardly a "disengaging" or "inefficient" pasttime, because it takes no effort to do. Not to mention, alot of the time, the objects that drop during battle are things that are keeping you alive. There are countless moments in PSU/PSP2/PSO where ignoring dropped items while fighting does nothing but get you killed.

The ONLY liability for going after items i can think of is that annoying thing that happens in PSO where you go to pick it up, but either a) someone already got it before you or b) your inventory is full, and instead of picking it up you swing your weapon and have to wait to move again. But that hasn't happened since PSU, where the item confirm button has been separate from the attack button so it doesn't matter anyway.




Besides, it's purely psychological. It has zero effect on actual gameplay. There will likely be plenty of players that walk in without any prior knowledge of the drop system, and it will be completely transparent to them. PSO is a game where the main conceit is to work as a team killing monsters to acquire items and gain power. A new drop system does nothing to change that. You'll still receive drops, and there is nothing to prevent communication between other players about what they've received.It has plenty effect on gameplay.

More things have effect on gameplay as a whole than most people realize, and to think that the drop method doesn't is pretty foolish.

For example, there are applications that are possible with universal drops that are simply not possible with per-character drops, unless the stage is programmed before hand to make them possible. For example, a box that only drops a single handgun on a challenge map, forcing only one character to be the designated ranger. Simple things that can go a very long way. Now, something like that is easily possible on per-character drops if it was designed to be that way, but at the same time you're still losing the interaction between the players. However small you may think it is, it's definitely there.

Of course, people who haven't experienced it wouldn't be able to tell. But that doesn't make it any better.


People who say they fight over other characters for drops astound me. I don't think it's EVER happened to me, after all my years of playing PSO and PSU. Phantasy Star just isn't a game like that. I've had more experience in PSU simply asking for the board that dropped and having a player hand it over than actually seeing arguments over stupid shit like that. It's almost like hearing people complain and bitch about "Elitists" on PSU. Where were you people playing? I maybe got kicked for elitist reasons about 5 times maximum in PSU in thousands of hours of playing. And if it was anymore than that, i forgot because it rarely happened anyway and nobody gives a shit.

[Hrith]

I don't like the idea of personal drops, either.

Honestly, the fewer ideas they take from PSP2(i), the better =/

[amtalx]

@Remius:
We must be playing different games.

[zombiemoshpit84]

this drop system brings players together promoting team work. know one has to party with friends only or solo due to fear of there drops getting taken. you can play with several partys of strangers and have no fear of getting beat for your loot. in psp2 you could still drop items for other players like moons traps and mates, so i have no idea why there are over 10 posts of ppl saying we wont be able to do so. not to mention if you do the math this means more loot in the player shops. think of a 6 player party in psu then think if all of them got there own drops like psp2. six times the loot going into the community and an increased drop rate per player. in psu if something drops only one drops in pso2 the same rare drop can drop for several different players. its true you can tell a pso fan any great news and it will turn into "your worst nightmare" thread and cause a panic lol

[zombiemoshpit84]

I don't like the idea of personal drops, either.

Honestly, the fewer ideas they take from PSP2(i), the better =/

so you like the idea of entire severs playing solo or booting each other every time a rare anything shows up? i want to meet new players without the fear of seeing the item i want get snatched up under my feet or being booted for jaos or rappys.

[RemiusTA]

i sware to god i have never been booted for rare enemies before.

I've never even been Boss Box booted before.

[Ceresa]

this drop system brings players together promoting team work. know one has to party with friends only or solo due to fear of there drops getting taken. you can play with several partys of strangers and have no fear of getting beat for your loot. in psp2 you could still drop items for other players like moons traps and mates, so i have no idea why there are over 10 posts of ppl saying we wont be able to do so. not to mention if you do the math this means more loot in the player shops. think of a 6 player party in psu then think if all of them got there own drops like psp2. six times the loot going into the community and an increased drop rate per player. in psu if something drops only one drops in pso2 the same rare drop can drop for several different players. its true you can tell a pso fan any great news and it will turn into "your worst nightmare" thread and cause a panic lol

Teamwork is people actually giving up a limited quantity of an item. When everyone has a monomate or psychowand drop it cheapens the gesture and sacrifice made to give it up. And six times the loot intake? Delusional. Six chances at drops means the individual drop rate just got reduced by 1/6. They have a pretty large incentive to not increase the droprate and drag the lifespan of the game after all. Every single player being forced to waste time looting every single enemy is just icing on the shit cake.


so you like the idea of entire severs playing solo or booting each other every time a rare anything shows up? i want to meet new players without the fear of seeing the item i want get snatched up under my feet or being booted for jaos or rappys.

Such an overblown complaint. It's sure never happened to me, and if it does, so what? Loot doesn't define my character, my playstyle or anything of the sort, so no stress on my end. Shit will drop again, shit will spawn again, and now you have the name of a jackass to avoid playing with.

Tessa STOLE my Lame D'argent! Words cannot express how depressed I am right now.

[darkante]

Player own drops sounds like the right approach.
No fuzz.

Although, they can keep the text showing what rare you picked up.
So it still feels in spirit with the serie.

[Omega-z]

It's not game breaking that they did it that way. And it's better that way. If anything They could just list the rare off to the side like in PSU for everyone to see if there that worried about what others get. They did it in PSU because it was Free for all or every man for themselves (which was dumb and sucked in PSO & PSU) and so showing off the rare help to confirm who had what and that item drop there that's it nothing else. And I rather not have ppl known what I got in the first place, just for cg that's meh since you can just say what you got not Game Breaking. Commons just pick up and drop if you don't need them not Game Breaking. I rather work a little harder for my rewards instead of leaching off others for them or making a mad dash for them. lol you got very lucky my friend that you haven't had problems with that sort of thing and that's good and hope it keep's up but to say that it doesn't exsist like Phantasy Star just isn't a game like that, Is not true and it happens all the time with player's in both PSO & PSU. Also the market in PSU reflected off it too. But the only per-Char drops is the best way for PS to grow, out with the old and in with new. Otherwise you'll be left in the dust.

[RemiusTA]

Teamwork is people actually giving up a limited quantity of an item. When everyone has a monomate or psychowand drop it cheapens the gesture and sacrifice made to give it up. And six times the loot intake? Delusional. Six chances at drops means the individual drop rate just got reduced by 1/6. They have a pretty large incentive to not increase the droprate and drag the lifespan of the game after all. Every single player being forced to waste time looting every single enemy is just icing on the shit cake.



Such an overblown complaint. It's sure never happened to me, and if it does, so what? Loot doesn't define my character, my playstyle or anything of the sort, so no stress on my end. Shit will drop again, shit will spawn again, and now you have the name of a jackass to avoid playing with.

Tessa STOLE my Lame D'argent! Words cannot express how depressed I am right now.

I dont agree with shit this guy says half the time, but there is naught but truth here.


Player-specific drops are just completely unnecessary.

[Mag-X]

As someone who likes to play rangers, I think this is a great idea. Hunters got EVERYTHING in PSO since items just dropped at their feet. In PSU with rares set to random, when I did finally get to a rare drop first, some other ass hole always got it.

[Hrith]

Exactly, 1/6th the DR is untolerable.

PSO and PSU were fine without personal item drops, not perfect, but it worked well.

Meet my blacklist, thief!

[amtalx]

As someone who likes to play rangers, I think this is a great idea. Hunters got EVERYTHING in PSO since items just dropped at their feet. In PSU with rares set to random, when I did finally get to a rare drop first, some other ass hole always got it.
I can sympathize with being a Ranger in PSO. The DC days single-handedly honed my loot ninja skills. They were so strong it took me many months of PSU to break the habit of positioning for rare drops. At least you won't drop your weapon when you die in PSO2. D:

As far as the 1/6 drops are concerned, I'm inclined to wait and see how drops are actually calculated. Statistical assumptions make me very uncomfortable. Even if the drop rate adjustment is linear, I couldn't care less as long as the proper number of items are introduced into the ecosystem as a whole. Besides, if PSO2 ends up being this utopia of teamwork like everyone is claiming, you'll have unfettered access to your entire party's drops anyway.

[Mracless]

If you play with 5 other people with random drops, your chance of getting the item is 1/6 of what it was if you were alone anyway...

Individual drops is just the best solution. It gives no incentive to soloing for loot, so it's actually worth playing with other people who aren't your friends.

People who dared to say "If so and so drops, you have to give it to me" when playing with randoms, just piss me off. How dare you. You have no god-given right to that item.

In the end, it's very similar to just having the items set to random.
Your chance of getting a coveted item is 1/6 (well normal on an individual drop system, but I think most people will understand what I'm on about) with 5 other people on either system,
except it drops only on your screen (and one enemy might drop more than one item), so there are no arguments to be had and no reason for people to boot others.
And all you people who never experienced arguments or booting, wonderful. I'm glad you haven't had to experience it, but it happened and many other people have experiences of it.

And since you will most definitely be able to trade in PSO2, you can ask your FRIENDS (not random people) "If any of you get [item name here], will you give it to me?"
Then you can increase your chances of getting an item by the number of people who agree to do so.

Edit: Err... 3 other people, 1/4 drop rates and all that stuff! Only 4 people per team in PSO2. But you know what I'm talking about!

[RemiusTA]

PSU's community is elitist and terrible, PSO is outdated and useless, PSP2i is unbearingly difficult, PvP would break the economy ruin the community and turn the game into an elitist cesspool, Armor would stunt "individuality", Bikinis would destroy atmosphere, the game apparently is some completely unique and magical form of massively multiplayer online game that avoids the title "MMO", and Sega doesn't take anatomy classes.

Oh yeah, and apparently universal drops ruined teamwork killed party efficiency turned everyone into a looting thief reduced the servers to Solo rooms and apparently turned PSO/PSU into a "Free-For-All Every Man For Himself" game with a terrible community who booted people from boss boxes and monopolized rare spawns.


Did miss anything? Thank jesus for PSP2, the other two titles were just absolutely UNBEARABLE...

