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Mike
Nov 22, 2011, 11:12 PM
According to an interview with Sakai and Korean gaming press posted on Shogai PSO (http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2011/11/111123a.html) there are no plans for PvP at launch or just after launch for the Japanese version of PSO2. PvP would be one of the things thought about if or when a Korean release happens.

NoiseHERO
Nov 22, 2011, 11:14 PM
lol...

Koreans need their PVP huh.. sounds like they'd actually put effort into it then..

Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. Assuming they do it.

/proceeds to look at article. then realizes everything is in Chinese.

Before the japan trivia club corrects me. Yes, I typed Chinese on purpose. o_o

4th edit: and it looks like Other Mikes rival in PSO2 info nascar, mystery racer X AKA ricardo updated his blog with this all translated already

"Sakai was interviewed by THIS IS GAME, a Korean gaming news site, and commented about Phantasy Star and the future of the series. However, these ideas are concepts that he may or may not go through with.

Shougai had the interview in Japanese which I guess they translated from Korean.
They plan to start Alpha Test 2 in early 2012, PSO2 was originally supposed to release in 2011, but during the first alpha test, they had some trouble with the game servers. They decided to push back the release of the game to spend more time fixing it.

They know that PvP is important to Korean players, but in Japan, the demand for PvP is not as high. In the Japanese version, PvP won’t be added initially after the game starts. But when they officially decide on doing a Korean version, then they may think about adding PvP in.

Interrupt Events, where they appear, when they occur, and the chances they may occur are all completely random, even the developers can’t predict when they happen.

He can’t say yet what the game’s official specs are, he’s still investigating about widening the range (of the graphical capabilities) as much as possible, and certainly, DirectX 9 is supported.
And for the most interesting part, THIS IS GAME asked what will become of the console games for the series?

There’s no need for you to worry, the Phantasy Star Series will continue to develop.
It sounds like we may be getting new games in the Phantasy Star Series aimed at console gamers.

PC Gamers: Phantasy Star Online 2
Handheld Gamers: Phantasy Star Victory [Tentative Title]
Casual Gamers: Phantasy Star Eternal Planets
Console Gamers: Phantasy Star [Title Unknown?]"

5th edit: The butthurt console enthusiast and the elite asshole PC gamers can stop bickering now (I wonder what it'll be- maybe a continuation of the Classic PS's

Victory is easily a Vita sequel to Infinity... Or just a Phantasy Star Vita game in general-whatever that's my speculation

Dre_o
Nov 23, 2011, 12:47 AM
No PvP = no skin off my bones

RemiusTA
Nov 23, 2011, 01:09 AM
This is hilarious, because they've all but just confirmed that it will exist.


Welp, may the thread swell...

NoiseHERO
Nov 23, 2011, 01:18 AM
No koreans no PVP..

I dunno why they're so hesitant on saying anywhere outside Japan will get this game, But it'd be a bag of dicks to show this at a Korean show then say they're not getting it.

Koreans get it = PVP gets considered..

U all mad.

No one else is curious about those console and Victory phantasy star s,I C.

r00tabaga
Nov 23, 2011, 01:34 AM
Guess I'll just wait for my US portable & console versions of Phantasy Star.

ShadowDragon28
Nov 23, 2011, 05:52 AM
I could not care less for PVP... As long as it an optional feature, I don't care.

Dinosaur
Nov 23, 2011, 06:07 AM
Nah PvP should definitely be forced.

Selphea
Nov 23, 2011, 08:32 AM
Wouldn't it be awesome to join a random game while the players are at boss, then wait till the boss is almost dead and the players are all on cooldown. When that happens, gank them, kill the boss and ninja their rare drop? :D

Keilyn
Nov 23, 2011, 09:12 AM
Sure ^_^

Remember PSO?

The gameshark hacks:

1) Hack two Priest/Mind-- (-2000 MST to have a negative number w/ game shark)
2) Hack God/TP++ (+5000 TP or so)
3) Hack God/HP++ (+10000 HP version)

4) Enter any room....wait until boss is near death or at boss gate in Dreamcast version
5) Cast Resta, Since your MST is negative Resta takes HP rather than return it.
6) Kill off all players...they drop their Meseta and Weapon
7) Profit

So sure, the original PSO didn't have PvP, but it had enough to scare the entire population into never using any decent weapon with a random party.

Angelo
Nov 23, 2011, 09:34 AM
Korea is getting this game.

I would bet money on it.

This might also head the game towards a f2p cash shop model, since it's worked well for them in PSPo2/Infinity.

Enforcer MKV
Nov 23, 2011, 10:32 AM
...huh, I am interested in those handheld and console versions, I can't wait to hear more about them....an expanded sequel to PSZ with all of the mechanics other than picture chat would be great.

PSO was a console series, to begin with, after all. Glad to hear they aren't forsaking those roots totally. If Sega redoubled their efforts and managed to knock this out of the park, I can see a definite revival in PSO ahead...both in JP and abroad, hopefully.

More on topic, I, for one am glad there won't be any PVP to begin with, polish the core of the game, make sure there is enough content to keep players interested for a while, and then add and expand on it. Part of what made PSU so fun for me was that I didn't have to worry about PVP of any kind. Honestly, the idea of killing other players (especially through hacking) who are only trying to cooperate with other is...digusting, to say the least. I mean, when they added in the airboard racing, that was fun, it worked. But fighting other players directly? Nah, just let's all kill us some dragons, and let the trash talking and ego stroking stay in PvP centric games.

Scejntjynahl
Nov 23, 2011, 10:52 AM
I like the console ideas just for the simple idea that my character wont die once the servers go offline. This is why I hated PSU.

Macman
Nov 23, 2011, 01:06 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome to join a random game while the players are at boss, then wait till the boss is almost dead and the players are all on cooldown. When that happens, gank them, kill the boss and ninja their rare drop? :D'Cept you can't ninja drops in PSO2 if it's going to use PSZ's drop system.

RemiusTA
Nov 23, 2011, 01:17 PM
No koreans no PVP..

I dunno why they're so hesitant on saying anywhere outside Japan will get this game, But it'd be a bag of dicks to show this at a Korean show then say they're not getting it.



Yeah, honestly. Why the fuck would they go through the trouble to booth a game in "ALPHA" phase, translated, to a country that "may not" be getting it? Who the hell does that?




Anyway, the scariest part about this post is them actually trying to appeal to the Korean players. That can ONLY mean they're about to royally fuck this game up. Those guys are so serious about social hierarchy in their games that the games themselves fall victim to it.


I will not touch this game if it becomes a grindy, spammy, twitchy glitchfest with an overly complicated advancement system and a cash shop that relies on your overwhelming chance of failure to coax you into spending money to have fun with the game. Im sick and tired of that dumb shit.



Edit: if they do add pvp, they need to keep it clear of the regular game. Im 100% for PVP, but them adding it for the sake of korean players honestly bugs me a bit. I don't mean to sound like a douchebag, but those guys never get anything right in terms of MMOs that stay fun to play for more than 2 days before you realize it isn't worth the commitment you're looking to put into it to get anywhere. (i.e. your entire life)

Neith
Nov 23, 2011, 01:57 PM
PVP as a battle mode? Fine with that. To be honest though, I barely care if it's added or not.

I'm really starting to think PSO2 will rely on a cash shop though. Between Guardians Cash and the DLC on PSP2, I'd be surprised if there wasn't one (in addition to the monthly fee, obviously).

NoiseHERO
Nov 23, 2011, 02:02 PM
Well if it worked with PSU JP they'll probably do it again if you think about it like that...

They just better not test it on their western audience.

@ enforcer, Maybe a CONSOLE sequel to PSZ maybe... But PSVictory sounds like an obvious Vita title...

Like they just looked for a cool sounding word that started with a V, so it'd fit with it's handheld..

Like Kingdom Farts did with their "Dream Drop Distance AKA 3D" :\

Macman
Nov 23, 2011, 02:25 PM
Well if it worked with PSU JP they'll probably do it again if you think about it like that...

They just better not test it on their western audience.Oh don't worry, we won't see any of that, or any content updates either. :wink:

Enforcer MKV
Nov 23, 2011, 02:29 PM
Yeah, I meant a console sequel to PSZ, should have specified. My bad. Actually, hell, it doesn't even need to be a sequel, so long as they make the RAcast look more like the PSZ art (not so bulky). Seriously, an HD version of that art that looks almost exactly like that work would be....just.....so....so....epic.

But yeah, Victory is practically guaranteed to be a Vita title, but, hey, maybe that'll boost Vita sales?.....

