PSO2 Free to Play?

[SakuraJr]

Hey everyone. I know it's still early to tell, (and I haven't really read much into it) but will PSO2 be Free to Play or pay by month like the old games were? If anyone has information on this, that would be great n_n

[Valkyrie Lovrina]

I'd rather it be P2P(monthly fee) instead of a F2P with cash shop dependency. it depends on the monthly fee though.

[kyuuketsuki]

I don't think there's official word, but I'm betting (and hopeing) it will be a (small) monthly fee. There will most likely be some equivalent of PSU's Guardians Cash, though (e.g. cash shop), regardless.

[MsConduct]

Cash shop ruins games.

[amtalx]

Subscription based online games are notoriously difficult to sustain. Everyone tried it in the wake of WoW's success, and there were far more failures than successes. The best approach would either be free-to-play with microtransactions, which I find unlikely, or a Guild Wars model where access is free, but there are significant content updates that players must purchase.

[NoiseHERO]

nb4 p2p vs b2p vs f2p argument- IS THAT SAKURAJR?! IT IS!

WHUDDUP DUDE, IT'SA ME'UH MIKE!

[ShadowDragon28]

I pray for them going the Guild Wars route... no fee to play online, but have great Expansion pack releases that you can buy like with Guild Wars.

[SakuraJr]

I'd rather it be P2P(monthly fee) instead of a F2P with cash shop dependency. it depends on the monthly fee though.

I agree 100% with you. I really hope they keep it at that instead of F2P so everyone can just buy their gear D: It defeats the purpose of the game :<


nb4 p2p vs b2p vs f2p argument- IS THAT SAKURAJR?! IT IS!

WHUDDUP DUDE, IT'SA ME'UH MIKE!

WHAAAAAT omg long time no see xD it's been a long time :D

[Valkyrie Lovrina]

Wow, I didn't know a payment option like Guild Wars even existed. it sounds really good too.

[SakuraJr]

Wow, I didn't know a payment option like Guild Wars even existed. it sounds really good too.

yeah this is a good alternative as well, but I just pray to Bob they don't go Free to play like Perfect World or something x.x

[Galax]

On the note of Guild Wars (which I have never played, so bare with me), do you mean that the majority (if not all) of the updates have to be bought if I want to use it? That, in my opinion, is not really the best of ideas. There are those who rely on a parent/guardian/whatever's income to be able to play a game that requires a monthly fee. I'm one of them. I'm also considering canceling my guardians license because of it. I'd much rather pay a monthly fee for this than have to buy my way into updated equips and levels. It doesn't quite seem to...click with Phantasy Star style gameplay.

[blace]

On the note of Guild Wars (which I have never played, so bare with me), do you mean that the majority (if not all) of the updates have to be bought if I want to use it? That, in my opinion, is not really the best of ideas. There are those who rely on a parent/guardian/whatever's income to be able to play a game that requires a monthly fee. I'm one of them. I'm also considering canceling my guardians license because of it. I'd much rather pay a monthly fee for this than have to buy my way into updated equips and levels. It doesn't quite seem to...click with Phantasy Star style gameplay.
The way Guild Wars is made is that you buy the initial game, and each expansion is paid for as well, however, you don't necessarily need the expansions unless you wish to do more quests, more areas, towns, abilities and equipment. The game and expansions are found in stores unlike Steam where everything must be bought online, followed by a download time.

[SStrikerR]

There's no chance it'll be free.
0.
Zip.
Nil.
Nada.

[NoiseHERO]

The people on TV say "Zero, zilch, zip, nada!" though.

[Selphea]

It might be Final Fantasy XIV-free, as in free for the first year because the game is so unplayable that it bombs completely.

[RemiusTA]

Hey everyone. I know it's still early to tell, (and I haven't really read much into it) but will PSO2 be Free to Play or pay by month like the old games were? If anyone has information on this, that would be great n_n

It's up in the air at this point, nobody really knows. Dataminers (people who looked through the files in the alpha client) found something that said something like "Arkz Cash" or something like that, but it's not conclusive.

So it's going to be a surprise, i guess.

[Kent]

I would personally hope for a Guild Wars-style system - considering that Guild Wars has the same server and instancing architecture as PSU, yet the payment model for expansions prevented it from requiring any sort of recurring fees (and is further evidence that there's some serious misappropriation that went into PSU's service design and maintenance). Borderlands, though a game that uses a client-server architecture where one player is the designated host, used a similar structure for its updates: You buy the game, and then the developers periodically released $10 expansions for it that were all good quality. I wonder how well it would turn out if PSO2 used a more standard client-server (with proper host migration), or even peer-to-peer setup, while only using dedicated Sega servers for things like lobbies and downloadable quests and whatnot. I've said it before, but the lobbies, even moreso after seeing how they look in PSO2, could have a few ads thrown up on walls and probably pay for themselves.

The problem with allegedly-free-to-play games is that it's far too common that the only way the designers see to incentivize people to buy things for real money, is to either make the game effectively into a pay-to-win service, dramatically limit the amount of time players can play at once, or result to paid items more closely resembling gambling due to randomization of purchased goods. None of these are good for the players or for the developers' reputations.

Of course there's the chance they could do it right, where people want to buy things and do, but receive no advantage over others (inb4 some idiot rails on about being unable to buy competitive advantages in a co-operative game) outside of aesthetics and other things that don't affect gameplay... It just seems really unlikely.

[Zorafim]

I have the feeling that it'll be subscription based, with a cash shop in the japanese servers. I'm kinda hoping for free to play, with some buyable upgrades. Nothing major, no new missions or weapons. Just silly clothing and other things you can buy if you're really into the game and don't mind putting out some money.
From what I've heard, that's the best way to get money from your player base. Lure them in with cheap gameplay, then let them splurge at their will.

[Mitz]

Please god no, don't bring the F2P curse. I would gladly pay somwhere near 15 dollars just to have the full experience from the get-go. I don't want to pay for a boost, a legup or anything like that. I personally think it's a retarded model that will be out of media attention soon. Sure, it's great for people who like to play multiple MMO's but that's what trials and extended trial are for. I'd rather they think of a solution to get more customers that way(YOU KNOW, NEXT TO MAKING AN AD OR FIVE FOR ONCE IN THEIR LIVES BUT THAT'S NOT FOR HEAR) than to resort to such a... poverty-promoting model...

It may sound harsh but I kind of feel strongly against this really. It degrades the quality of game experiences we get as an entire community. I don't need to play Korean WoW-clone #106. I want to play PSO and they damn well make it a proper successor. And I will gladly lay down 15 dollars a month if they succeed.

[ShadowDragon28]

I would personally hope for a Guild Wars-style system - considering that Guild Wars has the same server and instancing architecture as PSU, yet the payment model for expansions prevented it from requiring any sort of recurring fees (and is further evidence that there's some serious misappropriation that went into PSU's service design and maintenance). Borderlands, though a game that uses a client-server architecture where one player is the designated host, used a similar structure for its updates: You buy the game, and then the developers periodically released $10 expansions for it that were all good quality. I wonder how well it would turn out if PSO2 used a more standard client-server (with proper host migration), or even peer-to-peer setup, while only using dedicated Sega servers for things like lobbies and downloadable quests and whatnot. I've said it before, but the lobbies, even moreso after seeing how they look in PSO2, could have a few ads thrown up on walls and probably pay for themselves.

The problem with allegedly-free-to-play games is that it's far too common that the only way the designers see to incentivize people to buy things for real money, is to either make the game effectively into a pay-to-win service, dramatically limit the amount of time players can play at once, or result to paid items more closely resembling gambling due to randomization of purchased goods. None of these are good for the players or for the developers' reputations.

Of course there's the chance they could do it right, where people want to buy things and do, but receive no advantage over others (inb4 some idiot rails on about being unable to buy competitive advantages in a co-operative game) outside of aesthetics and other things that don't affect gameplay... It just seems really unlikely.

Agreed 100%

[SELENNA]

Maybe they'll have a system like Diablo III *barf*

[ShinMaruku]

F2p is not bad you guys just seen it handled horribly. The first pso was f2p you forget that. :P

[kyuuketsuki]

F2p is not bad you guys just seen it handled horribly. The first pso was f2p you forget that. :P
Err... yeah, that was the only one, and there was no Cash Shop or anything. And it was abandoned pretty quickly in favor of v2.

[ShinMaruku]

Err... yeah, that was the only one, and there was no Cash Shop or anything. And it was abandoned pretty quickly in favor of v2.
It was abandoned because Sega thought they could con people into paying for v2 for updates on a disc.

[Kent]

F2p is not bad you guys just seen it handled horribly. The first pso was f2p you forget that. :P
Only outside of Japan.

In Japan, PSOv1 on the Dreamcast had a subscription fee.

The reason people don't like the allegedly-free-to-play is not because we've just seen it done badly, but because the vast majority of games go on this slippery slope of monetization that generally lets people buy winningness, get extorted by ridiculously-expensive cosmetics or effectively just license temporary content on a per-item basis. Only very rarely do things actually work out well and in a way that neither makes the game into an unfriendly cash-extracting service, or unbalances the game in favor of people who pay.

Designing a game solely around monetization schemes can very, very easily lead to bad game design, and I'm certainly not the first person to say this (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6471/the_valve_way_gabe_newell_and_.php) - mainly because it holds true.

The only example that comes to mind of a game that stands out as having done free-to-play with microtransactions well is Dungeon Fighter Online - though it's not without its flaws. The main thing people buy are cosmetic items (which are the only way to change the look of your character aside from class advancement), which only confer very minor bonuses (things like +1% attack speed, or +1 to a class skill), but the bonuses are completely random.