[Randomness]

I can sympathize with being a Ranger in PSO. The DC days single-handedly honed my loot ninja skills. They were so strong it took me many months of PSU to break the habit of positioning for rare drops. At least you won't drop your weapon when you die in PSO2. D:

As far as the 1/6 drops are concerned, I'm inclined to wait and see how drops are actually calculated. Statistical assumptions make me very uncomfortable. Even if the drop rate adjustment is linear, I couldn't care less as long as the proper number of items are introduced into the ecosystem as a whole. Besides, if PSO2 ends up being this utopia of teamwork like everyone is claiming, you'll have unfettered access to your entire party's drops anyway.

Party size is 4, btw.

Also, having dynamically modified drop rates would require them to not increase mid-run (or you'd still get rare enemy/boss booting). That said, I'd rather they had them be something like 1,2/3,1/2,1/3 or something. Also, people complaining about reduced drop rates... you realize that in a 6-person party on random distribution, your odds of getting something from an enemy were already 1/6 the actual rate, right?

The only possible downside I've yet heard is lower drop rates in solo runs. The upside is not having to deal with people abusing kicks for rares. The drop rate can be modified based on how many people are in the run (I think it should only update after say, 10 kills, maybe, to prevent rare enemy or boss kicks - they'd be stuck with the lower rate).

If someone can raise an objection other than lower solo drop rates (Actually, the best solution: Set the party cap for your run, have drop rate modified by that alone!), I'd love to hear it. Because you already had drops being forcefully distributed in PSU. Except now an enemy could give a rare to each person in the party, not just one. That spawn of two rappies? You aren't screwed once two other people get rares.

[Mracless]

PSU's community is elitist and terrible, PSO is outdated and useless, PSP2i is unbearingly difficult, PvP would break the economy ruin the community and turn the game into an elitist cesspool, Armor would stunt "individuality", Bikinis would destroy atmosphere, the game apparently is some completely unique and magical form of massively multiplayer online game that avoids the title "MMO", and Sega doesn't take anatomy classes.

Oh yeah, and apparently universal drops ruined teamwork killed party efficiency turned everyone into a looting thief reduced the servers to Solo rooms and apparently turned PSO/PSU into a "Free-For-All Every Man For Himself" game with a terrible community who booted people from boss boxes and monopolized rare spawns.


Did miss anything? Thank jesus for PSP2, the other two titles were just absolutely UNBEARABLE...

Remius, you're really lucky you got through PSO and PSU without anyone throwing a hissy fit when someone else got their item
and you must have been leader/played with friends/been really fugging lucky to have never been booted PSU because someone else wanted drops.

You can keep on believing that other people are making all this stuff, even though PSU was patched to stop people from kicking after a mission was complete.

But you know, even if these universal drop systems worked just barely, doesn't mean they should continue to be used.
An individual drop system works as well and works much better in my own opinion and in the opinion of most others.
Individual drops will still allow a team spirit. You'll still be able to ask people to give you items.
Individual drops increase team spirit, in my opinion. Because everyone just plays and has fun together and there are never any quibbles over items (which really happened, even though you don't believe it).

[amtalx]

rabble rabble
It's never happened to me or my friends; therefore, it's never happened to anyone else. Ever.

Q.E.D.

[Malachite]

I don't think he's trying to say those things never happened/aren't real, I believe he's just pointing out how everyone makes a ridiculously stupid big deal about them.

Which is true.

[Fayorei]

I don't really care one way or the other for the drops being personalized, but I can see why they did it.

On the other hand, I'm really hoping Section ID makes a return, so not making every box accessible to each person is fine, but it'd be cool if the person who made the room controlled at least the drop chart for everyone depending on Section ID. More incentive to party in my opinion.

[Omega-z]

I think that's an awesome Idea Fayorei to add Section ID for different drops and would be more PSO style of play. Redia Hunter get Red Sword, Pinkal Force get's Rappsity Rod, Blueful Ranger get's Assassin Silencer..... and on and on for each ID is cool.:)

[Tetsaru]

Personally, I'm VERY happy that they're using the PSZ drop method, because I'll no longer have to deal with any of this crap:

[spoiler-box]
"Random!? Random's stupid, put it on Set in Order!"
"NOOOO, Set in Order is exploitable! Leave it on Random!"
"But then one person will end up getting everything! SET IN ORDER!!!1"
"Fuck you guys, I'm putting it on Finder!"

"Stop picking up junk items, I don't need that stuff clogging up my inventory!"
*character is carrying tons of extraneous equipment on them for missions they don't even need them on, and refuses to teleport back to their room to deposit/withdraw them as necessary*

*insert rare 15* boss drop here*
*party leader boots everyone else*

"I'm calling *insert rare here*, if you get it, you have to give it to me!"

*inventory is full*
*someone else picks up rare item*
Tetsaru
Skip: *insert said rare item*

- melee characters picking up all the items/money before ranged/force characters can even run up to them, especially on Finder
[/spoiler-box]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I recall on PSZ, if someone DROPS an item, then anyone can grab it, so I assume PSO2 will do the same thing.

Other than that, I don't see how that would affect trading, unless the items in question were account-bound in some way. Now personally, I'd like to see certain items account-bound, which have to be EARNED through quests or other methods, because I don't believe that you should easily be able to give a 15* sword to a Lv. 1 character (or have them buy it from a player shop for cheap) and have them be able to use it within relatively low levels... but just the stuff you really have to work for. It's much more fulfilling in my opinion to be given your very own item as a reward for an insanely difficult mission imo then having to deal with low spawn/drop rates, or buy the best stuff in the game for B-rank item NPC prices in player shops. I'm not saying that items CAN'T be obtained that way, but they need to be regulated in a sensible manner.

Of course, at that point, one problem would remain: what should be done with account-bound items that the player doesn't want to hold onto anymore? My solutions:


Allow the item to be upgraded into a completely newer, better item through some sort of synthing process. However, this would most likely require some sort of extra time investment into the game: leveling up your synthing abilities (whatever that may entail, perhaps leveling an entirely different job, or something like feeding a PM or MAG), or going through dangerous areas to find the rare materials needed, finding a well-hidden or time/event-based NPC that can provide unique services for you, but only after proving your worth to him/her somehow, etc.


Convert the item into a unique form of currency that can be used to obtain other difficult-to-obtain or account-bound items... something along the lines of PSU's PA Fragments or FFXIV's Guild Marks and Company Seals.


Make the item tradeable, but ONLY if the receiving player meets certain conditions:

- Has he/she completed the quest needed to obtain this item already?

- Does he/she already possess a copy of this item, and if so, can you have more than one?

- Does the player meet a certain level and/or stat requirement?

Etc., etc.


Discard or NPC-sell the item. A quick and simple, yet much less desirable alternative.


I also would like to see the return of Section ID's, but at least allow players to choose their own and see a description of what each one does. That, and I think it'd be cool to see an in-game guild associated with each ID that you could do quests and missions for, and get unique rewards in return that reflect that Section ID; for example, Yellowboze could be a very economy-fueled guild that would give you tons of meseta or other forms of currency as rewards, or allow you to get discounts on NPC prices; Redria would be more combat-based, and could give you swords with unique properties and/or higher stats than other same-rank swords, or exclusive sword PA's; Bluefull could be based around protecting others, and would thus offer the best armor; Pinkal would provide for other people and give you benefits towards synthing... and then there could be quests that involve the cooperation or competition between each guild - there could be tons of possibilities.

[AfroGuy!]

i like the account bound item thing, they should do that with the lavis cannon

[StriderTuna]

You know even in PSZ, there's a level requirement on weapons so the best you can do is give a max-grinded low level weapon. And making items harder to trade in general would only hinder more than it'd help.

[BIG OLAF]

Oh, there's always people that disagree with everything. People will always find a way to bitch. It never ceases to astound me.

[Enforcer MKV]

Oh, there's always people that disagree with everything. People will always find a way to bitch. It never ceases to astound me.

The one constant of the world, am I right? ^^;

[Fayorei]

In reading that post about the PSU drop/loot settings drama... HOLY CRAP! It must have gotten pretty bad on there for that, but then again that's random parties of course. Though it'll be nice to not have that kind of thing happen anymore.

[RemiusTA]

It's never happened to me or my friends; therefore, it's never happened to anyone else. Ever.

Q.E.D.

More like it rarely happens to anyone, quit bitching about it so much. You people take absolutely EVERYTHING you disagree with here and build arguments against it based on the most EXTREME scenarios you can fathom in your heads.


It's seriously just getting old, man. Things would go so much smoother if people would just use a bit of rationality. Im not going to lie and say i support per-character drops, but im not going to go off like "IT'LL RUIN THE WHOLE GAME EVERYONE DROPS WILL BE SO THIN NOBODY WILL GET ANYTHING YOULL HAVE TO TRADE EVERYTING YOU WANT AND THE FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE LUCKY TO GET THE RARES ARE GOING TO BE SO RICH THEY'LL CONTROLL THE WHOLE MARKET AND THE GAME WILL CRASH BECAUSE THEY'LL TURN INTO ELITISTS AND RUIN THE COMMUNITY"

I dont think Per-character is an amazing idea because while you solve problems, you really aren't doing anything to make the game any better. There is NO DIFFERENCE in randomizing the drops and making them drop on a per-character basis. But there IS a difference in per-character drops and universal drops. If you lack the social skills to handle something like that, what's the point in playing an MMO in the first place?



Look, if there is anyone who has been personally plagued by boss box booters and rare spawn booters in PSU, please identify yourselves. And by plagued, i mean enough to make you question the community of PSU. Because if you actually thought PSU's community was somehow BAD, you're probably emotionally unstable. Or have terrible Luck. Or, terrible Karma, and deserved it anyway. Either way, you probably want to quit at MMOs if you dislike PSU's community, because it will ONLY get worse from here. PSO/PSU probably has one of THE most generous gear-based communities you'll EVER encounter online. Ever.


