Have you ever....just stopped playing?

[Gun96]

Not like hating the game or anything,but just taking a really long break from it. :-?

[Ce'Nedra]

I did, from the moment the EU servers got shut down till recently.

[Powder Keg]

Yep, pretty much lost interest when we found out about 360's missing data with no news about it in months. It's been fun but at this point it's time to move on...plenty of good games to play out there.

[Ryno]

yes, i took a 2 month break and played again.

[Gun96]

I want to get back in playing but for now i cant pay for it D:, buuut i still have pspo2 to play :/

[darkante]

I haven´t touched since i got PSP2 US and after that converting my save to PSP2:I.
It gotta have a drive if i´m gonna bother.

And Infinity have plenty to go with.
Even if i don´t understand JP.

[Gun96]

The only reason i'd go back to it. Is if PSU was f2p but we all know thats not going to happen.
Or if they ported on ps3. (I have both ps3 and 360 but i prefer PS3).

[darkante]

I can never go back now.
It´s either Inf. or PSO/PSO2 for me.

[Gun96]

I pray to the Phantasy Star gods that PSO2 will be on consoles.
And hopefully ill be able to buy a sexy comp for the game.

[Keilyn]

Yes, happens a lot.

I still play PSU but I took a break from it, because when you play the same game over again it gets boring after a while. However a time came I got tired of gaming altogether. I took a very long vacation where I figuratively disappeared off the face of the Earth.

I took a very long trip, and got away from everything and everyone I knew...

Got away from my friends, my family, my profession and life....returned to a much rougher life for a while away. It was a simple life where I also got away from any belief system or moral system as well...as I needed to get away from it all.....and I stayed away from around three to four months. Only person I kept in contact with was my girlfriend.......

I stayed with those who invited me to come, and I thought I disgraced myself because my views were so different....but I was told in the very end I was always welcomed. I was told that people need to learn to let go who they are completely at times, that I was able to...but they weren't sure if I once I let go I would want to return.

I then returned and a week later I went to my Girlfriend's place and stayed for a while. The long nights and conversations were nice...

When I returned home,

I remember It felt so foreign to me...I was like

"wow, this is how I live? why....?" and first thing I did was clear a lot of stuff out and later on I was able to get back to my games.

"The more you think you know, the easier it is for wisdom to make you realize that you know nothing and that is a pretty thing because it gives life its purpose and meaning"

[Noblewine]

I would sometimes take break depending on if we got an update or if someone was on. I neglected some game I have and would play those instead.

[Gun96]

Thats a lot said Keilyn. I think i'll have one of those days where i just want to stay isolated from everyone and just tell them all to leave me alone. Video games just aren't exciting as they used to be in ye old days (even though i'm 16 lol) but i still remember getting my first dreamcast and playing pso and sonic adventure. *sigh* I feel your pain at times.

[pikachief]

Yea everytime school comes around I just suddenly drop off the face of guhral for about 3-4 months, then return for 2-3 months then disappear again :P

[PrinceBrightstar]

About a year before US PC/PS2 closed. I saw it coming that far away. I'm slowly coming back with PSO2 on the horizon.

[Ryno]

i saw Banana_Ann come back online on JP servers because of PSO2 . :D


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/xl2YClNx/Valentine10.jpg

[Gun96]

Argh! I can pay for PSU now since i got my own debit card,but idk if my parents would let me use it D:

[Proto07]

Here's a rough timeline of me playing and quitting.

October 2006 - April 2009
October 2009 - March 2010.
June 2011 - August 2011
-Switch to JP Servers-
October 2011 - Present

That's addiction ladies and gentlemen.
I think I'd still be playing on the 360 side if my friends were still there. The last time I logged in I was teary-eyed when I saw my friends list completely empty. ;_;

[Gun96]

My heart will break when(if) the PSU servers get taken down. But im kinda not worried as much since theres PSO2 and i added everyone on xbox live from PSU :D

[bupjo]

after playing Phantasy Star Portable 2/Infinite (i don't know a lick of japanese) playing PSU on 360 feel like a step backwards...in edition to PSU 360 having reskins, events i played since 2006/2007 (Firebreak will probably always be my favorite time i had on PSU) no way in hell i'd come back to PSU.

no word if we're even getting PSO in the states, but if so i'd like it to be on consoles too, but PC would probably be better considering most of the console are at the end of their lifespan which usually is 5 to 6 yrs. by the time PSO even thinks about coming here how long will that particular console be supported by Sega once the new versions of Xbox or Playstation (playstations historically have lasted at least 10 years) comes out.

i've played games since 1985 when the Nintendo first appeared, well and Atari before then so, '82/'83ish...if i compared games of today to back then, even with all the nice graphics and crap, to me games were more FUN and didn't feel like "work" or something you felt i bought this game so i guess i better complete it. plus arcades were awesome times i spent with my family as a kid.

when a game keeps you up all night and you don't want to stop playing, that's a FUN game (Zelda: A Link To the Past Super Nintendo for me) the last game i played that i really really had FUN playing was Batman: Arkham Asylum. and i play a lot games and i own game consoles from NES to PS3... Dreamcast is my all-time favorite system. so i'm looking forward to the new Batman game.

as far as stopping playing games at all...well that's about to happen soon as i have a kids on the way. so i'm trying to get all my game playing in now before she arrives.