That's one of the caveats of the system they have in place: There's a selection of cosmetic equipment available at a given time that gets cycled through regularly, and you get a randomly-chosen color variant of what's available, with a randomly-determined minor benefit on it... So you can never be sure what you're going to get out of it (i.e. gambling). However, the benefits people get from wearing them are, realistically, negligible at best, even if they luck out and get something they actually want. Most importantly though, no matter what they trick out their character with, they'll never beat out a players who's better at the game, and that's probably the best thing they've done with it.

But, you know, it exists and therefore is not perfect. It kinda screws over paying players in not getting what they want out of it (in that they might get the right style of pants, but in some god-awful color scheme) guaranteed, meaning that they could very possibly spend much more money trying to get something that looks the way they want, than they reasonably should. At the same time, there's the issue of conferred advantages to cosmetic equipment, which... Should really just be done away with, even if the individual pieces are negligible bonuses, if someone shells out a lot of money, they could potentially get a coherent set that gives a noticeable benefit to gameplay, which is invariably bad.

I think if PSO2 were to use a free-to-play model, I would hope the purchasable goods would only be modestly-priced costumes (that aren't already part of the game - perhaps added in with updates every few months or so) and actual batches of new content that expand on the game (like an "Episode II," a full-on expansion), unless they get added in periodically through version updates.

Of course, just releasing the game as a normal purchase, with no monthly fees, but regular expansion packs avoids... basically all conceivable problems with free-to-play systems for the players.

[RemiusTA]

inb4 massive argument defending F2P cash shop mechanics


Regardless of how people defend it, F2P games all go down the same slope and it's never going to change because the reason everyone hates the F2P model is the very same reason it works so well.




Of course, just releasing the game as a normal purchase, with no monthly fees, but regular expansion packs avoids... basically all conceivable problems with free-to-play systems for the players.This i actually agree with.

It actually encourages the developers to CREATE SOMETHING WORTH PAYING FOR in order to get your money.

Unlike F2P, which basically encourages them to glue you to the pavement and poke you with a stick until you finally give in and buy the dissolving agent

[kyuuketsuki]

It was abandoned because Sega thought they could con people into paying for v2 for updates on a disc.
Yeah, people were totally conned into it. :roll:

And like was said, Japanese v1 had a subscription fee.

I dunno why people act like its totally unreasonable when a company charges them an ongoing fee to provide constant, ongoing support and additional content for an online game. Sure, they can also go the F2P w/ Cash Shop route, but that has gameplay consequences and, if handled improperly, very bad ones at that. I'll take the subscription plzkthx.

[Enforcer MKV]

inb4 massive argument defending F2P cash shop mechanics


*Thinks of League of Legends*

Anyway, I think the reason that most people dislike Free-to-play is simply because they usually go down the road of Pay-to-win, which is pretty much exploitation of the F2P concept. They're trying to work anyway in that'll make them more money, because that's all they care about. Now, while this is the general consensus, there are a few rays of hope for the F2P model, namely League of Legends and the upcoming Firefall. Hopefully, if these continue to be successful, then more developers could presumably switch to a sell restrictive model, and become successful.

The only major problem with the F2P model is the temptation to convert it to P2W. At least that's how I see it.

[sugarFO]

I'm all for F2P so long as I can buy my costume without freaking gambling for it. I want to just buy it straight away for a set price. The gambling feature popping up in all these F2P make the risk not worth the price in my opinion. Thank God FOmarl is stylish by default that I'd be satisfied either way. But if I have to pay so much cash every month to stay updated with armor and units and stuff it might as well be a P2P.

[moorebounce]

The best approach would either be free-to-play with microtransactions, which I find unlikely, or a Guild Wars model where access is free, but there are significant content updates that players must purchase.

I wouldn't have a problem with this

[Enforcer MKV]

The best approach would either be free-to-play with microtransactions, which I find unlikely, or a Guild Wars model where access is free, but there are significant content updates that players must purchase.

Let's just for-go true free-to-play, and go with the Guild Wars system......actually, why not hybridize? Let's have a shop with things like clothing. (With NO randomizing. I'm looking at you, PWE.) and such. Like bank extensions, that make the game easier, but not required. and Why not still charge for expansions? I mean, they go to the effort to create all of that additional content for expanding the game, and I don't just mean missions. I mean Lobbys, any potential story expansion, etc.

Just please, for the love of the holy light, don't be a$$holes and start charging for individual runs or packs of runs. THAT'S the fast way for killing your game and alienating your fanbase.

Rule of thumb - if you play nice and make a game that people honestly enjoy, they're more willing to pay for frivolous things like hats. (F***ing TF2....lol) when they have the money, instead of making it "Oh, pay or you suck."

[Zyrusticae]

I just wanna say that I really, really do not support paid-for expansions. They inevitably fragment the community, which you see in every MMO ever made with paid-for expansions.

I suppose that's not a problem for games with hundreds of thousands of active players... but PSO2, at least in the west, is not going to be one of those games. Unless they pull off some kind of miracle, at least. Or unless they really do have global servers. At any rate, I'd rather pay a monthly fee and get the expansions for free/as a part of the monthly fee, as at least then the community isn't splintered up into haves and have-nots.

[Kyrith_Ranger_Pso]

i have a sinking feeling that if there's a monthly fee they just might still make you buy the larger expansions anyway

[Zyrusticae]

Given precedent, they probably would.

But at least the monthly fee is considerably cheaper than the standard MMO fee ($10 vs $15 a month).

[Alisha]

they are already doing free to play with microtransactions.....in infinity.....

[NoiseHERO]

they are already doing free to play with microtransactions.....in infinity.....

handhel-

I'll let someone else jump on that one.

[Nitro Vordex]

i have a sinking feeling that if there's a monthly fee they just might still make you buy the larger expansions anyway
Sup, AotI.

[Enforcer MKV]

More like, "S'up, industry standard"

[Xaeris]

Ideally, I'd like a monthly subscription model, but I don't think Sega can pull that off here. The one advantage a F2P model has over a P2P model is that in the former, you have a vastly larger community. One of the things (the main thing) that killed PSU for me was that I'd log in and have only the same two hundred or so people to play with. PSO2, as much as some of us won't want to admit, is going to be a niche game and susceptible to the same problem. Being F2P with a cash shop would go a long way towards populating the servers.

Besides, it's not as terrible as being portrayed in this thread. Sure, I prefer not to be nickel and dimed for content, but it doesn't necessarily have to be "pay to win." Champions Online is a good model; everything in the cash shop is either cosmetic or unusable in PvP and they seem to do pulling enough money that they're investing further in developing more content.

[RLbitClassica]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not really for the whole "paying monthly" thing. My philosophy is that you should pay one time for a self contained game and being able to play it online with others. I don't believe in constantly updating games with new required content for a monthly fee (WoW, anyone?). That said, I don't know everything PSO2 is bringing to the table, so i might make an exception.

[lostinseganet]

I would be upset about jpn getting better treatment than the non-jpn world. with the inclusion of mags I am pretty sure I will buy this, BUTT weighter I pay for monthly access will depend on how well we are treated compared to jpn. NO excuses this is a MUST for me!

[Macman]

I dunno why people act like its totally unreasonable when a company charges them an ongoing fee to provide constant, ongoing support and additional content for an online game.There's a key problem with your statement when it comes to our experience. I'll let you mull over it for a while.

[Garnet_Moon]

I would be upset about jpn getting better treatment than the non-jpn world. with the inclusion of mags I am pretty sure I will buy this, BUTT weighter I pay for monthly access will depend on how well we are treated compared to jpn. NO excuses this is a MUST for me!

I'm not following PSO2 information very closely because the videos I've seen so far have me almost wetting myself in excitement. I'd die of anticipation if I started to really follow it...

That being said, from what you say, it sounds like the Japanese will be having their own servers, and the rest of us have our own like it was in PSU? We're not sharing them like we did on PSO? Well, nuts. I better start learning Japanese then. SEGAC of America will not be getting my money again.

[Enforcer MKV]

There's a key problem with your statement when it comes to our experience. I'll let you mull over it for a while.

Eh, let's just forget the muling and get straight to the point:

The Japanese have a consistent track record of not treating the rest of the world fairly when it comes to PSO and it's later incarnations. Hell, I remember someone posting an article of a member of SEGA JP saying that PSU outside of Japan was being treated as a different title, and therefore was not up for all of the updates that the Japanese got. That being said, the problem with your statement, Kyuu, is that the "constant, on-going support" That you speak of just isn't there for anyone outside of Japan. That's why there is a push for world-wide servers, and that's why there is so much doubt. It'll surely be a supported and fun game for the Japanese, it's simply a question of whether or not it'll be worthwhile for the rest of the planet.

[NicorTheDuke]

Maybe they'll have a system like Diablo III *barf*

LMAO!!!!That Made my day

[ANIMEniac]

I am 100% prepared for the $8-$10 a month plan they have had for the past forever-years. as much as i LOVE the model Guild wars and GW2 use, i dont think a game like PSO2 has the legs to be able to go that route. because lets be honest, the PS series will never have the numbers to hit that 7th digit of subscriptions, so the fact that we aren't paying $15 a month alone, i consider a gift lol.

[ShinMaruku]

I dunno why people act like its totally unreasonable when a company charges them an ongoing fee to provide constant, ongoing support and additional content for an online game.
WAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Unlocked content on the disc? Throttled content always behind Japanese release? Come on.

[kyuuketsuki]

WAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Unlocked content on the disc? Throttled content always behind Japanese release? Come on.
Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm not defending PSU or Sega's poor handling of US/EU servers to this point.

[NoiseHERO]

Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

This is about PS being FP2 though. So no there's escaping what you said!

[kyuuketsuki]

This is about PS being FP2 though. So no there's escaping what you said!
I assume you meant there's no escaping what I said... but yeah. What I said was meant to be for the subject of subscription fees in general, not specifically about PSO2. Obviously, if there is a subscription fee, I expect a certain level of support that I wouldn't argue wasn't there in PSU (which I why I stopped playing it after a pretty short period of time, along with all the game's other issues).

