Rated E for Everyone [Archive]

Keilyn

Nov 26, 2011, 04:48 PM

Ratings work on a "Minimal" aspect which pisses me off.

The way it works is that if a game has one scene that is Teen (or like a movie, PG-13 scene), the entire movie or production is given that teen rating. In short you play a game that is 95 - 99% PG and the rest is PG-13.

Whether people thought it was "Good" or "Horribly Bad."

When the new Conan The Barbarian movie was released and I saw it I was happy that for the first time in a long time a rated-R movie was actually a RATED-R movie. Practically every scene in that movie was a rated R scene and it wasn't some "PG-13" movie with some 2 minute rated R scene that would force the whole movie to be judged as an R rated Flick.

When I write or do anything creative, if its given some rating...I make sure its based on "maximum" rather than "minimum."

For PSU it won't make a different. Release any Mature game and watch every minor out there who likes shooters or RPGs go out and pirate, hijack or buy the game.

Titan

Nov 26, 2011, 06:39 PM

I'm guessing PSU falls into the minimal aspect. I don't remember anything that stands out apart from an E rated game. Even PSO had blood spill on the ground when killing an enemy that is now toned down in PSU. Maybe the offline cleavage enhancer. The online content is obvious with it visible panty and man ass loin cloth.

EvilMag

Nov 26, 2011, 06:48 PM

Keilyn

Nov 26, 2011, 07:08 PM

Believe me, there is a lot of games that I question why is it E rated.

Look at Majora's Mask.

Ocarina of Time had blood and was E rated (Though they changed the color to green in later versions that and removed the chanting in the Fire Temple's music.)

Its the shift from comic-relief violence and gore to focusing on the actions of life-like, digital characters that in each generation are closer to real people, and thus closer to having the same exploitation possibilities as people.

Things from Naked females, Sexual Themes...Character Intention and Attitude go father than the animated violence we see because those are the characters we play as. The characters we view the story from...

You and me know what is "right" and what is "wrong" but there is a danger in the attitude of the hero of the story. If you aren't past the age of knowing heroes aren't always the model character, a kid might think the actions, themes, and nature of the character are just and "right."

...and why shouldn't we think like that? We play the game from the point of view of that character and they allow us into that world...and we aren't just the audience, we are the player.

So the focus is much stronger on the influence a hero or villain has on the player.

There once was an April Fools Day joke where a "video game" ad was created that had a 100% naked girl running around with weapons applying to sexual themes too. In just a day since the trailer release, about every major women's rights group and activist group along were attacking it and many parents were trying to keep their kids away from the said game...News Broadcasts even had the "fake game" and it fooled many. ^_^

Selphea

Nov 26, 2011, 08:35 PM

If it was rated E all the characters would be chibi and we'd be using piko hammers with Rising Strike to beat up mobs that look like Bambi or something =x

Crysteon

Nov 26, 2011, 10:09 PM

And bosses would be actually cute! Would final boss be some kind of pedobear with red cheeks?...NO thank you, >_>

Oh, and also people would be overusing ^_^ faces all day long...wait...nvm, that happens already.

Ryno

Nov 26, 2011, 10:13 PM

i think almost like rated 18+

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/xl2YClNx/Ryno-2.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Keilyn

Nov 26, 2011, 10:46 PM

@Ryno

People are more educated outside the United States when it comes to Humanities such as Arts, Literature and Music. The reason the costume is not a "rated R" costume is because of its mythological ties and historical ties.

It comes from Mythology and it was one of the very first attempts at armoring a full figured woman (no one had really thought of it back then). Back then, a woman would exist to remain "pure" and if a woman lost that purity, she would be considered to be worthless. Mythology has stories of men attempting to destroy the purity of a woman long before killing her. Female Armor had to Address both issues...The issue of remaining pure and the issue of not dying in battle.

I won't rate it as 18+ since I know where It comes from, but I am sure thanks to the sex industry and inuendos along with the massive uneducated, it would be rated 18+ if chance would allow.

When I had written my post about that costume before, I was annoyed by those who would view it as something completely sexual and not for its actual origins.

Selphea

Nov 26, 2011, 11:41 PM

To be fair, that costume will never make it to the English version (for technical reasons rather than due to censorship) so it wouldn't have an impact on the game's rating in the West.

PrinceBrightstar

Nov 27, 2011, 03:41 AM

Believe me, there is a lot of games that I question why is it E rated.

Look at Majora's Mask.

Ocarina of Time had blood and was E rated (Though they changed the color to green in later versions that and removed the chanting in the Fire Temple's music.)

That chanting was not removed due to consumer complaints as some rumors would have you believe. Check the debug screen rom date vs that region's release date....or just check out http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-9-pop-fiction/710815

Vent

Nov 27, 2011, 05:30 AM

Ratings help things as one can get a quick impression of how violent or mature the content is without looking at anything else. For example, if you're buying a survival game with realistic graphics, but is somehow rated E, you'll probably want to raise an eyebrow and watch some actual footage of the game first. On the other end of the spectrum, a parent wanting to buy a cartoon, comes by a cartoon looking box that is labeled 'South Part' but is for some reason rated M, that parent would probably drop it in shock.

From the business' and in particular the law perspective, the ratings make it much easier to make laws for certain games as there is something to hold on to to make distinctions between games and media. The notorious manga ban in Japan is an example of that; targets works rated 18+.

If you ask me, PSU should've been rated T, at the very least. The single player story involves a lot of people dying (Moatoob people turning into SEEDs). Not to mention some suggestive camera angles during cut scenes and...well those clothes (or lack of it)!

Sinue_v2

Nov 27, 2011, 06:42 AM

The reason the costume is not a "rated R" costume is because of its mythological ties and historical ties.

Female Armor had to Address both issues...The issue of remaining pure and the issue of not dying in battle.

Do you know off hand a good link or search terms to use to pull up some info on that? I've done some casual browsing on female military figures before, and I've never really seen anything like what's in Ryno's picture. At least from the historical side, they are usually depicted as wearing the same type of armor as their male contemporaries (Boudica, Hangaku Gozen, Jean d'Arc, Amazon and Achillia), even among cultures like the Sarmatian/Scythians where they were a significant presence on the battlefield. Sometimes this has lead to mistaken identity, like the case of the Issyk Golden Man (http://www.archaeology.org/9709/abstracts/gold.html), who is most likely a warrior-priestess.

