PSO2 Death Penalty

[Cayenne]

I haven't seen any info about this.

I know in the first PSO you lost your current weapon, money, and exp (hard times back then), PSO:BB you just lost exp.

Anyone has any real info on PSO2's death penalties?

[Enforcer MKV]

A dock to your personal mission reward? It's enough to spur cooperation, but not so heavy as to be a real hindrance.

*Mere speculation*

[Cayenne]

What if you're just doing a free mission? Like play for fun mode or whatever they call it?

[NoiseHERO]

In PSU you just lost one of your 99 scape dolls but your mission rank would go down if your death brought you back to the lobby.

I think I liked PSPo2 where you could only hold one scape doll at a time, and then your teammates actually had a reason to revive each other when you're getting knocked out during tough battles.

I would say we should get mission ranking back with killing certain amounts of enemies and finishing at a right time. But then everyone would have to justify the whole population being the equivalent of PSPo2's blade destruction spammers. And all of that annoying play perfectly every time or you're scum elitist crap.

When we could just have challenge modes for that.

So I doubt whatever death penalties we have will be much of a big deal this time. But hopefully not retardedly pointless and non-existant like PSU's.

[Cayenne]

I liked how it was in PSO:BB, it made you work hard to not die or else the 10-15 mins of killing enemies for exp was gone. It also kept you from attempting to solo a boss higher than your level.

If the only penalty is lower rank then people wouldn't mind dying as much, there has to be something more than less money after a mission.

Anyone here that played the Alpha ever died and notice something?

[r00tabaga]

I'm w/Michaeru on this one. PSPo2/I had the best system for dying b/c unless you had unlocked the skill to carry an extra doll (+2), you were screwed if nobody had moons. PSU obviously was flawed in regards to how many dolls we could carry. They most likely will use Infinty's formula since they have worked on both PSO2 & Infinity simutaneously and it is the most balanced.

[NoiseHERO]

I also wanted to say an EXP death penalty either wouldn't do much for this kind of game, or just go too far to piss people off.

There's a reason most modern online games took it out.

[PlinderD]

I've never been a fan of mandatory death penalties.

I think the player has to decide how much weight to give to having to run back from town to where you left off and just playing better.

Although I normally prefer running with people I know (and playstyles I like) instead of some random person. So players I usually party with don't kill themselves all day. Though I can see how that can be annoying if I end up with a bunch of folks dropping dead left and right because there's no XP penalty stopping them.

Limited Scapes seems to be the best compromise. Perfect for really serious fuckups, but can't be abused by suicidal players. And no pointless grinding.

[Anon_Fire]

I haven't seen any info about this.

I know in the first PSO you lost your current weapon, money, and exp (hard times back then), PSO:BB you just lost exp.

Anyone has any real info on PSO2's death penalties?

-If you are incapacitated, your individual grade will fall.
-Results are on a character-by-character basis.
-For example, if Mr. A dies, Mr. B's grade will not be affected.
-In short, you don't have to worry about being blamed for giving your party a bad grade!

[Cayenne]

^That's right, one of the first facts that came out, duh.

So is that it, lower ranking?

[Angelo]

You lost EXP in BB? Really? I don't remember ever losing experience in PSO.

[Anon_Fire]

^That's right, one of the first facts that came out, duh.

So is that it, lower ranking?

Um, yes

[RemiusTA]

You lost EXP in BB? Really? I don't remember ever losing experience in PSO.

Me either. In PSO Ep. I&II you simply lost any Meseta you were carrying, but that didnt happen in PSOBB so i figured there was no penalty.

Until i realized for some reason it was taking a tad longer to level than usual....


I dont think the penalty should be too very severe, because I'd hope the game was challenging enough to have you lose more than a few times. And in order for a game to be fairly challenging, it has to let you lose without mortgaging your house.

[kyuuketsuki]

Limit Scapes to 1, lower your individual ranking, sounds good to me.

[Cayenne]

Limit Scapes to 1, lower your individual ranking, sounds good to me.

That sound ok with me, also maybe do what they did in PSO and make scrapes make you have 1 hp in the hardest difficult mode, up the challenge a bit.

[Blueblur]

Limit Scapes to 1, lower your individual ranking, sounds good to me.

While this sounds like a good idea I hate it because soloing becomes so much more dangerous and not very fun. It's something that really bothered me when playing PS Portable 2.

[Cayenne]

True but I never had a problem playing solo in PSO but in the PSU series I did all the time.

[Noblewine]

If I can carry one, two or more scape dolls I don't mind as long as it wont affect the difficulty. The death penalty is okay with me as long as it isn't too brutal like losing exp or gear. I read how it was possible for you to lose gear if you died in pso and I rather not have any morons picking up any rares I've acquired.

[Cayenne]

Oh man, it was bad back in the Dreamcast days, you don't even have to be in the field, just in town and someone joins and insta kills you, drop your current weapon (yes weapons dropped in town) and they take off.

[PlinderD]

So implement a solo mode with lower difficulty.

But really solo play should be challenging. Taking on a dungeon/mission designed to be played by 12 people by yourself? PSO already isn't doing the whole "raid" mentality of WoW, where teams have to be specifically built for different instances.

I don't think they should even lower the difficulty even more to cater to solo players by giving them more ways to not wipe.

[Cayenne]

What they did before was lower the amount of enemies when soloing, that's easier no?

[RemiusTA]

They need to seriously implement a feature that scales the stats/spawns of the enemies based on the number of people in your party.

This way the game won't be overwhelming when soloing but piss easy when in a 4-player party.




I'd rather them to just scale the spawns instead. This'll let the mission be easier without encouraging you to actually just play solo all the time.

[Enforcer MKV]

They need to seriously implement a feature that scales the stats/spawns of the enemies based on the number of people in your party.

This way the game won't be overwhelming when soloing but piss easy when in a 4-player party.




I'd rather them to just scale the spawns instead. This'll let the mission be easier without encouraging you to actually just play solo all the time.

This man. genius. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of this....

Oh, and I say 3 scapes...mostly because I loved love PSZ.

Oh, and I demand at least one over the top difficult mission that swarms you. Those back against the wall situations are what makes games like these great.

[NoiseHERO]

They need to seriously implement a feature that scales the stats/spawns of the enemies based on the number of people in your party.

This way the game won't be overwhelming when soloing but piss easy when in a 4-player party.




I'd rather them to just scale the spawns instead. This'll let the mission be easier without encouraging you to actually just play solo all the time.

This wouldn't be a bad idea so long as there's still elements in the game that promote more team play.

If the whole community is isolated from each other and everyones all "lol fuck you noobs /continues soloing for life" then I'll just have to face palm at people who spend money to play a non-competitive online game just to solo.




And yeah I still like only 1 scape, and to make them more rare. like NOT finding one at the end of every mission but maybe like every 3-5 missions. It's actually more fun when you have to watch your friends backs with star atomizers when the resta is coming slow, or help them back up with moons when the boss is whaling on everyone. instead of just "*trip and dies* oops * gets back up with my scape and continue to swing my bigass sword without effort*"

Should be more like "*PUNCHED IN THE NECK* Nooooo ;o; *Someone almost dies dodgerolling past a barrage of missiles to save you with a moon then you both work together to heal then juggle combo the bastards*

[RemiusTA]

I have to say, alot of my time on PSU was solo. I refused to spam white beast all day, so i went on to play random missions. Sometimes i found people, sometimes i didnt.

