Roles in PSO2?

[Kenati]

I played PSO v1, PSO v2, PSO Episode 1&2, PSO Episode 3, and PSU. In all of these games I never noticed any type of Tanking Role. And if there was I was too young to realize it. I noticed Healers, Hybrid Damage / Healers, Caster damage, Ranged Physical damage, Melee damge. But no tanking roles.

A Logical guess would be to assume that this new game would not have any dedicated tanking roles or active Threat tables like in lets say, World of Warcraft. Has this been changed? Or is it still like it was? I did a quick search, but I have failed to locate any information. Probabaly thru fault of my own.

Thanks for the future responces.

[NoiseHERO]

Phantasy star doesn't need anything like tanking, used for badly designed typical online rpg bosses. Where one guy has to sit in one place for 3 hours. Because the boss was given a trillion HP.

So the only real strategy to beat him is to make an endless loop of taking hits without dying, By constantly healing the guy whose only use is high defense and HP. While the mages and ninjas debuff and nuke the boss until the boss is dead or everyone is out of potions.

Nah man, we kill our enemies like zelda monsters/bosses now!

[Dinosaur]

You can spec tank if you want. There is a Hunter skill called "Guard Stance" that makes this possible. Check out the skills that branch out from Guard Stance.

[spoiler-box]http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx142/Sensei-Hanzo/PSO2/hunterskilltree.png
HP Up: Increases your max HP.
Physical Damage Up 1: Increases your physical damage.
Fury Stance: A stance skill that increases your physical and ranged damage, but lowers your defense.
JA Bonus 1: Grants bonus damage to all just attacks, excluding techniques.
Attack PP Restoration: Increases the amount of PP you restore with normal attacks.
Fury Critical: Increases your chance of landing a critical hit while in Fury Stance.
Physical Attack Up 2: Increases your physical damage.
Physical Defense Up 1: Increases your physical defense.
War Cry: Draws the attention of enemies.
Iron Will: Sometimes leaves you with 1 HP upon death.
Guard Stance: A stance skill that lowers physical and ranged damage but raises your defense.
HP Up 2: Increases your max HP.
Flash Guard: Chance of reducing incoming physical and ranged damage.
Guard Stance Poison: Heals poison while in Guard Stance.
Guard Stance Burn: Heals burn while in Guard Stance.
Flash Tech Guard: Chance of reducing incoming technique damage.
Guard Stance Up 1: Increases defense during Guard Stance.
Auto-mate Half Line: Chance of automatically using a mate item when HP drops below 50%.
Auto-mate Dead Line: Chance of automatically using a mate item when HP drops below 25%.
Guard: Blocks enemy attacks by holding your weapon in front of you.
Ranged Defense Up 1: Increases ranged defense.
Just Guard: Greatly reduces damage if you block just before an attack hits.
Just Counter: Attacking directly after performing a Just Guard will result in a Just Attack.
Step: Quickly jump a short distance.
Step Advance: Extends the period of invincibility during a Step.
Step Attack: Allows you to attack during a Step.
Just Reversal: Use the Jump action to quickly get up when knocked down.[/spoiler-box]

[HUnewearl_Meira]

The Hunter skill tree has a branch which includes increased HP, defense and abilities to draw the attention of monsters. I wouldn't expect tanking in PSO2 to be much like tanking in World of Warcraft, though. There wasn't really time enough in the alpha to really study these things, but I suspect that the enemies won't stick to a single target very well.

[Mike]

Not too mention the ability to dodge out of harm's way and take no damage in the process.

[Dre_o]

Please don't encourage them to bring the bad things from other games into this one. PSO2 has its own problems to worry about :p.

But there seems to be little point for a "tanking" role as it is usually more efficient to just kill the crap out of the enemies with everyone taking "some" damage.

Far more fun that way too.

[MelancholyWitch]

oh my talent trees.... I'm a bit scared now I always knew there were going to be in PSO2 since I saw the info on them but didn't see these defensive ones... that could cause balance issues in the game. I can imagine every hunter going ranged defense for rangers >.>

EDIT: well actually i'll stand corrected if this talent tree applies to all classes or if there are separate ones for each class?

[Mike]

Each class has a seperate table.

