Specialists ^_^ [Archive]

RemiusTA

Dec 22, 2011, 03:34 AM

When all the arguments fall and everything subsides, two kind of players exist at the very end of the day. General Players (outer) and Specialist (Inner) players.

General players learn about different classes and types and while they have one or two they like playing, they are more content with simply playing a game and seeing everything. There is nothing wrong with that ever....In fact they are the ones who are more neutral, tend to be better administrators and turn out to be great modders.

Of course this thread is about Specialists.

Specialists tend to specialize in one-class or one category against the others. When trained they tend to become the best tournament players and are more team oriented. When trained they tend to give me the best information about their own class and those who directly oppose them. In fact they make some of the best mappers around too...

What I want to know is how many of you "feel" or "know" that you have learned towards one central type and which one? Also, do you feel you have a specialization in playing under that type?

My central type for me hands down is Wartecher. Secondary I run as AT or MF. However my heart is in Wartecher.

I would like to compile a list of specialists here on all levels. I am not asking for "Eliteness" in "Specialization" but for those who know they are committed to a central type of their choice.

~Keilyn

You know this is the first post ive seen from you in a while where i wasn't tempted to kick my monitor. But i find it hilarious the reaction the rest of the crowd is giving you.

To keep this short...Phantasy Star just isn't that kind of game series. The most effective strategy for any class is simply to pick the most damaging ability paired with the weapon that boosts its use the greatest. Time Attack is more about knowing spawns and using abilities that boost your maneuvering speed (totally unintended by the staff, mind you.) so you can finish the stage quicker. Being "advanced" at this game is more of an indication of how long you play, not how skilled you are at your class, which in all honesty doesn't take much brain power in the slightest.

I think the only real indication of skill in this game series in the past has been Challenge Mode in PSO, mainly because although it had set spawns, the item drops were still random. Of course, even this was able to be ran through with the gift of a little bit of hindsight (but that's cheating). But regardless, it was a mode that encouraged you to think, sacrifice and coordinate.

But Phantasy Star Universe? Lol no. Weapons have been taken COMPLETELY out of situational use and thrown completely into a tier of targets and damage multipliers. When the devs nerf a skill, instead of using another one on the same weapon, people start hunting the weapon class with the best substitute; there is no real skill to this game. Well, aside from learning how to attack and navigate the menu quickly at the same time.

There's no reason to not ask people to be elitists. Anyone who claims to be an "elitist" at this game is, no offense, a fucking moron.

Midori Oku

Dec 22, 2011, 03:37 AM

Eh...my first reaction to this was:

[spoiler-box]http://d.imagehost.org/0355/Poker_Face.png
Poker face, dood....[/spoiler-box]

The only thing I know is that I only use AF as a main type because I like it since I joined JP, and also I acknowledge its strenghts and weaknesses....I ignore if that makes me a "specialist ^_^", because I also know some about the other types in game.

This^

But I play as MF.

Keilyn

Dec 22, 2011, 04:36 AM

RemiusTA

Dec 22, 2011, 04:38 AM

bloodflowers

Dec 24, 2011, 07:56 PM

All im saying is that, it really doesn't go any deeper than that. You just have a prefered class for your playstyle. I dont think you can really specialize in anything in this game.

Like i said, your effectiveness at your class stems from your stats, which is proportional to the amount of time you use it.

The 'no skill in PSU posts' have always been short sighted, and wrong.

You certainly can specialise in a class in this game, and there is an enourmous gap between someone who specialises in a class, and someone who just plays it from time to time. A large part of it is definitely learning what to use and when, based on maps and spawns (good luck if you think you can memorise them all, because I can't), but quality of execution matters too.

Keilyn

Dec 24, 2011, 08:26 PM

I was going to say this but I wanted someone else to say this.....because if i said the same thing I would be defined as pretentious.

There is a major difference between a beginner in a class and an expert in a class and I see this everyday. Masterforce is an example of this. Beginners are going to die a lot not used to the low HP while top MFs are going to annihilate a map and it won't be easy to see one die.

The S4 mission yesterday I went through 11 - 12 runs and I think I only scaped once in the entire party, compared to the player who died six times in the same map due to megid or opposite armor hits.

bloodflowers

Dec 24, 2011, 09:19 PM

I should have added - I specialised in Acrotecher. The shoes fit so I wore them.

I was a Fortegunner (a pretty good one at that) to begin with. I was never able to comfortably make the switch to Gunmaster due to the loss of melee which was a big part of my FG gameplan - I just can't find the speed in the GM class that others do and feel like a fish out of water with it.

At the same time I had a caseal Fortetecher. I created her for the lulz, there was a lot of drama back then with Fortetechers shouting "Forces not nurses!!" in the lobby, and even trying to group together and actually go on strike - such was their resentment towards being considered support characters. So I went away and thought "fine, I'll give people what they want", and created a CAST nurse, who would always buff and heal - doing the job many of them didn't want to. She was quite the success and drew as many compliments as "wtf cast techer" comments. My favourite one is still being in a party which I'd done 1.5 runs with - having joined half way through in the first run, I didn't have my SUV, but at the end of run 2 I did: "dude, how the fuck did that techer use an SUV?" "she's a cast I think" "heeeelllll no!" (they started laughing at this point and I was given 'props')

Anyway, Acrotecher came out, I switched her over as it was the obvious thing to do for even better support, and found the class just suits me down to the ground. And thus my 'for the lulz' character became my active main more or less. I've been trying to get the best from the class ever since.

At this point with me playing much less than I used to, I've had to liquidate my weapons for other classes to keep the AT palette up to scratch. I couldn't play another class at high level even if I wanted to.

This reply longer than planned as I am trying to find ways to put off wrapping my girlfriends presents, even though they're easy to wrap - books for the 12th consecutive year.

Alex305!

Dec 24, 2011, 09:30 PM

I should have added - I specialised in Acrotecher. The shoes fit so I wore them.

I was a Fortegunner (a pretty good one at that) to begin with. I was never able to comfortably make the switch to Gunmaster due to the loss of melee which was a big part of my FG gameplan - I just can't find the speed in the GM class that others do and feel like a fish out of water with it.

At the same time I had a caseal Fortetecher. I created her for the lulz, there was a lot of drama back then with Fortetechers shouting "Forces not nurses!!" in the lobby, and even trying to group together and actually go on strike - such was their resentment towards being considered support characters. So I went away and thought "fine, I'll give people what they want", and created a CAST nurse, who would always buff and heal - doing the job many of them didn't want to. She was quite the success and drew as many compliments as "wtf cast techer" comments. My favourite one is still being in a party which I'd done 1.5 runs with - having joined half way through in the first run, I didn't have my SUV, but at the end of run 2 I did: "dude, how the fuck did that techer use an SUV?" "she's a cast I think" "heeeelllll no!" (they started laughing at this point and I was given 'props')

Anyway, Acrotecher came out, I switched her over as it was the obvious thing to do for even better support, and found the class just suits me down to the ground. And thus my 'for the lulz' character became my active main more or less. I've been trying to get the best from the class ever since.

At this point with me playing much less than I used to, I've had to liquidate my weapons for other classes to keep the AT palette up to scratch. I couldn't play another class at high level even if I wanted to.

This reply longer than planned as I am trying to find ways to put off wrapping presents.

I was an acrotecher main too so reading this story left me with a smile.

RemiusTA

Dec 24, 2011, 10:38 PM

The 'no skill in PSU posts' have always been short sighted, and wrong.

You certainly can specialise in a class in this game, and there is an enourmous gap between someone who specialises in a class, and someone who just plays it from time to time. A large part of it is definitely learning what to use and when, based on maps and spawns (good luck if you think you can memorise them all, because I can't), but quality of execution matters too.

Knowing the spawns in and out of a mission have very little to do with your player skill and more to do with memory and your interest in level maps, as if the game wasn't already monotonous enough when you were actually surprised.

A player could get to Lv200, Max Class level, all Lv50 skills with the highest S-rank weapons in the game without knowning any of that crap. Most importantly, S-ranking missions doesn't even require that kind of devotion to the game. You just have to kill everything, and do it within a time limit. If you missed an enemy, go back through the stage and slice a few boxes -- That's it.

And if all else fails, this is an MMORPG -- you can either a) level up or b) find some party members, rendering all your "player skill" absolutely useless.

anyone can visit PSUPedia, or have a 10 minute conversation with a higher-leveled character in the game, and instantly be a "specialist" in their class. It isn't rocket science.

