Combat Mechanics/RPG Elements

[Cayenne]

I'm making this thread to discuss how the combat system and RPG part of the game are turning out so far and to see how it will progress with Beta and future changes.

As for my part of the rant, It's looking great except for 2 things:

1) Where is the missing of weapons? From what I've seen so far it's become into a hack n' slash that ALWAYS hit on contact. Great for some but I like to go in there and kick some ass but then that WHOOSE comes, i miss and i get hit hard. PSO made you pick weapons on making sacrifices i.e. if swords always hit then i see no reason to have a partisan.

2) Is evasion replaced by dodging?

I'm just seeing a little bit less RPG in the combat, the rest looks AMAZING!

Feel free to debate what I've said and add anything else.

F.Y.I.: New member, first post/thread.

[•Col•]

1) Where is the missing of weapons? From what I've seen so far it's become into a hack n' slash that ALWAYS hit on contact. Great for some but I like to go in there and kick some ass but then that WHOOSE comes, i miss and i get hit hard. PSO made you pick weapons on making sacrifices i.e. if swords always hit then i see no reason to have a partisan.

I would've used Partisans over Swords in PSO even if they even accuracy stats. They still had different attack speeds, you know.

Anyway, there are plenty of ways to differentiate weapons(especially with the new battle system in place) other than stats. Looking back... The "MISS" that would pop up back in PSO was pretty stupid. You could get killed by a mob of monsters, through no fault of your own, even if you're playing perfectly. :/

[Serephim]

They're trying hard to be an action game, and have been since PSU. And it's probably going to bite them in the ass, very hard later on.

But i dont know if it's a problem. It depends on how bad they are at making action games, honestly.

[Cayenne]

I would've used Partisans over Swords in PSO even if they even accuracy stats. They still had different attack speeds, you know.

Anyway, there are plenty of ways to differentiate weapons(especially with the new battle system in place) other than stats. Looking back... The "MISS" that would pop up back in PSO was pretty stupid. You could get killed by a mob of monsters, through no fault of your own, even if you're playing perfectly. :/
I've always used partisans, rarely would I use swords (unless they were rare and to show off), I was giving one example between the two.

That MISS (stupid or not) gave it a bit of a challenge to the game, that's all I'm saying. I'm playing PSP2 right now and they replaced the MISS with 0 but it's there.


They're trying hard to be an action game, and have been since PSU. And it's probably going to bite them in the ass, very hard later on.

But i dont know if it's a problem. It depends on how bad they are at making action games, honestly.
Hated PSU but i'm liking PSP2 so far (weird, kinda the same game :P). I'm not saying it's a problem, just an observation.

[•Col•]

I've always used partisans, rarely would I use swords (unless they were rare and to show off), I was giving one example between the two.

That MISS (stupid or not) gave it a bit of a challenge to the game, that's all I'm saying. I'm playing PSP2 right now and they replaced the MISS with 0 but it's there.

Yes, increasing game difficulty by punishing you for doing things correctly. (Aka bad game design)

I should note that I actually didn't mind the MISS at all in PSO. Like I said though, there are much better ways of differentiating weapons than the accuracy stats. :/

[Sol_Vent]

I would absolutely hate it if they brought back random missing. It was the most annoying fake difficulty in any game I can think of.

Success based on stats isn't what makes an RPG an RPG. The capacity of a game to allow the player to fit into roles makes it a role-playing game. (Gasp!) Giving players the option of becoming better and worse in certain areas than others and using those strengths in tandem to become the best damn heroes you can be is what RPGs are all about.

ATA makes things challenging? Sure. But there are better ways to make games difficult than randomly punishing players for doing exactly what they should be doing.

EDIT: Heh. Rant ninja'd.

[Cayenne]

Yes, increasing game difficulty by punishing you for doing things correctly. (Aka bad game design)

I should note that I actually didn't mind the MISS at all in PSO. Like I said though, there are much better ways of differentiating weapons than the accuracy stats. :/
Same, didn't hate it or loved it but it was there and I just went with it, I'm curious to see how much deeper combat and weapons can/will be.


I would absolutely hate it if they brought back random missing. It was the most annoying fake difficulty in any game I can think of.

Success based on stats isn't what makes an RPG an RPG. The capacity of a game to allow the player to fit into roles makes it a role-playing game. (Gasp!) Giving players the option of becoming better and worse in certain areas than others and using those strengths in tandem to become the best damn heroes you can be is what RPGs are all about.

ATA makes things challenging? Sure. But there are better ways to make games difficult than randomly punishing players for doing exactly what they should be doing.

EDIT: Heh. Rant ninja'd.
Rant away, that's what this thread is about.

I just don't want the game to end up where you can plow through anything without any effort, I'm looking for some depth/challenge in combat and right now we've only see a small part of the game, who know how the other stages/enemies will change the experience/strategies.

[Zyrusticae]

Now you've done it!

INCOMING RPG MECHANICS RANT:

The whole reason they kept the, quite frankly, utterly bonkers "miss" mechanic is simple inflexibility. See, the mechanic was basically borrowed from old-school tabletop RPGs, where the dice roll stood in for the character's ability to land at least grazing hits. In other words, it was an abstraction. When they did tabletop -> PC RPG conversions (like the old Gold Box games, or especially the Infinity Engine games), they pulled the mechanic over wholesale because they used an RTS-like combat system. When they started stripping out the RTS elements, however, especially the multiple character control (NWN, I'm lookin' at you!), they somehow failed to realize that the game's combat lost most of its charm in the process.

PSO essentially kept the mechanic because it was an RPG tradition at that point. However, as the combat becomes less and less abstract, it becomes more and more glaring when you see attacks physically intersect the target and pass through doing absolutely no damage at all. It was ESPECIALLY nonsense in Morrowind - here you had this tactile combat, where you could actually aim your attacks on your target in specific locations, and yet for some gawdamn reason you were still relegated to letting dice rolls determine whether your attacks did any effect at all. Wtf?

You can imagine my relief when Oblivion dropped the mechanic. Unfortunately, they didn't put adequate depth into the combat in its place. (I can't comment on Skyrim's until I actually get my hands on it). The PSO2 dev team, thankfully, does not appear to be making the same mistake. We have dodge rolls, blocking, custom combos, the works. Combat is finally moving out of the realm of the bizarrely halfway-abstract into the realm of actual, tactile, intuitive action-based fighting. All they need to do now is take all the right cues from other action games - with enemies that are intelligent, have a variety of tactics, and require forethought and tactical precision to engage safely.

Of course, we don't know if the team is even capable of this much. We shall see, yes?

[Cayenne]

You can imagine my relief when Oblivion dropped the mechanic. Unfortunately, they didn't put adequate depth into the combat in its place.

That's a better way of what I wanted to say or tell but couldn't figure out. The miss was just a part of PSO and they removed it but like you just said in oblivion, combat was hampered and it must be replaced/fixed/changed in order to keep the action fun and exciting.

TBH I was afraid of the change in combat/gameplay since PSU and, yeah...

After what you just said, I'm more confident that the PSO2 team are true die hard fans and won't let this title flop.

Reason I mentioned the whole MISS mechanic was because it's in TONS of RPGs and other action ones as well (duh, Diablo) and the title of Action RPG was in my head but you know what, if it's fun, fuck it, get rid of the miss.

[Serephim]

Why are you guys forgetting that "miss" has been gone since PSU v1?

It was replaced with "Blocked", which basically equates to dealing 0's. Only difference is the enemy reacted to it.


It isn't a bad idea. It's just an easier way to balance things.


Trust me, if they replace it with something that doesn't work as well, it wont be much better.

[sugarFO]

I don't like 'miss' in any contemporary games. 'Miss' was more for old school like final fantasy and such. Now let us be able to hit!

[Serephim]

I just said....


...nevermind : |

[kyuuketsuki]

There's really nothing wrong with the "miss" as it was in PSO. It was not "punishing" you for doing what you should be doing. It was simply giving a tradeoff -- like swords vs. partisans. Swords did more damage, but were slower and missed more. You knowingly made the tradeoff, and had to integrate the greater possibility for missing in your playing (or compensate with extra HP/DEF to take the hits resulting from whiffing).

Yeah, it's roots are from tabletop RPGs where it was an abstraction (like all character stats, of course), but it's not much different from any other stat/attribute/whatever. Does it make much sense for your character to be able to gain super-human like strength over time without changing in appearance (STR)? Or for you to somehow be able to take less damage from hits (DEF)? Or take increasing amounts of punishment and shrug it off (HP)? Of course not, but they're merely abstracts.

Granted, it does feel a little weird when you have more... personal, visceral, action-style combat in a game like PSO, rather than playing a tabletop game or an RPG like Final Fantasy, Fallout (not the aberration that is Fallout 3, I mean the originals), etc. So, I rather like the solution where it becomes a "zero" or "block" and the enemy takes no damage rather than a "miss", but it amounts to the same thing, it's just a different word. Of course, they add the "flinch" or "block" animation and that eliminates the extra "punishment" of getting hit, but that's fine. I'm not in love with the concept of the "miss" and getting hit for it, I'm just defending it against the idea that it was "bad."

I'm not against them removing ATA either. If they have a better solution for making tradeoffs between classes/weapon types and it's not needed, cool. I'm for what works better, not having some pro-/anti-ATA ideological stance.

[Serephim]

It wasn't a bad idea, i dont know where people are pulling that from. Without some form of it, both PSO and PSU would have been absolute trash.

And PSO2 will probably be trash without some form of it as well. Just wait, and remember i said this. This is an action MMORPG with some action-game mechanics, but it is NOT an action game.

[Pillan]

If the lack of a "miss" from an accuracy stat makes a game "trash," the Force class always has been and always will be "trash."

[Angelo]

I really don't mind the absence of missing as long as they keep it the way they did in PSU where the enemy still reacts and can have CC effects given regardless of accuracy (knock down, freeze, etc.).

I actually prefer it that way to be quite honest.

But still, having accuracy as a dice-roll removed altogether would be ideal.


If the lack of a "miss" from an accuracy stat makes a game "trash," the Force class always has been and always will be "trash."

Techs could miss in PSU.

[Pillan]

Techs could miss in PSU.

I have to correct that one. Enemy special abilities that used TP could miss (e.g., the light "tech" in White Beast) and some enemy specials could reduce all tech damage to zero while shielded. Techniques used by Forces cannot miss otherwise in any of the games.

[Angelo]

I have to correct that one. Enemy special abilities that used TP could miss (e.g., the light "tech" in White Beast) and some enemy specials could reduce all tech damage to zero while shielded. Techniques used by Forces cannot miss otherwise in any of the games.

Huh, maybe you're right. I wouldn't know, FO is my least favorite class, though I did level one to about 40ish in PSU just for kicks. I seem to remember Dambarta missing occasionally. I'll just take your word for it.

[Pillan]

Huh, maybe you're right. I wouldn't know, FO is my least favorite class, though I did level one to about 40ish in PSU just for kicks. I seem to remember Dambarta missing occasionally. I'll just take your word for it.

Kamatoze "dambarta" misses, but it is one of those fake techs. You can see the difference by the fact that it hits 360 degrees around the Kamatoze and it has freeze level 5.

[moorebounce]

They're trying hard to be an action game, and have been since PSU. And it's probably going to bite them in the ass, very hard later on.

But i dont know if it's a problem. It depends on how bad they are at making action games, honestly.

PSO, PSU and PSO2 are "ACTION" RPGs.


2) Is evasion replaced by dodging?

No. Evasion is the speed at which you move around and get out of hitting animations. Dodging is an added feature just like jumping is.

[Pillan]

No. Evasion is the speed at which you move around and get out of hitting animations. Dodging is an added feature just like jumping is.

Can anyone confirm that? From what I have seen, it looks like the "evasion" stat has been replaced by "gun defense" and there is no "speed" stat or "auto-block/auto-dodge" stat.

[Serephim]

No. Evasion is the speed at which you move around and get out of hitting animations. Dodging is an added feature just like jumping is.


Uh, where did you get that from?

You know, "evasion" is the opposite of "getting hit".