But when i got my Force, alot of my time was solo because of the god damn tech leveling. Seed Express was the best mission, but i usually did it in Sleeping Warriors for the possibility of a Psycho board.

[Enforcer MKV]

That's why missions need to have ways of staying relevant to the player base, whether it be mission rewards, in run drops, or any other number of factors. People spammed White beast because they thought it was the most rewarding. If they spread those rewards out, that problem will (hopefully) fix itself.

[maxx69]

1 Scape limit sounds the best. I think not being able to play the rest of the mission (without a res) is punishment enough for dying.

[Tetsaru]

As long as you can't buy stacks of Scape Dolls at nearly every store, and just make them a rare drop, I'd be ok with that. Limiting them to only being able to carry one at a time might also work, but at the same time, I'd be kinda upset to see one drop if I already had one in my inventory and couldn't pass it to another player in my party.

As far as death penalties go, I'm very much against them. Usually, they just result in angering players by impeding their progress and causing more of a time sink in the long run, and games like this are enough of a time sink as it is. If anything, I'd say bring back PSU's grade ranking for missions, and encourage players to cooperate and play to the best of their ability by rewarding them for higher grades (more meseta or exp., offering a cool item or PA, etc.).

[Mitz]

Scape Dolls promote bad play, there should definitely be a strong enough death penalty to want to play optimally at all times, without it being so strong that you play it safe ruining the fun of just going out into the world and killing a bunch of stuff. Falling grades seem to be a very good 'inbetween'.

[Cayenne]

Scape dolls should remain as rare drops, not something you can buy all you want. It defeats the purpose of buying moons when everyone self revives.

If SEGA does that then I'm good with just the mission penalty.

[Mitz]

Well if it's there as a resource, it should be available always and not just as a rare drop.

Instead, give it a cooldown of sorts. Like once an hour you can depend on it's usage.

[PlinderD]

So make Scape Dolls common. If you can use only 1 per run, there's no point making them rare. Or for that matter a drop or item to begin with.

If it were up to me, that single Scape Doll per run would be a built in mechanic instead of an item.

Plus, it'd be interesting to see what TA players do with that single Scape Doll. If they would incorporate that single continue into their tactics like a well timed suicide to position all mobs to shave off a second or two. Kinda amusing.

[Cayenne]

You're thinking too much into how this single item works. Making it a rare worked fine in PSO, why change something that doesn't need to be changed?

[NoiseHERO]

As long as you can't buy stacks of Scape Dolls at nearly every store, and just make them a rare drop, I'd be ok with that. Limiting them to only being able to carry one at a time might also work, but at the same time, I'd be kinda upset to see one drop if I already had one in my inventory and couldn't pass it to another player in my party.

As far as death penalties go, I'm very much against them. Usually, they just result in angering players by impeding their progress and causing more of a time sink in the long run, and games like this are enough of a time sink as it is. If anything, I'd say bring back PSU's grade ranking for missions, and encourage players to cooperate and play to the best of their ability by rewarding them for higher grades (more meseta or exp., offering a cool item or PA, etc.).

PSPo2 you just sent the one you had to your storage.

Would be interesting to just trade it to a teammate though.

PSPo2 destroyed trading in the first place.

@ Mitz it being available always is what ruining PSU's death penalty. It shouldn't be a resource, but a privilege.

[Slidikins]

That's why missions need to have ways of staying relevant to the player base, whether it be mission rewards, in run drops, or any other number of factors. People spammed White beast because they thought it was the most rewarding. If they spread those rewards out, that problem will (hopefully) fix itself.

This right here is why I quit PSU. Well, part of it. Grove of Fanatics A took a nice chunk of time, was challenging way back when, and gave 17 Points for an S rank. It was also pretty far into Neudaiz, but originally it was interesting, fun, and sorta rewarding.

Enter AotI, where White Beast C gives.. what, 75 Points? (I don't recall it being that high, PSUPedia claims it) Not even 20 minutes, half the level requirement, not as much risk.. you get the point... what's that? If you do White Beast A (Lv40 requierment) you can get 164 Points? Yea, screw GoF and everything else from vanilla.

-------------

But on topic: I think there has to be some sort of death penalty. Dropping your weapon in PSO DC was brutal, even more so with PKers. Dropping meseta wasn't too bad except that you couldn't store that much in the bank. In both cases, the game gave you incentive to return to the dungeon. Lowering your grade or subtracting EXP are discouraging; there's no way to undo the damage short of running the whole thing all over again pretty much.

Not that it's an ideal penalty, but random idea: Drop your equipped weapon when you die and return to the lobby/ship. The weapon is tied to your character so no one else can go pick it up off your corpse or anything. You can run back to retrieve it or pay a fee to the Hunter's Guild or something to retrieve it for you. The fee is based on the rarity of the weapon.

[NoiseHERO]

I'll still never understand how people tried to justify running the same mission over and over for hours every day endlessly and not doing anything else in the game... Other than it being the most rewarding...

That'd be like playing the first stage in Super Mario Brothers 2000 times a day, because it's the easiest.

Fortunately I never had to deal with that since I mostly played with friends who around when the game was still fresh and not plagued by that shit. But it sure didn't help in keeping new players with nowhere else to go but being told "WB Is BEST NOTHING ELSE JUST RUN THAT." They don't even last longer than a business week.

[Cayenne]

Drop your equipped weapon when you die and return to the lobby/ship. The weapon is tied to your character so no one else can go pick it up off your corpse or anything. You can run back to retrieve it or pay a fee to the Hunter's Guild or something to retrieve it for you. The fee is based on the rarity of the weapon.

I like that idea (except for the fee), dying can give you a temporary inconvenience. It's like someone knocked over your beer and you're pissed but you happen to be at a kegger, the inconvenient part is that you have to poor your booze back into your cup.

[NoiseHERO]

We already have a death penalty.

Minus bragging rights.

[Ce'Nedra]

You're thinking too much into how this single item works. Making it a rare worked fine in PSO, why change something that doesn't need to be changed?

Can't recall them being that rare in PSO, i found them quite often and the item shop sometimes offered them for sale too (1 a time though). I'd say bring back the system from PSO, where carrying 1 scape takes 1 invetory slot, rather then stacking them like in PSU. A maximum of scapes would be nice too. 10 is to much but i think 3 was to low sometimes in PSP2...till i went EVP build, then 3 was more then enough cause i rarely died. 5 sounds like a fine ammount to me to have as a max on PSO2.

Edit: i'm fine with loosing meseta or anything as long its not my gear or exp. I hated it back in Diablo 2 that i lost exp when getting swarmed like no tomorrow in Hell.

[Cayenne]

Most likely they're gonna stick with what they did in PSP2i, only 1 scape doll at a time and any extra you pick up goes to storage. That with mission penalty = enough to warrant not to die.

[RemiusTA]

i never found Scape Dolls in PSO. I dont know why.


Yeah, i much prefer relying on teammates with moon Atomizers. It makes the game much more fun. One scape doll in inventory at a time.



Forces with Reverser....hmm, Reverser should probably cost like 50 or 80 PP to cast. It should take sacrifice for the force using it, seeing how their TP bar is infinite in this game. Back in PSO, if a force ran out of TP then eventually he couldn't revive you anymore. In this game, all he'll have to do is run away and wait a few seconds.


Although newmans in PSO could technically do the same thing, so wutevah

[Roger Triton]

PSPo2 seems to have the best solution.
I think losing a bunch of meseta would be a good idea as well. Nothing like making someone have to grind for money to make them play better.

