The real issue.....

[Ecchi]

So as far as I have gathered reading this, watching that etc. & the game looks awesome imo But my real concern is the AI. The reason I got bored of the other PS games was because of how boring mobs attack patterns were it was always the same! Hopefully they get a little more creative with that as well.

Thoughts?

[dooby613]

No I think most of the enemies in ep4 had a greater variety and were fine but I can see where you are coming from. I find photon chairs to be a far more serious subject.

[NoiseHERO]

^

Yeah, I also hope photon chairs don't return.

On topic: I find that the enemies are kind of dull as well... it's one thing that the players are already overpowering them. But it's kinda like they just stand there or walk slowly while the party just stampedes through them.

THE HOSTILES AREN'T VERY HOSTILE.

At least not for flying anime demon standards.


I hope in later parts of the game I'll be able to run through that destroyed city at night and find malcfunctioning cyborgs that teleport behind you and spin kick your ass (literally) because they know kung-fu and ballet.

[Cast Soldier]

The only enemy I think needs work is the purple monkey. I have only seen it do one move. It picks up and throws a rock about 15-20 feet infront of it.

If you are right next to it, the rock flies over you. It your infront of it alittle to the right or left of the rock falls next to you. If your 16-21 feet away the rock lands infront of you.

The purple monkey should do different throws depending where you are. If your right next to it, it should slam the rock down on you. If your infront of it alittle to the right or left, when it throws the rock it should curve the rock to the right or left to hit you. If your out of its range, it should do a power throw(maybe jump up and its arms go back to throw with more force) to cover the distance.

The other enemies just need to be more aggressive, which will probably happen.

[yoshiblue]

Give it some Congalala moves!

[Cast Soldier]

Give it some Congalala moves!

No Blangonga moves!!, or better yet Rajang moves!!!

[yoshiblue]

Will it go super saiyan?

[Cast Soldier]

Will it go super saiyan?

I hope so.

[Zorafim]

Uhg, PSU's AI... They don't do much besides stand there, do they? They could use a bit more work in that department, I suppose.

[sugarFO]

I dunno. I like PSO because you fight waves of monsters and you don't have to think too hard to destroy them besides things like gifoie if they charge or elemental weaknesses. If anyone's played the Alice games you face off with different types of enemies and it can be a pain to have to switch weapons and switch playstyle many times just to kill one particular monster efficiently (i.e. teapot monsters need to be shot with a gun, then use the dagger on their eye, while other monsters with different combat setups swarm you). There needs to be a balance because having too complicated of AI can disrupt the "flow" of missions and such IMO. I liked Mass Effect's AI.

[amtalx]

In a game like PSO2, it's more important to have variation in the AI routines rather than complexity. The online variety of PS games have always been loot grinders at their core, and that type of game doesn't lend itself well to adaptive AI. It's more about pattern recognition and rote execution. That said, PSU's routines generally ran straight at the player or simply would start attacking in place.

[RemiusTA]

Agreed. One or two enemies (maybe higher-ranking humanoid enemies, and other things like the Sinow Beats, Delsabers, ect) should have more complex AI since you're probably fighting more intelligent lifeforms.

But i think more varied and diverse AI works just as well. If you think about the players themselves, having someone wack at you with a sword, shoot you from afar with a rifle, and throw charged fireballs at you all day...you're gonna have a pretty rough time.

Savage Wolves in PSO always orbited around you and flanked you from a blindspot. If you killed their leader, they would all get weaker. They were pretty useless enemies by themselves, but if you were by some chance preoccupied with a more direct threat, the chance of being attacked by them was alot higher. You know, stuff like that.

I like the Savage Wolves in PSO2 because they seem to be much more agile and capable. And I also like the rock throwing ability of the boomba type enemies (although it's far too inaccurate and slow to hit anybody even walking)

Enemy design isn't really what bothers me in this game, it looks good so far, eons better than PSU/PSP2 thanks to weakspots and strategies for different enemies. The issue is going to be how they balance the stats (def, magic def, tech, ranged, melee) and move properties for the PLAYER to determine how effective each approach will be against them. Because if they don't add up, enemy AI won't mean shit because nothing they do will be any threat / too cheap against us.

[SuperChoco]

Uhg, PSU's AI... They don't do much besides stand there, do they? They could use a bit more work in that department, I suppose.

I disagree with the case of one enemy, the Jarba.

It could right hook you.
Use Megid.
Use Dambarta.
Use Retier.
Use Resta.

