Nvidia Physx - Confirmed

[adam-james]

Look what's lurking amongst the alpha client files - physxcudart_20.dll

This is great news!

[Selphea]

Wtf! Why not an open platform like OpenCL? >:|

[adam-james]

Nope! But I think it's good news, at least it's a step forward and we won't be AS sick of the same animations over and over.

[Keilyn]

This means that the demand to play the game will be higher and that there is a limitation in programming too. Chances are its attributed to Jump Physics and Jump Attacks. This means to have greater optimization itself....

A player will have to buy a Direct X 11 video card with the latest in CUDA technologies and even go Nvidia for Optimization.

[yoshiblue]

So their catering to both causal PCs and hardcore PCs?

[Selphea]

gg Intel integrated/ATI users u_u;;

[Mag-X]

There's no way that it'll be mandatory to be able to play the game. Because PhysX is proprietary to Nvidia, it only ever gets used for extra stuff. The games look better with it turned on, but will play just fine without it.

[BioWarrior]

I'm on ATI and I ain't even mad. My radeon treats me better than my McLeod card ever did, but it's nice to see sega supporting more options.

[Canard de Bain]

Horrible news. OpenCL or bust. Or maybe Bullet.

[Zaix]

I'm just happy there is a real physics engine this time, even if its not the greatest one ever. In my opinion PhysX is better than nothing.

[Ark22]

Lol Like I said, my laptop will wreck this game.

[Zyrusticae]

You realize PhysX can be run on the CPU like every other physics engine, right?

...Right?

You do also realize they're not going to be using it for extensive effects, but rather for cloth and hair simulation, right?

You do realize how little impact that has on performance? Do you?

DO YOU!?

[Zaix]

I do. I'm just stating I'd prefer any physics engine over none. I'm not even sure what the issue is with PhysX exactly.

[Zyrusticae]

The issue with PhysX is that it was initially used, after the acquisition by Nvidia, to provide an incentive for people to buy Nvidia cards since the physics engine could be accelerated through the GPU.

This, of course, led people to believe that PhysX could only be run through Nvidia cards, but this is patently untrue. It can be run on the CPU like any other physics engine; the performance impact can be considerable in games that have heavy effects usage like Batman: Arkham Asylum, or Mirror's Edge, but as the physics in use have no gameplay impact they are completely optional, and the hair and cloth simulation is very low-cost relative to those effects.

I suspect PhysX will be in use for some basic physics modeling when it comes to world objects, but nothing on the scale of the tech demos for it.

Also, DX11 has absolutely fuck-all to do with PhysX. Please don't spread ridiculous misinformation, kthx.

[Ark22]

Dood, all that matters is that people with old PC's can run this game. Sega did say they were making the game PC friendly.

[Zaix]

So the issue with PhysX is noobs? funny problem to have.


Dood, all that matters is that people with old PC's can run this game. Sega did say they were making the game PC friendly.

That may be true but SEGA is also designing with the higher end crowd in mind.

[Shinji Kazuya]

Typical.

[yoshiblue]

Should we expect two versions of PSO2 to be launched then?

[Zaix]

Should we expect two versions of PSO2 to be launched then?

Why would there be 2?

[yoshiblue]

in case the cow hits the fan and has problems supporting high and/or low end PCs. In case a patch comes out to fix something and ends up messing with either one. Call it paranoia if you wish.

[Mag-X]

You realize PhysX can be run on the CPU like every other physics engine, right?

...Right?
DO YOU!?

Have you ever run it on the CPU? It runs like crap. Switching to running PhysX on CPU even brings my system to its knees if there are enough effects going on to warrant its use.


Should we expect two versions of PSO2 to be launched then?

No. PhysX will just be an option that you can turn on or off.

[yoshiblue]

Alrighty then

[Zyrusticae]

Have you ever run it on the CPU? It runs like crap. Switching to running PhysX on CPU even brings my system to its knees if there are enough effects going on to warrant its use.
Yes, I already said that.