[Gun96]

Congratulations bupjo. And wish you the best of luck for your (new) family :D

[EvilMag]

After playing PSP2, I never looked at PSU again until I decided to dick around in Offline mode.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

no word if we're even getting PSO in the states, but if so i'd like it to be on consoles too, but PC would probably be better considering most of the console are at the end of their lifespan which usually is 5 to 6 yrs.
But if you build your MMO around a console, you end up with junk like Final Fantasy XIV and PSU that have hard times moving forwards (well PSU has already completed it's 5 year run so that's ok really). Also congrats on your new family

On topic, I took a few months break from PSU, played almost every f2p MMO available on nexon and hangame whilst waiting for XIV to come out, played XIV waiting for it's 'miracle patch' but gave up before 1.19 actually came out, it just wasn't worth it. ^_^
That game was/is absolutely broken beyond belief, thank goodness PSU didn't have a console version that came out 2 years after the release of the broken PC version. ^_^
After XIV I settled for Divina (http://dn.gamania.co.jp/entrance/index.aspx) (Unlike XIV, the battle system actually works!) and waiting for the beta of Tiara Concerto (http://tc.gamania.co.jp/) to start, these will tide me over until PSO2! ^_^

Looking at the current state of PSUJP, it's a mere shadow of it's former self (reduced from 40 universes to 8, which are never full) and I can't imagine why people still pour money into grinding their weapons when they know that PSO2 is coming... Clothes I can understand, otaku are perverts ^_^

That said, I can't completely quit since I still have alot of old friends that play, and it's useful for organising events such as player auctions and portable parties. Glorified chat system. ^_^

Oh, and btw I have a Masters in science and MUSIC ^_^

[Selphea]

Have you ever...

...felt like a plastic bag?

[Keilyn]

Sure....

Each time I see an American Political Debate in an Election, I know I will be treated by a paper bag. ^_^

[Sinue_v2]

But if you build your MMO around a console, you end up with junk like Final Fantasy XIV and PSU that have hard times moving forwards

You can't blame Final Fantasy XIV's failures on the planned PS3 release. After all, FFXI came out on the PS2 and ended up being both moderately successful and wasn't hindered in future expansions. Nor did it stymie the PC version, as FFXI remained one of the most popular MMO's over much of it's lifespan.

Furthermore as to PSU; well, as to gameplay mechanics and longevity, the series has done far better on the PSP system which is only a step-between the PS and PS2 in terms of power. Yet PSP2/Infinity remain the definitive version of PSU. The online infrastructure in the west was botched pretty good, but that's more of an issue of management and customer service. They did a great job of handling the JP Infinity's online infrastructure, including even the cash-shop and occasional download content/missions.

Many of my complaints about PSU have been rectified by the portable version, mainly because it's a whole and complete game as is, and PSU - due to dated design and content restrictions, has always felt more like a stripped down portable game - even when it was only available to non-portable platforms.


There's nothing inherent about consoles, especially current gen consoles which have analogues for most major PC components, that limit their ability to sustain a profitable and well managed MMO. Most of the issues revolve around simply not having had the market proven viable, and online infrastructure compromises. But MS/Sony/Nintendo can change their policies... that has nothing to do with their hardware... and viability is merely a matter of waiting for someone to make an MMO on a console that takes off and becomes extremely popular.

FPS's used to only be any good on PC's, until Quake III/UT for DC, Halo, and GoldenEye proved otherwise. Adventure games used to only ever any good on PCs, until Tomb Raider and Resident Evil found their niche. RPGs were only ever a niche side-market on consoles (at least in the west) despite the moderate success SSI, Bethesda, and Origin (among others) had in the PC market with their D&D, Elder Scrolls, and Ultima legacies. Yet Final Fantasy VII turned console/JRPGs into a major genre that could make or break a hardware platform nearly overnight. This happens fairly regularly... so it remains surprising that people simply write off consoles as being incapable of sustaining a decent MMO.


I think most of the backlash to the idea of MMO's on consoles is largely based on prejudice, misdirection of blame, or a lack of vision. PC's are a great platform, especially if you like to mod, develop, or tweak your games performance. But they aren't endowed with any special utility inherently unique to them which is vital to the development and success of an MMO. Porting current PC MMO's to consoles may be challenging, especially from an interface perspective, because their development is adapted to a market in which they are the premiere MMO platform. Once it's proven viable on consoles, design paradigms will shift. Quake III DC sucked unless you had the special Keyboard and Mouse... but after Halo, FPS control schemes and controllers have become adapted to provide enough utility that KB/M support for console FPS's isn't even considered worth exploring.

-------------------

As for the thread topic, yeah, until I got PSP I would only play PSU in short bursts. I would mostly just run it and idle while I engaged in other activities. Then I'd get into a play-streak lasting about 3-weeks to a month and a half, then walk away from it again... even missing major events there towards the end. After shutting down the PC version, I did briefly play regularly while I tried to rebuild my characters on the 360 version... but it was all just the same shit and annoyances that kept me idling on the PC, so when my leveling progress started getting slower around 80~100, the thrill of progress was no longer strong enough to keep my interest.

PSP2, however, has been holding my interest fairly well - even with running it predominantly offline. I'm far more apt to talk myself into just a few more runs in search of some elusive weapon. Hunting boards and materials is just... shit, and unexciting. The rush of seeing a sparkling rainbow box containing some spectacular death machine with no assembly required is definitely the way to go.

[Crysteon]

Sure....

Each time I see an American Political Debate in an Election, I know I will be treated by a paper bag. ^_^

Paper? Woot...that's "flammable" (I dunno...that's the way it makes sense to me)

@OnTopic: Yeah, I've taken breaks myself, mostly trying other games for brief periods or simply resting from the gaming environment and dedicating myself to life 24/7.

[Keilyn]

You can't blame Final Fantasy XIV's failures on the planned PS3 release. After all, FFXI came out on the PS2 and ended up being both moderately successful and wasn't hindered in future expansions. Nor did it stymie the PC version, as FFXI remained one of the most popular MMO's over much of it's lifespan.

Furthermore as to PSU; well, as to gameplay mechanics and longevity, the series has done far better on the PSP system which is only a step-between the PS and PS2 in terms of power. Yet PSP2/Infinity remain the definitive version of PSU. The online infrastructure in the west was botched pretty good, but that's more of an issue of management and customer service. They did a great job of handling the JP Infinity's online infrastructure, including even the cash-shop and occasional download content/missions.

