Finding Skills/Techs already leveled

[PSW4L]

It looks like this game is going to have this too. This is one of the main reasons I didn't like the portable game. Leveling up stuff is a big part of what's fun to me in PSU so this is bad news for me. I'm just wondering if other people feel the same?

[Zorafim]

Nope! I've heard far less complaints about having to find skill disks than having to level them up. Mainly, because having to level up a skill means spending useless hours doing pointless runs to do nothing but level up skills, or suffer ridicule and lowered performance while using them in runs. Heck, this was the reason why I never switched from Fortefighter. I also noticed that it was easier to cap a class than it was to get their abilities up to snuff, especially with lv50 skills.

I like the idea of leveling up the skills, and with a rebalance it might work. But I'd rather use the "find disk" system than the level up system until that happens.

[Razelis]

I fully agree with OP! I loved leveling Skills on PSU and grinding them (yes I loved grinding them)

It gave me a feeling im always progressing and getting better.

On the other hand, PSPo2 = Lvl 80 Force with Rank 10 techs... FUN... no

This is an RPG, leveling is part of it, people just like finding discs cause thats how PSO was and anything PSOish is automatically good for them ( > . >

Seeing techers walk around in PSU with 41+ techs really made you think they were good techers that put alot of effort and work to be so good in the game, and not just lucky at finding discs, And having 41+ techs/skills on PSU made you feel proud about it

Just my opinion about it.

[NoiseHERO]

I'd prefer leveling them

If there wasn't like 20-50 freakings levels...

Maybe like 3-5 levels per skill/tech.

/too much KH:BBS

[RemiusTA]

It looks like this game is going to have this too. This is one of the main reasons I didn't like the portable game. Leveling up stuff is a big part of what's fun to me in PSU so this is bad news for me. I'm just wondering if other people feel the same?


It's gonna be a 50/50 kind of thing. I personally LOATHE anything that forces me to spend time to level it up on a game like this.


Why? Because it really is no better. If the disks are drop/trade quests only, then it makes them much more accessable, and at the same time doesn't hinder you during battle.


It may have worked for Melee characters, but for Rangers and Forces, skill leveling was absolutely terrible.

[chaos-shadow]

I'm also one of those people who enjoy the hard work over chance drop.
The entire reason I love RPG's so much is because I'm not afraid of grinding, and the satisfaction from putting in that time.

[Selphea]

Megid 30 was much, much harder to get on PSO than grinding Megid 50 on PSU =x

[NoiseHERO]

I'm not afraid of grinding, and the satisfaction from putting in that time.

Whoa whoa WHOA

I like to be rewarded and feel proud for my time and effort too.

But monotonously pushing one button for months as a second job should never be the process!

UNLESS THIS GAME IS SECRETLY MADE BY KOREANS.

[Cast Soldier]

Why can't it be both?? If you want to grind just buy the low level techs from the store. When you find the high level techs from enemy drops or boxes just sell them for money or trade them to people who don't want to grind.


Megid 30 was much, much harder to get on PSO than grinding Megid 50 on PSU =x

Then I must be extremely lucky, I find 30s alot(of all techs) OR its a bad joke. I'm a Hucast so they just give them to me because I can't use them.

[Witchblade56]

Frankly I like the idea of finding appropriate level skills and techs. It's a throw back to the original PSO. I had to make a pinkall character just to farm all the Lv.30 tech disks. I made a redria character to farm my smokin plate and a skylye to farm the blade type weapons. In subsequent installments they did away with section IDs. That was fine for me.

What about this: to satisfy both tastes they make the tech disks a droppable level appropriate item. Then with continued use you can increase the spells dmg modifier over time? So something noticeable for us hardcore players but not game breaking. Additionally the boost would say be no more than a 2-3% increase in base dmg and criticals. This wouldnt make it impossible for casual gamers to play because their base dmg would be comparable to a hardcore players dmg output. Same thing for skill disks and as an added bonus to the diehards the animations change in some way at the peak of the technique/skill evolution.

Just a random thought.

[Macman]

Then I must be extremely lucky, I find 30s alot(of all techs) OR its a bad joke. I'm a Hucast so they just give them to me because I can't use them.Level 30 attack tech disks were comparable in rarity to many 12* weapons.
Level 30 support (SDJZ Resta) were a lot more common, though.

[Fenn777]

I don't care to much how we get techs as much as how they work endgame. I'd like to see it work so that you can't get every tech to max level--it adds more variety to the characters when one force has better Foie and another has better Zonda, for example.

Whether this occurs through drops or level up doesn't concern me too much. Finding drops could be annoying because you feel like you aren't reaching your full potential at that level and MST, but level-up might take FOREVER and requires lots of grinding. If I had to choose I'd take drops.

[Lesita]

Maybe level them up, but you can also find upgrades from bosses? depending on the difficulty?

[kyuuketsuki]

I don't care to much how we get techs as much as how they work endgame. I'd like to see it work so that you can't get every tech to max level--it adds more variety to the characters when one force has better Foie and another has better Zonda, for example.
I believe the skill-tree takes care of that, where you can invest points in specializing in fire-based techs, lightning-based techs, etc. I don't think they're going to arbitrarily restrict one FO from using tech disks of above a certain level for a certain tech.

[Macman]

I don't care to much how we get techs as much as how they work endgame.He's got the right idea. Doesn't matter how you beef up your techs if they're gonna do dogshit damage above easy-mode either way.