This obviously doesn't apply to PSO2 because they are using it almost exclusively for cloth and hair simulation.

If there ARE more extensive effects, they will be completely optional and/or possibly require a high-end Nvidia card.

[Noel Vermillion]

Can someone please explain what Phsyxyxyxyysx is? or should I just go back to the kitchen .__.

[Zaix]

In short its a pyshics engine created by a NVidia owned company. Physics engines take care of various objects physics, be it collisions, shattering, blowing in the wind, tearing and so on.

[yoshiblue]

Cool, all I need is a shirt less suit and I can make my dood a Fabio with the hair flowing in the wind. Lulz
If someone asked sooner I would have said it. Couldn't have said it any better though.

[Vashyron]

A visual comparison of with and without is this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0xRJt8rcmY

But I really doubt PSO2 will use it to that point, I'm only seeing it being done for things such as hair/clothing jumping.

[yoshiblue]

Thanks for the vid. Other then hair, articles of clothing, and background fabrics for the lobbys; I don't think PSO2 needs it.

[Noel Vermillion]

Ah yes I understand now ty :] wasn't PSU meant to have this? I think I remember something.

[Vashyron]

Nah, PSU actually had no physics at all.

Don't remember hearing anything about it being planned either.

[yoshiblue]

Unless you call the stiff hair rising then slowly yet stiffly falling back down physics.

[Vashyron]

That was animated for the false impression of physics. :wacko:

[yoshiblue]

Well played then. I wonder if someone will pull a grays mod for it. For some reason I want to literally see someone flailing their arms to attack something.

[BIG OLAF]

I have no idea what Nvidia Physx is, what it means for the game, or what kinds of computer I'll need to run it on. Is it bad news, good news, or what..?

[yoshiblue]

Zaix and Vash explained and presented what it is and does on page 3.

Edit: I got to lay off on the epic rapid firing of my posting.

[BIG OLAF]

Yeah, I saw, but...what does it mean? I don't get it. Does this mean I'll need a DEMONBEAST9001 DELUXE SUPER-ASS FUCKNUTZ EDITION computer to play PSO2? That's what I'm asking.

[yoshiblue]

Its optional and is to cater to the high end PC users(don't quote me on the high end part).

[Mag-X]

Yeah, I saw, but...what does it mean? I don't get it. Does this mean I'll need a DEMONBEAST9001 DELUXE SUPER-ASS FUCKNUTZ EDITION computer to play PSO2? That's what I'm asking.

If you want to use it, you'll need an Nvidia 8000 series card or newer.

[Arkios]

It's an extra feature that you can turn on/off. It's proprietary to Nvidia cards, specifically the GeForce line of cards.

It will not prevent you from running the game. It merely allows the GPU to handle some of the physics processes, rather than the CPU. (Which allows for some extra visual effects in some cases)

tl;dr: Don't worry about it. If you don't know what it is or how it works, it won't affect you.

Extra note: There is a patch available that allows you to run PhysX on an ATi card, but there is a lot to it and it can be a royal pain in the butt.

[Vashyron]

If you want to use it, you'll need an Nvidia 8000 series card or new.



It can run off the CPU too though.

[BIG OLAF]

It's an extra feature that you can turn on/off. It's proprietary to Nvidia cards, specifically the GeForce line of cards.

It will not prevent you from running the game. It merely allows the GPU to handle some of the physics processes, rather than the CPU. (Which allows for some extra visual effects in some cases)

tl;dr: Don't worry about it. If you don't know what it is or how it works, it won't affect you.

Extra note: There is a patch available that allows you to run PhysX on an ATi card, but there is a lot to it and it can be a royal pain in the butt.

So it's basically just for extra visuals? I don't give a shit about that.

Ok, thanks. I was essentially just worried that this meant I would need like a $3000 computer to play the game, since computer features with fancy names usually mean your wallet's about to feel sad (and mine already feels sad since it's been empty for two years).