Many of my complaints about PSU have been rectified by the portable version, mainly because it's a whole and complete game as is, and PSU - due to dated design and content restrictions, has always felt more like a stripped down portable game - even when it was only available to non-portable platforms.


There's nothing inherent about consoles, especially current gen consoles which have analogues for most major PC components, that limit their ability to sustain a profitable and well managed MMO. Most of the issues revolve around simply not having had the market proven viable, and online infrastructure compromises. But MS/Sony/Nintendo can change their policies... that has nothing to do with their hardware... and viability is merely a matter of waiting for someone to make an MMO on a console that takes off and becomes extremely popular.

FPS's used to only be any good on PC's, until Quake III/UT for DC, Halo, and GoldenEye proved otherwise. Adventure games used to only ever any good on PCs, until Tomb Raider and Resident Evil found their niche. RPGs were only ever a niche side-market on consoles (at least in the west) despite the moderate success SSI, Bethesda, and Origin (among others) had in the PC market with their D&D, Elder Scrolls, and Ultima legacies. Yet Final Fantasy VII turned console/JRPGs into a major genre that could make or break a hardware platform nearly overnight. This happens fairly regularly... so it remains surprising that people simply write off consoles as being incapable of sustaining a decent MMO.


I think most of the backlash to the idea of MMO's on consoles is largely based on prejudice, misdirection of blame, or a lack of vision. PC's are a great platform, especially if you like to mod, develop, or tweak your games performance. But they aren't endowed with any special utility inherently unique to them which is vital to the development and success of an MMO. Porting current PC MMO's to consoles may be challenging, especially from an interface perspective, because their development is adapted to a market in which they are the premiere MMO platform. Once it's proven viable on consoles, design paradigms will shift. Quake III DC sucked unless you had the special Keyboard and Mouse... but after Halo, FPS control schemes and controllers have become adapted to provide enough utility that KB/M support for console FPS's isn't even considered worth exploring.

-------------------

As for the thread topic, yeah, until I got PSP I would only play PSU in short bursts. I would mostly just run it and idle while I engaged in other activities. Then I'd get into a play-streak lasting about 3-weeks to a month and a half, then walk away from it again... even missing major events there towards the end. After shutting down the PC version, I did briefly play regularly while I tried to rebuild my characters on the 360 version... but it was all just the same shit and annoyances that kept me idling on the PC, so when my leveling progress started getting slower around 80~100, the thrill of progress was no longer strong enough to keep my interest.

PSP2, however, has been holding my interest fairly well - even with running it predominantly offline. I'm far more apt to talk myself into just a few more runs in search of some elusive weapon. Hunting boards and materials is just... shit, and unexciting. The rush of seeing a sparkling rainbow box containing some spectacular death machine with no assembly required is definitely the way to go.


All of this talk of consoles and computers, and you fail to mention that tablet PCs are dominating in the gaming market these days. I can play Dragon Nest on a Tablet PC and get a good framerate as well as pay for an always-on internet connection too.

In fact, the last time I went into the campus gaming club I saw the majority of people there with their tablet PCs playing an MMO or some other cool game on there. I also saw few hand handhelds like Playstation Portables..On person had a Nintendo 3DS.

Most people there owned a PC and they also owned at least one console....be it a PS3 or an Xbox 360 (or even a Wii.)

So that you know, RPGs are brought to consoles and its true you can bring MMORPGs to consoles and even update them because you have a Hard Drive, but those MMORPGs will have to appear during the first 3 years of the console and be maintained to keep supporting the hardware of a console.

Of course one main reason why people won't bring MMOs to a console is not because of the market as there is a HIGH DEMAND for MMOs on consoles, but actually the Console Market itself...Specially Japanese Consoles...

You think consoles are a "Godsend?" well here is a newflash on what you have to pay Sony for making a game on PS3:

~Royalty Fees for using Sony's Copy-Protection Encryption Technology
~Royalty Fees for using Sony's Patented Blu-Ray Technology as the delivery medium.
~Royalty Fees for Developing a Game on their Console.

If its an MMORPG:

~The monthly fee itself is part of the revenue made and thus a fee has to be paid to Sony in effect for having the game open....

The only real company that profits from having an MMORPG on a Playstation itself is Sony itself....

Notice how SEGA ditched the PS2 in all markets of the game, and retained the 360.

Thats because on 360 if I develop a game I have the freedom to develop a game and I only pay a royalty fee if the game is actually successful past a sales point. They don't take from every single monthly fee revenue that is out there and they offer training programs and development kits to develop on a 360 FOR FREE.

Aside from actually paying these fees to SONY, you also have to convince them your game will be profitable and at any time Sony can say "sorry, you don't have a right to release your game on our console" and there you go....bye bye game project and development, so of course you will spend money bribing Sony Officials and affiliates to try to convince them your game is worth being developed on the console.

SONY gets its ass kicked because they DO NOT WANT TO LOSE people to the 360, so what developers do is actually say "We will develop for the 360 and we don't need Sony" and then SONY says "we surrender, you can develop your game for our platform and release without resistance"

In the Xnox 360 existing, SONY has to find new and interesting ways to prove they are dogs like downgrading their consoles and resorting to underhanded tricks against their consumers to stay on top.

People develop games on PC because although there is PIRACY on PC, I guarantee you will actually keep more profits even with Piracy on a successful game on a PC than you will developing the very same game on a Sony Console due to all the fees you actually pay....

PCs can also change and be upgraded. When technology changes, PCs compensate for that change. When Technology Changes you have to either buy a new console or add-on for a console and although consoles get cheaper to manufacture, they don't get a performance upgrade for their life cycles....

So its not about "lack of vision"

I can say "What vision?"