[ThePendragon]

What's going to kill me is when my megid has been lvl 10 for a year, and a noob walks into his first run and guess what, he's now got level 11. :|

Finding leveled disks is stupid. Your skills shouldn't be determined by random chance. You should have to work at them and improve them. That said, some rebalancing would need to be done. Maybe maybe so misses still count towards PA XP, but less. Make is so just attacks actually give more XP, and you get a bonus to your PA EXP that gets bigger depending on how long you're able to combo the PA's.

[sugarFO]

Whoa whoa WHOA

I like to be rewarded and feel proud for my time and effort too.

But monotonously pushing one button for months as a second job should never be the process!

UNLESS THIS GAME IS SECRETLY MADE BY KOREANS.

This. Spamming a skill over n over is not fun, it's tedious. If PSO2 is going to force us to level our Technics like in PSU, then PA balancing needs to be had. Buff and Healing techs in PSU are relatively easy to level in buff parties and such, but attack spells? Ugh.

[Fenn777]

What about level-up techs based on efficiency? You get more exp for hitting with a tech consecutively without missing, and for using it against enemies with lower RES to that element? Bonus points for using charged techs or techs linked to a weapon. That way it isn't simply "use Foie ___ times" but how you use it?

[Jonth]

This. Spamming a skill over n over is not fun, it's tedious. If PSO2 is going to force us to level our Technics like in PSU, then PA balancing needs to be had. Buff and Healing techs in PSU are relatively easy to level in buff parties and such, but attack spells? Ugh.

We seem to have opposite definitions of the word tedious. Don't get me wrong, all tech leveling was tedious in PSU, but at least with attack techs you get to kill stuff while your doing it. I thought buff leveling was considered the most boring thing about PSU by the vast majority of players.

Anyway, having been an acrotecher, and having gotten all my buffs to 41+ and some attack techs to 30, and having initially enjoyed the concept of working for that prestige and power... I now hate the idea. I work a job, I don't want to come home and work another for no pay. Yes, I like the idea of continual progression; hence why I like RPGs. However, I don't like the ideology that I must slave hundreds of hours to get to the point of mediocrity. I liked being a force, but I hated that I had to work so hard to not even catch up to melee and ranged (yeah, bullet leveling was stupid too I know) classes, but just to still be out shown by them (I played on PC, I know it's better with GAS now...except for the grind).

But tech crappiness in PSU is not the point or topic here. What is the point is that if I have to put in that much work in comparison to other classes in PSO2, I had darn well better be more powerful (damaging) than them. Cause that is just stupid otherwise. The squishiness alone is reason enough to make it a more damaging class, let alone the work that has to go into it compared to other classes.



Short version: I'm for the leveled tech/skill drops, but if they have the leveling system, the XP curve needs to be about 10% of what it was in PSU for Techs... If that...

...Hello by the way. First time poster, long time reader.

[paracelsus]

I'd like a hybrid of the two tech systems. You can find defined level appropriate tech disks from drop and/or shops like in PSO, but you can also take the time to level your techs through the exp system that PSU used.

That way if you don't wanna wait to find the next level disk, getting poor disk drops or just tend to spam that tech often you can still improve in combat potential.

[NoiseHERO]

As I already said, I don't mind leveling them, as long as it won't take hours to get one level...

Out freakin' 50 like PSU, infact that's exactly why I never took techer classes seriously. If you didn't already have one for months as your first character or something, you'll be assed out when you say "I WANNA PLAY XTECHER" and you have all of these lvl 1 skills that'll never make it past lvl 11 because of the horrible EXP curve they have and it doesn't help that you have 40something different techs to go through.

So I just say keep it under 10 levels each tech or something.

Infact I'm still unsure of how this tech system will even work now... I notice barta is like an ice bullet or some shit, and then theres this currently useless wind element. Hopefully all of the techs will be unique and properly situations... instead of just 5 different colors of the same thing and then all of the megids and light elements do stupid stuff like PSU...

[Macman]

The issue I saw with tech levelling in PSU was that the requirements increased every level, whereas melee and bullet skill requirements only increased every 10 levels.

[paracelsus]

That would explain why I was only a lv7 character in PSU and had a lv19+ Frozen Shot.

[kyuuketsuki]

What's going to kill me is when my megid has been lvl 10 for a year, and a noob walks into his first run and guess what, he's now got level 11. :|

Finding leveled disks is stupid. Your skills shouldn't be determined by random chance. You should have to work at them and improve them. That said, some rebalancing would need to be done. Maybe maybe so misses still count towards PA XP, but less. Make is so just attacks actually give more XP, and you get a bonus to your PA EXP that gets bigger depending on how long you're able to combo the PA's.
Nah, having to spam the same skill/tech over and over regardless of if its fun or appropriate to the situation you're in because you *need* to level one particular skill/tech up is what's stupid. Having tech disks drop "randomly" is no more or less stupid or unfair than having weapons/armor/whatever rely on drops. If you're having trouble finding it and don't have the patience, you can always trade for it.

[paracelsus]

Well its really a choice between options, and with a game devoted to options and choices it would seem a little silly to ignore a possibility at adding another viable option.

[moorebounce]

Hunting for rare things was part of PSO's appeal. I think you should be able to spam your techs but grind your weapons. Spamming photon arts on weapons in PSU sucked hairy bean bags.

