Nov. 10 Blog Update

[Mike]

The official blog (http://ameblo.jp/sega-psblog/entry-11072822162.html) was updated tonight. The main topic is one of the three points from July's media briefing: endless adventure. Sakai says that the "endless adventure" portion of PSO2 is derived from random fields, PSEs, interupt events, and multi-party areas. Random fields provide a play area that you can never get tired of. PSEs will eventually cause lots of enemies to spawn and give you a better change at that rare weapon. Interupt events can break up the duldrums. Multiparty areas allow you to meet new players and fight enemies with up to 12 people.

And there's some new pictures of a certain monkey enemy too.

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1789&pictureid=23926

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1568&pictureid=23925

[Macman]

Are those the rock-throwing monkeys from the alpha?

[Cast Soldier]

What is that phanton plant Darker thing?

[Serephim]

I was more intrigued by this actually:

[spoiler-box]http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/racaseal-Shino.jpg[/spoiler-box]

There was just something so subtle about the PSO designs that i really liked. You know, without all the meaningless hunks of metal and random floating spokes and spikes that are all over the casts today.

[Resanoca]

I was more intrigued by this actually:

[spoiler-box]http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/racaseal-Shino.jpg[/spoiler-box]

There was just something so subtle about the PSO designs that i really liked. You know, without all the meaningless hunks of metal and random floating spokes and spikes that are all over the casts today.I don't think they're safe to have if they're a choking hazard. D:

[Zorafim]

Why is a picture a choking hazard?

[NoiseHERO]

^ There's a toy gundam chick inside... D:

[Zorafim]

I want this toy gundam chick.

So this endless mission... From what I'm understand, it'll be like... Take one of PSO's random maps. Instead of a portal to take you to the next area, it'll connect the last room of part 1 and take you to the first area of part 2 without you realizing. Between specific transition points like this, one of the multiple random events might happen.

I like the idea of this. Especially if a party member can join in whenever, and just go.

Also, I gotta say that monkey is kinda neat. After PSU's Dr. Suess enemies (no offense to Dr. Suess), I'm kinda glad to see enemies like this.

[blace]

Gundam Chick:
http://gashaponrakuen.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/racasealshino.jpg?w=535&h=509
She's a real handful. Literally.

I doubt it'll take long to not be bored of running Forest over and over even with random events happening.

[Zorafim]

Gundam Chick:
http://gashaponrakuen.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/racasealshino.jpg?w=535&h=509
She's a real handful. Literally.

I doubt it'll take long to not be bored of running Forest over and over even with random events happening.

1: Freaking awesome.

2: What? I mean, um, you... What?

[blace]

Referring to Mike's post about random events and multiparty areas.

[Arkios]

I think the idea behind the "endless adventure" is cool in theory, but I'm pretty sure it will get repetitive as well.

I'm pretty sure that PSO had something similar to this. You had key landmarks that were always the same, but where you started on the map and some of the rooms could be in different spots/connected differently.

It sounds like the plan for PSO2 will be to have a ton of small pieces of the map that can be connected randomly. The problem though is that once you've seen an area, it doesn't matter if that area pops up in the beginning of the map or the end, it's still going to feel the same.

Example:
Play-through #1:
Area1 transitions to Area2 which then transitions to Area3 and finally ends with Area4.

Play-through #2:
Area1 transitions to Area7 which then transitions to Area2 and finally ends with Area10.

Even though the second play-through, the map was different and technically you could have thousands of different combinations... Area2 is still just Area2. It doesn't matter what order it goes in... it's going to feel the same even if technically it isn't in the same order.

I guess we'll see once it becomes playable, but that's my thought on the matter.

[RemiusTA]

The interrupt events need to be interesting, and not feel like a chore when they pop up.

And i'd be much more interested in that gundam toy whatever if more artwork was inside the box instead of that toy

[NoiseHERO]

I think the idea behind the "endless adventure" is cool in theory, but I'm pretty sure it will get repetitive as well.

I'm pretty sure that PSO had something similar to this. You had key landmarks that were always the same, but where you started on the map and some of the rooms could be in different spots/connected differently.

It sounds like the plan for PSO2 will be to have a ton of small pieces of the map that can be connected randomly. The problem though is that once you've seen an area, it doesn't matter if that area pops up in the beginning of the map or the end, it's still going to feel the same.

Example:
Play-through #1:
Area1 transitions to Area2 which then transitions to Area3 and finally ends with Area4.

Play-through #2:
Area1 transitions to Area7 which then transitions to Area2 and finally ends with Area10.

Even though the second play-through, the map was different and technically you could have thousands of different combinations... Area2 is still just Area2. It doesn't matter what order it goes in... it's going to feel the same even if technically it isn't in the same order.

I guess we'll see once it becomes playable, but that's my thought on the matter.

It really is nothing special if it's design that way...

Still a vast improvement over PSO's and definitely PSU's "JUST RELIVE A HALFASSED VERSION OF A STORY MAP FROM START TO FINISH THE SAME TIME OVER AND OVER TILL YOU WANT TO KILL SOMEONE."

[RemiusTA]

Map randomization wont mean shit if the random segments they load aren't interesting in themselves.

If they just randomly load the same segments in a different order, then it's barely going to feel different. They need to just have ALOT of different rooms modeled in a pool that piece themselves together, and then throw in a few rare formations that look completely different.

[kyuuketsuki]

Map randomization wont mean shit if the random segments they load aren't interesting in themselves.

If they just randomly load the same segments in a different order, then it's barely going to feel different. They need to just have ALOT of different rooms modeled in a pool that piece themselves together, and then throw in a few rare formations that look completely different.
Even though I've almost completely lost interest in Diablo 3 now, this is one of the few things that I think they're doing right (assuming it works the way it was layed out quite a while ago at one of the Blizzcons). There are lots of different rooms that can be put together in various ways, and you won't see the same assortment of rooms every play through. There are rare rooms that hold special encounters and/or treasure chests and/or a tough group of enemy spawns. Even the static outdoor areas have chunks that can be swapped out with random encounters, entrances to a special dungeon, etc.