Why would I want to develop an MMORPG or port it to a Japanese Console with the way Japanese are and their egoism? Specially when I can deploy a game through Korea or China PCs and Tablet PCs and have a much more global support.

I mean shit....I have a PS3 Developers kit on I am sorry...the restrictions on creating a piece of software are so great that you will have to be a masochist to actually even think on writing.

Ok, for you computer scientists....

Developing on a playstation 3 is like saying:

"I am going to refuse to use C++ or Java to write a game...or even unrealscript...and I will write my entire game in either Assembly or Pascal with a million restrictions on how I can write it....."

I mean shit.....I rather try to write a game in Fortran than develop on the PS3.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

You can't blame Final Fantasy XIV's failures on the planned PS3 release.
Yes you can, the whole menu based sytem found in XIV reeks of "made for controller, built around PS3, hey what's this PC thinamajiggy why would you ever need to use hotkeys? (enjoy your paid beta!)".

Try chatting whilst synthing or gathering, you'll find yourself fighting with the chat cursor cause it f**king resets after every action, try opening more than one menu at once, you CAN'T.


After all, FFXI came out on the PS2 and ended up being both moderately successful and wasn't hindered in future expansions.
Yeah, over nine years ago when there was like, no competition at all... The online gaming market has become saturated by f2p cash shop MMOs in the meantime. In fact, the whole 'pay monthly fee' thing is so out of date I can't believe SE thought they'd actually make money by charging extra for characters and retainers.

And then Sony phases out the internal HDD from slimline models, and you either pray that your existing PS2 doesn't break down, or get a PC copy.


They did a great job of handling the JP Infinity's online infrastructure, including even the cash-shop and occasional download content/missions.
Yeah it's called Playstation Network, something that didn't exist back when PSU came out. Alot easier to use an existing system for content delivery than to build one entirely from scratch.

And then, hackers come along and take PSN out and you can't play anyway Playstation Notwork!

EDIT: I can feel the ANGER in your post Keilyn! Give in to the dark side!

[EvilMag]

Oh great, not this shit again.

[Keilyn]

@Lina

I love the Dark-Side......

In fact, did you know in almost every star wars game I play as Sith Lords or Empire and have fun killing Jedi and Rebel Scum? ^_^

Me: haha! So much for Home-1
Crappy Player: OMFG, I thought my 10 blockade runners could kill your star destroyer
Crappy Player 2: You serious?
Me: Since we're in the middle of nowhere and no planets are in sight and I love you to death, a gift!

*fires death star super-laser at blockage runner.....*

yeah! xmas comes twice this year for crappy rebels who think they can outdo the movies. ^_^

[Retehi]

I'm in that weird part of the PSOW forums it seems.

[Sinue_v2]

Oh great, not this shit again.

Yes, yes it's this shit again.

I spent way too fucking long on this post, but I'm down with the sickness today, so I got nothing better to do. Spoiler-boxed for easy ignoring by those who don't give a damn.

Keilyn.
[spoiler-box]

you fail to mention that tablet PCs are dominating in the gaming market these days.

I wouldn't say they're dominating so much as carving out a very lucrative additional market. Tablet games haven't replaced the demand for major releases on traditional platforms (PC & Consoles). It has, however, brought more and more new gamers into the market in addition to PC/Console gamers who want to make the most of their new device. If anything, tablets are much more of a threat to portable game consoles.

Most tablets are really not much more than laptops with expanded functionality, and they suffer from the same weaknesses as laptops - some of which are shared with consoles (like by and large a closed hardware configuration with little or no upgrade options). The iPad & iPad 2 have comparatively low system specs and run Apple's proprietary OS. The games sold on it are largely developed specifically for that platform (and take advantage of the interface options) or are low budget lightweight ports.


I can play Dragon Nest on a Tablet PC and get a good framerate as well as pay for an always-on internet connection too.

That's nice... but what's your argument? Tablets don't really factor into the discussion, especially since we're discussing PSO2 which isn't being developed with tablet capabilities in mind. Most home PC's don't have many of the nicer features of tablets either, and the analogous interface devices don't have enough market saturation to bother considering compatibility. So most MMO's and PSO2 isn't going to take advantage of those features, such as touch screens, anyhow.

I want to also point out that many of the smaller tablet computers like the iPad 2 and Samsung Galaxy Tab are incapable of playing virtually all current MMOs, with perhaps an exception for some of the older ones like WoW with a crippled interface only after heavy modification.


but those MMORPGs will have to appear during the first 3 years of the console and be maintained to keep supporting the hardware of a console.

More towards the 3 year mark considering the installed consumer base of a new console doesn't generally reach desirable sell-through numbers necessary to sustain a genre like MMOs until 2-3 years after it's release. After 3 years, it's pretty well established how the platform will preform, and most of the kinks/tricks/and limitations of the system are well explored. The limitations of the Wiimote not fulfilling the hype many developers still fresh to the system were building. Similarly, compare ES: Oblivion to Skyrim, and it's very noticeably what difference inexperience with the hardware and the crunch to meet an early release schedule can have.


Of course one main reason why people won't bring MMOs to a console is not because of the market as there is a HIGH DEMAND for MMOs on consoles

I don't think it's all THAT high, considering almost none of them really break sales records or gain much hype in the media. I think many MMO players are anticipating a good release on consoles eventually, but if you're a fan of the genre, you tend to already have a decent PC where the market is currently clustered and where the interface is adapted towards and well established. Most console gamers tend to be more interested in Halo, Battlefield, or Fallout than in WoW or DC Universe.


You think consoles are a "Godsend?"

No, but I do consider them to be a viable platform choice which is stymied more by frame of mind (customers and corporate figures alike) than it is by it's perceived weaknesses.


points on licensing/royalty/copyright fees

Only Sony profits from MMOs on their systems? Aside from painting their chunk of the sales pie a bit too draconian, were that the case, then why has anyone even tried? There's been a few MMO releases and mostly on Sony consoles... even in territories where their system lags noticeably behind in sales. The insinuation invoked about the mental competence (or lack thereof) of these companies in determining acceptable risk and profit margin is astounding.