And if you're going to claim some terrible looting problem from PSO, im just going to ignore you. You'd absolutely have to be trolling at that point.

[•Col•]

Maybe separate drops are a good thing. Even though I don't really like the idea...

For a second, imagine if there wasn't a separate drop system.

Now imagine a red box dropping in a 12 player multiparty area.

[RemiusTA]

....how is that different than when one drops in a 4-player party? Or a 6-player party? What, is everyone just going to make a MAD DASH for the one red box that probably was picked up the MOMENT an enemy was killed?

"Wow, hey what was it" "Oh, neat man i cant wait to get one" "congrats lol" "AWWWW DAMMIT LOL i want one" "Oh here i have one already, you can have this one lol"


Have people simply forgotten how to not whine? More importantly, did everyone just suddenly forget that PSO and PSU existed?

And even if it was a problem, how is this any different than if it was on a per-character basis? A red box would drop and you STILL wouldn't get one. The only difference is that it was completely in the minds of the computer, and that you can't bitch to the other players in your party.....wait, that sounds awfully familiar; It kind of sounds like Random Assignment.


And i highly doubt the multiparty system will allow you to see drops from the other parties. They said most techniques wont even affect them. You aren't in a 12 player party, you're in a party of 4 with 2 other parties fighting with you.

[•Col•]

....how is that different than when one drops in a 4-player party? Or a 6-player party? What, is everyone just going to make a MAD DASH for the one red box that probably was picked up the MOMENT an enemy was killed?

...Yes?

[RemiusTA]

Colaya, tell me one instance where a valuable red box existed on any 6-player OR 4-player stage for more than a maximum of 5 seconds.

[amtalx]

@Colaya:
That was certainly the case for PSO, but that was a long time ago. PSU had it's issues, but was a significant improvement. I'm expecting PSO2 to alleviate the issues altogether.

[•Col•]

Colaya, tell me one instance where a valuable red box existed on any 6-player OR 4-player stage for more than a maximum of 5 seconds.

Huh? That's what I was talking about. It'd be every man for himself. No courtesy there.

Example:
A rare item drops! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BNbHBcnDI&t=0m29s)

[amtalx]

Well played, sir.

Advantage Coloya.

[Stezan]

The only time I can ever recall people willingly giving up rares in PSO was either low-level rares like Varista and Photon Claw to newer players and dupers and hackers giving out anything to everybody because, why not.

Hell, Player stores in PSU were more community-altering than this issue as you could put a value on anything. Now you had less incentive to just give anything away because it took no effort to use the store rather than find someone who wanted your useless junk on your own.

My point is that I don't see any community impact between having a Random Distribution System like PSU and a Separate-Drops-Per-Character system like PSZ. If the only difference is that you don't get to see the RedBox, chances are you didn't see it because it was only visible for, 5 seconds, I believe was the example given?

[blazingsonic]

Hey I like this, the only way I could get any weapons I wanted was to solo, which on PSU was super tough since free missions needed a team effort, the thing was I always and I do man ALWAYS had some person who would take the rare I call and run off, usually a fake DC.

[voxie]

As long as we can trade, I don't mind about how drops are distributed at all. :)

[Enforcer MKV]

Huh? That's what I was talking about. It'd be every man for himself. No courtesy there.

Example:
A rare item drops! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BNbHBcnDI&t=0m29s)

......Ok, that's like......+5 internetz RIGHT THERE.

Anyway, in all seriousness, I'd like to see the box return....and hybrid it.....Like so - you clear the room, and the box spawns. Someone hits the box, and the items rain out, but see, everyone has their own drops to pick up, and they're all neatly in the middle of the room.

I think that would be best, but it seems like that won't happen.

EDIT: But, sadly, yes, I must say that I just expect a mad dash for the reds by EVERYONE. I saw it in PSU, and it wasn't pretty. I'm just glad that I was able to survive without rares, and could purchase up to 9* by myself. And I surely won't worry about reds in this game, because I'll be focused on doing my job...shooting stuff, with the bad heal every now and again.

[RedRaz0r]

I just hope there is trading. If not, I will be thoroughly upset. For each player to have their own drops, I think that sounds perfect. As long as we can trade

[RemiusTA]

Im just surprised that after all this time, suddenly PSU has all these terrible problems due to red boxes.

I dont remember anyone EVER dashing for a red box, because i dont remember a time where any PSU party didn't EVER automatically have rares set to "Random".

In fact, the chance rares were on "finder" or "set in order" was so ridiculously rare that they could have taken it off the game and nobody would have cared. And this goes all the way back to PSUv1.




Buutttt nobody seems to notice this, so whatever. We'll see how it turns out in-game. I personally hate feeling so disconnected from the game, and will personally miss the feeling of soloing to get more drops than usual. But at least we get to solve all those community problems, and at least people will FINALLY FOCUS on KILLING ENEMIES. Because apparently people just ran around in circles in PSU. Maybe now people will FINALLY be able to walk into a room and have trouble tagging enemies because they die too fast.


Oh wait.

[Pillan]

As a note, they also confirmed that you do not have to tag enemies anymore and just get EXP for being in the room. So, yes, coupled with this update, you can just focus on killing everything really fast instead without worry about tagging or feeling cheated out of rares.

[Fayorei]

As a note, they also confirmed that you do not have to tag enemies anymore and just get EXP for being in the room. So, yes, coupled with this update, you can just focus on killing everything really fast instead without worry about tagging or feeling cheated out of rares.

I think I'm WAY more excited about the tagging being eliminated. That was an ancient mechanic, and made it harder for certain classes to get in on the action before all the mobs got blasted.:)

Rare distribution issues will always be hit or miss with people though. Someone could be really lucky or unlucky in random parties, etc. It's a problem in more than this game though (Woo WoW loot ninjas in Dungeon Finder!) but I don't really mind the fact that they're giving players their own player-side drops, but using the same drop chart the whole game would be very stale. I hope they at least vary that by whoever starts the room.

[r00tabaga]

I think I'm WAY more excited about the tagging being eliminated. That was an ancient mechanic, and made it harder for certain classes to get in on the action before all the mobs got blasted.:)

Rare distribution issues will always be hit or miss with people though. Someone could be really lucky or unlucky in random parties, etc. It's a problem in more than this game though (Woo WoW loot ninjas in Dungeon Finder!) but I don't really mind the fact that they're giving players their own player-side drops, but using the same drop chart the whole game would be very stale. I hope they at least vary that by whoever starts the room.

Tagging for hunters wasnt as easy as pulling out a shotgun or grenade launcher like rangers could. Forces have never had a problem w/EXP but were screwed in PSO when it came to red boxes. I like pspo2's system of looting (except the no trade element) and look fwd to how the pso2's rares look this time around.

[Fayorei]

Tagging for hunters wasnt as easy as pulling out a shotgun or grenade launcher like rangers could. Forces have never had a problem w/EXP but were screwed in PSO when it came to red boxes. I like pspo2's system of looting (except the no trade element) and look fwd to how the pso2's rares look this time around.

AGREE. I played a HUnewearl all throughout PSO, and though tagging was definitely manageable, it's definitely a pain since you can't kill as fast since the FOs had to be slightly careful and couldn't nuke to the fullest.

I like both systems really. Best of both worlds like you said.

[•Col•]

PSO.......

Tagging; "It's what the Slicer was made for!"

[Sienna]

Because forces totally dish out so much damage

Might as well get stuck to being support preparing yourself to pick up the item the drops afterwards

[Randomness]

AGREE. I played a HUnewearl all throughout PSO, and though tagging was definitely manageable, it's definitely a pain since you can't kill as fast since the FOs had to be slightly careful and couldn't nuke to the fullest.

I like both systems really. Best of both worlds like you said.

You know, I never had FOs nuke down a room before I could tag them with a partisan or something unless the FO was horribly overleveled. Like level 60+ in hard or something.

Also, Holy Ray was win. I'd like to see someone kill an enemy before I can tag it with that out.

[Fayorei]

You know, I never had FOs nuke down a room before I could tag them with a partisan or something unless the FO was horribly overleveled. Like level 60+ in hard or something.

Also, Holy Ray was win. I'd like to see someone kill an enemy before I can tag it with that out.

Oh, I completely agree, FOs are one of the most polite classes out there.:)

It's just nice to kill without worrying about that sort of thing, y'know?

[Enforcer MKV]

Im just surprised that after all this time, suddenly PSU has all these terrible problems due to red boxes.

I dont remember anyone EVER dashing for a red box, because i dont remember a time where any PSU party didn't EVER automatically have rares set to "Random".

In fact, the chance rares were on "finder" or "set in order" was so ridiculously rare that they could have taken it off the game and nobody would have cared. And this goes all the way back to PSUv1.




Buutttt nobody seems to notice this, so whatever. We'll see how it turns out in-game. I personally hate feeling so disconnected from the game, and will personally miss the feeling of soloing to get more drops than usual. But at least we get to solve all those community problems, and at least people will FINALLY FOCUS on KILLING ENEMIES. Because apparently people just ran around in circles in PSU. Maybe now people will FINALLY be able to walk into a room and have trouble tagging enemies because they die too fast.


Oh wait.

.....wait, what? I'm sorry, I'm not on my meds. O.o

And my friends always had rares set to "Set in Order" >.>

[Sord]

Teamwork is people actually giving up a limited quantity of an item. When everyone has a monomate or psychowand drop it cheapens the gesture and sacrifice made to give it up. And six times the loot intake? Delusional. Six chances at drops means the individual drop rate just got reduced by 1/6. They have a pretty large incentive to not increase the droprate and drag the lifespan of the game after all. Every single player being forced to waste time looting every single enemy is just icing on the shit cake.

Out of this whole thread this seems to be the only legitimate worry against this drop system (outside it being 1/4, not 1/6, unless you're at a multiparty section that has 6 people.) Even then, we don't even know how heavily it will apply until hard statistics on calculations and drop rate percentages crop up.