Anyway, I'm gonna be busy playing my Cosmic Black Zelda 3DS once Christmas rolls around, so yeah....bring on the console PSO1 styled game! woo-hoo! XD

NoiseHERO
Nov 23, 2011, 03:09 PM
Oh don't worry, we won't see any of that, or any content updates either. :wink:

Well I will D:

I'm gettin' dat there JP version. D:

Arkios
Nov 23, 2011, 03:39 PM
I think it would be hilarious if they're not actually planning on introducing PvP at all, they're just saying that to entice Korean players to buy the game... thinking that PvP will be released.

Korea, trolled hard by Sega. That would be glorious.

NoiseHERO
Nov 23, 2011, 03:44 PM
Koreans should have separate servers.

They can have all of their life devotion gameplay and everyone else can play space channel 5 in the lobby's together on the global servers.

Zyrusticae
Nov 23, 2011, 04:19 PM
This thread is funny.

What is particularly funny is the fact that Korean players are not actually much more inclined towards PvP than westerners. In fact, they may even be less so, judging from how Aion has been handled (rifting was killed with an iron fist in Korea, but over in the west we still have the debuffs taken off every other week).

The competitive Korean players flock towards games that are actually built from the ground-up for PvP, like, y'know... games that don't have grinding elements. The folks that play MMOs have almost no overlap with the competitive Korean player base.

I would not be surprised to see no PvP in the game for months after launch.

AzureBlaze
Nov 23, 2011, 04:28 PM
Why CANT they just confirm this thing to countries?
I mean, this is getting to be nonsense by this point:

Sending the bosses down to game shows,
SHOWING the game written in Korean to everybody
Doing Korean interviews
Talking about Alpha Korean

...of course it's going over there. Translating's no easy feat/not cheap (I guess). I do wonder what's preventing them from just coming out and saying it. That's all ANYbody is waiting for at this point. (some dumb rule? Sega bosses saying 'not till last min'??)

This seems strange to me:
"They plan to start Alpha Test 2 in early 2012, PSO2 was originally supposed to release in 2011, but during the first alpha test, they had some trouble with the game servers. They decided to push back the release of the game to spend more time fixing it."

Really? Really?
With their big Q & A they posted on the zillions of mechanics, customization, drop & etc issues I was led to believe that the server was just 1 of many things that needed fixing up.

I hope they do add PVP
Nothing ever launched with it...PSO didn't, PSU didn't & neither did the portables. It came later, it was nice & separate, so that's fine. I was big on rule battling, it was fun, so it's def. something I'd do, but it doesn't bother me that it won't launch with it.


GOOD that they're messing with graphics/specs still
I kept hearing how it looked a little pixel-ey for a PC game

Handheld Gamers: Phantasy Star Victory [Tentative Title]
Wasn't Victory literally confirmed officially for Vita by a magazine? I know I read that somewhere trustworthy. If it launches with Vita, that will be a day1 buy for me. Otherwise I'll ignore the system till it comes out.

Casual Gamers: Phantasy Star Eternal Planets
Isn't this getting some not-so-hot reviews by the people who play it?

Console Gamers: Phantasy Star [Title Unknown?]"
First hint I've seen of this. VERY VERY curiuos...this is exciting stuff to be sure. I don't care where the games are, as long as they're fun!

RemiusTA
Nov 23, 2011, 05:41 PM
This thread is funny.

What is particularly funny is the fact that Korean players are not actually much more inclined towards PvP than westerners. In fact, they may even be less so, judging from how Aion has been handled (rifting was killed with an iron fist in Korea, but over in the west we still have the debuffs taken off every other week).

The competitive Korean players flock towards games that are actually built from the ground-up for PvP, like, y'know... games that don't have grinding elements. The folks that play MMOs have almost no overlap with the competitive Korean player base.

I would not be surprised to see no PvP in the game for months after launch.


Whatever. Too bad 98% of them are still terrible ass games. And are still grindy as hell.

lostinseganet
Nov 23, 2011, 06:56 PM
See here is the killer about PvP. When a game is made so that one player can kill another it makes it easier for a hacker to manipulate code to kill people out side of the PvP setting. The only way to truly alienate this problem is to make a totally separate game. Yet gamers know this is not likely due to cost. So players choose to have no PvP at all.

D-Inferno
Nov 23, 2011, 07:09 PM
PvP should stay to Battle mode. Of course, BA itself needs some actual reward behind it.

RemiusTA
Nov 23, 2011, 07:27 PM
See here is the killer about PvP. When a game is made so that one player can kill another it makes it easier for a hacker to manipulate code to kill people out side of the PvP setting. The only way to truly alienate this problem is to make a totally separate game. Yet gamers know this is not likely due to cost. So players choose to have no PvP at all.


uhhhh no.

lostinseganet
Nov 23, 2011, 07:29 PM
PvP should stay to Battle mode. Of course, BA itself needs some actual reward behind it.Cant victory be its own reward? Battle MODE could depends on how its done. Maybe from the startup screen, and a server that has nothing to do with the nonpvp areas...maybe.

Zyrusticae
Nov 23, 2011, 08:29 PM
Whatever. Too bad 98% of them are still terrible ass games. And are still grindy as hell.
I would not be so dismissive.

Believe it or not, it's Korea and, to a much lesser extent, Japan where MMOs are actually seeing high levels level of innovation. Archeage is a (increasingly rare) sandbox MMO, Blade & Soul is turning several MMO tropes on their heads, Tera finally took MMO combat into the 21st century (though it launched incomplete and suffered heavily for it), and there's a whole crapload of lower-budget stuff that is messing with new concepts that will never, ever be explored by western developers.

And in fact, since the release of Aion, Korean MMOs have increasingly veered away from the pure grind of hardcore games like the Lineage series. For that matter, Tera has an extremely fast progression curve much closer to WoW than anything else. Hell, even the new Lineage Eternal plays more like a new Diablo game.

That being said, the Korean companies are not much different from the Japanese companies in that they really don't give a shit about their overseas playerbase. I fully expect Sega JP to completely ignore any of our concerns, just like NCSoft has done with Aion (even though NCWest, if given the power, could have seriously turned the game around and improved sub retention by orders of magnitude). The good news, however, is that Japanese players, from what I've seen, share mostly the same concerns that we do - unlike Korean players who are, well, a bit different.

Cayenne
Nov 23, 2011, 10:09 PM
I think it would be hilarious if they're not actually planning on introducing PvP at all, they're just saying that to entice Korean players to buy the game... thinking that PvP will be released.

Korea, trolled hard by Sega. That would be glorious.

Nice post!

Also, no to PvP:-D

RemiusTA
Nov 23, 2011, 10:09 PM
You're getting it whether you like it or not.

NoiseHERO
Nov 23, 2011, 10:16 PM
So who wants to get pwndsauce'd'd by me in PVP?

Bring it PVE noobs.

Jonth
Nov 23, 2011, 10:47 PM
So who wants to get pwndsauce'd'd by me in PVP?

Bring it PVE noobs.

I am not opposed to getting pwndsauce'd'd'... Wait what?... Anyway, not opposed to getting my butt kicked in PvP. No doubt I would as I don't play PvP too often, and the few times I do, I usually end up getting the crap beat out of me. And you know what? I still have fun doing it.

NoiseHERO
Nov 23, 2011, 10:56 PM
The only ever time I took PVP seriously in a game, I only got decent, but didn't care about stats and LOLlatency and unbalanced classes = I only won 1 out of every 3 matches.

Or there was FEZ... I was horrible at that game, then again it was teamwork based and I lonewolf'd the battle field because I hated everyone because that game had a horrible community, and the few people I did like, I never got to play with because the community was divided into 5 nations and everyone had these guild loyalty issues. That game was so new player unfriendly that 9 times out of 10 you'd never be given a chance to grow, the community was so badly damaged that no one could properly help other new players become useful. Plus who would want to be when they only thing you can do as a new player is mine crystals for a hopeless war where no one worked together.


BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY, AN OFF-TOPIC ONE. Yoshi knows all about that game.

Angelo
Nov 23, 2011, 11:40 PM
I would not be so dismissive.

Believe it or not, it's Korea and, to a much lesser extent, Japan where MMOs are actually seeing high levels level of innovation. Archeage is a (increasingly rare) sandbox MMO, Blade & Soul is turning several MMO tropes on their heads, Tera finally took MMO combat into the 21st century (though it launched incomplete and suffered heavily for it), and there's a whole crapload of lower-budget stuff that is messing with new concepts that will never, ever be explored by western developers.
.

Thank you! I'm so glad somebody else is making this realization instead of just shrugging off Korean MMOs due to their stigma alone. Western games like Rift, SWTOR, and even GW2 are not deviating that much from the original formula.


Honestly, some nice instanced battles, or set rule 2v2 would be absolutely amazing if it offered a reward or incentive.