Notice how SEGA ditched the PS2 in all markets of the game, and retained the 360.

The PS2 did not require or support a log-in to the PSN, and PSU's servers were privately run and maintained in that instance. Sony was not, in any way that I'm aware, entitled to a portion of the monthly access fees generated. The PS2 was dropped in the US/EU along with the PC version due to it's long trend of poor performance. In Japan, the PS2 version was canceled due to the incompatibility of the old hardware to accommodate the planned expansions. While PSO v.2 for the DC and PSU AoTI for the PS2 shows that a HDD isn't necessary to have an update, there was no longer a market large enough left which could recoup their expenditures... nor many outlets willing to dedicate shelf space to it.


Thats because on 360 if I develop a game I have the freedom to develop a game and I only pay a royalty fee if the game is actually successful past a sales point. They don't take from every single monthly fee revenue that is out there and they offer training programs and development kits to develop on a 360 FOR FREE.

Provided that's the case, then that doesn't explain why more MMO's are attempted on Sony consoles than on Microsoft. Regardless of how generous their royalty models are, Xbox live is a largely closed network that imposes far more restrictions on certification and quality control. This isn't an insurmountable obstacle by any means... but it does make MMO developers hesitant of their platform when considering a dip into the console market.


People develop games on PC because although there is PIRACY on PC, I guarantee you will actually keep more profits even with Piracy on a successful game on a PC than you will developing the very same game on a Sony Console due to all the fees you actually pay....

So why are there cross-platform titles on the PS3? What you're saying doesn't make any financial sense... if Sony is charging development houses so much just to have the game on their system that they can't make a decent profit, then the installed userbase no longer is a tool to project potential profits, but rather the gravity of the losses they may incur if the game is a hit on the system. Were what you are describing the way things were, you wouldn't see Battlefield 3 on the PS3, nor Fallout NV, or anything.

And since breaking even, or just above even, is typically not seen as being worth the risk of capital, I can infer that those 55 million installed units are generating substantial profits. More than enough for developers to entice them into port their software over.


PCs can also change and be upgraded. When technology changes, PCs compensate for that change. When Technology Changes you have to either buy a new console or add-on for a console and although consoles get cheaper to manufacture, they don't get a performance upgrade for their life cycles....

And while that's certainly a strength of the platform from a user-end performance point, game engines rarely - if ever - get overhauled for expansions to take advantage of the advances in hardware. Computer hardware has advanced significantly since WoW was released, but it's minimum system specs have not changed significantly. New drivers and plug-ins can be incorporated to boost rendering performance and add effects... but that's not beyond a console's capability either.

(Also, as said above, laptops and tablets are largely closed hardware architectures in similar fashion to consoles. If your laptop's graphics card fries, or it's sound cards asplode, or if it's USB ports start sparking... you can't just replace the components which are integrated into the board. If you want to upgrade your ram beyond what your mobo allows, you have to buy a whole new system. Some, especially the smaller tablets, have no expansion ability and run proprietary OS's incompatible with most available PC software.


So its not about "lack of vision" I can say "What vision?"

The vision necessary to imagine an environment conducive to MMO's, what the obstacles are to their success, and identifying which of those are truly problems and which are just biases based on past failures or perceived shortcomings. Which problems represent significant hurdles that either prevent their success... or can they be circumvented in negotiation or applying the right innovations.

I think most major MMO developers are expecting the market to expand to consoles in a big way, but they are wary and hesitant to dive in without that lightning bolt of proven market/design strategy some trailblazer opportunist will eventually create that they can mimic.


I mean shit.....I rather try to write a game in Fortran than develop on the PS3.

Yeah, but the PS3 (and the PS2) have been known to be notoriously difficult to code for, for quite a long time. That's one of the advantages Microsoft used to thrust the Xbox into the market given it's well known (almost off the shelf) PC architecture. Yet the PS2 was highly successful, with the PS3 holding it's own against the competition. It may be a bitch to code for, especially if you're not well experienced, but it's far from impossible or unprofitable.
[/spoiler-box]

Fo-Lina
[spoiler-box]

Yes you can, the whole menu based sytem found in XIV reeks of "made for controller, built around PS3, hey what's this PC thinamajiggy why would you ever need to use hotkeys? (enjoy your paid beta!)".

Try chatting whilst synthing or gathering, you'll find yourself fighting with the chat cursor cause it f**king resets after every action, try opening more than one menu at once, you CAN'T.

Well, I haven't played it yet, but usually complaints (my own included) about a PC title's interface being designed around a controller interface tend to be little more than bias against the unfamiliar and unconventional. Unless the game is actually broken by it in some fashion. Which usually tends to just happen in ports where they are trying to shoehorn the functionality of existing software's input devices into a totally different device. Wii has a lot of these issues with some of their crappier ports.

In any case, it sounds more like an issue with Square's design choices than with the PS3's hardware. They could well have taken the easy route and gimped the controller function while requiring at least a keyboard via the PS3's USB ports. That approach has it's own problems, namely stagnation by refusing to risk innovation in favor of working solutions that have a poor history of adoption.


Yeah, over nine years ago when there was like, no competition at all...

I was referring to it in the context of it's success on the PS2 and Xbox 360 platforms. At the time it came out, there was a bit of competition from the still active PSO GameCube/Xbox servers, Everquest Online Adventures, and the hype of True Fantasy Live Online.


And then Sony phases out the internal HDD from slimline models, and you either pray that your existing PS2 doesn't break down, or get a PC copy.

That was kind of a dick move, yeah, and the whole HDD fiasco for the PS2 was botched to fuck. I still suspect many of the issues with Final Fantasy XI's release in the west has to do with Sony wanting give their own MMO as much support as possible. It didn't need the HDD, and EQ was still pretty big at the time, but it was obvious that it's userbase was just using it as a stopgap for FFXI.