[Kent]

No. Forcing players to grind to make their abilities worth anything is always a bad idea.

The theory behind a system where abilities (of any sort) improve through use is that the character's progress will reflect their playstyle, and things they use more often will improve faster. The problem here, of course, is that players don't want to just have what they use often to be good. Some things only have very situational use, and therefore, aren't used very often at all... So it only seldom gets any progress in it. Likewise, things that have more general use, will rise up and cap very quickly.

The obviously-wrong solution here is to weight the growth rate of things differently based on what they're capable of doing. Pretty much the worst-possible method of doing this was done in PSU - by making it based on how many times you affect a target with the ability at hand. Regardless of how you look at it, it's just an amateurish time-sink.

If one wanted to properly design a system where players level up their abilities through use, you have to take into account more than just that - because having a system simply limited to number-of-hits will only lead to people mindlessly grinding for hours and hours, using nothing but this one ability, and not having any fun doing so. Doing one specific, unchanging thing for hours on end is boring. For a growth-by-use system to be effective and enjoyable, a few things have to happen:

The rate of growth needs to make sense - you can't honestly expect players to feel very encouraged when it takes hours of doing nothing but training one specific thing to get a meager amount of progress. The way growth works needs to take into account factors other than "did it affect something?" - factors like relative enemy level, enemy type and how the ability in question actually works. At the same time, these things also need to take measures to make sure players don't feel that it's necessary to make "grinding parties" in which they do nothing but (try to) level up a specific ability.

If, and only if, they could get a handle on these rather basic principles... Then maybe I'd be okay with a system where any player abilities simply level up through use. Considering how incredibly unlikely that is... Disk drops - a system that wasn't really flawed in the first place - is the way to go. The drop rate wasn't exactly unfriendly, and high-level techniques were actually rather easy to find (the section ID system was a double-edged sword in this case, but that's a different topic).

[NoiseHERO]

I haven't played PSO much to know...

But in all the other games NOT PSU where the discs dropped I never had such exaggerated issues where... I'm lvl 7X and my techs are still under in their 1 digits, while some random new guy out of nowhere has a lvl 10 tech early on.

Maybe if you have the worst luck in the world, if you're superstitious like that, then that'd be a valid complaint...

[Macman]

To be honest, I'd rather have to spam a tech to cap it as opposed to never EVER seeing a top-level disk drop like in PSO. That Heavenly/Technique is never gonna get out of my equipment.

[Zorafim]

Thinking around a bit, it seems like it'd be nice if techs leveled up with an exp system. Instead of hitting 40 enemies to level up, have it require 400 hit exp to level up, and assign different hit exp values to different mobs. A lv1 mob might have 1 hit exp, meaning you have to hit those 400 times to level your ability up. Then a lv10 mob would have 10 hit exp, needing only 40 hits to level it up. If the hit exp grows exponentially on mobs, and require exponentially more exp to level, then it would kill the problem PSU had of having to spam a button for hours on lv1 mobs in order to party with it.


Why can't it be both??

*carries Cast Soldier on his shoulders and parades him around*

This is actually a good idea. From normal play, you'd have them at certain levels so you don't have to grind out those first couple of levels. But you still have to work to get them to a good level. I'm all for it!

[SuperChoco]

The way I see it, using a mix of PSO and PSU, you could level photon arts either by finding the disk or by using it over time. Shops could have PA's up to lv. 10, you could find PA's up to lv. 20, but you can only level Pa's past 20 manually, provided 30 was the max.

[Jonth]

The way I see it, using a mix of PSO and PSU, you could level photon arts either by finding the disk or by using it over time. Shops could have PA's up to lv. 10, you could find PA's up to lv. 20, but you can only level Pa's past 20 manually, provided 30 was the max.

Too much room for the annoyance that was PSU to pop up, especially if they compensate for only having to grind 10 levels by making them more time consuming than 1-50 on PSU. Just make it so that they can be found or leveled up to level 30.

[Zorafim]

See, that's an adjustable variable that can be tweeked. It doesn't have to be super time consuming to level anything at all. Though, if 21 were the only level that actually matters like in PSU (third attack of a combo, highest status effect, etc), then 22-30 would just be vanity levels anyway, which should take a while.

That being said, I think 30 should be findable, but rare. 20 should be fairly common, but not enough that you have to make a trip back to Pioneer 2 to sell the ones you've found due to back space issues.

[Randomness]

Nope! I've heard far less complaints about having to find skill disks than having to level them up. Mainly, because having to level up a skill means spending useless hours doing pointless runs to do nothing but level up skills, or suffer ridicule and lowered performance while using them in runs. Heck, this was the reason why I never switched from Fortefighter. I also noticed that it was easier to cap a class than it was to get their abilities up to snuff, especially with lv50 skills.

I like the idea of leveling up the skills, and with a rebalance it might work. But I'd rather use the "find disk" system than the level up system until that happens.

PSU: Level your rifle bullets by using them... 10,000,000 times! My god, the HORROR. And then you realize, you have to do it SIX TIMES, while a hunter gets much lower use requirements AND only needs to level a PA ONCE to use in any element!

No thanks, I'll stick with the system of PSO, PSZ, and PSP2. Go trades!