Personally, I prefer the idea of this drop system. I realize others care about the rarity behind the weapon their wielding. That's cool, they're entitled to that. I, personally, don't care though. Which, for me at least, negates the only legitimate complaint I see against the system. So hoorah for separate drops. (b'_')b

[RemiusTA]

As a note, they also confirmed that you do not have to tag enemies anymore and just get EXP for being in the room. So, yes, coupled with this update, you can just focus on killing everything really fast instead without worry about tagging or feeling cheated out of rares.

It was a joke actually.

You know, im very, very surprised some odd argument didn't pop up about that feature and laziness.

[Hrith]

I'll no longer have to deal with any of this crap [...]Sometimes, I do wonder.

The PSU system was nearly perfect.
When I played, the distribution was always on Order, I always respected rare item calls, my inventory was never over 30/60 at the beginning of a mission, and it's never happened to me that I skipped a rare, and last but not least, in 11,000 hours clocked on PSU, I have been booted for rarz once, ONCE. Yes, my blacklist was full at one point, but it's never stopped me from enjoying the game one bit.

I really feel people want the game to make up for their own shortcomings.

[Pillan]

I really feel people want the game to make up for their own shortcomings.

I agree with that sentiment. However, if I was a corporation and my goal was to maximize profits and I knew that I would make more money by making up for someone else's shortcomings, I certainly would do it. Especially when the change is as simple as saying "everyone gets their own drops, so no more need to solo/kick people and you can hang out with randoms and look for rares at the same time."

Plus if there is still a trade system, you can still call rares with good friends and each group member is essentially four times more likely to find the one that they call. So it really seems like no harm to that dynamic at this point.

[KodiaX987]

Sometimes, I do wonder.

The PSU system was nearly perfect.
When I played, the distribution was always on Order, I always respected rare item calls, my inventory was never over 30/60 at the beginning of a mission, and it's never happened to me that I skipped a rare, and last but not least, in 11,000 hours clocked on PSU, I have been booted for rarz once, ONCE. Yes, my blacklist was full at one point, but it's never stopped me from enjoying the game one bit.

I really feel people want the game to make up for their own shortcomings.

The game has to be made in such a way as to protect the community against itself.

If you respect a guideline or an unwritten rule, you are the exception. Not the normality. Anything that can be exploited in a game will be exploited and with a massive vengeance. You can simply not trust the community into being good; therefore you must prevent them - mechanically - from being bad.

Take Left 4 Dead. It's supposed to have a co-op and a Versus mode. The game was made that the protagonists depend on each other. This would have worked wonders in a perfect world. Now here's all the ways I could grief my own team:


Kill myself.
Unload my gun on my teammates.
Purposely shoot game elements that spawn a zombie horde.
Destroy gas cans and propane tanks on sight.
Leave the game as soon as a votekick is called against me, then come back - the game does not ban someone who leaves even if a VK was initiated against him and passed.
Spam the different vote calls, preventing others from calling votes.


If co-op entered into a high difficulty mode, the likelihood of the above happening raised dramatically. If you played versus mode, the likelihood of the above happening was always high. The community is a cesspool of the worst of humanity for the simple reason that the game allows me to ruin other people's experience with no consequence. I can do whatever I want. It's so bad that the victims leave the game. This is not supposed to happen. I shouldn't have to throw my game in order to get rid of someone. Think about it for a second. Think about a game session becoming so FUBAR because of griefers that it's better off to actually start over from the beginning. Since the tools to get rid of griefers are both few and flawed, there is basically nothing you can do. Most people then suggest to play in a locked game with friends. But good luck finding four or eight friends to play with at a given time.

PSO had something going at least somewhat unintentionally in its first version:


The highest difficulty level was soloable.
Friendly fire did not exist.


This alone made the game an almost guaranteed decent experience at the very least. Even online, I have the option of being on my own. If someone goes AFK, that's cool. If someone idles at the town, that's cool too. If someone shoots right through me to kill the mobs, that's awesome. Naturally I exclude the different hacking methods that existed at the time - however it serves as a warning sign that the game should not only be designed to protect the community against itself, but also to prevent such cheats from existing in the first place. Again: the community will exploit everything it finds. It will find the smallest of holes and tear it open into a gaping cave. The community is a rabid, lunatic animal that wants to win and win in the most decisive and quickest possible way. The community is a conceptual personification of O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Brien_%281984%29). "Always, Winston, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." That's what any gaming community, as a whole, seeks. The instant they have a chance, they will seize it and hold on to it for dear life.

Then PSOv2 and further versions went and fucked it up by upping the difficulty and making most solo attempts a veritable chore. Instant result: community mood more easily sour, people yelling at people because they weren't lucky enough to have a good rare, people spamming TTF all the time to gain XP faster... A small change, and bam. The precarious balance has been ruined and you've turned what was once a rather nice community in relative terms, to just another one of those FPS-like gangs that yells more than it speaks. For the life of me I could not start any session in a "standard" mode. At most, I got one other person. Everyone else was doing a high-XP mission. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

And then, the community became blind to what was going on around it. It became convinced that the new way was somehow better and that anyone who didn't agree was a pansy. It's what makes it so fucking idiots label me a troll because I dare say that I preferred it when the game capped at level 100 and it was attainable at 80 hours. Most of them never got to know that a good bunch of people played despite being level 100. They improved on their equipment or invented screwball game modes on the fly to spice things up.

Most people don't understand that the tiniest modification to a game can turn everything about it upside-down. You can get an appreciation of it in PSO because the mods came in stages. V1, V2, Ep.I&II, Blue Burst. You can see how the addition of new stages, the upping of the level cap, the new weapons, the new missions and the new monsters factor into the gameplay experience. In most cases, the new things actually contributed to making the overall experience worse. The devs hadn't thought of the following question: "Suppose the player base goes apeshit over that feature. Can the community handle it, or will it destroy the gameplay?"

In most cases, funnily enough, the answer lies in a solo option, and the teammates you get are a cherry on the sundae. Player own drops are an excellent step towards this point since it makes item hogging and stealing impossible. By doing this, they've just cut off what was sometimes a major source of conflict among players. For trading, that's another story.

[darkante]

I hope that PSO2 doesn´t bring so much of that TTF/WB mentally.
Makes you feel like they are paying the game for you. :P

[RemiusTA]

PSO had something going at least somewhat unintentionally in its first version:


The highest difficulty level was soloable.
Friendly fire did not exist.


This alone made the game an almost guaranteed decent experience at the very least. Even online, I have the option of being on my own. If someone goes AFK, that's cool. If someone idles at the town, that's cool too. If someone shoots right through me to kill the mobs, that's awesome. Naturally I exclude the different hacking methods that existed at the time - however it serves as a warning sign that the game should not only be designed to protect the community against itself, but also to prevent such cheats from existing in the first place. Again: the community will exploit everything it finds. It will find the smallest of holes and tear it open into a gaping cave. The community is a rabid, lunatic animal that wants to win and win in the most decisive and quickest possible way. The community is a conceptual personification of O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Brien_%281984%29). "Always, Winston, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." That's what any gaming community, as a whole, seeks. The instant they have a chance, they will seize it and hold on to it for dear life.

Then PSOv2 and further versions went and fucked it up by upping the difficulty and making most solo attempts a veritable chore. Instant result: community mood more easily sour, people yelling at people because they weren't lucky enough to have a good rare, people spamming TTF all the time to gain XP faster... A small change, and bam. The precarious balance has been ruined and you've turned what was once a rather nice community in relative terms, to just another one of those FPS-like gangs that yells more than it speaks. For the life of me I could not start any session in a "standard" mode. At most, I got one other person. Everyone else was doing a high-XP mission. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

And then, the community became blind to what was going on around it. It became convinced that the new way was somehow better and that anyone who didn't agree was a pansy. It's what makes it so fucking idiots label me a troll because I dare say that I preferred it when the game capped at level 100 and it was attainable at 80 hours. Most of them never got to know that a good bunch of people played despite being level 100. They improved on their equipment or invented screwball game modes on the fly to spice things up.

Most people don't understand that the tiniest modification to a game can turn everything about it upside-down. You can get an appreciation of it in PSO because the mods came in stages. V1, V2, Ep.I&II, Blue Burst. You can see how the addition of new stages, the upping of the level cap, the new weapons, the new missions and the new monsters factor into the gameplay experience. In most cases, the new things actually contributed to making the overall experience worse. The devs hadn't thought of the following question: "Suppose the player base goes apeshit over that feature. Can the community handle it, or will it destroy the gameplay?"

In most cases, funnily enough, the answer lies in a solo option, and the teammates you get are a cherry on the sundae. Player own drops are an excellent step towards this point since it makes item hogging and stealing impossible. By doing this, they've just cut off what was sometimes a major source of conflict among players. For trading, that's another story.

This is what i'm talking about. You are making such a big deal out of absolutely nothing.

Im not commenting on the L4D part because I honestly do not care and it has nothing to do with PSO/PSU/PSO2. But the problems you guys are using against universal drops are just so amazingly exaggerated....once again, PSO is made to be some super elitist society where someone actually gave a fuck what weapon you had equipped.


Because in reality, nobody did. You join a room and you kill shit, thats all we ever did. If someone has a cool weapon you praise them, if someone had shitty weapons you probably lend them some, if someone killed everything in the room you ask them to slow down/calll them an asshole/leave the room.




Sometimes, I do wonder.

The PSU system was nearly perfect.
When I played, the distribution was always on Order, I always respected rare item calls, my inventory was never over 30/60 at the beginning of a mission, and it's never happened to me that I skipped a rare, and last but not least, in 11,000 hours clocked on PSU, I have been booted for rarz once, ONCE. Yes, my blacklist was full at one point, but it's never stopped me from enjoying the game one bit.

I really feel people want the game to make up for their own shortcomings. QTF. Im really trying my hardest to see where all these magical issues just started spawning from concerning PSU's drop system, out of ALL the things to complain about in that game. It's like all the sudden PSU had this terrible greifing community with a super terrible looting problem and everyone was a selfish douchebag. I could have sworn back at the PSU boards all we'd talk about is how much fun it is just doing random shit with the community in that game.