PSO, PSU and PSO2 are "ACTION" RPGs.

Yes indeed. They aren't action games though, nor should they try to be.

Just like an RPG can take cues from movies, but should never try to BE movies.

[Zyrusticae]

Your opinion is entirely irrelevant.

PSO2 is clearly trying to be an action game. Whether you like it or not.

[•Col•]

Yeah, to me it seems like they're trying to go in a Monster Hunter-esque route with the Phantasy Star series, which again to me seems like a good idea. As long as they differentiate themselves from MH enough (aside from the obvious setting differences)...

[Angelo]

I love that it's becoming more of an action game.

Hell, I'd be happy if they got rid of levels altogether, but getting rid of character levels is a good step.

[Randomness]

I love that it's becoming more of an action game.

Hell, I'd be happy if they got rid of levels altogether, but getting rid of character levels is a good step.

Luck-based progression? No thanks.

[Pillan]

I love that it's becoming more of an action game.

Hell, I'd be happy if they got rid of levels altogether, but getting rid of character levels is a good step.

Getting rid of levels entirely would be horrible marketing, as you could access all the areas from the beginning. And once you have done that, the population sinks down to people who want to hunt for the ultimate one in a million drop, which is a very small portion of the community.

That said, it's hard to generate an argument as to why character growth has to be stat growth instead of just skill tree growth, assuming that there is still a minimum level requirement to access more difficult missions.

[ShadowDragon28]

um PSO pre-dates Monster Hunter, if anything MH got heavy inspiration from PSO... the Phantasy Star series on the 8 bit and 16 bit sega consoles was turn-based; as in Ps I, Ps II, Ps III, and Ps IV are all turn based.

It was PSO that started the game mechanic framework to be an online action rpg. The online series games are NOT the end-all, be-all of Phantasy Star series. :/

[Serephim]

Your opinion is entirely irrelevant.


Anyone else find this statement absolutely hilarious?

[Cayenne]

Another observation I saw looking at the videos again, swords look like they kick enough ass to the point of not needing another hunter weapon. I hope that won't be the case

[•Col•]

um PSO pre-dates Monster Hunter, if anything MH got heavy inspiration from PSO... the Phantasy Star series on the 8 bit and 16 bit sega consoles was turn-based; as in Ps I, Ps II, Ps III, and Ps IV are all turn based.

PSO may have inspired aspects of MH, but like I said, now it seems like PSO2 is taking notes from MH.

[moorebounce]

Uh, where did you get that from?

You know, "evasion" is the opposite of "getting hit".

Thats what I was saying but read it slowly next time. The enemy isn't hitting you. It's how fast you get out of a attack animation. They should've called the evasion stat agility instead.




Yes indeed. They aren't action games though, nor should they try to be.

Just like an RPG can take cues from movies, but should never try to BE movies.

The action part of the game is the only reason I started and still play PSO. If PSO were turn-based fighting I would have never touched it. Turn-based fighting sucks hairy bean bags.


Your opinion is entirely irrelevant.

PSO2 is clearly trying to be an action game. Whether you like it or not.

I'm trying to figure out how so many people missed where Sega said PSO starting on the dreamcast was an ACTION RPG? If you are having problems coming to grips with that maybe you need to play something you consider a true RPG and stop complaining about the PSO series. I could see if Sega didn't mention it was an Action RPG but they did. So everybody was warned before hand.

[Dinosaur]

I don't see what the big deal about it being an action game or RPG is. That's the beauty of PSO; it's a wonderful blend of RPG and action elements put into one.

[ShadowDragon28]

I think PSO2 could benefit with some more RPG/adventure type aspects, for like special quests/missions. Something like Firedome Swirl where you put out fires and rescue NPC's, or look through a beach at night and chase down light spirits and meet Nights like in the one quest in PSO ep I&II... traversing a classic Phantasy Star I type dungeon maze looking for a certain NPC and his data files... some things along those lines.

[Cayenne]

I think PSO2 could benefit with some more RPG/adventure type aspects, for like special quests/missions. Something like Firedome Swirl where you put out fires and rescue NPC's, or look through a beach at night and chase down light spirits and meet Nights like in the one quest in PSO ep I&II... traversing a classic Phantasy Star I type dungeon maze looking for a certain NPC and his data files... some things along those lines.

You serious?

I can do without any quest or a deep story. The combat, how easy it is to jump in and play with people online (offline with your friends on GC), and treasure hunting is what made us become fans of PSO. If PSO2 has these 3 locked down then we can expect another game with a bigger fan based than the first one.

One more thing to add, will there be an increase in item quantity? I can't tell from the blurry videos that the amount of a certain item you can hold will be more than 10. I've hated that since PSO, come on you can hold more than 10 items.

Maybe Final Fantasy has spoiled me (crosses fingers for 99 item quantity storage)

[Tetsaru]

I can do without any quest or a deep story.

Soooo... you'd rather do repetitive 10-minute runs of the same boring missions like White Beast over and over, zerging through mindless enemies like they were made out of tissue paper, until your fingers bleed from trying to find that one single ridiculously rare item board from the boss that breaks later or doesn't synth into a high %, and only encourages you to do it all over again? :rolleyes:

That kind of gameplay is exactly what killed PSU for me. Sure, I like beating the shit out of everything in my path, but I also like doing quests and learning about the game's environment, the interactions between characters, the conflicts that drive the plot. If you say you're spoiled by Final Fantasy games, then you should know exactly what I'm talking about here. Granted, a lot of quests and storyline can seem kinda stupid, cliched, and/or not very well thought out... but still, it provides a much more engrossing experience instead of "LOL, I can needlessly beat this S-9001 rank mission in 5 minutes because I can 1-shot everything including this shitty boss, look at how overpowered I am because Sonic Team can't balance things worth a damn."

[ShadowDragon28]

I'm totally serious. You never played any of PSO's quests? FFS Many of them kicked ass and were fun. Fire Dome Swirl was AWESOME and a FUN homage to the Sega Saturn game "Burning Rangers".

Sometimes people need a break from doing the same "kill everything" mission grind. ffs

[Cayenne]

Soooo... you'd rather do repetitive 10-minute runs of the same boring missions...

Yes, I would, been doing that since PSO began and don't deny that you didn't do the same thing.

I'm interested in a story from any game but much much less from an online RPG. I never once read the back story from ANY MMO quest I've every played and still had a blast playing them. When it comes to single player RPGs, yes I am (needs a good story or I won't play'em) but this game is focused on combat and interaction with other players (12 people fighting at once? AWESOME!!!)

Be honest, when PSO:BB came out, we were all curious to know what else Episode 4 had to reveal, one day of playing and BAM, you learned everything, what's left? COMBAT. We all payed the monthly fee to SEGA to do the same repetitive thing we did since Dreamcast and we didn't care because it was a fun experience.

Give me a back story, leave the deeper stuff an option for those who care, insert fun missions, and let thou wield thy sword and slay-est some ass!

Edit: PSU had a horrible story, I've played a few hours of single player and i gave up (voice acting, what a fucking joke), online was so so but not worth paying monthly and the game play didn't save it either, PSU had so many things wrong wit it.


I'm totally serious. You never played any of PSO's quests? FFS Many of them kicked ass and were fun. Fire Dome Swirl was AWESOME and a FUN homage to the Sega Saturn game "Burning Rangers".

Sometimes people need a break from doing the same "kill everything" mission grind. ffs

I've played a few when i first started, never read the hologram thingy text, there was just nothing interesting about some guy that lost a pet, a part, a friend, or (insert plot line). They were ok to play but rarely attempted them. You are right about being bored so it's something ELSE to do and if they are fun, I would play them as well.

I would say make quest for those that care about them and make missions that are similar to them but no boring back story or dreaded dialog. Slap on a quick mission briefing, objectives and let me be on my way.

[Tetsaru]

Yes, I would, been doing that since PSO began and don't deny that you didn't do the same thing.

I'm interested in a story from any game but much much less from an online RPG. I never once read the back story from ANY MMO quest I've every played and still had a blast playing them. When it comes to single player RPGs, yes I am (needs a good story or I won't play'em) but this game is focused on combat and interaction with other players (12 people fighting at once? AWESOME!!!)

Be honest, when PSO:BB came out, we were all curious to know what else Episode 4 had to reveal, one day of playing and BAM, you learned everything, what's left? COMBAT. We all payed the monthly fee to SEGA to do the same repetitive thing we did since Dreamcast and we didn't care because it was a fun experience.

Give me a back story, leave the deeper stuff an option for those who care, insert fun missions, and let thou wield thy sword and slay-est some ass!

Edit: PSU had a horrible story, I've played a few hours of single player and i gave up (voice acting, what a fucking joke), online was so so but not worth paying monthly and the game play didn't save it either, PSU had so many things wrong wit it.

I'll agree with you that PSU's storyline was horrible (I didn't finish it either), and while I DID do multiple runs in PSO, it was usually because I was playing offline co-op with my friends and the overall difficulty of the game, as well as leveling up, was much more difficult; thus, teamwork was crucial, and it was much more satisfying when we were able to finally defeat Dark Falz or Olga Flow on Ultimate difficulty, etc. PSU used to be that way - I remember doing Seabed runs because it actually used to be DIFFICULT (all the pansy melee characters that were like "ZOMG BEE MAP ABANDON" along with the deadly Megid and Dambarta spewing Jarbas and the tanky Polavohras) and worth a lot of Mission Points for leveling your jobs - but then AotI and onward turned everything into easy mode, and Sonic Team stopped giving a shit overall.

My point is, PSO2 SHOULD be able to achieve BOTH fun, challenging, and strategical action-oriented gameplay AND a competent, well-written storyline that isn't full of overused and annoying Japanese/anime stereotypes. If I wanted to mindlessly kill the same enemies over and over, I'd probably play something along the lines of one of the many Dynasty Warrior games that keep getting churned out. And while that may be fun initially, it gets boring and repetitive after a while, and leaves you yearning for something more fulfilling and satisfying. PSU suffered that fate when it got to the point where all you had to do was spam moves like Anga Jabroga, Dus Majarra, and Chikki Kyoren-Jin, equip units that nullified certain status effects, and carry around an easily obtainable 10 Scape Dolls all the time to win. Along with Resta, Giresta, and Trimates that could be popped almost instantly, it was pretty much impossible to lose, unless you just absolutely didn't know how to play the game, or were just greatly underleveled (which even then, was rarely a problem because it was ridiculously easy to level up, and characters could use S rank items at low levels as well).

Oh, and just as a random side note (as well as for anyone else), use those multi-quote and edit buttons so the mods won't have to clean up your double posts. Just some basic forum etiquette to keep things nice and neat, that's all. ^^;

[Cayenne]

I get what you mean by dynasty warrior, boring from 0-60 in 2.5 hours.

It's the barbarian part in me that wants the action and no story, I wanna go in and cause some damage and yes it has to be fun and challenging (not annoying i.e. PSP2 enemies). I don't know who directed PSU but man I'm done talking about it, just too much to mention.

[RemiusTA]

Garrons Trechery was the coolest quest ever.

The end.

[moorebounce]

I don't see what the big deal about it being an action game or RPG is. That's the beauty of PSO; it's a wonderful blend of RPG and action elements put into one.

I'm with you on that. Most action games nowadays are a blend they just don't claim having RPG elements.

[Zyrusticae]

Well, pretty much everything is implementing "RPG elements" nowadays (meaning progression mechanics), so that's hardly worth noting. It's kind of assumed, really.

[Angelo]

Garrons Trechery was the coolest quest ever.

The end.

Was that the one where you're supposed to act out a movie?

My memory is a little hazy.

[RemiusTA]

Yeah, you acted out the movie, and then went on to the ruins part with the spirit attacking you, and then you run from the huge wall of fire with the forward camera angle towards the end. That's ignoring all the other unique things you have to do beforehand. (The fixed camera battle, running from the lava, team navagating the dark room, ect) And the fact that the party leader could change the music playing for everyone with the Jukebox item you get at the start of the quest. (I always played Burning Rangers)

And then there were the East/West Tower quests, which were very simple in execution but actually put you in an Area you couldn't access anywhere else in the game (the rest of the facility where you fight Gal Gryphon). It had a unique boss fight towards the end as well.