[RemiusTA]

Well, in PSU, if Technics didn't suck ass, then forces would have been terribly OP at low levels. My spells were ALWAYS high tier at lower levels. I was like level 68 with lv 31-35 technics. (Masterforce wasn't out then, so it was the highest tier)

If they bring back technic leveling, there should be a system that prorates your skill EXP gains by comparing the level of the skill to the level of the character.

For instance, if you're level 30, and Foie is level 1, it should level like 8 times in one stage. If you're level 30, and your Foie is level 26, it should gain far less than if you were like level 100.

This way, the technique will not hinder you by being a low level, but it won't allow/encourage you to grind it either.



Also, if Techniques don't evolve as they level like in PSO, then i dont see the point of a PA EXP system anyway. Giant waste of time, i spent probably 45% of my time on my Force leveling up Technics. I'm not touching force EVER again if they do that.


But they aren't because we've already seen technic discs drop.

[Fenn777]

If they bring back technic leveling, there should be a system that prorates your skill EXP gains by comparing the level of the skill to the level of the character.

For instance, if you're level 30, and Foie is level 1, it should level like 8 times in one stage. If you're level 30, and your Foie is level 26, it should gain far less than if you were like level 100.

This way, the technique will not hinder you by being a low level, but it won't allow/encourage you to grind it either.


I really like this idea.

[Noblewine]

I hope they do something different. I didn't mind how I had to grind my skills in PSU or spam higher rank missions in PSZ to collect higher level skills. Something new for a new Phantasy Star game would be best.

[pikachief]

I personally Like the idea of techs leveling at a pretty quick rate, but finding discs to raise the cap. Like spells start off only getting to lvl 5 or 10, then you find discs that raise the cap higher than that but keep the leveling quick.

And between finding and leveling, I prefer leveling PAs much more than finding them :/

[Zorafim]

Leveling is wonderful when you only play one class, since you're only going to be using PAs for that one class. But if you switch classes, all the sudden you need to put in a ton of work to level PAs, but not so much work to level the class itself... At least for PSU.

Actually, I just remembered. This won't be an issue in PSO2, because each class will be seperate in strength. That is, in order to go from Hunter to Ranger, you need to go back to level one and level ranger from scratch (barring new equipment). This means you have plenty of time to level your skills as you level. So the only problem is leveling new skills that you suddenly decide you want, which really isn't that bad.

And welcome back, Pika. I assume I'm going to see a bunch of pictures of moons with breasts in HUnewearl outfits now that you're here, aren't I?

[RemiusTA]

It wont be an issue at all, because discs were already dropping during the Alpha and none of the players complained about it.

[NoiseHERO]

The only complaint made was that people wanted the level appear on dropped discs.

Which shoulda been... yeah... I hate picking up garbage, should've been already thought of I guess. But that's a nitpickish issue that's gonna be fixed.

[Kent]

For the record, anyone saying derpy things like "But I'll NEVER get a high-level technique disk, because drop rates hate me!" need to learn a little bit about statistics and how item drops actually work in games (understanding of the basic concept of chaos theory will give you an idea of why not being Pinkal can be a bad idea if you're trying to farm disks). You would literally have to do RNG scumming to rig a game to never give you high-level techniques.

Sure, they may not be exactly level 30 disks, but 1.) this is what Pinkal does and 2.) levels 25+ drop pretty regularly even on people with IDs such as Bluefull or Oran - and not to mention, the difference in only a couple levels of technique is very minor, using only a couple percent of damage/healing/stat change, not enough to knot the panties of anyone except OCD min/maxing elitist pricks. You're going all slippery-slope on things, and that's not productive to anyone.

[NoiseHERO]

If you really need the max level to feel satisfied with the few extra points in stats...

I'm sure there would be some kind of trade mission or alternate to just hoping a monster drops something.

They ONLY thing that really ever bugged me in this system, was PSZ's weapons coming with RANDOM PAs... and in PSP2, you'd actually have to go on missions you normally wouldn't feel like doing to get a specific PA.

AND CASTS AGAIN!

IF IT'S STUPID FOR THEM TO DO MAGIC, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO MAGICAL FLOATY SUPER POWER'D MELEE PA'S EITHER!

[Macman]

Kent, you realize that Pinkal's disk rate increase hasn't worked since the Dreamcast days, right?

[RemiusTA]

For the record, anyone saying derpy things like "But I'll NEVER get a high-level technique disk, because drop rates hate me!" need to learn a little bit about statistics and how item drops actually work in games (understanding of the basic concept of chaos theory will give you an idea of why not being Pinkal can be a bad idea if you're trying to farm disks). You would literally have to do RNG scumming to rig a game to never give you high-level techniques.

Sure, they may not be exactly level 30 disks, but 1.) this is what Pinkal does and 2.) levels 25+ drop pretty regularly even on people with IDs such as Bluefull or Oran - and not to mention, the difference in only a couple levels of technique is very minor, using only a couple percent of damage/healing/stat change, not enough to knot the panties of anyone except OCD min/maxing elitist pricks. You're going all slippery-slope on things, and that's not productive to anyone.

None of that really mattered, because you're able to trade discs anyway.

And one or two technique levels in PSO was a much greater difference than one or two in PSU iirc. Mostly becuase the number damage wasn't the only thing that increased.

[Cast Soldier]

Level 30 attack tech disks were comparable in rarity to many 12* weapons.
Level 30 support (SDJZ Resta) were a lot more common, though.