It was always an enemy that was a pain to kill and had way more variance and ability to kill you than most other enemies in the game or PSO for that matter.

You are correct with the other enemies though, although the only reason that PSU was so easy was that you could buy Scape Dolls. Just remove them and nerf everyone slightly and there you go, what I think could work in PSO2.


Enemy design isn't really what bothers me in this game, it looks good so far, eons better than PSU/PSP2 thanks to weakspots and strategies for different enemies. The issue is going to be how they balance the stats (def, magic def, tech, ranged, melee) and move properties for the PLAYER to determine how effective each approach will be against them. Because if they don't add up, enemy AI won't mean shit because nothing they do will be any threat / too cheap against us.

Essentially This.

[Cast Soldier]

Agreed. One or two enemies (maybe higher-ranking humanoid enemies, and other things like the Sinow Beats, Delsabers, ect) should have more complex AI since you're probably fighting more intelligent lifeforms.

But i think more varied and diverse AI works just as well. If you think about the players themselves, having someone wack at you with a sword, shoot you from afar with a rifle, and throw charged fireballs at you all day...you're gonna have a pretty rough time.

Savage Wolves in PSO always orbited around you and flanked you from a blindspot. If you killed their leader, they would all get weaker. They were pretty useless enemies by themselves, but if you were by some chance preoccupied with a more direct threat, the chance of being attacked by them was alot higher. You know, stuff like that.

I like the Savage Wolves in PSO2 because they seem to be much more agile and capable. And I also like the rock throwing ability of the boomba type enemies (although it's far too inaccurate and slow to hit anybody even walking)

Enemy design isn't really what bothers me in this game, it looks good so far, eons better than PSU/PSP2 thanks to weakspots and strategies for different enemies. The issue is going to be how they balance the stats (def, magic def, tech, ranged, melee) and move properties for the PLAYER to determine how effective each approach will be against them. Because if they don't add up, enemy AI won't mean shit because nothing they do will be any threat / too cheap against us.

I agree with this. I think they need more rock throw variations.

[SolRiver]

I want enemies that force the player to work for their information in defeating them.

Example:
seabed PSO, completely invisible enemies that you had to fight near water/mirror to have much chance at all. Not just that, they were DANGEROUS, as in they CAN kill you even in those OP resta spam.

How could I forget delbitter... the big evil angry doggy/horsey thing. If an enemy can't force player to retreat or rethink combat tactic/strategy, it is nothing but a punching bag.

I would rather have a constant and predictable AI that make you work over an "intelligent AI" that is a punching bag. Megaman x boss battle was fun because it was hard to avoid those predicted patterns (and you have to learn the pattern too), not because boss was "intelligent".

[Ecchi]

As long as its not bland thats my only concern.....Please thats all I ask for is variety!!!

[Selphea]

Everything on PSO was a punching bag =x Spread/S-Rank Demon's Needle the trash, Frozen Shooter + Mechgun the stuff that isn't trash and Vivienne/Umbrella the lizards = win.

[SolRiver]

Everything on PSO was a punching bag =x Spread/S-Rank Demon's Needle the trash, Frozen Shooter + Mechgun the stuff that isn't trash and Vivienne/Umbrella the lizards = win.

Except you actually had to change to a different spread needle in the later episodes. (for your different 300% lol) /sarcasm

In PSU, you didn't even need to change weapon if you don't feel like it.

Majority of the PSO were indeed punching bags. I definitely got tired of all stages except seabed (yet, no one want to go to seabed so often because the rate of death vs exp were low). Heck, that's why I quit it so many years ago.

[Selphea]

IIRC, whatever item Seabed dropped, there was an Ep4 item that did the same thing, except better and with a higher droprate and chance of hit% to boot =x

[Col_Roy_Mustang]

I think the AI Intelligence for the Phantasy Franchise is, to be honest is 5 and kind of failing.
Why.
Mobs move around, doesn't even has a sense of a attk plan, no intel at all!
I think this franchise should be bought by the boys who developed L4D and Dead Island.
They know how to do it. How to make AI's tougher and smarter. Giving us hard times to defeat them and pissing our pants off too while we're at it

This is how games are suppose to be made. If I were to be a developer and I wanted to make this game alot better, I would start off by reditting the Stats system, equal power is the game, no one is OP and then re code the AI to make them smarter, and tougher. (but those are dreams beyond one that can imagine)

If so that if this franchise that we will facing AI that is well intelligent and give us runs for our health. By the time that happens Phantasy Star will be number 3 on my list.
If so you all dont know my list of games that have Smart AI's

1. Battle Field 3
2. Dead Island
3. Phantasy Star Franchise
4. Left 4 Dead 1 and 2

End with that, If Sega does not change this system that they have now for the Phantasy franchise....why make it at all.
and why we, gamers have to complain about this.