This game isn't Street Fighter or Blazblue. There is no deep combat system, there are no frames to count, there are no combos, and the amount of strategy in equipment vs. monsters is trivial at best; typical Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, played straight by the book (unfortunately). The only difference between races and sexes are a few stat points and the ability to clear everything in the room instantly for free if you pick cast.

tl;dr there's as much room for "skill" in Phantasy Star Universe as there is in Dynasty Warriors. Hell probably less.

Keilyn

Dec 25, 2011, 01:54 AM

Knowing the spawns in and out of a mission have very little to do with your player skill and more to do with memory and your interest in level maps, as if the game wasn't already monotonous enough when you were actually surprised.

A player could get to Lv200, Max Class level, all Lv50 skills with the highest S-rank weapons in the game without knowning any of that crap. Most importantly, S-ranking missions doesn't even require that kind of devotion to the game. You just have to kill everything, and do it within a time limit. If you missed an enemy, go back through the stage and slice a few boxes -- That's it.

And if all else fails, this is an MMORPG -- you can either a) level up or b) find some party members, rendering all your "player skill" absolutely useless.

anyone can visit PSUPedia, or have a 10 minute conversation with a higher-leveled character in the game, and instantly be a "specialist" in their class. It isn't rocket science.

This game isn't Street Fighter or Blazblue. There is no deep combat system, there are no frames to count, there are no combos, and the amount of strategy in equipment vs. monsters is trivial at best; typical Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, played straight by the book (unfortunately). The only difference between races and sexes are a few stat points and the ability to clear everything in the room instantly for free if you pick cast.

tl;dr there's as much room for "skill" in Phantasy Star Universe as there is in Dynasty Warriors. Hell probably less.

So you can have a conversation with a player who reached level to 180 from 1 in around 20 - 30 hours last event and call them a specialist? Speaking about Playerskill....In the S4 mission, you get most players at level 180 + GAS.

I've ran as AT in those missions in full parties. Sometimes we clear the entire map without anyone dying in 9 - 11 minutes. Other times we clear the map in 14 - 16 minutes, where half the players die at least once....or do strange things.

pikachief

Dec 25, 2011, 02:06 AM

I've ran as AT in those missions in full parties. Sometimes we clear the entire map without anyone dying in 9 - 11 minutes. Other times we clear the map in 14 - 16 minutes, where half the players die at least once....or do strange things.

I would call that stronger or weaker weapons or PAs, knowing the maps and spawns, and some people just can't dodge megid. Now if knowing when an enemy is going to hit u and moving before he does is skill, then that's about all the skill you need in this game IMO.

Halcyote

Dec 25, 2011, 02:16 AM

PlinderD

Dec 25, 2011, 03:44 AM

This is a rather interesting topic. Despite me not having played PSU. I can certainly relate to what is being said here.

Since I don't play PSU, I'm going to use another game to illustrate my point.

Megaman 2. It's a single player game (Was going to say Mario or Megaman 1, but those games have a score mechanic). There's no scoring system. There's no professional league associated with it. It's a simple game on the NES that people play to have fun.

Then you have this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7625378742479412059)

For those who don't want to click that, it's a Speed Run of the game. This is a game that takes a normal person a few hours to play, and in that video someone played through the game in a little below 30 minutes.

That game doesn't need to be finished in 30 minutes. I doubt that when Capcom developed MM2 they were designing it so people can run through it in less than an hour. Speed runs weren't popular back then.

Specialization has little to do with what you need to do to achieve something in a game. Or what the developers designed it for. It's about achieve a personal goal For the speed running community it's finishing the game as fast as possible. There are a number of ways to interpret the word "possible" but the mindset is the same.

There's a community dedicated to it, go google Speed Demos Archive, there's dozens of games featured there. For each of these games there are people who enjoy finding ways to play these games as fast as possible. Are you saying that the developers of all these games "intended" that they be played by people aiming for the best time?

Yeah, no.

Let me bring up another game. Super Metroid. The best ending in this game requires that the total playtime is less than 3 hours. The developers designed it that way. Yet there's a community of people dedicated to finishing the game even faster.

And while we're on the subject of Metroid and the "intent" of game developers. Visit any popular Metroid forum and you'll see a topics dedicated to "Sequence Breaking" What is Sequence Breaking? So let's say you have an area of the game that a player can only access by defeating the third boss. With Sequence Breaking, a player can utilize a game feature like getting propelled by a bomb weapon's explosion to enter that area without beating that boss.

"Sequence breaking" by definition is clearly not what the developers intended. But there's a community for it. And people are having fun trying and finding out different methods of sequence breaking.

So all these points raised about how PSU was "not designed" for specialization or that its not required? Know what? Yes, all of them are true. But that does not mean that players should not be allowed to specialize either

I enjoy doing speed runs of Megaman 2. Should I stop doing that because "it's not what the developers intended" or because "its not a requirement"? Hell no.

Keilyn

Dec 25, 2011, 04:13 AM

I refuse to believe that a level 170+ mobs in an event mission on Phantasy Star Universe requires any sort of specialist, or skill for that matter.

Are you trying to flaunt being an AT in this mission because people actually need your giresta to revive themselves once they ran out of scapes?

Do you really think I would flaunt in an online video game? You think I care and need the attention generated by a backwater jpn video game series? This series being backwater is a reason I like it. Its pretty low key compared to other game series I've seen out there. You don't see PSO/PSU being hyped and advertised everywhere.

Why would I need online attention when I have someone I love in the real world and I get plenty of attention already when I am up on the stage being viewed by anywhere from a few hundred people to a few thousand at a time.

In fact I get too much attention when I am dealing with idiots trying to typecast me simply because of the way I sound. ^_^

I wasn't referencing myself as some crazy AT. I stated before that ATs are more like the Bass Players of Bands. An AT creates a decent backbone, but its up to the other players to be damage dealers and destroy the map you know. Its true I can throw in the Whip PA every chance I get, but then I wouldn't be much of an AT and should have gone full WT if I was going to just spam a damage PA as an AT.

I was referencing the different experience I see from players in the parties I am in. Sometimes the parties are smart, other times they are pretty stupid and the time it takes to win really varies, but I've seen some cool things.

Favorite party so far have been Slicer Parties and Gunner Parties. Its funny seeing a Slicer Party acting like a firing squad against mobs. Ive seen a lot of different parties...Its all fun to me.

bloodflowers

Dec 25, 2011, 06:44 AM

anyone can visit PSUPedia, or have a 10 minute conversation with a higher-leveled character in the game, and instantly be a "specialist" in their class. It isn't rocket science.

This game isn't Street Fighter or Blazblue. There is no deep combat system, there are no frames to count, there are no combos, and the amount of strategy in equipment vs. monsters is trivial at best; typical Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, played straight by the book (unfortunately).

So it doesn't require skill because it doesn't fit within your prescribed list of things that require skill. I understand now, but you still don't - here is some freebie Christmas education:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/skill

Nowhere does it state skill only applies to pvp situations, or only particular types of activity, because that isn't what the word means.

Here's a suggestion - you go and earn/borrow top end guns on the 360 version, then go and have a '10 minute conversation' with a random level 180 Gunmaster. Next, go and beat GR Dragons TA times, they're posted over on official for some missions.

Have fun trying - should be easy, right? Since it doesn't take skill I imagine you'll have some results for us in a week or so.

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 25, 2011, 07:44 AM

I asked something similar to Guild Wars players as well as players who play class-based shooters. Even in shooters that have no classes (like Quake and UT) you still have play styles.

What happened in the threads was that people thought that specialization was more of a declaration of being elite in a class. One of my friends in the game Guild Wars played her Elementalist in a five year period for close to 6,000 hours counting AFKs and all of that.

She posted "I like being an Elementalist" and people bashed her as some elitist for just saying that. However in shooter forumboards I would compile a list of people out of clans who liked specializing in classes in order to organize 8v8 usually with 2 snipers, 3 front runners, 2 trappers/sabatours and usually 1 tailback (games without medics, tailbacks are used to clear paths to pickups to allow other players to get them or to camp certain pickups)

So far all I know is that Crys likes AF. I've always known that Midori likes MF. I've seen Jess before doing AF/FM. So I was curious.

I like trying to organize several types of players together for the fun, the laughs and the combination of things. PSU being class and race oriented is the main reason I actually play it. Its all about the characters.

Ha yeah I do love Fighmaster Acrofighter too i really enjoy Fortefighter abit more than AF however FF lacks something... Evp i wanna Just Counter so much more hence why i now play AF watch any of my videos i dont make a habit of missing Just counters often.

Btw our ignorant friend posting that psu takes no skill like to see him Just counter sorry to say but to pull it off often you need to anticpate when you see yourself about to get hit to JC, a good trigger finger/Lightning Reactions (i have that #1 Timesplitters fp player back on xbox yay!) and the ability to pay close attention its easy to miss it if one is slightly distracted sure anyone can get pull it off on the off occasion not meaning to do it.