Keilyn

Dec 1, 2011, 05:51 AM

Hello Sinue.

The problem with armor deals with the fact women have multiple body types along with bust size. The typical female measurement is the measurement around the bust, around the waist and around the hip. There is a measurement also around the Ankle and up.

These measurements are used for the creation of anything a woman can wear be it Armor or Clothing. Due to different body types (banana, apple, pear and hourglass shapes being the most common) the creation of clothing becomes hard to be standardized. This also means women require more education on learning what works and what does not work on their bodies.

When it comes to female armor, if a woman could not wear a pre-existing piece of armor usually made for males, they had to had their armor custom made. This meant a woman had to prove themselves first because no one was going to take the time to make custom armor for least of all a woman, unless that person deserved it. I know I sound sexist and unfair about it, but that really is how it was.

The interesting to Google Images is that when I looked up the same names you provided I saw different images. This results in different interpretation.

You did well in attempting to look up "Female Martial Armor and Equipment" however you should look up at the Interpretation of Females through Mythology.

There are some things you can do out there to start to get a feel of what works and what does not work, as well as some fun education out there.

1) Learn about the different female body types and try to create them using PSU. You will find that clothes for characters in PSU look better on some body types and horrible on others. Same is true for character size. Some clothes look better on small girls, others look better on Large Girls. The clothes we are talking about look better on Average to Larger Girls, designed to "Stand Tall" due to back then a woman in Armor like that and expressive in mythology had to either be a high-citizen or god-like or Deity-like. They were as "loved" as they were "feared."

2) Go to the Library and hit the books. Art and Mythology is so far and wide that its a very good idea to actually read books written by scholars, specially the female scholars who set out to correct the male interpretation of the female role in mythology. Both sides make credible arguments.

The internet is ok for some things. Good for General Knowledge, but what you ask for is something that is far more specific that young people who write these web pages will come in with many biases.

I took an honors course once called "The history of Gender, War and Peace in Society" which focused on the evolution and expectation of gender. It had one of the most amazing professors I came into contact with. It analyzed history and mythology and broke up the differences between the portrayal of Gender in the Arts and Humanities vs the Actual History behind the evolution of Gender. It was a four credit course that had the students achieve as much work in one semester as one would in a year.

It doesn't make me a scholar by any means, but it was very interesting to see what we saw, what really happened and how the interpretation survived and outlived the reality of things.

One thing today....Most women do not wear the correct bra size (a study was done on this, you can google it) and most women do not know what kind of clothes work best on their body type.

Now if you are a guy, you would want to know what body type your girlfriend is. It will really help if you ever buy clothes for her as a gift. A woman that is well-dressed is not so common here.

So yes, to answer your question. I am really afraid of tossing links because I took some time to search for some and there is some information that is true, but there is a lot that is false. Sometimes you read something that is "True" but the reason explained for being "true" is actually totally wrong.

I am glad you know about the case of the Golden-Man. That one is observed a lot. Glad you read something about the Scythians.

I really love the cultures out there were men and women stand together through the majority of things, rather than the cultures which separate men and women into gender roles within times of war and expect both genders to "Do their part." Of course that is a matter of opinion, but I do believe that if one wishes to fight directly and they have the capability, that they should not be denied the chance.

PSW4L

Dec 1, 2011, 01:39 PM

I'm sorry but that is total bs dude. That is a stripper outfit, not a suit of armor. What kind of moron would think that is effective armor? You can say it's based off of some historical thing all you want but we all know it was designed by some horny no-life nerd who had too much time on his hands.

Selphea

Dec 1, 2011, 01:48 PM

Stripper?

THIS. IS. SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

xXSheWolfXx

Dec 2, 2011, 09:32 PM

Parents might press charges on pedos alot more.

RemiusTA

Dec 2, 2011, 11:51 PM

It wouldn't matter, online interation isn't rated.

This. It's impossible to judge what you'll come into contact with even if the game consists of legos bathed in gumdrops and rainbows. Human interaction makes it impossible to censor everything bad.

Hello Sinue.

<><><><><> bible <><><><><>

tl;dr.

...okay, i skimmed it. But just enough to say:

1) lol bullshit, and

2) absolutely nothing, nada, zilch in that manuscript had anything to do with that ridiculous horny otaku hentai fanservice outfit that spawned this tangent.

I mean, I always joke when talking about PSP2 and stuff, but that outfit LITERALLY has nipple garments. There is absolutely no use trying to justify it.

Trying to justify tasteless outfits with history in a game that is 1) anime 2) scifi and 3) has its own outfit designs different from those in real life isn't a good idea. Just take it for what it is, trust me there was absolutely nothing deep in the design process for most of these outfits. Especially after PSP2. Besides, games like these have traditionally been about as generic as possible when it comes to fiction, ESPECIALLY science fiction, basing things off of actual historical events. And a third "ESPECIALLY" for female outfits, which generally serve mostly as eye turners for advertisements. Except these days, Japan likes to make their "eye candy" female outfits look more like cosplay prostitution events.

Trying to say female dimensions somehow make it too complicated for armor is absolutely ridiculous -- what, i guess males are all born off assembly lines? Males have weight fluctuations and variable weight distribution just the same as females.

If you wanted to find a reason to talk about ass and titties, you could have been a bit more straightforward.

Believe me, there is a lot of games that I question why is it E rated.

Look at Majora's Mask.

Ocarina of Time had blood and was E rated (Though they changed the color to green in later versions that and removed the chanting in the Fire Temple's music.)

This 100%

Dude, Majora's Mask is one freaky, nerve-wracking ass videogame. Hell, Ocarina of Time as well -- anyone remember that "under the well" level, or that race with that freaky ass ghost guy?

I think that most of the real disturbing things about games like OoT or MM is that it only really bothers those that are old enough to really understand them. The city of re-deads or the impending impact apocalypse with the moon (complete with earthquakes and doom-ish music alterations) bothers kids, but for some reason it's much darker when you're older and play the game. A little nightmare fuel may stop you from playing the game, but in the end some of my favorite games were full of them. It's the reason i could never beat Tomb Raider on PSX all those years ago.