I hope it will be similar in PSO2, rather than just largely the same "rooms" connected in a different sequence.

[Arkios]

I had forgotten about the fact that the weather in the environments can "dynamically" change as well. So I suppose everything all combined, it may actually break up the repetition of it all.

[NoiseHERO]

Have the rooms mirrored and rotated!

8 different entrances.

And yeah something tells me interrupt events will get "meh" pretty quick until they think of more, probably different throughout season events.

Speaking of which that reminds me of that whole "user created story" thing. They ever go back to that? I'm assuming it's just an exaggerated way of saying "You're the main character like PSO again and not that trope fest PSU made you go through."

[Macman]

If they just randomly load the same segments in a different order, then it's barely going to feel different.So, PSZ?

[Fenn777]

We don't know exactly how the random rooms will work though. Perhaps the basic areas can change slightly too; a new obstacle here or there coul change things up. And if enemies in each room can vary too, the same area will require a completely different strategy depending on the enemies you encounter each time around.

[ShadowDragon28]

Sounding pretty damn good to me.
Seems like the gameplay will be dang pretty fun, and getting a full effect PSE sounds like it could assist in rare hunting a lot.

I like how the Udan/Wurdan's look like a cross between the classic Booma's with some Gibbon traits.

[RLbitClassica]

We don't know exactly how the random rooms will work though. Perhaps the basic areas can change slightly too; a new obstacle here or there coul change things up. And if enemies in each room can vary too, the same area will require a completely different strategy depending on the enemies you encounter each time around.

So basically PSZ. On steroids.

[moorebounce]

I think the idea behind the "endless adventure" is cool in theory, but I'm pretty sure it will get repetitive as well.

My undersanding of the whole "Endless Adventure" thing is even in replayable quests that the maps will not be exactly the same every time. You can see in the videos up to this point that the areas are randomly stacked.

I'm sure people (my self included) will play PSO2 enough to come across the same map at some point. Depending on how many stackable areas there are for each map will determine how long you'll have to play it to run across the same combination of areas.

[RemiusTA]

The videos showed randomized environments, but i continously saw the same areas show up.

It's not a problem at all, because the areas looked interesting enough. But i just hope they get creative. We have yet to see any Indoor environments, but if they end up like that bullshit from PSU/PSP2 then i dont think it'll work out well in the end.

[Kent]

The inevitable sense of exploration and "adventure" that's going to come from randomly-generated dungeons is going to inevitably depend on how many individual prefabricated rooms there are and how interconnected they can really be. When you're landlocked in a game like PSO/U/Z, it gets relatively flat, even considering that some rooms had upper and lower floors and entrances to them. However, if they take real advantage of the verticality aspect they're introducing with jumping and aerial combat and put that to use when designing explorable elements, it's theoretically possible that whatever dungeon generation algorithm they create could essentially be spitting out condensed 3D Metroidvania-ish areas, that have room for a lot of optional areas, multiple pathways to get to the end, and some potentially-interesting area mechanics that players will run into.

You know, special conditions that could be satisfied that not only open up a separate path through the level, but perhaps to different exits that may lead to entirely-different areas than the "normal" exit. If they wanted to run with it, there's a lot they could do.

[RemiusTA]

So i just beat sonic generations. Now that Sonic Team is actually making badass games, i kind of wish they were working on this game. I did NOT expect my computer to be able to run this game so well, and it looks absolutely gorgeous. I stepped into Planet Wisp Modern and instantly thought of PSO's Forest stage, except pimped the eff out.


Nvidia Geforce 8600 (struggles to run FEAR), i3 processor, the game ran at a somewhat constant framerate and it defaulted to an HD resolution with all the settings on high (including Vsync), with the exception of Antialiasing, which my card recommended stay off. If i turn the two High settings to low (shadows and reflections) the framerate stays CONSTANT around 30ish and hits around 60 at the good parts, and if i down the resolution to 800 something then it can effectively stay around 60. This is somewhat astonishing to me, seeing as i had much more horrible framerate issues with PSU on the same computer. And PSU didn't have a fraction of the stuff to render as this game does.


Lets pray that this game is optimized to run well on computers, because lets face it, the graphics are pretty shitty. If Generations manage to run smooth through detailed environments at 300MPH then PSO2 should be able to maintain a CONSTANT framerate through any situation it puts you in.

[kyuuketsuki]

Lets pray that this game is optimized to run well on computers, because lets face it, the graphics are pretty shitty.They aren't groundbreaking, but they're pretty far from shitty.
If Generations manage to run smooth through detailed environments at 300MPH then PSO2 should be able to maintain a CONSTANT framerate through any situation it puts you in.Your reasoning is that if Sonic Generations, an entirely different sort of game, can run at 30 FPS with low settings and a low resolution on your computer, that PSO2 should therefore be able to run smoothly no matter how many enemies/players/spell effects/etc. are going on on-screen at once (along with any lag to the server)? I don't follow.

Granted, PSU was really poorly optimized. But, y'know, it was little more than a port from the PS2 version. Not a PC-exclusive like PSO2. I don't think it's sensible to dwell on PSU's technical shortcomings or assume that PSO2 will suffer from the same shortcomings.

[Selphea]

PSU shouldn't have trouble on an 8600GT o_O

[lostinseganet]

PSU shouldn't have trouble on an 8600GT o_O
I have one. I had problems at the higher resolutions. I think due to low VRAM.
I only had 256mb of VRAM.

[Selphea]

IIRC I ran at 1280x960 on an X1950 pro with max settings back then.

Pretty sure an 8600GT can do it at Frameskip 1.

PSU is a pretty awful port of a console game, so it handles animations by framerate rather than adjusting for dynamic framerates like other PC games. This means it's bound by minimum framerate, which defaults to 60FPS. If your graphics card dips below a noticeable threshold, say 80% of that, or 48FPS, then you get visible slowdown even though 48FPS is a very playable framerate. Frameskip 1 halves the minimum framerate threshold to 30FPS, which is a lot more manageable and still 0.03FPS faster than an NTSC TV.