Thats one form of skill in psu right there is it not?

Go on make video of you doing a run as AF/ MF remius love to see you pull off 95% of your blocks i bet dime you miss all of them.

And if you come back saying oh i dont play psu its terrible then why you here then?

Selphea

Dec 25, 2011, 10:03 AM

I won't say there's no skill required in PSU. PSU occupies a strange middle ground where it requires possibly the lowest amount of skill for its category, i.e. Action RPG, but that's still more skill than PvE in most point and click MMOs.

The thing about PSU, it's not hard, but the drops are stingy. The challenge isn't completing a mission, but maximizing the amount of completed missions in a given timeframe with the minimum amount of people to split it with. And the way it's set up, stupid as it sounds, even getting hit and dying can be considered a measure of skill depending on context, due to Revenge Blaster (increases damage as character HP decreases) and Avenge (increases damage when a party member dies).

Yes, any noob can play AF, FF or FI with Retsuzan, Renzan, SUV/Nano and a bunch of resist units and join randoms, but they usually end up worse off than skilled players who can solo or duo a mission faster than a full group of randoms, effectively getting drops at more than 3x to 6x their rate.

To do so requires a good knowledge of the tools at a character's disposal. It's not always about highest DPS. Sometimes, enemies swat them away before they get to the high damage part of a PA. Other times, a PA roots them in one spot, making them unable to dodge a salvo of Gaozoran fireballs. Yet other times, maintaining an advantageous position to set enemies up for the next combo may save more time than just finishing all 3 parts of a PA chain.

There's also meta-knowledge, like the number-crunching aspect of the game. On JP, Humans and Newmans get SUVs, and Humans get bonus GAS points. This means racial choice is no longer an oversimplified Newman for techer, Cast for everything else paradigm. It also affects things like line shield choices and unit choices. On my Human AT I had a lot of fun with my max EVP build because I did the number crunching to know what it was capable of (as well as other races), and I could arrive at pretty accurate damage numbers for a PA before I levelled one.

However, the learning curve is not very steep. It gets stale when the enemies haven't changed much over the past 5 years. The numbers go up but just about everything else remains the same. I'll resub when Sega announces Update 4th if it gives new toys to play with, like Charge Shots or Dark Falz Dios, otherwise it's been a fun half year.

But Remius, I had to add this:

[spoiler-box]Your arguments are four years old. Most of them aren't even relevant anymore. You quit the game as a failure: you failed at playing a Techer, you even got owned by Go-Vahras and yet you say the game requires no skill. News Flash: Welcome 2011, soon to be 2012. Techers aren't weak anymore, levelling and tech levelling doesn't take 200 hours anymore. Techers don't cost a fortune to gear up anymore. What are you QQing about? All you're doing is making yourself look like a scrub.

Worse, you've been crying about the same old things since the day I joined these forums and started JP PSU from scratch. I've already come full circle, getting 2 GASed and geared characters, doing everything I've wanted with the game and leaving. And you've done nothing, yet you keep coming back here. It looks to me like there's something in PSU you can't let go of. The only advice I can give for that is to stop being a scrub. Either pick this game up and get good at it, or just move on.[/spoiler-box]

Keilyn

Dec 25, 2011, 10:12 AM

Ha yeah I do love Fighmaster Acrofighter too i really enjoy Fortefighter abit more than AF however FF lacks something... Evp i wanna Just Counter so much more hence why i now play AF watch any of my videos i dont make a habit of missing Just counters often.

Btw our ignorant friend posting that psu takes no skill like to see him Just counter sorry to say but to pull it off often you need to anticpate when you see yourself about to get hit to JC, a good trigger finger/Lightning Reactions (i have that #1 Timesplitters fp player back on xbox yay!) and the ability to pay close attention its easy to miss it if one is slightly distracted sure anyone can get pull it off on the off occasion not meaning to do it.

Thats one form of skill in psu right there is it not?

Go on make video of you doing a run as AF/ MF remius love to see you pull off 95% of your blocks i bet dime you miss all of them.

And if you come back saying oh i dont play psu its terrible then why you here then?

Specialization is about dedication, proficiency along with love and faith. Its not about "being the best" out of pride, but trusting a path to its end regardless what is thrown in your direction. Its a mature way of showing "expertise" and "experience" and that is what translates into skill.

I am a musician and comp scientist. My music professor said it best in maturity when she said the following:

"If you don't believe the instrument you are playing is the best instrument in the world with a potential that you can see that no other can, then you are playing the wrong instrument. Follow your heart or it will nag you forever and you'll always be sad."

@Cloud

I enjoyed our Ohtori runs as WT. I also liked running that one day in the GBR. So long as wartecher and every day I play it in a different map and party I am always something new. It has a wide learning curve for me. ^_^

Alex305!

Dec 25, 2011, 10:33 AM

Are you guys saying PSU takes skill? Really? Well from someone who played fighters and RTS's a lot it does sound kinda silly...

[spoiler-box]Your arguments are four years old. Most of them aren't even relevant anymore. You quit the game as a failure: you failed at playing a Techer, you even got owned by Go-Vahras and yet you say the game requires no skill. News Flash: Welcome 2011, soon to be 2012. Techers aren't weak anymore, levelling and tech levelling doesn't take 200 hours anymore. Techers don't cost a fortune to gear up anymore. What are you QQing about? All you're doing is making yourself look like a scrub.

Worse, you've been crying about the same old things since the day I joined these forums and started JP PSU from scratch. I've already come full circle, getting 2 GASed and geared characters, doing everything I've wanted with the game and leaving. And you've done nothing, yet you keep coming back here. It looks to me like there's something in PSU you can't let go of. The only advice I can give for that is to stop being a scrub. Either pick this game up and get good at it, or just move on.[/spoiler-box]

This was a funny read. Especially the last line.

Also techers suck from 1-179

Selphea

Dec 25, 2011, 10:57 AM

Are you guys saying PSU takes skill? Really? Well from someone who played fighters and RTS's a lot it does sound kinda silly...

Just about everyone born after 1987 has played fighters and RTSes a lot, but apparently a portion of these people fail at one-shotting slow, stupid mobs in C-A missions and have to cry that a certain class sucks.

Also, please start listing the bogus titles and achievements that you have in these fighters and RTSes, so that you start an epeen battle where everyone is suddenly best in their country *grabs popcorn*

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 25, 2011, 11:16 AM

i have said it before and ill say it again people that tend to say psu takes no skill suck hardcore at playing it they run missions and dont care about what happens and dont take the game to seriously anyone on any game can not take the game seriously no matter how hard it is i mean they probably wont get far but if they dont care then i guess it takes no skill as they are not bothering.

Remius and others it is clear to me that you just dont play seriously so no skill is needed so this arguement is pointless.

Although you will disagree ANY game can take degree of skill if you care to dedicate yourself to said game.
On the flipside any game can also be played without any skill (just dont think you will get very far lol)

RemiusTA

Dec 25, 2011, 11:57 AM

Oh, oh

What is going in this thread[SPOILER-BOX]

Your arguments are four years old. Most of them aren't even relevant anymore. You quit the game as a failure: you failed at playing a Techer, you even got owned by Go-Vahras and yet you say the game requires no skill. News Flash: Welcome 2011, soon to be 2012. Techers aren't weak anymore, levelling and tech levelling doesn't take 200 hours anymore. Techers don't cost a fortune to gear up anymore. What are you QQing about? All you're doing is making yourself look like a scrub.

Does anyone else see how much sense this doesn't make? I'm a "scrub" because the game was significantly harder for the class when i was playing then when you started?

Worse, you've been crying about the same old things since the day I joined these forums and started JP PSU from scratch. I've already come full circle, getting 2 GASed and geared characters, doing everything I've wanted with the game and leaving. And you've done nothing, yet you keep coming back here. It looks to me like there's something in PSU you can't let go of. The only advice I can give for that is to stop being a scrub. Either pick this game up and get good at it, or just move on.

Okay you must really be getting some kind of enjoyment from calling me a "scrub"....But I really dont even know what you're trying to prove here. You've joined, gotten everything you've wanted, and quit, and this somehow means i was magically "bad" at the game while I was playing like, what, 3 years ago? Because of what, GAS and the ability to find drops and actually damage spawns with less effort? Oh, okay, Selphia. Very nice.