There are tons of games that are far more scary/freaky today than in the past. Anyone ever played Super C on the NES? High Octane Nightmare Fuel, from about stage 5 onwards.

Keilyn

Dec 3, 2011, 09:56 AM

...and trying to justify fashion without knowing anything about history, mythology and culture within the discipline itself is laughable at best. If it was truly XXX rated, it would not be included in a game for kids and early teens.

Fashion has a highly subjective opinion out there.

There was a time where if a woman put on Jeans in the United States and raised her voice at her mother or father she was viewed as a tomboy. Today, the majority of women wear jeans and its just a typical, everyday thing.

This is why talking about fashion without understanding History, Mythology along with culture is never a good idea. The subjective stuff gets mixed up and one never learns the Objective stuff behind it.

The question you should ask is "Is it really THAT much in Prostituting girls?"

When I walk across the streets of Madrid, Spain and Paris, France. Even when I am in Montreal, Quebec, and even Tokyo, Japan I find that people are actually far better dressed than people in the United States.

In fact more clothes are made for body types that fit well and Americans aren't used to seeing people properly fitted. Its amazing how almost any woman that has been properly fitted in the U.S can pass as someone said to have "Elegance."

I know female professors who dress differently in different colleges per class. They get attacked all the time and branded for showing off and other negative things. Truth is they are well dressed and fashion is a very big thing in Europe and its also a way of life to feel happy about the way one dresses.

Unlike the United States, many other nations are widely acceptable on what is worn and made.

The game is anime-based like you said, but that doesn't mean the expectation is to turn PSU as borderline to a Hentai as possible and if that costume truly was THAT CLOSE to being pornographic, SEGA would literally be fined heavily for that thanks to the reforms taking place in Japan about media content.

Sinue_v2

Dec 3, 2011, 10:47 PM

...and trying to justify fashion without knowing anything about history, mythology and culture within the discipline itself is laughable at best.

But RemiusTA is right in that what you gave was really more of a non-answer.

The problem with armor deals with the fact women have multiple body types along with bust size. The typical female measurement is the measurement around the bust, around the waist and around the hip.

And he's right in that men also have the same issue with differing body types. One that was solved with adjusting the size up and padding to make up the difference in 15th century munition armor which was mass produced. This is essentially the same method (+ binding the breasts via wrapping or a sports bra) that modern armor smiths use when fashioning plate mail for women.

With most other armor types, this wasn't an issue. Chainmail, Splintmail, Cloth, and Leather armors all offer the flexibility to make custom fitting more of a non-issue. Most female foot soldiers could simply use standard male armor, while more wealthy or distinguished women soldiers could afford the minor modifications. Jeanne D'Arc, for instance, used donated standard armor until Charles VII commissioned her own suit.

It's important to note that armor, while being designed with a male frame in mind, were designed foremost for effectiveness. The fit doesn't matter as much as it's protective capabilities, and I can't see any serious female warrior who would trade the one for the other. For example, the molded breastplates which make allowances for female breasts (http://www.truehearth.com/female_bp.jpeg) often seen in fantasy would have been a death sentience against a skilled opponent. Breastplates were designed to deflect blows away from the centerline of the body. However, by making allowances for each breast, you create a channel in which blows are directed towards the center of the chest and up directly into the throat.

To suggest that each breast be accommodated for separately, even accentuated as is the case in most fantasy armors, shows a sickening level of incompetence projected onto women that (imo) is even more degrading than sexualization.

Go to the Library and hit the books. Art and Mythology is so far and wide that its a very good idea to actually read books written by scholars, specially the female scholars who set out to correct the male interpretation of the female role in mythology. The internet is ok for some things. Good for General Knowledge, but what you ask for is something that is far more specific that young people who write these web pages will come in with many biases.

But this assumes that the books contain less bias and factual errors, which often isn't the case, as much as people would like to believe to the contrary. In fact, you just recommended a bias yourself by recommending I look up sources from female scholars who are out to correct the male interpretation. This is one area in which I am extremely leery of bad information, because of the repressed roles of women in modern society the pendulum often swings too far in the opposite direction of feminist interpretation. This has been a major problem in, say, psychology (especially pop psych) which also has been stigmatized by the concept of the Tabula Rasa.

This is also why I didn't list any famous Persian female warriors and military commanders. Most of the information was coming from Pro-Persian/Anti-Arab sites which tend to glorify their "lionesses" as a backlash to the repressive female gender roles imposed by Islam.

At any rate, you paint with far too wide of a brush using vague terms like "Mythology". Who's mythology? What era? What religion, if any? What books would you recommend I look up? I'm not asking that you go out of your way and do my research for me, but since this is a very specific topic, a point in the right direction would be nice. It's like recommending someone read up on genetic drift and ring species, but only telling them to look up books on biology.

My best guess, off hand, would be that that armor might be loosely inspired by some of the scenes and iconography of the ancient indo-aryan cultures... possibly from the Jainist or Vedic tradition, but I'm not really familiar enough with them to say.

Tawon

Dec 4, 2011, 01:47 AM

woah this is getting heated.

Grabbing popcorn

Crysteon

Dec 4, 2011, 03:04 AM

Heated? Like..."blahblahblah^_^'s" turning into "blahblahblahÒ_Ó's" ?

Posting a bible about something that can be summarized in 3-4 lines is starting to get old, reason for which I'm starting to care less and less about how people start slashing against each other with knives about something so trivial.

RemiusTA

Dec 4, 2011, 04:45 AM

>: D

/conversation. Thank you Sinue.

...and trying to justify fashion without knowing anything about history, mythology and culture within the discipline itself is laughable at best. If it was truly XXX rated, it would not be included in a game for kids and early teens.

Fashion has a highly subjective opinion out there.

There was a time where if a woman put on Jeans in the United States and raised her voice at her mother or father she was viewed as a tomboy. Today, the majority of women wear jeans and its just a typical, everyday thing.

This is why talking about fashion without understanding History, Mythology along with culture is never a good idea. The subjective stuff gets mixed up and one never learns the Objective stuff behind it.

The question you should ask is "Is it really THAT much in Prostituting girls?"

When I walk across the streets of Madrid, Spain and Paris, France. Even when I am in Montreal, Quebec, and even Tokyo, Japan I find that people are actually far better dressed than people in the United States.