I found 30s of ALL techs multiple times. The tech I found most was Foie(14) the second Razonde(11). The ones I found the least was Gibarta(3), the rest between 4-10.


Thinking around a bit, it seems like it'd be nice if techs leveled up with an exp system. Instead of hitting 40 enemies to level up, have it require 400 hit exp to level up, and assign different hit exp values to different mobs. A lv1 mob might have 1 hit exp, meaning you have to hit those 400 times to level your ability up. Then a lv10 mob would have 10 hit exp, needing only 40 hits to level it up. If the hit exp grows exponentially on mobs, and require exponentially more exp to level, then it would kill the problem PSU had of having to spam a button for hours on lv1 mobs in order to party with it.

*carries Cast Soldier on his shoulders and parades him around*

This is actually a good idea. From normal play, you'd have them at certain levels so you don't have to grind out those first couple of levels. But you still have to work to get them to a good level. I'm all for it!

Paired with your idea of leveling up techs and its perfect. If you have a lvl 8 tech thats about to lvl up then you find a lvl 9, you can sell or trade it to someone else. Conversely if your lvl 7 just turned to lvl 8, you can learn it.

*looks down at Zorafim from his shoulder to ask "Doesn't your back hurt, I weight a couple ton....???*


For the record, anyone saying derpy things like "But I'll NEVER get a high-level technique disk, because drop rates hate me!" need to learn a little bit about statistics and how item drops actually work in games (understanding of the basic concept of chaos theory will give you an idea of why not being Pinkal can be a bad idea if you're trying to farm disks). You would literally have to do RNG scumming to rig a game to never give you high-level techniques.

Sure, they may not be exactly level 30 disks, but 1.) this is what Pinkal does and 2.) levels 25+ drop pretty regularly even on people with IDs such as Bluefull or Oran - and not to mention, the difference in only a couple levels of technique is very minor, using only a couple percent of damage/healing/stat change, not enough to knot the panties of anyone except OCD min/maxing elitist pricks. You're going all slippery-slope on things, and that's not productive to anyone.

WHAT!!! I knew it!! It was a cruel bad joke because I was a CAST. My section ID was SKYLY.

[NoiseHERO]

I found 30s of ALL techs multiple times. The tech I found most was Foie(14) the second Razonde(11). The ones I found the least was Gibarta(3), the rest between 4-10.



Paired with your idea of leveling up techs and its perfect. If you have a lvl 8 tech thats about to lvl up then you find a lvl 9, you can sell or trade it to someone else. Conversely if your lvl 7 just turned to lvl 8, you can learn it.

*looks down at Zorafim from his shoulder to ask "Doesn't your back hurt, I weight a couple ton....???*



WHAT!!! I knew it!! It was a cruel bad joke because I was a CAST. My section ID was SKYLY.

Fish men know how to lift with their legs.

[Cast Soldier]

Fish men know how to lift with their legs.

YOU. The CAST HATER :-x

I grinded in ultimate Ruins and Seabed ALOT to beat Dark Falz(the bastard only came near me when he had that damn rainbow armor) and to get through those Towers(I hate those plants).

How much can the fish men lift with their legs?

[Zorafim]

Roughly this much.

[spoiler-box]
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/Zorafin/Champions%20junk/screenshot_2009-09-12-22-43-31.jpg
It's a shame I wasn't in my fish outfit when I was taking those pictures.
[/spoiler-box]

[Macman]

I found 30s of ALL techs multiple times. The tech I found most was Foie(14) the second Razonde(11). The ones I found the least was Gibarta(3), the rest between 4-10. I outright refuse to believe that statement. Unless you played for about 10,000 hours, there's no way anyone's lucky enough to catch several .0001% chance disk drops. What's next, you're gonna tell me you found 15 Sealed J-Swords and 8 Psycho Wands?

[Selphea]

I outright refuse to believe that statement. Unless you played for about 10,000 hours, there's no way anyone's lucky enough to catch several .0001% chance disk drops. What's next, you're gonna tell me you found 15 Sealed J-Swords and 8 Psycho Wands?

I traded for them legit ok! (Came from Zael)

[Angelo]

I hate the idea of finding them, but I'm also not 100 percent on board with leveling them up.

I think something similar to grinders, but for techs would be better. Maybe some extra 'skill points' you earn my completing missions that you're free to spend on any tech you'd like. I think that would sit well with people on both sides.

[Jonth]

In the end, I think everyone should be getting themselves mentally ready for the idea of leveled disk drops. That is the way it was in the Alpha, there didn't seem to be any notable complaints about the issue, and in fact, the issue where they said they would make it so you could see the tech/skill level before picking it up only serves to validate that there will be leveled disk drops when the game goes gold. Unless some random event occurs that causes SEGA to change their minds, such as people complaining about it in the second alpha, you can pretty much be assured that leveled disk drops is what we're going to get.

[chaos-shadow]

*sigh* I do like both Zorafirm's idea of PA EXP based on mob level, along with Remius' idea of PA level compared to user's level.

I really just hate the idea of coasting through the game with either meseta or luck. If PA's are just about drops, then really the only thing really keeping people apart is their equipment. Which also generally depends on meseta or luck. Those skill trees better be really dang awesome.

[pikachief]

And welcome back, Pika. I assume I'm going to see a bunch of pictures of moons with breasts in HUnewearl outfits now that you're here, aren't I?