[yoshiblue]

Some of the AI for some of the Halo games are good too.

[NoiseHERO]

Making good AI is hard. D:

Hard costs time, time is money. ]:

[kyuuketsuki]

I think this franchise should be bought by the boys who developed L4D and Dead Island.
They know how to do it. How to make AI's tougher and smarter. Giving us hard times to defeat them and pissing our pants off too while we're at it.
Lol no. I don't want to play L4D or Dead Island. I want to play Phantasy Star Online 2. Different game, different goals.

This is how games are suppose to be made. If I were to be a developer and I wanted to make this game alot better, I would start off by reditting the Stats system, equal power is the game, no one is OP and then re code the AI to make them smarter, and tougher. (but those are dreams beyond one that can imagine)
Not to repeat myself, but... Lol no. Again, you want to turn PSO2 into a different kind of game. If you don't like games with stats and that don't revolve around "smart" AI, go play something else. The PSO franchise has never been for you.

If so you all dont know my list of games that have Smart AI's

1. Battle Field 3
2. Dead Island
3. Phantasy Star Franchise
4. Left 4 Dead 1 and 2

... Wha, what? First you're complaining that the AI sucks, now you're ranking the PSO franchise as having smarter AI than the "smart" AI you were lauding in L4D? Are you high?

End with that, If Sega does not change this system that they have now for the Phantasy franchise....why make it at all.
Because not everyone wants to play freaking L4D with a PSO reskin.

and why we, gamers have to complain about this.
Kindly don't group yourself with anyone else and pretend you're somehow brethren in the "gamer community," thanks.

Disclaimer: I am not saying enemies should follow a make-a-bee-line-for-the-player AI routine in PSO2. But it really has nothing to do with making some kind of super-advanced AI (which L4D and whatever else do not have anyway, sorry to burst your bubble) that can out-think players. They just need to mix it up and make interesting enemies with interesting abilities to keep players on their toes.

[Col_Roy_Mustang]

I'm not saying that I am affiliated with any group.
I'm just expressing my concerns that might be brought by people who are affiliated with the group that you are talking about


What people might expect is AI to think 1 step ahead of us, not just mopping around.
We need change, change that make us feel ,what's that American term...
"Keep us on the edge of our seat."

[Ecchi]

OHHHH another thing, No more reskins of something else with the same attack patterns. That shit erked the hell out of me in PSU and I loved the game so much for what it was.

I coulda played that for so many more years then I did if it hadn't been for just the excessive lack of design and idea's put into it which was clearly not much! Don't fail in that department again please ;(

[Macman]

OHHHH another thing, No more reskins of something else with the same attack patterns. That shit erked the hell out of me in PSU and I loved the game so much for what it was.That's been around since PSOv1.

[NoiseHERO]

That's been around since PSOv1.

So has a lot of annoying things people want taken out.

But we already know there's gonna be 3-5 reskins per monster and boss as usual. :\

[Fenn777]

The AI doesn't have to be brilliant to fit the game; it just has to make players change their strategy every once in a while. For example, in Forest 1 in PSO, Boomas approached you strait on. meanwhile, the Wolves circles you and attacked from behind. At lower levels, you had to be careful not to get surrounded while going for the Boomas.

That's a very simple example. Really, what the enemies need is a diverse range of attacks that they emply in certain situations. It's up to the player to learn through experience what actions incite what reactions from the enemies and take advantage of them.

[RemiusTA]

PSO had a very nice variety of varied AI enemies. We probably just don't remember them because after playing the game so long nothing is dangerous to any of us. Except for Sinow Zoas.


Yeah, alot of the "shit my pants" AI from PSO came from the fact that there were not too many huge enemies in that game. Hildebears, Garnz, Dark Beldra, Chaos Bringer, all of them were enemies that were able to kill you, fast , and required some maneuvering to attack correctly. This happened in PSU, but i dont think anyone cared as much because the game was chocked full of large enemies that seemed to be able to hit you no matter what you did. Or attacked without enough reaction time to avoid being hit.

As such? The only enemies i were genuinely afraid of in PSU were the fuckers who shot Super Foie. (the ATP based one that forces were supposed to be able to somewhat tank, but couldn't and instead wrecked them in one hit.)

Or dambarta.