Continent of the 9th is a really fun Korean 'lobby' online game similar to the Phantasy Star games and it has some incredibly fun PvP.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgmslyb2fnw&feature=related

Ark22
Nov 24, 2011, 12:35 AM
PVP: With the blocking and the PA spaming and the awwww you know what I am tawkin about. Yeah keep that is Sega's pants until they can make it more balance...LIKE DCUO :D

r00tabaga
Nov 24, 2011, 12:41 AM
C9 there looks great.......googling as we speak

Angelo
Nov 24, 2011, 01:40 AM
C9 there looks great.......googling as we speak

C9 is great. Unfortunately it's been 'coming soon to the US' since... oh... 2008? I played in the beta years ago.

Let's hope that doesn't happen with PSO2.

PSU30055337
Nov 24, 2011, 03:49 AM
I don't understand why some of you are so against pvp. It most likely won't be forced on you, and they would probably make it into some sort of arena type area.

Cayenne
Nov 24, 2011, 04:07 AM
I'm not against it, I just don't care about it at all

Nitro Vordex
Nov 24, 2011, 04:31 AM
I'm more worried about the asshats community it will bring.

rezakon
Nov 24, 2011, 06:57 AM
Wouldn't it be awesome to join a random game while the players are at boss, then wait till the boss is almost dead and the players are all on cooldown. When that happens, gank them, kill the boss and ninja their rare drop? :D

Reminded me of the good ole days in diablo 2! or more importantly ultima!

It would be awesome to have PKing mechanics in the game for open games but I doubt it'll happen in PS, ever! Sadly even diablo 3 won't be bringing back good ole pking, we are a dying breed of pvper that like the hunt and not these stupid glorified arenas/battlefields in games these days.

Heck even open world pvp in most mmorpgs these days are shit because you can't lay the fear of god into people like you could when perma-death was the only way to roll.


I'm more worried about the asshats community it will bring.

Yeah sadly most the pvp community like to hold their e-peens in hand and slap it around like it means something more then anything others have done in the game, the two examples above are the only games I've played where boosting about kills was a quality achievement. I was there the day in ultima when richard garriott was killed, that was the greatest shit ever!

Angelo
Nov 24, 2011, 07:32 AM
I don't know where you all are pulling this outdated idea of what a 'PvP community' is.

If you've played any online game in the past 3 years you'd notice that instanced PvP is usually a fairly casual thing that most players participate in.

This old model of PvPers being gankers out to loot you for your gears a la Lineage II is dead for the most part. Most new games don't even allow for that kind of grief-play mechanically. The PvP that people want now are 'BG' style small team vs small team battles that offer rewards and points. This is most likely what we'll be seeing in PSO2.

NoiseHERO
Nov 24, 2011, 10:02 AM
I don't know where you all are pulling this outdated idea of what a 'PvP community' is.

If you've played any online game in the past 3 years you'd notice that instanced PvP is usually a fairly casual thing that most players participate in.

This old model of PvPers being gankers out to loot you for your gears a la Lineage II is dead for the most part. Most new games don't even allow for that kind of grief-play mechanically. The PvP that people want now are 'BG' style small team vs small team battles that offer rewards and points. This is most likely what we'll be seeing in PSO2.

Except for games that are BASED on PVP.

But obviously PSO2 won't be anything like that.

Positive
Nov 24, 2011, 10:59 AM
The pvp will be a card game obviously.

NoiseHERO
Nov 24, 2011, 11:45 AM
The pvp will be a card game obviously.

I wanna punch your username in the balls.

And it better be a card game!

EvilMag
Nov 24, 2011, 03:00 PM
And I hope you get to play this card game on Motorcycles.

Yayyyyy for lame Yugioh 5D's jokes.

Zyrusticae
Nov 24, 2011, 04:12 PM
I don't know where you all are pulling this outdated idea of what a 'PvP community' is.
See: WoW, any DotA-alike.

Those communities make me fear for the future of humanity as a whole.

Angelo
Nov 24, 2011, 11:18 PM
See: WoW, any DotA-alike.

Those communities make me fear for the future of humanity as a whole.

Really? I was speaking for WoW too when I said all of that. Maybe the servers I witnessed were just incredibly chill or something? BGs are usually the main outlet for PvP in that game, and it's usually a fairly balanced and friendly affair.

As for the DotA RTS games... I'm not going to argue there. After ragequitting LoL due to asshats, you are right.

RemiusTA
Nov 25, 2011, 12:32 AM
In a PvE game that has PvP options, PvP players will always be a minority.


PvP is simply a very good way to keep the game fresh and fun even after you're done grinding, or simply don't feel like grinding that day. Simple fun, thats all. Pso nor Psp2 had a pvp mode deep enough to ever warrant elitism or even serious competitive play.


I'd figure it'll be like a match of Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Skill will definitely set you apart from noobs, but aside from that, the game itself won't support mechanics that are capable of a true competitive 1:1 scene. This way it can simply stay lighthearted, and matches will revolve more around items, teamwork and a bit of luck instead of pure solo skill.



But even if it was tournament-level in terms of PvP....i dont know why people are so afraid of competitive players. It'll be absolutely no worse than current PSU's stratification.

Cayenne
Nov 25, 2011, 06:28 AM
I rather they ignore PvP, I just don't want the game to be delayed just to add unneeded content.

That's really my only reason why I say no to it.

RemiusTA
Nov 25, 2011, 04:55 PM
How would the game be del-


...i give up. I really do.

NoiseHERO
Nov 25, 2011, 05:23 PM
delayed just to add unneeded content.

Re-read this thread.

LOL...

Keilyn
Nov 25, 2011, 05:23 PM
Not being PvP in PSO and PSU didn't stop certain individuals from acting like hot elitist garbage trying to push their own way onto others. In fact the community was still split into two crowds....TAers and non-TAers where TAers for the most part actively treat non-TAers like garbage and lower life forms.

Hell, didn't prevent people from going from Europe and North America to Japan to try to TA against Japanese, and then say "fuck it, we can't win in this high ping, so we will just call ourselves the best western TAers this side of the east"

Having no PvP also didn't prevent the different cybersex groups that formed in the different version of the game, or entering the different player rooms to buy items to find players initiating in Cybersex and forgetting to lock the room...and this is a game with a Teen Rating.

My point is that regardless of having or not having PvP, there will always be a need for competition among those who desire for it and they will do anything to make themselves look better.

PSO isn't the only game like this you know. Look at all the players who play Civilization V and think they are some hot shit because they can win the singleplayer game on Deity. How about all of those singleplayer console games where people do Time Attack videos and post them on youtube.

At least in a game with a Ranking System when a player speaks out of line, it gets to the higher rankers and that player will be lucky if he isn't player killed or Arena-Challenged and wasted. The same is true in Shooters. You tell players you are the best in the world in some shooter game outside the confines of public and private ladders and you will get your ass kicked so much that the only way you will find peace is to change your screen name and shut your mouth.

NoiseHERO
Nov 25, 2011, 05:40 PM
Keilyn is right something I forgot to think of.

Taking out PVP won't make people less assholes. It'll just give them something to focus on, instead of applying it to the rest of the game.

And I'm pretty sure PVP won't be important enough to the point, where you have to deal with annoying PVPers once you log in. Like what was said many times before, if anything it'll give the game it's own subculture and they'll be in their own little world.

Yes PVPers have bad attitudes, but it's not hard to just NOT play with them. Which unlike games that DO rely on PVP we should be able to do.

And yeah it's confirmed there's no "PVP at launch" which means it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to hold back or delay the game with "useless content" if the game would already be released by the time it's being developed... Cayenne...

D-Inferno
Nov 25, 2011, 11:48 PM
It would be cool if there were various kinds of competitive play among players. One example being that LOGiN quest in JP BB.

Macman
Nov 27, 2011, 04:12 PM
Not being PvP in PSO and PSU didn't stop certain individuals from acting like hot elitist garbage trying to push their own way onto others. In fact the community was still split into two crowds....TAers and non-TAers where TAers for the most part actively treat non-TAers like garbage and lower life forms.That's entirely true, especially if you look at the Blue Burst private server.

kazuuya
Nov 29, 2011, 04:14 AM
To be honest, I don't care if they add PvP since I suck at such things anyways. xD Though it could be fun to play a Round or two with close friends. (Even if we all suck at it, most probably. lol.) I think people who don't like PvP should just ignore it and stay away from it.

Angelo
Nov 29, 2011, 05:55 AM
Not being PvP in PSO and PSU didn't stop certain individuals from acting like hot elitist garbage trying to push their own way onto others. In fact the community was still split into two crowds....TAers and non-TAers where TAers for the most part actively treat non-TAers like garbage and lower life forms.

Hell, didn't prevent people from going from Europe and North America to Japan to try to TA against Japanese, and then say "fuck it, we can't win in this high ping, so we will just call ourselves the best western TAers this side of the east"

Having no PvP also didn't prevent the different cybersex groups that formed in the different version of the game, or entering the different player rooms to buy items to find players initiating in Cybersex and forgetting to lock the room...and this is a game with a Teen Rating.