In fact more clothes are made for body types that fit well and Americans aren't used to seeing people properly fitted. Its amazing how almost any woman that has been properly fitted in the U.S can pass as someone said to have "Elegance."

I know female professors who dress differently in different colleges per class. They get attacked all the time and branded for showing off and other negative things. Truth is they are well dressed and fashion is a very big thing in Europe and its also a way of life to feel happy about the way one dresses.

Unlike the United States, many other nations are widely acceptable on what is worn and made.

The game is anime-based like you said, but that doesn't mean the expectation is to turn PSU as borderline to a Hentai as possible and if that costume truly was THAT CLOSE to being pornographic, SEGA would literally be fined heavily for that thanks to the reforms taking place in Japan about media content.

Man im so glad Sinue took care of this i dont even-

Look:

1) OKAY, WE GET IT, YOU HATE AMERICA. Alright already. You can stop insulting our intelligence, fashion sense and moral problems. Sorry that we are just the scum of the fucking universe and need to broaden our narrow-minded horizons and learn to be more culturally accepting and dress better. You know, like the Japanese. Who dress almost exactly like us. And make nipple garment outfits for their videogames. Also, Gaijin.

2) You're a bit too philosophical and you're seriously overthinking this way too much, not to mention all this crap you're talking about...has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Someone points out an obviously disgusting outfit, and you start talking about America, Madrid, mythology and bra measurements? What?

Okay look, im glad you're in school and all, and im sure you love those classes you're taking right now and all, and you're happy that you're learning stuff, but we don't care. Especially since it has so very little to do with this game and its outfits, which...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/xl2YClNx/Ryno-2.jpg[SPOILER-BOX]
http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/psp2i-beast-female.jpg
http://phantasystarlegacy.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/o0600040010777461380.jpg?w=600&h=400
http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/to-love-ru.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/urikobb3/ShioriRanpegi_02.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7144/r1esnc.jpg

[/SPOILER-BOX]

...oh, i think we're done here.

[SPOILER-BOX]
I actually dig the swimsuit set though. It's a swimsuit, you're supposed to be showing skin. But uh, the rest of that stuff, masquerading as full outfits? Garbage to me.

[SPOILER-BOX]
LOOK AT THE BELLY RING.[SPOILER-BOX] LOOK AT IT[/SPOILER-BOX][/SPOILER-BOX][/SPOILER-BOX]

Resanoca

Dec 4, 2011, 06:14 AM

South Park, Bono, tries to be #1 at everything... will always be a #2. I'm seeing a pattern here.

Keilyn

Dec 4, 2011, 10:17 AM

@Sinue.

I did say "look up sources from female scholars" and I thought you were smart enough to know about .EDU sites and what acquiring one and even posting information on one requires. I had assumed that you knew if you were a doctorate holder of any kind you would go through the .EDU process and verification.

That is Strike 1.

I was speaking of the birth of armor.

Your example with Jeanne D'Arc along with Armors deal with "Renaissance" history.

Renaissance means "Rebirth" and it was a period in European History where civilization returned to Greek and Roman Classical Art Roots.

My argument was about the "Birth" of female armor and you tried to counter it with the "Rebirth" of armor, and you have the audacity to comment to me about incompetence.

This is Strike 2

Strike 3 comes from the fact that you could not stick to the actual time period we were discussing and you went all over the place. You are capable of making very solid arguments, but when they fall outside of the context of the root of discussion it makes you out to look worse.

Its like if I started a thread about Pistols and Revolvers and your counter-argument was about the inner workings of a laser rifle.

My girlfriend and I spent time talking about this issue since she has two art degrees. We made references to how Americans spun sexuality around cartoons at one point too.

Disney Princess anyone? How about Jessica Rabbit, Cat Woman, Poison Ivy and Wonder Woman? Look at all the Betty Boop Fans as well as all the Smurfette Jokes (sorry for the spelling) and how about the X-men girls?

The one thing we did conclude is that while so much sexuality does exist, one can't prove the design of a costume is intended to be 100% purely sexual. Given all of these costumes and characters in existence, sexuality really points elsewhere....

If you want a mature discussion of sexuality I am open for it.

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 4, 2011, 12:07 PM

What fuck happened here?!?!

Keilyn

Dec 4, 2011, 12:20 PM

Don't worry. :) I'm done in this thread.

I recently realized people here do not know the difference between the Classical Era and Renaissance Era, so a discussion of Origins is a failure here. ^_^

btw. I've always liked your Sig Cloud. Did you make it yourself or did a friend make it for you?

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 4, 2011, 01:03 PM

Uh i searched around the internet for it as im a big tales fan and Judith just happens to be one of my fave females in the tales series.
(Its her cut in for her hi-oughi/Mystic art)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PW3AC9ltKc

Keilyn

Dec 4, 2011, 02:07 PM

That's actually really cool.

The only thing to Vesperia is that it reminds me so much of Valkyrie Profile in terms of Lenneth's Nibelung Valesti.

Crysteon

Dec 4, 2011, 02:15 PM

Actually, her second Mystic Arte looks more like Nibelung Valesti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zy8LUZ1kzM

Keilyn

Dec 4, 2011, 02:27 PM

Those first seconds look more like playing Phantasy Star Universe and swing around doublesabers for some strange reason.

I mean the entire approach of "girl gets antsy and releases crazy attack" bit...though she doesn't sound remotely close to the Dominatrix personality Lenneth gets in Battle.

Crysteon

Dec 4, 2011, 02:36 PM

I thought Freya was the dominatrix there, showing hatred against humans and treating all of her subordinates like crap (Lenneth and Hrist included), while being Odin's bitch at the same time. The best reference for that is in Valkyrie Profile 2's storyline.

Keilyn

Dec 4, 2011, 04:46 PM

Oh yeah. I meant the idea that in Battle she becomes more dominating and assertive. Freya naturally throws the Dominatrix personality. My girlfriend attempted a Freya cosplay because she had the body and the costume is a lot easier than cosplaying Lenneth. Lenneth is one of the toughest to design and cosplay.

It was one of the RPGs I related more to female characters than male characters. The only annoying thing I found in Valkyrie Profile was in the fact each chapter you got at random a Cave of Oblivion at any difficulty level. You could run Chapter 1 and get Cave of Oblivion #8 and get screwed in the first battle.