Aside from you trying your hardest to actually insult me, in two posts in a row now, none of that makes any sense as you have absolutely no idea what level I was or what gear I had when I was playing. Well, as if that has anything to do with this anyway, my point still stands. Instead of trying to insult everyone who disagrees with your STUUUUPER AMAZING videogame, you should have taken the approach of this guy :

That game doesn't need to be finished in 30 minutes. I doubt that when Capcom developed MM2 they were designing it so people can run through it in less than an hour. Speed runs weren't popular back then.

Specialization has little to do with what you need to do to achieve something in a game. Or what the developers designed it for. It's about achieve a personal goal For the speed running community it's finishing the game as fast as possible. There are a number of ways to interpret the word "possible" but the mindset is the same.

There's a community dedicated to it, go google Speed Demos Archive, there's dozens of games featured there. For each of these games there are people who enjoy finding ways to play these games as fast as possible. Are you saying that the developers of all these games "intended" that they be played by people aiming for the best time?

Yeah, no.

Who is speaking more in line with my point -- all this "skill" you're talking about is, indeed a form of skill, yet has crap to do with playing the actual game, and thus most people don't really give two shits. Like me! It's more of a personal thing. Whereas in games where player skill is required (Fighting games), or skill is ENCOURAGED through game design (Devil May Cry), it's a bit more of a, whats the word? "Tangible" achievement?

Or you could just listen to this guy:

Remius and others it is clear to me that you just dont play seriously so no skill is needed so this arguement is pointless.

Haha, which is so true, because no, i did not play this game seriously even when i was playing. In fact, when things stopped being a threat to me is when the game got boring, so I have zero interest in competing to see who can rip through the stage the fastest. Surprise in spawns and enemy setups that would deplete my inventory and threaten my life were where the fun was in this game. Of course this was underwhelming on my Hunter, quite overwhelming on my Force, and boring as fuck on my Ranger, so whatever. There's no point in me commenting on something i have zero interest in.

In which case i'll just go ahead and say skill (speed running) in PSU is more akin to speed running Super Mario Brothers, albeit farrrr less impressive, even to those who play the same game.

Or, something akin to a skill like being able to squirt milk out your nose. It's a skill, but seriously; who gives a fuck.
[/SPOILER-BOX]
And uh, cloud

Thats one form of skill in psu right there is it not?

Go on make video of you doing a run as AF/ MF remius love to see you pull off 95% of your blocks i bet dime you miss all of them.

And if you come back saying oh i dont play psu its terrible then why you here then?

If you want to call that skill, then.....i guess you can? Although i'd say a much better display of skill would be not getting hit. Sooooo

This is fun guys, it really is. Also, Merry Christmas! To those still on Dec 25th anyway.

Selphea

Dec 25, 2011, 12:11 PM

Stuff

Ok, so you are a pro badass mofo Techer.

Vids or ubad.

bloodflowers

Dec 25, 2011, 12:22 PM

Are you guys saying PSU takes skill? Really? Well from someone who played fighters and RTS's a lot it does sound kinda silly...

I'll give you the same challenge then - go and beat GR Dragons posted gunner times. I know I can't. Or if you have a MF go and try to take on Midori Okus times.

It's not silly at all. While just completing a mission is indeed laughably easy, time attacking them can be bitterly competitive - coming down to single second time increments.

People can be more or less skilled in pretty much any activity you care to consider. There's nothing sacred or special about certain game types that makes them more worthy. A friend recently linked me to some Wangan Midnight recordings on Youtube - it's a game with a very competitive scene in Japan, with people taking race times to the Nth level. I took one look at it and thought it looked pretty easy to be honest - I was one of the worlds top Midnight Club players and in comparison it looked pretty tame to me. If I actually tried to play Wangan though, I know I wouldn't have a hope in hell of keeping up with the videos I was linked to, because the players have sunk everything into learning to get every ounce of speed on the tracks - developing their skill within the confines of that game.

It has always seemed tremendously rude when people say 'PSU takes no skill'. I've never heard anyone who was any good at PSU say it in fact, which should tell you something. I've played with several people who come up with 'PSU is lol easy' lines, and my question for them would be 'so why are you so terrible at it?'.

Keilyn

Dec 25, 2011, 12:44 PM

When I started this thread, it was for two reasons:

The first being an appreciation for those who spend their time to really focus on that one or two classes to really gain their experience, skill and abilities in playing that class. The second was for players to come forward and identify themselves as players in that category.

I wanted for players who had a heart-felt desire and faith within their classes to have a voice too. Usually players come around and attack specialists and brand them as "Elitists" or something "negative." I know this very well as I've been such a victim of that in practically every major game I've played.

The idea here wasn't me trying to "Showoff as Acrotecher or Wartecher" but to see who feels strongly about their classes as I.

I brought it up because being xmas time, we spend time with family, friends and everything that familiar to us. Semesters being over for many mean they don't have to be hectic and can simply talk in a more calm manner about things. Its not a rush to get finals done or get everything done. Its break time and holidays for people who really deserve it.

So it wasn't a "thread out of greed" or a "thread out of trolling" and sure...but some of you thought it was given the "opinion you have of me" from "reading my posts" but never actually asking me directly what my attitude or disposition was. Amazing how you don't need to meet people just to be labelled and troubled by them.

@RemiusTA

[spoiler-box]You have argued about the failure of "Forces" in multiple threads with the same argument. This isn't an "Anti-Forces" thread and I wonder what is it that always keeps bringing this up from you. I am also asking you to please not argue on xmas day. This day is special and I want people to remain happy and pure. [/spoiler-box]

@Cloud

[spoiler-box]Any game out there requires some skill to learn, even greater skill to master. I've found to be good at anything you have to devote time to it. I spend more time in music because it won't go away. Games eventually close down and people move on to the sequel or next version. My arguments in the past were to that effect.

PSU will one day end. My music education and experience won't end. However, that doesn't mean the internals of a game aren't a wonder to behold. It just means when you play a game you have to treat it like each day can potentially be its last, much in the way in music that I may have skill and education, but that doesn't mean a day won't come when I face my final gig.[/spoiler-box]

@Selphia

[spoiler-box]I appreciate your initiative. I like you as a friend and although I can support your comment to Remius and frustrations, I would have so desired if you could have written it in another day.

Where I live its xmas. I know its over for you, but I can empathize with others...

On Xmas I do all possible to make sure that even if its my most hated enemy, I don't want to argue on xmas day or the holiday week for that matter. You can tear each other apart the other 51 weeks of the year but I use the final week of every year to try to reflect upon myself and I know I would be sad if I was insulted on xmas day regardless the reason, so I try to not insult others on such a day.[/spoiler-box]

We have a white xmas here. I would have loved to sing today, but I am physically sick. I would have so much loved to sing the Hallelujah mass today :( I am not religious, but I have a love for Sacred Music.

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 25, 2011, 01:03 PM

@ Remius
Selphia has beaten you cant come back from that he hit the nail on the head.

Next your comment about not getting hit... i get hit on purpose reason as i said Just counter with the Gas Abilty Just Counter damage+ lvl 2 i do and extra 20% damage that in turns makes me do more damage duh? = fast runs!

Alex305!

Dec 25, 2011, 03:16 PM

Just about everyone born after 1987 has played fighters and RTSes a lot, but apparently a portion of these people fail at one-shotting slow, stupid mobs in C-A missions and have to cry that a certain class sucks.

Also, please start listing the bogus titles and achievements that you have in these fighters and RTSes, so that you start an epeen battle where everyone is suddenly best in their country *grabs popcorn*

I must have struck a nerve. I'm sorry I insulted the skill level of this game. I like how you called me out too.

Like I'm going to entertain that post.

I'll give you the same challenge then - go and beat GR Dragons posted gunner times. I know I can't. Or if you have a MF go and try to take on Midori Okus times.

It's not silly at all. While just completing a mission is indeed laughably easy, time attacking them can be bitterly competitive - coming down to single second time increments.

People can be more or less skilled in pretty much any activity you care to consider. There's nothing sacred or special about certain game types that makes them more worthy. A friend recently linked me to some Wangan Midnight recordings on Youtube - it's a game with a very competitive scene in Japan, with people taking race times to the Nth level. I took one look at it and thought it looked pretty easy to be honest - I was one of the worlds top Midnight Club players and in comparison it looked pretty tame to me. If I actually tried to play Wangan though, I know I wouldn't have a hope in hell of keeping up with the videos I was linked to, because the players have sunk everything into learning to get every ounce of speed on the tracks - developing their skill within the confines of that game.

It has always seemed tremendously rude when people say 'PSU takes no skill'. I've never heard anyone who was any good at PSU say it in fact, which should tell you something. I've played with several people who come up with 'PSU is lol easy' lines, and my question for them would be 'so why are you so terrible at it?'.