Since PSO2 is native to PC, it probably won't have this problem.

[Macman]

Didn't the PS2 version run at 30FPS anyway?

[Noblewine]

Wow the art looks great. fight enemies with up to 12 people? That sounds cool as well as the PSE thing.

[RemiusTA]

They aren't groundbreaking, but they're pretty far from shitty.Your reasoning is that if Sonic Generations, an entirely different sort of game, can run at 30 FPS with low settings and a low resolution on your computer, that PSO2 should therefore be able to run smoothly no matter how many enemies/players/spell effects/etc. are going on on-screen at once (along with any lag to the server)? I don't follow.

Granted, PSU was really poorly optimized. But, y'know, it was little more than a port from the PS2 version. Not a PC-exclusive like PSO2. I don't think it's sensible to dwell on PSU's technical shortcomings or assume that PSO2 will suffer from the same shortcomings.


Im dwelling on PSU's shortcomings, because to ME it looks like the PSO2 engine isn't much different than the PSP2 engine, which is the same as the PSU engine, just moved upwards graphically instead of downwards. The game looks just like PSU except with better textures and better animations. It was the first thing i noticed about the screenshots. I was EXPECTING (with this game being phantasy star, next-gen and developed by Sega) for the game to, at the very least, be visually astounding. But to anyone who isn't a phantasy star fan, this game looks like it was made in 2005.

It just baffles me how this is supposed to be PSO2, but they aren't using Sega/Sonic Team's new internal engine that actually renders damn amazing environments. I guess it was just easier to build on PSU's engine...


And "accessibility" sounds like a cop-out to me. I guess they figure that since Monster Hunter is so successful and capcom refuses to put it on an HD system because they don't feel like spending the money, then PSO2 doesn't need to wow anybody graphically to be successful.

I'll admit though, PSO2 does look MUCH better in animation than it does in static pictures. They'll need to keep the art direction up in the indoor stages as well. But god damn, this game doesn't photograph well at all.


PSU shouldn't have trouble on an 8600GT o_O

It did. Like i said, i had issues running the game with things like post effects or something on without sacrificing my framerate or resolution, which is simply asinine.



and this was a pretty lame update, just like the last one. But i guess they don't need to spill everything.

[Rotek]

I dont know where to post this and dont want to make a new thread so ill do it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z25uSSzdO2U
Sorry if its been posted before im to lazy to look...

[Zorafim]

But to anyone who isn't a phantasy star fan, this game looks like it was made in 2005.

I was gonna call you out and say that this game looks amazing by today's standards, before realizing that I haven't played any graphically intensive games in years. It's gotten to the point where WII games look amazing to me. I don't know if I should be sad that I missed out on so many beautiful games, or be glad that I get to be amazed by the simplest games.

[NoiseHERO]

HOW DOES SKYWARD SWORD LOOK SO CLEA- Oh right only nintendo knows how to make pretty wii games.

[Skye-Fox713]

I dont know where to post this and dont want to make a new thread so ill do it here.
[G*Star 2011] Phantasy Star Online 2 - Game footage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z25uSSzdO2U)
Sorry if its been posted before im to lazy to look...

srry to go a little off topic here...

I haven't seen that video, but put it in the PSO2 information compilation thread (the sticky at the top) and the OP should get it in the first post.

[kyuuketsuki]

I was EXPECTING (with this game being phantasy star, next-gen and developed by Sega) for the game to, at the very least, be visually astounding.
I don't get it. It looks great to me, and I'm no stranger to modern PC games. I did see a few things (like the movements of the spider-things in one of the previews) that needed work, but I'd withhold judgement on stuff like that at least until the game is out of alpha status, if not until actual release, since graphical issues are generally worked on and smoothed out throughout the entirety of development.
But to anyone who isn't a phantasy star fan, this game looks like it was made in 2005.
Nah, it looks like a modern game that wasn't developed around a philosophy of pushing bleeding-edge graphics, but instead around accessibility and simply being perfectly solid.

It just baffles me how this is supposed to be PSO2, but they aren't using Sega/Sonic Team's new internal engine that actually renders damn amazing environments. I guess it was just easier to build on PSU's engine...
Impossible to answer without having detailed knowledge and access to whatever engine that is, but I'm guessing the development team looked at their options and found that that engine wasn't suitable (or maybe wasn't ready?) to start developing PSO2 on.

I'm not convinced that this is being built on PSU's engine, though it's certainly possible it's a modified iteration of it. Doesn't really matter to me, as long as it works well.

And "accessibility" sounds like a cop-out to me. I guess they figure that since Monster Hunter is so successful and capcom refuses to put it on an HD system because they don't feel like spending the money, then PSO2 doesn't need to wow anybody graphically to be successful.More like, online multiplayer games (outside of FPSes) rarely push the graphical envelope specifically due to accessibility and that there's more going on on-screen at once, along with all the online data, than in a single-player game.

As a side-note, I just finished playing a beta test weekend of SW:TOR. The graphics are decent, but definitely doesn't push any envelopes and, by your standards, probably would also fit under the category of a game that looks like it was released in 2005.

and this was a pretty lame update, just like the last one. But i guess they don't need to spill everything.
I don't generally follow developer blogs. Is this lame in comparison to usual developer blog stuff? Seems to me like you shouldn't really expect huge revelations with every post.
I was gonna call you out and say that this game looks amazing by today's standards, before realizing that I haven't played any graphically intensive games in years. It's gotten to the point where WII games look amazing to me. I don't know if I should be sad that I missed out on so many beautiful games, or be glad that I get to be amazed by the simplest games.
You should be glad that you're not the sort of person who immediately declares "wtf shitty graphics!" when a game isn't the next Crysis, even when the graphics look just fine by any reasonable standard, and that (presumably) you value games that are good-looking due to art direction and style over those simply pushing the "next-gen" envelope.