Phantasy Star Universe had no such quests, even during their best events. I don't remember any scripted sequences in that game.


PSO2? I demand them. With such a versatile engine, the possibilities are damn endless. Especially with the introduction of Stage Hazards (lava) and platforming (jumping).



And i personally believe that the "RPG" point of any action game deals with progressing your character with moves, and then defeating enemies (and puzzles) using those moves. Recent RPGs seem to ditch the concept of "puzzle bosses" or "puzzle stages" completely these days. PSO's Challenge Mode was wonderful, but for some odd reason (i've never thought about it really), PSP2's challenge mode was very much inferior to me. Probably because of solo drops and never really feeling like i needed to share anything because everything i needed dropped for me.

[Randomness]

I'll agree with you that PSU's storyline was horrible (I didn't finish it either), and while I DID do multiple runs in PSO, it was usually because I was playing offline co-op with my friends and the overall difficulty of the game, as well as leveling up, was much more difficult; thus, teamwork was crucial, and it was much more satisfying when we were able to finally defeat Dark Falz or Olga Flow on Ultimate difficulty, etc. PSU used to be that way - I remember doing Seabed runs because it actually used to be DIFFICULT (all the pansy melee characters that were like "ZOMG BEE MAP ABANDON" along with the deadly Megid and Dambarta spewing Jarbas and the tanky Polavohras) and worth a lot of Mission Points for leveling your jobs - but then AotI and onward turned everything into easy mode, and Sonic Team stopped giving a shit overall.

My point is, PSO2 SHOULD be able to achieve BOTH fun, challenging, and strategical action-oriented gameplay AND a competent, well-written storyline that isn't full of overused and annoying Japanese/anime stereotypes. If I wanted to mindlessly kill the same enemies over and over, I'd probably play something along the lines of one of the many Dynasty Warrior games that keep getting churned out. And while that may be fun initially, it gets boring and repetitive after a while, and leaves you yearning for something more fulfilling and satisfying. PSU suffered that fate when it got to the point where all you had to do was spam moves like Anga Jabroga, Dus Majarra, and Chikki Kyoren-Jin, equip units that nullified certain status effects, and carry around an easily obtainable 10 Scape Dolls all the time to win. Along with Resta, Giresta, and Trimates that could be popped almost instantly, it was pretty much impossible to lose, unless you just absolutely didn't know how to play the game, or were just greatly underleveled (which even then, was rarely a problem because it was ridiculously easy to level up, and characters could use S rank items at low levels as well).

Oh, and just as a random side note (as well as for anyone else), use those multi-quote and edit buttons so the mods won't have to clean up your double posts. Just some basic forum etiquette to keep things nice and neat, that's all. ^^;

Sad thing is, bees weren't actually hard to kill. The tiniest bit of teamwork and someone will be landing autohits from behind. Forces couldn't miss, either... so a FO from the front, a HU behind, and full damage output obtained.

But of course it's too hard for people to actually be on opposite sides of an enemy.

I mean, they could have been Deldepths, freezing you while being invulnerable and sliding all over 70% of the time.

[Cayenne]

So I'm reading the Info Thread and read this:
"Instead of raising a character level, there are class levels that you level up instead. For instance, if you level your Hunter class to 50, your Force and Ranger classes will still be level 1"

Now my concerns:

-does this mean you can max all 3 classes or limited to 49 levels to spread the points however you wish?

-can you wield any weapon or is it limited by your character's level/class/stats, something like points adjustments in PSU, or some other kind of new system?

[Mike]

-does this mean you can max all 3 classes or limited to 49 levels to spread the points however you wish?
You will likely be able to max out all classes. I'm not sure if you can spent points earned from leveling up force on ranger though.


-can you wield any weapon or is it limited by your character's level/class/stats, something like points adjustments in PSU, or some other kind of new system?
It was class based in the alpha. We don't know how subclasses affect this though. FYI, PSU was class based as well. PSP2 took the weapon customization down the point-based road.

[Cayenne]

You will likely be able to max out all classes. I'm not sure if you can spent points earned from leveling up force on ranger though.
I would prefer if you can max out no more than 2 classes. It gives you the option to focus on one class and then dick around with the other 2 (or kinda even all 3). I personally would like it if you are somewhat limited in points AND classes.

You can still level your character right? If so, did they say a max level? I'm saying this because I'm not sure the lvl. I see on the videos are the characters themselves or the class lvl.



It was class based in the alpha. We don't know how subclasses affect this though. FYI, PSU was class based as well. PSP2 took the weapon customization down the point-based road.That's right, PSU and PSP2 use different mechanics.

I saw the subclass thing that as well, I don't quite understand what they mean by sub class. What does the subclass do/change? (I am asking for your best intelligent guess)

[Zaix]

There is NO character level. There is ONLY class level.

[Mike]

You can still level your character right? If so, did they say a max level? I'm saying this because I'm not sure the lvl. I see on the videos are the characters themselves or the class lvl.
No. Level exists in type/class only. There is no character level.


I saw the subclass thing that as well, I don't quite understand what they mean by sub class. What does the subclass do/change? (I am asking for your best intelligent guess)
It allows you to assign a class to a secondary position. I think the general consenus is that this will allow you to use abilities from the sub-class at a reduced level essentially creating a hybrid class. This would kind of be like the wartecher, guntecher, etc from PSU.

[Zorafim]

What, we get sub classes now? Holy hell, that's awesome! So that's how they're going to allow for teching on the non-force jobs!

[NoiseHERO]

I'm... still gonna be a HUNTERXHUNTER

[Zorafim]

Hm, I don't think they'll allow for pure specialization. If you have a subclass, it doesn't seem clear that...

Oh! I see what you did there!

[Cayenne]

That make more sense. Kinda bummed out that you can't level your character but if this system is better then I'm all for it. Maybe I'm just old fashion.

I don't see anything else I can complain about lol. Been watching every video I can to see all the new features and man the levels are designed great so far (I'm getting bored of PSP2 levels, dull...), Action looks exciting, enemies seem to look like a challenge and not stale (also not annoying and frustration) and they seem to have a better AI (some of them have a ? over their head because they lost sight of you, very cool!).

This game is turning out great so far!

[RemiusTA]

No character levels but class levels?

Just an illusion. You still have character levels. You're just forced to start over should you switch classes.

[Mike]

No character levels but class levels?

Just an illusion. You still have character levels. You're just forced to start over should you switch classes.
True, but the since past few Phantasy Star have had a system where both class/type levels and character levels exist, saying that only class levels exist probably made things less confusing for some people.

[Cayenne]

So you can only reach Lvl 50?

Seems like it's going backwards

[Zorafim]

It's lv50 at first. Remember PSU. First, the big thing was A ranks and taking out De Ragan. Before we knew it, we were topping 100 and grinding feverously for that S rank. And before long, we were dancing around with a palette of 12*s with our 150s.

As for characters only getting stronger because of their class levels... i think I kinda like it. It was neat in PSU to be a high level character with a low level class, but when I played a lowbie class it just felt like I was a gimped character dragging my teammates down, or an unskilled high level being creepy with the low levels, depending on how I played. Now that class determines our level, it'll be like leveling a new character each time we try something new, so we have time to relearn our class from the beginning. It might be a nice change of pace.

Though combine that with this supposed subclass system, and I'm sure there will be complaints about being forced to level their character multiple times in order to perform optimal. Guess I can't criticize it, for good or for bad, until I try it out myself.

[RemiusTA]

It seems like the class level idea is just even more incentive to stick with one class combo, if you pair it up with the clothing affecting stats.

[Cayenne]

Guess I can't criticize it, for good or for bad, until I try it out myself.

Same. As much as I want to I can't and I know that once I start trashing the Class system before I know anything about it, more info will be reviled and it will turn out to be awesome.

Does anyone else know more about the leveling mechanics?

[yoshiblue]

Cool now I can be a Redmage or a HURAmar.

[SageAtlasEllimirri]

combat mechanics for xenoblade is fun

[Cayenne]

Is the info thread everything that we found out about this game or is there any we are missing?

Everything looks great from my end and I just wanna dive in and play!

[Canard de Bain]

It's lv50 at first. Remember PSU. First, the big thing was A ranks and taking out De Ragan. Before we knew it, we were topping 100 and grinding feverously for that S rank. And before long, we were dancing around with a palette of 12*s with our 150s.

As for characters only getting stronger because of their class levels... i think I kinda like it. It was neat in PSU to be a high level character with a low level class, but when I played a lowbie class it just felt like I was a gimped character dragging my teammates down, or an unskilled high level being creepy with the low levels, depending on how I played. Now that class determines our level, it'll be like leveling a new character each time we try something new, so we have time to relearn our class from the beginning. It might be a nice change of pace.

Though combine that with this supposed subclass system, and I'm sure there will be complaints about being forced to level their character multiple times in order to perform optimal. Guess I can't criticize it, for good or for bad, until I try it out myself.
B ranks were the highest when PSU came out.

[Zorafim]

I never was good at specifics~

[tkdyo]

I was pretty excited when I saw that for rangers you would actually have to aim your gun and for hunters it becomes a ninja gaiden type fight system. I think it adds a much greater variety to the game and allows for people from a range of different genres to enjoy the mmo experience.

Also I hate random misses. Nothing annoyed me more than standing there with my blade going through a monster "miss miss miss miss" >.>

[Cayenne]

I was pretty excited when I saw that for rangers you would actually have to aim your gun and for hunters it becomes a ninja gaiden type fight system. I think it adds a much greater variety to the game and allows for people from a range of different genres to enjoy the mmo experience.

Also I hate random misses. Nothing annoyed me more than standing there with my blade going through a monster "miss miss miss miss" >.>

After much thinking, playing PSP2 a lot, and everyone's input, I'm glad it's gone.

[kyuuketsuki]

[...] more info will be reviled and it will turn out to be awesome.
Typo, or clever turn-of-phrase? :-P

[Cayenne]

Type-O

[RemiusTA]

Type II; Bloom Trigger.

[Cayenne]

Another rant but I'm serious about this (thank you Zorafim and Remius for making some good points), I'll keep it simple.

PAs, Air Combos, PP:

-I would be ok if they didn't have PA, I honestly never liked them. I kinda miss the original Normal/Hard/special attack, to me it's what made PSO combat so different from the rest. Maybe add/change something unique other than PA

-The jumping I like (they could maybe cut down on how extreme it is) but I would prefer if i can jump and strike my opponent on the way down instead of floating like a feather. For RA/FO a slight kick back when you fire in the air but only 1 attack is aloud while airborne.

-Bring back TP, it made using magic more fun because you couldn't spam it away unless you had a giant stock of fluids and forces should be allowed to do that. Cast a few spells and then wait for the PP to recharge? It seems like it's holding back the full power of forces. Also maybe TP is used for HU/RA as well.

[RemiusTA]

Yeah, the floaty shit is really, really stupid. I guess they're taking it from Advent Children / Dissidia? It just looks ridiculous though. Even in Kingdom Hearts 2, where you NEVER touch the ground during your fights, the characters will still fall while during their attacks if you don't follow up with another one. The idea is to make it feel like the force of the attack is keeping them above the ground -- not that they're just ignoring gravity.

It's been toned down a bit i think, but it just looks completely stupid to me on Rangers. They do like a FULL stop while shooting their rifle in the air. I can understand a slightly slower descent, but jesus.


I don't believe the TP idea is a very good one for forces, honestly. It's just begging for trouble down the road IMO.

[Zyrusticae]

- PAs are in. They're what make up the "custom combo" system, actually.

From the info thread:

For Melee weapons, your the PAs you link to a weapon switch in sequential order through a combo. So if you use your first PA, the PA button changes to the 2nd PA, and if you use your 2nd PA your PA button changes to your 3rd PA equipped. Simply rearranging the PAs linked to your weapon will allow you to create your own custom combos!

I will note that, hypothetically, there would be little-to-no difference if they simply gave you random attacks to assign instead of PAs. They would functionally serve the same purpose.

