FFXIII-2

[Serephim]

My Verdict for those interested:


- You bought XIII, thought it was fun for the most part, but a complete letdown in terms of Final Fantasy standards:
- Go ahead and buy this one, it's eons better than XIII was.

- You bought XIII, hated everything about it, complain on forums and probably didn't even beat it
- Don't waste your time, you'll probably find a trillion things to complain about that anyone who liked it didn't even notice or cared about.

- You didn't buy XIII, or even play XIII
- You can probably still buy this and get by. Knowledge of the first game is not required to enjoy it, but just in case you think it is, the game does a wonderful job of explaining everything that happened.


SIDENOTE

Honestly, XIII was a decent videogame, but it was a terrible RPG experience. Aside from a few awesome battles (which is all XIII was), i probably wouldn't even recommend anyone to play that game after beating it. It was great on first playthrough, but by the time i beat it, i was sick of it, and i dont think i'll ever play it again until i completely forget the story.

That said, i do not think it is mandatory to play XIII before XIII-2. The game doesn't focus much on any main characters of XIII to begin with.


- You didn't buy XIII, but hate everything about it (????)
- Once again, don't even waste your time, this probably wont make you feel better.


- I played the demo.
- I really don't know what to say. I personally played the demo, and had feelings of "meh" mixed in with lots of feelings of "okay this is actually pretty fun." If you played the demo and felt the game was still lacking something, then you should probably ask people who feel the same as you. I had more fun in the first 10 minutes of this game than i did with the demo, though.


----------simple breakdown-----------
*I do not do stars, or numbers, because only idiots rate videogames like these with number averages. They're like, the god of obvious bias. I dont even understand how people still use them, to be honest.*



Music:
Hated one or two tracks (RANDOM HEAVY METAL BOSS MUSIC YEAH), Loved the rest. So for the most part, I loved the OST.

Gameplay:
Vast improvement over XIII in pretty much every way. A few of the environments were pretty fun to run through. You'll also get a few actions to expand your interaction with the areas. Puzzles were fun. Some people complain about specific ones; unfortunately, games stopped teaching kids critical thinking skills years ago, so i guess they forgot how to cope. Jumping was added in very smoothly. Combat was simplified but kept all its strategy.


Game is pretty easy for the most part, but a few bosses will probably make you restart a couple times. But Final Fantasy has NEVER been known for difficulty, so i dont know why people feel the need to complain about this.


**There are many people who claimed that FFXIII was also "braindead easy", but I have yet to see how anyone could possibly come to such a conclusion, seeing as that game ranged from highly difficult to fucking frustrating in my playthrough. I assume those are people who never beat the game, because past a certian point in XIII, shit gets real. This game was not that bad, but it has its moments. **


Replayability:

Uh, im not really sure. I've never, ever been one to 100% videogames, but i actually feel like I may want to actually 100% this game eventually. Its impossible to see everything without beating the game first, but it IS possible to visit time periods that aren't even mandatory to the main story during regular playthrough. I'd say the game was built on replayability though, because the main story is only about 25 hours long.


Presentation / graphics :

It's Final Fantasy. It looks amazing, sounds amazing, and the special effects are always top notch. This is pretty much standard stuff, even if you hate the certain entry this stuff stays pretty constant. That said the graphics are probably a bit lower than the original XIII, but the environments and interaction with the level is easily 20 times that of the original.


Overall:

Better than XIII, thats a given. I wont compare it to other games in the series because Final Fantasy is a dangerously opinionated IP, but to be completely honest, i think i enjoyed this as a VIDEO GAME more than, oh say, Final Fantasy 8. While the story isn't perfect, no videogame story ever is (seriously.), and while it was a 25 hour main story, it kept me intrigued pretty much the whole way.

But if you're looking for some kind of literary masterpiece, you might as well turn your ass around right now. In fact, you probably want to just stay away from RPGs in general.

[blace]

Not a very descriptive post about the game, could've posted it here: http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185097

I'll leave my two cents, it's an improvement over XIII, but it still feels like its lacking and the story itself sidetracks a lot. The ability to travel through time and visit timelines and their alternate realities really makes for a confusing story.

[Serephim]

I didn't post in that thread because it's garbaged up with a bunch of dumb spectulation of crap before the game was even released. This is a new thread for people who actually...you know, bought the full game.




This game probably has the absolute least confusing Time Travel storyline out of any game with a time travel storyline i've ever played. After Blazblue, im estatic that i can actually follow whats going on here with a bit of common sense an deductive reasoning. It's straightforward, the characters do a pretty great job directly explaining whats going on in the cutscenes, the Historia Crux visibly tells you what year you're in, and if all that fails, you still have the Datalog to explain everything farther.


My two cents:


the story is eons better than i thought it was gonna be, the game is an improvement over FFXIII in almost every way possible, and it has a decent amount to offer despite being only about 25 hours long in a straight playthrough. (27 hours for me to beat it on a regular playthrough. Still have tons of stuff to unlock though.)


I didn't expect much from the story seeing as it's a Final Fantasy spinoff AND a Time Travel plot in one package, but to be completely fair it was executed well enough for the time they put into it. Everything they added is a grave improvement over the first one. It had its "wow really" moments in the storyline, but for the most part, it was intriguing.


Most importantly though, I actually liked Serah and Noel. They didn't annoy me. Like, at all. Which is not what i was expecting at all, judging from how characters that look like Serah typically act in JP games and anime.





first post updated with actual thoughts

[Keilyn]

I actually did like FFXIII. Here are the things I said about it before:

1. The game was designed from the ground up for HD resolution, which takes a lot more rendering and the transitions in that game were pretty smooth.

2. Roleplaying Games are all about Story-Telling. Linear or non-linear play does not matter if the storytelling is off and messed up. FFXIII did tell its story very well and actually broke several rules of storytelling and produced a good effect from it.

3. The cast of characters was fresh. You didn't the usual "1 person from each culture in a party" and instead they paired characters up in either attitude/contrasting effects"

Now my only real gripe about the entire game was the following:

"I couldn't stand how FFXIII would force you to beat the final boss in order to reach the last crystarium level (or whatever it was called.) Now I would understand if skills/abilities were held hostage due to something like "an epilogue" but FF13 had no epilogue and being told 'you can't unlock everything before the final boss, but most kill the final boss' to me was a really bad idea"

FFXIII-2

Rather than tell people anything about the game. The game is better than FFXIII, but FFXIII can't be dismissed because if you want to go through an RPG experience you have two parts to go through and FF13-2 is better than what FFX-2 was as far as Sequels go. In short, you can take the two games and go back to back and that will take some time.

Also, it had been stated several time that content will be added to FF13-2 in the future too.

Well that's my take on it.

[NoiseHERO]

I don't know...

How you guys find these characters...

Likeable...

There's PSU characters I liked more than all the FF13 characters... D:

[Split]

XIII-2's combat and character development are extremely fun and VASTLY improved over XIII's. Its story, however, is an incomprehensible mess of shit. Also, I'll never forgive it for being an obvious attempt to make money back on the financial black-hole that was SE's "Crystal Tools" engine, nor will I ever forgive it for not being Versus-XIII

[blace]

I find the characters to be to generic like anything you see in Japan.

[Kent]

2. Roleplaying Games are all about Story-Telling.
That's not really true - RPGs are specifically about player capability differential over time (abstractly-speaking). Spoilering so as not to derail the thread.

[spoiler-box]While RPGs with a good story-telling method may generally fit into the tastes of people who typically like RPGs, it's not what makes something into an RPG. RPGs are intrinsically about the player's (their character, forces, microbes, whatever constitutes "the player" as far as the game is concerned) advancement and growth through experience, actions and time. "RPG elements" as a qualitative description for all sorts of specifically-not-RPG games exclusively refers to methods of advancement and growth of the player's in-game aspects over time.

Really, RPGs are all about how your parameters, abilities, or what-have-you change over time.[/spoiler-box]

That aside... I have FFXIII-2. I've already beaten it.

I didn't rush through the game. I go through games in at least my first playthrough at a moderate pace: I don't rush through things trying to get to my new plot-related goal as quickly as possible, but I don't go on ADHD completionism-sprees in every single area either - I stop and smell the roses, enjoy myself, and make sure I check around pretty well for loot ('cause I love me some loot). My cleartime for the game is ~42 hours. By the time I completed the story, 11 out of 35 areas on the Historia Crux were still locked.

I thoroughly enjoyed the game, actually. I was quite impressed with how they decisively demonstrated that they want people to be thrown into the battle system from the get-go by giving the characters roles and giving the player access to paradigms right from the beginning... And then giving them actual meaning and use almost immediately. This was one of the big problems with Final Fantasy XIII, where your ability to paradigm shift and the setup of your paradigm deck never really mattered until fairly late in the game - at which point it suddenly spiked in how well you need to play with it. XIII-2 does a fantastic job of throwing the player right into it and showing them very quickly how things work and giving them a reason to utilize what they're given.

It gives the game a much smoother difficulty curve, which is very nicely-done indeed.