Unless you're one of those people who started going off like an actual woman when your female avatar started getting the nanoblast in the lobby.

[Enforcer MKV]

The game has to be made in such a way as to protect the community against itself.

If you respect a guideline or an unwritten rule, you are the exception. Not the normality. Anything that can be exploited in a game will be exploited and with a massive vengeance. You can simply not trust the community into being good; therefore you must prevent them - mechanically - from being bad.

Take Left 4 Dead. It's supposed to have a co-op and a Versus mode. The game was made that the protagonists depend on each other. This would have worked wonders in a perfect world. Now here's all the ways I could grief my own team:


Kill myself.
Unload my gun on my teammates.
Purposely shoot game elements that spawn a zombie horde.
Destroy gas cans and propane tanks on sight.
Leave the game as soon as a votekick is called against me, then come back - the game does not ban someone who leaves even if a VK was initiated against him and passed.
Spam the different vote calls, preventing others from calling votes.


If co-op entered into a high difficulty mode, the likelihood of the above happening raised dramatically. If you played versus mode, the likelihood of the above happening was always high. The community is a cesspool of the worst of humanity for the simple reason that the game allows me to ruin other people's experience with no consequence. I can do whatever I want. It's so bad that the victims leave the game. This is not supposed to happen. I shouldn't have to throw my game in order to get rid of someone. Think about it for a second. Think about a game session becoming so FUBAR because of griefers that it's better off to actually start over from the beginning. Since the tools to get rid of griefers are both few and flawed, there is basically nothing you can do. Most people then suggest to play in a locked game with friends. But good luck finding four or eight friends to play with at a given time.

PSO had something going at least somewhat unintentionally in its first version:


The highest difficulty level was soloable.
Friendly fire did not exist.


This alone made the game an almost guaranteed decent experience at the very least. Even online, I have the option of being on my own. If someone goes AFK, that's cool. If someone idles at the town, that's cool too. If someone shoots right through me to kill the mobs, that's awesome. Naturally I exclude the different hacking methods that existed at the time - however it serves as a warning sign that the game should not only be designed to protect the community against itself, but also to prevent such cheats from existing in the first place. Again: the community will exploit everything it finds. It will find the smallest of holes and tear it open into a gaping cave. The community is a rabid, lunatic animal that wants to win and win in the most decisive and quickest possible way. The community is a conceptual personification of O'Brien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Brien_%281984%29). "Always, Winston, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever." That's what any gaming community, as a whole, seeks. The instant they have a chance, they will seize it and hold on to it for dear life.

Then PSOv2 and further versions went and fucked it up by upping the difficulty and making most solo attempts a veritable chore. Instant result: community mood more easily sour, people yelling at people because they weren't lucky enough to have a good rare, people spamming TTF all the time to gain XP faster... A small change, and bam. The precarious balance has been ruined and you've turned what was once a rather nice community in relative terms, to just another one of those FPS-like gangs that yells more than it speaks. For the life of me I could not start any session in a "standard" mode. At most, I got one other person. Everyone else was doing a high-XP mission. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

And then, the community became blind to what was going on around it. It became convinced that the new way was somehow better and that anyone who didn't agree was a pansy. It's what makes it so fucking idiots label me a troll because I dare say that I preferred it when the game capped at level 100 and it was attainable at 80 hours. Most of them never got to know that a good bunch of people played despite being level 100. They improved on their equipment or invented screwball game modes on the fly to spice things up.

Most people don't understand that the tiniest modification to a game can turn everything about it upside-down. You can get an appreciation of it in PSO because the mods came in stages. V1, V2, Ep.I&II, Blue Burst. You can see how the addition of new stages, the upping of the level cap, the new weapons, the new missions and the new monsters factor into the gameplay experience. In most cases, the new things actually contributed to making the overall experience worse. The devs hadn't thought of the following question: "Suppose the player base goes apeshit over that feature. Can the community handle it, or will it destroy the gameplay?"

In most cases, funnily enough, the answer lies in a solo option, and the teammates you get are a cherry on the sundae. Player own drops are an excellent step towards this point since it makes item hogging and stealing impossible. By doing this, they've just cut off what was sometimes a major source of conflict among players. For trading, that's another story.

Uh.....what?

So....in short you're saying.....solo good?

Honestly, the rest of the stuff you're talking about I can't really comment on, since I haven't played PSO and it's many iterations. (first PS game was PSU) but.....all I'm saying is I'm a bit skeptical that it was really as bad as you're saying.

[Malachite]

Um... I play L4D and L4D2 pretty much every day and I've only run into those problems a handful of times since it's release in 2008.

Basically all that guy is doing is taking the problems that come with any online game ever and blowing them wayyy the fuck out of proportion.

Kinda sounds like he's just really anti-social ]:

[Kent]

While it certainly is true that there do need to be measures in place to protect a game from its community going sour, this is usually done by just improving the game mechanics. One big thing that went wrong with PSU, for example, was the fact that if anyone died and didn't have a Scape Doll, it would harm the entire team's mission rank. Due to the immense priority on making people want to get S-rank for every single mission lest they feel like they're wasting their time, this degraded into people being immediately blacklisted and booted immediately if they died (inb4 "It never happened to me and I played for x hours, so therefore it never happened to anyone").

The basic version, is that if you have mechanics in place that cause the community to be self-destructive, it's probably best to revise them. Now, it may not seem like the loot system, and it certainly wasn't a major issue for the most part, but it certainly is an antiquated system, and there's no harm in analyzing the benefits and detriments of a given system, no matter how old or new. It was still a flawed system, because of the nature of the loot-driven game and internet play: That is, it would cause people to bicker and fight over individual items, rush out from the fight toward the loot and stop contributing.

Sure, it wasn't much of an issue if you just played with friends - if it became an issue, that just meant your friends were dicks, so get new ones. However, in order to facilitate the ability to play with random people online, it made sense to give individual players their own drops, to ensure that nobody gets distracted, and nobody gets loot ninja'd from them, and all that jazz - at the same time, it makes people just go ahead and shut the hell up, complaining about the theory behind loot systems they don't understand (anyone remember how much debate and idiocy went around about whether In Order or Random were determined at the time of the drop, or at the time of pickup?).

In reality, the change to individual loot per player solves several problems, albeit somewhat-minor ones, with the overall goal of letting people focus more intently on the battle at hand, without having to worry about loot until afterward (which, can anyone sensibly argue that as a bad thing?). Though it's hard to ever call anything perfect, but one would be hard-pressed to find any serious (or even tangible) issues with this kind of a system, save for an ass-pull or two.

[RemiusTA]

In reality, the change to individual loot per player solves several problems, albeit somewhat-minor ones, with the overall goal of letting people focus more intently on the battle at hand, without having to worry about loot until afterward (which, can anyone sensibly argue that as a bad thing?). Though it's hard to ever call anything perfect, but one would be hard-pressed to find any serious (or even tangible) issues with this kind of a system, save for an ass-pull or two.

Well look. These are my issues with per-character drop systems.

1) First off, there's really nothing wrong with it. Let me just point that out from the jump.

2) There was nothing wrong with Universal drops. You people are overexaggerating and blowing EVERYTHING extremely out of proportion in terms of how PSU/PSO's drop system had an impact on the community. Long story short; it had no impact on the community. It did no wrong to anybody. The O N L Y difference between Per-character and universal drops is who you get to bitch and moan your ass off to when you dont get what you want. In universal drops, you bitch and complain to the players. In Per-Character, you bitch and complain to the game itself.


3) Which brings me to another point, which is there is absolutely nothing different between universal and non-universal, in the way it functions. If you want to damn near perfectly emulate Per-char. drops, simply set everything to Random.

4) And combining points 2 and 3, brings me to this; the system change is absolutely pointless. The amount of efficiency your party will gain from not having to worry about drops is SO MINUTE that it isn't even worth mentioning.


BUT since you guys love to "ass-pull", Lets assume that some of you actually give a fuck about drops affecting party efficiency (which i know none of you do, even if you say you do): Say a party is speed-running a stage while simultaneously searching for rares. If a 99* rare item drops, which team will lose more time picking it up? It's going to be the Per-Character drops. Why? Unless the player himself kills the enemy who drops it, he'll be the only one able to interact with it. So if someone across the room murders an enemy and drops a rare for Bob, he's going to have to go retrieve it himself. That's just a single drawback of having your party cutoff from you. Of course, if it were universal+random then there's no guarantee that it would go to you...but then again there would be absolutely no guarantee that it would drop under those conditions in the first place, so...null argument. Point for me. : 3


5) Which is unfortunate, because unlike going from Per-Character -> Universal drops, going from Universal -> Per-Character actually makes you lose aspects of social and technical gameplay that some people rather enjoy. Like feeling connected with your party. Or learning to share items with one another.


6) In my personal opinion, per-character drops help disconnect you from your team on a social level. You few people who are moaning about it obviously dont care, but i personally enjoy the courtesy in people who share their fraction of box drops and enemy drops. And i HONESTLY truthfully believe that Per-Character drops in something like Challenge Mode just completely defeats the entire purpose of the whole fucking idea. The premise of Challenge Mode is TEAMWORK. Basically letting every character play "solo with teammates" is...well, stupid.

It was one of the reasons Challenge Mode for PSP2 didn't really stick with me. Nothing felt scarce, and the only thing i had to ever rely on my partner for was dealing damage.

...okay i had to ask for a few things, but seriously, i dont get the point. I wont care either way, but the way you guys are defending it is just kind of funny.

[ShadowDragon28]

Im far more encouraged to go hunting with people I just teamed up with with PSO2's drop system, if it was like PSU's drop I would spend 98% of my time doing solo hunting again. While I don't mind playing solo missions, it's not quite as fun as doing team missions sometimes. PSU's drop system, well, I didn't much care for it. Sorry.