I will also note that "hard" attacks are actually in, though not as a separate attack command; it works the same as the "just attack" system in PSU:AotI (though I imagine they simply increase the damage rather than applying a critical hit, unlike AotI).

-I noticed the floating thing, too.

Both Devil May Cry and God of War simply reduce gravity when you're attacking in the air; they don't remove it outright. It'd make sense for PSO2 to do the same, even if only to help maintain verisimilitude. (Though, granted, they could easily handwave it with their absurd sci-fi technology...)

-Uh... really? While I can kind of understand where you're coming from, Forces being consumable-dependent is just really not a good idea. After all, if rangers and hunters can get away exclusively with mates, why should forces have to suffer alone? And we still don't know just how much of an impact those pp talents really make. It could be that forces become able to spam with impunity at higher levels; we just don't know yet.

[Dinosaur]

If there was no air stop while attacking, then the pace of the game would be greatly changed. There has to be some commitment when attacking; if you could jump move+attack, everyone would be spamming it and the dash would be irrelevant.

[Cayenne]

I don't believe the TP idea is a very good one for forces, honestly. It's just begging for trouble down the road IMO.
Will forces be able to increase PP enough to make them a deadly weapon of elements?

Reason why I want TP is because in PSO you gain a lot of TP with further progression and you were able to unload a hell of a lot of damages but you needed fluids, lots of them and limited with that 10 item limit i hate.

If PP is limited on forces, you can only do small burst then the waiting game starts, that's really my only problem.


-Uh... really? While I can kind of understand where you're coming from, Forces being consumable-dependent is just really not a good idea. After all, if rangers and hunters can get away exclusively with mates, why should forces have to suffer alone? And we still don't know just how much of an impact those pp talents really make. It could be that forces become able to spam with impunity at higher levels; we just don't know yet.
We have yet to see how PP will progress and evolve in the future but I just don't like how it is in PSP2, just hope they do it right.


If there was no air stop while attacking, then the pace of the game would be greatly changed. There has to be some commitment when attacking; if you could jump move+attack, everyone would be spamming it and the dash would be irrelevant.
I don't mean like an air dash attack to your enemy, the jumping will be the same wither you attack or not. Jump as normal but while you are heading towards the target, you give'em an attack on the way down and maybe it slightly pushes you back when you hit for a feel of you hitting a solid object.

Hell, keep air combos but also keep gravity, if anything put gravity in half when you start a combo, you are still falling and it makes you act quickly (say to giant birds) because if you're too slow to respond, you fall and unable to finish the combo, makes you practice and actually focus on your timing and speed.

[•Col•]

I'm assuming the techs are going to be similar to PSU, in that every 10 levels, the tech's cost jumps up... And then steadily decreases for the next 9 levels. Forces will obviously get the highest tech level cap..... They also get several skills to lower PP cost of moves... And also several others which increase PP regen rate and max PP... Not to mention that PP recharges FAST.

I'm sure there won't be a problem with Forces nuking as long as they tweak all the numbers right.

[Cayenne]

I'm assuming the techs are going to be similar to PSU, in that every 10 levels, the tech's cost jumps up... And then steadily decreases for the next 9 levels. Forces will obviously get the highest tech level cap..... They also get several skills to lower PP cost of moves... And also several others which increase PP regen rate and max PP... Not to mention that PP recharges FAST.

I'm sure there won't be a problem with Forces nuking as long as they tweak all the numbers right.

Let's see if they play their cards right.

What about the jumping/air combos and PA? Any onions?

[NoiseHERO]

I want my FOmar to shout "POWER WAVE!" for every Barta.

[Cayenne]

So after looking at different thread and all the info we've gathered, I'm really excited about this game and can't wait to play the hell out of it!,

I just wanna say a few things I wish SEGA addresses, fixes, or hope they already did get right:

-add some sort of gravity for air attacks/combos
-give each race/sex some sort of noticeable advantages (also disadvantages) from the rest (besides looks)
-give us a wide variety of weapons to use
-Different animation for each race/sex (highly doubt it)

A guy can wish, crossing my fingers, and I'll be back in a few months, until then I'm gonna find something else to distract my ADD mind.

[RemiusTA]

I dont see what was ever wrong with the TP bar from PSO....


...i mean, MP has been a good limiter of powerful techniques since the start of RPGs. Trying to make a "glass cannon" class that has a set limited use of their techniques is....well, i don't get it.


Unless the skill tree has an ability that allows you to do so....you lose the ability to completely unleash your arsenal of power, since you're forced to wait for a 100 PP bar to replenish. You're forced to stay on a specific timing, or you're empty. I loved that feeling when I had 10 Trifluids in my inventory, and a Trifluid dropped on the ground while i was fighting. BAM time to empty this TP bar out with Ra and Gi techniques, since i get it right back at no cost : 3


Now, we have to hope the developers set the regeneration and TP costs JUSTTTT right. Or we risk 1) having forces be shit (PSP2), or 2) having forces be damn near OP. (..PSP2i.)

[Dinosaur]

Attacking replenishes PP. FOcast for mayor.

[Alnet]

I want my FOmar to shout "POWER WAVE!" for every Barta.
Power Wave is orange. Use Reppuken.

Anyhow, I'll take the possibilty of FOrces being gamebroken over worthless. They can patch in harder stuff later on to make the power boosts worthwhile, since they seem to enjoy boosting everything up, rather than reducing power (I suppose that's not totally fair, after the nerfing of Dus Daggas in PSU and Blade Destruction in PSP2I).

But seriously, if FOrces start out the game being totally broken, then as the game gets harder, it should naturally level off to where the power they have is on par with what they should have. I'll take that over FOrces start off being on par with all other classes at the start, and becoming rapidly phased out as the game progresses.

[•Col•]

Skills, mang.

PP UP: Slightly increases max PP.... PP Regenerate: The amount of PP recovery increases... PP Convert: Temporarily increase the PP recovery rate, in exchange for your maximum HP, which decreases(active skill)...

[Spellbinder]

I'm assuming the techs are going to be similar to PSU, in that every 10 levels, the tech's cost jumps up... And then steadily decreases for the next 9 levels. Forces will obviously get the highest tech level cap..... They also get several skills to lower PP cost of moves... And also several others which increase PP regen rate and max PP... Not to mention that PP recharges FAST.

I'm sure there won't be a problem with Forces nuking as long as they tweak all the numbers right.

I can't remember which thread it was in, but someone made the assumption that the cost of Techs would actually go down when you level instead of up. This is supposedly based on one of the portable games but I've never played them so I have no clue. Anyone have info on this?

Also, looking at costs in general I've seen one or two shots take up half of a PP bar or more. I'd hope that costs don't go up, or that PP actually scales with level... or something... :(

[NoiseHERO]

Power Wave is orange. Use Reppuken.

Not as cool... ]:

@ remius, I don't mind "near OP" FO's... Hunter will never fall behind, and Ranger looks the most broken in this game so far anyway.

[RemiusTA]

Ranger is undoubtedly broken at this point. Already. With one weapon. At level 1.


I really hope we aren't the only ones who notice that shit.

[NoiseHERO]

Ranger is undoubtedly broken at this point. Already. With one weapon. At level 1.


I really hope we aren't the only ones who notice that shit.

I think theres a number of people still blinded by "OMG RANGER IS NOT BORING ANYMORE TPS GAMEPLAY" but when you're 10 hit combo killing enemies in the face with constant crits and dodge-rolling through mobs to their death, solo running using reflexive common sense and barely getting scratched. people will be wanting a nerf in no time.

[RemiusTA]

Seriously, you can run and gun to your hearts content in this game. It's ridiculous. The ONLY reason that works in REAL 3rd person shooter titles is because they shoot back at you.

I don't know what made them think getting rid of the Ranger's requirement to stand still/slow down while firing was a good idea. You should be forced to a walking speed (slow enough to not avoid attacks) while firing your weapon. Besides, who the hell can accurately fire a rifle while running?


Not to mention, they have fucking infinite, non-decaying range on that rifle.


Absolutely broken. Don't know what they're thinking. The fact they didn't bring it up (like they brought up non-charging techniques being trash as a big issue) bothers me very much.

[sugarFO]

Skills, mang.

PP UP: Slightly increases max PP.... PP Regenerate: The amount of PP recovery increases... PP Convert: Temporarily increase the PP recovery rate, in exchange for your maximum HP, which decreases(active skill)...

Yeah, I doubt we will have a problem with PP. I don't really like the TP idea from PSO when starting off. Yeah, as you leveled higher and got a mind mag you'd be fine, but initially starting off bare bones is a nightmare. At least in PSU if you wanted to only use technics you could fill up your 6 weapons with them and not worry too much.

[GCoffee]

The way they have been handling balancing with PSU we cannot expect them to nerf Rangers, but to power up Hunters and Forces to be as good as a Ranger, instead.

[Zyrusticae]

Well, see, hunters are already as powerful as rangers - assuming the step-dash remains as powerful as it is right now.

It's only forces that actually need buffing, and they have been getting buffs, so...

Besides, I still think the enemies become considerably more dangerous at higher levels. That's how it was in PSO, that's how it was in PSU, I can only expect the same from PSO2.

[RemiusTA]

Im almost positive the AI of the enemies will never be able to fairly stand up to the abilities that the alpha characters were capable of exploiting.

[GCoffee]

I am with Remius here, I can't see the enemy AI improving all that much.

@Zyrusticae: See, that's the thinking I do not like. I think that both Hunters and Rangers should be nerfed instead, since Forces do absolutely fine already. By fine I mean that the enemies at least are a tad challenging without being unfair. Buff Forces instead, and every class will slaughter to no ends.

[Zyrusticae]

Eh.

I'm still waiting to see how things change at higher difficulty levels. And, of course, I cannot imagine that they would lack feedback if the difficulty turns out to be too easy. And the fact that even Sakai himself plays his own game, well... how could they not notice something so obvious?

Either it'll get fixed, or it'll turn out that it's not really a problem to begin with. Or they're incompetent. Personally, I'd rather bet on the former two, even if it's just because I'm a hopeful kinda guy.

[RemiusTA]

Why do people keep believing things like broken movesets will magically change when the enemies start doing more damage?


What, are the Savage Wolves in ultimate mode gonna start just-guarding and step-canceling too? Or maybe start firing off rapid fireballs from across the stage?

[Zyrusticae]

Why do people keep believing things like the game's movesets are totally broken when they haven't even played the game themselves?

What, are blurry videos of some guy playing from across the ocean whose skill level you have no idea of actually valid evidence of complete borkedness? Are JP players somehow completely blind to things that would be obvious exploits?

[RemiusTA]

What, are blurry videos of some guy playing from across the ocean whose skill level you have no idea of actually valid evidence of complete borkedness?


.....YES?

We do it all the time with fighting games like Tekken or Blazblue that are in japanese arcades far before they get over here. And YES, we can EASILY tell when something is going to broke as fuck by the time it hits us.

The Japanese most definitely can as well, it isn't like it's invisible to them or vice versa. (Why do you think they were spamming it?) With a bit of abstract thinking, it isn't very hard in the slightest. The problem comes into play when the DEVELOPERS don't always pick up on stuff like that. If they more frequently did than didn't, i wouldn't really even be talking about it right now. It's obvious to people who frequently play videogames like this, but it's easy to overlook something so small and have it COMPLETELY blow up in your face later on when you're wondering why the balance is falling apart.

Example: When AotI released with slicers (and Chikki), i highly doubt the developers figured that it would become, hands down, THE most devastating weapon+PA combo in the game until they nerfed it. In hindsight, it was dumb as fuck to give hunters an ATP based, ranged weapon with damn near full-screen range, and a ridiculous ATP modified photon art with a 3 hit combo. That never missed. But nonetheless, it happened. And then happened again with Jarbroga and Majarra (which was a direct result of Just Attack giving 100% critical rate), and then AGAIN with Dus Skaad and Blade Destruction.