One other thing the game does amazingly-well, is encouraging the use of more diverse paradigms. Realistically-speaking, when it came to endgame Final Fantasy XIII, there was exactly one answer to the optimum paradigm deck: Each paradigm has all three characters of the same role in it, giving you one paradigm for each individual role. Because of the game's mechanics involving role bonuses and synergy between characters of the same role, this ended up being the best possible solution because there are literally no circumstances where it becomes sub-optimal for any reason.

So how do they fix this in XIII-2? Three ways, one of which is better, more varied and more strategically-interesting encounters, and one of which is that role bonuses have bigger diminishing-returns but a higher start value, meaning that stacking more of the same role within a group is less-effective than bringing in other roles to supplement them. The other way?

You only get to have three monsters at a time. Because of this, you're forced to stray from the obvious-optimal paradigm deck that plagued endgame FFXIII, since your third party member slot, which is occupied by monsters, can only have a maximum of three individual roles in it. At the same time, you get better results from more dynamic paradigms... And the result is a much more cohesive and, quite frankly, fun system to use. I really like it.

Speaking of things I like, I was afraid I wasn't going to like the monsters at first. Mostly because I don't like "pet" class/jobs in games I play, and I generally don't want to be arsed too much with micromanaging them... But after playing the game, all of my fears were for naught, because they're not a burden, they're intrinsic but unintrusive to gameplay, and I gotta catch 'em all. It's actually pretty fun - especially since raising an early, weak monster can still pay off, because you can infuse its abilities into newer, more powerful monsters, so they can carry over your process. It's actually really fun, and collecting powerful monsters just feels satisfying, just like in Pokemon (except not stagnating).

I don't know how many other people here have played SaGa Frontier, but I don't think I'm alone in the vibes I get from the construction of the game. In SaGa Frontier, the game world was divided up into "regions," which are all different places in space, with their own cultures, biomes and monsters, and everything's encapsulated - you can't freely just wander between them, because they might as well exist in a vacuum as far as the other regions are concerned... Except for progression. You can freely travel between them, and you're often required to do so for any given main or side quest, and more often than not, the main quest lines and the side quest lines are intertwined.

Really, the major difference is in XIII-2, these locations exist in separate time periods and there's only one main quest line. I actually really enjoyed this setup, as well as all of the little things they did because it made gameplay smoother, regardless of whether or not it makes sense in the story. For example, being able to return to the Historia Crux from anywhere in any zone... And then when you go back to said zone, you are exactly where you left off there, no matter what you did in-between them. That's just nice.

As someone who liked Final Fantasy XIII enough to 100% it (as it really is a great game, despite its flaws - I'm not proud of that Treasure Hunter achievement though), XIII-2 is so far a much better game overall. My only real gripes are a couple minor things about story presentation (mainly about improper execution of tone in some places) - and I'm someone who puts tertiary elements such as storylines and whatnot at the very back of the queue of things that a game takes to be great, this is a really minor complaint. That said, great game so far, it'll probably keep me busy enough to 100% it, and hopefully without the soul-crushing grind that was needed for money at the end of FFXIII to get those weapon upgrades done.

[Keilyn]

I said that "RPGs are about story-telling" because that is exactly what the genre is about. You are given an event that functions as either a Story or a Scenario. Regardless the case, it is up to the character to actually find a solution.

Unfortunately, the choice given is not to affect the outcome directly, but how one reaches the outcome.

If we strip that element away from the entire Genre, along with the way the dialogue is used, we might as well call the Genre "Turn Based Adventure"

My only problem with FF 13 is the marketing. Why is it that when Square makes a sequel to a game, they always put some school-girl that can be showed off in different ways to entice rather than just continuing things outright. I don't like how short FF 13-2 really is.

[Serephim]

I don't know...

How you guys find these characters...

Likeable...

There's PSU characters I liked more than all the FF13 characters... D:

You have to play the game.


....No, seriously. The moment XIII-2 was announced and i saw that Serah was the MC, i facepalmed. The moment i saw Noel poke his pretty little head into the spotlight next, i facepalmed even harder. So i got the game, i popped it in, and braced myself for annoying dialogue, a helpless kitchen heroine and a cocky "LETS SAVE THE WORLD WITH FRIENDSHIP POWER" Hero with spikey hair and dual swords...But i didn't find any of that. Serah, beyond her outer looks which mostly stems from Square Enix REFUSING to remove the "femininity" from her in fear of losing a certain demographic appeal, probably has more balls than most of the male leads in Final Fantasy games. Noel didn't utter a single annoying line the entire game. In fact, he's probably one of the most likable dudes they've had as a main character since like, Zidane or Balthier. Final Fantasy XIII had great characters.


I dont get what people want from Final Fantasy anymore, so i KNOW Square Enix is confused. They complain about how it's "too easy" (despite XIII making me quit multiple times) when i cannot ever recall a difficult Final Fantasy title in my life. They complain about the characters when....i can't recall when Final Fantasy DIDN'T have terrible looking cliches for characters to begin with. I mean seriously, look through the designs again. In fact the most realistic looking bunch out of them all was fucking Final Fantasy 10 and 12. And ironically, barring 13, 10 and 12 seem to get the most senseless bickering out of all of them. I mean seriously, people actually complained about the gambit system in FF12. The game gives you FULL CONTROL over your ENTIRE PARTY, and then gives you the ability to program your own AI -- How the fuck could you possibly find fault with this? "Too complicated", despite a manual, the internet, and a human brain? It's unfortunate how stupid modern games have made people.





FFXIII's story....well, okay. It was shit. Im not going to lie. Outside the character relations, when it came down to the actual "lets fight the badguy" part of the game, it became apparent just how shitty the story really was. I said it once, XIII-2 has a time travel plot (OH JESUS), but it's pretty mild. It makes plenty of sense, it's just piggybacking off a story that already didn't make sense, PLUS it's a time travel plot, and those never make fucking sense anyway. Time Travel plots always have to rely on some kind of BS in order to advance the plot, and XIII-2 is no exception.


Difference is, 13-2's plot was actually interesting. The different time periods were fun, and most of them had alot of things to do. I enjoy navigating the new fields and finding stuff. I could not say the same for XIII, where aside from the game being beautiful, getting somewhere was more of a chore than anything.







Also, I'll never forgive it for being an obvious attempt to make money back on the financial black-hole that was SE's "Crystal Tools" engine, nor will I ever forgive it for not being Versus-XIII

What on earth are you talking about? Final Fantasy XIII was an "obvious attempt for making money off crystal tools", as will be any game they complete using its framework in the future. And XIII sold like god damn hotcakes. XIII-2 is a response to everything people hated about XIII, which is well understood, because it was such a strong departure from >>FINAL FANTASY<< that it alienated the fanbase.

Square Enix is obviously not made of money, and Square Enix (and Final Fantasy) has gotten so damn popular that they will NEVER please all of their fans at once. Final Fantasy XIII was in development for no fewer than six fucking years. Inbetween that development cycle they built an internal engine from scratch and built THREE GAMES using its technology, one which sold like crazy (XIII), one which flopped like shit (XIV), and one thats still in development now (Versus).

If anything, both Versus, XIII-2 AND Type-0 are "obvious attempts" at counteracting that black hole that was Final Fantasy XIV. Which, despite me actually liking XIII on first playthrough and loving XIII-2 the whole way through, even square admits that XIV is garbage. XIII-2 is going to have alot of DLC, but i cannot possibly fathom why people are actually bitching about this. It's not as if the game wasn't shipped complete. It IS a full length videogame, i've played plenty of RPGs that ive completed in about the same time frame. Surely people didn't expect Square Enix to shit out a 40-hour story mode full of 100-hour endgame content and shit with a development cycle barely half that of the original game?


2. Roleplaying Games are all about Story-Telling.

Why do people keep suggesting this? Nobody buys an RPG to listen to people talk. Otherwise i'd buy a book or watch an anime or some shit.



In the grand scheme of things...story doesn't have very much to do with RPGs. The main concept of an RPG is immersion. You can achieve this without some kind of nobel prize story, which apparently some Final Fantasy fans all seem to be expecting from XIII and XIII-2, as if the previous 12 were all some kinds of literary masterpieces or some dumb shit. A good story enhances the immersion you get from a good RPG. But Roleplaying games, in my opinions, are videogames first.


This is EXACTLY the thinking that nuked the fuck out of Final Fantasy and brought along FFXIII in the first place. They put all their focus into Battles and Cutscenes, and omitted everything else...completely forgetting that the reason Final Fantasy 6 and 7 were memorable games is because they did the majority of their storytelling THROUGH. GAMEPLAY.



Final Fantasy XIII threw this concept out the bloody window. But i think it was great that it did, because it required that kind of fuckup for a game like XIII-2 to show up and jump-start the series again in a different direction. Whenever XIII's story is fully completed and they do XV, if they follow the same trend they started with XIII-2 (pushing the series more towards environmental and character interaction rather than just fucking cutscenes), then they'll finally be able to create a game memorable like 6 and 7 were. But damn if they'll ever impress western critics. I mean seriously, most popular videogame critics are tools, especially when it comes to biased opinions about japanese RPGs.





And just to throw this out there, this game probably had the most epic final boss sequences ive played in Final Fantasy since....i dont know, maybe 6 or 7.

[NoiseHERO]

I said ff-13

which I did buy

Which I regret.