[Ceresa]

Im far more encouraged to go hunting with people I just teamed up with with PSO2's drop system, if it was like PSU's drop I would spend 98% of my time doing solo hunting again. While I don't mind playing solo missions, it's not quite as fun as doing team missions sometimes. PSU's drop system, well, I didn't much care for it. Sorry.

You can't be happy seeing someone else get a rare? What's fun about team missions for you then, everyone helping you get your rare?

[Fayorei]

Um... I play L4D and L4D2 pretty much every day and I've only run into those problems a handful of times since it's release in 2008.

Basically all that guy is doing is taking the problems that come with any online game ever and blowing them wayyy the fuck out of proportion.

Kinda sounds like he's just really anti-social ]:

Ehhh... for L4D, the Xbox community at least is like that. Seriously. Expert campaign runs are a nightmare on that community for the most part.:|

[Malachite]

lol the xbox community is like that in every aspect in every game. Not really a good example to go against, unless it's another 360 game.

[yoshiblue]

Reach is ok but alot of custom games are zombie base with the humans always being overpowered. Other then that, games are mostly fun and you can mute the people you don't like.



You can't be happy seeing someone else get a rare? What's fun about team missions for you then, everyone helping you get your rare?

This? Coming from a solo elitist? Heh heh...

[kyuuketsuki]

First of all, yes first post on this account but I'm in the process of trying to get access to my old account that I haven't used since the early days of PSU.

As for the subject, I simply can't understand the resistance to the individual drop system. Nothing is lost. If you really, truly, only ever had the greatest groups in the world and there was never any rare stealing, jockying for the best position to grab drops instead of focusing on fights, "dude I really need that rare that just dropped because...", people running ahead to insure they got first crack at drops, groups kicking you because you're the fourth wheel in their 3-man that they only tolerated until rare drops/enemies showed up, etc. and so on, great. You can still share drops and be amiable all you like. Individual drops does not somehow diminish your game play in any way, and to suggest is does is totally asinine.

However, I've been playing since PSOv1 on Dreamcast, and I have experienced plenty of the aforementioned. I'm not suggesting that PSO's player-base is/was nothing but a bunch of stupid jerks. I would definitely say the community in PSO/PSU was always better than any other online community I've had to deal with, and the drop system was never an issue when I was in a good group. But, there's no such thing as a community without its fair share of stupid jerks.

So, individual drops solves potential issues and has no real negatives. What's all the fuss about?

[yoshiblue]

Well in that case welcome back.

~Yoshiblue of FEZ's one man welcoming committee~

He (or she) was trying to say that we communicate less and feel less as a group if we all had our separate share of the loot. Its a double edge sword for PSO's style of the drop system however. I vote for PSZ's drop system over PSO's. Lol one time I brought this up with some people in pso and they said that PSZ's system was for babys.

[Fayorei]

lol the xbox community is like that in every aspect in every game. Not really a good example to go against, unless it's another 360 game.

My sentiments exactly.:P I haven't gotten around to playing my L4D2 steam more, but I imagine it can't get any worse than the Xbox 360 comm for that game. The worst feeling I've had on that game was actually playing with a WoW raider buddy, and them messing up and TKing on purpose for a half hour.

Even then, I do agree that the PSU loot system was good enough. Exp tagging? Awesome! Loot? Eh, either way. Though I do absolutely get the feeling people are having that with everyone getting their own drops it feels less... unified.

I'm one of those people that gives away rares and such anyways. I remember in early PSU I got a rare crafting recipe of some sort and I just gave it away to a good friend anyhow. I mean, I think people just tend to value the stuff more than me a lot which is just fine, and I figure more will drop eventually.:)

[RemiusTA]

next sega will release an update that allows you to hide your damage numbers too so nobody can bitch about you sucking anymore


then the game will be PERFECT amirite

[ShadowDragon28]

The fun of playing in a team is playing team missions that actually require team work, such as PSO's Challenge Mode or West Tower and East Tower, also the social aspects of being in a team can add to the enjoyment of being in team.

[Tetsaru]

Sometimes, I do wonder.

The PSU system was nearly perfect.
When I played, the distribution was always on Order, I always respected rare item calls, my inventory was never over 30/60 at the beginning of a mission, and it's never happened to me that I skipped a rare, and last but not least, in 11,000 hours clocked on PSU, I have been booted for rarz once, ONCE. Yes, my blacklist was full at one point, but it's never stopped me from enjoying the game one bit.

I really feel people want the game to make up for their own shortcomings.

"Nearly perfect" is a matter of opinion, really. And I'm not sure what you're insinuating by the whole "shortcomings" thing, but most of the examples I listed seemed to happen quite often for me and a lot of other people, save for maybe the booting. Maybe it's because I played with random people a lot, maybe it's because I tend to pick up everything (including the "useless" stuff) just so I could hoard or NPC-sell it, maybe it's because a lot of the called rares were things I was after too... probably a combination of all that, but I highly doubt I was the only one. I always saw people arguing about Random vs. Set in Order; personally, I prefer Random, so I guess that's one area where our preferences differ. If I was partying up with friends though, I didn't have any of those problems, save for the whole picking up everything deal (things like Kerselines shouldn't even be rares anyway, imo), and even then, they usually wouldn't mind dropping them for me, or we'd just put common drops on Finder. And being a gunner most of the time, I'd have my 6 palette weapons, one or two armors and 4 units, and then my traps and consumables, which also usually was around 30 items, maybe slightly more. Inventory space was rarely an issue for me, but I seemed to encounter a lot of mostly melee-users who would carry tons of weapon/armor types and elements for very situational uses that they didn't really need, considering the easy difficulty of the game... but I guess that's one disadvantage melee people had - they couldn't simply "equip" a different element like gunners and techers could. I mean really, it doesn't take that long to warp back to your room, go to your PM, swap out your equipment, and warp back, but I guess some people didn't understand the concept of having extra storage space...

Making drops instanced for each player just eliminates a lot of that unnecessary bickering and conflict. Each player can manage their own inventory and pick up what they want without anyone else complaining, and that is a very welcome change for me. And I'd really be surprised if players couldn't trade items, either through an exchange option or simply dropping them and picking them back up.

[yoshiblue]

next sega will release an update that allows you to hide your damage numbers too so nobody can bitch about you sucking anymore


then the game will be PERFECT amirite

HEY!!! THAT GUY ISN"T KILLING FAST ENOUGH!!!

[ShadowDragon28]

Making drops instanced for each player just eliminates a lot of that unnecessary bickering and conflict. Each player can manage their own inventory and pick up what they want without anyone else complaining, and that is a very welcome change for me. And I'd really be surprised if players couldn't trade items, either through an exchange option or simply dropping them and picking them back up.


I agree with this 100%...

[RemiusTA]

I still totally think they should remove the ability to see other players' damage numbers. Then people can finally focus on killing the enemy, and not have to worry about being inefficient or getting kicked. When i played PSO and PSU, so many times i got called a noob and kicked for not doing enough damage. I really wish it would stop happening, but i just couldnt get any good weapons! (people kept fucking stealing them, you know. Terrible community.)


We should also remove trading, so all those terrible scams would stop. There's no telling how many times i got scammed in PSO and PSU. But did i ever get scammed in PSP2..? HELL NO! That's because they finally found the solution!


It's flawless! No damage numbers, no trading, instanced drops. The community will be perfect, the drops will be perfect, and we wont have to socialize with ANYBODY, especially those douchebag elitists!

[kyuuketsuki]

Well in that case welcome back.Thanks! ^_^


He (or she) was trying to say that we communicate less and feel less as a group if we all had our separate share of the loot.I don't see it. If something you've been looking for drops you can just say "Hey, such and such thing I've been looking for forever just dropped for me!" and all your teammates can say "Yay!" and "Congrats!" Preferably with some snazzy cut-ins for added affect. I don't see how anything was diminished as compared to if all your amiable teammates had seen it drop. On the other hand, if you're in a PUG and you've found that your teammates aren't so amiable, you get to keep it to yourself rather than cursing for not positioning yourself properly to pick it up first or getting frustrated at seeing something you really wanted go to a stranger (if you don't get it), or dealing with abuse/begging/instant "I'll-give-you-a-zillion-meseta-and-blah-blah-items for that!" if you do get it.

Further, if it's not something you really wanted, you can still say "Hey, such and such just dropped, anyone interested in it?" And, of course, the same holds true when a rare drops for any of your amiable teammates.


Lol one time I brought this up with some people in pso and they said that PSZ's system was for babys.Some people have trouble understanding that they're playing a game and that the Internet-Tough-Guy routine is truly pathetic.


next sega will release an update that allows you to hide your damage numbers too so nobody can bitch about you sucking anymoreNot even remotely the same. Plus, I can tell when you're sucking without having to see your damage numbers anyway. ;)

[Alnet]

Seeing as the last few new Phantasy Star games had this as their looting options, and people didn't spontaneously combust at their PSPs and NDSs, I don't think it's that huge of a problem.

Though if you are so adamantly opposed to this system being used for PSO2, then I would suggest learning Japanese and sending as many angry and passionate letters you can to Sega of Japan's headquarters before the game makes its launch. Or if you don't think anyone there would care about your stagnant point of view, or you think it might be too much work, boycott the game until your demands are met.

Because y'know, other people being able to see what items you picked up is a huge deal and other people just aren't taking it seriously enough.

[Jinketsu]

"Jinketsu recieves a monomate."
"Alnet recieves an internet cookie."

Son of a bitch!

[Tetsaru]

As long as they're doing their role and playing their job properly, personally I could care less about how much damage someone is doing. There are other tactics to defeating enemies: kiting, damage over time (like PSU's poison, virus, and burn effects), stun-locking or debuffing, etc. Mindlessly zerg-rushing to kill everything in a few hits was one of the things that eventually drove me away from PSU - it just got too easy, and there was little to no strategy or teamwork involved. All it boiled down to was "spam this overpowered auto-critting PA to win." BOR-ING. Of course, PSU's enemies in general were just poorly designed compared to the stuff in PSO... :rolleyes:

[moorebounce]

I will be happy if we could get drops according to section ID(s), race and sex and have the items drop for each player in PSZ. I know in PSU you got all the same crap no matter what you were which sucked.