Anyhow, that's a valid point... the PS2's hardware did limit FFXI in the west, while JP players got a two year head start and (I think) a USB HDD for the PS2Slim. But that was also the generation that MS pretty much standardized hard drives on consoles. That hasn't been an issue for years, and still really isn't even on consoles that have no HDD thanks to the emergence of cheap high capacity SD cards.

Still, the PS2/360 versions of Final Fantasy XI were steady sellers (indicated by their expansion sales and Xbox Live data) and achieved moderate success, even if short of what was initially projected. It was enough to apparently push the control interface for FFXIV into a more controller friendly format in anticipation of a console release.


Yeah it's called Playstation Network, something that didn't exist back when PSU came out. Alot easier to use an existing system for content delivery than to build one entirely from scratch.

They've been building them from scratch for the past 10 years, since PSO on the DC. I don't see what you're getting at. Even with the network infrastructure in place, Sega/Alfa System still had to make use of it and design the online interface themselves as part of the game engine. For instance, PSP2 simply dumps you at create/join menu from which you choose your party or parameters and then are teleported to Clad 6. PSP2 Infinity added in persistent lobbies where you can meet up with others prior to joining a game... much like PSO. PSP 1 had no online infrastructure, only Ad Hoc. These are Sega's designs and decisions... not Sony's. Sony is more involved in account management and authentication, like the activation code to enable online play.


And then, hackers come along and take PSN out and you can't play anyway Playstation Notwork!

Sony has had issues with downtime, but they're also not the only console candidate. Xbox Live hasn't had any major issues with security that I'm aware of despite the service being around for nearly a decade. It's also had remarkably little downtime. Then again, Live isn't free, so they don't have the excuse of "you get what you pay for".

Further, while Sony's laughable excuse for online security measures certainly invited a major incident requiring extended downtime, the attacks were also unprecedented in scale and severity. The console itself has also been lain bare thanks to the acquisition of their authentication codes. While I won't make excuses for their failures, I similarly can't hold it up as indicative in any way of the norm. Especially when my own experience with MMO's had been littered with downtime due to borking updates, cyber attacks, or just plain neglect. PSU for the PC was notorious for having their billing server going down before major events and staying out for weeks.

Were it not for the extension to Max Attack G, I would have missed all but the last three days of the event. So your argument from downtime doesn't have much of an impact with me, especially when the game triggering all this PC vs. Console discussion is an online Phantasy Star game - a series which has their own sordid history of service.
[/spoiler-box]

[Keilyn]

If you wish for me to explain how cross-platforming works as I had to take a 500-Level Course in Cross-Platform design and concepts, just let me know. I will tell you that was one of the most difficult courses I had ever taken in my entire life.

I will be very simple and down to earth with you about it:

How about a PSU example? You want "Cross Platform" then look no further to Serafi-Senba. They are an extremely popular armor, not to be underestimated. They are balanced too...and many players (including myself) love those armors. You can common box 6 of them and only run the entire game with those armors...

You can go after Shijins, but they take a lot longer to get to...so the supply isn't there which is a very central issue to "cross-platforming"

So what makes "Serafi-Senba" a winner?

They drop like flies in events, they are balanced..boards are everywhere. They are affordable and can be bought in playershops anywhere in psu-jp.

"Cross Platforming" is good, but sometimes Quality is actually lost because it deals a lot with mass production and hoping that a wide audience makes an item popular.

Suppose you and I code a Japanese Style RPG and gear it towards teenagers. We spend three years doing it together and during that time Sony and Microsoft meet with us. Perhaps they liked our teaser video and angle.....and now it becomes a cross platform project. Oh wait, here comes nintendo....so now its everywhere.

This becomes a very large gamble actually....

If we analize the consoles:

Wii = more singleplayer games, more family oriented...more for kids.
360 = closer to western PC games, more hardcore and competitive, specially in xbox live
PS3 = more eastern oriented and we know japan would be interested in an jpn style RPG made my non-jpn...
PC = The platform we started on in programming a lot exists to make the dream come alive.

You can see that probably on the PS3 itself it has a chance to be successful, maybe it can market well on the PC....But there is a higher chance that it will fail and cause a profit loss on the 360 and Wii. The 360 crowd is more into active games and Wii has its reputation of being more family oriented....

So we have two choices....Either chance it and make it work by just releasing a quality product....or trying to cater to the other platforms.

Ok so we add a Chibi-version of an offline multiplayer and an online multiplayer...hoping it appeals to the Wii Crowd. We make the game more action oriented and direct hoping that the 360 crowd will buy into it...

At the same time, we actually take a little away from the PS3 because we are focusing more on working to make it successful in all platform. We give top graphics and input devices on PCs and textures to support high resolution and make the game look nice for the PC demand too.......

...Notice how much work that takes that now our focus is to make it successful rather than actually build a better game.

Now, we have another problem and I am sure we can speak from experiences regardless if you have or don't have a degree or experience ^_^. QUALITY CONTROL.

We have to handle bug testing for PS3, 360, Wii and then for PC we have to handle it for Intel, AMD, Nvidia and ATI (AMD/ATI) since there are differences....

...so we need a bigger staff, a larger budget.

Finally launch-day comes and we make a super large game...

We have to package it for four platforms...but on a PC we can do digital downloads as a more mainstream and common thing to save on costs. We have to make contracts with the stores that sell our games to have them sell our games. We have to also spend a lot more on advertising to send out the games....

I tried to be very general about it.........without getting too much into internals and technical stuff and judging by our chats here, I don't consider you to be a dummy or an idiot in any regard.

A cross-platform title can succeed in one or two platform, but fail miserably in others meaning a profit loss or minimal gains in the failed consoles....which means a loss for all that work done to release means that money has to come out from the profits of the successful launches in the other consoles...In short it can be detrimental...