[Miyoko]

You know what this game needs for an interrupt event? Deviljho. Just an extra big, extra pissed off dragon to show up and ruin your day, complete with scary music that plays whenever he shows up. Bigger than the dragon we've already seen.

And of course, make him able to show up during other bosses, too.

[Zorafim]

Guys get ready, Fakis is gonna throw his Meteor!

*Meteor pops up*

*Deviljho eats the party*

*Meteor hits*

[Zyrusticae]

I just want to note that you cannot tell what engine a developer is using by the screenshots.

I mean, seriously, that's a really poor assumption to make. The only thing that might make that an even remotely reasonable assumption to make is because Unreal Engine 3 games all generally use the same material shaders, resulting in the infamous Unreal Engine Sheen. But not all engines are like that, and not all developers using the engine will use the same shaders.

A lot of what makes an engine work is behind-the-scenes; stuff like resource streaming, development tools, the cleanliness of the code, things that are not going to be immediately obvious in a screenshot or even a series of videos. The mere fact that PSO2 is PC-exclusive tells me that there is absolutely no way in all the hells that Sega is using the PSU engine. None. That engine was so completely, horribly broken that they'd have to tear out its guts just to get it to work properly during framerate lulls (as opposed to going into slow-mo every time the FPS dips below 60/30/whatever the threshold you set it at is).

Now, I will also note that some engines do emphasize graphical features as their primary defining attribute (CryEngine being the most obvious, followed by the newer Frostbite 2). PSO2's is obviously not one of these.

[FOnewearl-Lina]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/FoLina/PSU/1024/16-11-11_1704.jpg
Gundam chick indeed, also enough extra parts to turn Shino into Dark (Navy) Elenor!

[•Col•]

You know what this game needs for an interrupt event? Deviljho. Just an extra big, extra pissed off dragon to show up and ruin your day, complete with scary music that plays whenever he shows up. Bigger than the dragon we've already seen.

And of course, make him able to show up during other bosses, too.

I disagree.

Fighting multiple bosses at once just isn't PSO's style...

It's perfectly fine for Monster Hunter. It takes away from the epicness from the boss at hand... A boss seems less significant when there's another one right beside him.

Save that stuff for the mini-bosses, like those giant rock gorilla things.

[NoiseHERO]

Good it can be PSO2's style.

BRING ON THE SOMETHING NEW TO DO GAMEPLAY!

[r00tabaga]

Something new for bosses would be nice. PSO's 'style' is over a decade old!

[Selphea]

Make the dragon fear or tail swipe you into a cave, which spawns many whelps that need to be handled for an achievement!

[Kent]

Gol Dragon.

Something new for bosses would be nice. PSO's 'style' is over a decade old!
Sonic's style is two decades old.

The age of something has no relevance as to whether it is good or bad.

[NoiseHERO]

Gol Dragon.

Sonic's style is two decades old.

The age of something has no relevance as to whether it is good or bad.

It's not like they took out the modern gameplay from sonic generations.

IT WAS THERE TOO! YOU COULD HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!

[Angelo]

Gol Dragon.

Sonic's style is two decades old.

The age of something has no relevance as to whether it is good or bad.

Kind of bad example since the general consensus for Generations has been 'came for the classic, stayed for the modern'.

In fact having done everything I can possibly do in the game I've just spent the last week playing around in the game and almost completely forgot the classic stages even existed.

I think Sega may be trying the same thing with PSO2; baiting us with nostalgia so we let down our bias and then hitting us with a heavy dose of updated, arguably more fun gameplay.

[NoiseHERO]

Kind of bad example since the general consensus for Generations has been 'came for the classic, stayed for the modern'.

In fact having done everything I can possibly do in the game I've just spent the last week playing around in the game and almost completely forgot the classic stages even existed.

I think Sega may be trying the same thing with PSO2; baiting us with nostalgia so we let down our bias and then hitting us with a heavy dose of updated, arguably more fun gameplay.

I heard a lot of players "came for classic, stayed for modern" as well...

But that was gamefaqs... So yeah.. Bad source for me.

But yeah I agree, PSO2 is either definitely doing something similar(Drag people in with nostalgia, Impress them with something new and the fans can't bitch because you gave them the best of both worlds.) Or this is PSO Birth By Sleep.

[RemiusTA]

[spoiler-box]
I don't get it. It looks great to me, and I'm no stranger to modern PC games. I did see a few things (like the movements of the spider-things in one of the previews) that needed work, but I'd withhold judgement on stuff like that at least until the game is out of alpha status, if not until actual release, since graphical issues are generally worked on and smoothed out throughout the entirety of development.

Well, i was exaggerating. The game looks shitty at a standstill, but while moving it looks pretty decent to me.




Nah, it looks like a modern game that wasn't developed around a philosophy of pushing bleeding-edge graphics, but instead around accessibility and simply being perfectly solid. Woah, "modern" and "bleeding edge" graphics are two completely different tiers...what are you talking about?

And how does lower visuals make a graphical engine "Solid"? Have you forgotten PSU?




Impossible to answer without having detailed knowledge and access to whatever engine that is, but I'm guessing the development team looked at their options and found that that engine wasn't suitable (or maybe wasn't ready?) to start developing PSO2 on.Sonic Unleashed/Sonic Generations. Hell, even Sonic Colors, although it didn't use the same lighting engine obviously, but still looked damn amazing for a wii title. Regardless, Sonic Team developed it, and I was fully expecting them to utilize it for visuals until for whatever reason they didn't. Probably because it takes too much work to maintain good visuals.

They've done at minimum 2 games with it already, and it runs damn well on PCs since im able to run Sonic Generations with very little problems on a graphics card i got on sale about 3 years ago.

I'm not convinced that this is being built on PSU's engine, though it's certainly possible it's a modified iteration of it. Doesn't really matter to me, as long as it works well.