My point is that regardless of having or not having PvP, there will always be a need for competition among those who desire for it and they will do anything to make themselves look better.

PSO isn't the only game like this you know. Look at all the players who play Civilization V and think they are some hot shit because they can win the singleplayer game on Deity. How about all of those singleplayer console games where people do Time Attack videos and post them on youtube.

At least in a game with a Ranking System when a player speaks out of line, it gets to the higher rankers and that player will be lucky if he isn't player killed or Arena-Challenged and wasted. The same is true in Shooters. You tell players you are the best in the world in some shooter game outside the confines of public and private ladders and you will get your ass kicked so much that the only way you will find peace is to change your screen name and shut your mouth.

Huh? There was PvP in both PSO (battle mode) and PSU (battle mode in PsPo2)

NoiseHERO
Nov 29, 2011, 06:11 AM
Huh? There was PvP in both PSO (battle mode) and PSU (battle mode in PsPo2)

Yet both were completely irrelevant in any form of elitism that this community has ever suffered.

Angelo
Nov 30, 2011, 02:23 AM
Yet both were completely irrelevant in any form of elitism that this community has ever suffered.

You must not remember Vega 1-1 on GC or the XxPKxX's then.

RemiusTA
Nov 30, 2011, 02:31 AM
No. I dont.

Arkios
Nov 30, 2011, 04:09 AM
I would prefer if PvP was excluded and maybe added later on with an expansion/content patch.

When I play an RPG or MMO, PvP is literally the last reason on my list. It was moderately fun in WoW to waste time when I had nothing else to do, or on the occasion when PvP gear was an upgrade for PvE (way back in the day). It also works in an open world MMO because you can travel along and come across people to fight. PSO is an instanced game, so they would have to incorporate a "Battle/Arena" mode for PvP to work. It just seems really lame to me and not worth the amount of time it would take to make it work properly and be balanced.

ARX-7
Dec 25, 2011, 10:02 PM
I only like to do PVP in PSO at endgame when I'm all geared up.

Angelo
Dec 25, 2011, 10:13 PM
I only like to do PVP in PSO at endgame when I'm all geared up.

I'm pretty sure this is how most people feel.

PvP is usually considered 'end game content' in every game, particularly instanced PvP, which is obviously what PSO2 will be getting.

Ark22
Dec 25, 2011, 10:38 PM
8-) Pvp? I will wreck

Fayorei
Dec 25, 2011, 11:43 PM
I don't understand why some of you are so against pvp. It most likely won't be forced on you, and they would probably make it into some sort of arena type area.

I'm sure a ton of people know that PSO had PVP. At least I think it did, I never used it. And a soccer game of some sort?:confused:

Noblewine
Dec 26, 2011, 12:14 AM
I can wait for pvp but I rather just play the main story and enjoy the combat first.

Cayenne
Dec 26, 2011, 12:36 AM
I can wait for pvp but I rather just play the main story and enjoy the combat first.

You make it sound like PvP is in the making lol.

BIG OLAF
Dec 26, 2011, 12:48 AM
Good. But, I know it will be. Then I'll get to hear the cries of "LOL WELL TAKE ME 1v1 NOOB!!" on a regular basis. Fun, fun.

Noblewine
Dec 26, 2011, 03:25 AM
You make it sound like PvP is in the making lol.

I'm a patient person. I don't know what you mean though. (Sorta sleepy I've been level grinding in psp2).

Angelo
Dec 26, 2011, 05:16 AM
You make it sound like PvP is in the making lol.

The fact that they showed the game at GStar in Korean is like a 90% sure sign that the game will have some sort of PvP eventually.

Cayenne
Dec 26, 2011, 06:54 PM
I'm a patient person. I don't know what you mean though. (Sorta sleepy I've been level grinding in psp2).
You make it sound like since PvP isn't here yet, the way the entire game plays itself is a good consolation prize until the PvP part is released.


The fact that they showed the game at GStar in Korean is like a 90% sure sign that the game will have some sort of PvP eventually.

I don't want to rain on your parade but come on, this is a team based adventure game where you only kill computer controlled A.I. that's being built with zero PvP in mind (for now). There are mentions and a few hints out there that may warrant PvP might get implemented but I'm 100% sure nothing will happen within the first year of release and about 90% sure it won't be made the years after that.

I'm sure the reason they mentioned no PvP for now is because people most likely ask him all the time about it and making a simple statement will stop everyone from always asking. If you have MMO mentioned in a game, people will ask about PvP.

RemiusTA
Dec 26, 2011, 08:19 PM
Good. But, I know it will be. Then I'll get to hear the cries of "LOL WELL TAKE ME 1v1 NOOB!!" on a regular basis. Fun, fun.

I can't see that happening. This isn't that kind of game atmosphere.

What could possibly invoke a fight on this game aside from someone stealing a drop from someone else, or destroying a room too fast? (neither of which are going to be issues on PSO2 due to system changes)

Xaeris
Dec 26, 2011, 08:43 PM
How do you figure it's not that sort of game atmosphere? The population of people that will be playing PSO2 isn't different from the populations that play every other online game in the crucial aspect: anonymous males behind keyboards.

BIG OLAF
Dec 26, 2011, 08:44 PM
I can't see that happening. This isn't that kind of game atmosphere.

There are hyper-competitive asshats in every game with any kind of player versus player aspect. It just may not have as many as, say, Call of Duty. But they'll be there, and they always seem to find me.

RemiusTA
Dec 26, 2011, 09:22 PM
Oh, well i guess you're in trouble then.


Retarded dipshits on forums always seem to find and pick pointless arguments with me too. So i know how you feel, Olaf.

BIG OLAF
Dec 26, 2011, 09:43 PM
Yeah, I swear if there was a My Little Pony MMO, and I played it, they'd still find me. It's like a sort of curse.

Angelo
Dec 26, 2011, 11:49 PM
I don't want to rain on your parade but come on, this is a team based adventure game where you only kill computer controlled A.I. that's being built with zero PvP in mind (for now). There are mentions and a few hints out there that may warrant PvP might get implemented but I'm 100% sure nothing will happen within the first year of release and about 90% sure it won't be made the years after that.

I'm sure the reason they mentioned no PvP for now is because people most likely ask him all the time about it and making a simple statement will stop everyone from always asking. If you have MMO mentioned in a game, people will ask about PvP.


Haha. Okay then, time will tell. PvP eventually came to both the PSO and PSU series... but hey... I mean we can ignore both history and common sense if you'd like.

Malachite
Dec 26, 2011, 11:52 PM
Yeah.. that whole post kinda blew my mind too.

Seems kind of condescending to you, as if you don't know what PS is.. yet they don't seem to know that it has had PvP multiple times.

Cayenne
Dec 27, 2011, 01:45 AM
Oh, you mean that shitty Battle mode? That's the PvP you're all talking about?

I thought you all meant real PvP like WoW with your own equipment, battlegrounds, kill players while they're questing, that kinda stuff.

Battle mode is something that could easily be made.

Malachite
Dec 27, 2011, 02:42 AM
It could be anything. Point is, it's nothing new to Phantasy Star.

Cayenne
Dec 27, 2011, 05:59 AM
True but it wasn't a feature the online series was known for, it's more of a quick time waster like lobby soccer, something you play for 10 mins or so. That's probably why I forgot about it.

Angelo
Dec 27, 2011, 09:15 AM
Oh, you mean that shitty Battle mode? That's the PvP you're all talking about?

I thought you all meant real PvP like WoW with your own equipment, battlegrounds, kill players while they're questing, that kinda stuff.

Battle mode is something that could easily be made.

Killing players while questing? Probably not.

Battlegrounds with your own gear competing for a reward? Could certainly happen, especially with 12 players on a map now.

GCoffee
Dec 27, 2011, 09:32 AM
Using multi-party areas for a slaughter feast between groups sounds plenty fun. Too bad it will never be implemented.

r00tabaga
Dec 27, 2011, 10:37 AM
Using multi-party areas for a slaughter feast between groups sounds plenty fun. Too bad it will never be implemented.

Player-vs-player...no thx
Players-vs-players...maybe...the 2 highest ranked get to be captains and pick their teams one by one. Haha! No respawns like Gears of War. That'd be cool.

Blueblur
Dec 27, 2011, 11:46 AM
Killing players while questing? Probably not.

Battlegrounds with your own gear competing for a reward? Could certainly happen, especially with 12 players on a map now.

That actually sounds really really fun. Damn, now I want that.

Slidikins
Dec 27, 2011, 12:25 PM
As someone who dabbled in WoW for way too much time, I'm against the notion of PvP in PSO2.