I don't think there's much validity in arguing that, since PSU (and to some extent, PSO as well) was poorly supported on the US/EU side, PSO2 should therefore be F2P.

[NoiseHERO]

I assume you meant there's no escaping what I said... but yeah. What I said was meant to be for the subject of subscription fees in general, not specifically about PSO2.

That's how I typed it yeah. This is a topic about PSO2 being F2P, Otherwise you're the irrelevant one!

Yooouuuu!!!!

[RemiusTA]

LOOK LOOK HES BREAKING, ITS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME NOW

[RLbitClassica]

Make it F2P and release optional downloadable content and Sega will have no problem getting pretty much all of my spare cash.

[Akaimizu]

Oddly enough, more as time goes on, the F2P models are winning me over. I also actually feel good about parting with a little cash here and there, for in-game stuff; partly because I don't go overboard with it, still save loads of cash, and support the devs that brought me the fine product in doing so. Only, of course, the game has enough for me to *want* to stay around for.

[NoiseHERO]

I'm actually really jealous of F2Players

Before it was like "fock those cash bastard leetists!" but now that I have a job it's all "faugh-ck! I'd be boss at a f2p game"

[EvilMag]

They might have something like the Free Course System like in JP PSU.

[ShinMaruku]

I assume you meant there's no escaping what I said... but yeah. What I said was meant to be for the subject of subscription fees in general, not specifically about PSO2. Obviously, if there is a subscription fee, I expect a certain level of support that I wouldn't argue wasn't there in PSU (which I why I stopped playing it after a pretty short period of time, along with all the game's other issues).

I don't think there's much validity in arguing that, since PSU (and to some extent, PSO as well) was poorly supported on the US/EU side, PSO2 should therefore be F2P.
No I'm saying we should never expect such a level of service from Sega more so I think the time of the sub free game has passed unless you are fucking massive like Star Wars or Wow.
Everybody else would make more money through different avenues. Look at DDO.

[Xenobia]

Subscription based online games are notoriously difficult to sustain. Everyone tried it in the wake of WoW's success, and there were far more failures than successes. The best approach would either be free-to-play with microtransactions, which I find unlikely, or a Guild Wars model where access is free, but there are significant content updates that players must purchase.

I agree on that, check out my statement on other topic: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187376&page=145

However, i dunno if anyone in Japan would have such kind of innovative implementations. They are innovative when it comes to the design of a game but not when it comes to stuff such as payment options and economical matters. Main reason is because of the rank issue, in Japan, younger people are stictly ruled by the older ones (sensai sensai mentality) and to less new input at times. But they are aswell always very extreme when it comes to any kind of stuff, so they rarely will be average, it simply always have to be at a extreme level. I definitely CAN NOT say that the current condition such as they currently handle PSU is sufficent in any country other than JP and i clearly see the issues... which i tried to put down and i hope there will be changes on PSO 2. And why it works in JP is mainly thanks to the extremely good community and aswell because in JP they always have the highest support by far. Even many people outside JP play on a JP server, which is absolutly understandable. Nowadays i would say, people from US and EU = same amount such as in JP... in term they make some changes toward theyr approach that is. But if they are gonna execute same mess such as they previously did, they will lose many customers, on a unstoppable level and have to take servers down and all that nasty stuff.

THAT there IS a high US and EU base regarding RPG players is clearly proven already. Many games such as FF13 had a higher sell rate in US and EU than in JP itself, so US and EU is certainly a growing market for that kind of stuff. When they fail to suceed, its clearly theyr own failure, no one else is responsible for.

[RemiusTA]

they're harder to maintain because they actually require maintenance.

[Xenobia]

Whats harder to maintain? The EU and US servers you mean? What, they do require maintenance? What a wonder... i just found out that it actually may require some maintenance.

Regarding some background, the US server is made by about 5000 parts, manufactured by about half of the worlds nations. Indeed, its truly amazing how much nations are affected for manufacturing certain electronical systems. Even better example is the creation of a Iphone 4S and all the nations affected by it, its multi nation on a very hard level. So the server itself is barely any difference.

Regarding the ehm expensive (?! aha) US worker... well yeah, that could be a mess i guess. ;) Maybe you gonne be the new server guy/gal then things may improve at the other side of the ocean. ^^;

As for being unable to update theyr server data and therefore always being half year behind, maybe a single geek could help them out on how to gather and update those data. And if it still doesnt help, then simply make one single server for all nations and use the same people working on it. Some may have bad ms but i dont think that it truly is a major problem, compared to all the other problems we have gotten.

[RemiusTA]

Subscription service.

When you subscribe to a magazine, you don't get a magazine one month and then a 3 page brochure the next.

With a Cash Shop though, the incentive to pay comes from a lack of content, which they provide you with. Except it's usually trivial shit, and they only update the game with more trivial shit. Of which 50% of the content is usually designed to coax you into another cash shop hole. (USUALLY deals with the shitty synthesis system.)

[Zorafim]

Sorry, are you talking about cash shops in PSU, or cash shops in general? I don't know how PSU worked out with the cash shops, but from what I've been told it seems rather terrible. In general though, it seems great.
People get drawn into the game because the game is fun. However, the game only has so much content. Once they do all the most fun things, they start looking towards other, smaller things. In WoW, it's pets and mounts. In PSU, it's clothing. In Team Fortress (is that the right name?), it's hats. They may give you enough of these things in the game itself to make the average player happy, but the WoW player might see the Diablo pet and say "I have to have that", or the PSU player might see the Miku set and say the same, or the Team Fortress player might see the nurse hat and say the same.

In short, the game developers normally do their job. If the players don't want to play the game, nobody will. And nobody wants to play the game if they have to pay for everything (upgrading weapons, doing new missions, going to a new zone, etc). However, if they get everything for free and love it, they'll be more willing to pay for extravagant stuff.

So, the effectiveness of a cash shop depends on how well it's done. If I'm not mistaken, PSU did it kinda terribly (What was it again? You could buy missions that gave you additional exp and rewards? Weapon grinder fixers? I don't even know. And all this on top of their monthly fee?). But if you can draw enough people in with good content and free gameplay, enough will want to stay long enough to buy their stuff.

[RemiusTA]

I'd much rather them just periodically release paid expansions, similar to AotI.


Because no matter what they release, i'd much rather find it in-game instead of paying for it. It kills all the fun of having it in the first place when instead of someone going "Hey, he's really lucky for having that weapon" or "wow ive never seen that clothing before, how did he get it" , you get a "oh yeah its that thing from the cash shop he paid $3 for."


And my old argument of "if it was included in the game content, it probably wouldn't suck" still stands, because then they wouldn't have to standardize the stats to make it fair for those who don't pay. In a game that's so focused on obtaining gear, who the hell wants to buy weapons and clothing? It defeats everything the game is about to me.

[Garnet_Moon]

I just hope they don't call it a Hunters License when it goes live. I was a ranger and force mostly in PSO. Why did I have to pay to play a Hunter when I never played one? Seriously!

[yoshiblue]

Because your hunting monsters? Thus a "Hunter".

[Xenobia]

Stuff such as cash shops are truly taking out my good mood. We already paid monthly fee, obviously it wasnt enough. The question is how comes that it isnt enough. Work on it and then we will reach final destination. But it certainly wouldnt help to have player base cut by half because they may get upset about the insane greed, and then the few left pay harder and harder, its just impossible to maintain.

Firstly, everyone need to have equal opportunitys, no matter how fat its money bag, and usualy you pay for addons, not for hilarious stuff. I surely would feel ashamed when someone asking me "where did you get the cloth"? Oh.. its 3$ from cash shop.. ehem? How im gonna explain this, its a game.. we play to get the stuff, ok not entirely true.. we pay to get the stuff.

Nah cmon, im a gamer not a meseta machine.

[Zorafim]

In a game that's so focused on obtaining gear, who the hell wants to buy weapons and clothing? It defeats everything the game is about to me.

Precisely what I'm talking about. If they allow players to buy weapons and armor, instead of getting them by actually playing the game, they're doing it wrong. The fun of the game is to overcome difficult hurdles, and get rewarded for it. If someone is rewarded just as much as you are by spending his drinking money on buying the weapon you spent hours getting, then the developers made a huge mistake.
The same could kinda be said for outfits. In PSU, most outfits were handed to you, so you can't really make the same argument. But you have the opposite problem of having an item that you can only buy with cash being so awesome that everyone wants it, while the in game items don't feel as cool.

What they need to do is introduce items that just don't matter. Taking PSU, everyone will probably be wanting clothing like the Digiel, guardian's formal, awesome stuff like that. Though some people might want more casual gear, like... Okay, every outfit released in that game. So you need to find items that not everyone will want, since people will get angry that they can only get that item by selling out. Instead, sell nitch items that are neat, but maybe out of place. A good example is holiday items in PSU. I'm sure people wouldn't mind if an option was introduced that dresses your character up in a santa outfit, or if they could buy a christmas tree skin for their weapon (so long as their performance isn't increased by said item), or a visual skin that tosses presents out of you. And heck, you can make those available in game, too! I'm sure tons of players miss the christmas event, but decided they want that santa hat. Just cash shop it!

This is what some other games do, and I'm okay with it. WoW sells pets and mounts that are out of place in the game (overly cutesied owlbears and gryphons, poster characters from other blizzard games, etc), Global Agenda sold visual units (holloween mask, elf mask, stuff like that), team fortress does hats... Just as long as the items are silly and kind of neat, but don't make a big impact to the game, I'm alright with them using that to make a revenue if that means that money comes back to me somehow (cheaper monthy fee, more content, etc).
And as far as it impacting other players, well... Your character might look awesome in all the gear you worked hard to get, but the guy next to you has a santa hat. That doesn't really change much, does it?