[drizzle]

I hope there's no death penalty. Not that I personally mind about losing some EXP or whatever... but in PSO it was hard to get people to do anything but the easy missions -_-

[Mitz]

So make Scape Dolls common. If you can use only 1 per run, there's no point making them rare. Or for that matter a drop or item to begin with.

If it were up to me, that single Scape Doll per run would be a built in mechanic instead of an item.

Plus, it'd be interesting to see what TA players do with that single Scape Doll. If they would incorporate that single continue into their tactics like a well timed suicide to position all mobs to shave off a second or two. Kinda amusing.

This.

Basically the idea that I have.

[NoiseHERO]

This.

Basically the idea that I have.

It was already enough in PSP2 that you could ave them up in your storage. and if you're on a certain mission where you know you'll want as many moons and scapes as you can get you'd treasure them more than just a mandatory purchase from the NPC store.

Trust PSP2's worked fine.

There's such thing as failing to fix something that isn't broken.

And time attacks or challenge modes, you usually have preset items and rely only on your skill and the tactic you used with your class choice then it's 1 scape doll usually included.

Of course PSU's event time attacks with server rankings (like the one from mag) usually were won by whatever over powered setup/glitch abuse.

[BIG OLAF]

I liked PSP2's usage of Scape Dolls more (which is more or less what Plinder said). You get one Scape Doll; one free death. After that, I say you lose a certain percentage of experience gained at the end of the mission you died in, when receiving your clear reward.

It would be bad to make the death penalty too harsh, like in PSO, but I'd like to see something.

[ThePendragon]

If they are going to make the penalties steeper for death, they need to seriously nerf megid and no monster should be able to one-hit you unless you're underleved. Basically, the reason PSU doesn't penalize death is because there are way too many cheap deaths in the game. Remove those, and penalize death, and you have a much more balanced experience.

[NoiseHERO]

If they are going to make the penalties steeper for death, they need to seriously nerf megid and no monster should be able to one-hit you unless you're underleved. Basically, the reason PSU doesn't penalize death is because there are way too many cheap deaths in the game. Remove those, and penalize death, and you have a much more balanced experience.

I remember when there would be like 6 jarbas in a room vomiting megid everywhere...

[Slidikins]

I remember when there would be like 6 jarbas in a room vomiting megid everywhere...NOPE NOPE NOPE

There's a lot of PSU that I don't remember well at all, but the moment you said Jarba I had a very clear and vivid memory of those kill boxes they called a mission.

[RemiusTA]

you guys complain about Jarbas megid, but it was Dambarta that always fucked me over...

[Ce'Nedra]

Not to mention barta spamming Vanda's and these other neudaiz enemies, what they called again, they also appear in light element on white beast.

[NoiseHERO]

I was too busy getting hit by megids when it came time to dodge the dambarta.

and by dodge I mean carefully run the other way and hope my mediocre movement speed was good enough.

Because Sonic Team decided to make this game a hack n slash where you couldn't dodge, but simply run the other way before it was too late.

Because in PSU you can only run the other way, which isn't dodging it's just moving away from something that's about to hit you in your face's balls.

Because if you're in the middle of an attack and an enemy isn't stunned and he's about to smash you in your face's balls, you can't dodge even though you see it coming, you can only stop attacking and get punched in your face's balls.

Or take an arrow to the knee.

Becaus-MY GOD thank god PSP2 and PSZ added dodgerolls, I'll shut up now.

edit: Also @ Ce'Nedra it STILL sucks fighting those things I also can't remember the name of, carriguine was a reskin of it...

[SELENNA]

I hope we won't see mission rankings again but I doubt it. There needs to be a death penalty, maybe just EXP loss like in Blue Burst.

[Cayenne]

lol @ michaeru.

PSU did so many things wrong. It reminds me of how bad the star wars prequels were made, it looked like Star Wars but NOTHING about it is truly Star Wars except the light sabers (not the fights, just the actual weapons).

PSU just took a formula that looked like PSO that (imo) didn't work at all.

[RemiusTA]

It never bothered me how you were pretty much guarnteed to trade hits by some things in PSO, because for the MOST part you could avoid most damage.


In PSU though, the fucking bosses and enemies tend to attack without ANY kind of warning whatsoever, and absolutely no startup time that gives you any chance of avoiding damage.


The worst of that in PSO was from Sinow Zoas, but as long as you kept an eye out for them, you could avoid their critical sneak attacks when you walked into the room.




It's one of the reasons i hated the bosses and shit in PSU. It's like they just randomly decide to smack you with their strongest attacks, and you're never given any kind of warning to move or evade because the camera NEVER CHANGES, it stays the same for every boss fight, and the enemies wouldn't let you get away anyway. Like, the giant enemies in this game are notorious for that. You'll be smacking them, and out of NOWHERE they ram you or stomp you or something. And then do it again.



There was no real strategy to fighting the more powerful enemies in PSU. The enemies fought just like the players did -- just spam a powerful move until you die.


The best enemies in this game though were the Svaltus to me. They were annoying, but at least they had interesting attack patterns. But even THEY were fucking annoying, because if by chance they decided to use their Zelda spin attack and you were hitting them, there was NO way in hell you could possibly get out of range in time to not get hit. It was bull; the WHOLE game played like that.



PSP2 added blocking and dodging, increased the damage of the enemies like tenfold but did NOT improve the AI of any of the enemies (save for De Ragan) so even though you could block there was still like an indistinguishable frame warning before the enemies finally carried out their attack, which probably was gonna take like 40% of your hitpoints without knocking you on the ground or anything.



Most of the worst cases had enemies where hitting them would cause them to flinch, but the flinch animation was indistinguishable from the "rearing up to attack" animation, causing all sorts of dumb confusion. (If im hitting you...how are you rearing up to attack me)

[Cayenne]

Do you know how hard it is to not throw your PSP at the wall because of how cheap De Ragan is?

AHHHHHHHH!

[amtalx]

I never really had much of an issue with the attack patterns from PSU. The A.I. was so basic that while enemies may not have a precursor to their attack, you could easily predict their actions. Then again, I've refused to play any non-ranged classes since PSO, so I avoid most damage to begin with.

[RemiusTA]

Man fuck that dragon, they basically built him around the concept that you are now REQUIRED to just block all his shit.


It's impossible to actually avoid his HOMING MISSLE FIREBALL (?????), the charge attack he will always do at the start of the fight, or most of his other attacks he does without blocking now, because of how ridiculous his new turning radius is.


But, he's like the ONLY boss AI on the fucking game to actually be fair with attack telegraphing. You can see all of his attacks coming, it's just up to you to avoid them. Well, until he starts his ugly flying routines.

[Cayenne]

Man fuck that dragon

HAHAHAHAHAAH, best response ever!

But seriously, I don't know what's worse, taking damage just by touching it when you try to attack or dying because it steps on you 20 times in 5 second without a chance of recovery.

[NoiseHERO]

LOL PSP2 de ragan, I kinda instantly saw him as a door to become overpowered through the rest of the game.

Since he basically trains you to master perfect block, or else he's just keep owning you.