[Kenati]

Oh okay! I remember the fun times I had with this games little brother. I really am hoping it comes to the US, chances are I might actually ditch WoW for it. I'll probably play a Ranger type class as I am a ranged player, and I enjoy guns. My main on WoW is a Hunter, I just got to 8/8H DS and got my end game bow on the first drop. Needless to say i'l feeling done with the game lol. Anyways, i'm going to keep looking up info, thanks alot for all the comments! :-D

[Kent]

It's an action game, so "tanking" will probably be of the active evasion type. As a Hunter, you'll naturally be in enemies' faces the most, and probably have the most of their attention anyway, so mastering your active capacity for defense (such as dodging and Just Guard) will be of the utmost importance from purely a survival standpoint. You'll fit into the tanking role in this way, just not in the sense that you'll be trying to actively take hits.

'Cause that's not really any fun - especially in an action game, where you have the chance to determine whether or not enemies actually hit you.

This is how playing a Hunter went in PSO, as well - you were in enemies' faces, keeping them distracted and dishing out damage when you could, while Rangers were plinking away with their peashooters and causing enemies to flinch or take status effects (with some damage happening as well), while the Forces dealt some elemental damage and supported the group with healing, buffs and debuffs.

Hybrid characters, of course, paved the way for crossplay between these roles of course, but all of the classic RPG role types fit in to the gameplay, just not necessarily in the same sense they're traditionally seen.

[dooby613]

I would expect the closest thing to tanking will be like in RAcaseal in the original(just having tons of hp and dfp).

[Krank32oz]

I mean I'm all for talent trees as long as they are done well. Either way a talent tree isn't going to make this game like wow so i wouldn't get too worked up about it. That's just ridiculous. Nothing wrong with a little change as long as it helps the game grow.

[Angelo]

I think Vindictus did 'tanking' in an action game perfectly. You could basically stop enemy swings with your bare hands and hold enemies in place.

I'll be making a defense-oriented Hunter with the Taunt ability and Defensive stance, specializing in blocking. 'Tanking' doesn't have to be boring, in fact in most instances of fiction it's both very heroic and dynamic. I do think that character solely devoted to soaking up damage are boring, but to have a character that can come in and take the hit for a FO or weakened ally when the occasion happens is something that should be encouraged, seeing as sacrifice is a pillar of teamwork.

[moorebounce]

I played PSO v1, PSO v2, PSO Episode 1&2, PSO Episode 3, and PSU. In all of these games I never noticed any type of Tanking Role. And if there was I was too young to realize it. I noticed Healers, Hybrid Damage / Healers, Caster damage, Ranged Physical damage, Melee damge. But no tanking roles.

A Logical guess would be to assume that this new game would not have any dedicated tanking roles or active Threat tables like in lets say, World of Warcraft. Has this been changed? Or is it still like it was? I did a quick search, but I have failed to locate any information. Probabaly thru fault of my own.

Thanks for the future responces.

Out of all my years of playing videogames I never heard of this tanking strategy. Not in videogames anyway. The bosses move around too much for that to totally work right I would imagine. That would make them the "Wing Man". You know the guy who takes one for the team by dating the ugly chick on a double date so his friend can get at the pretty chick.

lol now when I get to a boss I'll see who wants to be the "Wing Man" lol

[Angelo]

An example of what I was talking about at 0:44. The enemies in this game move around just as much as PSO2, if not more. Vindictus is another lobby-based Online Action RPG.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuuSBD9WX2A

[Omega-z]

actually Tanking is as much of a part of PS games as anything else. the Classic's had some one with more durability. In PSO they had Cast's , In PSU they had WT's ( later became useless to do so in team play but was still good in solo. ). In PSO2 you can Tank also, It's done differently based on what you want. LOL even a Force Can Tank Now if done right.

And I do run in front of fire to save ppl from hit's alot in PSU since I can handle hit's better.

[kyuuketsuki]

actually Tanking is as much of a part of PS games as anything else. the Classic's had some one with more durability.
Uh, someone having more durability doesn't make them a tank. Tanking was never a part of PSO, outside of the general HUs get in close (and generally take the brunt of the damage) while RAs and FOs attack from a distance.

[Cayenne]

Can't believe I came back just to post in this thread.

There are no tanking roles or any dedicated roles in PSO. Only different styles in which you kick ass. You kick ass, heal when needed to (maybe a party member heals you), then back to kicking ass. That's the game in a nut shell.