[Christmas]

Wonderful, means that my character's twintails will be able to move with such detail!

[Arkios]

So it's basically just for extra visuals? I don't give a shit about that.

Ok, thanks. I was essentially just worried that this meant I would need like a $3000 computer to play the game, since computer features with fancy names usually mean your wallet's about to feel sad (and mine already feels sad since it's been empty for two years).

Yeah you can ignore it.

You can actually get a pretty decent gaming PC for relatively cheap, but it requires a lot of knowledge and can be extremely overwhelming if you're not a big PC person.


It can run off the CPU too though.

It always does. The "PhysX" option is actually "PhysX Acceleration" which can only run on an Nvidia GPU.

[BIG OLAF]

Yeah you can ignore it.

You can actually get a pretty decent gaming PC for relatively cheap, but it requires a lot of knowledge and can be extremely overwhelming if you're not a big PC person.

Yeah, I know nothing about computers. If, by some miracle, I actually get ajo and save up enough money to afford a good gaming PC, I'll have no goddamned idea what the hell to look for, anyway. Looking at computer specs might as well be braille.

I'll probably end up accidentally buying some shitty computer that can't run PSO2 anyway, and waste all my money.

[amtalx]

I don't think I could give less of a shit about PhysX. It's just window dressing so the PC master race can fap to their rigs.

[kyuuketsuki]

Physics engines blow when not tweaked very carefully (look on Youtube for some physics hilarity in Oblivion, among many other games), and even then it's still often inferior to "hand-made" animations. I never saw the appeal of having bodies flailing around like empty sacks, debris tumbling around in a totally unbelievable manner, etc.

Yes yes, you can present a few examples where very carefully tweaked physics engines do some impressive effects, but that's few and far between.

[yoshiblue]

Got to love the covenant vehicles in Reach. That and teleporting bodys.

[Minto44]

Nvidia really are the best cards. No reason not to have one. Glad they're taking this route.

[lostinseganet]

Didn't they talk about a high def pack or something in the past?

[Arkios]

Nvidia really are the best cards. No reason not to have one. Glad they're taking this route.

This is obviously a troll, but I'm going to bite anyways.

PhysX is complete crap and has been deemed crap for quite some time. The sheer fact that it's proprietary to Nvidia cards and they even LOCK you out of using PhysX Acceleration on any other cards is stupid.

OpenCL, or something else that is cross-platform would have been infinitely better.

[Serephim]

I have no idea what Nvidia Physx is, what it means for the game, or what kinds of computer I'll need to run it on. Is it bad news, good news, or what..?

It means damn near nothing except for very pretty physics-controlled articles/parts on the body (Hair breasts straps strings belts ect ect) and perhaps the environments. But for some reason it's getting discussion like it's going to matter. It will have no impact on gameplay aside from cosmetics. But anything that uses it will probably be very very pretty looking. (hence the flowing hair and stuff on clothing)

It's probably barely even utulizing. I think the only things ive seen it on are the characters. MAYBE the tails of the savage wolves, but i really can't tell.


For all we know, it might not even be using it for the collision engine itself. But even if it is, PhysiX is solid enough to ensure that we probably wont be getting too many glitches from it. I dont think this is going to be like Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 and Havok.

[Arkios]

For anyone interested, this video shows what PhysX has done on other games.

Boobs may not bounce without PhysX enabled. :-( (Unconfirmed)

(Watch in 720p, easier to tell the difference)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x9B_4qBAkk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x9B_4qBAkk

[Selphea]

Extra note: There is a patch available that allows you to run PhysX on an ATi card, but there is a lot to it and it can be a royal pain in the butt.

Would this patch make it past Lameguard though?

[BIG OLAF]

Boobs may not bounce without PhysX enabled. :-( (Unconfirmed)

Don't you dare say that. :-o

[Arkios]

Would this patch make it past Lameguard though?