[Omega-z]

lol ??? PSU is too easy to play. Jabra's where easy to fight and dodge, especially if you played PSO before. Every monster had a start up time even a small one. I think ppl got used to just run and 1 hit the the monster to the point of not actually fighting the monster's. LOL at the lolidragon it's so weak it shouldn't be a boss at all. There is 5 ways to dodge that homing fireball form best to least best ways. #1 way is to charge him and get under his ball's with any ranged weapon or high striking PA art( who's running away? ) that too the dragon will not use homing fireball's this way and instead use the normal heat ray. #2 use your meatshield's have them walk in front of you the ball will target the closes thing it can hit. #3 use the rocky ground just go on the other side form the fireball is coming form the fireball will hit the rock instead of you and guess what no running. (the last two does have you move but not to much ) #4 out distance the fireball which is easy to do with little to no running as long you keep your distance at the start of his flying. #5 side to side running the fireball has poor turning if you do it right it will miss you and hit the meatshield's behind you. lol At the rushing dragon. Don't attack any dragon with it's head down head on, That's the start of a possible rush at you plus listen to his yell when does this. Always start off by attacking the sides mostly more closer to his balls this will give you some advantages in combat if he use a tail swing you run to the other side same with the heat ray and fire blast attacks since you can run to side to side under his ball's. the only way he could get you with is his slam but it's weaker form that direction and back stepping to turn around. for a ranger and techer stay to the sides just outside the slam radius and side step any attacks. and for landing on you just get behind him. And oh the De Ragan can bit you too. Actually, Michaeru even in PSP2 dragon is still weak. I saw the footage with it and was like they didn't know how to fight it.

[Enforcer MKV]

I might be burned for this, but I find PSU much more intuitive (control wise) than say....BB. Though the message I seem to see is that it was the opposite. Perplexing...

[Omega-z]

Know what I think there was good points in both (control wise) And I hope Sega learn form both and made the game better.

[NoiseHERO]

lol ??? PSU is too easy to play. Jabra's where easy to fight and dodge, especially if you played PSO before. Every monster had a start up time even a small one. I think ppl got used to just run and 1 hit the the monster to the point of not actually fighting the monster's. LOL at the lolidragon it's so weak it shouldn't be a boss at all. There is 5 ways to dodge that homing fireball form best to least best ways. #1 way is to charge him and get under his ball's with any ranged weapon or high striking PA art( who's running away? ) that too the dragon will not use homing fireball's this way and instead use the normal heat ray. #2 use your meatshield's have them walk in front of you the ball will target the closes thing it can hit. #3 use the rocky ground just go on the other side form the fireball is coming form the fireball will hit the rock instead of you and guess what no running. (the last two does have you move but not to much ) #4 out distance the fireball which is easy to do with little to no running as long you keep your distance at the start of his flying. #5 side to side running the fireball has poor turning if you do it right it will miss you and hit the meatshield's behind you. lol At the rushing dragon. Don't attack any dragon with it's head down head on, That's the start of a possible rush at you plus listen to his yell when does this. Always start off by attacking the sides mostly more closer to his balls this will give you some advantages in combat if he use a tail swing you run to the other side same with the heat ray and fire blast attacks since you can run to side to side under his ball's. the only way he could get you with is his slam but it's weaker form that direction and back stepping to turn around. for a ranger and techer stay to the sides just outside the slam radius and side step any attacks. and for landing on you just get behind him. And oh the De Ragan can bit you too. Actually, Michaeru even in PSP2 dragon is still weak. I saw the footage with it and was like they didn't know how to fight it.

I only read the first three sentences you can't just like, not press enter twice every 3-5 sentences. D:

But did you play that same early PSU?

6 megids and 3 dambartas and 2 poisonous 3 hit kill gas from every direction from too many man jarbas in one room while everything tackles you against you're crappy move speed and their impossible to predict moves?

This was before the entire game got nerfed(and was DEFINITELY made too easy, ESPECIALLY by the time we got to AOI) Are we talking about the same game from it's first few months of release? @_@

Otherwise go ahead and give yourself props I guess... having skill to do something =/= easy.

[Omega-z]

I'm sorry I got carried away with it and hurting your eye's.:) But yeah was also going off Pre-AotI days it was harder but to easy still I had to find groups of monsters 2X+ the level above mine to just make it challenging enough and learning to dodge 6+ Jabra's is not to hard but time consuming tho.

[Ce'Nedra]

I was too busy getting hit by megids when it came time to dodge the dambarta.

and by dodge I mean carefully run the other way and hope my mediocre movement speed was good enough.

Because Sonic Team decided to make this game a hack n slash where you couldn't dodge, but simply run the other way before it was too late.

Because in PSU you can only run the other way, which isn't dodging it's just moving away from something that's about to hit you in your face's balls.

Because if you're in the middle of an attack and an enemy isn't stunned and he's about to smash you in your face's balls, you can't dodge even though you see it coming, you can only stop attacking and get punched in your face's balls.

Or take an arrow to the knee.

Becaus-MY GOD thank god PSP2 and PSZ added dodgerolls, I'll shut up now.

edit: Also @ Ce'Nedra it STILL sucks fighting those things I also can't remember the name of, carriguine was a reskin of it...

This post is full of truth...sounds like PSO as well.

Also i don't mean these things, there are 2 forms of them, its more like a vanda/vahra type enemy, has same build and movement but just spams barta if you don't get close enough, and i know they are a purple reskin in White Beast doing the same but then with that light tech that makes you sleep (dunno the name, never got much into techs on PSU)...ARGH can't stand it i forgot its name.

[Omega-z]

you mean the native Neudaiz creatures Gohmons and there upgraded form Olgohmons. never Had a problem with them to much there butt slow and weak and barta gets grounded out so never had to worry and the light bases attack are weak too from them but don't use tech's on them since they will pretty much half it compare to others. But the fire type are powerful since Pre-AotI day's did 3600k to your char. and acted like megid but faster that they were fast in movement and more aggressive too and they let you know it, then again you can handle those too with time and what there going to do before they do it.

Oh, Michaeru are you talking about PSO day's with the carriguine reskin?

The only hard time was PSO and all online with the end mission's and turrets.

[Fayorei]

I think the PSO2 death penalty is really nice. I barely ever used scape dolls in PSO... until I touched the Vanguard/Braver. The limit of 1 is fine, and I like that if I have an off day of playing, it doesn't screw up my party's mission ranks.

[ShadowDragon28]

the ONLY enemies that really gave my HUmar the most trouble in PSU: AOTI were the megid-spitting plant-like critters and the Carrigeins... All the other's i could handle fine by time my main character was over lvl 100.

[terrell707]

PSU before AoTI was actually pretty fun and challenging. I think i speak for quite a few people when I say that Firebreak and 1up cup were the best events that they had. I still remember the days of when people wouldn't touch Moatoob because it was too hard (that and Forces sucked on that planets :/ ) Then AoTI came out and the Just Attack mechanic effed everything up and made everythin easier. That and Giresta went from having a long cast time to an instant cast time.

But back on topic. PSP2/I had a good death penalty I think. 1 scape doll and just lose some of your rank if you went back to the city. There were actually quite a few times that I played where my party's back was against the wall and we had to really work together.

I also think PSO for Gamecube had a good death penalty. You die and go back to the city, you lose all the money that you are holding. Way to remedy that? Put all your money in storage. Think you're about to hit a hard part of the level? Ryuker or telepipe, store money, get right back into the action.

[FOkyasuta]

Something tells me its gonna be classic, "OH SH**! IM BROKE NOW CUZ I WAS LOADED WHEN I DIED?" with a little bit of,"Oh hey madam, Your unit fell off and i cant steal it. And im outta moons and not to mention, your cash fell out too." twisted in.

Unless of course they pull a PSP2/i on ya. Aye sega.