[Fayorei]

Seeing as the last few new Phantasy Star games had this as their looting options, and people didn't spontaneously combust at their PSPs and NDSs, I don't think it's that huge of a problem.

Though if you are so adamantly opposed to this system being used for PSO2, then I would suggest learning Japanese and sending as many angry and passionate letters you can to Sega of Japan's headquarters before the game makes its launch. Or if you don't think anyone there would care about your stagnant point of view, or you think it might be too much work, boycott the game until your demands are met.

Because y'know, other people being able to see what items you picked up is a huge deal and other people just aren't taking it seriously enough.

I think I laughed out loud at the last part of this. Seriously, it isn't worth getting knickers in a twist over this. It isn't going to make rares any more common to drop really, and as you said the PSP/PS0 users didn't die over it.:P It probably should've been obvious this would happen since the same team is developing PSO2 anyways.

And I've always thought of team efforts being about beating challenge modes, and keeping your team alive. There's still plenty to work together on IMO.

[Enforcer MKV]

You can't be happy seeing someone else get a rare? What's fun about team missions for you then, everyone helping you get your rare?

I think he's more worried about people ditching in the middle of a fight to go grab stuff. If everyone has their own drops, people don't need to worry about losing items. Therefore, no need to ditch. (unless said person is just a jerk.)


lol the xbox community is like that in every aspect in every game. Not really a good example to go against, unless it's another 360 game.

Why the hate? I don't understand why a lot of people here seem to hate the consoles so much.

[moorebounce]

I think he's more worried about people ditching in the middle of a fight to go grab stuff. If everyone has their own drops, people don't need to worry about losing items. Therefore, no need to ditch. (unless said person is just a jerk.)



Why the hate? I don't understand why a lot of people here seem to hate the consoles so much.

You don't tend to get a lot of people jumping ship after getting a rare but it does happen on occassion. Which sucks depending on if you needed the help to get through a level or map.

Also I rather not have someone running for drops in the middle of a battle. I tend to stay away from people who do that but if by having stuff drop at the end of a battle/level like in PSZ it would be great.

As far as consoles are concerned I know my hate is toward M$. I don't want to pay a yearly fee and see ads all over the place. The ads should be making XBL free. Also having to pay M$ and Sega sucks too. For me it has to be one or the other and not both. I choose PC and I only have to pay Sega.

[Anon_Fire]

RemiusTA, it sounds to me that you're against PSP2i's drop system being used in PSO2.

[StriderTuna]

I did like the way PSZ handled drops, both the "own drop" system and how there was a massive box appearing at the end of every 'battle'.

I also don't like "power gaming", as it stifles creativity and fun. It may be one thing to want to be the absolute best, but it's another to try forcing that attitude on someone else.

[RemiusTA]

RemiusTA, it sounds to me that you're against PSP2i's drop system being used in PSO2.



What are you talking about, it's clearly the superior method of item drops. It's high time we purged the servers of all those damn looters and elitists!!!!



Not even remotely the same. Plus, I can tell when you're sucking without having to see your damage numbers anyway.It has nothing to do with their relation to each other. It's having to do with how retarded the arguments are against it. Besides, not seeing other people's damage numbers wont hinder you in the slightest.

And no, you really can not tell that someone sucks without seeing numbers. But just in case, do we need to make your weapons invisible too?

[kyuuketsuki]

It has nothing to do with their relation to each other. It's having to do with how retarded the arguments are against it.Uh... if you say so. You still haven't shown any real negatives to personal drops, or even demonstrated how it affects you and your 100% awesome groups that never had any issues with previous loot systems.
Besides, not seeing other people's damage numbers wont hinder you in the slightest. You're right, and if they make it so you don't see other party members' damage numbers (or added the option to hide yours), I wouldn't complain at all. It doesn't affect me at all, has no real negatives, and if a good portion of the community would be happy for it, then great.

And no, you really can not tell that someone sucks without seeing numbers.Sure I can. Are the enemies dying relatively quickly and you're not? You're doing well. Are the enemies taking a long time to die and/or you keep dying? You're not doing well.
But just in case, do we need to make your weapons invisible too?I don't see how bringing up ridiculous notions that nobody has ever asked for and pretending there's some parallel between it and individual drops helps your argument.
Because y'know, other people being able to see what items you picked up is a huge deal and other people just aren't taking it seriously enough.Sorry Allnet, I missed that you won the thread.

[KodiaX987]

What are you talking about, it's clearly the superior method of item drops. It's high time we purged the servers of all those damn looters and elitists!!!!

Attaboy. :)


Apologies for spilling that bucket of oil slick on your slippery slope a while ago. I hadn't realized you already had a biblical flood of it on your hands.

[Sord]

I could have sworn back at the PSU boards all we'd talk about is how much fun it is just doing random shit with the community in that game.

I have to wonder what PSU board you were going to. At one point PSU general was such a clusterfuck of squabbles (rather similar to PSO2s lame arguments at times) that people would make fun of it for it. People would also start a rants topic about the PSU Gen community every once in awhile. Naturally, it's died down overtime, as the game has fallen out of favor.

I'll admit that item looting/griefing did not seem as widespread as some people seem to be remembering. However, I do remember at times that it did happen, even if not that frequently. Both for PSO and PSU. This drop system just changes it from "occasionally" happening to "never gonna happen at all," and I can't see any way that's a bad thing.

I personally don't think it's going to do much for "splitting" the team. As you said though, that's more of an opinion type deal, so we'll just have to wait and see how that does. Hadn't thought about making damage numbers disappear in terms of community presentation, honestly I just want them off because having 20 numbers going off on some enemy all at once is annoying to me.

[Fayorei]

I did like the way PSZ handled drops, both the "own drop" system and how there was a massive box appearing at the end of every 'battle'.

I also don't like "power gaming", as it stifles creativity and fun. It may be one thing to want to be the absolute best, but it's another to try forcing that attitude on someone else.

Wish I could just thumbs up this post, heh. I definitely agree. It's about havin' fun at the end of the day.

[Akaimizu]

PSZ's nice box at the end was a clever way to avoid the pitfalls of Monster drops in the PSZ engine. That is, PSZ was exclusive in which mobs could fly over terrain that was "out of bounds" for the player. So I guess it eliminates having to deal with positioning monster drops so they don't end up in unreachable places.

[RemiusTA]

Uh... if you say so. You still haven't shown any real negatives to personal drops, or even demonstrated how it affects you and your 100% awesome groups that never had any issues with previous loot systems.

Damn straight my 100% awesome groups never encountered any problems. And if we did, i've forgotten about them because of how insignificant of a problem it is. And many times i've written negatives to the system. If you choose to ignore them, then by all means keep up the good work.

And by the way, the whole reason we're having this discussion is because none of YOU have shown any real negatives to universal drops. Well, aside from a bunch of slippery slope garbage.

Oh wait-



Apologies for spilling that bucket of oil slick on your slippery slope a while ago. I hadn't realized you already had a biblical flood of it on your hands. HAHAHA, how ironic to hear that term used against me in this thread. Holy shit. You guys are absolutely shameless, aren't you.

Attaboy indeed. Thanks for that.



You're right, and if they make it so you don't see other party members' damage numbers (or added the option to hide yours), I wouldn't complain at all. It doesn't affect me at all, has no real negatives, and if a good portion of the community would be happy for it, then great.

Well go you, looking out for the greater good! Well done.



I don't see how bringing up ridiculous notions that nobody has ever asked for and pretending there's some parallel between it and individual drops helps your argument.

It has nothing to do with their relation to each other. It's having to do with how retarded the arguments are against it. <--- This is your parallel. Besides, not seeing other people's damage numbers wont hinder you in the slightest. Bolded for your convenience.






I personally don't think it's going to do much for "splitting" the team. As you said though, that's more of an opinion type deal, so we'll just have to wait and see how that does.I absolutely, positively agree. It is an opinion. I already stated plenty of times over that there technically is nothing wrong with per-character drops, unless your preference says otherwise, or in other pretty rare instances. The kicker is that this "looting" issue people keep going on about was also in "rare instances" because the MAJORITY of PSU's population played with Rare Drops on "Random". You couldn't loot. Boss/Rare spawn kicking is the only argument that can really be formed against it, but there are far easier ways to deal with that than alienating all the drops on the map.


I actually wonder, if there was a poll on how many people, through hundreds to thousands of hours of playing, had any of these issues you guys are going on about, what it would look like. If it was winning or even equal, then i really would have nothing to say about this.

[NoiseHERO]

Guys stop using sarcasm, I didn't read volume 1 of this thread yet so it's confusing.

[kyuuketsuki]

Well, aside from a bunch of slippery slope garbage.Well I guess if we're going to make stuff up this is kind of a pointless, uh, discussion. No slippery slope arguments were presented by myself or any other posters arguing against you that I can recall (though the thread has gotten lengthy so perhaps I missed one). It's simply some people saying they've had some bad experiences, and you repeatedly exclaiming that everything was cool for you so everyone else is lying or at least hugely exaggerating. I dunno about others, but I pretty specifically said I didn't encounter it all the time or even often. But these things have happened, they were annoying/aggravating/frustrating, and individual drops eliminates the potential for them.

Bolded for your convenience.So... repeatedly stating that you think everyone else is lying out their asses isn't a retarded argument?

Oh wait. You brought up that whole "oh not being able to see what drops for my teammates with my very own eyes all the time somehow ruins my team experience". Yeah, that's just... I don't even know? I already addressed this (as much as such a weird and unbelievable line of reasoning can be addressed) with the whole "oh such and such dropped for me!" "yay go you" and "oh such and such dropped anyone want it?" mock exchange thing I did. Oh hey look, I can even argue it contributes to team cooperativeness and togetherness or whatever it is you were going on about.

but there are far easier ways to deal with that than alienating all the drops on the map.... "Alienating" all the drops on the map? Well we sure don't want to hurt the poor drops' feelings with not being able to be seen by everyone at once.