I've been floating around but the internet here at my campus is terrible so I only play PSU during break now. And I don't think i'll be as obnoxious as I was before with posting pictures but I will be sure to make a big girl, but with the lack of beast I may make a Male Cast Hunter and Female Human Ranger :) (Sorry I don't know any of that PSO abbreviation code mumbo jumbo)

[Zorafim]

HU = hunter
RA = ranger
FO = force

mar/marl = human male/female
newm/newearl = newman male/female
cast/caseal = android male/female


In the end, I think everyone should be getting themselves mentally ready for the idea of leveled disk drops.

Party pooper.

[ThePendragon]

Can someone post the email where we can complain? Maybe get their attention?

[NoiseHERO]

Can someone post the email where we can complain? Maybe get their attention?

English speakers don't get that privilege, YOUR PERSISTENCE IS ENTERTAINING THOUGH! 8D

[Macman]

They don't wanna hear anything from our filthy hacking cheating gamebreaking gaijin mouths.

[Jonth]

Party pooper.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind to get mad when people disagree or anything, and I like hearing other ideas. It's just... I really think this is one issue that is set in sand stone... Sand stone because it does have a VERY small probability that it could change from the traditional leveled disk drop formula.

With that said, I do like your idea and Remius' the best out of the PA EXP side of the discussion.

[Arkios]

It's too bad there isn't some sort of internal "Awww, poor guy, here's an upgrade"-type of counter.

Example:
Level 30 Megid is a 0.001% drop rate.

The game realizes you have Megid Level 29 and have had that level of Megid for 20 hours of game time. The game modifies the drop rate for Megid Level 30 to 0.002% (for you, since it's personal drops now).

Now a month passes, you've played the game for 60 hours and still haven't found the disk. The game modifies the drop rate to 0.005% now. This keeps going up until you finally find the tech disk.

[Kent]

I'd honestly be okay with techniques scaling more directly to the caster's base MST instead of leveling up through use or through finding disks. There could, simply, be breakpoints - where after X amount of MST, your Foie now acts as if it's level 2, and after Y amount of MST, it acts as if it's level 3. This way, we'd sidestep issues like people equipping items to learn a technique much higher than their current level should allow, though we could still easily apply total MST toward the technique's normal potency scaling (level scaling, which determines potency scaling, would only be determined by the base amount of the character). I think it could be a workable idea.

Though, that's a whole lot of loot out the window. In a game primarily about the quest for better loot in the first place, that might not be the best thing to do... Unless there were a bunch of different techniques, but we wouldn't want to run into PSU's technique-saturation problems again. I'd be in favor of a system of actually learning techniques (and abilities for use with ranged and melee weapons) dynamically through both use and application, but I've seen the code behind systems like that in other games before, and it's this eclectic combination of not-pretty and brilliant.


Kent, you realize that Pinkal's disk rate increase hasn't worked since the Dreamcast days, right?
Wouldn't surprise me, to be honest - the PSO games were never known for being bug-free.

Though, if you could post some proof of this, that'd be great. You know, not just anecdotal stuff.


None of that really mattered, because you're able to trade discs anyway.

And one or two technique levels in PSO was a much greater difference than one or two in PSU iirc. Mostly becuase the number damage wasn't the only thing that increased.
The ability to trade doesn't mean drop rates no longer matter - though it does help alleviate issues with finding a specific thing (but perhaps the same could be said of any item). But yes, I'm aware that PSO's scaling wasn't idiotically-designed as was the case in PSU. Gizonde, for example, started seeing a rapid increase in range past level 15 - to the point where it outranged rifles in its newfound sniping distance, and could hit some absurd number of targets. Gifoie, likewise, got an expanded area-of-effect, but not rate of expansion, meaning it was capable of creating a longer-sustained damage field after casting (though a given instance of the technique could still only hit a given target once).

I miss technique diversity.

[RemiusTA]

Yeah, Foie/Gizonde/Barta/Rafoie got ridiculous range endgame. Gifoie was just awesome to spam in a room to make sure you'd hit everything. (and probably a few new spawns too.)

[Cast Soldier]

I outright refuse to believe that statement. Unless you played for about 10,000 hours, there's no way anyone's lucky enough to catch several .0001% chance disk drops. What's next, you're gonna tell me you found 15 Sealed J-Swords and 8 Psycho Wands?

I played more like 20,000 hours. I reached ultimate at lvl 81, I reached the ruins about to reach lvl 91. The first time I beat Dark Falz was at lvl 139. I dont remember what lvl I was when beat those Towers. When my memory card started acting funny I made a new character gave it my equipment(Mag,Armor, & rares) brought items with the meseta then deleted it before I lost everything.
My second character reached ultimate at lvl 75, I reached ultimate at lvl 87. The first time I beat Dark Falz was at 134. At this time I have only beat the East Tower, my lvl now is between 145-150 not sure until I play again.

Speaking of being lucky. Shortly before I took a break from playing in one business week I found a Demolition Comet, 2 Cadecuos(spelling), a Morning Glory, & DB's Armor. Monday found the Comet. Tuesday my brother wanted to find the Ruby Bullet went on his file, on Wednesday found two Mil Lily both holding the light rods instead. Thursday got the Morning Glory. Friday happened upon the DB's Armor to end the week strong.