We already paid monthly fee, obviously it wasnt enough.

Another example of them doing it wrong. The entire point of a cash shop is so that they don't need a monthly fee. With this, more people are willing to pay, since it's "free"! Instead of charging each player $10 a month, a third of their player base will buy nine $3 items. So, if you don't feel like paying, you play the game for free. If you don't mind spending some change on a neat new item that doesn't really effect anything, then you get that.

If we're also paying a monthly fee, then we'd better be getting something in return. In my opinion, the only game that can really pull that off is WoW. They have a ton of subscribers, so they can afford to insult a few with a cash shop. But at the same time, they also give the players a TON of stuff for that $15 a month, and each in game item you cash for is neat.

The main reason I'm endorsing Cash Shop is Global Agenda. That game, besides the fairly cheap cost of the game itself (I think I paid $30), is completely free. So no matter how long I'm out of the game, I can just log on and play. The reason for this is because the servers and content are funded by the cash shop, which sells fairly silly items. So because that one guy over there wanted that elf mask, I can pick up the game and play two years after I last played, with no interuption.


I just hope they don't call it a Hunters License when it goes live.

This was kinda a throwback to PSIV. In that game, your character was a mercenary called a hunter, who sold their skills to solve other people's problems. PSO's quest system was similar, so they decided to call it the hunter's guild, after PSIV's hunter's guild. The problem was that they also called melee users hunters too.
I think this is why they changed the name to Guardians in PSU. Makes more sense, since there's no guardian class. And I'm pretty sure they'll have another name in PSO2, if they even call the subscription a "liscense". And heck, that's even if they have a subscription!

Uhg, here I went and made a goliath sized post. I guess this is what happens when I'm the only side of an argument...

[Xenobia]

That santa claus in the summer is hurting my sense for good taste and even in the winter i may chose different.

If you actually think the monthly fee isnt enough and i paid like 18-19 $ every month (because of my swiss account, US account is like half of that) then i surely may lose my good mood. Other MMORPGs add new content on a monthly basis while in PSO i barely ever had any new content and close to zero support while those other MMORPGs had heavy support, but finally i even had to pay more for PSU. Enough is enough and thats why i canceled PSU many months ago. In germany, for 20 $ a month i could rent a entire server for forum or even game use (and thats almost everything they did, there was close to zero new content or support)... ;) And in 2 to 4 months it would be sufficient to buy a new game, as i said, im feed up with this.

Realise the true issue.. a to low user amount and realise whats behind, in order to make changes. PSO is actually very popular when promotion is done the way it should, and its entire economical shape.

[Zorafim]

You... you did read my post, right? The point of cash shops is that they don't need a subscription. If they have a subscription, and a cash shop, then they're either doing it wrong, or they'd better be giving back. I'm pretty sure PSU did it wrong, but I stopped playing before they released it.

Also, I have to say it's kinda neat that I'm talking to a foreigner. It's rare to see those in english forums.

[Xenobia]

You mean without monthly fee? Ok if it works go on with it. Approved. Since, clothes are non critical item content, and if it would be able to make monthly fee gone, then let them have theyr paid clothes, its everyones own choice. Not that i like to be the owner of it but when they help me paying for game time, they shall have theyr fun. When i watch theyr clothes i surely may start to watch them as my personal gold donkey and may even thank them for that.

But please go away with that crazy pet stuff and all that junk which is already way to disturbing in WoW... just give them new clothes and maybe new mags (which does not have any advantage apart from the look). Could aswell sell grind stuff such as EXP or special grinders (which can be found but very hard).. for real cash. Some advantage to those who have low real life time but lot of real life cash and kinda its not bad at all, because we kinda help out each others.

But as i said.. those are different concepts.. dont mix it. It need to have a clear and pure concept!

[Zorafim]

See? That's all I'm saying!

[Xenobia]

Its nothing new, its stuff which was for example used on Perfect World. If it works great on PSO i cant say out of the blue. But we surely will have a much bigger user base. Although i rather like to spend cash for new content. Maybe if they combine such a goodie shop together with much more new addon-content, at least once a year, giving additional cash, they can truly get ride of the monthly fee demand. With addon i simply mean stuff such as a new levels, new items and new monsters, all that fun stuff. Ofc a level cap increase or a new level difficulty cant be considered a addon, thats just some unlocking which is actually artificially created. Addons dont need to be huge but they should be motivating and let you see new stuff. New clothes will be added all the time on the shop, thats kinda a flowing addon (and in that term most of it is paid with RL cash...).

Because of the much bigger user amount it can work out great. Question is if they are vital enough to implement that.

[RemiusTA]

i stopped at perfect world


no i really hated that game. no offense to you though ;D

[Xenobia]

I am not playing it anymore. although indeed i was playing it for a while, which is the case for several houndred of other RPGs aswell, so dont feel special. ;) You can aswell talk bad about, absolutly easy on me. hehe.

According to my view.. PSO is special, you cant compare it with most other stuff, actually not any of them. PSO is PSO and we all love it because of that fact. Although PSU (kinda the black sheep) definitely was rather a step back and sadly not a very good development. They hopefully try to build up the original PSO and all of its strenghts... then it will start to become legendary on its own unique way. The only thing i truly enjoyed about PSU is the new room mode and ofc all the funny clothes but apart from that it is weaker than the original PSO. Aswell stuff such as timed PA surely is a good componnent they hopefuly take over to the new PSO2.

[kyuuketsuki]

I think this is why they changed the name to Guardians in PSU. Makes more sense, since there's no guardian class. And I'm pretty sure they'll have another name in PSO2, if they even call the subscription a "liscense". And heck, that's even if they have a subscription!
I'd bet on them going with "Arkz License", since everyone is now an "Arkz" rather than a Hunter or Guardian. I'm still curious as to why they went with Arkz when that name was used for the anti-government sect in Episode III and they apparently want PSO2 to be entirely separate from PSO. Except for all the obvious PSO throwbacks/homages/"fan service"...

Anyway, also: I second the disbelief that anyone would want to buy weapons/armor/whatever in a cash shop in PSO2. Treasure hunting is an integral part of the game. Wanting to spend cash-money to bypass it is just... weird/dumb/iunno. But, the rise of gold-farming/level-farming services in every single MMO ever pretty much demonstrates that the market is there.

[Xenobia]

Clothes has always been sold on a separated shop, there was no drops. Although we had to use meseta for, not real cash.

Those who got rich in PSU, are usualy the one being great traders and aswell.. sadly.. some grinder cheaters, anyway, thats how it looks. But it doesnt necessarely reflect theyr capability for gameplay as a whole. Surely it would be weird when monsters are dropping pink clothes out of the blue... you seriously start to think, how is it possible monsters dropping stuff like that? Maybe they robbed a almost innocent being.... ;) Guess it makes sense to use a shop for.

[Selphea]

Anyway, also: I second the disbelief that anyone would want to buy weapons/armor/whatever in a cash shop in PSO2.

Drop by the PSU forum. Regular scheduled arguments about using GC every 2 weeks 8)

[Noel Vermillion]

P2P plz Dx

[Garnet_Moon]

If it goes P2P I expect expansive seasonal lobbies AND themed dungeons. Like, have the rare Rappies as usual, but make everything else do something seasonal as well. Maybe have robots painted to look like skeletons, flying mobs dressed as ghosts, replace cars with giant pumpkins, and give bosses a seasonal appearance. Like the Dragon could have its tail wrapped like a candy cane for Christmas, or a devils tail for Halloween, and little heart-shaped pupils for Valentines. Maybe during Halloween if you die in the field a mini-boss zombie mob will spawn and need to be killed by people? Or maybe during the 4th of July if you die you become an impressive multi-colored explosion that deals damage like a wide-area SUV from PSU. It'd be rare to see a seasonal death, but it'd be that extra perk that'd be worth seeing.

Lobbies are cute and fun to hang around in, but give us at least an option to have festive dungeons and mobs if it's going P2P.

If it's F2P they can be lazy with dungeons and just give us festive rappies.

[Ryoga4523]

PSO (to play online) has been p2p since the first one on the dreamcast. Why would they all of a suddenly change? It was a hunter's license back on pso, and it changed to a guardians license for PSU. If you want to play offline, I am almost positive it will be free, just pay for the game, and play. If you want to play with others online, on servers maintained by SEGA, then you are going to have to pony up and pay.

[Xenobia]

I am sorry to be blunt here but the offline version of PSU was a mess, because it didnt get updated at all (talking about Xbox360 here), and it was very very incomplete itself. It simply was a story mode using fixed characters, there wasnt even any own choice of characters possible... its part of the story mode... thats all. It was a totaly different game and at the last stage of the development and/or unlocking, the online version had like several times more stuff (any content). Doesnt work like that but nice try. As for the old PSO servers, they are on private servers because SEGA cant maintain such servers it seems, even if they cost almost zero bucks in theory (because its so few users, a very weak server will handle it). So you may do your homework first before posting that kind of premature fruit juice. I seriously cant see the issue by maintaining some servers, nowadays you could rent them at almost every city. The true cost is the development of new stuff, but as long as the users are very few, the server demand is rather low. Just its making kinda tired when the server and theyr so pricy maintenance are responsible for any cost ever created, servers are nowadays a standart thing, its not starship enterprise. Besides, PSU was very incomplete at the release date (hence so much bad ratings on the official press), so it surely needed more serious development at first to be a fully rounded up game. But finally they had in mind that they just gonna sell the offline mode for full amount and the online mode will be stuck to monthly fee anyway, so they can slowly add it. Well, i truly hope they start to expand theyr possibilitys at some point and dont try to rely on such ideals because its not necessarely sustainable.