Which I assume most of those characters are in the advertised sequel.

Which makes me rather want to watch an episode of powerpuff girls in fast foward so they sound like chipmunks.

and Yeah I'ma have to go with the story in RPG games being important... You know.. if I'm playing a turn based adventure... I want to CARE about the characters. But japan's media has gone cookie-cutter with everything in terms of plot and character development since 2005 so... meh... That's why their RPG's are slipping out of the mainstream.

For 13-2... all I did was play the demo... and all it did was hurt my eyes.. and reminded me why I didn't like 13-1..

So yeah, that's my experience.

[Powder Keg]

FFXIII:

Story? Didn't care too much. Good idea, fight your fate, obtain your freedom from the will of Fal'cie executed poorly with some characters I really didn't care about. Battle system? Awesome. Biggest problem with this is that the game gave you absolutely NOOO freedom until you're pretty much at the end of the game. That takes it down several notches and offers zero replay value.

Now onto XIII-2

Story? Better execution so far. I'm really moving forward not knowing where I'm headed next just like the characters. Noel and Serah also aren't cookie-cutout characters like Vanille (happy go lucky tee hee!) Lightning (yeah I'm on a mission I'm always serious get out of my way don't get in my way) and Snow (I'm super positive hero maaann! Gonna save the day and save the girrrlll!) Granted, they do grow on you a bit as the story progresses. Noel and Serah just seem to work better.

The battle system is improved, and with the addition of monsters, well... things start getting insane, in a good way. I'm also reading there's multiple endings, and essentially new game+, so this is clearly blowing the original out of the water right away.

[Serephim]

While XIII's story was indeed horseshit, i dont understand how the characters in the game were any more or less annoying than in any other title, like 8 or 10. XIII definitely had the most down-to-earth characters, aside from perhaps FF7 or 12, and barring annoying ass overly dainty Vanille, and annoying ass self-proclaimed hero Snow. The most amazing thing about 13 is that unlike in OTHER Jrpgs, these characters came off as annoying to the other main characters themselves....

I guess it's a matter of opinion.


But i guess it's just kind of odd, playing through 6 > 13 and hearing people start to complain about characters, though previous incarnations had characters equally if not more useless to the main plot that nobody really has issue with. Vincent, Yuffie, Selphie, Quistis, Quina, amarant (I found him useless), 10 really didn't have any useless characters story wise, but like 80% of the ENTIRE cast of Final Fantasy 6....yet people actually find time to bash Vann for not being some kind of MYSTICAL HIDDEN PRINCE or plot point of some sort, like he was apparently just useless the entire game, which obviously isn't the point for anyone who played past the first 2 hours of the game.

[Split]

What on earth are you talking about? Final Fantasy XIII was an "obvious attempt for making money off crystal tools", as will be any game they complete using its framework in the future. And XIII sold like god damn hotcakes. XIII-2 is a response to everything people hated about XIII, which is well understood, because it was such a strong departure from >>FINAL FANTASY<< that it alienated the fanbase.Uh oh, we have an apologist on our hands. Okay, here's some history. SE created Crystal Tools from completely from scratch starting in like 2004. By the time they were done and the ONE game they had planned for it, FFXIII, was made and ready to be released, it was five years later. In the realm of video game technology, A LOT of things can and almost always do happen in five years -- hell, the previous generation of consoles was only around for about 5-6 years before the Xbox 360/PS3/Wii were released.

Lots of better engines were made; not only did Unreal 3 match Crystal Tools' capabilities on a purely aesthetic level some three years before FFXIII's release, it offered a level of interactivity and pliability through realistic physics and such that the static Crystal Tools did not and still does not (since they haven't iterated on the actual engine in any way with the release of FFXIII-2). Yoshinori Kitase, the producer of FFXIII, even admitted that Crystal Tools was a mistake, saying that if they had to do it again they would've used and improved upon existing technology (like Unreal, which they're actually doing right now with an upcoming action RPG whose name I forget).

The bottom line is, Squeenix began making XIII with last-generation game development philosophy and techniques, and failed to adapt when the market transitioned to the generation we're on now. Now, instead of making FFXIII Versus, the awesome looking game they promised us SIX YEARS AGO, they come out of the blue and announce FFXIII-2, a direct sequel to a game whose awful story no one wanted a continuation of (not the least reason for which was because all the stupid/incomprehensible plot threads from FFXIII actually did get resolved in the end, albeit in a relatively incomprehensible way), using Crystal Tools engine (which, again, they have made no effort to bring into the modern era). Not only that, but they don't even let you play as Lightning, one of only two cool characters (the other being Sazh) from FFXIII; instead, you play as Serah, who sucked in the first game and still sucks now. The only worse move they could've made is if they'd had us be fucking Vanille.

Not only that, but the story still makes no goddamn sense, and it has dumb, unfun quick-time events, another design decision that went out of style a long time ago, after everyone started aping Resident Evil 4 and the first God of War in 2005. The game is like a perfect candidate for a Slowpoke meme. So yes, though FFXIII-2 fixes some glaringly stupid oversights regarding combat (like getting 'game over' when your lead character dies, for example) that kept the first game from being nearly as fun as it should have been, adds the monster hunting which I personally had a good time with, and corrects some other minor flaws, it TOTALLY misses the big picture, because it's not concerned with the thing that used to make the Final Fantasy brand special: STORYTELLING. Why does it not even attempt to offer a compelling or even coherent narrative, you ask? Because, as I said in the post you objected to, it is a soulless attempt to make back the money they lost wasting all those years on an inferior engine they only had one game planned for: Crystal Tools. I don't know how XIII-2 sold, but they didn't make a profit on it with XIII sales alone, I can tell you that much.

[McLaughlin]

As far as story telling goes, I think Episode 5 was rather well done, and the ending actually caught me off guard (in a good way).

I'm really looking forward to some plot-related DLC (for the love of God, do not make me wait for another game).

[Serephim]

I wonder if the DLC will be the same quality as the main game?


I think that they should probably release them in increments of like 3 or 4 episodes at a time. I played this game pretty much nonstop. They'll just get flak if they release DLC that you can blow through in a day, although it'll probably be packed full of alternate time lines as well, which would be great.


SPOILERS, FOR REAL

No seriously, spoilers.

[spoiler-box]

Okay so judging from the ending, this game is about to take a Final Fantasy 6 route, and probably go to a "World of Chaos" kind of route. That'll probably mean the DLC episodes will basically make up another game worth of content.


Although most importantly, im wondering how they're going to handle the main character. Seeing as Serah is dead now, either they'll find a way to revive her, or Noel is about to become the MC of this game.

Which i dont really mind, but...i actually grew pretty accustomed to Serah. She was a pretty awesome chick, probably my favorite out of Terra (low morale) and Lightning (pretty douchebagy) before her.





[/spoiler-box]

[Kent]

I said that "RPGs are about story-telling" because that is exactly what the genre is about. You are given an event that functions as either a Story or a Scenario. Regardless the case, it is up to the character to actually find a solution.
So you're saying all games are RPGs then, because all games have some sort of scenario in which you try to find a solution. That seems like a classification so broad as to make itself moot.

It stands to reason that something that exists in every game cannot be used as a distinguishing factor for classification of a specific genre to game. Considering that strictly-speaking, all games have scenarios and that many games that are never once thought of as role-playing games game stories, we cannot distinguish "RPGs" as simply "games about story."

Challenge: If you could point out a game that is an RPG but does not feature player advancement of any kind over time, I would be interested in seeing it.

If we strip that element away from the entire Genre, along with the way the dialogue is used, we might as well call the Genre "Turn Based Adventure"
If we strip the story and whatnot out of an RPG, we end up with things like Rogue. It's still an RPG - one that defined its own RPG subgenre, Roguelikes.

It's also worth noting that RPGs are not inherently turn-based, either. Real-time RPGs exist aplenty without being, say, action-RPGs... And are incidentally found readily within the Final Fantasy series.

[NoiseHERO]

While XIII's story was indeed horseshit, i dont understand how the characters in the game were any more or less annoying than in any other title, like 8 or 10. XIII definitely had the most down-to-earth characters, aside from perhaps FF7 or 12, and barring annoying ass overly dainty Vanille, and annoying ass self-proclaimed hero Snow. The most amazing thing about 13 is that unlike in OTHER Jrpgs, these characters came off as annoying to the other main characters themselves....

I guess it's a matter of opinion.


But i guess it's just kind of odd, playing through 6 > 13 and hearing people start to complain about characters, though previous incarnations had characters equally if not more useless to the main plot that nobody really has issue with. Vincent, Yuffie, Selphie, Quistis, Quina, amarant (I found him useless), 10 really didn't have any useless characters story wise, but like 80% of the ENTIRE cast of Final Fantasy 6....yet people actually find time to bash Vann for not being some kind of MYSTICAL HIDDEN PRINCE or plot point of some sort, like he was apparently just useless the entire game, which obviously isn't the point for anyone who played past the first 2 hours of the game.

I actually, hate all those characters from the older FF's too now, except for a few gem characters that HAVE to be awesome, and a lot of FF6 and FF9 characters...

13 basically re-uses those characters that people grew out of, Or hated to begin with (lightning? a female version of cloud? grow up SE that's a 12 year old fanboy character Idea...) But then making them even MORE annoying with voice acting.