It was rude my bad but your attitude to those who don't like it make you no different. Every game can be played with skill like another poster said. However PSU skill ceiling is so low it only appears at the highest level.

So we have the TA'ers bagging on anybody who doesn't think its skillful and we have the ones (and I am guilty of this) comparing this do different irrelevant games. I can give you challenges too. All it does is make us respect it. Skill is respectable no matter what. Even stacking cups get ooos from people who are not even a part of it. However when it comes down to it PSU just has a low skill ceiling and that is what I should have posted. Excuse me.

hewitt

Dec 25, 2011, 06:13 PM

@ Remius
Selphia has beaten you cant come back from that he hit the nail on the head.

I don't know, I thought they both had pretty good arguments but selphia's last post kinda just seemed dumb. I don't think he ever claimed he was a pro badass techer, and then going on to tell him to make a vid to justify a claim he never made.../shrug

Selphea

Dec 25, 2011, 06:53 PM

@Selphia

[spoiler-box]I appreciate your initiative. I like you as a friend and although I can support your comment to Remius and frustrations, I would have so desired if you could have written it in another day.

Where I live its xmas. I know its over for you, but I can empathize with others...

On Xmas I do all possible to make sure that even if its my most hated enemy, I don't want to argue on xmas day or the holiday week for that matter. You can tear each other apart the other 51 weeks of the year but I use the final week of every year to try to reflect upon myself and I know I would be sad if I was insulted on xmas day regardless the reason, so I try to not insult others on such a day.[/spoiler-box]

Eh, arguments can happen anytime of the year as long as the people involved know how to distance themselves from it and focus on the issue. It's not up to me to control whether a person's ego gets bruised when they spout BS and I call them out. That's exactly what's happening here: a bunch of unskilled lowbies got pwned by the game and call it "no skill", sounds like sour grapes to me lol =x

Now, they're bringing in fighting games and cite "combos" and "frames to count" as measures of skill. I actually used to play fighters competitively. Long enough to understand that combos and knowing frame data are not the true measures of skill in fighters. Knowing them can give a player an edge, but they don't win the game. To a bigger extent than anything else, it's what David Sirlin coins "Yomi", or reading the opponent's moves. I'll say it out here: I don't respect players like Uryo, Kaqn or Woshige for being able to do fancy combos because I can do them too, it just takes like 2 hours in Training Mode; I respect them for knowing when not to do fancy combos.

As far as Yomi goes, PSU has some elements in common with fighting games. Against certain hard mobs, unskilled players will simply go "oh mob X ignores all my attacks and keeps swatting me away QQ". Skilled players on the other hand know the mob's blind spots or how to provoke them into creating an opening. Of course, this is vs. CPU, so the challenge level is lower than fighting a human opponent, although the game tries to make up for it with sheer numbers of enemies. That said, a PSU TA vid demonstrates more skill than say, a combo video showing 112 hit Chun-li combos, or a video trolling a fighting game's CPU AI, simply because there's no adaptability to be demonstrated by hitting a training mode dummy or even a single predictable opponent.

So yes, it "struck a nerve". I expected more from fighting game players.

PlinderD

Dec 25, 2011, 07:28 PM

More or less impressive? Skill ceiling? What does this have to do with people wanting to excel at a given playstyle in any game?

There's a bunch of people out there speedrunning Myst. My math professor in college tried to calculate the chances for an unwinnable game given any initial layout of cards in Solitaire.

Myst and Solitaire. Myst certainly has a "skill ceiling". Solitaire is... Solitaire.

Sure maybe some of the Myst speedrunners are doing it out of recognition, but I know of at least one guy who's just doing it because he loves the game and the concept of speedrunning. My math prof wasn't going to publish some book on Solitaire theory, she didn't even think that it could applied practically. She invested time and effort into Solitaire because she loves math and Solitaire was, at a personal level, an interesting subject to apply it on.

It's not always about how many people you impress, or how Game A is a lot "cooler" to challenge or excel in than Game B. It is, however, almost always about finding something fun to do and doing it. For a bunch of other people, fun also involves making the best out of a game or even a specific playstyle of a game. It's that simple.

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 25, 2011, 07:34 PM

Eh, arguments can happen anytime of the year as long as the people involved know how to distance themselves from it and focus on the issue. It's not up to me to control whether a person's ego gets bruised when they spout BS and I call them out. That's exactly what's happening here: a bunch of unskilled lowbies got pwned by the game and call it "no skill", sounds like sour grapes to me lol =x

Now, they're bringing in fighting games and cite "combos" and "frames to count" as measures of skill. I actually used to play fighters competitively. Long enough to understand that combos and knowing frame data are not the true measures of skill in fighters. Knowing them can give a player an edge, but they don't win the game. To a bigger extent than anything else, it's what David Sirlin coins "Yomi", or reading the opponent's moves. I'll say it out here: I don't respect players like Uryo, Kaqn or Woshige for being able to do fancy combos because I can do them too, it just takes like 2 hours in Training Mode; I respect them for knowing when not to do fancy combos.

As far as Yomi goes, PSU has some elements in common with fighting games. Against certain hard mobs, unskilled players will simply go "oh mob X ignores all my attacks and keeps swatting me away QQ". Skilled players on the other hand know the mob's blind spots or how to provoke them into creating an opening. Of course, this is vs. CPU, so the challenge level is lower than fighting a human opponent, although the game tries to make up for it with sheer numbers of enemies. That said, a PSU TA vid demonstrates more skill than say, a combo video showing 112 hit Chun-li combos, or a video trolling a fighting game's CPU AI, simply because there's no adaptability to be demonstrated by hitting a training mode dummy or even a single predictable opponent.

So yes, it "struck a nerve". I expected more from fighting game players.
If anything in TA with the terrible AI in psu makes for an unpredictiable outcome as sometimes monsters are plain dumb and ruin perfect runs yes im looking at you Vanda!!!!!!! gah!! and zampas

Alex305!

Dec 25, 2011, 08:58 PM

Eh, arguments can happen anytime of the year as long as the people involved know how to distance themselves from it and focus on the issue. It's not up to me to control whether a person's ego gets bruised when they spout BS and I call them out. That's exactly what's happening here: a bunch of unskilled lowbies got pwned by the game and call it "no skill", sounds like sour grapes to me lol =x

Now, they're bringing in fighting games and cite "combos" and "frames to count" as measures of skill. I actually used to play fighters competitively. Long enough to understand that combos and knowing frame data are not the true measures of skill in fighters. Knowing them can give a player an edge, but they don't win the game. To a bigger extent than anything else, it's what David Sirlin coins "Yomi", or reading the opponent's moves. I'll say it out here: I don't respect players like Uryo, Kaqn or Woshige for being able to do fancy combos because I can do them too, it just takes like 2 hours in Training Mode; I respect them for knowing when not to do fancy combos.

As far as Yomi goes, PSU has some elements in common with fighting games. Against certain hard mobs, unskilled players will simply go "oh mob X ignores all my attacks and keeps swatting me away QQ". Skilled players on the other hand know the mob's blind spots or how to provoke them into creating an opening. Of course, this is vs. CPU, so the challenge level is lower than fighting a human opponent, although the game tries to make up for it with sheer numbers of enemies. That said, a PSU TA vid demonstrates more skill than say, a combo video showing 112 hit Chun-li combos, or a video trolling a fighting game's CPU AI, simply because there's no adaptability to be demonstrated by hitting a training mode dummy or even a single predictable opponent.

So yes, it "struck a nerve". I expected more from fighting game players.

A TA which is the highest psu has to offer...Compared to a Combo video which is solely for demonstration purposes?

....

Read my response to flowers.

Also yomi against a CPU. Even then a random enemy?

Wow and I told my self I would not respond....

Selphea

Dec 25, 2011, 09:19 PM

A TA which is the highest psu has to offer...Compared to a Combo video which is solely for demonstration purposes?

If it's for "demonstration purposes", what is it demonstrating?

Also yomi against a CPU. Even then a random enemy?

If you want to question it, you have to explain why it's not.

Alex305!

Dec 25, 2011, 09:27 PM

If it's for "demonstration purposes", what is it demonstrating?

If you want to question it, you have to explain why it's not.

Execution and possibilities of the combo engine which greatly varies from each fighting game. Some are even done with macros.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/43022/yomi

Yomi is the Japanese word for “reading,” as in reading the mind of your opponent

Reading the mind of a cpu...

I'm not responding to you anymore.

Selphea

Dec 25, 2011, 09:37 PM

Execution and possibilities of the combo engine which greatly varies from each fighting game. Some are even done with macros.