Either case, its a gamble.

Ok as far as Phantasy Star goes....

I despise and loathe Sakai with a mighty passion. Sure, I like PSO and PSU and he had his hand in their artistic design (which I love), and sure I can like his work and all....but I hate what they did to the newmans. They went from being ORIGINAL to being GENERIC....

On the opposite ends of things....I absolutely love Rieko Kodama. She came up with the concept of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE of what PHANTASY STAR is. It was HER story and it was her own comics and illustration.....a work that came directly from her soul and idea, made into games. The early phantasy stars are from her.......Characters like Nei, Fal/Rika, Lutz/Rune, Wren and Demi...are her doing...

......and I remember when she worked with other game development companies and was RESPONSIBLE for the story behind the game "Skies of Arcadia" which was one of my favorite games of all time.

I remember her saying "when I was young and bothered.....I used to say 'Moons! Give me strength!' "

Consoles or Not (as I own a 360 and a PC) gaming doesnt really die in me. Its like a carnival for me......I can come in, Enjoy them and leave for eons! However the great thing to carnivals is that they always come back or pop up elsewhere for people to return to them. ^_^

[gundam0079]

stopped playin when ps2/pc servers shutdown and then rejoined jp in may 2011

[ThePendragon]

Yep. Right now, in fact. Haven't played in about three weeks. No idea when I will come back. Next event, most likely.

[WiZ1988]

I quit for a good 2 years. Then had the urge and started playing again on the 360. I quickly lost interest again and made the move to JP psu and have been playing for about a year now and more into it than when it first came out back in '06.

[AnonymousHat00]

yes i have and I'm currently still not playing. Not to mention Modern warfare 3 isnt going to help me get back on PSU.

[unicorn]

The game sucks and some of the players are obnoxious.

So yeah.

[Ezodagrom]

Let's see...during the time I played in the EU/NA PC/PS2 servers, I took a couple of 2 months or so breaks, once the servers were shutdown I didn't thought I would play this again, but started playing in the JP servers once the update 3rd was announced.
I wouldn't play it if it wasn't for the free course though, and I only play it occasionally too, I mostly play on events or to try a new mission.

[Sinue_v2]

Spoiler-boxed again for easy, convenient, and disposable not giving a fuck.

Keilyn:
[spoiler-box]

If you wish for me to explain how cross-platforming works

No need. I am familiar with the general principals and some of the challenges which accompany it.


How about a PSU example? You want "Cross Platform" then look no further to Serafi-Senba. They are an extremely popular armor, not to be underestimated. They are balanced too...and many players (including myself) love those armors. You can common box 6 of them and only run the entire game with those armors... You can go after Shijins, but they take a lot longer to get to...so the supply isn't there which is a very central issue to "cross-platforming"

So, cross platform development isn't viable for MMOs because Serafi-Senba are crazy awesome armors? I don't quite follow, but if I got your intention right, your suggesting that region/platform specific items and events either require tweaking to balance content (utility as well as availability). Well, generally with segregated servers this tends to be more of a maintenance issue your regional HQ, or whoever is managing the servers, can tweak as issues arise. Balancing economies in MMO's is horribly difficult anyhow, and even the slightest tweaks in the form of a boosts to a class specific gear or abilities can create a niche which when exploited may have the effect of nerfing other classes or destabilize the economy with all the demand for new gear and crafting mats. It's very hard to predict this stuff ahead of time, and most of it is done post-launch. Not really a cross-platform issue.

If the servers are unified, you may have issues stemming from IP licensing and promotional tie-ins. The platform a game is on can certainly be a restriction here, but no more than what you're already dealing with regionally. (I.E. PSP2 JP has a Pizza Hut secret area you can find with unique gear, while the NA version was just a generic "Pizza Shop".)

The common box issue in regard to Serafi-semba's is similarly an artifact of regional segregation and reduction of overhead on the sever-side of things. Platform had little influence in this case at least, since their projections of the PS2/PC JP versions preforming much better than the 360 version (who's players shared servers with NA/EU) were accurate.


"Cross Platforming" is good, but sometimes Quality is actually lost because it deals a lot with mass production and hoping that a wide audience makes an item popular.

Absolutely, and the argument that creating a cross platform MMO may reduce overall quality (especially if the title is not part of a pre-established franchise) as content budgets/staff are too often raided to shore up time/budget deficits in more vital departments (coding, bug testing, network infrastructure...)

Not really an argument against MMO's on consoles, but it does factor in.


Suppose you and I code a Japanese Style RPG and gear it towards teenagers. We spend three years doing it together and during that time Sony and Microsoft meet with us. Perhaps they liked our teaser video and angle.....and now it becomes a cross platform project. Oh wait, here comes nintendo....so now its everywhere.

Not necessarily. If "here comes nintendo" is indicating a new hardware release, I can't see the established release schedule being altered until either there are indications of how well the hardware will preform, or there is already good reason to expect reasonable profits vs. risk. If it means Nintendo is approaching us, that means they're looking to pad their library and will be picking up the tab either in part, in whole, or offering a strategic deal of some kind.


This becomes a very large gamble actually....

True, but that risk is also inherent in developing new IPs (especially innovative titles) in general... regardless of whether or not it's multiplatform or exclusive. Breaking even on a release is just as bad as a net loss, and most companies won't even bother finishing a title significant resources have already been allocated to if conditions change and they can't justify the risk. (HL: Blue Shift for the DC being and extreme example of this skittishness)

I also want to point out the obvious just so that it's out there, that developing a port typically costs substantially less than developing a unique IP. They're safer bets, and at times can bolster confidence in a riskier project for it's primary platform. That's part of why they've been so prolific for the last few generations as development costs have increased.

With the current state of the MMO market on consoles, it's not surprising that we're only seeing major players and those with a strong presence on consoles tentatively dipping their toes in.