There's kingdom hearts characters... the DISNEY ONES mumbling about corny "darkness and light" for 5 minutes, that I can take more seriously than... SNOW... The guy that's 6 feet tall, looks like Kurt Cobain and dresses like he's from some cheesy 90's action movie.

[McLaughlin]

I wonder if the DLC will be the same quality as the main game?


I think that they should probably release them in increments of like 3 or 4 episodes at a time. I played this game pretty much nonstop. They'll just get flak if they release DLC that you can blow through in a day, although it'll probably be packed full of alternate time lines as well, which would be great.


SPOILERS, FOR REAL

No seriously, spoilers.

[spoiler-box]

Okay so judging from the ending, this game is about to take a Final Fantasy 6 route, and probably go to a "World of Chaos" kind of route. That'll probably mean the DLC episodes will basically make up another game worth of content.


Although most importantly, im wondering how they're going to handle the main character. Seeing as Serah is dead now, either they'll find a way to revive her, or Noel is about to become the MC of this game.

Which i dont really mind, but...i actually grew pretty accustomed to Serah. She was a pretty awesome chick, probably my favorite out of Terra (low morale) and Lightning (pretty douchebagy) before her.





[/spoiler-box]

[spoiler-box]I don't think she's dead. If you go to New Bodum 700 AF with the Paradox Scope, there's a message from her from the future that says she's in a cold, dark place, and alone. There's also a message from Noel warning his soon-to-be future self that an upcoming event nearly breaks him, but to stay strong and he'll get through it.

I sincerely doubt Serah is gone permanently, and not having her in the party for a bit wouldn't be the end of the world. They could easily replace her with Hope; he was a strong magic user in XIII anyway.[/spoiler-box]

[Sinue_v2]

So you're saying all games are RPGs then, because all games have some sort of scenario in which you try to find a solution. That seems like a classification so broad as to make itself moot.

I agree. If storyline is the criterium by which defines RPGs, then what differentiates Final Fantasy VII from Final Fantasy: Advent Children? That one is a game, and the other isn't? Well shouldn't that be a red-flag indicating that your classification methods for differentiating games is lacking when it doesn't describe the game elements? For this same reason, I don't really consider "survival-horror" a game genre. How does that differentiate Pac-Man from Fatal Frame from Resident Evil?

Defining RPG's by their "storyline" is like defining Adventure games by their "exploration". The terms are so vague that they can't capture the essence of what differentiates a genre. This leads to some rather absurd conclusions such as (and I think Keilyn eluded to this misidentification) of Adventure games as a sub-genre of RPGs. They are not. Quest for Glory is not a RPG/Adventure hybrid because it contains storyline and puzzles. Half-Life has those, but it's not an RPG/Adventure. It's a hybrid because in order to advance in the game's narrative you need to navigate two major gameplay components - the progressive increase in stat advancement and solving situational/item based puzzles within a narrative framework.

You are right to point out that RPGs stripped of their storylines are still RPGs, noting Rouge-likes, but there are also more traditional RPGs like Moraff's World/Dungeon which feature little to no storyline. Traditionally, these are known as "Dungeon Crawlers"... though I suppose there's really not that much which distinguishes them from Rouge-Likes. At worst they are closely related, and at best they are the same thing differentiated by perspective. Regardless, there are definite rouge-likes which contain strong narratives and character interaction... such as Izuna: The Unemployed Ninja.

[NoiseHERO]

Aren't ALL games role playing games?

You play a role.

But being a smartass aside. aren't RPG's what influenced other genres to have multiple things in them to begin with? River city ransom a beat em up game. But it has a LOT of RPG elements. But then with today's gaming design you could call it an 8-bit GTA without guns and cars.

If anything, genres are just so you know, in general what you're buying. (if the whole game being spoiled on the internet wasn't enough for you these days.)

If you're typical J RPG is about a going from place to place, dealing with random encounters, collecting items then killing whatever boss with whatever simple strategy or grinding required... Then your real reward is the story...

And if the story sucks... Then I guess you can just have really nice visuals... IN EVERYTHING! Like final fantasy. At least then, the game will look like... something.

I'm just not liking that SOMETHING anymore.

And I guess it's okay for people that DID like 13 and 13-2's battle system and I find most people that DO like these two games talk about the battle system and finding items more than anything else.

But the turn-based gameplay was never what sold FF games to me. I know if it's an action RPG or zelda-like hack n slash with numbers, I'd play it regardless of story. But for turn based, yeah, if I'm only using X/A and the D-pad to pick choices to fight, the rest of the game better be awesome. Mostly the characters, then the visuals, The story will always be hit or miss in japan. But then this just comes back to 13-2 hurting my eyes... So I have nothing for this game. So I should feel like a dick for even posting here while ironically procrastinating a story I SHOULD be writing.

[Serephim]

13 basically re-uses those characters that people grew out of, Or hated to begin with (lightning? a female version of cloud? grow up SE that's a 12 year old fanboy character Idea...) But then making them even MORE annoying with voice acting.

There's kingdom hearts characters... the DISNEY ONES mumbling about corny "darkness and light" for 5 minutes, that I can take more seriously than... SNOW... The guy that's 6 feet tall, looks like Kurt Cobain and dresses like he's from some cheesy 90's action movie.

Character wise, Cloud was a cocky douchebag half the time, but he was never willing to actually abandon people to save his own life. Lightning was a bit more hardcore than cloud was to be honest; at the beginning of the game, she had absolutely no heroic qualities about her at all. I don't really like snow as a character, but the reason i respect the design is because i don't think you're initially supposed to. I thought his design was retarded (he seriously looks like a Bum)....but that's just how he is.


You're exactly right. He dresses like a cheesy 90's action movie, he TALKS like hes from an action movie, he ACTS like hes from an action movie. That is how his character was written, and it shows from the very beginning of the game, on purpose, how unrealistic of a character he is. That's why nobody in the game likes him. I DID NOT like snow as a character. But that does not mean he was a bad character. In fact, i think that's what makes him an actual character to begin with. The biggest culprit for a "bad character" would have been Vanille, simply because her personality just did not add up after her past events came into light. She gets one scene where she's exposed and then goes right back to being perky happy-go-lucky girl with nothing but a voice set change (which makes her sound like she's getting screwed in every battle.)




Anyway look bro its not like im gonna change your opinion or anything. Im just saying, the criticism this series gets is so ridiculously biased at this point, its just kind of getting crazy. I dont understand the logic behind it anymore. People are complaining about Final Fantasy in ways that just dont make any damn sense.



For example!

-FINAL FANTASY XIII WAS TOO EASY: although it was most definitely the hardest title to complete out of any FF game in existance. There isn't a final fantasy game past 5 that i've played that DOESN'T allow you to be grossly overpowered by the final boss. 6 had Genji Glove and those GODTIER Fiargo Twins, 7 had KotR, Omnislash, 4x Cut, Comet (could go on forever), 8 had Squall and his ridiculous limit, 9 had shitty ultimate moves but Zidane was OP anyway, LOL Yuna in 10 (Anima will probably wreck every boss in the game), 12 probably took the most work but you could probably invade a country when you were finished, catnip in 10-2...seriously i dont get it.


-FINAL FANTASY CHARACTERS SUCK NOW: If they sucked now, i have no idea what they were before. And what the hell are we comparing these characters to, anyway? Mass Effect? Oblivion? Skyrim? Kotor? Fallout? Bioshock? Shakesphere?

Are you fucking kidding me?


-FINAL FANTASY STORYLINES SUCK NOW: Once again. What. Ever. The things people complain about in recent games happened in every single game prior, but for some reason, probably nostalgia or some kind of "THOSE WHIPPERSNAPPERS DONT KNOW REAL FF QQQQ" effect, people seem to ignore this fact. I can specifically recall moments where both 8 and 9 pull shit out of nowhere to advance the plot. XIII's was just compounded by the fact that there were no towns or side content to actually immerse you in the world you were trying to save. I will certantly agree that XIII focused WAY too much on the storyline than they should have, but even Square acknowledges this. But this means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Piggybacking off a storyline like XIII, XIII-2 does a wonderful job of staying interesting.


And, once again, what are we comparing them to.


Most of the criticism is blind fanboy garbage, taking an argument and stretching it as far as it'll possibly go. Like how people stereotype Cloud/Sephiroth, not realizing that the in-game characters seem completely removed from the recent fanservice. Cloud was more of a "jock" than an "Emo". Sephiroth wasn't a "badass" (outside of that one flashback anyway). He was fucking creepy....and never had a black wing. Or how people call Tidus "whiny", when i can't recall him actually whining about a damn thing, barring a single CG sequence during the final boss. Or how Vann was useless...despite him being one of the initial sparks AND a later plot point (through his brother being murdered) of the entire storyline. Maybe it isn't fanboy rage. Maybe it's just people not comprehending the storylines correctly?




But whatever, you know opinions are like assholes. I dont judge others opinions because i definitely have my own, but to say Final Fantasy is dying off of these claims is just asinine. It's like people claim the series is dead, yet they are blind to what the issue actually is.