[Macman]

I expect reliable content updates if they stick to a P2P system. Knowing their history overseas, though...

[Xenobia]

There is just no reason anymore because if it end up the same way such as we had on PSU i gratefuly step back from it. Why not just to let us pay all the ADDONS they are implementing (maybe on a half year schedule) and other stuff will only be based on shop sells and a F2P? Sure you can be old school and just always do the same thing, but SEGA is the almost only company permannently taking servers down and aswell having a very uneven customer support, and it certainly didnt turn out how it should. Although, PSO itself... is a legendary game, no doubt about. It got near endless potential! Have to be wise and release its wings.

[Scyris]

I think a sub fee of 9.99 with some cosmetic stuff you can buy in the cash shop, maybe some items that up drop rate by a certan % for a few hours. Bascally they need to have a cash shop with stuff that helps, but stuff that doesn't unbalance the game too badly. Gear in cash shop= a major NONO, because the second any mmo does that it pretty much becomes pay2win even in pve.

[Scejntjynahl]

I think a sub fee of 9.99 with some cosmetic stuff you can buy in the cash shop, maybe some items that up drop rate by a certan % for a few hours. Bascally they need to have a cash shop with stuff that helps, but stuff that doesn't unbalance the game too badly. Gear in cash shop= a major NONO, because the second any mmo does that it pretty much becomes pay2win even in pve.

Heh. This sounds like Aion already. Pay a monthly fee of 14.99 PLUS a cash shop to buy purely cosmetic changes. Changer your character's name? 9.99 please. What? Change appearance? 19.99 please. Oh ho ho, you like that new armor skin that has no stat bonuses? 9.99 please. Want that silly lolillop look for your mace? 9.99 ok. Oh don't forget to pay your monthly bill of 14.99 :3 Kthksbye. Oh almost forgot... the initial 29.99 price to buy the actual game is not included. Albeit... the graphics are beautiful. Just hope you have deep pockets.

If pso2 goes f2p with cash shops that allow you to buy actual rares... why play? What is the point of PSO? Hanging out to chat with cute avatars? I don't think so. It was about joining forces with your friends (or making friends) for that ever elusive rare we all wanted.

About the only pro I can hardly think of is that it might generate new blood. What I do not know if that will be good blood or bad (whinny emo ppl, bullies, etc etc) blood.

But who knows, Sega might pull out a rabbit out of their magical hat and give us a gem that is worth every penny. But I am not going to get my hopes up till I actually play the game and see if the old drive to hunt non-stop comes to me again.

[Zyrusticae]

I am easily capable of forgiving Aion for the cash shop when considering that expansions are free. (And they're not small expansions, either.)

Although I do wish they let me change character appearance for free, or at least for in-game currency...

[Scejntjynahl]

I am easily capable of forgiving Aion for the cash shop when considering that expansions are free. (And they're not small expansions, either.)

Although I do wish they let me change character appearance for free, or at least for in-game currency...

Yes. I agree. The concern is for people who live check by check, a system like Aion can get expensive really fast.

And a p2w situation would put such people in a complete disadvantage (if pso2 adopts this style) to enjoy the game when you feel completely undergeared no matter how long you play.

People have mentioned Guild Wars... and I have to agree that system seems to be a decent one for people who have to manage their funds.

[Xenobia]

So, how much cash you finally give out for that online experience? 20$ a month? Im sure someone from India gonna pay it aswell... ok not entirely but im sure they are able when the whole family and 100 of theyr neighbours are helping out. Ah yeah, India is out of question i guess, my bad. So then it will be the, still rich, US, EU and JP as usual i guess. Although, using such a narrow minded strategy is the reason they never will be able to get theyr throat filled with enough of bucks, at the same time while the servers keep increasing in power... (about 20 to 30% a year). Fact is, in the world wide market, Japan is getting smaller and smaller, and is losing bottom every new year...

What advantage does F2P have at that point? Well.. India can play with us in theory, Brazil too if they enjoy, even many poor ones. Although even in the US many people are poor but still like to play for cheap. Finally you will exclude almost any poor people on the planet (ok why do they need to play with us anyway, they should go harvest rice). Besides, Aion surely is a new level of size and currently cant be puted down to the same level such as PSO. PSO still will have a long way to go to raise itself to the same level such as Aion. Not that i play Aion but Aion, kinda like FF11 and WoW is a true MMORPG with a very high overal size. PSO will have to increase a lot to reach the same level of size, on its own category which is kinda a mix between MMO and simply O.

About online play, there is some other bad smell, because there is no own data anymore, you will be bound to eternaly pay a monthly fee in order to have access to it. On XBL only the american people with special rights can aswell enable and disable the monthly payment through theyr account management, but the dirty rich EU people...; maybe not all of them? Lets give UK, US friends, special rights too but never ever to Swiss. And the others will have to make a a phone call everytime they want to disable it... thats how it works, right dood? Rrriiiing: Hello im at the other end of the wireless-work, after pushing countless buttons and hearing your wonderful phone music i wish to disable it again, , "WHAT disable again, HOW comes?" Yes it comes and goes.. cant say my lady, just am out of nutrient at some point, probably because of the special charge?. , REALLY? Ok i will slowly disable it once again (pssshhh... Sir... cant we make even more restrictions so its even harder to cancel? Credit card and auto payment with phone call abortion doesnt seem enough..). Surely, i more and more start to enjoy the old time where i paid for a good and complete game and lot of fun aswell. I surely will enjoy Skyrim a lot and have several weeks of fun with.

[RemiusTA]

"rich americans"

bro there are people with 4 year degree loan debts here who can't even find jobs





$20 is fucking insane, but to be completely fair, the average combo at mc donalds costs almost $8, and the last time i got a haircut that bitch was $15 dollars. Anyone who complains about the fee 1) probably doesn't have a job or 2) is in a tight money position and probably shouldn't be paying to play their videogames in the first place.

[NOFEAR]

And why not this :

F2P and with a massive Cash Shop. (hold down, let me explain)
You should have the option in your player shop to set the price in meseta and in meseta/real cash (no real cash only option). And SEGA will charge a tax to the seller, a % of the sold price for the transaction. (I will cap the number of items that can be sold in meseta and cash at same time to prevent pro farmers)

Example (based in PSU items):
Grinder Base S 250.000 meseta / 0.05$
Kan Yu 42% Ice 0/10 15.000.000 meseta / 3$
If its sells for real cash SEGA will charge, lets say a 20%, to seller. Seller will receive 0.04$ for each grinder sold in that way and 2.4$ for Kan Yu, an SEGA will receive 0.01 $ for each grinder and 0.60$ for Kan Yu.



Players will have the option to buy/sell items with meseta or real cash, up to you, not just SEGA. People against buying/selling with real cash can just set prices of all their store just in meseta.
Real cash buyers wont have any advantage against others in terms of exclusive quests, areas, items, weapons, armors, or any kind of boost droprate or experience. Even wont give them any advantage of getting better stuff (grinds, %'s) of the existing ones.

Paypal or any other method (SEGA Points?) should be implemented.
In that way both parts SEGA and players make a profit of all the stuff being sold.
Im not sure but maybe a free online game where you can get some extra bucks will bring us to PSO2 a large new wave of players.

[Xenobia]

"rich americans"

bro there are people with 4 year degree loan debts here who can't even find jobs

$20 is fucking insane, but to be completely fair, the average combo at mc donalds costs almost $8, and the last time i got a haircut that bitch was $15 dollars. Anyone who complains about the fee 1) probably doesn't have a job or 2) is in a tight money position and probably shouldn't be paying to play their videogames in the first place.



Who is eating at Mc Donalds? You? I pay 15$ on a "runnig buffet" but then i can eat as much as i like, unstoppable...close to the point i have to vomit, but at least i had my tiny stomach filled up (well, it got gigantic after) and i feelt like it was worth it to pay 15$ for. Then i can stop eating for several days in a row and only drink tea and play games till i make same crazy stuff once again.. ;) So i tell ya.. thats totaly worth it. I usualy eat tons of pure canard flesh and new zealand clams, so the stuff i got down the throat is having even more value. Going to Mc Donalds with stuff of no value and no amount is the very last thing i am going to do. I had in mind youre a american who does real stuff but instead youre going to sip at some stale cowpat meat...

Haircuts?.. people with long hairs rarely ever going to cut it, sad tears! But you could aswell just use a razor and always keep the head clean... from expensive hairs. :D

If economy keep continuing like that, 99% of the world will be in "tight" money position. Youre kinda contradictory, at first you say how hard it is, even having a doctor degree to find any job in the US, and then you say... in other words... PSO simply is only for rich people, which does aswell exclude way to many americans. Thats exactly the stuff we would be able to prevent using a F2P, either way, reality will soon be revealed, for the good or bad.

[RemiusTA]

what are you even saying

[Xenobia]

You can always save up bucks but realize whats worth the cash and what not, im glad i helped you out on that. Finally everyone can give out theyr cash for whatever they enjoy but dont come to me and say that PSO should cost massive cash because all of theyr other activitys cost massive cash aswell, which is sadly not the best excuse. We do not have insane prices because of the true cost, we do have them because of the greed of the shareholders and cash created out of the air, thats how a system is continuously crashing. Theyr wishes will always be served first, else a company can get busted since its sold to them. Any other interest comes second. The P2P concept didnt actually made Sega move more than 5 fingers because finally they still was going the easyest way which will aswell be able to make the shareholders happy, not necessarely the users. There are so many different versions of PSO and another form called PSU that you truly feel splitted apart into a never ending confusion. Why cant they make a single good game and then try to permannently support it? I dont think we truly want endless amount of different versions in which every version will die at some point, and then we simply say... well. we jump over to a new version and then the hype starts once again. Finally, they never ever touch real ground that way, they struggle any kind of real stability. No matter how much they physically or virtually gonna charge, the issue lies at another spot.