Battlegrounds with your own gear competing for a reward? Could certainly happen, especially with 12 players on a map now.
This is a cool idea on paper, but what makes PvP fun is balance. If the classes aren't balanced, PvP isn't going to take off. That's completely understandable from any perspective, I think. Unfortunately, what I noticed in WoW was that balancing PvE had adverse effects on PvE.

Hypothetical issue:
Class A is too powerful in PvP because it gets this and this technique at Lv30 while having so-and-so melee capability. So, they nerf the class down to techniques at Lv15/20. Suddenly, fewer players want to pick that class in PvE because of the nerf; that class is being overshadowed by its peers in PvE now.

It's a delicate balance between PvP and PvE, and unless the game was built with both in mind from the ground up, I'd rather not shove it in.

NoiseHERO
Dec 27, 2011, 01:05 PM
You can make it so everyone only does 1 "dmg" and all the classes will still be broken in ""PVE"" on PS games.

Akaimizu
Dec 27, 2011, 01:40 PM
Yeah, I swear if there was a My Little Pony MMO, and I played it, they'd still find me. It's like a sort of curse.

Hard to imagine My Little Pony MMO becoming grief central due to that.
Scary thought.

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic........however, there's no Magic in this place.
When there's more Friendship in Mortal Kombat, then you start to wonder about things where you are.

----
Alas, I often don't participate in PvP because I always tend to favor these fun technical classes which usually get left out of said running. The classes elites totally run from because they've been calculated to tier low.

It would be nice if they could do it and *not* have it so that one class has the simple 1-button win strategy, which wins it all, until some nerf comes around, which it switches to the next in line win button. PvP would be a nice strategy if it means that the game actually has just as much or more depth than the single player experience. With PvE, Sega found some level of balance due to monster matchups and various things that promote you to switch to various abilities of your character. You were promoted to spread certain things around based on who you are with.

1 vs 1 is something that I would imagine would take time to sort out, and perhaps they just haven't figured out how to make that idea into something not only balanced, but something requiring more technical knowledge than find the right ability and spam it. Making it balanced for groups (ala. Guild Wars style) is another thing. Would be nice, if Sega can actually spread the usefulness around better. Remember, they have had issues with balancing tech vs. attack power vs. status effects. Something clearly a lot of the competition does way better on. What ends up happening even on teams, is that they pick all of the same uber class (with that ability) and steamroll everybody except those doing the same who just were quicker on the button or more coordinated with that exploit.

I, for one, would like to see them really put some to the task of rethinking stuff before they bring it to battle. Learn a good thing or two from the competitive ones. Stuff like DOTA and LOL often bring some great strategies even on the support-role part, in terms of strengthening teams and keeping players from thinking the straight Power teams are the only good thing.

PlinderD
Dec 27, 2011, 03:08 PM
Eh, PvP is less of an issue for me in PSO. Since the design of the game focuses less on having a specific party when sheer numbers can make up for it. I doubt PSO2 is going to change that.

There are some MMORPGs which I just stopped bothering to play because the PvE suffered severely due to the high level population being composed of PvP classes.

As for the actual appeal of PvP for me. Probably zero just like in most MMORPGs. I love PvP, but not when luck with loot is a factor. Like how I got into Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh only when I found online simulators which allowed players to edit (within legal bounds obviously) their teams and decks. Actually breeding Pokemon or buying tons of booster packs or the whole mess with trading/buying individual cards? No thanks.

If PSO2 offered that type of PvP, where you can manipulate your character's level, skill build, and equipment, sure. But yeah I don't think that's going ot happen. So yeah. How soon or later PvP is implemented in PSO2, no big win or loss for me either way.

Cayenne
Dec 27, 2011, 07:15 PM
This is what I meant about "true" PvP never happening, it's a lot of work alone just to get PvE and PvP balanced properly and even that will require patches after patches after patches that won't ever end.

Battle Mode is something that won't effect the PvE side of the game but if they do make it and ends up playing like PSO's battle mode, I know I won't be playing it.

Also, rename the thread to "No Battle Mode at launch".

Angelo
Dec 27, 2011, 08:21 PM
This is going to piss a lot of people off....

...but a good way to balance the classes is to make sure that they're balanced in PvP. I mean honestly... it's a fairly decent equalizer in terms of discovering utility.

Also... I saw someone differentiating 'Player vs Player' and 'PlayerS vs PlayerS'. Is there anyone or any company who takes single 1v1 seriously? Even the most balanced games never take that into consideration because modern PvP is all based around group utility and teamwork.

It's almost like the bulk of you folks really haven't played an online game outside of the Phantasy Star bubble for 10 years.

r00tabaga
Dec 27, 2011, 08:28 PM
This is going to piss a lot of people off....

...but a good way to balance the classes is to make sure that they're balanced in PvP. I mean honestly... it's a fairly decent equalizer in terms of discovering utility.

Also... I saw someone differentiating 'Player vs Player' and 'PlayerS vs PlayerS'. Is there anyone or any company who takes single 1v1 seriously? Even the most balanced games never take that into consideration because modern PvP is all based around group utility and teamwork.

It's almost like the bulk of you folks really haven't played an online game outside of the Phantasy Star bubble for 10 years.

You haven't played PSPo2 then I take it. That's all I ever got in battle mode was one person. Really lame.
I'd rather they just leave it out all together honestly.

Angelo
Dec 27, 2011, 08:29 PM
You haven't played PSPo2 then I take it. That's all I ever got in battle mode was one person. Really lame.
I'd rather they just leave it out all together honestly.

Really? I played PSPo2 a lot around launch and I always managed to get into some fun 2v2 games.

r00tabaga
Dec 27, 2011, 08:36 PM
I wish! I would prolly love PvP if I played PC games and it was done correctly. Sometimes a break from the grinding is nice.

Enforcer MKV
Dec 27, 2011, 09:09 PM
I'm just happy they're focusing on making what everyone loves about PSO work before adding all of this extra stuff to it...I won't be upset if they never add it, frankly...that isn't even the point of Phantasy Star to a lot of people.

NoiseHERO
Dec 27, 2011, 09:51 PM
PSPo2?

I thought you just spam the spear skill to win that pvp. D:

Angelo
Dec 27, 2011, 11:01 PM
PSPo2?

I thought you just spam the spear skill to win that pvp. D:

Shhh!

PlinderD
Dec 27, 2011, 11:01 PM
Group PvP rarely needs to be fixed. Only when very serious imbalances pop up do developers get off their asses.

1v1 is where all the imbalance talk usually stems from, and where most of the issues go untouched in MMORPGs. And has the biggest negative effect on the quality of PvE, especially in high level play.

And as far as balance issues in group PvP, usually players just fix it themselves by changing their team roster. In 1v1 PvP players need to either come up with "rules" that only a few people will follow (unless you have a good community of serious PvP'ers) and are usually biased or make a new character just for PvP.

Angelo
Dec 27, 2011, 11:08 PM
Honestly... 1v1 PvP is only an issue in games with open world PvP, and this will never be an issue in a lobby game like PSO2.

PlinderD
Dec 27, 2011, 11:28 PM
Not really, what is most likely to make PSO2 not have issues with 1v1 PvP affecting PvE is that high end PvE will probably still be won by any combination of classes.

So let's say Hunters become the optimal PvP class and 90% of the high level population is composed of Hunters, it doesn't matter. Chances are a group composed solely of Hunters will still be able to take down the most difficult PvE challenge in the game.

No matter how popular PvP becomes, anyone who plays a Hunter won't have issues participating in high level PvE without waiting for a Force to pop up and join their party.

r00tabaga
Dec 27, 2011, 11:49 PM
Not really, what is most likely to make PSO2 not have issues with 1v1 PvP affecting PvE is that high end PvE will probably still be won by any combination of classes.

So let's say Hunters become the optimal PvP class and 90% of the high level population is composed of Hunters, it doesn't matter. Chances are a group composed solely of Hunters will still be able to take down the most difficult PvE challenge in the game.

No matter how popular PvP becomes, anyone who plays a Hunter won't have issues participating in high level PvE without waiting for a Force to pop up and join their party.

OK, now I am officially lost. "First you were like...& then you were like...", oh never mind!:whip:

Cayenne
Dec 28, 2011, 12:16 AM
You're all gonna fry your brains trying to think how PvP will work in PSO2.

It's gonna be a "Battle Mode" (completely different from standard MMO PvP).

In order for PvP to work the way other games do, the entire game has to be made from scratch with PvP being part of the core gameplay, it won't happen.

PlinderD
Dec 28, 2011, 12:20 AM
There are games where team composition is not only important but mandatory in the hardest dungeons.

Let me give a simple example.

Suppose you have 3 classes. A Warrior, Mage, and Healer. Warriors tank, Mages deal lots of damage, Healers keep the party healed.