And i can tell you right now. It has absolutely nothing to do with the character designs or plotlines. What has changed more than anything is the approach to enriching these characters and plotlines. And i think this is something the ENTIRE INDUSTRY is failing at recently, not just Square Enix.

[Split]

-FINAL FANTASY CHARACTERS SUCK NOW: If they sucked now, i have no idea what they were before. And what the hell are we comparing these characters to, anyway? Mass Effect? Oblivion? Skyrim? Kotor? Fallout? Bioshock? Shakesphere?

Are you fucking kidding me?You make the heading of this section of your post "FINAL FANTASY CHARACTERS SUCK NOW" as if there's been a whole generation of Final Fantasy games in which people are saying they've declined. We're really only one main FF title away from the last time FF characters were mostly well developed and the stories were coherent and intriguing, i.e. FFXII.

That said, XIII's characters (and by extension, XIII-2's characters) do suck, and when you ask what we're comparing them to, the answer is every other Final Fantasy game. Do you honestly see any characters in XIII that even approach being as cool or interesting as Auron from X, Kefka from VI, Sephiroth from VII, etc. etc.? I challenge you to show me a character relationship in XIII or XIII-2 that has anything near the emotional resonance of Tidus and Yuna in X, Zidane and Garnet in IX, Cloud and Aeris (or Tifa, depending on who you focus on building a relationship with, but I think we can all agree a certain moment involving Aeris was heartbreaking as fuck) in VII.

Characters in XIII simply are never developed. Contrary to what too many JRPGs seem to believe as of late, fancy, impossibly cool-looking sci-fi fantasy armor and clothing is not all it takes to make characters cool anymore. Also, overly brooding narration about changing your destiny and other cliches does not make them interesting or introspective either, it just sounds ham-fisted and forced. XIII's characters and world just aren't given satisfactory back story beyond the thirteen days prior to the events of the first game (and if we're taking our history on Cocoon from that alone, apparently all anyone ever did up there was sit around at carnivals) -- and they wouldn't need back story if they were given likable personalities or interesting and relatively easy to follow plot points during the actual action of the game...but they weren't.



-FINAL FANTASY STORYLINES SUCK NOW: Once again. What. Ever. The things people complain about in recent games happened in every single game prior, but for some reason, probably nostalgia or some kind of "THOSE WHIPPERSNAPPERS DONT KNOW REAL FF QQQQ" effect, people seem to ignore this fact. I can specifically recall moments where both 8 and 9 pull shit out of nowhere to advance the plot. XIII's was just compounded by the fact that there were no towns or side content to actually immerse you in the world you were trying to save. I will certantly agree that XIII focused WAY too much on the storyline than they should have, but even Square acknowledges this. But this means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Piggybacking off a storyline like XIII, XIII-2 does a wonderful job of staying interesting.


And, once again, what are we comparing them to.Again you ask this question, and again I answer, every other Final Fantasy game. What the hell do you think we're comparing it too? Here's a brief story timeline for a solidly plotted Final Fantasy, namely X:

-Tidus and Auron escape Dream Zanarkand, essentially a massive aeon of the fayth of Ancient Zanarkand so that they could keep living their lives. It is being conjured by Yu Yevon, an ancient and powerful summoner from Ancient Zanarkand, from inside his summoned armor, Sin.

-Tidus eventually washes up on Besaid and meets Yuna and company. He finds out she's a summoner about to go on a Pilgrimage to destroy Sin.

-He goes with them to find Zanarkand again, not realizing that the one he's from is just an illusion, which his very existence is a part of.

-He eventually finds out that Yuna will die if she completes the pilgrimage, because the Final Summoning kills her as well as another pilgrimage member, who must become the fayth for the Final Summoning's aeon. Yu Yevon will use this fayth to build his Sin armor back up again, starting by absorbing the Final Aeon.

-Tidus learns the only way to stop Sin is by going inside it and killing Yu Yevon himself. He does it, even knowing that Yu Yevon is the one summoning Dream Zanarkand and all its inhabitants (which Tidus is one of). It is a testament to he and Yuna's love that he is willing to actually fade from existence to save her and all of Spira.

The End. Everything makes sense and fits together nicely. Even though it's all masked perfectly with well-placed twists and misunderstandings/conflicts between characters, the above framework is at the core of its plot.

FFXIII-2 is nowhere near as solidly built as this; I couldn't make a timeline like this for it, because it doesn't have a comprehensible story underneath all its bullshit. Instead, the writers just lay the bullshit on so thick that not even they know what's going on. Time paradoxes are used as an "anything goes" plot device in this game. Oh, there's a giant monster there now? Time paradox!! We helped so and so in the past, so now there's a flan here 1048034801 years in the future! It's fucking inane, and kept me from giving a shit about what was going to happen next the majority of the time I was playing.


Most of the criticism is blind fanboy garbage, taking an argument and stretching it as far as it'll possibly go. Like how people stereotype Cloud/Sephiroth, not realizing that the in-game characters seem completely removed from the recent fanservice. Cloud was more of a "jock" than an "Emo". Sephiroth wasn't a "badass" (outside of that one flashback anyway). He was fucking creepy....and never had a black wing. Or how people call Tidus "whiny", when i can't recall him actually whining about a damn thing, barring a single CG sequence during the final boss. Or how Vann was useless...despite him being one of the initial sparks AND a later plot point (through his brother being murdered) of the entire storyline. Maybe it isn't fanboy rage. Maybe it's just people not comprehending the storylines correctly?I agree with you about how people misunderstand Tidus, who in my opinion was awesome, but Vaan sucked and could've been totally removed from XII's plot. The game's only saving grace was that you could take him out of your party completely during combat and exploration (not towns though). Also, yes, people who call Cloud emo are really, really dumb, but a jock? A jock is someone who's like into sports and working out and shit, and that's all they do with their lives and they act really loud and obnoxious about it. He was more just cool, aloof, and confident in his own abilities until he found out he was living under the impression that Zack's storied past was his own, at which point he does actually make a transition toward being much more brooding and emotional, but with good reason.

Oh yeah, and Sephiroth does have the one black wing during the final battle in his second form, and is totally badass throughout the entirety of FFVII. "Creepy" doesn't mean "not badass." He stabs one of the sweetest female characters in video games and laughs about it. That's the definition of badass right there. Also, he absolutely owns during the flashback sequence where he's in your party.



And i can tell you right now. It has absolutely nothing to do with the character designs or plotlines. What has changed more than anything is the approach to enriching these characters and plotlines. And i think this is something the ENTIRE INDUSTRY is failing at recently, not just Square Enix.How can you say the problem with the direction Final Fantasy is headed in has nothing to do with characters or plotlines, and then say that the problem is their approach to "enriching" said characters and plotlines in the very next sentence?? That makes no goddamn sense. And what do you even mean by "enriching?" That's a fairly broad term. Yes, the entire JRPG industry has gotten really bad at character development and creating interesting plotlines that aren't either total cliches or completely nonsensical, but the point is we expect better from a brand as powerful and well-respected as Square Enix. As of FFXIII-2 and the disaster that was FFXIV, their image remains damaged.

[NoiseHERO]

Whoa okay, final fantasy characters mostly sucks in general and their stories are mediocre and it's not gonna get us to play 13-2 this time. Calm down Split. D:

But yeah like I said, if this game was an action RPG, I'd probably forgive most of the things making me hate it.

Where the hell is that xenoblade chronicles and KH3DS anyway? Even though I'm a KH fan I can admit that all of the characters(Except Roxas) are pretty terrible and most of em are 2 dimensional and the story is litter'd with plot holes, made from 1 guy making stuff up on short notice, to force a sequel out. Then they fill in all the plot holes with mini cash cow side story games that scared away like 2/3rd's of it's fanbase.

BUT YEAH! JUST AGREE THAT NOT EVERYONE HERE'S NOT GONNA PLAY THIS GAME EVER/ANYMORE.

[Serephim]

WEEEEE FINAL FANTASY DISCUSSION GO



You make the heading of this section of your post "FINAL FANTASY CHARACTERS SUCK NOW" as if there's been a whole generation of Final Fantasy games in which people are saying they've declined.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/233/314/fd7.jpg




That said, XIII's characters (and by extension, XIII-2's characters) do suck, and when you ask what we're comparing them to, the answer is every other Final Fantasy game. Do you honestly see any characters in XIII that even approach being as cool or interesting as Auron from X, Kefka from VI, Sephiroth from VII, etc. etc.? I challenge you to show me a character relationship in XIII or XIII-2 that has anything near the emotional resonance of Tidus and Yuna in X, Zidane and Garnet in IX, Cloud and Aeris (or Tifa, depending on who you focus on building a relationship with, but I think we can all agree a certain moment involving Aeris was heartbreaking as fuck) in VII.


FF8 > 10 focused very, very heavily on character relationships, especially 8 and 10. This isn't very uncommon, of course, but it definitely gives you an immediate thing to relate to character wise.

XII nor XIII did this at all. Although, in XIII's case, even if they did, it wouldn't have worked nearly as well as in the other games for reasons i'll explain later.





Characters in XIII simply are never developed.

Please god, define the term "developed character" to me. I'm very, very curious.