(considering the consoles) You can see that probably on the PS3 itself it has a chance to be successful, maybe it can market well on the PC....But there is a higher chance that it will fail and cause a profit loss on the 360 and Wii. The 360 crowd is more into active games and Wii has its reputation of being more family oriented....

It actually seems more like risk assessment based on stereotypes, but yeah, that train of thought is present in a form; among other considerations.


...Notice how much work that takes that now our focus is to make it successful rather than actually build a better game.

It doesn't matter how much work is involved, just so long as the projected profits generated by cross platform development justify the added expenditures. Simultaneous cross-platform development may be an issue, but staggered releases and outsourcing can help alleviate the resource strain and maintain higher content ratios and quality control.


Now, we have another problem and I am sure we can speak from experiences regardless if you have or don't have a degree or experience ^_^. QUALITY CONTROL.

On the consumer end; I am certainly sympathetic to the suggestion that QC should be as thorough as possible. But looking at it from the business end, it's not necessarily of the highest concern. It's more important to get the game out on time and within budget. "Ship now, patch later... maybe.", as Bethesda says. Poor QC standards can certainly affect sales and public perception of your company, but the vast majority of bugs are going to be transparent to the majority of users anyhow. Fix the big obvious and frequently occurring bugs for the largest hardware demographics and what is left over are dealt with later or ignored. The resources that would be spent fixing annoyances and low-frequency errors are going to have far greater effectiveness if allocated elsewhere.


We have to package it for four platforms...but on a PC we can do digital downloads as a more mainstream and common thing to save on costs. We have to make contracts with the stores that sell our games to have them sell our games.

You still have to go through a third party distributor like Steam or Direct2Drive to handle the distribution and sales if you want to stay competitive. Especially if you're not going to do any packaging for retail. Granted, at least with Steam you get to keep the bulk of your gross as opposed to retail, but it's still not free.


I tried to be very general about it.........without getting too much into internals and technical stuff and judging by our chats here, I don't consider you to be a dummy or an idiot in any regard.

Right on, but I think maybe you were being too general since it seemed to me that you were mainly focusing on the scaling issues of increased expenditures and manpower to take on the extra workload. None of that is any kind of a real obstacle to a port or cross-platform release of an MMO on a console, however, because so long as the market is viable enough to produce a healthy profit margin - you have just transformed those additional resources into a long term investment that will continue to generate revenue from an increased subscriber base compounded over several months or years of user fees/cash-shop transactions.

The issue is whether or not the 55 million in installed userbase that each platform brings to the table can generate enough sales potential to justify risking those extra expenditures. Especially if you're going to try to innovate a new game interface that is functional on either platform. But hell, it's almost worse if you don't because while you're not opening yourself up to greater failure if your efforts fail you're still releasing a stagnant product that has little potential to grow beyond past failures.


I despise and loathe Sakai with a mighty passion.

As do I, though. I think I threatened to track him down and firebomb his house awhile back for what he did to Phantasy Star. It's just, who can afford those spur of the moment transcontinental assassination attempts these days what with the economy the way it is.


On the opposite ends of things....I absolutely love Rieko Kodama.

Yeah, she's awesome. As was Tohru Yoshida, who did character designs in PSII (he made Nei) and the story writer/co-director (with Reiko) for PSIV. He also helped on Skies of Arcadia's design team, tho not in any major capacity IIRC.
[/spoiler-box]

[Cloud Strife]

honestly sega does not deserve our money at all, i've decided to quit and never come back to it. you feel like a drug addict on this game for virtual s*** that could be a lot better. plus the fact that they're reskinning tons of new weapons that are supposed to look awesome did it for me really. gotta have tons of money in this game*sarcasm* i have stacks of meseta and i just dont care anymore. well, goodbye everyone, hopefully you will all see this too from my point of view if you dont already and quit this terrible game.

[Traize]

I come & go. I used to find I'd suddenly want to play PSU again after months of not doing so, play it for a few months, then go again, I seem to be approaching the go again stage now! Though to be honest, that's just me with games generally at the moment!

[Gun96]

Welp i'll have to see if ill even play another phantasy star when/if pso2 comes out to the us or if they fix somethings in PSU

[Rekreant]

Yeah its funny I just found these forums again today. I was playing pretty heavily on xbox, went to jp and got geared up there, and then all of a sudden I didnt play anymore. Not quite sure why that happened lol, but I think that was when I got back in to wow. Either way, thinking of going back to jp servers, but man is it annoying when you havent been immersed.

[rezakon]

Not like hating the game or anything,but just taking a really long break from it. :-?

I did it once, then the PC servers disappeared and I disappeared. When they announced PSO2 I was quite surprised and the new gameplay direction just staggered me with the fact they had finally learned something from the psp games.

I do take breaks from games, sometimes I don't come back because of motivation loss or the fact that I just hated the community.

I play games mostly to relax and partly socialize so with PSU on the PC the community was just "vile". I enjoyed my core group of mates and played with them nearly 95% of my time but some of the random bs that went down on those servers was so tedious it could make jesus kick a baby.

Each to their own though, some people like being virtual dicks.

[Mystil]

I haven't played PSU in about 2 years now. Just when I finally made some REAL friends, my interest was long gone.

[gundam0079]

just stopped 1`week ago. canceled my jp sub. time to play the waiting game for more content :P

[LK1721]

I quit probably a little more or less than a year ago. I don't really know what happened there, but I just quit. It could've been the mind numbing runs on White Beast, the fact that only 2-3 of my party-buddies still played anyway, and probably that I knew I had better things to do than grind solo for 3 hours every other day or so.

I do play PSP2 regularly, but never for more than 3-4 runs unless I'm fired up and getting lucky.

[MoonlightMyau]

i didn't play for about 7 months once. When I came back, virtually nothing had changed.