[amtalx]

Many developers have tried death penalties where you are stripped of money and/or items. More often than not, that mechanic gets removed in any subsequent iterations of the franchise. Its just a little too destructive.

Death penalties genarally come in two forms: time and resources. The most common form of a time penalty is being sent back to a checkpoint, or back to the lobby in the case of an online game. Common forms of a resource penalty are a reduction in a total amount of lives, or a loss of some renewable resource like money or experience.

In the case of PSO (or any other game), I don't think there is any acceptable use of an experience penalty. Its not only taking a resource and the time it takes to replenish it, its taking away progress. A monetary penalty isn't quite as bad, but taking all money the player is holding is not acceptable. It leads to a massive penalty for anyone that's carrying too much money or no penalty for players that carry little (and consequently, unnecessary trips to town to drop off money) . If there is a way to circumvent a death penalty, why bother having one? The best solution I've heard so far is to have a preset amount of deaths that occur without penalty. Anything further results in a trip back to town. The number of deaths could fluctuate based on missing or difficulty setting, but the principle should remain the same.

[Zyrusticae]

As long as the death penalty isn't something as obscenely frustrating as the original Everquest's (i.e. you drop EVERYTHING you have on you when you die and you have to go back to your corpse to pick everything up), I really couldn't care much less.

What's a more pressing issue isn't whether or not there is a penalty for dying, but whether or not dying happens really often to begin with. If it happens as often and as randomly as PSU, there will be issues. I really doubt they're going that route again, however.

Also, scape dolls. I agree with everyone else who said 1 is enough; it was necessary in PSU because of the stupid difficulty (as in stupid difficulty, not high difficulty), but as long as PSO2 avoids the same trap of stupidity, we're good.

[r00tabaga]

As long as the death penalty isn't something as obscenely frustrating as the original Everquest's (i.e. you drop EVERYTHING you have on you when you die and you have to go back to your corpse to pick everything up), I really couldn't care much less.

What's a more pressing issue isn't whether or not there is a penalty for dying, but whether or not dying happens really often to begin with. If it happens as often and as randomly as PSU, there will be issues. I really doubt they're going that route again, however.

Also, scape dolls. I agree with everyone else who said 1 is enough; it was necessary in PSU because of the stupid difficulty (as in stupid difficulty, not high difficulty), but as long as PSO2 avoids the same trap of stupidity, we're good.
Unless you unlock the ability to carry an extra Doll (like Infinity), one is enough. And I like the idea of losing all items equiped in say, PvP, but not normal missions. That's no fun.

[Enforcer MKV]

I still say that you should be able to carry slightly more, though I like the idea of unlocking more.

Say for example, you start off with one, and then, somewhere along the line, you have to put points into your skill tree (since they're in now, apparently) to unlock the ability to carry an extra one. Now, in my mind, since you'd be sacrificing a point in your skill tree, that it should be decreased to only a single extra, for a limit of two, down from my original proposed three. I just don't like only having a single extra live, but having two or three? Yeah, I'm alright with that.

Besides, if you're a fighter and get grabbed by one of those larger monsters, you might just be thankful for an extra live....

Actually, there's an idea, why not give different classes different number of scape dolls? It makes sense for the classes that are more prone to injury to have more. (while I know forces are weak, I'd say Hunters get the most. Though, I haven't been able to really compare the classes to know if this is a good idea or not.)

[Macman]

Fair penalty: Meseta loss that linearly progresses upward with your level.
100 meseta at lv1
1000 at lv10
etc etc

I mean... it's gotta cost SOMEONE some money to drag your ass back to the ship and revive you.

[Fayorei]

As long as the death penalty isn't something as obscenely frustrating as the original Everquest's (i.e. you drop EVERYTHING you have on you when you die and you have to go back to your corpse to pick everything up), I really couldn't care much less.

What's a more pressing issue isn't whether or not there is a penalty for dying, but whether or not dying happens really often to begin with. If it happens as often and as randomly as PSU, there will be issues. I really doubt they're going that route again, however.

Also, scape dolls. I agree with everyone else who said 1 is enough; it was necessary in PSU because of the stupid difficulty (as in stupid difficulty, not high difficulty), but as long as PSO2 avoids the same trap of stupidity, we're good.

I absolutely agree with this.:) I think the whole LOSE EVERYTHING mechanic used to be the stand-by thing with Everquest... that got transferred to other games like Runescape and a ton of other MMOs. Playing online in the DC days must have been hectic with the PK hacking and all. I'll never know, but it's still good to know since I have the old PSO v.2 for DC that I got last summer along with the console.

As long as Megid exists, I can't help but feel there will be a couple cheap deaths. But unless there's 10 of those dudes in a room you can usually memorize how to avoid that garbage.

It'll be interesting if they keep the 1-scape doll limit, and in a good way. Most online gmaes nowadays have been nerfed and a little bit dumbed down. While that's fine in itself, I kinda miss a challenge. :)

[D-Inferno]

As long as Megid exists, I can't help but feel there will be a couple cheap deaths. But unless there's 10 of those dudes in a room you can usually memorize how to avoid that garbage.
Megid isn't going to be OHKO like in PSO. PSU and on has it simply doing damage like other attack techs.

[Cayenne]

I mean... it's gotta cost SOMEONE some money to drag your ass back to the ship and revive you.

HAHAHAHAHAH that got me so much!!!!

[NoiseHERO]

Loli nurses behind the counter that you can't see because they're lolis are the ones that drag you back.

[Cayenne]

I still say you should drop your weapon (where no one can pick it up but you) because who would want to lose their weapon? Who would want to die?

That will make you play better, it made me play better back in PSO V.1.

[Enforcer MKV]

well, the problem with this is that it's a bit.....pointless. There's no real risk if no one else can pick it up. It's just "oh, I died, give me a second to pick my weapon back up, guys." Actually, this could be used to grief people as well, come to think of it.

No, I don't think that dropping "anything" is a good system. I'd rather just mess up my rank.

[terrell707]

I'm actually surprised no one else suggested this but since mags are coming back, why don't they just make it the same in PSO with them? Everytime you die, your MAG thinks you are a B**** and loses some of its affection, or synchro, with you. Nothing major, actually makes sense, and who cares? You still get your stat boost lol.

[Cayenne]

^Forgot about that, wonder is SEGA will remember that feature, that's IF Mags work the same as before.


well, the problem with this is that it's a bit.....pointless.

Yeah, I should drop that idea for good lol

[Macman]

I'm actually surprised no one else suggested this but since mags are coming back, why don't they just make it the same in PSO with them? Everytime you die, your MAG thinks you are a B**** and loses some of its affection, or synchro, with you. Nothing major, actually makes sense, and who cares? You still get your stat boost lol.PSZ does this.

[JC10001]

I'm against anything that punishes players for just playing the game be it death penalties, broken weapons, lost exp, or whatever. Games are supposed to be fun and being punished isn't fun. Everyone dies. It is part of playing the game. I don't care how good you are. It happens. Its unavoidable therefore there should not be a punishment associated with it.

Having said that, I would not have a problem if there were SPECIFIC MISSIONS where no party members can die, or only 2 deaths were allowed (and the 3rd would end the mission in failure). It would be cool if there were missions where the party was in a confined space and needed to survive for a certain amount of time to finish the level and defeat a certain number of enemies to get a better rank. So called 'survival' type missions.