WoW has polluted all your minds.

[Angelo]

Can't believe I came back just to post in this thread.

There are no tanking roles or any dedicated roles in PSO. Only different styles in which you kick ass. You kick ass, heal when needed to (maybe a party member heals you), then back to kicking ass. That's the game in a nut shell.

WoW has polluted all your minds.

Really? That's not how I remember PSO being at all. FOmarls prided themselves on supporting, CASTs usually went in first when fighting enemies that spat poison, etc. The differences themselves basically made roles. If your character is too independent then there is really very little point in teaming other than having a 'most kills' e-peen contest.

All characters should have the capability to solo, but having roles when assembled is a necessary game dynamic. In fact if anything having your character be too independent is more WoW-like than PSO-like. The individualist trend that's been seeping into online games lately really seems to discourage teaming, and dynamic teamwork cannot exist if everyone performs the same actions in the same fashion for the same reason. In essence, all characters should become 'support' characters when assembled.

[Cayenne]

All I saw was people kicking ass while supporting each other when needing too. I had Hunters that supported my team WAY better than a lot of forces I've encountered.

This is a game where you play how you want. If you're gonna worry about roles when this game comes out, you're gonna ruin your experience expecting people to play how you want them to. Teamwork is a bonus to me, not a MUST in this game.

[Angelo]

All I saw was people kicking ass while supporting each other when needing too. I had Hunters that supported my team WAY better than a lot of forces I've encountered.

This is a game where you play how you want. If you're gonna worry about roles when this game comes out, you're gonna ruin your experience expecting people to play how you want them to. Teamwork is a bonus to me, not a MUST in this game.

I guess everyone plays the game for different reasons, but teamwork always seemed like the primary draw of the Online Phantasy Star series. I guess times have changed.

'Worrying' about a role isn't really something I do, it makes the game more fun to me to see how differences mesh and interlock to complete objectives. It's more like 'concerning' yourself.

[Cayenne]

Teamwork does enhance the experience a lot but it's not always gonna happen unless you find a good bunch of people to play with. When playing with strangers, don't expect anything, just go with it.

[Omega-z]

""Don't" play it that way or "Want" to play it that way and anyone does there "Scum" because they "Don't" play your way." Type of attitude is not truth and won't cut it, there are more way's to skin a cat. And many different play style's, And It's your option that's fine but Please don't knock ppl for there play style saying that it doesn't exist.

lol Huh? kyuuketsuki you think that, since the main role of a Tanker is to Absorb Damage by having more durability and to stall the enemy in the process. It's totally not to do damage like a glass canon or (NUKER). It's true that the role wasn't Defined very well or distinguished (since it was Turn Based) in the Classic's and very hard for the untrained eye but it's there.

Angelo, That was a very good Post +1.

[Stezan]

You can spec tank if you want. There is a Hunter skill called "Guard Stance" that makes this possible. Check out the skills that branch out from Guard Stance.

[spoiler-box]http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx142/Sensei-Hanzo/PSO2/hunterskilltree.png
HP Up: Increases your max HP.
Physical Damage Up 1: Increases your physical damage.
Fury Stance: A stance skill that increases your physical and ranged damage, but lowers your defense.
JA Bonus 1: Grants bonus damage to all just attacks, excluding techniques.
Attack PP Restoration: Increases the amount of PP you restore with normal attacks.
Fury Critical: Increases your chance of landing a critical hit while in Fury Stance.
Physical Attack Up 2: Increases your physical damage.
Physical Defense Up 1: Increases your physical defense.
War Cry: Draws the attention of enemies.
Iron Will: Sometimes leaves you with 1 HP upon death.
Guard Stance: A stance skill that lowers physical and ranged damage but raises your defense.
HP Up 2: Increases your max HP.
Flash Guard: Chance of reducing incoming physical and ranged damage.
Guard Stance Poison: Heals poison while in Guard Stance.
Guard Stance Burn: Heals burn while in Guard Stance.
Flash Tech Guard: Chance of reducing incoming technique damage.
Guard Stance Up 1: Increases defense during Guard Stance.
Auto-mate Half Line: Chance of automatically using a mate item when HP drops below 50%.
Auto-mate Dead Line: Chance of automatically using a mate item when HP drops below 25%.
Guard: Blocks enemy attacks by holding your weapon in front of you.
Ranged Defense Up 1: Increases ranged defense.
Just Guard: Greatly reduces damage if you block just before an attack hits.
Just Counter: Attacking directly after performing a Just Guard will result in a Just Attack.
Step: Quickly jump a short distance.
Step Advance: Extends the period of invincibility during a Step.
Step Attack: Allows you to attack during a Step.
Just Reversal: Use the Jump action to quickly get up when knocked down.[/spoiler-box]