And yet, some combo makers, like Desk, are given credit for their "skill".

Reading the mind of a cpu...

I've fought human-controlled Sol Badguys and Kens who were easier to read than PSU's AI.

Keilyn

Dec 25, 2011, 10:50 PM

Execution and possibilities of the combo engine which greatly varies from each fighting game. Some are even done with macros.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/43022/yomi

Yomi is the Japanese word for “reading,” as in reading the mind of your opponent

Reading the mind of a cpu...

I'm not responding to you anymore.

Actually its "Yonde ki ni....."

"Reading a person's spirit/energy/mind" as part of some idiomatic expressions.

Yomu = 読む

There is also such thing as saying

Kanojo wa watashi no kokoro wo yonda.

"She read my mind" (kokoro is the heart, mind or spirit too, in the sense of energy, feeling and perception)

Alex305!

Dec 26, 2011, 01:44 AM

Actually its "Yonde ki ni....."

"Reading a person's spirit/energy/mind" as part of some idiomatic expressions.

Yomu = 読む

There is also such thing as saying

Kanojo wa watashi no kokoro wo yonda.

"She read my mind" (kokoro is the heart, mind or spirit too, in the sense of energy, feeling and perception)

Oh I see. However that definition of yomi I got from the website itself. I guess whoever is in charge of that article needs to clarify this.

RemiusTA

Dec 26, 2011, 04:18 AM

Ok, so you are a pro badass mofo Techer.

Vids or ubad.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you even trying to make sense anymore aside from try to pick fights with me like you've been trying to do for so long now?

What, do you think you look good by picking arguments with me, Selphia? Am I that awesome to you?

Oh I see. However that definition of yomi I got from the website itself. I guess whoever is in charge of that article needs to clarify this.

To clarify in very simple terms, Yomi, in context of fighting games (I.E. the reason it was brought up) is basically the concept of anticipating your opponents reactions and conditioning them to do what you want them to do. I.E. intentionally throwing out certain moves to open them up to others. Or to "trap" your opponent into thinking you're going to do one thing, and instead hit them with another.

A more common term is "Mindgames". Same thing.

[SPOILER-BOX]

Simple example, take Street Fighter for example. You have a character that spams fireballs all day. So you eventually jump over the fireballs and hit the opponent. That is Yomi.

Opponent catches onto this. So instead of spamming fireballs, opponent shoots one, then instantly jumps in the air and kicks you as you jump. HE anticipated that YOU anticipated he was going to throw another fireball in succession. So he kicked you out of your counter to his stragety. That is yomi.

You catch onto this. So the opponent shoots another fireball. You anticipate he's going to try to kick you out of your counter jump, so you stand where you are and use an Anti-air attack to hit him out of his counter for your counter. You anticipated that he anticipated that you would anticipate a counter to...

....you see where this is going.

This is pretty simplified, but the concept itself is simple; it happens all the time, probably without you even knowing you're doing it, and even the most simplistic of players can grasp the concept. But the concept, given name, is called Yomi.

[/SPOILER-BOX]

This said, you cannot yomi a CPU opponent. They're computers, not humans. You can't condition them, you can only exploit their patterns. You can argue that you can do it by scemantics, but it's pointless; I don't know a single fighting game where you can learn yomi techniques by practicing on the CPU. It will get you blown up in all sorts of hilarious ways.

In fact, the first thing most fighting game players have to cope with upon entering the online / pvp scene is realizing that the dumb shit that worked against the computers does not work against humans. (Then they later learn the dumb shit that works against bad humans doesn't work against good ones either. LoL.)

[SPOILER-BOX]

If it's for "demonstration purposes", what is it demonstrating?

Basically, their knowledge of their character and the game, and what's possible given the system mechanics of the game. Time Attacking in PSU is the same concept, but like i said, exponentially less impressive. For obvious reasons. Time Attack and Combo Videos are, in essence, the exact same thing. The difference comes with application. I don't think anyone on the planet will pick up Street Fighter, play for 10 hours, pick up Phantasy Star Universe, play for 10 hours, then look at PSU TA videos and a SF Combo video and say "Wow PSU takes way more skill than that". Not happening.

Which makes this particular read here...:

As far as Yomi goes, PSU has some elements in common with fighting games. Against certain hard mobs, unskilled players will simply go "oh mob X ignores all my attacks and keeps swatting me away QQ". Skilled players on the other hand know the mob's blind spots or how to provoke them into creating an opening. Of course, this is vs. CPU, so the challenge level is lower than fighting a human opponent, although the game tries to make up for it with sheer numbers of enemies. That said, a PSU TA vid demonstrates more skill than say, a combo video showing 112 hit Chun-li combos, or a video trolling a fighting game's CPU AI, simply because there's no adaptability to be demonstrated by hitting a training mode dummy or even a single predictable opponent.

...Oh boy, you make me want to kick my cat in the teeth. I don't even know how to respond to this.

Instead of trying to combat your ridiculously long-winded and flawed logic (which i honestly don't even know how to point out in words, and im not about to waste time looking it up), i'll just ask you a simple question.

DO YOU, Selphia, believe that If you were to take the player who made this video (absolutely no offense to you, Midori, but you're the first one i found)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm6DfOA4OIA

and give it to this Blazblue player, who made this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNUezA5N6RI

and vice versa, and tell both people to "reproduce what you see" under the same conditions, who do you think has the easier job here?

Which one do you think is more difficult? Well, most importantly, which one takes more skill? You can obviously see both videos, both players could simply mimic the actions of the other. But i think we both know who has the unfair draw here. Running up to enemies, using an attack, and watching them die, vs. Learning muscle memory for an entire character's moveset, how to input the commands and when, ect ect. Whereas MOST of the difficult work in the PSU video would be already done for you upon being handed that character with that equipment, Noel Vermillion is the exact same character every time you play the game, and it still takes months of using the character to get to that level. Hell, longer than that if you've never played a fighting game before.

Whatever, i shouldn't have to go through why this scenario is stupid to begin with, but you made me read that post up there, so we're even.

Also please note, Noel is OP as fuck on CS2 and MOST of her her combos in this rebalance are pretty god damn hard to drop for any player who's worth blocking against.
[/SPOILER-BOX]

I've fought human-controlled Sol Badguys and Kens who were easier to read than PSU's AI.

Play people who don't suck. Also, you don't "READ" the CPU. That is impossible. You exploit patterns. They are computers. They do not have minds, unless they're programmed to. In which case they would probably still be terribly exploitable. If they so wished, most fighting games would have CPUs that were literally untouchable outside of whatever pattern you could exploit to defeat them. They know what move you're using before the freaking frame updates.

Seriously Selphia, this makes no sense. I will admit that the game does take some skill to play, since everything does take SOME amount of skill to do. But you seriously trying to put this game on the same level as a tournament-level fighter is just you being completely blind and obsessive. I understand you are proud of this game and whatever you may have achieved in it. That's nice. I used to be proud of my ability to wow everyone with the whole "pulling my own finger off" illusion in middle school, too!

"I expected more from fighting game players". PFFT, what the hell? You don't even have an argument. You're just desperately searching for one. Take the game for what it is and leave it at that, why do these simple discussions always have to turn into such retarded arguments? You've sunk this conversation into to calling me a scrub in a game that takes one fucking button to excel at. Open your eyes already.

bloodflowers

Dec 26, 2011, 06:59 AM

Well - didn't this thread take a turn for the worse.. Fighting game bores and westerners arguing about universal concepts using Japanese words for no particular reason.

And all because some people who were likely not anywhere close to the top of their game in PSU, seem to resent the fact that actually being fast takes skill, and that PSU was actually better than PSO. It really is you know, not content-wise perhaps but the core gameplay in PSO is awful and clunky in comparison to PSU.

Fortunately I have a Boxing Day dinner to attend, and then my sister and nephew are visiting to play on the pinball and arcade machines. Heaven knows it's impossible to play PSU at the moment with the wonderful lag they've given us.

Keilyn

Dec 26, 2011, 07:39 AM

I've reported RemiusTA's post to a moderator for being the source of instigation within this topic. This topic is not about all the argument or counterarguments created by him, but about players who take the time to specialize in given classes and having a voice of reflection deserved after spending so much time devoted and dedicated to their favorite PSU Job type and classes.

When I was in PC/PS2 my love was masterforce due to its sheer difficulty in playing. Before the Supp Update it was a far weaker class. Masterforce in PC/PS2 taught me how to survive. I had low HP and had to always attack enemies with weakness or work on my positioning. It did not allow me to win always by the method of brute force and I loved it.