BTW, watching someone of variable skill (As in, someone who can EASILY pick up such exploits having played fighting games, or just a casual) completely rape the game's mechanics and destroy the levels of the game after only having access to the game for 2 days ( with a specific time window)....well, it isn't helping your situation in the slightest, bro. And it isn't rocket science to see that Rifles are 100% OP at this point. If you were to stick a weapon of that caliber in PSP2, the player would be invincible. Seeing as there are barely ANY enemies in Phantasy Star that can actually catch you while you're running full speed (and there likely won't be, as it would be completely unfair to non-melee classes), it's not a farcry to say Rangers will probably be able to fight naked in this game and not have an issue.


I could be wrong...but with the range capabilities and the fact you can combo with the rifle with absolutely no speed drawbacks (no pauses in running, no slowing down, no nothing), i just dont see how they'd be a fair weapon in their current situation.

[moorebounce]

This is what I'm starting to feel about all the spectulation about PSO2 based off of the Alpha build.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frsId3goYYE&feature=player_embedded

[Zyrusticae]

This is what I'm starting to feel about all the spectulation about PSO2 based off of the Alpha build.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TylvUGJIi_w

[Selphea]

If it's anything like PSU, higher difficulties mean enemies will probably move and attack much faster, gain new attacks (like your dreaded Go-Vahra jump) and throw homing MEGIDDO! They'll probably also add zergs of like, 15+ enemies in the 3 party areas, since PSO games seem to stick to a 5 enemies per 4 players ratio. Then again they're not bound by consoles anymore, so they might up it to 2:1 or 3:1, meaning up to 36 enemies in a 3 party area.

6 Carriguines/Dark Bringers who are more or less immune to ranged flinching and other forms of CC, 12 Gaozorans/Chaos Sorcs and 18 Deljaban/Dimenians with PSO speed buffs and PSU ninja flips in a laser caged room... sounds like fun times =p

[BIG OLAF]

If it's anything like PSU, higher difficulties mean enemies will probably move and attack much faster, gain new attacks (like your dreaded Go-Vahra jump) and throw homing MEGIDDO!

There were only a handful of enemies in PSU that moved and attacked faster on higher difficulties, and they still weren't hard.

[RemiusTA]

I'd venture to say Go Vahara's were the worst of them tbh.

[Alnet]

There were only a handful of enemies in PSU that moved and attacked faster on higher difficulties, and they still weren't hard.
Generally, this, but I recall some exceptions. Some of the enemies got considerably tougher in groups, namely Go Vahra, Vahra Merha, and Olgohmon, what with their group dynamic. The party leaders could boost their attack and defense, and even heal them, and they attacked in unison with things like rush-jumps, used flame breath in a defensive ring, and synchronized Barta in waves. Back when Lv60 was the cap, and we had Demons Above S for the first time, our 6-person party was absolutely massacred on the way to the boss (though we did complete the mission) because we had a Gohmon-heavy map. We actually had to send people to the lobby for more Scape Dolls.

Though later updates reduced the speed on enemies in higher difficulties, and removed the party leaders' ability to cast Resta. And it was a sad day.

Anyhow, my point is that when enemies had newer abilities on higher difficulties, they became much more dangerous than just being faster and stronger. When they took that away, the game became exponentially easier, and to the point of being too easy. As long as they remember to add things in at mid-to-late game without making it nauseatingly cheap (see PSO Episode 2: ALL ENEMIES MUST SHOOT INSTAKILL), I think that we can have a good challenge later on.

[RemiusTA]

Dont worry though. You'll be able to Just-Guard megid in this game.

along with Falz's Grantz and Olga Flow 2's 1-hitter quitter. Also, the final boss will throw Jupiter at you. You can just-guard that too.

[NoiseHERO]

Dont worry though. You'll be able to Just-Guard megid in this game.

along with Falz's Grantz and Olga Flow 2's 1-hitter quitter. Also, the final boss will throw Jupiter at you. You can just-guard that too.

At least you can't just-guard your teammate after he turns into a black digimon naruto demon thingie without warning. : O

(Let's be honest, we all laugh when that one happens though YEAH LAG)

[Selphea]

They'll give Falz multi hit attacks that will force players to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtuA5we0RZU

[RemiusTA]

Not a problem.


after Just Guarding in PSP2 you got like 293192031380 frames of invincibility and about 9 levels worth of experience anyway

[Spellbinder]

I think I'll just slip in here and ask my question again. ^^;

I was told that the cost of PP would go down and not up as characters gained levels akin to one of the portable games (which I've never played before). I tried looking up the portable games but couldn't find any info on this, so could someone help me out if they happen to know something about this.

[Dinosaur]

Im almost positive the AI of the enemies will never be able to fairly stand up to the abilities that the alpha characters were capable of exploiting.


I am with Remius here, I can't see the enemy AI improving all that much.

It's not so much enemy AI, it's their attacks.

You can have the stupidest enemy ever, but lets just say there's an enemy that can chain casting RAfoie on you, well... yea. You better have your dodge timing on spot.

[Cayenne]

Something I noticed while playing global agenda these past few days (fun game btw), the further you are from your target, the less damage you do, what if that was implemented to rangers?

Food for thought.

[BIG OLAF]

Something I noticed while playing global agenda these past few days (fun game btw), the further you are from your target, the less damage you do, what if that was implemented to rangers?

Food for thought.

I would rather have it to where you don't necessarily do less damage, but have your character more likely to miss (hit zero damage), the farther away they are.

[RemiusTA]

They better do something. If they don't im convinced they just have absolutely no idea how to balance anything. I sware, if they would just pay attention to PSO's gameplay systems, it would have solved all of the issues in both PSU and PSP2 both. IIRC, PSO scaled both the range and auto-target effectiveness to the grade of the weapon. I dont remember, they might have even scaled the accuracy/damage based on your distance, but i honestly can't remember. (It felt like i was more accurate the farther away I was. It might have only been that way because i was safer though.) The Auto-target idea may be somewhat moot thanks to TPS, but they can definitely still change the decay on the weapon accuracy. Technically, if you're doing ANY kind of moving, you should be less accurate than standing still. You guys have played FPS's before :/



But i really think it'd be fine if they just made you stop or slow down while firing your rifle. ATM it's like playing Halo 3 with a perfectly accurate Battle Rifle, barely any accuracy decay and enemies that just stand there and try to pick up rocks while you run circles around them, pelting them with endless clips of ammo.

Oh yeah, and grenades. And sometimes flaming/freezing ammo.


Rangers are broken and i haven't even played the game yet...

[Fenn777]

They better do something. If they don't im convinced they just have absolutely no idea how to balance anything. I sware, if they would just pay attention to PSO's gameplay systems, it would have solved all of the issues in both PSU and PSP2 both. IIRC, PSO scaled both the range and auto-target effectiveness to the grade of the weapon. I dont remember, they might have even scaled the accuracy/damage based on your distance, but i honestly can't remember. (It felt like i was more accurate the farther away I was. It might have only been that way because i was safer though.) The Auto-target idea may be somewhat moot thanks to TPS, but they can definitely still change the decay on the weapon accuracy. Technically, if you're doing ANY kind of moving, you should be less accurate than standing still. You guys have played FPS's before :/



But i really think it'd be fine if they just made you stop or slow down while firing your rifle. ATM it's like playing Halo 3 with a perfectly accurate Battle Rifle, barely any accuracy decay and enemies that just stand there and try to pick up rocks while you run circles around them, pelting them with endless clips of ammo.

Oh yeah, and grenades. And sometimes flaming/freezing ammo.


Rangers are broken and i haven't even played the game yet...

I agree about slowing down when TPS. If Force have to slow down when using techs, and hunters never really moved far with their attacks, rangers should slow down when strafing too. As it stands they're the most mobile class in the game right now.

[Randomness]

I agree about slowing down when TPS. If Force have to slow down when using techs, and hunters never really moved far with their attacks, rangers should slow down when strafing too. As it stands they're the most mobile class in the game right now.

They were slightly slower in PSU while strafing, but... not enough to ever matter. You only released strafe to turn :P

I'd say only slow while firing though, since they should be able to keep that view up without penalty, imo.

[Fenn777]

They were slightly slower in PSU while strafing, but... not enough to ever matter. You only released strafe to turn :P

I'd say only slow while firing though, since they should be able to keep that view up without penalty, imo.

Sorry I didn't play PSU :-o . I'd be fine with that, but the decrease should be more like 50-75%. Attacking should kake Rangers vulnerable like everyone else.

[Cayenne]

I don't know what they should do, I just don't want it to end up like PSU.

Reason why I keep saying this is because I saw a video years ago of a player fighting some high level enemies and he started the level with only 1 hp and ended beating it without getting hit.

Major game flaw.

[yoshiblue]

Why not make foes that avoid hunters and run straight to rangers and/or forces?

[Cayenne]

Thats a good idea.

[Zorafim]

I don't know what they should do, I just don't want it to end up like PSU.

Reason why I keep saying this is because I saw a video years ago of a player fighting some high level enemies and he started the level with only 1 hp and ended beating it without getting hit.

Major game flaw.

I'm sorry, but how is that a bad thing? I've always thought of it as a good mark in a game when you can play through it without getting hit.

[•Col•]

Why not make foes that avoid hunters and run straight to rangers and/or forces?

Then the Hunter class would be reduced to Provoking enemies with that one skill the entire time. :[

[Cayenne]

I'm sorry, but how is that a bad thing? I've always thought of it as a good mark in a game when you can play through it without getting hit.

He was only side stepping and it looks like you're prancing around like a little girl. He moved left or right and he wasn't shifting quickly from left to right, just left for a few seconds then right for a few and repeat, that's all there was to it. No unique gamer skill, exploit, or super fast thinking/reflexes, just the simple strafe.

It says you will have no problem dealing with bad guys from Level 1. Yeah, good mark there.

[RemiusTA]

Being able to complete the game without getting hit is less a sign of skill and more a sign of the abilities not being balanced right. Usually, the only reason anyone is ever able to get away with such a feat is because they are able to completely avoid taking damage... and in any RPG setting, thats an obvious sign of a broken mechanic. The culprit is almost always the blocking or "dodge" mechanic. Like Kingdom Hearts II and that ridiculous guard/Reflectaga spell.


An exception would be action games, since skill really IS the deciding factor in whether you live or die. (Ninja Gaiden 2, Devil May Cry, ect). DMC3 was a notoriously difficult game, but the battle engine is basically built around you defeating swarms of enemies without getting touched. Ninja Gaiden 2 is arguably much harder, but it's the same deal. In those games, there is a very thin ground between dying and never getting touched.

Seeing as Defense, Evasion and healing spells are a part of this game, things are a bit different. Personally, I think they should have some fun skill-based moments, and then some more "this is impossible without teammates" moments to balance it out.


Besides, the only Ranger and Hunter would be capable of doing such a thing. Hunters get invinci frames on Step, Rangers get to kill you in the next room. Unless Rafoie has been upgraded to PSO status again....

[Zorafim]

I wouldn't mind. Someone brought up global agenda somewhere (another thread?), and I want to continue that thought. There were four classes in that game, and they weren't even pretending to be balanced. The reason was that each one was so different, and did such different things, that each class was needed regardless of how strong each one was. If they do that in PSO2, things might be interesting.
Make hunters tanks, rangers support, and forcing healing, and on top of that give them damaging abilities, and people will want to be a particular class regardless of how good they are.

[sugarFO]

I wouldn't mind. Someone brought up global agenda somewhere (another thread?), and I want to continue that thought. There were four classes in that game, and they weren't even pretending to be balanced. The reason was that each one was so different, and did such different things, that each class was needed regardless of how strong each one was. If they do that in PSO2, things might be interesting.
Make hunters tanks, rangers support, and forcing healing, and on top of that give them damaging abilities, and people will want to be a particular class regardless of how good they are.

What I enjoyed about PSO is that at higher levels you weren't stuck in one particular role. You'd see melee forces and rangers and gun shooting hunters and all that. That's what drew me back to the game after years of World of Warcraft and other MMOs where classes were rigidly defined roles you couldn't be flexible about. I'd love to see forces choosing if they want to focus on dealing technic damage or being a healer/support in groups, or even if they want to use weapons for melee/ranged damage. Granted it wouldn't be as powerful as rangers or hunters but the option is still there for fun. I think removing the versatility of the classes to overlap would be a step backward, but that's just me.