Does anyone have the other skill trees translated as well? Preferably from the alpha2

[moorebounce]

Players with characters who can take a punch and are built to do mostly melee work are tanking to some extent. I thought it was funny to read there was a term for it and someone complaining about it. It doesn't matter how good a game is someone will think something is cheese when something can be done with in the game to gain an advantage or give you a competitive edge.

The classes and races are suppose to make your characters good at certain things and it's up to you to join a team that can use your strengths and cover up your weaknesses. That's PSO in a nut shell.


Does anyone have the other skill trees translated as well? Preferably from the alpha2

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193026

Speaking of tanking Steparu is doing it in his live stream of Tera Online right now.

http://www.twitch.tv/steparu

[Stezan]

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193026


Based on those trees, things I'd like to see further:

A Support branch for Forces. Doesn't seem like a lot has been shown about Support techs so far in the alphas. I'd like to see it expanded upon in this game, rather than the usual "Gather for buffs" from the previous games. Just some ideas of mine are being able to boost Ranger Status Effect Proc rate, imbuing others' attacks with elements, or absorbing tech damage with a certain skill activated at the cost of much physical defense. Maybe something similar to Ubercharge in TF2 where you'd follow a Hunter around giving massive boosts. Also range/effectiveness boosts to Resta and other healing. While I'm not trying to pigeon hole forces into support role (I mostly play FO and fully enjoy Nuking), the freedom to play support and what it could add to team play is yet to be fully explored in PSO.

Single Hit Tech Boost and Area Hit Tech Boost. Similar to how Fonewms did more damage with Gi- and Ra- techs and FOnewearls had the best Normal Techs. I just feel like this could add more variety to force gameplay.

[Cayenne]

If you want to nitpick then yes there are "roles" but really they are different classes with different play-styles that can play with mixed or same classed teams that won't make or break your team unless you absolutely suck at playing an action game.

Can we stop treating this game like a MMO now? It's just a simple beat'em up online action game.

[Tetsaru]

Personally, I've always loved playing tanky or armored characters in games (Gladiator and soon-to-be Paladin in FF14, Rammus and Dr. Mundo in League of Legends, steel-types in Pokemon, etc.), but I'm not sure how well "tank and spank" tactics would fit into PSO2's more action-oriented, twitch reflex combat.

People often forget that high HP and defense alone don't make a good tank; you also have to have some way of forcing the enemy to attack you instead of someone else. In Final Fantasy games, this was accomplished by using moves like Provoke to incur enmity, or Cover to take damage for a party member. League of Legends had a Taunt status effect, etc.

I recall a Charm status effect in PSU, although it wasn't used very much or implemented very well, especially since it was so easy to zerg through everything in that game, but perhaps something similar could be used in PSO2. Someone could have access to a "Charm Trap" or some other AoE move and use it on a group of enemies to draw their attention.

From there, I could see two different strategies:

- A pure tank character (most likely a Cast) would take damage for the rest of the team, or negate the damage completely (could've sworn there was a way to do this if timed properly), and could then have his/her HP regenerated over time.

- A ranged and/or utility character with high evasion and movement speed (probably Newman) could kite or pull the enemy. Status effects, DoT's, and other enfeebling moves (burn, poison, slow, knockback, etc.) could then be used to gradually wear the enemy down, allowing the puller to remain untouched.

Now, if I recall, there was mention of there not being any accuracy or evasion stats in PSO2. If that's the case, I suspect the latter method would be a lot more difficult to pull off, as everything would be more reliant on the player's skill in terms of landing hits and dodging fatal blows. Fine by me though - more people need to learn how to play Megid Dodgeball anyway. :razz:

I think it'd be cool if PSO2 implemented something similar to the Golden Fleece item from God of War, where, if timed just right, you could negate an attack, and either perform a powerful counterattack immediately afterward, or in the case of a projectile (such as a Foie spell, for instance), reflect it back at the attacker. I could've sworn there was something called Just Counter that was similar to this, but I haven't really seen much use of it in any of the alpha videos I've seen.