[RemiusTA]

so 12 dollars is massive cash these days


oh so steadily losing hope

[Xenobia]

Well, if you want my honest answer on that. Sega will have to focus all of theyr power on a single version of PSO and then try to reach the same state of support and condition such as WoW, FF11, Aion and/or Eve Online. When they finally suceeded doing that, then they gladly can even charge twice that amount from me. But at the current condition, and how they are gonna execute that stuff, F2P may have a higher advantage. They will have to try to keep it a low budget game and try to get the cash in another way. It may work out better... which is, at the current condition pretty certain. Because it simply IS a low budget game. We have just to less user paying for, and those rather few users rather pay a lot compared to what they get...

[NoiseHERO]

Who cares-I just wanna play the damn game already, I'm bored.

[Garnet_Moon]

"rich americans"

bro there are people with 4 year degree loan debts here who can't even find jobs





$20 is fucking insane, but to be completely fair, the average combo at mc donalds costs almost $8, and the last time i got a haircut that bitch was $15 dollars. Anyone who complains about the fee 1) probably doesn't have a job or 2) is in a tight money position and probably shouldn't be paying to play their videogames in the first place.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kTnu4Vp_WLY/TpeFIQ1vmgI/AAAAAAAADKw/egB9Z9gtJT4/s1600/99%2Bpercent1.JPG

Hmmm.

[RemiusTA]

Well, if you want my honest answer on that. Sega will have to focus all of theyr power on a single version of PSO and then try to reach the same state of support and condition such as WoW, FF11, Aion and/or Eve Online. When they finally suceeded doing that, then they gladly can even charge twice that amount from me. But at the current condition, and how they are gonna execute that stuff, F2P may have a higher advantage. They will have to try to keep it a low budget game and try to get the cash in another way. It may work out better... which is, at the current condition pretty certain. Because it simply IS a low budget game. We have just to less user paying for, and those rather few users rather pay a lot compared to what they get...


not even gonna lie, i didn't read any of this

you run off on tangents even worse than i do, bro.

[Xenobia]

You cant seriously call a cardboard of the size of a home, a true home? US are notorious for a home without value. Finally know the value of what you get. Cant afford because paid to much, several times to much to be exactly. And the issue about illegitimate childens is kinda a new age sickness because we (western world) arnt anymore faithful to each others, but thats everyones own failure, keep me out of this. Aswell i dont have luxurys i dont need, and thats exactly the reason why i cant afford a PSO which wouldnt be worth its value, because i dont have luxury i dont need. :D But indeed, its kinda the 99% in the US and very sad, very very sad...

@Remius, thanks for telling me this ehm bro... but i truly wouldnt care if you read it or not, thats your own concern and i do fully respect that.

[RemiusTA]

I did read that one though


what ARE you TALKING ABOUT? So Sony isn't the only people you have issues with too? Do you dislike America as well?


I don't want to jump to conclusions, but i'd probably be right if i said you dont know very much about anything in this country, do you?

Americans may be "SUPER RICH" compared to YOU, but that really says nothing at all about their position in their own country.

[Xenobia]

No, i dont dislike america as a whole, i have some pretty friends there, if you there... me hug you big time. US is spelled out a lot because of theyr big influence to PSO and theyr advantages they got compared to me. Apart from that i could care less. However, i am a very interested person about almost any stuff on the world but we should remember that we are on a PSO board in which we should try to stay on topic. The stuff i say is usualy linked to PSO unless you gonna use your US related mentality in order to link to PSO, in which i aswell have to touch your national pride. But be sure that i do not view it any worse than most other countrys and there is a lot of countrys i do hate more (and im not gonna spell out, since i do not want to hurt someone).

[Garnet_Moon]

If we're talking about dinner, I can easily spend $40 at Arbys in a single sitting. Well, that's because a single sammich is like $5 there, so that's not saying too much. I also love me a #2 at Burger King! Texas double whopper with bacon and cheese, no japapenos, large drink, large fry... every bit worth the $9 it costs.

God, those watered down fountain drinks. Thank god it's unlimited, and thank god Bargs root beet cannot be watered down no matter how hard they try.

[Xenobia]

Sure we can have some food talk between since without food we cant play PSO, right?

[spoiler-box]Unfortunately i have to tell you, Burger Kings at the place where i live is terrible, the Double Whoppers and what else is extremely small and not even very tasty, so it certainly depends on location. US surely will always have advantage on that since its the country of burgers and they may handle it with extra care at that location. Dunno about Arbys really but i wish a solid burger would only cost 5$ where i live, thats impossible... ;) Nothing of that is worth it, surely my location is no advantage. Besides, if you have to pay 40$ for burgers and what else, thats just a rip off. I can tell you how it got produced but im not sure i can post it, its 16+ because there is more violence than most people will see in theyr entire life (mainly swine flesh mass production is main issue, world wide). My most beloved meat is lamb meat from Ireland, they are always outside on the big isle... and tastes like goddess. My second most beloved meat is from Austria and its kind of a special turkey meat of a upper class and quality. I buy that stuff totaly raw and make preparation myself (i love to cook). ;) Using 40$ i can get a good amount of that flesh, and i feel like i eat just what i want. However, i dont eat flesh on a daily rate, my mentality is "either visit a running buffet in which i can make my stomach totaly full... or i only eat flesh about every second day, 3-4 days a week."[/spoiler-box]

Ok, lets talk F2P once again, else we gonna make a OT with food talks. ;)

[RemiusTA]

No, i dont dislike america as a whole, i have some pretty friends there, if you there... me hug you big time. US is spelled out a lot because of theyr big influence to PSO and theyr advantages they got compared to me. Apart from that i could care less. However, i am a very interested person about almost any stuff on the world but we should remember that we are on a PSO board in which we should try to stay on topic. The stuff i say is usualy linked to PSO unless you gonna use your US related mentality in order to link to PSO, in which i aswell have to touch your national pride. But be sure that i do not view it any worse than most other countrys and there is a lot of countrys i do hate more (and im not gonna spell out, since i do not want to hurt someone).

You do realize that PSO is developed by the Japanese, right? They mold it to their country, not ours. You know, that's kind of the whole issue. You seem to like to attribute lots of random things on the first popular choice. And you also seem to like to talk as if people are somehow all ignorant to the world around them.[spoiler-box]

fun time

Yes, many americans are very much aware of what happens in the terrible slaughterhouses that supply them their dinner. Most of them however do not care because of how absolutely delicious the poor beasts are when a bit of Tony Chachere's is sprinkled over them. Some of us are aware of how badly those animals are treated. If it makes your heart bleed a bit less, my mother only buys Cage Free eggs now!

We are also aware of the steroids they place in some of the animals, although many of us do not give a fuck for the reasons I stated above. Especially not guys, as females in some parts of the country tend to grow some absolutely wonderful assets when it's eaten in moderation.

Yes, many americans are very much aware that they are not living in a 3rd world country, and the country as a whole is living far above their needs, especially when relative to the rest of the world. We watch with arrogance as the rest of the world tries to achieve our status and pollute the shit out of themselves. And no, many americans do not care, because they are at the same time trying to not get their shit repo'd.


Yes, the schools over here are trash (at least in my state). Yes, china will eventually grow far smarter than us as we sit on our ivory tower and laugh at the rest of the world, and they'll probably end up teleporting their military over here to stomp us to death out of sheer numbers too. And then the next country to remove us (which would most definitely result in the rest of the world being flashed into carbon isotopes but whatever) will do the same thing.


or something.



[/spoiler-box]

[Xenobia]

MS is mainly responsible for how i got treated on PSU payment, and that is unfortunately a country issue coming from the US side (while they put US in advantage, on purpose). Thats why i was bringing up US on that term several times. MS isnt nice to "outsiders" MS is mainly trying to please the US market, thats why the EU have to make so much restrictions and as its adding up to a even higher displeasure from the side of MS. Now the mistaken you do is to take it over to you as a individual, i always think on the level of a company and buisness related. I do never think toward individuals, they are always rated individually, regardless theyr nation, age, gender or what else.

Now the whole XBL mentality on how it is executed on EU is aswell just to much to talk about just right now and to far apart from topic. All i can say is that they are splitting the market extremely apart and are trying to individually rob the segments while providing half the content from what a US got.

People, the majority, are indeed ignorant but i cant explain, thats to much to handle and not topic related. [spoiler-box]Besides you forgot to tell that US is almost 100% gentech and that this condition is almost unable to make retrogressive and will someday make you totaly addicted to those companys linked to it, since they may have issues at being reproduced without those special treatment. To much actions are only focused on short time gain but what happens in thousand years? One thing is for sure: People will care more about than they ever wished, and they may regret a lot of failures they made in the past.[/spoiler-box]

[RemiusTA]

where the HELL do you get your statistical information, dude...

[Xenobia]

Im Xenobia... not dude, ;) I dont know if that stuff is from hell its simply reality.
[spoiler-box]
For example: http://www.transgen.de/anbau/eu_international/189.doku.html It says, share of gentech at cotton, corn, soya bean and sugar beets at about 90%, probably world record and its going up and up, and it may contaminate all other plants because its hard to have a agriculture in which both does exist close together.. actually not possible in the long run. The non gen will be mixed with gen (thats why they call it "transgen"), sad truth. I said, almost 100 and it surely will soon reach a condition very close to it. Rape is a plant where gen is used for no true reason, and it will slowly contaminate the non gen (we have that issue mainly in Canada on that specific plant). Infos you get might either by distored or simply people dont care what happens to theyr food. Some might even find it great but my view is, tech is used best on particles which isnt food and food should stay natural because of the unknown consequences (loss of bio diversity and what else). That method is probably most common and still weaker than some other methods and how it works: http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef130.asp Note: Currently, genetically modified foods in the United States do not require special labeling to notify consumers. Will be useless because there is soon not a single plant without (from the affected plants which are vulnerable). However, in the long run most stuff may not be sustainable because the insects will become resistant to it and then the gen-protect have to expand in a unlimited manner. There is aswell some worry if all those foreign gens are tuly good for consumer health, and it still doesnt completly prevent the use of chemicals in order to protect from either insects or fungus. Which wouldnt be needed if that stuff isnt a massive and very vulnerable monoculture which lacks any natural protection.