[Cayenne]

I was the one that mentioned GA. Different classes, unbalanced maybe but fun to play (PvP is fun) but each class has their flaws and aren't invincible, they can get hit easily by any class or enemy A.I., you needed to do more than just strafe.

[yoshiblue]

Then the Hunter class would be reduced to Provoking enemies with that one skill the entire time. :[

I didn't say make all the foes do that. Of course you could always add a provoke skill that allows all mobs in front of you to target only you for a set amount of time.

[NoiseHERO]

They should make a berserk skill where your HP get's cut by 1/6th and your attack get's multiplied by 10- Oh wait it's easy to dodge in this game.

[RemiusTA]

IIRC i remember hearing about Hunters having a skill that attracts enemies.

Maybe im thinking of another game?


They should make a berserk skill where your HP get's cut by 1/6th and your attack get's multiplied by 10- Oh wait it's easy to dodge in this game.

They should make an evasion skill where you can go through enemy attacks the entire animation and you can cancel it into another skill that lets you attack directly after and then you can cancel tha-

o wait

[Geistritter]

I do believe that a provoke is in their skill tree, yes.

[Fenn777]

What I enjoyed about PSO is that at higher levels you weren't stuck in one particular role. You'd see melee forces and rangers and gun shooting hunters and all that. That's what drew me back to the game after years of World of Warcraft and other MMOs where classes were rigidly defined roles you couldn't be flexible about. I'd love to see forces choosing if they want to focus on dealing technic damage or being a healer/support in groups, or even if they want to use weapons for melee/ranged damage. Granted it wouldn't be as powerful as rangers or hunters but the option is still there for fun. I think removing the versatility of the classes to overlap would be a step backward, but that's just me.

^This. And I think Forces should be the most flexible of the three. So it would go: Hunters are the best fighters, rangers are the best support, force can do either just not equally well.

[lostinseganet]

Now you've done it!

INCOMING RPG MECHANICS RANT:

The whole reason they kept the, quite frankly, utterly bonkers "miss" mechanic is simple inflexibility. See, the mechanic was basically borrowed from old-school tabletop RPGs, where the dice roll stood in for the character's ability to land at least grazing hits. In other words, it was an abstraction. When they did tabletop -> PC RPG conversions (like the old Gold Box games, or especially the Infinity Engine games), they pulled the mechanic over wholesale because they used an RTS-like combat system. When they started stripping out the RTS elements, however, especially the multiple character control (NWN, I'm lookin' at you!), they somehow failed to realize that the game's combat lost most of its charm in the process.

PSO essentially kept the mechanic because it was an RPG tradition at that point. However, as the combat becomes less and less abstract, it becomes more and more glaring when you see attacks physically intersect the target and pass through doing absolutely no damage at all. It was ESPECIALLY nonsense in Morrowind - here you had this tactile combat, where you could actually aim your attacks on your target in specific locations, and yet for some gawdamn reason you were still relegated to letting dice rolls determine whether your attacks did any effect at all. Wtf?

You can imagine my relief when Oblivion dropped the mechanic. Unfortunately, they didn't put adequate depth into the combat in its place. (I can't comment on Skyrim's until I actually get my hands on it). The PSO2 dev team, thankfully, does not appear to be making the same mistake. We have dodge rolls, blocking, custom combos, the works. Combat is finally moving out of the realm of the bizarrely halfway-abstract into the realm of actual, tactile, intuitive action-based fighting. All they need to do now is take all the right cues from other action games - with enemies that are intelligent, have a variety of tactics, and require forethought and tactical precision to engage safely.

Of course, we don't know if the team is even capable of this much. We shall see, yes?So if an enemy had a poison tipped blade and attacked, and the player dodged. A zero hp loss would signify that the sword did touch the character but not puncture the character. The character could still be affected by the poison is some way.

Perhaps a character getting a hair cut would count has getting hit with zero hp?

[Randomness]

They should make a berserk skill where your HP get's cut by 1/6th and your attack get's multiplied by 10- Oh wait it's easy to dodge in this game.

They do have that in Monster Hunter and it works fine. (Well, technically, it's a trigger when you hit really low health, and is only good for double or triple damage... but it's still used by people who know everything an enemy can do)

[lostinseganet]

^This. And I think Forces should be the most flexible of the three. So it would go: Hunters are the best fighters, rangers are the best support, force can do either just not equally well.Forces are magic users, and they make things go boom. It would be interesting if the support magic such as increase or decrease attack, def, stamina were given preference to rangers. That would make a ranger stay closer to the melee fighters range. Also rangers would probably prefer to have these support abilities vs making things do boom. If the ranger were to be given the ability to heal more than one person, and the force was reduced to say reign "The ability to regain health over time" It would make a BIGG change in how both characters are viewed...I like this idea (^_^)

[Fenn777]

Forces are magic users, and they make things go boom. It would be interesting if the support magic such as increase or decrease attack, def, stamina were given preference to rangers. That would make a ranger stay closer to the melee fighters range. Also rangers would probably prefer to have these support abilities vs making things do boom. If the ranger were to be given the ability to heal more than one person, and the force was reduced to say reign "The ability to regain health over time" It would make a BIGG change in how both characters are viewed...I like this idea (^_^)

^And I like that one. I've always felt Rangers were meant to be support. It would certainly make Ranewm/newerals popular.

[Zorafim]

I never liked that forces were forced (haha, pun) to be a support class because they happen to be the only class that could support well. I don't know if dropping that stress on rangers is the way to go, since then the same thing would happen (plus then, how will I play my lovely cleric style gameplay?). The best thing seems like, if you want to support, each class should have a sub-tree that focuses on support. This way, you can focus on damage no matter what class you are, and you can support your group no matter what class you are.

Of course, this has downsides too. Going down a support sub tree will mean that you can't do pure awesome damage, and the fact that so many people prefer awesome damage means that supporters will be rare.

[•Col•]

IIRC i remember hearing about Hunters having a skill that attracts enemies.

That's what I was talking about.


War Cry: Attract attention of Enemies.

If you try to "balance" Rangers by making certain types of enemies target them... Then that's bad balancing.

[Mitz]

Something like random missing wouldn't be so bad if you would be able to have a gear set or something similar that would let you get rid of that, at the expense of other stats. I think that a big RPG element is compromising, especially stat wise.

What I really like is the on-the-fly weapon switching PSO had, really gave the game a stronger action element. For some reason it felt a lot slower in PSU but that might've just been me. What would really be nice is that you'd be able to switch out weapons mid-combo and in turn really overdrive them.

[lostinseganet]

Something like random missing wouldn't be so bad if you would be able to have a gear set or something similar that would let you get rid of that, at the expense of other stats. I think that a big RPG element is compromising, especially stat wise.

What I really like is the on-the-fly weapon switching PSO had, really gave the game a stronger action element. For some reason it felt a lot slower in PSU but that might've just been me. What would really be nice is that you'd be able to switch out weapons mid-combo and in turn really overdrive them.Switching weapons is a great mechanic that pso added. I feel that it should return to pso 2. I am thinking changing weapons mid combo should have restrictions. Robots should have no problem with any weapon no matter how big because they are robots. For humans it should be restricted to dual welding in terms of mid combos.

[Fenn777]

I never liked that forces were forced (haha, pun) to be a support class because they happen to be the only class that could support well. I don't know if dropping that stress on rangers is the way to go, since then the same thing would happen (plus then, how will I play my lovely cleric style gameplay?). The best thing seems like, if you want to support, each class should have a sub-tree that focuses on support. This way, you can focus on damage no matter what class you are, and you can support your group no matter what class you are.

Of course, this has downsides too. Going down a support sub tree will mean that you can't do pure awesome damage, and the fact that so many people prefer awesome damage means that supporters will be rare.

What if we compromised and said both Force and Rangers could support? Honestly, Hunters just don't make sense supporting anyway. If we allow two classes to support, then Hunters become the primary damaging class, but should be given some significant weaknesses, some of which are covered by Rangers and others by Force.

[Zorafim]

Hunters supporting not making sense? What about paladins, and genesis PS healers? Both were great meleers and supporters at once. In fact, newmans are generally only surpassed in healing power by characters who can't do anything but heal. There's gotta be a talent spec for people who want to play as this route.

[NoiseHERO]

Give me my redmage ninja and I don't care (Why I liked PSZ Hunewm but... I don't wanna be a newman)

[Fenn777]

Hunters supporting not making sense? What about paladins, and genesis PS healers? Both were great meleers and supporters at once. In fact, newmans are generally only surpassed in healing power by characters who can't do anything but heal. There's gotta be a talent spec for people who want to play as this route.

That is very true. So then I suggest that newmans be the "support" race which grants a little MST and PP boost to their class. That way both rangers and hunters can support if they wish. In general, though, I still found that in PSO hunters seemed to be the least support-oriented relative to the other classes.

And Casts can be the protectors, and Humans the attackers. This is starting to sound as cookie-cutter as most MMOs now, so I'll stress that these race differenes should be mimimal.

[Mitz]

You know why these things are so 'cookie-cutter'? Because they work. PSO had a different approach, PSU tried to shift that around and look where that ended up.

[Zyrusticae]

Uh, no.

Racial differentiation is not a huge part of RPGs, MMO or otherwise. Most racial differences end up being ancillary at best.

In any game where racial differences are hefty, it only results in homogenization, which is the exact opposite of what they should be shooting for.

[Selphea]

o_O

Rangers have always been great support in PSO/PSU. In PSO they had frozen shooter/snow queen for instant freezes and Spread Needle/S-Rank Needle with V501 for AoE paralyze. In PSU they had level 5 SE and knockdown on rifles, access to traps and arguably guns were the most reliable ways to spread SEs in general.

[Geistritter]

And Casts can be the protectors, and Humans the attackers.

Again, this is a terrible idea, not only because Humans are the most well-rounded class (and making them the most outright powerful would eliminate the need for the other two classes in everything but FOnewearl and FOnewm, basically), but because "protectors" simply don't work in this sort of game; eliminating the threat is almost always more important than preparing to take a hit from it, especially now that getting out of the way of attacks is even more viable and important than before, negating the need for a "protector" role all the more. A defense-oriented class or race does little more than slow things down in these sorts of games, as it is, which is why you rarely see them.

Even in the plodding paces of games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI, where a "tank" role is often more important, the defense-oriented races are rarely (if ever) not also among the highest when it comes to physical power, if not the highest, and the "balanced" races are never comparable to them in this regard, because they have other things to bring to the table. You're suggesting Casts be second-worst physically, and dead last magically, with nothing but more defense - when you should focus more on not getting hit at all than ever before, and accuracy is solely up to player ability - as a tradeoff.

Let's just say there would be balance adjustments in the works not long after launch.

[RemiusTA]

If you try to "balance" Rangers by making certain types of enemies target them... Then that's bad balancing.

how on earth is that bad balancing for enemies to approach you with a stragety?

It would be 10 THOUSAND strides forward if they finally programmed some different enemy types to actually scope out the party and attack the one with the least defense, the one who relies on long range, to jump the most powerful player, to focus on ONE player, kill the healer, ect ect.

At least, thats what USED to happen in RPG titles. Random targeting or "LOL ATTACK THE TANK AND IGNORE THE OTHER PEOPLE BLOWING YOU TO PIECES" is shitty point-and-click MMO territory.

What if this "provoke" skill was useful for something other than just tanking. Perhaps you could use it to actually save a life? Throw in some varied AI to make it interesting. If you provoke the wrong crowd of enemies, they ALL jump you relentlessly. Or, perhaps, provoking them causes them to all get an increase in attack strength and THEN jump you (and probably murder you), forcing you to rely on something else.


These idiots just don't think. They keep going for the easiest, fastest cookie cutter example that leads the market, no matter how bad it is. "TANKING" not only shows that your classes are probably unbalanced, it also shows your monsters and skills are probably also so shallow that the game probably has no CHOICE but to be reduced to one or two skills and OHKO matches during higher levels. When "HP AND DEFENSE" defines your entire class....there's an issue.