[SilverFoxR]

The way the combat and exp systems seem to work for PSO2, you won't really need specific "roles" per se, just more or less co-operation and co-ordination between the party.

1) EXP is shared between active players - so long as you're in the battle zone, you get exp.
2) Buff and healing techs seem to require players to sit still for a moment for the caster, which breaks up combat
3) Healing items take a moment to use (much like grass/flasks in Demon's/Dark Souls)

Essentially, everyone has their own styles and be active in the battle and, if anyone needs to back off for whatever reason, the other players would require to cover people if needed.

I'd worry less about "Roles" and more about how to fight in a free-form group.

[Cayenne]

I think those that talk about 'roles' in PSO2 want this game to behave like a general MMO game which clearly it ain't. Yes you can heal and buff your team and make a dedicated support/DPS class but that alone doesn't warrant it enough to make it a 'role' or a MMORPG style game at all.

'Strategy' fits better than 'role' as you can do more that one style of playing anytime you please.

OP was right in thinking he/she never saw any 'roles', just teamwork. That's how it was back then and that's how it will be with PSO2.

[Finalzone]

Can we stop treating this game like a MMO now? It's just a simple beat'em up online action game.

PSO series are MMO different from the traditional Ultima type game.

[Cayenne]

PSO series are MMO different from the traditional Ultima type game.

You want to be technical? ok

You like this pickup truck?
http://www.fordcolors.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2009-Ford-Explorer-Sport-Trac-XLT-4.0L-4X2-3.jpg
Ford Sports Trac

Well guess what, it's classified as a SUV but we all know and see a full sized pickup. Don't believe me, look it up.

PSO started as an Action RPG console game that can be played online. PSO2 is (at it's core) still an Action RPG console type game that has X-Box 360/PS3 controller input programmed within the game so it can play just like it's predecessor but now it's online only. 'Technically' it's classified as a MMO.

Am I the only one who see the pickup truck (Action RPG) and not the SUV (MMO)?

[NoiseHERO]

Phantasy Star is Phantasy star, it's TECHNICALLY a lot of things. But if you want to get extra technical with it, you're just going to learn the hard way the REAL use of Video Game Genres... and Genres as a whole...

They're just used to label something in a way where the customer/player will know what they're buying/what to expect. Notice it's similar to the word general General. Just "RPG" is an umbrella for a bunch of meanings. Technically almost every modern game to date may as well be called an Online Action RPG. (It's online, it has action, and you're playing as a dude that's not you.)

Online Action RPG... Action MMO... To the average person that's not been a fanboy of the series for 10 years, they shouldn't really care. You'll still find Phantasy Star news on a website that only keeps up with MMOs. In PSO's generation you could get away with it, but there may as well be games now that are "MMOs" that are pretty much exact clones of PSO/PSU (DRAGON NEST) That still call themselves MMOs anyway, without anyone caring.


TL;DR: Pickup truck? SUV? It's still just a chunk of metal with 4 wheels that I'm going to be using for picking up my kids, going to work and doing grocery shopping like any other car.

[moorebounce]

I look at PSO as an Action RPG and not a MMO or MMORPG. It's a Action game with RPG elements in it. Plus 12 players on a couple of random maps isn't massive enough to consider it an MMO or MMORPG. Once you can have 50+ on any given map then I would consider PSO a MMORPG. Unless you change the meaning of massive multiplayer to include 1-4 players and 3 groups of 4 (12) players it's not an MMO or MMORPG.

[Cayenne]

They're just used to label something in a way where the customer/player will know what they're buying/what to expect.

and if you start calling it a MMO because it technically is one then people instantly think WoW (deny it all you want) and compare both game side-by-side (like what's happening now in other threads). You can't compare Burnout with Twisted Metal because cars explode in both games (unless you want to be a smart ass about it).

Call it a RPG whatever but leave MMO out of it.

Also you can more than that with a truck Eastwood, like, umm, ehhhh...pick up dirt...?