I have my own rules to cosplaying and costuming, but I like cosplaying in pairs. Usually I take on a role similar to the ones Ive served in the real world or am closer to in my personality. I tend to not feel like its all an act simply because the roles are too familiar to me. Does that make sense?

Sinue_v2

Dec 5, 2011, 12:47 AM

That is Strike 1.

I do understand the weight that a .edu sight carries, but you completely missed my point. You're making arguments from authority.

Besides, by filtering only .edu sites, that also ignores many other resources with good information. For example, the Open CourseWare programs on YouTube, peer review journals which are often .coms and .orgs, as well as sites like the National Center for Science Education (directed by Eugenie Scott, whom is awesome and a complete sweetheart) which is a .com. Not to mention Google Books or Project Gutenberg.

This is Strike 2

First off, the "rebirth" of the Renaissance has no significant bearing on the design or manufacture of armor. It refers to the rediscovery of classical antiquity after the crusades... art, culture, literature, science... that is what lead us to the subsequent "Enlightenment", not a rediscovery of armor. Armor is actually one of the many cases in which advancements actually proceeded unimpeded by the middle (dark) ages.

I was speaking of the birth of armor.

Could have fooled me, as you've spent most of your time here speaking on American ignorance and modern fashion trends.

Strike 3 comes from the fact that you could not stick to the actual time period we were discussing and you went all over the place.

You never gave a time period, or a culture. I initiated this conversation asking for a resource by which I could verify your claim that Ryno's character's armor had historical or mythological underpinnings, and you've only ever returned with vagueries and off-topic responses. How am I supposed to counter or confirm any claim when I don't have the details? It's like arguing with a creationist who insists on animals being created after their "kind", but never defining what a "kind" even is and then immediately shifting the goalpost.

From my posts:

Do you know off hand a good link or search terms to use to pull up some info on that?

At any rate, you paint with far too wide of a brush using vague terms like "Mythology". Who's mythology? What era? What religion, if any? What books would you recommend I look up?

My best guess, off hand, would be that that armor might be loosely inspired by some of the scenes and iconography of the ancient indo-aryan cultures... possibly from the Jainist or Vedic tradition, but I'm not really familiar enough with them to say.

Indo-Aryan culture begins to split and distinguish itself around 1,800 BCE, stemming from (perhaps) the Andronovo cultures which existed roughly 20kya. The Vedas originated from the Samhitas roughly 1,500 BCE, and Bhagavad Gītā originating somewhere between the 5th century BCE to the first century CE.

And that was just a shot in the dark at the time frame you're referring to, and a culture I'm not familiar with, since you won't specify. Laser pistols and Revolvers? Don't play it off like that, because you know I was aiming for a similar time period and those other examples were largely from ancillary or reinforcing points to a (far too) generalized topic.

Ilikelamp7

Dec 5, 2011, 04:32 AM

There is no fucking way that piece of clothing wasn't meant to be sexual. Is this really what the argument is about?

Keilyn

Dec 5, 2011, 04:53 AM

@Sinue

If you truly believe that there were no advances between how Armor was manufactured/created between 1400 - 1600 AD and how Armor was created in 800 BC - 600 AD, then I desire to no longer spend time on this topic.

@Lamp7

Yes, and I am sure the Statue of David as well as Venus de Milo were designed with the mind of being as sexual as possible.

My girlfriend and I spent time talking about this issue since she has two art degrees. We made references to how those filthy fatass stupid immoral tasteless lazy uncultured ignorant AMERICANS spun sexuality around cartoons at one point too.

RamiusTA, I will report your post to the moderators. I expect an apology for your actions.

Resanoca

Dec 5, 2011, 05:45 AM

RamiusTA, I will report your post to the moderators. I expect an apology for your actions.
Oh my god. Run Remius, ruuuuuuuun. He gon' get you. xD...

Sinue_v2

Dec 5, 2011, 05:49 AM

There is no fucking way that piece of clothing wasn't meant to be sexual. Is this really what the argument is about?

Apparently, which is kind of asinine considering the actual "armor" of PSU are invisible sheild-weaves while the clothing is just... decoration. I'm not as concerned about the sexualization of the outfits. I just want to know if the claim that it has any historical/mythological roots is valid.

If you truly believe that there were no advances between how Armor was manufactured/created between 1400 - 1600 AD and how Armor was created in 800 BC - 600 AD, then I desire to no longer spend time on this topic.

I never said that, and in fact, expressed exactly the opposite proposition.

Armor is actually one of the many cases in which advancements actually proceeded unimpeded by the middle (dark) ages.

And you still haven't answered my original request.

redroses

Dec 5, 2011, 06:25 AM

Yes, and I am sure the Statue of David as well as Venus de Milo were designed with the mind of being as sexual as possible.

I'm sorry for interrupting here, but how can you compare something like the statue of david to a disgusting degrading outfit from PSU?

Also, you said that armors for females are harder to make because of their body types etc. But wouldn't an armor that leaves the breast exposed without any support be the worst solution possible? Especially considering that in reality breast do not float that way and the weight of the breasts while fighting would be such a hinderness.

Sinue_v2

Dec 5, 2011, 07:03 AM

Yes, and I am sure the Statue of David as well as Venus de Milo were designed with the mind of being as sexual as possible.

Probably not, but as a fun fact, the scenes of The Last Judgement Michelangelo painted in the Sistine Chapel originally contained nudes as a sort of "revenge" for his tortuous commission. After he died, the Council of Trent decreed nudes in religious depictions as obscene and had them covered over.

Essentially, Michelangelo got his revenge by filling the altar wall in the very focal nexus of the Christian world completely full of cocks.

Alex305!

Dec 5, 2011, 09:46 AM

i think almost like rated 18+

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/xl2YClNx/Ryno-2.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

This thread was gold! It was funny seeing people argue about a piece of clothing. Especially when one actually said this is actually used in battle and had historical background.

RemiusTA

Dec 5, 2011, 03:38 PM

RamiusTA, I will report your post to the moderators. I expect an apology for your actions.

[SPOILER-BOX]
Oh my god. Run Remius, ruuuuuuuun. He gon' get you. xD...
http://www.pendejaditas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Meme21.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Phu-leease. I should report YOU for badmouthing my country with ridiculous stereotypes, getting my awesome posts deleted and perpetuating such a retarded argument.