They do have that in Monster Hunter and it works fine. (Well, technically, it's a trigger when you hit really low health, and is only good for double or triple damage... but it's still used by people who know everything an enemy can do)

The dodge roll button in Monster Hunter also isn't the press to win button eitiher



Racial differentiation is not a huge part of RPGs, MMO or otherwise. Most racial differences end up being ancillary at best. AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Anyway, i think we should all just accept that this game is going to be just as in-depth as the latest RPGs that japan dishes out -- minimal at best. TONS of stuff on the outside to fluff it up, but once you start playing it slowly becomes obvious that no real thought was put into making this game play like an Action-RPG game instead of a Pseudo-Action game.

[•Col•]

I meant if they solely rely on the enemy targeting Rangers to balance it would be bad, brah.

With the fact that Hunters have the provoking skill and the fact that Rangers would still have the super mobility... Because let's say that there are enemies that actually do focus on Rangers.... Then Hunters/Forces could just obliterate them. But if you don't have enemies like that, Rangers still get to deal nice damage and greatly hinder enemy movement, all while staying at a safe distance. Either way, in both cases, the fact that there is a Ranger in your team = you killing things waaaay faster and easier.

[RemiusTA]

Just because one enemy type/race/instance has one behavior pattern doesn't mean they all have to. That's just lazy.

[yoshiblue]

Unless they had flinch resistance or were tanks themselves. Maybe have that hulk jump like some of the foes in the previous phantasy star games. Pfft, who needs walking up to them when they'er in your face in a few seconds. I get what your saying though but we can't let rangers have the easy life.

Very true. In Monster Hunter, People had to find that split second frame( thats if they didn't have the evade skill) to get away unharmed.

[•Col•]

Just because one enemy type/race/instance has one behavior pattern doesn't mean they all have to. That's just lazy.

Yeah, and as we all know, Sega NEVER takes the easy way out.....

[Fenn777]

Again, this is a terrible idea, not only because Humans are the most well-rounded class (and making them the most outright powerful would eliminate the need for the other two classes in everything but FOnewearl and FOnewm, basically), but because "protectors" simply don't work in this sort of game; eliminating the threat is almost always more important than preparing to take a hit from it, especially now that getting out of the way of attacks is even more viable and important than before, negating the need for a "protector" role all the more. A defense-oriented class or race does little more than slow things down in these sorts of games, as it is, which is why you rarely see them.

Even in the plodding paces of games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI, where a "tank" role is often more important, the defense-oriented races are rarely (if ever) not also among the highest when it comes to physical power, if not the highest, and the "balanced" races are never comparable to them in this regard, because they have other things to bring to the table. You're suggesting Casts be second-worst physically, and dead last magically, with nothing but more defense - when you should focus more on not getting hit at all than ever before, and accuracy is solely up to player ability - as a tradeoff.

Let's just say there would be balance adjustments in the works not long after launch.

Those are some really good points.

Okay, I probably didn't explain what I meant by "protectors." I didn't mean tank, more like a scout-guard type of role. If your main offense is targeting a certain enemy or group, the role of protectors is to slow down and whittle away at the other enemies, so your main attackers can focu on just their target. So instead of drawing the attention of ALL ENEMIES, the protectors look for enemies coming from the sides or behind your main attackers, slow them down, and weaken them so they are easier to finish off once your attackers down their initial targets.

So while they can't kill enemies as fast, they can engage and incapacitate them more effectively than humans. A human can't call out a high-hp target and eliminate it from the equation like a Cast. Casts play a battle of endurance, as opposed to Humans who try to kill before being killed, and Newmans who attempt a similar strategy but are more support-focused.

In general Hunters' high attack would make them good for clearing out groups of weak enemies and Rangers'...well, range would mean they're ideal for attacking dangerous single threats. Newman are still fairly capable of filling these roles but also throw in utility and support via techs.

As for Casts seemingly screwed, I'm not so sure they would be. In PSO they had the best ATP, DEF, and HP. This was balanced somewhat by their inability to use techs. We don't really know how techs will work in PSO2 (right?), but it seems to be either everyone gets them or just Force. In either of these cases, Casts will be severely broken if they get the best ATP and DEF. If we give Casts Def, Humans Atp, and Newmans Mst, then all three have a specialty. Since, like you said, Def usually comes secondary to damage in RPGs, then we can make the difference in Def between Casts and Hu/Newmans greater than the difference in Atp and Mst.

There are definitely flaws in the idea, maybe there are points I'm not seeing.

[zombiemoshpit84]

Those are some really good points.

Okay, I probably didn't explain what I meant by "protectors." I didn't mean tank, more like a scout-guard type of role. If your main offense is targeting a certain enemy or group, the role of protectors is to slow down and whittle away at the other enemies, so your main attackers can focu on just their target. So instead of drawing the attention of ALL ENEMIES, the protectors look for enemies coming from the sides or behind your main attackers, slow them down, and weaken them so they are easier to finish off once your attackers down their initial targets.

So while they can't kill enemies as fast, they can engage and incapacitate them more effectively than humans. A human can't call out a high-hp target and eliminate it from the equation like a Cast. Casts play a battle of endurance, as opposed to Humans who try to kill before being killed, and Newmans who attempt a similar strategy but are more support-focused.

In general Hunters' high attack would make them good for clearing out groups of weak enemies and Rangers'...well, range would mean they're ideal for attacking dangerous single threats. Newman are still fairly capable of filling these roles but also throw in utility and support via techs.

As for Casts seemingly screwed, I'm not so sure they would be. In PSO they had the best ATP, DEF, and HP. This was balanced somewhat by their inability to use techs. We don't really know how techs will work in PSO2 (right?), but it seems to be either everyone gets them or just Force. In either of these cases, Casts will be severely broken if they get the best ATP and DEF. If we give Casts Def, Humans Atp, and Newmans Mst, then all three have a specialty. Since, like you said, Def usually comes secondary to damage in RPGs, then we can make the difference in Def between Casts and Hu/Newmans greater than the difference in Atp and Mst.

There are definitely flaws in the idea, maybe there are points I'm not seeing.
if we take a hint from the way PSP2 is balanced. id say cast would have the best atp humans get def. there is no way in hell humans are going to be out damaging casts. only out lasting them.

[Fenn777]

if we take a hint from the way PSP2 is balanced. id say cast would have the best atp humans get def. there is no way in hell humans are going to be out damaging casts. only out lasting them.

Oh, well in that case just switch it.

[Zorafim]

Yeah, and as we all know, Sega NEVER takes the easy way out.....

They only had, what, six different types of dragons, with generally the same AI and animations, in PSU?

[•Col•]

Thinking back... Was there even a completely unique boss in PSU, that didn't have any clones of itself?

I am legitimately having a hard time thinking of one...

[yoshiblue]

De Rol Le?

[Zaix]

Dark Falz 1 is a De Rol Le reskin

[Anon_Fire]

De Ragan > Zoal Goug > Bil De Golus
Magas Maggahna > Adahna Degahnna
Dulk Fakis 1 > Mother Brain
Dulk Fakis 2 > Dark Falz 2
De Rol Le > Dark Falz 1

[voxie]

I really hope there are no lazy "re-skins" in PSO2... We seriously need something a lot more than the usual Dragon first boss and over-sized seaworm...

Yeah, in fact I'd be REALLY disappointed if, despite the amazing, re-kindled re-boot they've given PSO's character design, that the boss and enemy design doesn't show the same if not more creativity..... :(

[Dinosaur]

I really hope there are no lazy "re-skins" in PSO2... We seriously need something a lot more than the usual Dragon first boss and over-sized seaworm...

Yeah, in fact I'd be REALLY disappointed if, despite the amazing, re-kindled re-boot they've given PSO's character design, that the boss and enemy design doesn't show the same if not more creativity..... :(

The game is 50% with 3 bosses shown so far. I would estimate 4 more new ones towards release with at least 4 more areas, too.

[terrell707]

For a unique boss that didn't have a reskin of itself, if you count PSP2 bosses, then the second part of the final boss didn't have a reskin (except for its rare counterpart but idt that counts since it was on the same level/mission).

[•Col•]

There really isn't a completely unique PSU boss, is there.

That's so dumb.

EDIT: No, I don't count PSP2.

[terrell707]

There really isn't a completely unique PSU boss, is there.

That's so dumb.

EDIT: No, I don't count PSP2.

Ah then no there wasn't lol. The only new boss ever added to PSU was the worm almost 4 years ago when AOTI came out (was it 4 years? Maybe 3. lol). Other than that, reskin, reskin, reskin, reskin. Not even good reskins mind you. They acted exactly the same and had all the same attacks.

[NoiseHERO]

I really hope we have more than 8 bosses, then the rest just being reskins.

Or at least the reskins being creative enough where you don't notice or care...

[Macman]

Don't forget De Ragnus and Alterazgohg.

At least PSO ep2's boss reskins had slightly different attacks. (Gol Dragon's clones/shockwave, Barba Ray's under-raft attack and Pig Rays)

[Fenn777]

if we take a hint from the way PSP2 is balanced. id say cast would have the best atp humans get def. there is no way in hell humans are going to be out damaging casts. only out lasting them.

Yep you're probably right, you know more about it than me anyway.

Once last radical idea. What if Casts and Humans shared high ATP, so neither has a distinct advantage there, but Casts get better DEF and HP, while Humans get better MST and PP? And of course Newman get Great MST and PP, but lack ATP and DEF.

Like you said, a protector class just doesn'f fit PSO, and since ATP is arguably the most important stat, give it to both Humans and Cast. Then Casts get durability, and Humans get versatility.

[•Col•]

The thing about Barba Ray and the Gol Dragon, though.... Is that they are in the Virtual Reality missions... Which makes A LOT of freaking sense.

Hunters Guild. Take the information you have about the Dragon/De Rol Le, then make virtual copies of them to train your new recruits. Boom.

[yoshiblue]

How real is the pain though?!

[BIG OLAF]

The thing about Barba Ray and the Gol Dragon, though.... Is that they are in the Virtual Reality missions... Which makes A LOT of freaking sense.

Hunters Guild. Take the information you have about the Dragon/De Rol Le, then make virtual copies of them to train your new recruits. Boom.

Well, Colaya's just given SEGA an excuse to use for making 1000000 reskinned enemies and/or bosses. :wacko:

[yoshiblue]

Don't forget dream fights. Just boosted exp for the fights.

[•Col•]

Well, Colaya's just given SEGA an excuse to use for making 1000000 reskinned enemies and/or bosses. :wacko:

Oh god no... It was just a neat little observation I made about PSO...

The reskins just weren't bad in PSO... Of course, they even then they made the bosses fairly unique, unlike PSU...

[NoiseHERO]

Oh god no... It was just a neat little observation I made about PSO...

The reskins just weren't bad in PSO... Of course, they even then they made the bosses fairly unique, unlike PSU...

UNLIKE PSU............................................... ..........'S BOSSES you mean sfgadfgasfdg

[Macman]

How real is the pain though?!Oh god! How real are the rares you find in there?!

[terrell707]

Oh god no... It was just a neat little observation I made about PSO...

The reskins just weren't bad in PSO... Of course, they even then they made the bosses fairly unique, unlike PSU...

Well to be fair, I think they got their act together on PSP2 and PSP2i. All the reskinned bosses felt different and had different attacks. (Dark falz dios > yaorz or whatever her name was. The crab > big train machine boss thing. Orga spiritios > dol valveer. Dunga Dunga > the crab machine boss. Lol sorry I'm blanking on the names) but hopefully sega takes a page out of this book if they do decide to do reskins again and make the bosses unique.

[Zaix]

The alterazgoug had unique attacks compared to De Ragnus. He had the bird things that flew around him (Orbs in Japanese version). He also made those little energy guys that shot stuff at you.

[RemiusTA]

Casts - DEF

Newmans - Magic DEF

Humans - DEF and Magic DEF.


Problem solved.



ALL of psu's bosses sucked. Don't remember a single good one. The end of PSU's missions would have been more fun and exciting had they simply placed a large unfair amount of dangerous enemies in the room.