Me either, but when i look at this game, i quickly see PSU. It looks like it was modified a bit, but if you were to take PSU's models and put them in place of the PSO2 ones it'd just look like an expansion stage. A few obvious exceptions of course.



More like, online multiplayer games (outside of FPSes) rarely push the graphical envelope specifically due to accessibility and that there's more going on on-screen at once, along with all the online data, than in a single-player game.Well, true. I guess if this game is going to be F2P then that's a priority.

But online data has absolutely balls to do with the visuals of the game. That makes no sense, they're two completely separate processes.

And IIRC, Capcom specifically stated they moved Monster Hunter 3 from PS3 to Wii because it was too expensive to develop.




As a side-note, I just finished playing a beta test weekend of SW:TOR. The graphics are decent, but definitely doesn't push any envelopes and, by your standards, probably would also fit under the category of a game that looks like it was released in 2005.No, it'd fit under a game i'd never waste my time on because it looks like trash.

SW:TOR looks like a ton of wasted potential to me. But i won't digress.



I don't generally follow developer blogs. Is this lame in comparison to usual developer blog stuff? Seems to me like you shouldn't really expect huge revelations with every post.
No, i don't follow many developer blogs, but that doesn't make this update any less lame to me.



You should be glad that you're not the sort of person who immediately declares "wtf shitty graphics!" when a game isn't the next Crysis, even when the graphics look just fine by any reasonable standard, and that (presumably) you value games that are good-looking due to art direction and style over those simply pushing the "next-gen" envelope.How many times have I talked about this games art dire-


...nevermind.[/spoiler-box]


I disagree.

Fighting multiple bosses at once just isn't PSO's style...

It's perfectly fine for Monster Hunter. It takes away from the epicness from the boss at hand... A boss seems less significant when there's another one right beside him.

Save that stuff for the mini-bosses, like those giant rock gorilla things.


PSSSH you crazy. I always said the most fun thing they could have done for PSU's difficulty was to simply spawn 2 De Ragnas on the stage during the boss fight. You know, since the bosses are usually too stupid to ever hit anyone who's played the stage more than 8 times. I mean honestly, De Ragan was a shitty boss. It was a COOL boss, and a good one, but still shitty because of how predictable its AI was. They could have spawned a few of them in every room of Plains Overlord and it would have been the most epic mission ever.


On the subject of PSO2:

First, i noticed the Dragon they showed didn't have its own instanced room seperate from the rest of the stage, like PSO or PSU. At first it was kind of annoying, because that means the Dragon is nothing more than a really powerful enemy. But then when I actually SAW the dragon, and see they put some very decent work into its animations and AI, I noticed something. If it's nothing more than a very powerful enemy (or interrupt event), they could easily switch its AI and spawn more than one at a time, or place them in random areas for you to battle.


Dare i imagine a PSO2 Gol Dragon : 0 Either way, it'd be way more interesting to do battle with two dragons, since then Freezing/downing one means you still have to watch for the other. It simply makes the battle WAY more dynamic.

[Link1275]

For those of you saying that the randomly generated areas will get boring, you haven't played Coded Arms( http://psp.ign.com/objects/682/682976.html , http://www.gamefaqs.com/psp/920834-coded-arms ). Coded Arms did a very good job with random areas, and while it wasn't made by Sega it still goes to show that random areas aren't necessarily boring after enough time(the game was also pretty small at around 165 MB).

[•Col•]

To everyone who criticized me for saying it's not "PSO's style", I meant the series in general. :l As in PSO episode 1, 2, 4, PSU, AotI, PSPortable, PSPortable2, PSZero.

Imagine fighting (Insert Name of the Final Boss of Game Here) then a (Insert Name of the first Dragon boss here) swoops in.

That's not cool or intuitive or fun.

It's just dumb.


It could work out if done during certain circumstances, though. Like maybe have 2 of the same boss like Remius mentioned... Like have Male/Female dragons that you happen to stumble upon during a certain mission...

Or another way it could work... An awesome multiparty mission that spawns in three bosses with a time limit that forces the parties to split up to take each of the bosses down.

[NoiseHERO]

It's still not dumb.

YOU COULD EVEN HAVE THE TWO BOSSES FIGHT!

YEAAAHHH!!!

Or have Dark Falz throw up an army of De Ragans on you.

[•Col•]

It's still not dumb.

YOU COULD EVEN HAVE THE TWO BOSSES FIGHT!

YEAAAHHH!!!

Or have Dark Falz throw up an army of De Ragans on you.

Yeah.

Then the next day you go fight the regular De Ragan and go "Pssh, a De Ragan. I fought 8 of these yesterday + Dark Falz at the same time".

That's what I meant about the bosses seeming less epic. They just don't seem nearly as cool anymore if you fight them at the same time as another boss.

[NoiseHERO]

IT WORKs IN BEAT Em UP GAMES!

SO PSHA

[Selphea]

Yeah.

Then the next day you go fight the regular De Ragan and go "Pssh, a De Ragan. I fought 8 of these yesterday + Dark Falz at the same time".

That's what I meant about the bosses seeming less epic. They just don't seem nearly as cool anymore if you fight them at the same time as another boss.

De Ragan stops being epic the moment you get Souga-chou Sekka/Vivi Dezza and kill it in 28 seconds

[RemiusTA]

To everyone who criticized me for saying it's not "PSO's style", I meant the series in general. :l As in PSO episode 1, 2, 4, PSU, AotI, PSPortable, PSPortable2, PSZero.

Imagine fighting (Insert Name of the Final Boss of Game Here) then a (Insert Name of the first Dragon boss here) swoops in.

That's not cool or intuitive or fun.

It's just dumb.


How...is that dumb? How is that anything but awesome?

[r00tabaga]

How...is that dumb? How is that anything but awesome?

Awesome is the word he meant to say.

[RemiusTA]

im playing FF6 right now. One of the most both epic and hilarious moments has been one of the first few bosses ive fought coming back to completely bomb our crowning moment of awesome and force us to fight him.

And if Dark Falz had a chance to summon 3 Dragons during the final battle of a mission, he'd only be just that much more difficult and great to fight.