Fact is, in only 13 years, the percentage of non gen to gen, has increased from 10 to 90% regarding many different monoculture plants. Nowadays, corn, cotton, soya, sugar beets and rape are gen produced with increasing percentage. Other plants may exist aswell but those are the most important ones (for US). Take into account that soya beans are mostly used to feed animals which finally will be food, and the sugar beets can be found in almost any sweetened food, so there is aswell a indirect way of eating it.

Besides, in my country caged chickens and gentech isnt allowed by law, so its not special to me for not having it. Special to me is if the stuff is even free of any chemicals, then even me does feel special. ;) The plant i like the most from US is fresh almonds from California. Should i visit US gimme some of them, i appreciate. Other stuff i eat is usualy other country. The thing is, arrogance to the world outside is leading to arrogance to the world inside... take care.

Youre always welcome to ask me stuff, in a nice manner.
[/spoiler-box]

Uhm yeah.. any stuff regarding F2P? :D

[Anon_Fire]

*facepalm* this isn't getting anyone anywhere

[RemiusTA]

Im Xenobia... not dude, ;) I dont know if that stuff is from hell its simply reality.
[spoiler-box]
For example: http://www.transgen.de/anbau/eu_international/189.doku.html It says, share of gentech at cotton, corn, soya bean and sugar beets at about 90%, probably world record and its going up and up, and it may contaminate all other plants because its hard to have a agriculture in which both does exist close together.. actually not possible in the long run. The non gen will be mixed with gen (thats why they call it "transgen"), sad truth. I said, almost 100 and it surely will soon reach a condition very close to it. Rape is a plant where gen is used for no true reason, and it will slowly contaminate the non gen (we have that issue mainly in Canada on that specific plant). Infos you get might either by distored or simply people dont care what happens to theyr food. Some might even find it great but my view is, tech is used best on particles which isnt food and food should stay natural because of the unknown consequences (loss of bio diversity and what else). That method is probably most common and still weaker than some other methods and how it works: http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef130.asp Note: Currently, genetically modified foods in the United States do not require special labeling to notify consumers. Will be useless because there is soon not a single plant without (from the affected plants which are vulnerable). However, in the long run most stuff may not be sustainable because the insects will become resistant to it and then the gen-protect have to expand in a unlimited manner. There is aswell some worry if all those foreign gens are tuly good for consumer health, and it still doesnt completly prevent the use of chemicals in order to protect from either insects or fungus. Which wouldnt be needed if that stuff isnt a massive and very vulnerable monoculture which lacks any natural protection.

Fact is, in only 13 years, the percentage of non gen to gen, has increased from 10 to 90% regarding many different monoculture plants. Nowadays, corn, cotton, soya, sugar beets and rape are gen produced with increasing percentage. Other plants may exist aswell but those are the most important ones (for US). Take into account that soya beans are mostly used to feed animals which finally will be food, and the sugar beets can be found in almost any sweetened food, so there is aswell a indirect way of eating it.

Besides, in my country caged chickens and gentech isnt allowed by law, so its not special to me for not having it. Special to me is if the stuff is even free of any chemicals, then even me does feel special. ;) The plant i like the most from US is fresh almonds from California. Should i visit US gimme some of them, i appreciate. Other stuff i eat is usualy other country. The thing is, arrogance to the world outside is leading to arrogance to the world inside... take care.

Youre always welcome to ask me stuff, in a nice manner.
[/spoiler-box]

Uhm yeah.. any stuff regarding F2P? :D

yeah okay whatever, none of us care though

All this complaining just sounds like overcompensation

[Skye-Fox713]

I believe PSO2 will be P2P with an initial purchase of the game then a 10$ monthly fee. That I can live with.

[CocoaTan]

I can live with a 1500 Yen monthly fee. Or 2000 Yen.

[Noblewine]

I rather pay a small fee to play online but I hope the game is moderated better; but I guess that's wishful thinking.

[Xenobia]

I can live with a 1500 Yen monthly fee. Or 2000 Yen.

The question is "under what conditions". What do they give in exchange. Up to 2000 Yen is 2 times the amount i have to pay in order to play EVE online and even WoW would cost me lesser using a expensive Gametimecard. The question is if everyone (majority) is same on that view, which surely isnt the case. Finally its hard to keep PSO running out from a bunch of freaks. Age of Conan is nowadays F2P, however, the F2P customers will have many restrictions. If you pay... you will get more. Aswell a interesting concept.

[RemiusTA]

i never know what xenobia is talking about anymore

[Anon_Fire]

i never know what xenobia is talking about anymore

Xenobia's not making any sense at all.

[NoiseHERO]

Xenobia's not making any sense at all.

Y-yes.. YES! o_O

YOU DO THIS A LOT!

THIS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS THING, IT MAKES ME WORRY.

[Garnet_Moon]

I had a mcrib today. It was so good. PSO2 better recreate that feeling of the first bite every second I'm playing if it expects me to pay monthly for it. I mean, that's 3 or 4 mcribs a month. That's not easy to replace.

[Kent]

The question is "under what conditions". What do they give in exchange. Up to 2000 Yen is 2 times the amount i have to pay in order to play EVE online and even WoW would cost me lesser using a expensive Gametimecard. The question is if everyone (majority) is same on that view, which surely isnt the case. Finally its hard to keep PSO running out from a bunch of freaks. Age of Conan is nowadays F2P, however, the F2P customers will have many restrictions. If you pay... you will get more. Aswell a interesting concept.
That's the million-dollar question, really: With a monthly subscription fee, we expect a certain level of service that, as the past has taught us with both PSO and PSU, Sega/Sonic Team has a very difficult time delivering, especially outside of Japan.

If they don't support the game properly for it to really live up to the subscription fee they're charging, it will only harm the game's longevity. This is a big part of the reason why the monthly subscription model is avoided and/or doesn't work for a significant portion of the online-only games out there: Some games don't need that level of service, and could be better-supported through microtransactions or advertisements.

At the same time, a lot of people are pretty wary over spending a monthly fee on a game that's specifically not an MMO, because the non-massive nature of the gameplay implies heavily that there's a lot less overhead for the servers that need that level of upkeep. It all really boils down to how much they can justify charging for the service they're giving - if they aren't giving good service, people aren't going to continue to pay them for it monthly, and the game will either go offline or see some major uprooting of the game's payment structure to shift itself toward what it really should've been in the first place.

2000 yen (currently about $25 USD) monthly is not something I would even consider for a game that surpasses even top-class MMO service. A game like PSO or PSU, I wouldn't even pay half that - because that's a price point that they really just have no business trying to charge for a game of that scope, even before looking at the level of support they give for them. I'm certainly not the first or last person to feel this way, but once we consider how much server upkeep should cost based on the type of game at hand, we're either talking about a low-end monthly fee, or skipping those for the point of entry and instead following an expansion pack model and/or a microtransaction model.

[NoiseHERO]

I don't even care how SEGA's making money off of this game anymore, you all have jobs by now don't you?

[RemiusTA]

Like seriously. Why are we even going over this.

[Anon_Fire]

Can't we just put this to rest already?

[Xenobia]

We are talking about F2P and its advantage and/or disadvantage. If it makes sense to you or is not understandable isnt my concern. However, if there is the possibility to grant others a clearer view or to have a clearer view granted to myself, then i take that possibility. In term its not possible, then there is no need to worry... "worry" is useless condition in that case. Now, im still not at the condition where i can say that i am fully satisfied with what i know. Most likely PSO and its conditions will stay the same way as it always been, but its absolutly not clear if that is a successful way in order to unleash the game as a whole. We learn from the past and the past was kinda troublesome.


I don't even care how SEGA's making money off of this game anymore, you all have jobs by now don't you?

You probably didnt notice that Sega has done P2P already for up to 10 years and it didnt help to unleash the true wings which could be belong to PSO. You can pay as hard as you wish but you are not the majority. Thats why i spelled out my concern about the struggling to maintain a condition only by freaks. And up to 25$ is still 25$, i pay lesser for my household insurance combined with indemnity insurance.

Some fun stuff is, on XBL there is some trial version, and that version was free and always accessible. That version had a pretty good player amount... and i knew a friend who told me, even if it is only a half assed trial version, he still enjoy to play with some friends. Well, he is a poor scholar but even many "rich adults" may not be willing for P2P, we already talked about its reasons so i dont need to rerpeat.

@ Kent, Some pretty insightful words about the current state of condition and the possible risks involved, thank you!

[NoiseHERO]

PSO2 ISN'T WALL STREET!

JUST BY THE 6 MONTH PLAN!

[kyuuketsuki]

Xenobia, serious question... is English your first language? I'm guessing not.

How about this: P2P acts as a barrier to keep out the casual players who might be inclined to disrupt others' gameplay and generally act like jerks and hack and cheat. I'm not saying people won't act like jerks and hack and cheat on subscription accounts, but I'd have to assume that a population of players who simply get in because it's free are going to have a higher proportion of those sorts of people.

[Scejntjynahl]

Not that Im defending Xenobia, but trying to discredit someone's comment by pointing out that English is not their native tongue is a bit ludicrous. Hell, English isn't my first language as well. What matters is if the person is understood or not. How many times have we not been plagued by cyberjargon such as "ppl", "brb", "lol", etc etc? I know from experience my English teacher would of fainted at that. However, here we are and we still understand what is implied. So if you don't understand something Xenobia said, ask Xenobia to clarify.