For regular missions, rank should be dependent on the amount of time taken to complete it and the number of enemies killed. If someone dies 5x but they still manage to beat the level in 3 minutes or whatever and kill everything then they should still get S IMO.

[amtalx]

Death is a result of the player's failure to observe the rules. Death is always avoidable. Every player encounters it at some point or another because everyone makes mistakes.

Rank based on time is rarely a good idea when different classes have varying damage potential. If Hunters have the highest DPS, you'd be punishing every other class through no fault of their own. I suppose it's possible to tier the S rank time based on class, but that introduces an unnecessary level of complexity for something that should be relatively simple. At least a death penalty is always the fault of the player.

[PlinderD]

Seeing as the focus of PSO2 is online play, I don't see how ranking based on time is going to be so unfair.

Most people only go for the minimum requirements needed to achieve the highest rank. And I doubt the devs are going to base everything on the highest possible level of skill and character strength.

Let's say Hunters do have better DPS and have a bigger contribution to making run times faster on average. So maybe, given 12 players, 10 Hunters + 2 Forces will have an easier time getting the highest rank compared to say 6 Rangers + 6 Forces. No big deal. Provided it won't be next to impossible for a 6RA6FO group to get an S Rank.

Maybe for people going for the fastest possible time, sure that's when stuff like that matters. But yeah they're not going to be the majority. So as long as the requirements for the highest rank isn't unreasonable, I don't see how using run time is going to be a bad thing.

[Enforcer MKV]

Er....yes and no, Amtalx. While yes, I agree that death usually occurs due to errors made on the part of the player, it's not due to them not following the "rules". More so, a lack of ability to cope with the situation or inability to gauge an enemy's strength well could be the culprit. Though, that's splitting hairs...

Your second section I agree with, though. I don't like time based ranks. I, for one, believe that being thorough and making sure that things are done right is better than having them finished quickly. Also, basing it off of the class just makes things more complex than they have to be, as was already stated.

[terrell707]

For me personally, the reason why I'm pretty fond of death penalties (as long as they aren't too strict) is once a death usually happens or a full party wipe out happens, it allows for the dedicated members of the team to come up with a new strategy, or plan out how they are going to tackle the obstacle that is halting progress. Even if it is something simple as failing the mission or a timer in which you have to wait for before you can revive, it usually pushes players away from just rushing into a mission with no preparation and/or plan what so ever.

We already know that if you die and return to the city (or is it if you die at all?) you lose part of your mission rank. I guess until we learn what the mission rewards are (there are no mission points right? since everything is tied to your character level.), is when we will find out just how steep this penalty is.

[Fenn777]

What about penalizing players with reduces drop rates for rares? It makes surviving a difficult area more rewarding and discourages death, but the penalty isn't as frustrating as losing what you've already earned.

[PlinderD]

I, for one, believe that being thorough and making sure that things are done right is better than having them finished quickly.

From what I've seen in many online games. People who just simply rush to achieve the highest time usually end up screwing things up. At least in high level play.

Ensuring that things are done right is a huge part of finishing things quickly.

And the process of cutting run time most often begins with the "safest" route then taking out things that seem unnecessary. Like the first run buffs are recasted before every encounter. In the second run, they cut it down to every other encounter. etc.

Fine tuning a properly done run is how fast run times are achieved.

[Enforcer MKV]

I understand that, but what happens when all your friends are offline and you want to do a mission that others don't like? *cough* anything besides white beast *cough*

Is it right for that player, who literally "can't" find other players to run the mission, to get a reduced grade simply because he can't find help from other players who are so concerned with maximizing their results, and can't complete the mission fast enough, even though the player managed to complete the run solo without dying?

And that is a very real and clear issue, and it does happen - it's called PSU.

[PlinderD]

So basically you want missions that are designed for multiple players but can be run by a single player (given a character that is within the suggested level range) who can still aquire a high rank in it?

I think there's a huge problem right there.

Besides there's an alternative solution already provided for this problem and that's dynamic difficulty.

[Legato Bluesummers]

It honestly baffles me that some people would actually welcome losing Experience when you die. That's like making 2-3 hours of your life a complete and utter waste because of one slip up. No thanks.

[Fayorei]

Megid isn't going to be OHKO like in PSO. PSU and on has it simply doing damage like other attack techs.

Oh THANK FREAKING GOD.

I never got far in PSU honestly. I played at the beginning right at launch, got to an okayish level, got bored. I think the last time I played was in 2006-7, so my memory is hazy on that game.:)

[BIG OLAF]

Megid isn't going to be OHKO like in PSO. PSU and on has it simply doing damage like other attack techs.

I think you mean "PSP2 and on", because oh lordy-lordy, Megid most certainly did OHKO you in PSU. A lot. All it did in PSP2 was virus, which was fine.

[Enforcer MKV]

So basically you want missions that are designed for multiple players but can be run by a single player (given a character that is within the suggested level range) who can still aquire a high rank in it?

That isn't what I want at all. I want Sega to do something that keeps people from herding into one mission all the time, if possible, and I also want to not worry about a timer determining whether I get an S rank or not. I don't like soloing. I "hate" it, in fact. But it's better than running the same mission overandoverandoverandoverandover because that's what over 95% of the population thinks has the best everything.

I don't like being timed. And, personally, I like the fact that mission reward is tied to individuals now, instead of groups. Everyone is responsible for their own rank, but you can still help others, through healing, engaging the enemies, etc.

Now, since this thread is about Death penalty and not mission structure, I suggest we both get back to the topic at hand. Please?

[Taijutsu-Joshua]

It honestly baffles me that some people would actually welcome losing Experience when you die. That's like making 2-3 hours of your life a complete and utter waste because of one slip up. No thanks.

That's just dumb. Who thought of that idea?

[Cayenne]

That's just dumb. Who thought of that idea?

That's the original PSO death penalty along with dropping your current weapon, upsetting your relation with your mag and losing money. Why do you think there's a bank in the game in PSO BB when you can hold all the money you want on your character without any worry of losing it?

Maybe I keep saying exp lost is because i keep watching the alpha videos and I don't remember seeing anyone die, it looks real easy from the beginning unlike PSO where 1 hit at lvl 1 knocks you down and down to half your HP then the second blow is death, LVL 1! That game was hard but after a few levels it got real fun knowing you can take a hit without being knocked over.

If PSO2 is gonna be easy to begin with, I believe you deserve to lose exp if you die but very little like 2 or 3 enemies worth of exp, not 2-3 hours of work. In a MMO stance yeah losing exp is very stupid because you're fighting 1 enemy at a time but here you're killing 5-10 baddies a minute on average (maybe more), killing is fairly easy to do.

That's my view on exp lost, most likely my last time I'll talk about it.

[amtalx]

Er....yes and no, Amtalx. While yes, I agree that death usually occurs due to errors made on the part of the player, it's not due to them not following the "rules". More so, a lack of ability to cope with the situation or inability to gauge an enemy's strength well could be the culprit. Though, that's splitting hairs...


If its the factor of randomness (criticals, stun lock, etc.) your talking about, then I see what you mean. However, in an ideally designed game, that random factor should never be the cause of a player death. Even if the player has a "lack of ability to cope with the situation or inability to gauge an enemy's strength" that is still the fault of the player as long as they were provided with the knowledge to properly equip themselves at some point prior.

[NoiseHERO]

Isn't that when it stops being an RPG and becomes a boring math formula...

[FOkyasuta]

If the death penalty formula might be that grand, Doesn't it make you wonder what other formula's might come into play? But jeah, If its that complicated dunno how people would react to it.