In a high end dungeon run, there's a boss which deals a ton of damage that could kill the Mage and Healer quickly, but the Warrior can tank it without dropping dead in an instant. So the Warrior is required. Now while the Warrior can withstand the damage, he'll eventually run out of healing potions and die. So that's where the Healer comes in. But the Healer has limited MP the boss will eventually wipeout the party once the Healer runs out of MP. That's where the Mage comes in.

The Warrior draws attention of the boss away from the Mage and Healer. The Healer keeps the Warrior alive and heals whatever damage spills over to him and the Mage. While the Mage kills the boss before the Healer runs out of MP.

It's the basic Tank-DPS-Healer party mechanic.

Now the game introduces PvP. In PvP, the Mage deals so much damage the Healer simply can't keep up with it. The Warrior falls to the Mage's long range attacks. But the Warrior is still able to outdamage a Healer.

So the heirarchy in 1v1 PvP is Mage > Warrior > Healer. Suppose the high level community loves to PvP. The population will follow that. There'll be lots of Mages, a moderate amount of Warriors, then a small group of Healers.

So when those hordes of Mages want to run a dungeon, there'll only be a limited amount of Warriors to tank for them and even a smaller amount of Healers to keep the party alive.

But what if 3 Mages could run high end dungeons without any real problem? Or 3 Warriors? Or 3 Healers? Then Mages don't need to compete for Healers because they can run dungeons fine without them. Will the run go faster if a Healer was around, sure, but at least it's reasonably feasible even without one.

So even if the community becomes too invested in PvP, it's not a real problem as far as PvE is concerned. I can play a high level Mage and not have to worry about how there are 5 of us and for every high level Healer. I don't have to compete with the other 4 Mages for that one Healer because even I don't get the Healer, I can just party with two of those Mages and still run dungeons. A little slower but still at least the party doesn't wipe.

NoiseHERO
Dec 28, 2011, 12:59 AM
But this is also why some games (at least the ones that give a shit) look for a way seperate their PVP balance, from their unoriginal PVE balance.

Either way, as we've said 453245 times throughout multiple threads, there's no way PS has ever had or ever will have a type a of "PVP" that would largely effect the game other than a simple pass time, balanced or unbalanced.

Normally I find the least annoying balance to be the rock paper scissors+team play/free-for-all when it comes to PVP, though.

Angelo
Dec 28, 2011, 03:22 AM
there's no way PS has ever had or ever will have a type a of "PVP" that would largely effect the game other than a simple pass time,.

Thank you! PvP would most likely be some fun post-quest activity with a humble reward (like photon drops or points to make C mode weapons) that no one really dedicates their entire playtime to.

I've dreamed of a fleshed out Battle mode since Ep 1 and 2, so this is a big hope for me.

I don't see why people are so vehemently against an optional form of play. I personally thought C-mode was the most dumb and aspie thing about the series but if players enjoyed it then I hope they get it again.

Cayenne
Dec 28, 2011, 05:08 AM
I'm for it if it's fun to play (PSO battle mode was boring) but others here are discussing it's like it's gonna be a traditional MMO PvP with a deep combat system that requires years of dungeon raiding experience and key skills.

It's a simple, any dumbass can play, hack n' slash game were the only strategy required is to learn enemy/boss patterns and be sure you can heal yourself and if you happen to play with other people than you kick more ass and if someone can heal the team then it's a bonus.

I'm sure battle mode will require a basic knowledge of the controls and the best weapon you can find on the field, nothing real deep.

Mitz
Dec 28, 2011, 07:27 AM
It's a simple, any dumbass can play, hack n' slash game were the only strategy required is to learn enemy/boss patterns and be sure you can heal yourself and if you happen to play with other people than you kick more ass and if someone can heal the team then it's a bonus.

Unlike any other game you've played recently?


I'm sure battle mode will require a basic knowledge of the controls and the best weapon you can find on the field, nothing real deep.

This is most likely the deepest ST will wander into these unknown waters. Battle mode was horrendous and never looked after and seeing as ST isn't even promoting the possibility of PVP, it says enough about their intent.

RemiusTA
Dec 28, 2011, 12:58 PM
You have long range bullets, you have blocking, you have magic and you have dodging.

They could make PvP very interesting. Rangers and Forces would probably rule the world due to being able to murder you before you got close, but people also seem to forget Hunters can shoot bullets too. (Gunslash)

As long as Ranger bullets do low damage and do not flinch, and Auto-aim doesnt piss balls for forces, i can see PvP being quite addictive. Just scale the damage down for more than 1-hit KO and limit the PA's/Weapons on the field.


They could even go farther, and either remove or standardize PAs for use on the modes. Even PSO had a mode full of pre-set rules and equipment.



Why are people anything but excited for PvP? Seriously, i dont know what the problem is. Anything to diversify the game is a welcome addition. Do people SERIOUSLY want to camp in rooms and wack dumb enemies all day?



The only issue is, Animations and player states have ALOT to do with how to balance PvP (or just plain combat) in an action game, and most action games like this are designed for PvE only.

For instance, how Devil May Cry specifically chooses what abilities you're able to cancel your attacks with and when. It allows Dante/Nero to say extremely mobile and flexible while on the offensive for quick evasion, but doesn't allow you to do much damage while evading. Which was the exact opposite of what the Step-cancel was doing in the first Alpha Test. You should be able to evade cancel out of attacks, but being able to attack WHILE evading pretty much makes you OP. If you bail out of an attack, it should put you out of range unless you dodged the wrong way, in which case you probably should have just jumped or blocked.


HOWEVER, the Step Cancel is a step in the right direction. Anyone ever played a swarm action game WITHOUT the ability to cancel certian animations into dodging/jumping (FORCE UNLEASHED)? It's absolutely infuriating, it makes you feel super stiff when doing anything.




If the devs are stingy with editing animations (and they are, PSU animations are being reused and none of the classes seem to have unique ones), then it'll probably have a great FFA / TDM experience but a one-sided duel mode the moment someone finds an exploit.

NoiseHERO
Dec 28, 2011, 01:12 PM
Why are people anything but excited for PvP? Seriously, i dont know what the problem is. Anything to diversify the game is a welcome addition. Do people SERIOUSLY want to camp in rooms and wack dumb enemies all day?

Sadly this is probably true according to the months we spent trying to explain how not big of a deal PVP could be. OR for some reason just the word PVP automatically and unfairly translates into one thing that largely includes a shitty community and nothing else in any POSSIBLE way.

And then people complain about the way we unfairly describe lolis. >3>

Before people miss the point and say "ungh how are lolis and pvp even related *whiny voice*" I'm just talking about how people think one word should only be used to describe one thing, as if we're writing a legal contract. Since it always breaks into stupid arguments where it seems like nobodies even thinking of the same one thing then they bitch about what's technically the misuse of one word.

But yeah don't you guys wanna just punch all those stupid, snooty looking characters that people make, in the stomach after they try to mock you with their 25 year old with the brain of a 14 year old elitism? THEN VOTE FOR BATTLE MODE!

Zyrusticae
Dec 28, 2011, 01:33 PM
And then people complain about the way we unfairly describe lolis. >3>

Before people miss the point and say "ungh how are lolis and pvp even related *whiny voice*" I'm just talking about how people think one word should only be used to describe one thing, as if we're writing a legal contract. Since it always breaks into stupid arguments where it seems like nobodies even thinking of the same one thing then they bitch about what's technically the misuse of one word.
LOL OKAY.

So it's perfectly okay if I use the phrase "PvP" to mean "anything and everything that involves competition with another player, including cooperative time attacks"? Because, y'know, while language is flexible, it kind of loses its meaning when every single word is completely overbroad and you have to invent completely different words or phrases just to be able to clearly communicate your intent.

I cannot believe people are arguing that overbroad usage of language is perfectly okay. It is NOT okay, it is part of the reason that 90% of the things we say to each other go through one ear and out the other. If anything, we need to be working to fix our language so that there is much, much less ambiguity. The fact that we even get into arguments about this crap in the first place should tell you enough about how important that is.

NoiseHERO
Dec 28, 2011, 01:44 PM
LOL OKAY.

So it's perfectly okay if I use the phrase "PvP" to mean "anything and everything that involves competition with another player, including cooperative time attacks"? Because, y'know, while language is flexible, it kind of loses its meaning when every single word is completely overbroad and you have to invent completely different words or phrases just to be able to clearly communicate your intent.

I cannot believe people are arguing that overbroad usage of language is perfectly okay. It is NOT okay, it is part of the reason that 90% of the things we say to each other go through one ear and out the other. If anything, we need to be working to fix our language so that there is much, much less ambiguity. The fact that we even get into arguments about this crap in the first place should tell you enough about how important that is.

This an online forum where people come to talk about some videogame from a series no one but us plays anymore. This isn't school or anything serious and important, otherwise most people WOULD want to use words a correct way other than a simple common understanding of the way it's used in exaggeration.