They were all either too easy/dumb, too cheap, or just flat out not fun. There wasn't a single fun machine boss. Mother Brain was annoying as fuck. And don't even get me STARTED on the god damn flying bastards. The only mildly fun boss to fight was Falkis form 2. But he was usually dead before he could get his moveset out anyway.



And i loved all of PSO's boss rekins because they were awesome. Barbra Ray was actually fun, and Gol Dragon battle was just f-in awesome.


In fact, i looked forward to every boss fight in PSO except for De Rol Le because he was a gay bitch.

[NoiseHERO]

Wut wait...robots should be god right?

[Fenn777]

Casts - DEF

Newmans - Magic DEF

Humans - DEF and Magic DEF.


Problem solved.



Wait how?

[Anon_Fire]

You guys can't decide what's best for the game, can you?

[yoshiblue]

Too many opposing views.

[Macman]

DEF's always been a stat that's been ignored anyway.

[NoiseHERO]

I say muscle strength > metal

But it hurts more to get hit when you're fleshy, where as robots shouldn't even feel pain...

So humans should get the ATK and CASTs should get the DEF

[Zorafim]

Lack of pain receptors doesn't equate to lack of damage. If a human and android are somehow made of similar strength materials, they'll both take the same number of hits before they're destroyed. Not to mention, being made of more durable materials often means being able to inflict more damage each swing, as part of damage calculation is how much the arm gives, and how much wieght is behind the arm.

You could make the argument that the power behind muscle is greater than the power behind the pistons powering the android, but the latest episode of Deadliest Warrior debunks that quite soundly. Humans could be made of stronger stuff during this game's generation though, due to genetic engineering or medical practices, and there's nothing saying that androids are made of strong stuff.

Actually... With all these variables, there's no clear winner in any stat. Wouldn't an android's faster processing power make them better at performing techs? Wouldn't a newman's greater speed mean for greater attack power? There's just no clear definition.

So yes. My vote goes for "race is cosmetic". Because I don't want newmans to be stuck with a rod, and I don't want humans to be inferior in every class.

[NoiseHERO]

Lack of pain receptors doesn't equate to lack of damage. If a human and android are somehow made of similar strength materials, they'll both take the same number of hits before they're destroyed. Not to mention, being made of more durable materials often means being able to inflict more damage each swing, as part of damage calculation is how much the arm gives, and how much wieght is behind the arm.

You could make the argument that the power behind muscle is greater than the power behind the pistons powering the android, but the latest episode of Deadliest Warrior debunks that quite soundly. Humans could be made of stronger stuff during this game's generation though, due to genetic engineering or medical practices, and there's nothing saying that androids are made of strong stuff.

Actually... With all these variables, there's no clear winner in any stat. Wouldn't an android's faster processing power make them better at performing techs? Wouldn't a newman's greater speed mean for greater attack power? There's just no clear definition.

So yes. My vote goes for "race is cosmetic". Because I don't want newmans to be stuck with a rod, and I don't want humans to be inferior in every class.

That's why I aid CASTS would be god, techs aren't magic, just electro science special effects, which means if anything CASTs should be the best at using them with their computing powers.

I still say no pain receptors = walk through anything till you're broken = more endurance = technically more defense. Then even more so since they LOOOOOVE to make them look like gundam tanks. It should obviously tops newman and humans squishy-ness + armor anyday.

[RemiusTA]

Wait how?

Well.

DEF = taking physical damage
Magic Def = taking magic damage.

Therefore:

No DEF = easy death by physical attacks
No Magic DEF = easy death by magical attacks

And therefore:

Casts = DEF = effective vs. all physical monsters
Newmans = M.DEF =effective vs. all Technique monsters
Humans = DEF+M.DEF = No clear weakness, no clear strength.

This eliminates the need for a "tank class", keeps the gameplay fresh, and lowers the possibility that one class will be completely superior in every situation.


....unless they pull a PSU, where DEF counts for shit, Magic Def counts for shit AND is COMPLETELY useless (because all enemy technics were ATK based =_=;;;), and elemental percentages some fucking how overlap absolutely every bit of damage you will take in the game.


That's why I aid CASTS would be god, techs aren't magic, just electro science special effects, which means if anything CASTs should be the best at using them with their computing powers.

I still say no pain receptors = walk through anything till you're broken = more endurance = technically more defense. Then even more so since they LOOOOOVE to make them look like gundam tanks. It should obviously tops newman and humans squishy-ness + armor anyday.


Casts should, technically, be much stronger AND more durable than Humans. They should probably be more accurate as well -- otherwise what the fuck is the point of creating a machine to help fight with you? For balance purposes though, either they need to 1) be less agile or 2) be less accurate. Because having a Human be stronger or more durable than a Machine is just asinine.


But noooooooooooooo, a few stupid dipshits at sega came up with the idea that casts can somehow use Techniques now. So yeah, they're probably going to just be walking Jesus bots now. But hey, someone somewhere for some reason decided a magician machine would be a good idea. Now, we can deal with the ridiculous balance issues. Now that Casts can somehow utulize the same energy used in Techniques, there TECHNICALLY is absolutely no reason for them to be inferior to any class.


I'd have no problem with casts being stronger, more accurate and more durable than Humans/Newmans if they 1) couldn't use techniques and 2) couldn't be affected by most techniques. Like Resta, because a machine regenerating itself makes no sense. It would cause them to be like walking destruction machines, except for the fact that....well, they need maintenance. It would somewhat force them to not be as reckless if healing suddenly was much more difficult to come by.

[Zorafim]

The, erm, first playable androids were able to use techs. One was your healer.

[Kirin^^]

You guys are thinking WAAY too much about a hack n slash game

[NoiseHERO]

But still! TECHS AREN'T MAGIC D: THEY AREN'T NATURAL PHENOMENA CREATED FROM ELF BLOOD AND RAINBOWS. D8

They're more like computers and nano transers to turn math problems into dinosaurs made out of ice IMPLANTED IN OUR BRAINS BY THE SPACE NAZI GOVERMENT AND MOTHER BRAIN BACK IN THE YEAR 24XX!

So yeah we should all be reploids, take out humans and newmans because they have obsolete functions.

@ kirin: NOT ME! YOU JUST DON'T HAVE AN IMAGINATION, WHICH I WHY YOU'RE SPENDING YOUR FREE TIME ON TROLLING, IN ACTUALITY THIS I FUN.

[Zorafim]

Power leotards are NEVER obsolete!

[NoiseHERO]

Reploids in power leotards...

Your mind?

Blown.

[Kirin^^]

actually i'm playing some psp2 and casually refreshing this board :)

[RemiusTA]

i vote for the next race to be raptor people

[Zyrusticae]

RAPTOR PEOPLE. YES.

This gets my vote.

(Even though I know it will never happen because one race being seriously different from human phylogeny is already too much for Sega to handle).

[NoiseHERO]

I was gonna jump on the raptor wagon... But now I see raptors aren't that cool anymore...

The next race should be bears.

[Zorafim]

Raptor people?

http://www.pscave.com/fanart/ps/other/raja.jpg

Bear people?

http://ultema.net/phantasy/prew.gif

My dear fellow posters, you are quite late to the show! We've had those all along!

[Cast Soldier]

Well.
DEF = taking physical damage
Magic Def = taking magic damage.

Therefore:

No DEF = easy death by physical attacks
No Magic DEF = easy death by magical attacks

And therefore:

Casts = DEF = effective vs. all physical monsters
Newmans = M.DEF =effective vs. all Technique monsters
Humans = DEF+M.DEF = No clear weakness, no clear strength.

This eliminates the need for a "tank class", keeps the gameplay fresh, and lowers the possibility that one class will be completely superior in every situation.

....unless they pull a PSU, where DEF counts for shit, Magic Def counts for shit AND is COMPLETELY useless (because all enemy technics were ATK based =_=;;;), and elemental percentages some fucking how overlap absolutely every bit of damage you will take in the game.

Casts should, technically, be much stronger AND more durable than Humans. They should probably be more accurate as well -- otherwise what the fuck is the point of creating a machine to help fight with you? For balance purposes though, either they need to 1) be less agile or 2) be less accurate. Because having a Human be stronger or more durable than a Machine is just asinine.

But noooooooooooooo, a few stupid dipshits at sega came up with the idea that casts can somehow use Techniques now. So yeah, they're probably going to just be walking Jesus bots now. But hey, someone somewhere for some reason decided a magician machine would be a good idea. Now, we can deal with the ridiculous balance issues. Now that Casts can somehow utulize the same energy used in Techniques, there TECHNICALLY is absolutely no reason for them to be inferior to any class.

I'd have no problem with casts being stronger, more accurate and more durable than Humans/Newmans if they 1) couldn't use techniques and 2) couldn't be affected by most techniques. Like Resta, because a machine regenerating itself makes no sense. It would cause them to be like walking destruction machines, except for the fact that....well, they need maintenance. It would somewhat force them to not be as reckless if healing suddenly was much more difficult to come by.

I agree with RemiusTA, I have some ideas that can I think can balance things. I see this game as a perfect blend of PSO & PSU(I hope). The first thing
Race Abilities
1. No race should have a Auto-regen PP except Newmans. Every race should get a set amount of PP with Normal hits.
Humans 15 PP
Newmans 10 PP(plus Auto-regen PP)
Beasts 10 PP(if they put them in the game, I'll put ??)
Casts 5 PP
2. Casts get HP Auto-Regen
3. The way each race use Techniques(Animations will be slow or fast).
Newmans will do all Techs fast(Basic,Novice,Advance)
Humans will do Advance slow, the other 2 fast
Beasts(?) will do Basic fast, the other 2 slow
Casts will do all 3 slow
4. Status ailments
Newmans will have low status resistance
Humans will have average status resistance
Beasts will have high status resistance
Casts will have their own status ailments like Short-Circuit(the Cast goes into a cunfused like state while losing HP), Shock(other races lose some HP an flinch. Cast lose moderate HP first go into a paralyzed state than continue to lose HP), and Over-heat(the Cast lose a moderate HP that go into a burn state than continue to lose HP. They lose the ability to do PA/Techs, if it is not taken care of the Cast goes into a stun state until the Cast coolsdown)
5. Element Resistance
Newmans have high element resistance
Humans have average element resistance
Beasts(?) have low element resistance
Casts have NO element resistance
Class Abilites
The only thing I would change is the way each class use Techs
Forces can use all levels of to the max
Rangers can only use Basic & Novice and at only half power, they can't use J/Z
Hunters can only use Basic & Novice and at only half power, they can't use S/D
Gender Difference
Male & Females should just have slight stat differences in their race
MAGS
Ok. This is more how I want them to work. They will have 4 stats, you feed them anything to raise these stats. Depending on what you feed them/stat you raise their appearance changes. When the Mag gains PBG at every 25% something happens. At 25% you get a small stat boost or heal, if you die it may revive you(PBG empties). At 50% you get a large stat boost or heal, if you die it may revive you(PBG empties). At 75% you may get revived if you die, but at this point you get the PB(since the Mirage Blast was basically Photon Blast all of these are included). Depending on what you feed it determinds which ones you have. If you die you lose the PB until you build the PBG back up and the PBG won't go up until you use the PB. At 100% you get the small bonuses, you may get revived if you die. At full you get race specific moves
Cast Mags turn into and become their SUV Weapons
Beasts & their Mags fuse to make the Nanoblasts
Humans & their Mags team-up to do unlimited enhanced PAs for a set time
Newmans & their Mags team-up to do unlimited enhanced Techs for a set time
Oh Yeah. That Step/Dive Roll/Teleport dogde will cost 30 PP for each use

[NoiseHERO]

Bear people?

http://ultema.net/phantasy/prew.gif

My dear fellow posters, you are quite late to the show! We've had those all along!

I thought about this race... But I don't think he's fuzzy enough.

The beak can stay though.

[Kirin^^]

Since when do bears have beaks?

[Zorafim]

Since 1987.

[RemiusTA]

Raptor people?

http://www.pscave.com/fanart/ps/other/raja.jpg




That is not a raptor person.

That is an impostor.