Or Megid. Although that stopped being scary after PSP1 when Megid sucked.

[BIG OLAF]

Never understood why Megid only had Infection, and not Incapacitate, in PSP2/i. Threw me for a loop, I tell you what.

[Col_Roy_Mustang]

I love this game the most. but I think sonic should put in more monsters in each stage to actually literally surround us. I mean....
I think Sonic can do this a lot better, but I think they are just holding back.
But the question is...
"What are they holding back?"
Why not do where no developers had done before?

[yoshiblue]

Real time tag team attacks like I suggested before? Its been done before though.

Why not a gun that shots a shot that will teleport people to reach certain areas and allow hunters to get in the enemy's faces in a blink of an eye?

[Col_Roy_Mustang]

Real time tag team attacks like I suggested before? Its been done before though.

Why not a gun that shots a shot that will teleport people to reach certain areas and allow hunters to get in the enemy's faces in a blink of an eye?

PORTAL!!!!
xDDD
I really now want sonic to put in a deportation gun now.
:3

[RemiusTA]

Never understood why Megid only had Infection, and not Incapacitate, in PSP2/i. Threw me for a loop, I tell you what.

Furthermore i couldn't understand why Infection existed.


I personally liked Megid better when it didn't do damage, and only existed for the purpose of a status effect.

But that was back when Light and Dark wern't really elements to be used in combat. They were more like "special" elements. The Only light-elemental attacks in the whole game i believe were Mag Blasts and Grants.

I hope it goes back to that setup, where Light is the high-tier "damage" element, and Dark is the "status" or just plain "youre dead" element.

[Keilyn]

They wont work on a strong AI because the game is geared towards everyone, so they will tone it down in a way that anyone...even a child can own up to everything. It has its advantages, and I would support it...but age has me think otherwise.

Its nice when you are 15 - 20 years old and can say "oh its nice we can all play"

but when one is 30+ years and wants something more serious and stronger, more intelligent enemies....its good to look elsewhere.

Its going to be the same thing of hunting equipment, getting power and just killing everything because it really is a beat-em up action game. That's how the series is...and they won't make it so that team emphasis exists....unless of course they do what SEGA failed to do in PSU...

which was to bring back some of the party based events. Endless Nightmare was always my favorite...Along with going through the East and West Towers.

[Older Brother]

Bah, if they make the enemies to quick, just bring a bigger shotgun.



...or a cannon with shot! ... ooo....

[kyuuketsuki]

Why not do where no developers had done before?
Because there are reasons developers don't do certain things, and often do others. Some things just don't work, and other things work very well.

And would people stop pretending that AI development has something to do with making the game accessible to children or it costing too much or other nonsense, plzkthx.

[yoshiblue]

If that,s the case I would have made a casual mode.

[NoiseHERO]

dog motion capture on the wolves!

[yoshiblue]

Why not actual wolfs in action? Just keep it on the down low so the animal activists don't start pouting.

[Zyrusticae]

Motion capture does not work that way, sorry. :p

[yoshiblue]

Well I figure you could suit up the wolf, place a rabbit on the floor and let the fireworks fly. Get the footage and put in a fight for your life dog attacking throat animation.

[RemiusTA]

Motion capture does not work that way, sorry. :p

If they can rig the wolf...then yeah, it can work that way.

You just have to rig the wolf. It's probably more effective to just animate by visual references though, since dogs aren't humans.

[Zyrusticae]

Well, see, humans work because you can easily get them to do the motions you require.

Animals? Well, some things are probably easier than others, but things like stalking animations would require that they actually be in their natural habitat, or at least the harming of several real animals (which I'm pretty sure is against the law).

So, yeah, for non-humans? Proooobably better to do it by hand...

[Zarode]

Improving the AI would work by adding something other than: "If in sight range, move forward. If in attack range, swipe."

[Mitz]

Problem with PSO wasn't that some mobs acted retarded, it's that even in Ultimate they'd act just as retarded as in normal.

[Zorafim]

They did? I was too busy dodging bullet speed demon boomas between shots of megid and rapid fire bazooka arms to notice.

I'd much rather have PSO level stupidity than PSU level randomness. While fighting enemies in melee, you're best off just spamming the attack button, since most enemies just stood still most of the time. And even if you played it safe, there's not much in the way of knowing what the enemies were going to do in time to react.
Ah, I should have rolled a gunner in that game...

[RemiusTA]

Ultimate Forest was easier the moment I started equipping higher accuracy weapons.

but those fucking Ob Lilies...