Swirlynipple.jpg has defeated your argument at every turn. Just give up; no amount of completely irrelevant and inaccurate history lessons can save you. Take off your 'educated'id-more-than-thou' avaitors already.

Not to mention, you insult our intelligence, and report me once i start trollin and Sinoue starts correcting you? Come on now.

Resanoca

Dec 5, 2011, 05:37 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Keilyn thinks he's the Bono from South Park. Tries to be #1 at everything, but will always be a #2. That should honestly explain everything.

Selphea

Dec 5, 2011, 06:01 PM

It's a historically correct throwback!

...to 1970s comics like Red Sonja and Vampirella, that is =x

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if it was ceremonial armor in the Greek era or something

RemiusTA

Dec 5, 2011, 06:54 PM

I hate ragging on people, but he was asking for it.

Lets change the subject.

Ark22

Dec 5, 2011, 07:32 PM

I don't know what's going up but..Hey I am Ark, I never posted in this part....So uh....I see some major stuff going down =).

Seems like Remius

*puts on shades*

Took Advantage of things

YYEEAAAHHHH.

Selphea

Dec 5, 2011, 09:48 PM

Lets change the subject.

Forces are the worst class in PSU. Discuss.

MaggotSai

Dec 5, 2011, 10:34 PM

Forces are the worst class in PSU. Discuss.

What?! No way!:-(

Halcyote

Dec 5, 2011, 11:03 PM

Forces are the worst class in PSU. Discuss.
There's no need to discuss that at all. It's fact.

New subject, por favor.

RemiusTA

Dec 6, 2011, 04:23 AM

Forces are the worst class in PSU. Discuss.

Haha, im sure i've bashed forces into the ground enough around here.

Besides, everytime i complain about forces it makes me want to bash the whole game

We can talk about how PSU360 is a waste of a subscription

Keilyn

Dec 6, 2011, 05:09 AM

Biased, One-Sided Arguments are Rated E for Everyone! ^_^

Selphea

Dec 6, 2011, 05:10 AM

Haha, im sure i've bashed forces into the ground enough around here.

Besides, everytime i complain about forces it makes me want to bash the whole game

We can talk about how PSU360 is a waste of a subscription

Maybe, but you never did come up with a decent counter-argument when your premise was contested 8-)

Caerik

Dec 6, 2011, 09:46 AM

How about the new subject be the beginning subject of the thread? Or Puppies. I like those.

TheAstarion

Dec 6, 2011, 11:57 AM

Forces are the worst class in PSU. Discuss.

I'd say Rangers are the worst classes.

Forces get level 20 attack and defensive techs. Concentrate on one, like Diga or Foie, and you might have it ready to pass the level 21 mark as soon as you hit advanced.

Rangers are too varied; all bullets except cards take too long to level, and all the good classes that use Ranger to unlock don't use most of the guns you spent time levelling. No rifle for Protranser. No machinegun for Acrofighter. No shotgun for Acrotecher. Not even a grenade for Gunmaster, taking it a step further.

As for the advanced classes themselves, Gunner-type classes have been losing ground to Techer-type classes of the same rank ever since Limit Break was introduced. And then they lost their edge to Fighter-type classes when attacking PAs got their ridiculous buffs. On the same character, a couple of years ago, you expected a higher level bullet to outperform a lower level striking move. A lv21 Correct-element grenade was doing about 1/3 the damage of a level 20 Tornado Break on a neutral-element sword. This was on a Protranser, with more ATP than most gunners, and less ATP than every other sword user. Go figure.

Halcyote

Dec 6, 2011, 05:30 PM

... Why would an acrotecher need a shotgun?

TheAstarion

Dec 7, 2011, 04:44 AM

... Why would an acrotecher need a shotgun?

They don't. I'm just being a butt. Their prerequisite class uses one, so some insane trolls will assume they should get one.

RemiusTA

Dec 7, 2011, 02:16 PM

Maybe, but you never did come up with a decent counter-argument when your premise was contested 8-)

Who contested my argument? Was it someone who started talking about Masterforce and GAS?

My counter-argument was, and always has been, 'You can't call a class good just because it's good endgame'. GAS requires you to play specific missions, and acquire a type of experience that can only be gotten at higher levels/the level cap, correct? Just because a masterforce is good with top-tier equipment, level 50 technics, and endgame boosts doesn't make up for the fact that 130 levels prior they were dogshit. My force on PS2/PC had most of her spells in the 36/41 range the moment Fortetecher obtained them. Technics suck so bad on Phantasy Star Universe that you are rarely ever leveling them up for the damage (it barely increases anyway), you're leveling up because their lv1-20 forms are absolutely useless. Have you ever used a Lv 10/11 Ra spell? Gi spell? Dam spell? They will get you killed.

I quit around the time Masterforce was released anyway. I never got to experience forces being anything other than a literal chore and an infinite race for the Psycho Wand board. Hunters are OP the moment they get their hands on the current OP photon art, which takes little time at all. Rangers may not always hit the hardest but to the retarded AI in this game they might as well be invincible, not to mention lv40-50 bullets were brokesauce and they have tons of weapons that hit multiple targets and multiple times.

Forces are cripples until they get a pallete of decent S-rank rods to combat their shitty technic binding system, Har/Quick to combat their suicidal casting speed, Masterforce to combat their shitty damage and still suicidal casting speed, and GAS to give them the ability to actually make a difference against bosses, as NONE of their technics hit twice or target multiple weakpoints save for Nosdiga. None of them knockdown save for Diga.

So, they suck. They could have improved force tenfold by deleting the other 5 elements, taking the elemental damage off the Earth spells, and giving them a slight boost, because they are they only useful technic class in the game.

shiink

Dec 12, 2011, 10:49 PM

I hate to be THAT guy that brings things back, but I feel as though I may have stumbled upon something. Modern stylization obviously tends to put things in a more sexually progressive manner especially in American media. I mean look at the evolution of Wonder Woman for instance. This is nothing new however, I sat through an art history class where cave paintings clearly had penises displayed on these stick-like figures. I wish I could ask my old professor for a digital copy of that slide. Or even the fertility amulet "Venus of Willendorf" (you can Google that one). Take the bronze David by Donatello for another example.