As to Xenobia's overall sentiment towards Americans, to each their own is my only comment.

About the topic, I have said it before and I will say it again. If PSO2 goes free to play, it should follow the method layed out by Guild Wars.

[NoiseHERO]

Casual players are all hackers and trolls that don't pay subscriptions now?

PSO has "pros" ?

[Xenobia]

P2P will never be able to create a barrier against jerks, because many jerks are rich and many non jerks poor, thats reality and nothing less. So the issue is dismantled from my side, its simply nonsense.

I shall read some english books... to reach enlightenment, but im usualy to busy playing RPGs and watching animes. Although, others issues are not necessarely my issues, as long as they fail to seek for clarification. I am a master of german grammar for which i am proud and will increase english one aswell, just a matter of time.

[Macman]

The point he was trying to make is that most scriptkiddy griefers usually don't have the resources to follow a P2P game.

[Xenobia]

Script kiddys are rather exploiting vulnerabilitys, and if a game or what else is programed that bad that such kind of exploits are possible, then they may aswell just deserve to be penetrated. Although, i do absolutly not support such mentalitys in any way. The point i wanted to make is, that even PSU has been exploited by cheaters, although the issue was mostly rather low (there was still several vulnerabilitys which got exploited). I dont think that F2P would make a game much more vulnerable unless the game is already at a very weak condition. But i dont know how it turns out on PSO, all i know is that even many old PSO games at P2P conditions got totaly cracked down, including theyr servers. But i dont think there has ever been a real hacker, thats a category you rarely ever meet.

A true hacker usualy will follow a certain honor codex. So you can be very sure that almost never such peoples has been involved into actions like this.

I mean, i dont deny the fact that the possibility is increased at F2P, however, i know many F2P games having a higher security than PSO (for example Age of Conan, Perfect World)... so we cant say that it isnt possible to protect against such risks.

[Scejntjynahl]

Im sorry, but I really believe it to be an oxymoron to say that there is any form of "honor" among a true hacker. Not unless you mean an honor that only applies to them and not to the innocent bystanders/users that are trying to mind their own business when all of the sudden their service is disrupted because a hacker is either bored or tryint to prove a point.

The only thing that I may agree on is that no matter how good the lock gets, the thief always finds a way to break in. The reasoning in creating difficult "locks" is to try to keep the lazy thiefs/hackers at bay. But in reality, if they really want in they will find a way in. Irregardless if the service they are breaking into is paid or not. So it really doesnt matter if we pay for pso2 or if its free. We will have people who have no good intentions or frankly just dont care enough about anything beyond their own personal paradigms.

My only concern is for people who have to survive on a single paycheck, in my opionion it should be free to play for that alone. But I still hold that it should follow Guild Wars method.

[Xenobia]

You should not lump them all together. Some of them might break into your PC but all they are actually executing is to spy everything out for curiosity reasons. Many of them have absolutly no interest into causing damage. Being a hacker doesnt necessarely mean to cause damage, thats some wrong view almost any people got. Its same such as everything, you can use it for good or bad. Being a hacker means, someone may be able to penetrate or break, but how its used is up to the individual.

Own buisness? A company does rarely "mind theyr own buisness", especially a big company is stomping at other entitys tail over and over (thats why we have to execute so many regulations and why we do need rules). Usualy on purpose, because its the way how it works in order to become the emperor and hopefully very rich. So you cant say that they truly do mind theyr own buisness because it will always affect another entity in some way. Many of those companys might use theyr power in order to abuse the weak, that has always been like that and it will probably never stop and thats how many of them got rich. But even the most innocent company is trying to turn stuff toward theyr advantage. Although in the term of Sega i pretty much view it as one of the most innocent companys on the planet, however, Sega cant freely move as long as theyr success doesnt increase even more. As more power as more capability to be free.

Why it does affect a "innocent user" simply is because they do kinda support those companys. Now they may get collateral damage when that company is being shut down or rendered unable to move. However, have to take into account, usualy the company either made someone mad by theyr tactical approach and/or they aswell was just to stupid to be true (being very vulnerable). So we cant entirely say that crackers, hackers or what else are always the evil and any other... a holy entity, doesnt work like that. We have to care for each others, thats the best way to prevent things like that.

[Scejntjynahl]

You should not lump them all together. Some of them might break into your PC but all they are actually executing is to spy everything out for curiosity reasons. Many of them have absolutly no interest into causing damage. Being a hacker doesnt necessarely mean to cause damage, thats some wrong view almost any people got. Its same such as everything, you can use it for good or bad. Being a hacker means, someone may be able to penetrate or break, but how its used is up to the individual.

Ok so according to this logic I can break into your house in the middle of the night to look at the contents of your refridgerator? Take a picture of said contents and leave. As long as I dont actually "harm" you in any way that would be ok right? That is breaking and entering something/somewhere that does not BELONG to you. It is inexecuseable by any means. Seriously it is this lax attitude that gives criminals such a field day with the few who actually try to abide by the rules.


Own buisness? A company does rarely "mind theyr own buisness", especially a big company is stomping at other entitys tail over and over (thats why we have to execute so many regulations and why we do need rules).

Here I meant business as what I personally do with my free time. Or anyone does with their free time. I did not mean to say an actual industry or conglomerate of any kind.



Usualy on purpose, because its the way how it works in order to become the emperor and hopefully very rich. So you cant say that they truly do mind theyr own buisness because it will always affect another entity in some way. Many of those companys might use theyr power in order to abuse the weak, that has always been like that and it will probably never stop and thats how many of them got rich. But even the most innocent company is trying to turn stuff toward theyr advantage. Although in the term of Sega i pretty much view it as one of the most innocent companys on the planet, however, Sega cant freely move as long as theyr success doesnt increase even more. As more power as more capability to be free.

Technically if you deem a company to be ... hmm ... evil it is ok to exploit said company? But you are threading on a topic about abosolute power abosolutely corrupts. Well yes, there is no denying that. But as my father used to tell me, it is always the innocent people that pay the price of the usurpers and those who fight them.


Why it does affect a "innocent user" simply is because they do kinda support those companys. Now they may get collateral damage when that company is being shut down or rendered unable to move. However, have to take into account, usualy the company either made someone mad by theyr tactical approach and/or they aswell was just to stupid to be true (being very vulnerable).

Interesting. That almost sounds like if my father commits a crime I should pay for it. Really? How does that even work? If I choose to pay for services rendered by "x" company, and "x" company irritates a hacker to the point that hacker disrupts "x" companie's service (and mine along with it). I should have expected this and be ok with it? Because Im equally guilty because I choose to have a service done by "x" company? Seriously?



So we cant entirely say that crackers, hackers or what else are always the evil and any other... a holy entity, doesnt work like that. We have to care for each others, thats the best way to prevent things like that.

This is definately a slippery slope. You are opening a pandora's box. In the lines of justifying crime because it is a natural reaction to a stimuli. You know... like "that girl deserved to get gropped because she was wearing a mini skirt and was 'asking for it'" So in your theory we should make all the girls wear overall pants and chastity belts in hopes of not provoking a pervert to assault her. You know. Because if she makes it too easy to assault she deserves to get assaulted and maybe perhaps she will have a better defense by wearing a million layers of clothing and a sign saying "i have the clap". :disapprove:

[Xenobia]

Vulnerability: You are always vulnerable, the whole world itself is a huge vulnerability. Just dont give to much opportunity, dont be stupid on giving opportunity. You are always vulnerable to death, its not avoidable to get ride of that vulnerability, but try to keep life as save as possible.

Deserve: There is no thing such as "deserve", because finally everyone is getting what they deserved. The rich will stay mentally unhappy, the poor will stay physically unhappy. The only one who can reach a high grade of happiness is the one paying focus on inner and outer shell. Beware, its a challenge in need of compassion.

Breaking itself: Is already kind of a criminal act, although a very small one with usualy few damage. However, the most innocent of the hackers are only using it in order to increase security of many different programs, aswell OS such as Archlinux. So the kind of hackers i tried to describe is the "middle value".

Breaking into my house and taking photos of my fridge: Well... i doubt you can do that without eating from it, so you caused damage. If you truly was able to avoid eating from it and only took snapshots then i wonder what you are going to do with. In term you do nothing, then ok... i may be able to live with. But if you use it in order to cause any kind of damage to me, then i will get mad. However, in term you act same such as those hackers, then they will NOT use it in order to cause damage.

About that girl wearing a sexy skirt: Either you are gonna cause damage or not. You may not be able to imagine the damage you are causing by your violation but the damage can be extremely huge and she will probably never forget in the whole life and always worry... till the end of life. She might look sexy and "easy bait" but it is causing damage. Now... visiting your PC isnt necessarely causing damage, thats a very clear difference.

Daddy Surely is wise man.

[RLbitClassica]

Disregarding the argument above me, I still think ALL games should be F2P. I understand that the monthly fee will be for regular content updates, but that makes me feel uneasy. When I go out to eat, I buy what food I want and I eat it. If I want more, I buy more, Plain and simple. I DON'T pay the cooks at said restaurant a monthly fee in hopes they will consistently provide me with food I like. Same goes for PSO2. I don't want to pay monthly fees for content updates I'm not interested in. I also don't want to cough up $10 a month just to play with others online. That cost should be included in the initial purchase of the game. I just want to waste countless hours in a hack-n-slash RPG with my buddies. Why does there have to be monthly fee bullshit?

[Macman]

Disregarding the argument above me, I still think ALL games should be F2P. I understand that the monthly fee will be for regular content updates, but that makes me feel uneasy.It should, but not for the reasons you specified. :-P

[Ryna]

I'm locking this topic since the arguments and comments have become personal in nature.