[NoiseHERO]

I WANNA RUN UP THE DRAGONS NECK AND JAM MY GUNSLASH INTO IT'S SKULL AND JUMP OFF IT'S PULPY BLOODY HEAD AND ON TO ANOTHER DRAGON'S BACK AND TIE MY WIRED LANCE AROUND IT'S NECK FORCING IT TO FLY INTO DARK FALZ'S FIST CRUSHING THE DRAGONS BODY AS I WIRE LANCE ON TO DARK FALZ' ARM AND CRAWL TO IT'S SHOULDERS AS AS IT TRIES TO SHAKE ME OFF AND THE OTHER DRAGONS BITE HIS ARMS UP TRYING TO GET TO ME BUT IT JUST FREAKS FALZ OUT AS I MAKE IT TO THE TOP AND PUNCH HIM IN THE SIDE OF THE NECK WITH MY BARE HANDS!

[•Col•]

How...is that dumb? How is that anything but awesome?

Because Dark Falz always felt like you were fighting against a demigod. Can't get much more epic than that.

When the dragon flies in, the battle becomes fighting god + dinky monster(by comparison).

Then, like I mentioned before, the next day you go to fight the standalone Dragon, it's just fighting a dinky monster. And will forever be a dinky monster. That Dragon is no longer cool. It's not even a boss anymore. It's a slightly stronger/larger than normal monster.

[Jonth]

OR! They could just make a boss that is the equivalent of fighting 3 bosses at the same time. Something like Mother Brain... Except times 3... There would be 6 missile launchers, 3 plasma cannons, 5 Tesla guns complete with the capability to paralyze/stun, 6 giant robotic arms, 3 machine gun turrets, and 2 giant heads complete with eye lasers.

AND! You have to first destroy all of the weapon components before you can start attacking the heads... AND! You have to destroy the three shield generators before you can start attacking the weapon components. It would be 3 Mother Brains tall and round (you would be able to circle it, but there are heads in both directions and weapons in all directions), and be fought on 3 different stories simultaneously, and have the ability to emit an electromagnetic field to stun players occasionally. AND! When you can finally start attacking the heads, they will become able to shoot instant kill death beams from their mouth!

...Yeah... Something like that... That should be the new Mother Brain...

[•Col•]

OR! They could just make a boss that is the equivalent of fighting 3 bosses at the same time. Something like Mother Brain... Except times 3... There would be 6 missile launchers, 3 plasma cannons, 5 Tesla guns complete with the capability to paralyze/stun, 6 giant robotic arms, 3 machine gun turrets, and 2 giant heads complete with eye lasers.

AND! You have to first destroy all of the weapon components before you can start attacking the heads... AND! You have to destroy the three shield generators before you can start attacking the weapon components. It would be 3 Mother Brains tall and round (you would be able to circle it, but there are heads in both directions and weapons in all directions), and be fought on 3 different stories simultaneously, and have the ability to emit an electromagnetic field to stun players occasionally. AND! When you can finally start attacking the heads, they will become able to shoot instant kill death beams from their mouth!

...Yeah... Something like that... That should be the new Mother Brain...

Reminded me of a super Vol Opt.

[Jonth]

Reminded me of a super Vol Opt.

For Dark Falz I am picturing having to run up a giant spiraling tower while having to fight dark evil tentacles that form out of the walls and avoiding random megids being shot out of the dark protoplasm that is rapidly spiraling around the tower. When you reach the top, you have to fight a multi-stage boss, Thats right, a good old multi-stage boss like the classics.

First Stage: Drak Falz's apparition (think something like you would see in PS 2, 3, or 4) will randomly form out of the protoplasm around the tower giving you a chance to attack him directly. He'll attack you physically, and with various techs during this time, including Megid. When enough damage is done, he will disappear and you will have to fight a number of tentacles that must be defeated before he will appear again. After about 3-5 times of this, you'll get to the second stage.

Second Stage: Dark Falz will appear in the center (able to move around) to attack you head on. Appearance is a little more formidable this time around, and he has four arms, more attack options as well as higher damage output. Basically beat the crap out of him, and he dies letting out a painful roar.

Third Stage: Hah! You fell for the "Boss looks dead, but really isn't trick"! Dark Falz's body begins to transition into an energy form. The dark energy expands and swallows the screen and everything except your characters is black for a moment. As you begin to be able to see, you are in some circular dark cavern... That has eyes in to walls and floors, and seems to be pulsing as if with blood. In the center of the room is an enormous, dark torso only abomination with eyes, spikes, and tentacles sticking out of his body, and 4 monstrous arms that attack physically or by shooting megid from their palm. . There are multiple heads on the body, and walls, with one giant, monstrous head atop the 5 story torso.

There are 20 or so tentacles, and 10 or so bulbous nodes that can tech. All of these must be beaten before the heads can be touched (dark barrier around them and what-not). The heads will be shooting eye lasers (about 10 heads in all) during this entire process, and they will also have spiky, tentacle like tongues to attack close range. The other heads must be destroyed to attack the main head. When the Main head can be attacked, it can shoot an instant kill death ray.

End: Upon defeating, the cavern will begin to tear in multiple places, the ground will quake, and once again the players will be enveloped with darkness. When the darkness fades, they will be atop the tower, but the protoplasm will be replaced with a bright sky.

[NoiseHERO]

For Dark Falz I am picturing having to run up a giant spiraling tower while having to fight dark evil tentacles that form out of the walls and avoiding random megids being shot out of the dark protoplasm that is rapidly spiraling around the tower. When you reach the top, you have to fight a multi-stage boss, Thats right, a good old multi-stage boss like the classics.

First Stage: Drak Falz's apparition (think something like you would see in PS 2, 3, or 4) will randomly form out of the protoplasm around the tower giving you a chance to attack him directly. He'll attack you physically, and with various techs during this time, including Megid. When enough damage is done, he will disappear and you will have to fight a number of tentacles that must be defeated before he will appear again. After about 3-5 times of this, you'll get to the second stage.