Yeah it's a Windows 7 patch. You still have to be running an Nvidia card on the system though.

[Serephim]

you might not be able to even turn something like that off. It's using PhysX but nobody said it was using anything that takes ridiculous amounts of CPU power. They would have specified otherwise.

Just because it's using the engine doesn't mean you'll need a high-end PC to play it, thats the whole point.

[kyuuketsuki]

Yeah it's a Windows 7 patch. You still have to be running an Nvidia card on the system though.
So there's a patch that allows you to use PhysX on an ATi card, but it requires an nVidia card... huh? :???:

[Arkios]

So there's a patch that allows you to use PhysX on an ATi card, but it requires an nVidia card... huh? :???:

It lets you use your ATi card as your main card and run the PhysX acceleration on the Nvidia card. That way you can play using your nice new ATi card and just throw in some cheap Nvidia card to handle the PhysX.

[Vashyron]

I think I have found use for my Old Nvidia card. :wacko:

[Demon-]

Was thinking the same thing.

[Vashyron]

...But then I just remembered I sold it. :wacko:

[Zaix]

I'll have to compare my Laptop's (ATI) and desktop's (NVidia) performances. Just as note both of them are really high end and probably slaughter PSO2 either way.

[kyuuketsuki]

It lets you use your ATi card as your main card and run the PhysX acceleration on the Nvidia card. That way you can play using your nice new ATi card and just throw in some cheap Nvidia card to handle the PhysX.
Ah got it. Thanks. Still not worth the effort, IMO.

I'll have to compare my Laptop's (ATI) and desktop's (NVidia) performances. Just as note both of them are really high end and probably slaughter PSO2 either way.
Just as long as you realize mobile graphics chipsets are generally inferior to desktop graphics cards, unless your laptop has considerably newer hardware than your desktop.

[Zaix]

Yeah my laptop is about 1 year old and my desktop is about 3 years old. They should be rather even.

[blazingsonic]

What kind of graphics card would I need for that?

[Mag-X]

What kind of graphics card would I need for that?
PhysX will run on any Nvidia GeForce card from the 8000 series or newer (except maybe some of the really low end models). So an 8000, 9000, 200, 400, or 500 series card.

[Randomness]

I'm seeing all this stuff about graphics cards supporting PhysX... but I'm fairly sure it can be done on the CPU. (Since my card has a setting that lets me tell it to run PhysX on the CPU rather than the card)

[Mag-X]

Yes. It will run on the CPU ... like crap. My PC can run Batman Arkham Asylum at max settings with PhysX set to high at over 100 FPS. With PhysX set to CPU, it runs at about 20FPS. Nvidia makes it run like shit on the CPU on purpose.

[amtalx]

Yes. It will run on the CPU ... like crap. My PC can run Batman Arkham Asylum at max settings with PhysX set to high at over 100 FPS. With PhysX set to CPU, it runs at about 20FPS. Nvidia makes it run like shit on the CPU on purpose.
It's more likely that software emuation of a API designed for hardware acceleration runs slowy...like with everything else.

[Zyrusticae]

You should also consider the possibility that your games are CPU limited rather than GPU limited (that is to say, your GPU is faster than your CPU).

[Randomness]

You should also consider the possibility that your games are CPU limited rather than GPU limited (that is to say, your GPU is faster than your CPU).

Well, I just felt like the CPU option hadn't even been noted.

Obviously it'll be slower.

[Serephim]

Have you guys not realized that PhysX is not only software but also refers to a literal expansion card? Like i said before, just because guys went digging through the files and say "Physx" doesnt mean you'll need an Nvidia card or something. It's probably functioning no differently than an engine like Havok.

Why the hell would sega develop a game meant for "all computers", but only make a key feature (that, like i said, MIGHT not even be able to be turned off) that works well on Nvidia cards?

[Zynetic]

Maybe so that if people do have nVidia cards, they can use that exclusive feature in the game so the game looks better. People who don't have Nvidia cards can still play the game, this feature just won't work.