To cut to the chase I think there may be some validity that the Luna Prophecy may have some mythological background. Keeping that modern stylization has played a role in its creation I would like to posit this. Looking at this picture here. One may find a wee bit of a resemblance to the Valkyries of Norse mythology. Though not as skimpy, these armoured girls have been an icon for many years. Since I have musical background myself I will use Wagner's opera "Die Walküre" which is part of the four opera cycle, " Der Ring des Nibelungen" as one of these instances. Here I have provided a piece of artwork by German artist Emil Doepler, "Walkyrien" from 1905.

i think almost like rated 18+

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/xl2YClNx/Ryno-2.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Walkyrien_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg/312px-Walkyrien_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

I think it has something to do with the wings.
Let the fighting begin! Or peace whichever comes first.

RemiusTA

Dec 13, 2011, 11:13 AM

I see where you're coming from.

But honestly, there is no plausible way to justify that outfit. None.

There are a PLETHORA of ways to make breasts and skin look attractive without going to ridiculous extremes like that. Just look at it. PSU characters are realistically proportioned. Anyone in real life wearing that outfit would look ridiculous.

Hell, that outfit is even too tasteless for porn. I'd much rather her to not wear anything if she's gonna wear that.

redroses

Dec 13, 2011, 01:39 PM

The Luna Prophecy has the idea of female armor as background idea, and that is all. There is no piece of female armor in history that comes close. Even the Valkyries you posted look nothing like the outfit, there is no resemblance between the two.

Now, if we used this image as a slutty Luna prophecy outfit:
[spoiler-box]
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs50/f/2009/290/9/d/Valkyrie_by_GENZOMAN.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

We can clearly see what inspired it, and how it was made more "sexy".

But for me, the luna prophecy is nothing more then a sad excuse to see how slutty and cheap you can make an outfit.

RemiusTA

Dec 13, 2011, 01:44 PM

That outfit would have been infinitely better than the slut prophecy piece.

It still has a functional look, despite the completely exposed torso. But none of this ever matters in fiction anyway. The point is, that woman still looks like one bad bitch on the battlefield.

I honestly don't know what they were thinking though, allowing the LP outfit to make it to the modelers. I just don't know.

shiink

Dec 13, 2011, 04:32 PM

But honestly, there is no plausible way to justify that outfit. None.

My only intent was attempt to show you where it may have come from and supporting that it may have actually had a mythological origin. Both outfits have some wing like feature. I was trying to find a plausible historically acurate depiction of a valkyrie. It took no time to find some toony slutty modern take on the idea. My only intent was to try to present an idea of where the LP could have come from not to justify it as a functional piece of equipment. I mean its not rocket science to know that outfit is not meant to actually defend against anything. It is a fantasy game after all. Nor was I trying to validate it being in a game that young people should be allowed to play. We all know that any 11 yr old boy would spend hours fapping to that costume.

Alex305!

Dec 13, 2011, 06:08 PM

Who contested my argument? Was it someone who started talking about Masterforce and GAS?

My counter-argument was, and always has been, 'You can't call a class good just because it's good endgame'. GAS requires you to play specific missions, and acquire a type of experience that can only be gotten at higher levels/the level cap, correct? Just because a masterforce is good with top-tier equipment, level 50 technics, and endgame boosts doesn't make up for the fact that 130 levels prior they were dogshit. My force on PS2/PC had most of her spells in the 36/41 range the moment Fortetecher obtained them. Technics suck so bad on Phantasy Star Universe that you are rarely ever leveling them up for the damage (it barely increases anyway), you're leveling up because their lv1-20 forms are absolutely useless. Have you ever used a Lv 10/11 Ra spell? Gi spell? Dam spell? They will get you killed.

I quit around the time Masterforce was released anyway. I never got to experience forces being anything other than a literal chore and an infinite race for the Psycho Wand board. Hunters are OP the moment they get their hands on the current OP photon art, which takes little time at all. Rangers may not always hit the hardest but to the retarded AI in this game they might as well be invincible, not to mention lv40-50 bullets were brokesauce and they have tons of weapons that hit multiple targets and multiple times.

Forces are cripples until they get a pallete of decent S-rank rods to combat their shitty technic binding system, Har/Quick to combat their suicidal casting speed, Masterforce to combat their shitty damage and still suicidal casting speed, and GAS to give them the ability to actually make a difference against bosses, as NONE of their technics hit twice or target multiple weakpoints save for Nosdiga. None of them knockdown save for Diga.

So, they suck. They could have improved force tenfold by deleting the other 5 elements, taking the elemental damage off the Earth spells, and giving them a slight boost, because they are they only useful technic class in the game.

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Who's fucking idea was it to give lvl 1-10 technics their range? Did they even playtest the force class? You have to literally stop leveling and boost your skills to 21 so you can at least hit something. The only reason I'm playing techer now is because its the last class I haven't played (I played the sub techers though which are infinitely better until 180/GAS) and I play on jp-psu free so lvling a techer or gunner where PA matters more than your weapon it seemed like a good choice. Imagine playing with a full party with hunters and gunners knocking around enemies and you are trying to hit with a lvl 1-10 ra tech...Its impossible. Now i'm spamming scarred planet or sakura blast trying to get all important techs to 21.

Sinue_v2

Dec 14, 2011, 03:06 AM

My only intent was attempt to show you where it may have come from and supporting that it may have actually had a mythological origin.

And it may well have, which is why I was requesting information on it. Mythology is not really my strong suit and as such, why I focused more on the historical end of the matter where the claim is clearly not supported by the evidence.

From what I know of mythology, war/victory goddesses were typically not depicted in full (or even partial) armor. Some were, yes... but even then, they were token pieces to represent their sphere of influence. Athena's helmet and shield being a good example. Otherwise, she's either depicted nude or in robes. But gods and goddesses back then were usually (and in most cultures) seen as abstract representations of a larger reality... and anthropomorphized as a means of offering a human connection to that mystery. Myths aren't taken to BE reality, nor are they necessarily fictions or parables. They were representations of a reality beyond our perception, and an explanation for why the world was the way it was. The personal, literal and interventional, gods that we're used to in the western world were not typical of ancient cultures. Having a goddess in armor makes no real sense.

So yes, I agree there may well be a mythological basis... but none that I've ever come across that might fit the bill.