I look at PSO as an Action RPG and not a MMO or MMORPG. It's a Action game with RPG elements in it. Plus 12 players on a couple of random maps isn't massive enough to consider it an MMO or MMORPG. Once you can have 50+ on any given map then I would consider PSO a MMORPG. Unless you change the meaning of massive multiplayer to include 1-4 players and 3 groups of 4 (12) players it's not an MMO or MMORPG.

You sir have earn yourself a beer...

[NoiseHERO]

and if you start calling it a MMO because it technically is one then people instantly think WoW (deny it all you want) and compare both game side-by-side (like what's happening now in other threads). You can't compare Burnout with Twisted Metal because cars explode in both games (unless you want to be a smart ass about it).

Call it a RPG whatever but leave MMO out of it.

Also you can more than that with a truck Eastwood, like, umm, ehhhh...pick up dirt...?



You sir have earn yourself a beer...

If someone only thinks of games like WoW when they hear MMOs...

No wonder they don't play MMOs that much.

I just think of online games where I play with other obsessed nitpicking weirdos like myself that make a big deal out of topics like this in general. Then I got back to not caring how the game is labelled, because I already know what's in it and why I'm playing it. Thanks to the internet you already know every thing about it's game before you even have time to think of WHY it's in it's genre.

If I was told about PSO for the first time and I heard it was... an Action MMO or something, I'd think "Oh it's an online game or MMO whatever possibly doesn't suck. Now let's see for a couple minutes WHY people are trying to advertise it to me." Instead of stopping at the genre and saying "eww it's just a WoW clone."

But that's just me I guess. If no one else is smart enough to actually look more into a game instead of just saying "it's like Wow, so I'm not gonna bother" or expecting it to be like WoW then get turned off by it just because of the way it was labelled, then I guess this discussion really WOULD matter. ASSUMING anyone would even want to play with people that dumb, anyway.

OTHERWISE...

This discussion is like, someone mispronounced Manga as "main-guh" Then some annoying American Otaku jumps in saying "IT'S PRONOUNCED "MONGA!" "

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

I'd love to be able to make a hunter who can specialize in some Sword & Board. The bigger the board, the better! I don't expect much since it seems like in Japanese Action RPGs it's always been about killing just about everything before it can land a killing blow, rather than worrying about reducing damage if something does. However if we wanted to keep it action related and less about "Taunt, block and/or move" for defensive players, add some skills that use the shield to attack and/or a just-guard counter-attack, then extend the tree to improve the efficiency of both to punish enemies more effectively at higher levels.

[Slakk]

My first post and i'm tossing in my two cents on a discussion... hoo-boy.

PSO isn't the type of game that would work with a tanking system that is anything like WoW, it just doesn't work with such a game engine - infact if nothing else i'd expect it to feel closer to the Dark/Demon's Souls games that require you to fight more with your own reflexes.

Talent trees will most certainly HELP the game achieve a system of variety allowing some different strategies such as which player would walk into a room or group of enemies first (i'd think they would attack the first person they see) However, forcing any set 'roles' to be more crucial to any group in PSO may somewhat cripple the group system and make it much harder for groups to work depending on what players you have in your group.

The ability to distract enemies and take more damage for your party should be more of a luxury, nothing more. Any player should be focused on avoiding bad stuff, or keeping their distance as ranged.

[Cayenne]

Welcome Slakk!

Glad you see the game how I and many on here do as well.

@Rock Eastwood: this entire discussing isn't about people calling it a MMO, it's about people treating it like a MMO i.e. tanking, needing PvP or it sucks, end game content, comparing it to huge major MMO titles when it's just a simple action game with RPG elements.

This game really only requires you to have a decent reflex skill and a mentality to kick ass with your team. No need for roles, strategies, or a mastery of your class what so ever and if you're (and by "you're" I mean anyone) anal about this then go find some people that play how you want, team up, and avoid playing with strangers all together. Freedom is what this game is about.

Also, you like to talk about yourself a bit don't you? I can tell you do lol.

[NoiseHERO]

Welcome Slakk!

Glad you see the game how I and many on here do as well.

@Rock Eastwood: this entire discussing isn't about people calling it a MMO, it's about people treating it like a MMO i.e. tanking, needing PvP or it sucks, end game content, comparing it to huge major MMO titles when it's just a simple action game with RPG elements.

This game really only requires you to have a decent reflex skill and a mentality to kick ass with your team. No need for roles, strategies, or a mastery of your class what so ever and if you're (and by "you're" I mean anyone) anal about this then go find some people that play how you want, team up, and avoid playing with strangers all together. Freedom is what this game is about.