If it was real.

[amtalx]

Isn't that when it stops being an RPG and becomes a boring math formula...

Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but all video games are a formula. Video games are bound by their programming language, which is in turn bound by basic math. There is certainly a significant factor of abstraction, but even the most complex games boil down to a discrete set of rules.

[NoiseHERO]

Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but all video games are a formula. Video games are bound by their programming language, which is in turn bound by basic math. There is certainly a significant factor of abstraction, but even the most complex games boil down to a discrete set of rules.

The dice may have turned into a random number generator. But if videogames especially RPGs are coming from board games. Then not everything will have a perfect outcome even if you always make the proper choices by following the formula.

Usually the game will be designed for you to have a full party, up to date stats, enough money for recovery items when needed-then a stray megid blind sides your party while a monster is in the middle of comboing you and you're dead. Or in the board game's case... YOU GOTO JAIL!

The formula shouldn't be to follow the rules and then you go through the game perfectly. It should be used to make things more fun and interesting. So even following it perfectly you never know what'll blow up in your face when it comes to roll the dice.

Just like the dice of life...

/inhales the smell of my coffee

So yeah we should get "punished" for playing the game basically. But it can't be something discouraging, just something that make you want to increase your chances of survival. I think mission rank, embarassingly slowing down your team, realizing that if you die "here" everything else after is gonna toss you like a ragdoll, and a moon atomizer is fine.

[Cayenne]

^That's it!

You die, you go to jail!

/Thread

[PlinderD]

PSO Megid is an example of bad game design.

OHKO is a horrible game mechanic unless there's ample preparation allowed for it. There are lots of ways for a game to reduce the effect of random numbers (not screw the players out of nowhere)

Example

Boss A has 10 attacks, given certain %age ranges of HP, he can perform any 6 of these 10 attacks. However each attack has a windup time. Strong attacks will have a recognizable windup animation unique to that attack and there'll be a backswing animation too. Weak attacks will come out of nowhere, but will have a backswing.

So the player can prepare for strong attacks (dodge, position, whatever) and can ensure that they have enough HP to survive a weak attack (healing during backswings)

Despite the boss having randomized attacks, it still allows the player to prepare for each attack.

So if the player dies to this boss, then it's completely their fault.

Now let's say you have Boss B

Boss B has 10 attacks, he uses all of them. One attack is an AoE attack that hits every character, it has a 50% chance of OHKO. No windup animation. Unblockable unless the character rolls. One attack is an incredibly fast attack that deals a huge amount of damage, it can be dodged but only if you dodge 1 second before it comes out. And all his other attacks have no backswing.

If the player loses to this boss, then it's most likely the game's fault.

Also video games aren't about simulating life perfectly. If I wanted a game that could screw me at any random point in time, I'll go to a casino.

[Cayenne]

PlinderD, I dub thy Sir Remius II, now rise!

[Neith]

Megid had a 'warning' on almost everything that used it in PSO. Lilies would rear back (and if a Lily was pointed at you without pecking, you knew it was going to spit Megid soon), Sorcerers had to raise the yellow crystal, Deldepths had to stay upright for a bit, and so on. You could always tell when something was about to throw a Megid at you and dodge it. Possible exception with Zol Gibbons (theirs came out very quick, but the projectile itself was a very low level one, if you got killed by that it's your own fault).

If enemies are giving a warning and you're still dying to Megid, you need to keep your eyes open more. The only place OHKO happened on a regular basis was Tower, and it's not like you ran Tower for experience anyway.

Maybe it's just me but I never had a problem with Megid. If anything, it kept you on your toes.

[Omega-z]

^I agree with Neith, Megid was easy enough to be avoided thru animation, sound, aura or just knowing.

[PlinderD]

Ah right, my memories of PSO are a little fuzzy.

[ThePendragon]

Best penalty would be, reduced rare drop rate. If you die with a scape, your drop rate is reduced 5%. If you die without one, it's dropped by 10%.

[NoiseHERO]

But this is JARBA megid, remember? PSU = no attack warnings OR a proper way to dodge other than running the other way. and enemy megids could still OHKO till it was nerfed, (along with the rest of the game being too easy afterward)

Where'd PSO come from? @_@

[amtalx]

It seems there are a lot of fuzzy memories regarding Megid. Jarbas rear back and spread their arms before firing anything off. There is enough time to dodge it unless you are in the middle of an elaborate PA animation. That's a bit of a risk for fighters, but ranger and force mobility isn't as restricted after attacking.

[Slidikins]

you guys complain about Jarbas megid, but it was Dambarta that always fucked me over...@amtalx - It was the combination that makes us complain. Dambarta was pretty strong back then as well IIRC, so everyone would be focused on staying out of it. And the moment you step out, random Megid from across the map taps your shoulder and takes you out. That alone wouldn't be a problem. Teammates can revive you, scape dolls, what have you. You get back up and continue. Unfortunately in that game those random deaths can cost you (and your team) ranks and just ends up fostering hatred for the mission.

You're right though; Jarba's did broadcast their use of Megid. Unfortunately the rooms were a bit large and confusing with 6 people using PAs and just as many monsters attacking that it was hard to keep track of each Jarba at all times, and that one in your blind spot never failed to hit you.

[NoiseHERO]

Yeah but that warning was before any attack, and when the monsters are easily bunched up and you're in the middle of a rising strike jump attack...

/roll over and die

[amtalx]

It sounds more like you're taking issue with how many threats you have to juggle, rather than dangerous attacks not being telegraphed properly. Those scenarios just require a little more caution. Aggression is justifiably punished.

[Cayenne]

I'd say a good 95% of deaths I had playing PSU was from being hit multiple times in 1 sec without a single chance of recovery. No amount of skill, experience nor caution could save you from that.

[Omega-z]

I don't understand why ppl had ahard time with Jarba's, Megid, Dambarta .... being hit multiple times even in PSU vanilla was still to easy, just change your tactics. Keeping track of 8+ Jarba's are not hard even with ppl in the party. Try doing that with Jarba's that 2X+ your strength and doing like 50 dmg maximum back to them with the whole room filled with them and not dying once. and anyway just add some Sta/End and most to all death was avoided.

PSO was harder then PSU with Megid's death rate. There pretty much nothing you could do to stop it other to increase your dark resistance to it and then you still can die in 1-3 hits; In PSU that rate was much easier to deal with, take the dmg out completely and the SE doesn't work at all or high enough Sta/End that or watch what your doing and all the monster at the same time and learn to manually evade the attack. there are times that you can't but really who's fault is that Surely not the monster's.

We all make mistakes but we grow form are falls to overcome our difficulties. I actually like old school PSU to AotI since it was harder and even with the easymode Fansevice added to it I balance my char not to beat the monster in one hit but to actually fight the enemy how it's supposed to be. It's surprising how much more depth the game has when you do this, there so much thing's ppl over look when you do missions.

At any rate I agree that death Penalties should make one lose % in end mission rewards and end drop rate to the person and not the group, and if they didn't have scapes then 20% of there measta with a reduced EXP rate for the duration of the mission. We need more challenge not easysauce.

[NoiseHERO]

The monster had 2 of the strongest pre-"fanservice'd" nerfed spells in the game, and it wasn't even the hardest difficulty where they acted harder than most of the bosses in the game.

Sure if you tried hard enough and if you were patient it was doable, fine. But it was an unnecessary pain in the ass. Saying it's easy and that people should be punished for not being able to do it... Whaddaya want a flame war?