Basically what your saying may as well be no different from the things that made people hate grammar nazis.

So in general, no one should care about all that shit, as long as they find SOME way to make sure we understand what we're all talking about. And yet even when we explain it to each other constantly it just becomes the usual "NO I STILL HAVE TO BE RIGHT" E-peen fest.

And what's worse it happens either way you use the word properly or not!

In fact just talking about it leads into another pointless right and wrong scenario and internet forums are stupid!

So let's just go back to talking about how PVP could actually be fun or useful.

Zyrusticae
Dec 28, 2011, 02:34 PM
Sigh.

Goddamnit.

Seriously, the internet gets no freakin' respect at all. And the funny thing is, it's because people don't give it proper respect that it doesn't get the proper respect it deserves (yep, it's circular), which reduces the quality of discussions across the board and just makes it less and less useful as a communication medium overall.

Throwing around the excuse "It's the internet, and it's a forum, and both are stupid!" all you want, but that is just an excuse, and it is part of the problem.

But whatever! Clearly I am expecting too much here. I must admit, it is very clearly outside of this site's scope to expect people to at least put in the effort to communicate clearly and efficiently across a medium that uses text in its entirety.

Funny, though, how I can actually get decent discourse out of other sites. Probably because they don't have posting populations so small that they may as well be incestuous. Or redneck neckbeard posters, for that matter.

RemiusTA
Dec 28, 2011, 03:08 PM
woah woah


what the hell happened? We was just chillin and then an argumement just comes out of nowh-oh hi zyrusticae how are you doing



what we gonna argue about today, lets just get it over with.


all mods on standby, the thread is dooooooomed

Angelo
Dec 28, 2011, 03:16 PM
You have long range bullets, you have blocking, you have magic and you have dodging.

They could make PvP very interesting. Rangers and Forces would probably rule the world due to being able to murder you before you got close, but people also seem to forget Hunters can shoot bullets too. (Gunslash)

As long as Ranger bullets do low damage and do not flinch, and Auto-aim doesnt piss balls for forces, i can see PvP being quite addictive. Just scale the damage down for more than 1-hit KO and limit the PA's/Weapons on the field.



Again, I'm not knocking you, but this is all typed up with a very non-dynamic point of view from the standpoint of 1v1 PvP. This is not how PvP works anymore since most modern PvP is geared towards group mechanics.

What happens is when you are tossed into a scenario like this you actually have each team trying to pick off the Healers and Mages (FOs) first on each side because of how they turn the tide of battle. Melee is almost always picked off last because they are the hardest to kill and can be killed faster once their life support (Healing FOs) are gone.

What you have now is a game of chess where you're trying to protect your FOs and damage the opponents FOs at the same time, what would make this even more dynamic than most MMOs is that in this game HUs can 'protect' in more than one way (taunting CC), they can physically move in front of FOs and block because of collision detection and they have moves which physically fling, push, and 'lock up' opponents. FO's can also do their 'dodge vanish' magic...thing, and secondary effects (freeze, burn, shock, etc) to keep them safe. RAs of course would take the role of ranged damage and usually just play cannon fodder to this whole ordeal, trying to pick off FOs and other RAs first while their respective HUs aren't on their toes. This would create for some very dynamic scenarios that require much more thought than the pattern memorization that may become monotonous from endless PvE. I'm obviously not really knocking PvE... since it's the meat and potatoes of the PSonline games, but it would be a nice break from the grind at the end of a play session with good friends.

I think it could be really fun. Like I said earlier, it would also be great if we racked up some sort of currency by playing enough matches. I remember in PsPo2 you got points for both winning and losing, you just received less for losing. Maybe we could save up these points and buy special but non-game-breaking rewards like the C-mode weapons from PSO? I'd love something like that,

NoiseHERO
Dec 28, 2011, 03:49 PM
Sigh.

Goddamnit.

Seriously, the internet gets no freakin' respect at all. And the funny thing is, it's because people don't give it proper respect that it doesn't get the proper respect it deserves (yep, it's circular), which reduces the quality of discussions across the board and just makes it less and less useful as a communication medium overall.

Throwing around the excuse "It's the internet, and it's a forum, and both are stupid!" all you want, but that is just an excuse, and it is part of the problem.

But whatever! Clearly I am expecting too much here. I must admit, it is very clearly outside of this site's scope to expect people to at least put in the effort to communicate clearly and efficiently across a medium that uses text in its entirety.

Funny, though, how I can actually get decent discourse out of other sites. Probably because they don't have posting populations so small that they may as well be incestuous. Or redneck neckbeard posters, for that matter.


Theirs a reason the "internet get's no respect" I don't know what else you think it deserves.

It's like I'm talking about a serial killer and I say, "We shouldn't trust bob to bring our children home from school haven't you heard? He's known for killing random people on the street." And then you're all like "SO?? THAT MEANS WE AUTOMATICALLY CAN'T TRUST HIM BECAUSE HE'S A SERIAL KILLER?"

You gotta stop doing this, you KNOW you have to stop doing this.

Besides, you make these pointless arguments too easy, all I have to say is, "Now go watch your crappy 2011 anime about lolis" at the end of this post and you'd probably go off on that too.

You gotta stop arguing about every tiny thing that you see as an injustice, you're just going to frustrate yourself even more, taking everything on the internet seriously/worrying about it too much is a huge part of that.

It's more fun to just have a damn logical discussion, and the issue I brought up earlier about our automatic failures to communicate is already a huge part of THAT.





TL;DR for the umteenth time... "FUGHETTABOOOOUUUTIIIIIT" If you just say your usual "I just can't~" then that just makes it your problem. And enjoy LOTS of future trolling and serial killers putting your kids in their basement. :\

[spoiler]JAPANESE SERIAL KILLERS BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THOSE PEDOPHILES THAT DRAW LOLI DOUJINS! [/spoiler-box]

Anyway on topic what did they say about PVP and koreans again? they would CONSIDER IT? or add it LATER, if this game is released in Korea (Because koreans need PVP or something like that) Either way I can't imagine Koreans NOT getting this game, if anything sounds like they gave them more attention than the US and EU...

Even if that make it sound like PVP is as good as eventually confirmed... What would that have to do with Koreans? and wouldn't mean that the PVP would HAVE to be taken more seriously?

I still don't think it'd affect the game the way they would do it, but they make it sound like it'd be more than just the "battle modes" we've had...

BIG OLAF
Dec 28, 2011, 03:51 PM
The only reason I wouldn't want PvP is, as I said before, there would be tryhard assholes that come out of the woodwork and use the system as a medium to flex their E-muscles. It happens in any sort of competitive atmosphere, no matter what it is.

But, if it gets added, I really don't care. I won't be partaking, but I'm not going to say "NO THX", because I know other people want it.


We was just chillin and then an argumement just comes out of nowh-oh hi Zyrusticae how are you doing

what we gonna argue about today, lets just get it over with.

Oh damn, I lol'd.

Malachite
Dec 28, 2011, 04:08 PM
I lol'd too. It's because you mentioned loli's, Mich.

You know you can't say anything about them without Zyru's loli-sense going off and him rushing to save the day.

RemiusTA
Dec 28, 2011, 04:20 PM
Again, I'm not knocking you, but this is all typed up with a very non-dynamic point of view from the standpoint of 1v1 PvP. This is not how PvP works anymore since most modern PvP is geared towards group mechanics.

Oh, well...I mean i was just speaking from the position of "this is definitely possible but only if they do [x]", you know?


The thing about this is, group mechanics make balancing something like PvP a MUCH easier concept, but if the mechanics for 1v1 PVP are set in stone, it will make everything fall into place a bit easier, because it means the system is solid. Of course I could be completely wrong, because a game that's perfect in 1v1 could be completely ruined in a multiplayer setting.



I credit Super Smash Brothers Melee for being a significantly solid game while maintaining 4-player mechanics, as there aren't too many of them around. That's how i envision the perfect PSO2 PvP. Extremely fun with team members, but you can still strip everything away, play bare-bones, and still have a deep game to enjoy.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4

And the ability to pull off some really wicked shit with a good teammate. Hunter + Ranger + Force wombo combo FTW, bitches.


Okay, im getting wayyyy ahead of myself. But thats why I was focused on 1v1 PvP. Phantasy Star allows you to choose any class and still hold your own in combat, except by using different playstyles. Melee vs. Range vs. Magic. Keep that aspect from PvE, and translate it into PvP. Bam, fun group battles AND duels.

Cayenne
Dec 28, 2011, 09:05 PM
I'm waiting for Loli v Loli!

RemiusTA
Dec 28, 2011, 11:03 PM
that word is forbidden around here Cayenne

Cayenne
Dec 28, 2011, 11:13 PM
Girl not old enough to vote v girl not old enough to vote. Better?