Also, you like to talk about yourself a bit don't you? I can tell you do lol.

I dunno most of the people I talk to, we all agree on the same things or at least understand them. So I just use my own perspective on the way I see things in a conversation like this.

I mean c'mon don't you want to punch that "mongah" kid in the mouth too? D:

As for people treating this game like a traditional MMO, that's just ludicrous and as I've said in way earlier posts in this thread they should be ashamed of themselves!

[Cayenne]

They shouldn't be ashamed per say but they do need to just drop it all together. That kind of thinking can ruin other player's experience and it's un-called for.

Also I wouldn't go as far as to 'punch' the "mongah" kid for that reason alone but maybe a wedgie will do just fine lol.

As for this thread, no roles, just teamwork!

[Angelo]

As for this thread, no roles, just teamwork!

Disagree, but I've already stated my case.

[Zorafim]

Hoo boy. People get really up in arms when they hear the world "MMO" here. It's multiplayer, and it's online. Why not call it an MMO? Because it's not massive? Well, massive is subjective, isn't it? PSO is pretty massive compared to Atari games, but tiny compared to Elder Scrolls.
In short, I don't see a truck, or an SUV. I see a car. And damn if I'm going to let people slow down my conversation because they want me to call it what they think it is.

And what's this about not wanting MMO mechanics to slow down action game mechanics? Action games and rpgs have been melding together for years now. Yes, WoW may look like a terrible design to follow for an action game, but what about Global Agenda? It's a 3rd person shooter which follows the dungeon format of WoW, along with its party mechanic. You have a tank, a healer, a DpS, and a support class. The tank runs in first so all the enemies start shooting at it, and keeps threat by destroying anything that isn't attacking it. The healer keeps everyone's health up. The DpS stealths and snipes anything the tank can't reach. The support puts up turrents and stations to create a safe ground that greatly increases the party's survival chances.
It uses similar designs as WoW, but has completely different gameplay mechanics. And it's much more skill based and action packed than what I've seen of Phantasy Star games, to boot. If a 3rd person shooter can benefit from MMO designs, I don't see what's wrong with PSO doing so as well.

[Krank32oz]

I really don't care either way lol. But if someone says MMO i usually assume the world is open for everyone to roam around in. Then would have instances people then can break off and go into. PSO isn't like that but I love it either way. Labels are lame, as long as you like it.

[Cayenne]

@Zorafim: See now you're lost, that's not at all what I'm talking about, not even close.

Up in arms for calling it a MMO? Slowing down gameplay mechanics? Take a quick look at what me and Rock posted and you'll see what you just posted was never discussed, mentioned, nor even relavent to what we just got done talking about.

Also, you see a car? Whoa...

@Krank32oz: You got what I meant about identity of a certain genre. That's all really.

[Kent]

Since people have apparently just ignored what I said about and started herping at each other, I'll say it again:

"Tanking," when abstracted, does not necessarily mean "actively getting hit," nor does it have to be. To fulfill the role of a "tank" you do not necessarily have to be a bulky character with heavy defenses. There are RPGs out there (such as Final Fantasy XI) which support tanking classes that are based around evading and negating attacks, rather than receiving them directly and mitigating their impact. This is generally referred to as an evasion tank because they're not generally capable of taking hits very well - they have to rely on their ability to avoid taking hits while still maintaining the enemy's attention.

This is, very specifically, the only type of "tanking" we see in PSO. With the advent of the guard ability that Hunters can utilize with certain weapon types (such as Swords), we see simply another aspect of tanking added into the mix, allowing players to play defensively while not relying on "getting hit" to be a tank. This could be called active tanking, because unlike a lot of games, it requires specific attention being paid to evading and countering (i.e. Just Guard) enemy attacks. Passive tanking, like what we see in MMOs, isn't really viable for an action game in any context.

Also: The MMO thing. If a game can support a massive number of players at once that are capable of playing (that is, directly interacting with each other through gameplay, not simply chatting or trading - chat channels and auction houses don't make a game massively-multiplayer), then it is massively-multiplayer. A "massive" number of players at once is relative, of course, but we have to look at it relative to the number of players we see in games that are specifically not massively-multiplayer. These games generally top out at 32 players (though I have seen them go upwards of 128 players at once... ten years ago).