While the game might be designed for 'all computers', restricting better computers from getting better graphics would be dumb, but I highly doubt Sega would do that. Then again, it's Sega.

Use your brain, please.

[Serephim]

So you're telling me, everyone we've seen playing the game now just so happens to be using Nvidia graphics cards? No ATI or anything? Somehow i doubt that. But seeing as none of us are sure right now.....

[Vashyron]

....Uh no it wouldn't mean Nvidia only. Like said several times already it can be run on the CPU.

And I have a ATI card, ran PSO2 already with everything on High, only on the title screen, but hey everything is working.

[Zynetic]

asdasdasd I can't read lol

[Serephim]

Thats what i mean. It can be run on the CPU, and probably most GPUs as well. Im not entirely positive, but i am sure that the Ageia PPU is used mostly for the very complex aspects of it, like the cloth tearing and crap like that.

But all this game seems to use it for is hair, clothing belts and titties.

[Zynetic]

Let it slide. I merely misinterpreted what you said.

[Serephim]

Fine : p

[Zynetic]

For some reason I thought you were saying that Physx worked well on Nvidia cards only, so Sega shouldn't be implementing it in. >_<

It's a fault on my end, sorry.

[Serephim]

Forgiven : 3

[Mag-X]

Here is an article about PhysX running on the CPU and why it is so slow: http://realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT070510142143

...anyway. From what little we've seen of the game so far, the only thing I can see that might be using PhysX is hair and clothes. Likley, those of you who cannot run PhysX will see hair and clothes that are stiff like in PSO1 and PSU, and pretty much every 3D game ever. That's probably it.

[Kanashimi]

Here is an article about PhysX running on the CPU and why it is so slow: http://realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT070510142143

This article's a little more friendly for the less tech-inclined: http://semiaccurate.com/2010/07/07/nvidia-purposefully-hobbles-physx-cpu/

EDIT:
Oh by the way. I dunno if they're going to make use of this, but Nvidia released PhysX-3 this past June, which finally... supports multithreading. >__>

EDIT 2:
As opposed to developers having to write in their own multithreading for PhysX 2.

EDIT 3: (because I'm a weirdo like that)
Upon further reading, it seems the "horror" of PhysX 2 largely depends on the effort developers make to optimize it for use on the CPU. So ignoring Nvidia's mistakes with the technology so far as CPU optimization, we're kind of in the PSO2 developers' hands on this one.

[Kion]

Spoiler: Wikipedia for those of you who don't know how to google
[spoiler-box]
PhysX is a proprietary realtime physics engine middleware SDK developed by Ageia (which itself was acquired by Nvidia in February 2008[1]) with the purchase of ETH Zurich spin-off NovodeX in 2004. The term PhysX can also refer to the PPU expansion card designed by Ageia to accelerate PhysX-enabled video games.
Video games supporting hardware acceleration by PhysX can be accelerated by either a PhysX PPU or a CUDA-enabled GeForce GPU (if it has at least 32 CUDA cores), thus offloading physics calculations from the CPU, allowing it to perform other tasks instead. This typically results in a smoother gaming experience and additional visual effects.
Middleware physics engines allow game developers to avoid writing their own code to handle the complex physics interactions possible in modern games. PhysX has provided physical simulation for more than 300 games.[2]
The PhysX engine and SDK are available for the following platforms: Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, PlayStation 3,[3][4] Xbox 360[5] and Wii.[6] The PhysX SDK is provided to developers of all platforms for free, both for commercial and non-commercial use.[7][/spoiler-box]

So basically Physx is a library that allows developers to save time by not having to write everything from the ground up. Speed can be enhanced by unloading some of the calculations from the CPU to the GPU (known as Cuda in nVidia terms). The minimum GPU listed on the alpha specs is the Geforce GT 7800 which is not cuda enabled, so there is no requirement that your graphics card will need to be nVidia. From the looks of the game, they're probably using it for knock backs, throws and possibly clothes, all of which are probably fine being based on the cpu.