OOH MAN, that Sword I want more than anything in the world. I thought if I could use Reata I would surely be unstoppable. But no if i had that sword I could upgrade it, and never get hit. I didn't care about the Psycho Wand, I couldn't use it. If these weapons are in PSO2, I'll go hard to find or trade to get them(since I'll be able to switch classes)

On topic: I would prefer both grinding & finding lvls, but if it stays finding or they do a complete 180 and switch it to grinding. I be find either way.

[Macman]

This way, we'd sidestep issues like people equipping items to learn a technique much higher than their current level should allowPSZ fixed that by making disks (along with every other equip in the game) level-restricted instead of stat-restricted. Maybe they'll follow suit with this.

[Tetsaru]

Personally, I'd rather be able to actually level my moves instead of have to rely on random luck waiting for an item to drop and end up getting a disc that I've already learned or can't use until I'm several levels ahead. Besides, it just feels weird going from Lv1 Foie to Lv8 Foie all of a sudden. But yeah, either way you'll be grinding - either to level it up through your own use, or by hunting down mobs and hoping it drops.

If move discs were to drop, then they should always start out at Lv1, and they should be for moves that you couldn't normally learn or obtain otherwise (for example, you can buy Foie at an NPC shop, but you can only get Megid as a drop from a Chaos Sorcerer). That, or make them rewards for difficult quests.

Or they could just... y'know... have you learn the moves automatically when you reach a certain level... =/

[Jinketsu]

I like the idea of leveling your spells. I want to put effort into making my foie more powerful. It'll make a career FO stand out from a hobby FO. I also like the idea of finding techs to learn higher levels depending on your spell's skill level. Imagine if Foie had its own skill levels. That would leave MST acting more strictly as a damage modifier, rather than both damage and potency.

I just like the idea of standing out as a career FO, instead of being exactly the same as a career RA's FO that has the same gear.

[Jonth]

I just like the idea of standing out as a career FO, instead of being exactly the same as a career RA's FO that has the same gear.

Believe me, I understand the sentiment behind this, because I had it back when I played PSU. It kind of died for me when I came to the conclusion that other classes had to do a tenth of the work, and still be more powerful than me.

I know I have said it in a previous post, but if have to play 200 hours more than another class, there had better be some SERIOUS compensation. I thought that it was stupid that they always were very careful about not making Forces overpowered. If anything, they should have erred on the side of making them overpowered to compensate for the fact that, 1. they are squishy, 2. they have to put in so much freaking work compared to other classes.

Before GAS in PSU they were crap, in PSO (didn't get a chance to really play it) I have heard tech damage was crap after you hit ultimate. WHY!? Forces are the equivalent to magic classes in other games, and in those other games, magic classes are the main source of DPS for no other reason than they can't take a hit. And no, the fact that they can buff other classes is not adequate compensation in my book. It's nice, but not near enough.

tl;dr

I would be more okay with putting in the extra work to be a career Force if there was adequate compensation for when I did so. Maybe PSO2 will provide this compensation, but it has yet to be seen (alpha didn't seem too friendly to them, but we'll see if the changes from the feedback make a difference).

[Arkios]

I played more like 20,000 hours.

So you have 833 days of play time? Doubtful. (In other words, "NOPE.JPG")

[ThePendragon]

nvm. nothing to see here

[NoiseHERO]

There were people running around with 2-4 thousands hours on their characters easily...

Between PSO in PSU... guess you'd just have to be really "active" past 5-10 years.

[Arkios]

There were people running around with 2-4 thousands hours on their characters easily...

Between PSO in PSU... guess you'd just have to be really "active" past 5-10 years.

I had a friend that had pretty close to that, but he was also AFK a ton of the time and just didn't log off.

10,000 hours would be ridiculous. That's literally over a YEAR of actual time spent in the game.

[RemiusTA]

i'd quit playing games for a very long time if i logged a full years worth on a single game.

[NoiseHERO]

That's why I was done with PSU... after 2000-3000(I don't remember e_e I think I had more than 2000 though) hours...

I dunno how you can play ANY, ONE game for so long without it eventually getting boring... not with all the stupid SEGA drama, or "LOL PSU" sucks. But GOD DAMN, though it probably didn't help since that stuff made a large number of my friends quit. But yeah, I like to move the fuck on...

[Omega-z]

Arkios, in the Time form almost the beginning of PSU and to the shutdown of the PC/PS2 US/EU server I had around 6,200 hours on my main, and had hear some gotten little pass 10,000 with one of there character's. Now I'm around 2,200 with my JP account so adding those too and all my subs I could be around 12-14k just playing PSU alone in 5 yrs not to bad almost 1yr of play time for 5 hmm, Must be going nuts lol. I was even higher with PSO back in the day, almost playing 10-22 hrs back in those days for more then yr and half non-stop. Wow can't believe I lived thru that lol. The game can really grow on you.:)

[Kirin^^]

I used to log thousands of hours on MMO's back when I was a kid. I first started playing PSO v1 when I was 13, I did nothing but play that damn game. Now I have a career so I can't exactly play like that anymore.

[Cast Soldier]

So you have 833 days of play time? Doubtful. (In other words, "NOPE.JPG")


I had a friend that had pretty close to that, but he was also AFK a ton of the time and just didn't log off.

10,000 hours would be ridiculous. That's literally over a YEAR of actual time spent in the game.

833 days is only 2.2 years. I played PSO EXCLUSIVELY for 1&half-2 years(I got it shortly after it came out, but didn't open it for a month to finish another game). PSO is usually my bridge game(finish game-PSO-new game-rinse,repeat). I didn't played PSU nearly as much.