I was trying to find a plausible historically acurate depiction of a valkyrie.

I know where you're coming from, and I considered the Valkyrie as well. I didn't see a close enough similarity in design to conclude that they were where the inspiration for that costume either. The picture you linked was actually drawn in the 19th or 20th century. This doesn't mean that Sega couldn't have drawn their inspiration for the costume from a more modern (even fantasy) interpretation of a mythological figure... but that would contradicts the claim that it has any historical precedence in the interpretation and depiction thereof.

RemiusTA

Dec 14, 2011, 03:18 PM

I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Who's fucking idea was it to give lvl 1-10 technics their range? Did they even playtest the force class? You have to literally stop leveling and boost your skills to 21 so you can at least hit something. The only reason I'm playing techer now is because its the last class I haven't played (I played the sub techers though which are infinitely better until 180/GAS) and I play on jp-psu free so lvling a techer or gunner where PA matters more than your weapon it seemed like a good choice. Imagine playing with a full party with hunters and gunners knocking around enemies and you are trying to hit with a lvl 1-10 ra tech...Its impossible. Now i'm spamming scarred planet or sakura blast trying to get all important techs to 21.

Fun fact -- i believe when AotI came out, the dipshits actually nerfed the range of the Gi spells. For instance, lv 21 Gifoie used to be the range of lv11 Gifoie, and on downwards. It's really no surprise that they are completely useless as a technic type outside of them all being in the 41 range. And even then.

Yeah, maining a Force takes everything flawed about PSU and throws it in your face, from the terrible element system, to PA binding, to terrible balancing of the technic properties, and even the controls. There was ZERO EDGE gained to playing force in this game, unless you were fighting enemies with asinine AI who would simply run dead into your attacks. None of the technics had knockdown or significant stagger, crowd control technics actually had target limits on them (3 targets for Rafoie? are you serious?) yet NONE of them had the ability to target multiple weakpoints. And all the while fucking rangers and hunters are walking around with sabers and shotguns doing significantly more damage than you.

All those pretty effects that blind your party aren't good for anything but, well blinding your party. Like i said, the moment you encounter a Go Vahara above your level, you can kiss having fun as a force goodbye. There is absolutely no way to combat them without a spell like Nosdiga or something to stop them from jumping through your bitch technics and taking all your life.

Even if i were to rejoin PSU, I'd never touch my force again. 50% of my playtime was dedicated to simply making my force practical in combat. I don't believe in shitty MMORPGs that make you suck just because you'll be OP after 200 hours of gameplay.

Alex305!

Dec 14, 2011, 04:47 PM

Fun fact -- i believe when AotI came out, the dipshits actually nerfed the range of the Gi spells. For instance, lv 21 Gifoie used to be the range of lv11 Gifoie, and on downwards. It's really no surprise that they are completely useless as a technic type outside of them all being in the 41 range. And even then.

Yeah, maining a Force takes everything flawed about PSU and throws it in your face, from the terrible element system, to PA binding, to terrible balancing of the technic properties, and even the controls. There was ZERO EDGE gained to playing force in this game, unless you were fighting enemies with asinine AI who would simply run dead into your attacks. None of the technics had knockdown or significant stagger, crowd control technics actually had target limits on them (3 targets for Rafoie? are you serious?) yet NONE of them had the ability to target multiple weakpoints. And all the while fucking rangers and hunters are walking around with sabers and shotguns doing significantly more damage than you.

All those pretty effects that blind your party aren't good for anything but, well blinding your party. [Like i said, the moment you encounter a Go Vahara above your level, you can kiss having fun as a force goodbye.] There is absolutely no way to combat them without a spell like Nosdiga or something to stop them from jumping through your bitch technics and taking all your life.

Even if i were to rejoin PSU, I'd never touch my force again. 50% of my playtime was dedicated to simply making my force practical in combat. I don't believe in shitty MMORPGs that make you suck just because you'll be OP after 200 hours of gameplay.

Yeah those flaws are hitting me hard....Its so hard to aim these techs. Also I though I was one of the few who believed the forces natural enemy to be the Go Vahara. :disapprove:

I wonder how they could balance hitting multiple targets for forces....

Midori Oku

Dec 20, 2011, 05:10 PM

LMFAO!

Masterforce takes a shit on Go Vahra.

Keilyn

Dec 20, 2011, 05:35 PM

Don't underestimate Forces.

There are Attack Forces like MFs and Defensive Forces like Acrotechers.

The thing about spellcasters is that while you can Solo with them, their intention is to serve a party role and while in parties they truly shine and they weaken, meltdown or demolish enemies to allow melee classes to have to only resort to one combo to decimate their enemies.

Then comes Acrotechers and Wartechers....

Acrotechers really are a blessing in S4, specially when players deal with the situation of enemies of opposite elements appearing quickly. The combination of Giresta + Buffs with Jellen on an enemy prevents that enemy from one-shotting players who haven't had time to change armor by macro or manual mode. Combine that with the SA techs and traps and you have something special.

Wartechers and their Gi-Tech limit breaks do tons of damage on bosses and serve as great cleanup PAs too when using Fighting PAs. I've been doing WT for a long time and I still use the Limit Breaks as Clean Up PAs and Boss Killers at times.

Everyone out there appreciates a good resta being thrown into a mix or a nice debuff like Zoldeel. People hate seeing zeros pop up and not everyone has Feril Chronos or Red Knight.

Take a Komazli Rod and your techs if you want to help a party out and hand out Freeze SEs and that really helps keep enemies in place.

I hate it how players only talk about the damage on offensive techs and slam down techers, but used correctly techers are a force to be reckoned with and unlike a lot of Melee classes where each other's PAs can get in their way due to all the blowbacks out there, Techs really blend in.

Sure, people can talk of the units and items added in to help techers or even version 1, but that is really meaningless now. What matters is what exists now, and what can be used now.

Just remember that techs are fragile. All you have to do is increase damage by a short amount and that changes everything under techs. A simple increase of 10% is enough to make them overpowered when stacked with Rutsu and that new Rod.

I've spent most of my time in PSU dealing with Wartechers, Masterforces and Acrotechers. Its amazing how one can help a party with the tech PAs.

I will agree with a friend that there are some redundancies in techs though, but I still like the offerings.