Blueblur
Dec 28, 2011, 11:19 PM
I agree with Angelo; PvP in this game will be an afterthought. It'll consist of another Battle Mode at best. And that's really disappointing but the team making this game and Sega have yet to make a competent PvP mode for any of these games.

moorebounce
Dec 29, 2011, 02:07 AM
I never truely liked PvP. To me PvP in games are like playing the lottery. Once you don't win a few times it's not as fun.

Cayenne
Dec 29, 2011, 06:30 AM
I agree with Angelo; PvP in this game will be an afterthought. It'll consist of another Battle Mode at best. And that's really disappointing but the team making this game and Sega have yet to make a competent PvP mode for any of these games.

All this is true.

Angelo
Dec 29, 2011, 09:02 AM
I agree with Angelo; PvP in this game will be an afterthought. It'll consist of another Battle Mode at best. And that's really disappointing but the team making this game and Sega have yet to make a competent PvP mode for any of these games.

Not exactly what I was saying, but yeah.

NoiseHERO
Dec 29, 2011, 09:08 AM
That's why PVP is only really something to play when killing monsters in a box gets boring, though.

Or for challenging/annoying your friends/"rivals"/that dumbass with the brain of a 12 year old that was talking too much shit.

lostinseganet
Dec 29, 2011, 09:14 AM
uhhhh no.It is significantly harder to mod games that are not alike. The more of the innards that are the same the easier to hack to do bad things to the non pvpers. To make such different innards in one game cost money noticeable more to the developer. So if they did go with pvp those innards could be quite similar, and thus easier to hack.

Akaimizu
Dec 29, 2011, 09:39 AM
To a degree, but I think there's plenty of games that do PvP quite well without it being separate, and they've been pretty good at fighting back hack attempts. We even have a Guild Wars 2 coming out after the success of their previous entry.

On the other hand. I think even for group-based PvP, they definitely need to fix up a number of things. Support roles have been balanced quite well in order to make PvP even remotely put a dent on stuff we see in some other MMOs and DOTA-style games.

Zyrusticae
Dec 29, 2011, 11:49 AM
I'm waiting for Loli v Loli!
I support this post.

Cayenne
Dec 29, 2011, 11:59 AM
LIES!!! LIES AND SLANDER!!!

RemiusTA
Dec 29, 2011, 01:44 PM
It is significantly harder to mod games that are not alike. The more of the innards that are the same the easier to hack to do bad things to the non pvpers. To make such different innards in one game cost money noticeable more to the developer. So if they did go with pvp those innards could be quite similar, and thus easier to hack.


Wait wait, did i actually post "uhhhh no" for you to quote, or did you just lol my post into "uhhhh no"?

If it was the latter, i dont know what I said, so i really dont know what you're talking about

Edit:

Oh, i found it.


See here is the killer about PvP. When a game is made so that one player can kill another it makes it easier for a hacker to manipulate code to kill people out side of the PvP setting. The only way to truly alienate this problem is to make a totally separate game. Yet gamers know this is not likely due to cost. So players choose to have no PvP at all.

This would be the result of terrible, terrible programming, and nothing more. Even Sega isn't that bad. If there was code to cause the hitboxes of the players to damage eachother, yet it was able to toggled to work during PvE, the developers have nobody to blame but their own dipshit, foresight-less programming.


Battle Mode and PvE modes would most likely be run in completely different code settings -- they can't be "switched between" because in the PvE setting, the PvP code simply does not exist. If this were possible otherwise, then the game probably wouldnt even need PvP in order to allow players to murder eachother. Also, there's no telling how player and enemy physics/code differ from one another, so the code for players hitting eachother could be completely different and incompatible with regular conditions anyway.


Im no programmer, but as i understand it, the servers communicate with one another by packets, which means your client is basically reading inputs from the server like inputs from a controller. You're talking things more along the lines of memory editing , which is probably not even remotely possible without physical access to the server, and even STILL im pretty sure that's completely impossible for hackers to accomplish without not only changing the server code but the client of everyone playing the game who's using the hack.






Okay, so simply put:

It's completely different than PSO's exploit of editing the health restoration of Resta to actually cause damage instead of healing. That was an exploit of code that works perfectly fine on PvE. You're talking about far more complicated things that probably dont even correlate with one another despite the fact you can barely tell when playing the game. Just to put it in vision, In PSU it would be like hackers equipping air-speeders mid-mission, or spawning Dragons in the middle of the field, or opening shops out of nowhere. It just isn't possible by normal means, unless the programming allowed it to be, which it most likely does not.




This is absolutely nothing to be paranoid about. Like i've pointed out millions of times, both PSO and PSP2 had battle modes -- neither of them have, or ever will have, hackers who can PK others. (without black beast/resta glitch)

Malachite
Dec 29, 2011, 02:12 PM
I support this post.
It's very, very odd how on point you are when it comes to being around any time anyone says loli...

Zyrusticae
Dec 29, 2011, 05:12 PM
Hey, I have to live up to expectations, y'know. ;-)

(That, and it's something to chat about that isn't game mechanics that are other speculative or may change at any point in development.)

Roger Triton
Dec 29, 2011, 05:24 PM
There should be an arena (you have to find it) where you can fight PvP. It should be something special. It should require a bit of adventuring, not something you can just enter into once the game boots up/goes online.
Like the Colosseum in Final Fantasy 6. Anyone remember that?

Angelo
Dec 29, 2011, 09:03 PM
There should be an arena (you have to find it) where you can fight PvP. It should be something special. It should require a bit of adventuring, not something you can just enter into once the game boots up/goes online.
Like the Colosseum in Final Fantasy 6. Anyone remember that?

How would that work when everything is accessible from the main lobby? That's the beauty of these games. For years I thought it was a hindrance to have a lobby system... but after playing SWTOR, DCUO, and a myriad of other MMOs I've found that finding a party and heading to your missions and organizing everyone's quests and finding vendors is just a huge pain in the ass. PSOnline's 'wham-bam-thank you ma'am' mission counter and lobbies are going to be really refreshing.

Blueblur
Dec 29, 2011, 09:46 PM
Not exactly what I was saying, but yeah.

Ah, I wrote your username but I meant Cayenne. I blame my lack of sleep. :P

magenta
Jan 2, 2012, 05:51 PM
PVP
it will only prob be ruled by cheaters of the game,.. like a certain R.E back then in his noob days and his bully gang (or guild, GEM) using exploits and illegal items (like 127 attribute weps) to "rule" pvp..

and members of that guild were also found using illegal items (though for pve) in phantasy star universe... so no doubt the trend would continue (be them or other people).

PlinderD
Jan 2, 2012, 07:55 PM
Eh, that's no different from people who spam glitches which break the game, people who spam badly designed moves that, yet again, break the game, or just overpowered characters in some sub par fighting game.

Even in games that are pretty well balanced (but only at a decent skill level) you have the lower brackets populated by people who use a character that excels at low skill level play (LOL KEN) or a tactic that owns noobs (LOL CHEESE)

The only difference is that cheaters won't get horribly beaten by pros by default, but it's not like someone who runs around using Ken and spamming Hadoukens and Shoryukens is going to encounter a pro player often.

Meaning the lower skill level PvP games/lobbies/whatever will be populated by cheaters and idiots who for some reason stay there and get owned by cheaters, and of course new players who have yet to encounter cheats, but they'll either

A. stop PvPing
B. find the group of PvPers who don't cheat

What matters is how well designed and balanced the PvP will be without cheats. Or how well players can balance the PvP without making up too many rules.

Cayenne
Jan 3, 2012, 03:07 AM
I'm going to create a PvP guild when the game is released.

What do you think, "The PvP Knights", ehh?

Angelo
Jan 3, 2012, 07:09 AM
I'm going to create a PvP guild when the game is released.

What do you think, "The PvP Knights", ehh?

I can't tell if you're joking or not.

Cayenne
Jan 3, 2012, 07:36 AM
I'm serious, but it will be a strict PvE type of guild.

NoiseHERO
Jan 3, 2012, 08:10 AM
That's an awful idea and you should feel awful.

Name them the face punchers instead and make it a non-serious PVP guild, THEN we're talking... >D

Still not joining it, but still yeah.

relentless
Jan 3, 2012, 08:41 AM
PvP themed or PvE themed guilds. Seri0z bussin€z. Just have a guild with people you can be friends with for the most part and do whatever you want to with them. PvP will hopefully be a mere additum that gives you the possibility to kill some time when you feel the need to.

Cayenne
Jan 3, 2012, 08:44 AM
That's an awful idea and you should feel awful.

Name them the face punchers instead and make it a non-serious PVP guild, THEN we're talking... >D

Still not joining it, but still yeah.

Fine, don't join because I won't let you in, it's going to be a badass non-PvP PvP guild, with Blackjack and hookers. In fact forget the guild and blackjack.

Ahh screw the whole thing...