Even playing through PSU JP, it was the MF experience prior to the Supplement Update that really taught me the game and I remember I got to the point I managed to beat most maps without scaping.

I was happy to run around with 2000 HP and plan out each room though it took a lot of time.

PSU is interesting that the approach to the game is different for each Job and because of that its neat to simply watch videos of each class doing something different.

Ohtori was an example of this. Each class that beat Ethan in Ohtori in Solo did something totally different to win and I enjoyed seeing that in those videos.

bloodflowers

Dec 26, 2011, 12:34 PM

bloodflowers: Your argument like I said before doesn't actually prove or help anyone see why TA takes skill and is practically implying "umad bcuzu bad".

I can't understand why it even needs explaining. To TA in PSU and keep up with the best you need all of the following: experience, knowledge, equipment, dexterity and reactions. Skill is not defined as 'ability to play specific game types at a high level'. Stop trying to hijack it as such.

To beat a mission is childs play, to do it really well takes dedication.

There's nothing complex to understand here. Have you ever tried to time attack in PSU? Group TAs are even more involved because you need to come up with 4 separate game plans, and then all 4 people need to execute them accurately. It's about shaving each second off the completion time for the mission. That means getting in your Just Attack and Just Counters, it means using PAs effectively - for example at the start of Seed Express there is one specific fast way of killing the first spawn with an Acrotecher, it's about 1.5 seconds quicker than the next best. It requires not only that you correctly place yourself and hit all the JAs, but you need to actually stretch the gaps in the JA out a tiny and turn through about 160 degrees during the different parts to kill all four Pannon in a single combo.

There's even a slight element of PA delay cancelling you can do in PSU. Nobody ever does of course, but if you're running TA you might use it. Then you have skills such as knowing how to actually use Hikai properly - almost nobody gets this right.

I don't think reporting people to moderators for having an opinion was very productive though.

Alex305!

Dec 26, 2011, 01:02 PM

I can't understand why it even needs explaining. To TA in PSU and keep up with the best you need all of the following: experience, knowledge, equipment, dexterity and reactions. Skill is not defined as 'ability to play specific game types at a high level'. Stop trying to hijack it as such.

To beat a mission is childs play, to do it really well takes dedication.

There's nothing complex to understand here. Have you ever tried to time attack in PSU? Group TAs are even more involved because you need to come up with 4 separate game plans, and then all 4 people need to execute them accurately. It's about shaving each second off the completion time for the mission. That means getting in your Just Attack and Just Counters, it means using PAs effectively - for example at the start of Seed Express there is one specific fast way of killing the first spawn with an Acrotecher, it's about 1.5 seconds quicker than the next best. It requires not only that you correctly place yourself and hit all the JAs, but you need to actually stretch the gaps in the JA out a tiny and turn through about 160 degrees during the different parts to kill all four Pannon in a single combo.

There's even a slight element of PA delay cancelling you can do in PSU. Nobody ever does of course, but if you're running TA you might use it. Then you have skills such as knowing how to actually use Hikai properly - almost nobody gets this right.

I don't think reporting people to moderators for having an opinion was very productive though.

This is just being ignorant. Are you trying to imply that its unreasonable to not know TA specifics if you're not a TAer?

"Skill is not defined as 'ability to play specific game types at a high level"

Did you not read my response? That's where I clarified skill ceiling.

"Have you ever tried to time attack in PSU?"

Timed missions against my friends but I didn't have the gear (luck) or PA's (time) to do it at a competitive level. It was casual.

"There's even a slight element of PA delay cancelling you can do in PSU. Nobody ever does of course, but if you're running TA you might use it."

I thought this was common knowledge... Anyway its 2011 by now people who still play this and are not new know how to delay PA. Steer mobile PA's to hit enemies in the back. Trap effects and SUV spots.

"Stop trying to hijack it as such."

Stop being dense. I was just honestly surprised... read my first post. Nobody here actually explained why I just got attacked but It was stupid of me for having a different opinion on a Phantasy star series forum.

You gotta love the forums.

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 26, 2011, 01:55 PM

Alex305!

Dec 26, 2011, 02:02 PM

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 26, 2011, 02:32 PM

Are you referencing to my post?
Im referencing my post any ignorant person(s) that is so stupid to think psu takes no skill i can agree fightning games take more skill than psu sure heck i play blazblue among other fighters lol.

Ill say it again ANY GAME heck not just games anything in life can take some degree of skill if you can not see this then you must be blind.

redroses

Dec 26, 2011, 02:33 PM

Funny how people who claim psu is easy blah blah has no skill are the people that tend to suck at it.
Funny how you never hear players that TA and even the ones that just like to run casual but still do fast runs you never him them say psu takes no skill...

But i always have heard through the past 5 years of playing psu hear Lazy, bad, terrible, casual players say that psu is easy how strange?

Remius from your alot of recent posts is quite clear that you were a terrible Force Go varha mess you up??? i played techer back then too go varha were cake damdiga ever heard of it? i guess not.

I'm a casual player , and I also think that PSU doesn't take much skill to play it. Skill to TA, somewhat yes, but not to normally play PSU. PSU is a really crazy easy game to pick up, and even the dumbest player can play it no problem .
And like Remius has said, I find it is much easier to bring up the "skill" to TA in PSU then it would be to master a character in a fighting game. Already because the skill aspect also comes down to the equip your character has. If a MF player has a rutsularod for example, they will kill a lightning monster faster with a ground technic then the most skilled player would with a weaker rod.

Uhhh, I hope how somehow made sense, for some reason I had so much trouble trying to word this right, ha.

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 26, 2011, 02:48 PM

I'm a casual player , and I also think that PSU doesn't take much skill to play it. Skill to TA, somewhat yes, but not to normally play PSU. PSU is a really crazy easy game to pick up, and even the dumbest player can play it no problem .
And like Remius has said, I find it is much easier to bring up the "skill" to TA in PSU then it would be to master a character in a fighting game. Already because the skill aspect also comes down to the equip your character has. If a MF player has a rutsularod for example, they will kill a lightning monster faster with a ground technic then the most skilled player would with a weaker rod.

Uhhh, I hope how somehow made sense, for some reason I had so much trouble trying to word this right, ha.
Read my post above you.

Alex305!

Dec 26, 2011, 03:03 PM

Im referencing my post any ignorant person(s) that is so stupid to think psu takes no skill i can agree fightning games take more skill than psu sure heck i play blazblue among other fighters lol.

Ill say it again ANY GAME heck not just games anything in life can take some degree of skill if you can not see this then you must be blind.

Yeah because I was a little worried. This was clarified in previous posts that anything can take a certain amount of skill. I just don't think PSU requires much.

Sophia summed it up:

I won't say there's no skill required in PSU. PSU occupies a strange middle ground where it requires possibly the lowest amount of skill for its category, i.e. Action RPG, but that's still more skill than PvE in most point and click MMOs.

The thing about PSU, it's not hard, but the drops are stingy. The challenge isn't completing a mission, but maximizing the amount of completed missions in a given timeframe with the minimum amount of people to split it with. And the way it's set up, stupid as it sounds, even getting hit and dying can be considered a measure of skill depending on context, due to Revenge Blaster (increases damage as character HP decreases) and Avenge (increases damage when a party member dies).

Yes, any noob can play AF, FF or FI with Retsuzan, Renzan, SUV/Nano and a bunch of resist units and join randoms, but they usually end up worse off than skilled players who can solo or duo a mission faster than a full group of randoms, effectively getting drops at more than 3x to 6x their rate.

To do so requires a good knowledge of the tools at a character's disposal. It's not always about highest DPS. Sometimes, enemies swat them away before they get to the high damage part of a PA. Other times, a PA roots them in one spot, making them unable to dodge a salvo of Gaozoran fireballs. Yet other times, maintaining an advantageous position to set enemies up for the next combo may save more time than just finishing all 3 parts of a PA chain.

There's also meta-knowledge, like the number-crunching aspect of the game. On JP, Humans and Newmans get SUVs, and Humans get bonus GAS points. This means racial choice is no longer an oversimplified Newman for techer, Cast for everything else paradigm. It also affects things like line shield choices and unit choices. On my Human AT I had a lot of fun with my max EVP build because I did the number crunching to know what it was capable of (as well as other races), and I could arrive at pretty accurate damage numbers for a PA before I levelled one.

However, the learning curve is not very steep. It gets stale when the enemies haven't changed much over the past 5 years. The numbers go up but just about everything else remains the same. I'll resub when Sega announces Update 4th if it gives new toys to play with, like Charge Shots or Dark Falz Dios, otherwise it's been a fun half year.

.Rusty.