Second Stage: Dark Falz will appear in the center (able to move around) to attack you head on. Appearance is a little more formidable this time around, and he has four arms, more attack options as well as higher damage output. Basically beat the crap out of him, and he dies letting out a painful roar.

Third Stage: Hah! You fell for the "Boss looks dead, but really isn't trick"! Dark Falz's body begins to transition into an energy form. The dark energy expands and swallows the screen and everything except your characters is black for a moment. As you begin to be able to see, you are in some circular dark cavern... That has eyes in to walls and floors, and seems to be pulsing as if with blood. In the center of the room is an enormous, dark torso only abomination with eyes, spikes, and tentacles sticking out of his body, and 4 monstrous arms that attack physically or by shooting megid from their palm. . There are multiple heads on the body, and walls, with one giant, monstrous head atop the 5 story torso.

There are 20 or so tentacles, and 10 or so bulbous nodes that can tech. All of these must be beaten before the heads can be touched (dark barrier around them and what-not). The heads will be shooting eye lasers (about 10 heads in all) during this entire process, and they will also have spiky, tentacle like tongues to attack close range. The other heads must be destroyed to attack the main head. When the Main head can be attacked, it can shoot an instant kill death ray.

End: Upon defeating, the cavern will begin to tear in multiple places, the ground will quake, and once again the players will be enveloped with darkness. When the darkness fades, they will be atop the tower, but the protoplasm will be replaced with a bright sky.

These things CAN'T happen, BECAUSE THEN YOU JUST SPOILED IT.

[Jonth]

They Just don't do epic like they used to.

[Selphea]

For Dark Falz I am picturing having to run up a giant spiraling tower while having to fight dark evil tentacles that form out of the walls and avoiding random megids being shot out of the dark protoplasm that is rapidly spiraling around the tower. When you reach the top, you have to fight a multi-stage boss, Thats right, a good old multi-stage boss like the classics.

First Stage: Drak Falz's apparition (think something like you would see in PS 2, 3, or 4) will randomly form out of the protoplasm around the tower giving you a chance to attack him directly. He'll attack you physically, and with various techs during this time, including Megid. When enough damage is done, he will disappear and you will have to fight a number of tentacles that must be defeated before he will appear again. After about 3-5 times of this, you'll get to the second stage.

Second Stage: Dark Falz will appear in the center (able to move around) to attack you head on. Appearance is a little more formidable this time around, and he has four arms, more attack options as well as higher damage output. Basically beat the crap out of him, and he dies letting out a painful roar.

Third Stage: Hah! You fell for the "Boss looks dead, but really isn't trick"! Dark Falz's body begins to transition into an energy form. The dark energy expands and swallows the screen and everything except your characters is black for a moment. As you begin to be able to see, you are in some circular dark cavern... That has eyes in to walls and floors, and seems to be pulsing as if with blood. In the center of the room is an enormous, dark torso only abomination with eyes, spikes, and tentacles sticking out of his body, and 4 monstrous arms that attack physically or by shooting megid from their palm. . There are multiple heads on the body, and walls, with one giant, monstrous head atop the 5 story torso.

There are 20 or so tentacles, and 10 or so bulbous nodes that can tech. All of these must be beaten before the heads can be touched (dark barrier around them and what-not). The heads will be shooting eye lasers (about 10 heads in all) during this entire process, and they will also have spiky, tentacle like tongues to attack close range. The other heads must be destroyed to attack the main head. When the Main head can be attacked, it can shoot an instant kill death ray.

End: Upon defeating, the cavern will begin to tear in multiple places, the ground will quake, and once again the players will be enveloped with darkness. When the darkness fades, they will be atop the tower, but the protoplasm will be replaced with a bright sky.

Doujin artists will have a field day.

[RemiusTA]

They Just don't do epic like they used to.

Aint this the god damn truth.


These days they try wayyyy to hard to skip to the "epic" part without realizing why the previous "epic" things in videogames were even epic in the first place.
[spoiler-box]
I love using Final Fantasy as an example! For example: Sephiroth's final battle wasn't epic because it was sephiroth, although that had alot to do with it, it wasn't the direct cause (why wasn't the fight before that epic?) It was epic because

1) i dont think anyone saw Safer Sephiroth coming, and even if you did, what the hell he looks even more odd than before and where the fuck are we?

2) you're fighting for about a good 30 SECONDS before

3) WHAT TH-OMINOUS LATIN CHANTING LYRICS ORCHESTRA OH MY GOD

4) Attacks with biblical references

5) Supernova, did he just cast a summon on us?

6) ?????

7) HOLY FUCK WHAT JUST HAPPENED IM STILL ALIVE THOUGH

8 ) you win and he disintegrates

9 ) Time for end of game cutscene, boy that was pretty f-WAIT WHAT HE ISNT DEAD ANOTHER FIGHT WHAT IF I LOSE I JUST WANT MY ENDING CG

10 ) epic duel showdown, oh wow i get to choose a limit to finish him with, awesomesauce le what the fuck is an "omnislash"

11) ????

12) 15 year boner[/spoiler-box]


Final Fantasy references aside, Dark Falz and Olga Flow were 100% epic for the exact same reasons. Dark Falz comes out of absolutely nowhere from an eeriely "quiet; too quiet" scene, has two evil forms, then you replay the game over again and defeat him, only to find out he has ANOTHER completely random form complete with his own magic fighting ring and amazingly epic leitmotif final battle theme.

Olga Flow was epic because, obvious stuff out of the way, the music was awesome and for gods sake you were fighting this bastard while he was in freefall. And then he lands, ANOTHER ridiculously amazing song plays and you wack at his feet while he stomps around stealing souls transforming people into icons making the ceiling crumble and....well you get it.