That's why I was done with PSU... after 2000-3000(I don't remember e_e I think I had more than 2000 though) hours...

I dunno how you can play ANY, ONE game for so long without it eventually getting boring... not with all the stupid SEGA drama, or "LOL PSU" sucks. But GOD DAMN, though it probably didn't help since that stuff made a large number of my friends quit. But yeah, I like to move the fuck on...

... SO YOU CAN BASH CAST SOME MORE!!! :-x

... I'm so sorry. That was rude of me. What do you want to talk about??
(whispers under-breath "Cast Hater")

[Selphea]

833 days is only 2.2 years.

Only if you're a NEET who doesn't sleep

[NoiseHERO]

833 days is only 2.2 years. I played PSO EXCLUSIVELY for 1&half-2 years(I got it shortly after it came out, but didn't open it for a month to finish another game). PSO is usually my bridge game(finish game-PSO-new game-rinse,repeat). I didn't played PSU nearly as much.



... SO YOU CAN BASH CAST SOME MORE!!! :-x

... I'm so sorry. That was rude of me. What do you want to talk about??
(whispers under-breath "Cast Hater")

CLEAN MY DOG POOP!

[Sinue_v2]

It's probably already been mentioned (and shot down) before, but I wouldn't mind a bit of a hybrid between finding tech disks and leveling them up. On the one hand, it's a pain in the ass spending days/weeks of effort to level up techs... especially some of the less useful ones... and the support tech parties where everyone just stands around a regen cube spamming techs for hours is boring as shit and borderline cheating. On the other hand, it's not right to have your tech advancement handicapped by pure luck of the draw to obtain them in the same fashion as you do rare weapons.

Perhaps they should keep in place, for the most part, the current tech leveling schema - but let disks also drop (at a less frequent rate) to allow "boosts" up to the specified level... or perhaps have the disk impart skill exp towards a certain tech's advancement depending on the level of the disk.

So, for instance, if you have Foie at lvl 6 and you're 3,000 exp from foie 7 and you use a "Level 2 Disk", it dumps 400 exp into Foie towards the next level. The amount of bonus exp imparted depends on the level of the disk, so finding high level disks won't automatically grant you access to that tier of technique - but it would provide a substantial shortcut to leveling.


understanding of the basic concept of chaos theory will give you an idea of why not being Pinkal can be a bad idea if you're trying to farm disks

Um, for the record, what do system dynamics - wherein the result of future states are highly dependent upon initial conditions - have to do with PSO's drop tables? Chaos theory describes systems that are inherently and fundamentally deterministic - but your future drops are not determined by your previous drops, and the only decisions which have an effect on outcome are your Section ID, Monster Type, and Difficulty. There's not a whole lot of room there for feedback loops or coupling which give rise to the non-linear outcomes. I suppose you could make an argument for each individual instance of a drop, and how even random number generators are not truly random, but I don't see how it would be useful in hunting for items in PSO since you cannot really know the variables involved that result in any specific outcome... you could only make a statement on the average frequency at which certain events occur by observing the system in operation.

I mean, I'm clearly not an expert on Chaos Theory, but it doesn't seem like what your proposing is compatible with what I'm familiar with from the theory or the game's mechanics.

[Arkios]

833 days is only 2.2 years.

Yes, except that it is impossible for a person to actually put in 833 days of played time, in 833 days.

If you slept 8 hours a day and then woke up and did nothing except play PSO for the remaining 16 hours of the day (we'll assume you were being fed intravenously somehow, and had a bedpan for restroom breaks)... it would take you close to 5 years to log this much time.

[Cast Soldier]

Only if you're a NEET who doesn't sleep

IDK what a NEET is, but the hours I sleep per week is no were up to normal standards.


CLEAN MY DOG POOP!

:-x ... :argh:


Maybe certain PAs/Techs have different Max lvls. Weapons specific PAs/Techs Max at lvl 10(some way not gain lvls), Ranger PAs Max at lvl 30, Force Techs Max at lvl 30, Hunter PAs Max at 50.

To counter the growth rate of the different PAs/Techs, along with the EXP PAs/Techs gain from how the PAs/techs are used.

[Cast Soldier]

Yes, except that it is impossible for a person to actually put in 833 days of played time, in 833 days.

If you slept 8 hours a day and then woke up and did nothing except play PSO for the remaining 16 hours of the day (we'll assume you were being fed intravenously somehow, and had a bedpan for restroom breaks)... it would take you close to 5 years to log this much time.

Not even robot could funtion that long without changing batteries or recharging.
I've put in longer hours with less sleep, I have ate while playing, an it doesn't take that long to go to the bathroom(mind you I don't do this everyday, more like a couple times a month). I only made 1 character(well I made the same character twice, but I have them one at a time) Also I still play PSO to this very day(well before I took a break, I do play to continue playing with him until he's maxed.)

[Selphea]

IDK what a NEET is

Not in Education, Employment or Training

[Fenn777]

I have ate while playing, an it doesn't take that long to go to the bathroom(mind you I don't do this everyday, more like a couple times a month).

You only go the bathroom a couple times a month?

[Cast Soldier]

You only go the bathroom a couple times a month?

:-o I meant playing just PSO for more than 75% of the day(and I only did that when I played it exclusively, maybe a couple of times after that).