Dec 26, 2011, 03:05 PM

Why is there never any middle ground in these arguments?
I mean there is skill in doing runs fast but it just doesn't feel like the game was made for competitive play. What with equipment being luck / gc, random map / spawn layouts,client side ai that updates when you swing the camera around and no dedicated time attack mode (well apart from a few time attack leaderboards on some events but they seem kinda half assed).

If sega came out with a ta mode that had you take control of a premade character on a run with set spawns i would probably get addicted to it.But the way it is now just can't take it seriously.TA is just something to make soloing a bit less boring.

bloodflowers

Dec 26, 2011, 03:48 PM

This is just being ignorant.

Er...?

1) Several posts, skill argument happens again, various people involved

2) You say one of my posts doesn't help anyone understand how PSU takes skill

3) I explain why it does.

4) I am now ignorant.

Is that what just happened here?

Believe me, if I was actually attacking or poking at you unfairly in some way you'd know all about it.

Alex305!

Dec 26, 2011, 04:03 PM

Er...?

1) Several posts, skill argument happens again, various people involved

2) You say one of my posts doesn't help anyone understand how PSU takes skill

3) I explain why it does.

4) I am now ignorant.

Is that what just happened here?

Believe me, if I was actually attacking or poking at you unfairly in some way you'd know all about it.

I highlighted what I though was ignorant in bold.

"I can't understand why it even needs explaining. To TA in PSU and keep up with the best you need all of the following: experience, knowledge, equipment, dexterity and reactions. Skill is not defined as 'ability to play specific game types at a high level'. Stop trying to hijack it as such."

You don't think with all of these posts against TA being a valid demonstration of skill you can post something like that without raising a couple of eyebrows?

"Believe me, if I was actually attacking or poking at you unfairly in some way you'd know all about it."

I'm not worried about that. I don't even know how this was even implied. What I am concerned about however is how (looking back at this thread) forum posters actually posted some of the things they did. I tell my self I wouldn't be surprised but you guys always get me.

Keilyn

Dec 26, 2011, 04:16 PM

I highlighted what I though was ignorant in bold.

"I can't understand why it even needs explaining. To TA in PSU and keep up with the best you need all of the following: experience, knowledge, equipment, dexterity and reactions. Skill is not defined as 'ability to play specific game types at a high level'. Stop trying to hijack it as such."

You don't think with all of these posts against TA being a valid demonstration of skill you can post something like that without raising a couple of eyebrows?

You also need a decent machine, a good internet connection and configuration as well as good response time. You can have all the skill you want but you wont do well if your ping is too high in any game.

Since I started this thread let me at least have the decency and honesty to delegate and regulate my own thread.

1. I do neutral-pallete TAs for myself. I know how difficult it can be. Preparation is very important.

2. TAing actually makes you a specialist at a map or area in the game. It has you play so much in one map to get good times learning the map and spawns inside and out and adjusting your pallete accordingly and looking for ways to mix and match things.

3. There are some who throw their lowest times. Lowest times are that....Lowest Times and chances of replicating the lowest times are not high, but its nice to catch that as an achievement. TAers like most players run by their common-time or average time regardless their speed and abilities.

4. Some players use TAing as "Competition" against each other. However, in truth TAing is something everyone can learn to do. The idea is to reach the clear boxes as fast as you possibly can. You don't have to have the best equipment out there, you just have to know how to run a map to save time. Your times can drop by a third to even one half with good planning and a small change in a pallete without having to completely overhaul everything. You won't get the BEST TIME in the game but you will GET A LOWER TIME FOR YOURSELF. That in itself saves you some time. Its great in events as they are time-sensitive and hold good drops.

Ok, opening up to the TAers out there, please answer the following question:

"Can you categorize what you would consider to be specialist who is not a TAer. Remember that not all types are inherently designed to demolish every map with ease."

Cloudstrife xx

Dec 26, 2011, 05:19 PM

You also need a decent machine, a good internet connection and configuration as well as good response time. You can have all the skill you want but you wont do well if your ping is too high in any game.

Since I started this thread let me at least have the decency and honesty to delegate and regulate my own thread.

1. I do neutral-pallete TAs for myself. I know how difficult it can be. Preparation is very important.

2. TAing actually makes you a specialist at a map or area in the game. It has you play so much in one map to get good times learning the map and spawns inside and out and adjusting your pallete accordingly and looking for ways to mix and match things.

3. There are some who throw their lowest times. Lowest times are that....Lowest Times and chances of replicating the lowest times are not high, but its nice to catch that as an achievement. TAers like most players run by their common-time or average time regardless their speed and abilities.

4. Some players use TAing as "Competition" against each other. However, in truth TAing is something everyone can learn to do. The idea is to reach the clear boxes as fast as you possibly can. You don't have to have the best equipment out there, you just have to know how to run a map to save time. Your times can drop by a third to even one half with good planning and a small change in a pallete without having to completely overhaul everything. You won't get the BEST TIME in the game but you will GET A LOWER TIME FOR YOURSELF. That in itself saves you some time. Its great in events as they are time-sensitive and hold good drops.

Ok, opening up to the TAers out there, please answer the following question:

"Can you categorize what you would consider to be specialist who is not a TAer. Remember that not all types are inherently designed to demolish every map with ease."
I agree with this post.

GCoffee

Dec 26, 2011, 05:38 PM

Being able to do successive runs with my brain turned off is somewhat problematic if I planned to argue in favor of PSU's toughness. That I did not plan to do, though.
That TAing is so widespread that most players do it in the first place is enough prove to me that the game itself provides barely any if not zero challenges to tackle.

That said, unlike the game itself, mastering TAing can still prove to be a challenge.

RemiusTA

Dec 26, 2011, 08:12 PM

[SPOILER-BOX]

I win.

As I thought. You AREN'T trying to make sense. It's impossible for you to win after starting such a crazy argument. Especially when this:

Remius from your alot of recent posts is quite clear that you were a terrible Force Go varha mess you up??? i played techer back then too go varha were cake damdiga ever heard of it? i guess not.

Is basically all you guys can do to defend your pathetic position. NO, SERIOUSLY, really stop and think about this. Who the hell can possibly "suck" at such a game? Im sitting here trying to seriously have a fair argument with you, and your only defense to this is to assume I don't know how to play Phantasy Star? Did you seriously just take two quotes from me, knock them COMPLETELY out of context, and say "I WIN"? How old are we now Selphia. You sound like a child.

You know what? Think whatever you want, this is a waste of time. I've had some dumb arguments before, but this competes for the top of the list. This is starting to sound as pathetic as the Brawl fanbase. Not quite...but close enough.

And how the hell am I always at the receiving end of this crap? What am i doing wrong?

You know what, I probably should have just trolled you to death the moment you started this garbage. Im just trying to cut back on being a dipshit for a change, silly me.[/SPOILER-BOX]

I've reported RemiusTA's post to a moderator

ohhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

for being the source of instigation within this topic

Ha, what? Is this your own sadistic way of trolling me, Keilyn? Are you being serious?

Well excuse you, officer. Perhaps you should double check your accusations. Who was the first one in the entire thread to actually throw a personal insult at another? Sounds to me like you're on a bit of a slant, here. All i did was waltz in and calmly address my opinion on the topic. People disagreed, and we continued onward. Bloodflowers first decided to insult my intelligence by googling the word "skill". ooo, burn. I didn't think too much of it. Hell, i didn't even respond to him. I assume he was salty i said the game didn't take much skill to excel at.

And then this :

Your arguments are four years old. Most of them aren't even relevant anymore. You quit the game as a failure: you failed at playing a Techer, you even got owned by Go-Vahras and yet you say the game requires no skill. News Flash: Welcome 2011, soon to be 2012. Techers aren't weak anymore, levelling and tech levelling doesn't take 200 hours anymore. Techers don't cost a fortune to gear up anymore. What are you QQing about? All you're doing is making yourself look like a scrub.

Worse, you've been crying about the same old things since the day I joined these forums and started JP PSU from scratch. I've already come full circle, getting 2 GASed and geared characters, doing everything I've wanted with the game and leaving. And you've done nothing, yet you keep coming back here. It looks to me like there's something in PSU you can't let go of. The only advice I can give for that is to stop being a scrub. Either pick this game up and get good at it, or just move on.

dumb shit happened. I probably didnt even type the word "Techer" or "Force" in the entire thread until that happened. So it's pretty damn obvious this kid has some kind of personal forum vendetta against me -- which i find hilarious, seeing as i don't even know who he is.

Go cry to the mods about that, will you?

Or better yet, go bitch to them everytime I disagree with you a subject. How many times have you reported me now anyway?