Falkis wasn't epic because im sorry, he was just a shitty boss, from a shitty source. It would have been 100x more epic had he just warped in from completely random subspace to crash Ethan's final battle for trolling purposes. But their fail attempts to explain his impromptu creation was just...eugh. Final Fantasy gets away with throwing completely random demigod enemies at you endgame all the time, but they're never stupid enough to actually try and make actual sense of it, because lets be honest, it isn't supposed to make any. Falkis 2 was pretty awesomely epic, but most of the time i honestly had no idea what was going on while fighting him. Much like the other shitty bosses in that game.

Oh yeah and just like everything else in PSU, i understand the need for an Epic setting and all, but sticking us between the 3 planets (how are 3 planets orbiting eachother here anyway....?) was just kind of...overkill? I don't mean to split hairs, but it felt like they just tried too hard. A destroyed setting of the reactor with like the roof blown out to reveal an image of space, and huge chunks of floating debri around you for scale would have worked fine for me. But warping me to the middle of space just made me wonder why Falkis didn't just remove whatever was letting us breathe (????) and watch us decompress.





I WANNA RUN UP THE DRAGONS NECK AND JAM MY GUNSLASH INTO IT'S SKULL AND JUMP OFF IT'S PULPY BLOODY HEAD AND ON TO ANOTHER DRAGON'S BACK AND TIE MY WIRED LANCE AROUND IT'S NECK FORCING IT TO FLY INTO DARK FALZ'S FIST CRUSHING THE DRAGONS BODY AS I WIRE LANCE ON TO DARK FALZ' ARM AND CRAWL TO IT'S SHOULDERS AS AS IT TRIES TO SHAKE ME OFF AND THE OTHER DRAGONS BITE HIS ARMS UP TRYING TO GET TO ME BUT IT JUST FREAKS FALZ OUT AS I MAKE IT TO THE TOP AND PUNCH HIM IN THE SIDE OF THE NECK WITH MY BARE HANDS!
All you were missing was another completely random weapon to switch to and it'd be perfect.

And the reaction command/QTE (OH NOE) style Falcon Paaannnnchhhhhhhu to the forehead dealing completely random 8 digit damage

[NoiseHERO]

Aint this the god damn truth.


These days they try wayyyy to hard to skip to the "epic" part without realizing why the previous "epic" things in videogames were even epic in the first place.
[spoiler-box]
I love using Final Fantasy as an example! For example: Sephiroth's final battle wasn't epic because it was sephiroth, although that had alot to do with it, it wasn't the direct cause (why wasn't the fight before that epic?) It was epic because

1) i dont think anyone saw Safer Sephiroth coming, and even if you did, what the hell he looks even more odd than before and where the fuck are we?

2) you're fighting for about a good 30 SECONDS before

3) WHAT TH-OMINOUS LATIN CHANTING LYRICS ORCHESTRA OH MY GOD

4) Attacks with biblical references

5) Supernova, did he just cast a summon on us?

6) ?????

7) HOLY FUCK WHAT JUST HAPPENED IM STILL ALIVE THOUGH

8 ) you win and he disintegrates

9 ) Time for end of game cutscene, boy that was pretty f-WAIT WHAT HE ISNT DEAD ANOTHER FIGHT WHAT IF I LOSE I JUST WANT MY ENDING CG

10 ) epic duel showdown, oh wow i get to choose a limit to finish him with, awesomesauce le what the fuck is an "omnislash"

11) ????

12) 15 year boner[/spoiler-box]


Final Fantasy references aside, Dark Falz and Olga Flow were 100% epic for the exact same reasons. Dark Falz comes out of absolutely nowhere from an eeriely "quiet; too quiet" scene, has two evil forms, then you replay the game over again and defeat him, only to find out he has ANOTHER completely random form complete with his own magic fighting ring and amazingly epic leitmotif final battle theme.

Olga Flow was epic because, obvious stuff out of the way, the music was awesome and for gods sake you were fighting this bastard while he was in freefall. And then he lands, ANOTHER ridiculously amazing song plays and you wack at his feet while he stomps around stealing souls transforming people into icons making the ceiling crumble and....well you get it.


Falkis wasn't epic because im sorry, he was just a shitty boss, from a shitty source. It would have been 100x more epic had he just warped in from completely random subspace to crash Ethan's final battle for trolling purposes. But their fail attempts to explain his impromptu creation was just...eugh. Final Fantasy gets away with throwing completely random demigod enemies at you endgame all the time, but they're never stupid enough to actually try and make actual sense of it, because lets be honest, it isn't supposed to make any. Falkis 2 was pretty awesomely epic, but most of the time i honestly had no idea what was going on while fighting him. Much like the other shitty bosses in that game.

Oh yeah and just like everything else in PSU, i understand the need for an Epic setting and all, but sticking us between the 3 planets (how are 3 planets orbiting eachother here anyway....?) was just kind of...overkill? I don't mean to split hairs, but it felt like they just tried too hard. A destroyed setting of the reactor with like the roof blown out to reveal an image of space, and huge chunks of floating debri around you for scale would have worked fine for me. But warping me to the middle of space just made me wonder why Falkis didn't just remove whatever was letting us breathe (????) and watch us decompress.
All you were missing was another completely random weapon to switch to and it'd be perfect.

And the reaction command/QTE (OH NOE) style Falcon Paaannnnchhhhhhhu ending dealing completely random 8 digit damage

Stop making me want to play FF7, I'll fucking cut you. e_e

And augh forgot the QTE!

[Miyoko]

Well dur you wouldn't have another boss come in during the FINAL boss. That's just retarded. But other bosses? Non important ones? It'd make them a helluvalot more interesting AND more dangerous. It's not really that much different than the bonus bosses in PSP2.

... Watching one/the last boss mutilate another boss (that maybe you had trouble with) right before your eyes would fill you with a pretty intense/awesome sense of dread, though.

[Selphea]

... Watching one/the last boss mutilate another boss (that maybe you had trouble with) right before your eyes would fill you with a pretty intense/awesome sense of dread, though.

Or rage, like "You frigging KSer! Get your fat flying ass down here so I can kick it for more EXP dammit!"