I actually wonder, if there was a poll on how many people, through hundreds to thousands of hours of playing, had any of these issues you guys are going on about, what it would look like. If it was winning or even equal, then i really would have nothing to say about this.Besides the fact that polls are inherently crap for proving anything, unless they're very rigorously done by a disinterested third party (and even then they're suspect), I guess I could say: If they did a poll asking the PSO community if they feel individual drops hurts their gameplay experience at all, and your side was winning or even equal then I'd have nothing to say about this.

[Hrith]

[...]I know exactly what you mean, Shuri, I have been here since v1 as well, but I still disagree. I have seen shit happen, a lot. But it's so easily avoided, I'm not sure I should be considered the exception, and people who care about nothing but themselves should be the norm.

The game should not protect the community against itself, the community should be less stupid. Overprotective mentalities is what makes human beings worse and worse.
'You're going to hurt yourself, let us protect you.'
What? If someone is too stupid to realise drinking from a phial labelled 'lethal poison', should we protect them?

We should strive to become better by ourselves. We do not need to be protected from ourselves. We simply cannot improve within such strict bounds.

[RemiusTA]

Well I guess if we're going to make stuff up this is kind of a pointless, uh, discussion. No slippery slope arguments were presented by myself or any other posters arguing against you that I can recall (though the thread has gotten lengthy so perhaps I missed one). It's simply some people saying they've had some bad experiences, and you repeatedly exclaiming that everything was cool for you so everyone else is lying or at least hugely exaggerating. I dunno about others, but I pretty specifically said I didn't encounter it all the time or even often. But these things have happened, they were annoying/aggravating/frustrating, and individual drops eliminates the potential for them.
So... repeatedly stating that you think everyone else is lying out their asses isn't a retarded argument?

This thread is chocked full of them, bro. I dont understand how you can't see that, at least discussing this with me from a non-biased perspective.

I don't argue to win all the time. Not necessarily. I like to be fair and unbiased. I dont say "it doesn't happen ever" because it really doesn't happen ever, i say that because...well, it rarely actually happens in my (and plenty of friends') personal experiences. I've never, EVER had "looting" or "douchebag teammates" be a serious topic of discussion in-game with PSO. It just wasn't that serious. For a few unlucky people i dont deny they had their share of bad issues, but what bothers 5% of the population i dont think really warrants such a change.



Oh wait. You brought up that whole "oh not being able to see what drops for my teammates with my very own eyes all the time somehow ruins my team experience". Yeah, that's just... I don't even know? I already addressed this (as much as such a weird and unbelievable line of reasoning can be addressed) with the whole "oh such and such dropped for me!" "yay go you" and "oh such and such dropped anyone want it?" mock exchange thing I did. Oh hey look, I can even argue it contributes to team cooperativeness and togetherness or whatever it is you were going on about.Yeah, i already went over that too. That's nice and all. In my personal opinion, i rather it the other way.




... "Alienating" all the drops on the map? Well we sure don't want to hurt the poor drops' feelings with not being able to be seen by everyone at once.This, right here, could be classified as slippery slope, you know. There's probably a fallacy more specific for the situation, but i've already passed English 1102 and i dont really care to go back. So whatever.


Besides the fact that polls are inherently crap for proving anything, unless they're very rigorously done by a disinterested third party (and even then they're suspect), I guess I could say: If they did a poll asking the PSO community if they feel individual drops hurts their gameplay experience at all, and your side was winning or even equal then I'd have nothing to say about this.
This topic isn't very large, so i think it's kind of apparent that nobody really gives a shit either way in the long run.





The game should not protect the community against itself, the community should be less stupid. Overprotective mentalities is what makes human beings worse and worse.
'You're going to hurt yourself, let us protect you.'
What? If someone is too stupid to realise drinking from a phial labelled 'lethal poison', should we protect them?

We should strive to become better by ourselves. We do not need to be protected from ourselves. We simply cannot improve within such strict bounds.This is somewhat along the lines of what im saying. Seriously, it may have been an issue for a few people, but just because an issue comes with very annoying problems doesn't mean you should avoid it for the sake of the few people unable to cope with it. Don't slow your convoy to the speed of the slowest man. It only holds you back. Companies with that kind of childish mentality? They end up like Nintendo. If you pay attention to that kind of thing, do you notice how they've been completely neglecting modern system components for almost 3 generations now? Network play, Harddrive storage, decently powerful hardware, all of these things are holding them back. They got lucky and it worked with the Wii, but it's apparent now (with the 3DS and Wii-U issues that are undoubtedly going to pop up) that it's just not going to work anymore. The 3DS is coming real close to failure status.

[NoiseHERO]

You know what?

It already is what it is.

and since Sakai's been doing it for like the past 4 games, It'll probably stay that way.

STOP MAKING LITTLE THINGS COMPLICATED! sdfsdgsgskdjgfg

YOU ALL TALK TOO MUCH!

[RemiusTA]

Hey. Hey. HEY.


...okay sure, why not. I honestly don't care about this anymore. It's not even interesting to talk about.

[kyuuketsuki]

You know what?

It already is what it is.

and since Sakai's been doing it for like the past 4 games, It'll probably stay that way.

STOP MAKING LITTLE THINGS COMPLICATED! sdfsdgsgskdjgfg

YOU ALL TALK TOO MUCH!
So what you're saying is, I win, right? 8-)

Okay okay, you're right. Both sides have made their points, this isn't going anywhere, and the matter is already decided as far as the game is concerned.

[KodiaX987]

I know exactly what you mean, Shuri, I have been here since v1 as well, but I still disagree. I have seen shit happen, a lot. But it's so easily avoided, I'm not sure I should be considered the exception, and people who care about nothing but themselves should be the norm.

The game should not protect the community against itself, the community should be less stupid. Overprotective mentalities is what makes human beings worse and worse.
'You're going to hurt yourself, let us protect you.'
What? If someone is too stupid to realise drinking from a phial labelled 'lethal poison', should we protect them?

We should strive to become better by ourselves. We do not need to be protected from ourselves. We simply cannot improve within such strict bounds.

I do not seek to protect a human being against his own self. I wish to protect a group of people from having their experience contaminated by the action of a few members of that group.

If doing something is easy to do, has large repercussions on the group and has negligible consequences, then it's a something that needs to be blocked or otherwise prevented.

If doing said something is more trouble than it's worth, then chances are we can leave it alone.

This is why the poison analogy cannot be applied here, as it refers to a person causing harm to himself and no one else.

It's not an attempt to babysit the users or the community either - nonetheless when there is an obvious and easy way to disturb shit, then common sense calls for the modification of that way to prevent it or diminish its repercussions via modifying the game mechanics.

This is oftentimes far easier to accomplish than attempting to render a community less stupid.

One thing I don't want to see happening is the 'play with friends' mentality no longer becoming a convenience but a requirement. If you play with friends when they happen to be online, that's great. If you do not play the game because your friends are not online, then it hints to the possibility that playing with randoms is more often a negative experience than a positive one. It should not be that way. Ideally, a random should be able to damage his team as much as a mosquito and nothing more. It should not be within the power of one single person to greatly disturb his teammates, as this leads to an experience where it feels like everyone's got a gun pointed at one another's head and you know they will not hesitate to pull the trigger if things don't go their way.

Or, in Monopoly terms: they flip the board.

I do not believe the community should have to alter its behavior in order to avoid problems, and especially larger-scaled problems such as refusal of teamwork, item stealing and other things common to online play. Especially in RPGs where oftentimes people slave for hours either to buy their next sword or attempt to find this or that ultra-rare. I think people as a whole have grown so used to the mechanics we know of that they do not want any change to it, feeling that it would break the genre's core elements or that it would get them out off their comfort zone. They call it "it's fine at it is." I call it "The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world it did not exist."

[amtalx]

^QFMFT.^

[yoshiblue]

Humans are naturally weak to begin with. Therefore we naturally band together to become stronger.

I'm done trying to sound smart now.

[Enforcer MKV]

Humans are naturally weak to begin with. Therefore we naturally band together to become stronger.

I'm done trying to sound smart now.

*sips tea before adjusting monocle.*

....Indeed.

[RemiusTA]

I do not seek to protect a human being against his own self. I wish to protect a group of people from having their experience contaminated by the action of a few members of that group.


Your post is nice and all, but the problem with all this is this right here.

It's not that big a deal. No more a deal than the chat filter that's used to stop people from saying "Fuck" in the lobbies. And people hate that, too. Are we to believe that if people are allowed to say "Fuck" and "Shit" during gameplay that the community will fall apart? Of course not. Thats what Blacklists and GMs are for. Make an example out of people, and they stop doing stupid shit. (especially in a P2P game.) And people find ways around it anyway.

There will be no significant impact to this community by making drops per-character. A counter argument would be that the community is (technically, no matter how minute) worse WITH universal drops. But the flaw with that is that the "worse" of it is damn near negligible.


And by my logic....a player who's douchbag enough to boss-boot or rare-boot PROBABLY doesn't give a fuck about you anyway. If he wants to grief on the game, he can do it even if the drops are per-character and he has no reason to. MOST PLAYERS have the common courtesy to not do something like that. This is probably why i dont have an issue with it. It really doesn't solve anything. All the changes are just too small for me to care, and since i prefer the current system over the new one, i dont see a real reason for the change.




Most importantly, that reason above is also the reason why so many people are either "It never really happened to me" or "IT HAPPENED AND IT WAS SO ANNOYING". The difference between those two accusations leads me to believe that the issue is negligible. The ones who it did happen to usually dont give it much thought because it was rare. The ones who did it and HATE IT are more likely to exaggerate the experience because it's annoying to them. Like you're doing. No offense.




Humans are naturally weak to begin with. Therefore we naturally band together to become stronger.


Here here.

[Enforcer MKV]

I say, you're still debating this?

.....I see.

[Mike]

Each player gets their own drops apparently.