Contrary to what too many JRPGs seem to believe as of late, fancy, impossibly cool-looking sci-fi fantasy armor and clothing is not all it takes to make characters cool anymore. Also, overly brooding narration about changing your destiny and other cliches does not make them interesting or introspective either, it just sounds ham-fisted and forced. XIII's characters and world just aren't given satisfactory back story beyond the thirteen days prior to the events of the first game (and if we're taking our history on Cocoon from that alone, apparently all anyone ever did up there was sit around at carnivals) -- and they wouldn't need back story if they were given likable personalities or interesting and relatively easy to follow plot points during the actual action of the game...but they weren't.


I one-hundred percent agree. They tell you everything that happens prior to the events of XIII, but nobody really cares. Once again, i will explain this later.



Again you ask this question, and again I answer, every other Final Fantasy game. What the hell do you think we're comparing it too? Here's a brief story timeline for a solidly plotted Final Fantasy, namely X:

**FINAL FANTASY X**

Yeah yeah, i've beaten the game like 3 times, i know. It's probably my favorite storyline aside from 7.


FFXIII-2 is nowhere near as solidly built as this; I couldn't make a timeline like this for it, because it doesn't have a comprehensible story underneath all its bullshit. Instead, the writers just lay the bullshit on so thick that not even they know what's going on. Time paradoxes are used as an "anything goes" plot device in this game. Oh, there's a giant monster there now? Time paradox!! We helped so and so in the past, so now there's a flan here 1048034801 years in the future! It's fucking inane, and kept me from giving a shit about what was going to happen next the majority of the time I was playing.


Aww, bull. Of course you can -- the game does it for you. The Historia Crux is built in a way where everything is arranged according to causality, so although you may end up in a time line altered from the main one, you still know where you are. Lack of comprehension of the events in XIII-2 are more...well, a lack of comprehension.

If you HAVE to have me explain this, since it apparently made no sense to you:

[SPOILER-BOX]
in regards to the giant flan, it was going to appear regardless of the events of the "Paradox's" that drive XIII-2 plotline. The Giant Flan (which i believe is in Sunleth Waterscape around 300AF) feeds off the crystal pillar that holds up cocoon, and over years this weakens the integrity of the pillar, which plays a major part in sparking a war later in the future which destroys humanity. This is explained by Snow, which is then confirmed by Noel, who came from 700AF where all the shit already happened. So, Snow goes to the future to destroy the Flan. He does, yet it continues to regenerate, due to an unnatural abundance of Flan in the area. So naturally (like every other event in the game), they attribute this to the "Paradox Effect", and look for the source of the distortion.

The gate that connects to the paradox sends them to the Archelyte Steppe in an unknown time period, where a monster (that consumes Flan) has consumed a crystal fragment that sends everything he eats into the Sunleth Waterscape in 300AF. They kill the monster, take the fragment and leave (which resolves the paradox). This cuts off the supply of little flan that the giant one is consuming to regenerate. The party then kills the flan.



...this didn't even require the Datalog to understand. All you had to do was basically play the game and not skip the cutscenes. I dont understand how something so straightforward could have possibly baffled you so hard. ESPECIALLY since pretty much every time zone you enter has a paradox similar.

[/SPOILER-BOX]





I agree with you about how people misunderstand Tidus, who in my opinion was awesome, but Vaan sucked and could've been totally removed from XII's plot.


No, Vann could not have been removed from XII's plot. He's the one who had his brother murdered by Bache's twin, and he was the one who first obtained that piece of goddess magicite from Rabanastre, which put him in directly in the path of Balthier and Fran, after which complications put them into the path of Ashe through sheer dumb luck. Also, his relation with his brother being murdered by Basche's twin causes Basche to enter the forumla when they use him to escape nalbina dungeon, which probably would not have happened if Vann didn't hate him so much. Basche and Ashe later meet up and the plot ensues.

So, while he was not DIRECTLY involved in anyone's affairs, he very much had his place in the story, which was the point of his character in the first place. What YOU are implying is that you do not like Vann, and that he should have been written out of the game, which is completely different than him not being important to the story.




**Cloud and Sephiroth**

Yes, once again, i know.



How can you say the problem with the direction Final Fantasy is headed in has nothing to do with characters or plotlines, and then say that the problem is their approach to "enriching" said characters and plotlines in the very next sentence?? That makes no goddamn sense. And what do you even mean by "enriching?" That's a fairly broad term.

Ahh, here we go.
[SPOILER-BOX]
Allow me to explain everything! (This is all just my opinion of course.) Ahem.

The reason i say the plotline and characters have little to do with this is because, contrary to popular belief, a plot and a character does NOT make a good RPG. It's like saying a powerful graphics engine will always create a great looking videogame. The potential is there, of course, but what matters the most is execution. There is a valid reason the most highly revered Final Fantasy titles (depending on which fanboy you ask) will either be VI or VII. It's because Final Fantasy, since Square developed VII, has changed. And I blame this primarily on graphical changes. Not so much for visual purposes, but for the workload.

Final Fantasy 6 and 7 were the last games of their kind. Where you once had interactive gameplay segments and unique gameplay gimmicks, you now have elaborate cutscenes. Where you once had a story fleshed out by optional characters and entire segments that would be otherwise optional to an unknowing player, you have a much more linear storyline, designed so that you do not miss anything. This was where the main issue of FFX arised from longtime fans of the series.

The reason being is that it's impractical to do so these days. Final Fantasy always took a shitload of time and money to develop, but HD Final Fantasy? It just compounds these issues. Since everything is so expensive, everything needs voice acting, everything needs motion capture, everything needs alot more attention to develop, these games no longer have the capacity to actually incorporate features that Final Fantasy was chocked full of back in 1994. This is one of the reasons we do not have a Final Fantasy 7 remake, aside from the generation differences. There is also the idea of what sells and what does not.


So do i think all this common sense crap has to do with storytelling and characters? Well...Everything. Final Fantasy used to tell its story directly through its characters. If there was a flashback, you probably didn't just read about it, you literally played through it, despite the fact that it you would gain no levels or equipment as a reward. If there was an escape scene, there wasn't a cutscene -- you actually jumped in the motorcycle and escaped from that Shinra building. Was there an epic parade or opera in the game? You directly took part in it, in both VI and VII. Shinra captures Tifa and Barret and executes them, and you have to escape? There's no fucking cutscene -- you break tifa out of the gas chamber, you climb down the building, and you PERSONALLY slap that annoying whore that's been trying to kill you the whole game.




The storytelling -- that is, the execution -- is what seems to have changed more than anything in Final Fantasy games. If Final Fantasy 6/7 were deemed the peak of these features, Final Fantasy XIII would simply the trough. It had a story, but it did NOTHING to immerse the player into this story outside of cutscenes. If it were a traditional Final Fantasy game, you would have personally played out everything that ended up a simple CG sequence. You probably would have had the time to gain a relationship with Serah before she became a l'cie. Perhaps Snow would have been easier to relate to. You would have actually had time to bond with Cocoon before being thrown onto Pulse, the same way you bonded with Midgar before being thrown out into the world map.





XIII-2 is probably the largest step forward we've had in a while though. Probably since X-2, which really parallels XIII-2 in amazing ways (lacking story, amazing gameplay). I could type examples for hours, but if you want me to elaborate farther, then i definitely can. But in the grand scheme of things, the story really does not matter to me.


[/SPOILER-BOX]



As of FFXIII-2 and the disaster that was FFXIV, their image remains damaged.

This is an opinion, no different than my own which says that XIII-2 was a bloody awesome videogame. FFXIII was a misdirection, not a disaster. FFXIV was indeed a disaster, and they even recognize this. FFXIII-2 is a push in the right direction in nearly every way possible for this series.




And as i write this...you know, Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XIII actually have alot in common -- the game focuses mostly on story, with very, very few breaks. The difference, of course, comes from how the game presents itself...well, and i liked the FFX characters more than any of them to be honest.


but generally these conversations have alot of terms like "UNDEVELOPED CHARACTERS" or "BORING PERSONALITIES" or "SHITTY WRITING" or "CLICHES AND STEREOTYPES" when you have one person who liked one entry more than the other. Thats why talking about Final Fantasy is starting to just become ridiculous. People are too clouded by dumb shit to ever really formulate a good argument without taking shit to extremes. Suddenly everyone is an analytic writer, and has 20 reasons why [x] entry in the series was "a complete disgrace" or something.

[Ark22]

Final Fantasy meets Pokemon. BEAST

[Keilyn]

Actually RPGs came out and for a very long time they were very saturated.

Players would buy a game, go through a story but the process was the very same of equipping weapons and going into Battle Screens. This happened a lot in the 80s and early 90s. Then in 1992 an announcement came about a "mature genre" targeted at adults and mature gamers.

The idea was to break away from the systematic fashion of RPG systems. Then in 1993, Doom 1 came out and changed the world. It had 4 player multiplayer and later games started having mod kits. By the mid-90s the internet started taking the world by storm and there were MMORPGs and MUDs that were popular.

It was during the 90s where RPGs started becoming Hybrid Games. They went from being "Traditional RPGs" to incorporating other elements. Anyone remember Jade Cacoon, Legend of Dragoon. Wonder Project, 1000 Arms, etc. Those that retained traditional way of playing were given advanced graphics like Final Fantasy games.