[Macman]

Good thing Ob Lillies didn't laugh like Poison Lillies did when they hit you with their spit.

[yoshiblue]

Seen one laugh when it hit its own ally. Didn't hurt it but it still reg'ed as a hit. Now I sound silly.

[Macman]

Not sure if that's possible, even if you confuse an Ob Lily, the Megid just passes through other monsters.

[yoshiblue]

Meh I was running from 3 or four guli sharks and a poison lily took a shot and it dissappered within the crowd of sharks and the lily laughed but it missed me.

[zombiemoshpit84]

i just want enemies to NOT run away from me all the time... the amount of time iv spent chasing enemies around in pso psu and psp is unreasonable. how meny hours have you spent chasing dark falz around in circles?

[yoshiblue]

In psp I spent more time running from Helga and her minions.

Falz was meh cus I had a lv 120 on the team.

[RemiusTA]

That was the absolute worst part. The bitches would laugh after they poisoned/killed you.

[•Col•]

That was the absolute worst part. The bitches would laugh after they poisoned/killed you.

I HATE that laugh.

Never fails to piss me off.

[NoiseHERO]

i just want enemies to NOT run away from me all the time... the amount of time iv spent chasing enemies around in pso psu and psp is unreasonable. how meny hours have you spent chasing dark falz around in circles?

I actually agree with this, this might be sega game... but hunter's/guardians/arks aren't exactly sega animals when it comes to chasing annoying enemie that like to run away/bosses that like to jump across the room.

Though I do like it when ragan does it because it looks cool, plus he just runs back in place anyway.

[Macman]

How about them Vandas backstepping away from you all the time?

[NoiseHERO]

Those midget ones in the relic sites were the absolute fucking worse...

Especially for someone like me who likes to use short ranges weapons.

[Zorafim]

Those guys made me glad I specialized in spears. It was just about the right length to get in a few stabs if you checked their foot work well, while it nearly impossible with my daggers.

Still not as bad as worms though. Run up to them, and you're greeted by either a strength reducing, knockdowning, 360* smack to the face, or watching helplessly as they gain invincibility frames while digging, where they can't be damaged. Hunters were obviously not kept in mind when these guys were designed. The only way to deal with them is having a weapon that did a knockaround move on the first hit, or by resorting to ranged tactics. And even with knockarounds, they gain immunity the instant they do any sort of attack besides foie.

...

I'm not bitter!

[RemiusTA]

I forgot those shitty worm enemies. Man, i hated so many enemies in PSU.

They were like the Slimes, except not nearly as cool, and somehow even more annoying to encounter.

[NoiseHERO]

I remember in some random caves mention I decided to be smart and solo on the hardest difficulty..

I crossed a bridge to a small area and just saw like 6 worms, and waited for their spin attack to stun lock me to death.

[Selphea]

o_O

Hunters have Jabroga, Retsuzan Souhi-jin, Chikki, Majarra, Tornado Dance, Shusou Retsuzan-ga... it's not like they're very limited in options for catching kiting enemies

[NoiseHERO]

This was before AOI's overpowered PAs came out though.

Otherwise I think worms got nerfed in general.

[lostinseganet]

the real killer will be world servers will they be connected!?

[Zorafim]

Jabroga,

Didn't exist yet.


Retsuzan Souhi-jin,

Didn't exist yet.


Chikki,

Didn't exist yet.


Majarra,

Didn't exist yet.


Tornado Dance,

Only one class could use doublesabers.


Shusou Retsuzan-ga...

Didn't exist until PC servers went down... Does it even exist now?


it's not like they're very limited in options for catching kiting enemies

Oh, are we still talking about those fleas? I thought we were talking about worms. Carry on then.

[RemiusTA]

Chikki was so ridiculous, man. Not only was it absolutely OP, it leveled fast as hell because of all the hits and unlimited targets.

I can't say it wasn't fun though. I remember some missions where 4/6 of us would just equip some A-rank slicers and go CRAZY on missions with that skill.

[Zorafim]

Slicers: Quick, ranged, weak enemies designed to attack every enemy on screen.

How best to exemplify this? Create a slow, powerful attack that can be everywhere at once! Genius!

[chaos-shadow]

Flying enemies in general I hate in PSU. I'm hoping the fact there is jump function now, it won't be so bad.

Things like Shagreece!
"Let me do these annoying circles around you while you are trying to hit me"
"Now let me fly up into the sky. For what feels like an eternity".

D:

[yoshiblue]

Worse if you kick off them to reach higher heights.