[uhawww]

It's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. By modern standards, the overhead for PhysX is more than reasonable.

[Serephim]

Spoiler: Wikipedia for those of you who don't know how to google


So basically Physx is a library that allows developers to save time by not having to write everything from the ground up. Speed can be enhanced by unloading some of the calculations from the CPU to the GPU (known as Cuda in nVidia terms). The minimum GPU listed on the alpha specs is the Geforce GT 7800 which is not cuda enabled, so there is no requirement that your graphics card will need to be nVidia. From the looks of the game, they're probably using it for knock backs, throws and possibly clothes, all of which are probably fine being based on the cpu.


thats all i was suggesting. It's no different than a game that's running off Havok or something.

[Arkios]

I didn't think that was ever up for debate. The conversation was about PhysX Acceleration, which requires an Nvidia card and will not run on your CPU.

[Serephim]

I just dont see how that could possibly be necessary seeing how minimal the engine is even used.


I think they're using it pretty well, myself.

[Arkios]

I just dont see how that could possibly be necessary seeing how minimal the engine is even used.


I think they're using it pretty well, myself.

It's a fact. Look up PhysX Acceleration.

[NoiseHERO]

I dunno...

Looking at the low res version of this game...

I wouldn't be surprised if a hacked dreamcast could play PSO2... >_>;

[Serephim]

It's a fact. Look up PhysX Acceleration.

wait, what for?

[Arkios]

wait, what for?

That PhysX Acceleration requires an Nvidia card.

See the video that posted earlier. For those "bonus" effects in games, it requires that you enable PhysX Acceleration on your gfx card.

[Kion]

For clarity: YES, by definition a CUDA enabled GPU is required for PhysX Acceleration. But NO, it is not required to run the game.

(stupid china and it's freaking firewall; i can't watch youtube)



Looking at the low res version of this game; I wouldn't be surprised if a hacked dreamcast could play PSO2;

I would be surprised. The game could probably run on low resolution if it was built to run locally on the level a gamecube, but installing windos and running PSO2 as a PC game on dreamcast is pretty much impossible.

[blazingsonic]

I have no idea what Nvidia Physx is, what it means for the game, or what kinds of computer I'll need to run it on. Is it bad news, good news, or what..?

My question exactly.

[Vashyron]

My question exactly.

... :wacko:

Your 'question exactly' is answered on that same page.

[NoiseHERO]

My question exactly.

TL;DR it makes inanimate objects like cloths, scarves or hair, thing's that'd flow in the wind or water or something Move realistically compared to other games simple physics. like how cloaks in PSU would just follow the players legs and look weird, now they'd actually blow in the wind fluidly, depending on player movement.

I think it's only going to be used on clothes, and hair in this game from evidence of this thread and gameplay... iono...

[blazingsonic]

Okay thanks

[sperle]

How about a Nvidia GTX 260m in my laptop? I just downloaded the driver.

[Arkios]

How about a Nvidia GTX 260m in my laptop? I just downloaded the driver.

Yep, that card will work.

See: http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_geforce_gtx_260m_us.html

[Criss]

Keep in mind, PhysX is just a middleware physics library, and developers are free to use whatever features they want from it, which will mostly be cloth physics and some environmental stuff in this case. Few PhysX games actually support hardware acceleration, and I doubt PSO2 will. Besides, nowadays you can just have a cheap nvidia card decidated to PhysX hardware acceleration while running on a main ATI card.

So no worries, PSO2 isn't going to require an Nvidia card, nor does this mean it'll need a high-end computer.

If anything, it just means SEGA is willing to spend some money on third party middleware to save on development time and have a better quality product, which is excellent news.

[kyuuketsuki]

I dunno, if PhysX is responsible for that annoying "boob twitch" I wouldn't say it makes for a better quality product. 'Course, that could also be Sega's team needing to tweak the physics some more.