If it didn't have the traditional RPG layout, programmers/designers tried to make the world different. Legend of Legaia and the first few games of the Wild Arms series come to mind. Lunar the Silver Star is a favorite.

Some wanted more action oriented combat and so we had Secret of Mana, but as far as RPGs go, I can actually throw in the Tales Series. I loved Tales of Phantasia and Tales of Destiny.

During this time, Tri-Ace decided to come into the picture. Their aim was to make more complex RPGs with more Complex Music. They wanted the complexity from the past of having harder battles and getting lost in dungeons and areas. LOTS OF ITEMS with purpose and things to do. Valkyrie Profile as well as the Star Ocean series did this.

I also remember Golden Sun series and Beyond the Beyond and before all of this, the Shining Force series of games and the SEGA CD title called "Dark Wizard."

First Person Shooters caused other genres to change as well as Real Time Strategy too and it was all due to the MOD kits which allowed players to create their own Content.

Please bare in mind that CounterStrike started as a Half-Life Mod. The same was true about Day of Defeat, and they became very popular.

The first Genre to add RPG elements that was very noticeable were Fighting Games which added an Experience Point System and Ability unlock System (remember Street Fighter Alpha 3).

The one Genre that has had evolution in the graphics, but has had the least amount of change from traditional playing, but has become "Friendlier" to cater to new players, but the harshness remains at higher levels to a certain degree was MMORPGs.

Back then if you died in Player vs Player in an MMORPG and you did not have an Inventory Shielding Item, you would drop your entire inventory upon death.

What Square-Enix is given credit for in its final fantasy series is that each game has had a different way of dealing with character growth and they have changed their ways of telling stories. The innovation in presenting their story is why I play Final Fantasy games, however when I want to be more serious in playing RPGs, I go elsewhere.

Final Fantasy simply isn't designed to be a long term game, but even so....Square does its job of making people Remember their stories since almost any FF fan on this forum can remember the story to each game they played and things they liked and hated.

[Slidikins]

I'm going to add my 2 cents, which isn't as composed as everyone else's response, but it's my opinion and just that:

I used to like Final Fantasy games. I really did. Well, I liked 4, 5, and 6 a lot (Japanese numbering). I liked 7 too but I never really considered it an RPG by my standards. There were no archetypes. I never had to use more than 3 party members - other than one part of the game where Cloud and Tifa decided to be whiny and leave the party - because I could make anyone into a mage or a brawler or a thief at will. The plot made sense, it was just ridiculous, and starting from there I just didn't derive much fun out of the series.

JRPGs started becoming visual novels. Tales games had great battle systems but other than that you were on rails. Grandia titles were even more on the rails, but had great battle systems. Latter Final Fantasy titles also seemed on the rails but I wasn't wowed with the systems. I played a character (presumably Tidus, Vaan, Lightning, or [insert weather effect here]) but I had no decision on what they did. I just saw events through their eyes, if that. Early FFXIII went one step beyond that and just played the game for me for about 10-15 hours. That was fun. By the time I got to the main part of the game I already hated it and viewed the rest of the work through bias eyes.

That being said, I'm not giving XIII-2 a try, at least not until the price drops a bit. RPGs as a whole have far less compelling stories than a good sci-fi or fantasy novel, so for the $60 I would've paid on XIII-2 I'll just buy 5-8 books and let my imagination be the HD graphics.

I'm not saying Bioware and Bethesda games are better, but at least they give me the illusion of influencing the game. The end result is pretty much the same, but I chose how to get there.

What were we talking about again? Oh yea, character development. Final Fantasy titles seem to be on-rails, character-driven stories that just happen to feature entire casts that I can't relate to. From what I remember about XIII, for example: a battle-hardened frail looking chick who doesn't want to open up and her nondescript sister, a boy who needs to grow up, a man who needs to grow up, a hopelessly optimistic girl with another tough-as-nails chick from the other world... and a cynical black guy. Sure, they grow a bit over the course of the game, but in the end they are still people I'd want to punch in the face had I known them in person.

tl;dr: Do Final Fantasy games have writing and character development, I just don't like it a majority of the time. To each his own, and leave it at that.

[Serephim]

JRPGs started becoming visual novels.

Exactly. I guess what that long crap i wrote was basically saying, is that somewhere along the transition from the 90s to the present, Final Fantasy slowly stopped trying to become a videogame and worked its hardest to become something else. Like a visual novel.

I think my problem with people complaining about Final Fantasy's linearity is that it's never been an issue in the past. Final Fantasy has always focused on one storyline and one plot only. It's not a Choose Your Own Adventure book, it was a story. You have NEVER played a final fantasy game in your LIFE in which you were able to, effectively anyway, alter the plot of the game. Western RPGs are built on your ability to do whatever the hell you want. But as a consequence, they lose the feeling of a memorable storyline to me. Because there is so much you can do, nothing feels like it truly matters. There's usually like ONE girl, or ONE best friend, introduced at the beginning of the game, that actually has scripted sequences that attempt to slant you into caring for this character, so they can use her/him later to drive some part of the plot.

In western RPGs for example, I can walk into a town, slaughter everyone, and then load a previous save as if it never happened. Or, i can just walk out and return, and have all the citizens return. So, where then is the impact to be had when im supposed to actually care for this town should it come under attack? It's stuff like that. While Final Fantasy has gotten pretty ridiculous with the way it's played (well, XIII anyway), i dont think the problem lies with Final Fantasy so much as the bias of the people reviewing it. Final Fantasy 6 had a shitton of characters for you to choose from, yet no matter what you do or dont do, the end of the game will always be the same. I dont have an issue with this, because im not TRYING to alter the storyline of the game. If i want to, i'll go play Mass Effect.



All in all, i think reviewers need to stop trying to rate Final Fantasy as if Western games are the fucking role model for RPGs. They have their own set of terrible flaws that people just seem to completely overlook for the simple fact that they are used to them, and apparently relate to the games better than their androgynous JP counterparts.



What were we talking about again? Oh yea, character development. Final Fantasy titles seem to be on-rails, character-driven stories that just happen to feature entire casts that I can't relate to. From what I remember about XIII, for example: a battle-hardened frail looking chick who doesn't want to open up and her nondescript sister, a boy who needs to grow up, a man who needs to grow up, a hopelessly optimistic girl with another tough-as-nails chick from the other world... and a cynical black guy. Sure, they grow a bit over the course of the game, but in the end they are still people I'd want to punch in the face had I known them in person.


What i remember from the other Final Fantasy's:

6 = quiet frail puppet girl with magic hidden esper powers, a thief, another puppet experiment girl with powers, a manwhore, his steroid junkie twin and a god damn clown

7 = hard tough puppet guy with magical hidden jenova pow- (HOLY FUCK IS THIS A MALE VERSION OF TINA GOD DAMMIT SQUARE EN-...wait), CHILDHOOD FRIEND with nice legs and great tits, black guy with a gun grafted to his arm (nice), homewrecker plotpoint who gets killed, prettyboy president of an evil corporation and a momma's boy.

8 = A freaking emo, a freaking idiot who punches stuff, an 18 year old teacher with a bondage whip, a happy-go-lucky girl with a...weapon (seriously what was that), a cowboy with a gun, and a undercover resistance princess sorceress girl who wants your dick, and a super evil sorceress bitch FROM THE FUTURE (oh no!)
* oh and all of them just so happen to be CHILDHOOD FRIENDS *

9 = a monkey, a rat, a doofus, a hermaphrodite, a rasta, a puppet (AGAIN), a loli, and a hidden magical princess summoner tribe girl with a great ass and a transvestite monkey who had superdoom casted on him

10 = Dream boy with daddy issues, a zombie, a doomed magical summoner healer girl who falls for dream boy, a surfer, a horned retard, a goth with nice tits and a happy-go-lucky-genius-mechanic girl with swirly eyes, dreamboy's dream dad, and a giant god fish.

*Oh and apparently everyone had a set of gills hidden somewhere, idunno*


12 = a gorgeous theif boy, a CHILDHOOD FRIEND dancer girl, a widow princess with an amazing skirt, a sexy guy who is just so fucking sexy that he seems to be the only human on the planet who can pull the nudist Viera archer bunny girl who's race is entirely female talks to trees and doesnt communicate with humans, a framed man who wants his honor back and HIS EVIL TWIN BROTHER


13 = hard tough used-as-a-puppet girl with magical hidden l'cie pow-(HOLY FUCK IS THIS A FEMALE VERSION OF CLOUD, GOD DAMMIT SQUARE ENIX), a little boy with a dead mom, a big stupid bum who kills little boy's mom, two hotass lesbians and a black guy with a hotrod. Also, robot head jesus.



see wat i did thar





tl;dr: Do Final Fantasy games have writing and character development, I just don't like it a majority of the time. To each his own, and leave it at that.


Man, 100% agree. It really is the only way.

[ShadowDragon28]

LOL this thread is hilarious. I never could get into FF 7, 8, 9, 10, 12... rented them, played each for about 3 hours. Then went back to playing something else, like Secret of Mana, Terranigma, Lunar, Lunar 2, and PSO... gawddamn I love those games. But I do enjoy FF IV: The After years on WiiWare. Tough as nails, very grindy, but fun.