[PlinderD]

The EXP and Drop Rate loss make sense but might cause some problems.. Equips, EXP already earned, Meseta already earned shouldn't be taken way.

But the EXP and Drops the player still yet has to earn is more than fair game as a penalty. Although this might lead to people just quitting the mission and starting it all over again. I mean if your EXP and Drop rate are already compromised, there may be instances where just redoing the mission will give better rewards. It's going to be annoying for players who haven't died that their party members are leaving one by one.

[amtalx]

I'd say a good 95% of deaths I had playing PSU was from being hit multiple times in 1 sec without a single chance of recovery. No amount of skill, experience nor caution could save you from that.

I wouldn't blame the game for that. I had my share of light speed gangbangs too, but only because I was more concerned with my offense than my defense. Those situations are entirely avoidable. Will relying on mobility weapons and PAs with short recovery periods make for excruciating clear times? Yes, but that is the cost of caution, just like speed is the reward for aggression. Wrestling with that risk vs. reward is part of the game.

[Omega-z]

you make a good point PlinderD about the player trying redo the mission, But then Sega could just make it , that the player can't do another mission until he finishes the previous one. That would require the player to tough it out for mistakes that the player earned.

but yeah your right that exp and measta already earned should not be touched or the group. But the individual progress is slowed by less chance of drops, less rate of exp and amount of measta earned later on. But this would be after like 1-3 scapedolls. So, still giving the player a chance of not getting the worse cast out come.

^I totally agree with you amtalx

I wouldn't blame the game for that. I had my share of light speed gangbangs too, but only because I was more concerned with my offense than my defense. Those situations are entirely avoidable. Will relying on mobility weapons and PAs with short recovery periods make for excruciating clear times? Yes, but that is the cost of caution, just like speed is the reward for aggression. Wrestling with that risk vs. reward is part of the game.

[NoiseHERO]

Yeah unless you guys all rolled rangers/ranged weapons then forgot about it. 90% of my memory in the jarba hell room consists of "ATTACK ANIMATION TOO SLOW, GONNA DIE"

If the general flow of the game is grinding the same mission over and over, pecking the enemy for survival takes too long, to the point where you may as well get punished for playing the game "properly."

But whatever, screw it, over powered jarbas aren't coming back. So there's no issue anyway.

edit: or jarba death rooms (The one that was mostly the issue, otherwise they were just challenging enemies-meh)

[pikachief]

i miss OP Jarbas and the OP fire olghomons of Fire Break :/

[amtalx]

i miss OP Jarbas and the OP fire olghomons of Fire Break :/

I agree. The days of running Sealab were great. The enemy variety and resistances required class diversity and awareness from parties. People loved to bitch about the bees and Jarbas, but I thought it made for a good challenge. A well equipped party with a good strategy could make short work of everything.

[Macman]

Megid had a 'warning' on almost everything that used it in PSO. Lilies would rear back (and if a Lily was pointed at you without pecking, you knew it was going to spit Megid soon), Sorcerers had to raise the yellow crystal, Deldepths had to stay upright for a bit, and so on. You could always tell when something was about to throw a Megid at you and dodge it. Possible exception with Zol Gibbons (theirs came out very quick, but the projectile itself was a very low level one, if you got killed by that it's your own fault).I want to hear you justify Mericarol and co. in Ultimate.

[Cayenne]

What you see as a challenge, Rock Eastwood and I see it as just plain annoying.

[Ce'Nedra]

I want to hear you justify Mericarol and co. in Ultimate.

That's no megid though. More like instant death beam no matter what as it ignores everything. I remember seeing a hacked Racast with 63k hp still die from it in 1 shot lol.

They didn't give that much of a warning though...Only thing you could do was get up close, to end up getting slashes or "posion clouded" which is also instant kill.

One of the most annoying enemies ever in PSO...specially as a non-ranger fleshie.

[Omega-z]

Macman, Mericarol had an attack animation and sound with it's attack? They weren't that hard until you got online they increased everything.

pikachief, yeah those where the day's I miss those guys. I remember ppl on random parties where like "crap how you live so long without dying" I tell them I use everything against them. It sure was fun.:)

Cayenne, That's true that they were annoying but that's it they weren't hard those are two different things. there were far more annoying monster in PSO.

lol there will always be annoying monster otherwise it would be like a kids game with mickey mouse. I can just see it now that the Rock Bear in PSO2 will be the new annoying monster and ppl are going to cry OP so that they nerf it too to make it the same problem PSU got.

Ce'Nedra you can see the attack animation for that beam and was dodge-able and the other was super easy to tell since it would go up like the lilies and you turn up the sound it gives you a 5-10 sec beat before it blew up. The same as the four legged robots in PSU that blew up same tactic mechanic.

[Ce'Nedra]

Oh yeah that cloud was dodgeable, but not if your using the last combo of the double saber animation or bussy fighting Il'l Gill's/Delbiters and they sniper you in your back with either of the instant kill attacks. I've hunted a Sealed J-Sword and a Real Nei Claw in towers and it was hell, the moment i got both drops i decided to never run towers again, at least not in PW4...

[Cayenne]

I'm not talking about annoying monsters, I'm talking about annoying ways to die and this past week playing PSP2i that's the ONLY way I died.

I would love to die because an enemy straight out kicked my ass because it's powerful, not cheap.

Anyways, I'll be back when more info is released, I'm on here too much lol.

[Omega-z]

Ah, Tower that brings back memories. Those missions are so much fun doing both east and west. Offline was easier but still gave you a challenge. But online was a beast the monster's took longer to kill because of stats and had to use more caution. But that isn't the problem as much as placement on the map, since the placement of monster made it harder to deal with.

annoying way to die, hmm a powerful attack like megid that's been in pretty much every PS game an annoying attack maybe, I guess they could just make it a boss only attack. Bombs/ Turrets/smashers there traps so I don't know if they count. Stun/freeze hmm they could make stun like PSO days and not make you attack at all, but you could still run away. Freeze will have to stay the same there has to be an immovable spell/ability.

There will always be cheap attacks if not it could get to easy. Take RockBear for one, with it's killergrip attack that K.O.'s you in 1 hit that can be called a cheap attack. It's not going away it's there to keep your guard up.

[NoiseHERO]

I'd still rather break my head off getting thrown at a tree's arm and flinging into a pound full of rappies, than just get machinegun megid'd...

[JC10001]

Has anyone here played White Knight Chronicles? That game has a great formula for determining rank.... it is based on points. You get points for killing creatures and you get points for how fast you complete the mission (sometimes, depends on the mission), or by doing various tasks (depends on the mission and all are unique to the mission).

There are no death penalties but certain missions can be failed if anyone dies, or if a certain number of players die, or if the party is wiped out during the boss battle. The only penalty for death is that you have to start back at the beginning if you die and someone doesn't raise you, meaning you lose time because you have to re-traverse the level.

There are 6 different classes in the game and the time bonuses are structured such that any combination of players can get the biggest time bonus. There isn't anything complicated about it. People who say "6 hunters would get the bonus easier than 6 forces" are over-thinking it. The times are reasonable. As long as you aren't farting around you will get the best time bonus no matter what combination of players there is. Party size is a different matter altogether. 4 players WILL have a harder time getting the best time bonus then 6 players no matter what their character types are. This is how the game encourages players to team up with others because the rank awarded at the end also determines the drops at the end.

To get an S often times you can either kill everything, finish the mission quickly, or do something in between.