[Keilyn]

Exactly. I guess what that long crap i wrote was basically saying, is that somewhere along the transition from the 90s to the present, Final Fantasy slowly stopped trying to become a videogame and worked its hardest to become something else. Like a visual novel.

I think my problem with people complaining about Final Fantasy's linearity is that it's never been an issue in the past. Final Fantasy has always focused on one storyline and one plot only. It's not a Choose Your Own Adventure book, it was a story. You have NEVER played a final fantasy game in your LIFE in which you were able to, effectively anyway, alter the plot of the game. Western RPGs are built on your ability to do whatever the hell you want. But as a consequence, they lose the feeling of a memorable storyline to me. Because there is so much you can do, nothing feels like it truly matters. There's usually like ONE girl, or ONE best friend, introduced at the beginning of the game, that actually has scripted sequences that attempt to slant you into caring for this character, so they can use her/him later to drive some part of the plot.

In western RPGs for example, I can walk into a town, slaughter everyone, and then load a previous save as if it never happened. Or, i can just walk out and return, and have all the citizens return. So, where then is the impact to be had when im supposed to actually care for this town should it come under attack? It's stuff like that. While Final Fantasy has gotten pretty ridiculous with the way it's played (well, XIII anyway), i dont think the problem lies with Final Fantasy so much as the bias of the people reviewing it. Final Fantasy 6 had a shitton of characters for you to choose from, yet no matter what you do or dont do, the end of the game will always be the same. I dont have an issue with this, because im not TRYING to alter the storyline of the game. If i want to, i'll go play Mass Effect.



All in all, i think reviewers need to stop trying to rate Final Fantasy as if Western games are the fucking role model for RPGs. They have their own set of terrible flaws that people just seem to completely overlook for the simple fact that they are used to them, and apparently relate to the games better than their androgynous JP counterparts.




What i remember from the other Final Fantasy's:

6 = quiet frail puppet girl with magic hidden esper powers, a thief, another puppet experiment girl with powers, a manwhore, his steroid junkie twin and a god damn clown

7 = hard tough puppet guy with magical hidden jenova pow- (HOLY FUCK IS THIS A MALE VERSION OF TINA GOD DAMMIT SQUARE EN-...wait), CHILDHOOD FRIEND with nice legs and great tits, black guy with a gun grafted to his arm (nice), homewrecker plotpoint who gets killed, prettyboy president of an evil corporation and a momma's boy.

8 = A freaking emo, a freaking idiot who punches stuff, an 18 year old teacher with a bondage whip, a happy-go-lucky girl with a...weapon (seriously what was that), a cowboy with a gun, and a undercover resistance princess sorceress girl who wants your dick, and a super evil sorceress bitch FROM THE FUTURE (oh no!)
* oh and all of them just so happen to be CHILDHOOD FRIENDS *

9 = a monkey, a rat, a doofus, a hermaphrodite, a rasta, a puppet (AGAIN), a loli, and a hidden magical princess summoner tribe girl with a great ass and a transvestite monkey who had superdoom casted on him

10 = Dream boy with daddy issues, a zombie, a doomed magical summoner healer girl who falls for dream boy, a surfer, a horned retard, a goth with nice tits and a happy-go-lucky-genius-mechanic girl with swirly eyes, dreamboy's dream dad, and a giant god fish.

*Oh and apparently everyone had a set of gills hidden somewhere, idunno*


12 = a gorgeous theif boy, a CHILDHOOD FRIEND dancer girl, a widow princess with an amazing skirt, a sexy guy who is just so fucking sexy that he seems to be the only human on the planet who can pull the nudist Viera archer bunny girl who's race is entirely female talks to trees and doesnt communicate with humans, a framed man who wants his honor back and HIS EVIL TWIN BROTHER


13 = hard tough used-as-a-puppet girl with magical hidden l'cie pow-(HOLY FUCK IS THIS A FEMALE VERSION OF CLOUD, GOD DAMMIT SQUARE ENIX), a little boy with a dead mom, a big stupid bum who kills little boy's mom, two hotass lesbians and a black guy with a hotrod. Also, robot head jesus.



see wat i did thar






Man, 100% agree. It really is the only way.

Thanks. That really made me laugh out of my chair. I love the entry for 9.

[Serephim]

I just wanted to show that i can bash every FF entry, no matter how much people liked it, just as bad as the other if I really wanted to. I personally loved every single game up there. But as you can see, it's all about perspective and personal opinion.






When you strip away the games themselves and just get down to the characters at face value, they're all extremely simple and pretty easy to put into stereotypes. I say just play the one you like and ignore the other ones. Just because the story this time around doesn't appeal to you doesn't make it any less of a good story than the ones that did.






But more than bickering fans, i hate the bickering critics more than anything. They keep talking about Final Fantasy and other JP games like Western games (or the games THEY LIKE) are the ones that everyone should be trying to mimic. Listening to an editor contact the developer for XIII-2 to ask him "IF NOEL IS FROM A RUINED FUTURE WHY DOES HE LOOK SO COOL" just makes me want to slap the shit out of him. Why the hell does it even matter? Everyone doesn't want to do things your way, and nobody complained 15 years ago when THE BEST RPG EVER had a guy with small arms carring a 200 pound sword, a woman with no clothing on and Mr.T with an arm cannon fighting to save the world.



It's just so annoying. But i guess it's just the nature of the internet to saturate the world with your own shitty opinions lol. I just hate how some shitty opinions get paid for and strongly influence the sales of good videogames.

[Keilyn]

I just wanted to show that i can bash every FF entry, no matter how much people liked it, just as bad as the other if I really wanted to. I personally loved every single game up there. But as you can see, it's all about perspective and personal opinion.






When you strip away the games themselves and just get down to the characters at face value, they're all extremely simple and pretty easy to put into stereotypes. I say just play the one you like and ignore the other ones. Just because the story this time around doesn't appeal to you doesn't make it any less of a good story than the ones that did.






But more than bickering fans, i hate the bickering critics more than anything. They keep talking about Final Fantasy and other JP games like Western games (or the games THEY LIKE) are the ones that everyone should be trying to mimic. Listening to an editor contact the developer for XIII-2 to ask him "IF NOEL IS FROM A RUINED FUTURE WHY DOES HE LOOK SO COOL" just makes me want to slap the shit out of him. Why the hell does it even matter? Everyone doesn't want to do things your way, and nobody complained 15 years ago when THE BEST RPG EVER had a guy with small arms carring a 200 pound sword, a woman with no clothing on and Mr.T with an arm cannon fighting to save the world.



It's just so annoying. But i guess it's just the nature of the internet to saturate the world with your own shitty opinions lol. I just hate how some shitty opinions get paid for and strongly influence the sales of good videogames.

I remember in a class I took, it had a section on Final Fantasy. The professor was trying to claim that the female characters kept taking a secondary role to them, and I remember in defense, it was actually the other way around.

Since FF8, the player has controlled a character which is part of the story, but in the grand scheme of things, the main story/central story targetted a character in the party.

In FF8 players may have had Squall, but Rinoa was at the center of the story.
In FF9 players may have had Zidane, but the story centered around Garnet.

FF10 players had Tidus, but the main character was Yuna and the story was told from the point of view of Tidus.

FFX-2, hey! When its all girls, your character is also the main character!

In FFXI the players did not make the story, they were part of the background story while they simply "did their part" for the nation, at least until Dynamis.

FFXII, the main character was Ashe and once again players played through the game from the point of a view of a secondary character.

FFXIII, The first FF game that was actually about the context of the world itself and not just centered around the characters.

The world is the way it was because of many events that shaped it. The characters are part of that world and live in that world and have to deal with all the elements of that world.

This game had a lot more reaction to the characters from the actual world than other FF games. You had the stereotypical Archetypes found in games, modified a bit, but thats ok.

FF 13-2. They did the same thing, only tweaked and better.

[McLaughlin]

Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urgan, and Wings of the Goddess all revolved around a female character (Prish, Aphmau, and Lilisette respectively). I think the only XI expansion that didn't was Rise of the Zilart.

[Serephim]

I remember in a class I took, it had a section on Final Fantasy. The professor was trying to claim that the female characters kept taking a secondary role to them, and I remember in defense, it was actually the other way around.



I remember those dipshits at IGN posing a similar argument about Final Fantasy as well.


It specifically made me angry, because it's like they were writing it out of complete ignorance; like you just explained, it's almost rare to find a current FF game where the lead female role isn't almost the backbone of the entire story, just as much if not MORE than the male.


Now complaining about using the sexuality of those characters is a completely different story, in which case it also doesn't make any sense because main Female leads in Final Fantasy are probably extorted sexually less than the damn male ones, only obvious exception being FFX-2.











Okay enough arguing, does anyone actually want to discuss the game

[Split]

Now complaining about using the sexuality of those characters is a completely different story, in which case it also doesn't make any sense because main Female leads in Final Fantasy are probably extorted sexually less than the damn male ones, only obvious exception being FFX-2.extorted

exploited

[Serephim]

thank you very much, boy im glad you corrected that for me before i turned it in.

Im guessing this means nobody has anything else to add to that argument, thankfully.