It's safe to say that if a game supports fewer players than your average Generic McFPS playing together at once, then it isn't massively-multiplayer. PSO and PSO2 support four players at once. I am disappointed that people have trouble with such basic logic.

[Cayenne]

^You sir deserve two beers!!!

Also, do you mean 'Just Counter' instead of 'Just Guard'?

[Kent]

I'm under the impression that Just Guard is a pre-requisite to being able to do a Just Counter. From my understanding, you have to press the Guard button at the right time to deflect an enemy attack and knock them off-balance (rather than simply take it for less damage and their attacks continue as normal, like if you held the button), and then press the attack button immediately afterward to execute a Just Counter.

Either way, I think what I was saying was understood. Active defenses, countering and evasion while keeping an enemy's attention are means of how tanking should work in an action-oriented game.

[Cayenne]

This is how it worked when I did it in game. You block with Just Guard and instantly deflect the attack if timed right and when you acquire Just Counter and do the same action you auto attack right after you deflect.

[Omega-z]

Kent - I'm not sure ppl in general ignored you or simply agreed with you. I'm sorry If I had but your right on how things evolved form game to game. I'm just saying they existed in a more passive way of game playing before hand.

So like you said with the Evasion Tanking, Active Tanking, Passive Tanking being different Defensive options for a Tank; Same goes for Stalling, Supporting, DPS'ing for the Offensive part of a Tank. Any of these can be focused on or done all at the same time if your skilled enough to pull off all of them at the same time.

Your right that the same tactic's in the older games won't work all the time in PSO2 and that it changed to incorporate more of a Evasion Tanking then a Passive Tanking style or option. Even Passive Tanking has changed in how you do it and only used with certain attack's or scenario's that come your way. Now it's not done the same as before since it's more fast paced and not as focused on it but you still can through your other options or a combination of them.

I wished instead of having a argument over if a Tank exist's, We could have it over How things have changed to add more flow to the game and how it may or may not change your game play or tactic's. It would of been more informative and interesting to hear what other's had done in Alpha. Like Dinosaur (I believe it was him) did in one of his video's with the skill he was showing with his red Cast.:)

[Cayenne]

Tanks don't dodge attacks, they sit there, take damage, and kill in the process of doing so while someone heals it. Anything other than that shouldn't even have tank in the name.

If you all want to call it a tank or some other hybrid variation of it, go for it but really when I played Alpha 2 everyone just did there own thing and not called themselves anything or said what their role or strategy was. We all improvised and switch strategies when needing to and we all did fine and the game will play about the same even IF we had dedicated roles and a strict game plan.

This game is too fast and simple to even do so but like I said many of times, freedom to play how you want is why this game will please everyone. Go to your heart's content and make that "Tank".

[Angelo]

Tanks don't dodge attacks, they sit there, take damage, and kill in the process of doing so while someone heals it. Anything other than that shouldn't even have tank in the name.

That's not really what a 'tank' is. A tank is any character that finds a way to redirect damage or attacks towards themselves and away from their teammates be it through blocks, dodges, or just absorbing the attack entirely. Cecil from Final Fantasy IV for example... is a tank. He plays as a normal character until a party member has low-HP and then he jumps in and absorbs the attack, he doesn't just sit there and soak up damage while the rest of the team hangs out.

Another example is the Warrior in TERA, which is actually listed as an 'evasion tank'. They wear light armor, and cannot take a hit well but they have exceptional dodging abilities.

I guess we could sit here and argue about the semantics of what a 'tank' really is. But if a 'tank' is seen as just a dummy that doesn't have to dynamically work to repel damage (block, counter, hold, push, charge, or dodge) to save his own teammates... then that's not the kind of 'tank' I ever want to see in this game.

Maybe we can coin a new term for Defense Oriented HUs in this game that primarily focus on keeping the team safe. I'd say they're more like "Bouncers" or "Bodyguards" than "Tanks".

[Cayenne]

Bodyguard sounds better.

The reason why I keep saying forget the whole tank thing is how the enemies realistically behave in the game, not how enemies traditionally are in other games so trying to play this game like you may do in WoW (or any other MMO) may backfire on you but again, you're more than welcome to attempt these strategy.

I've played this game already, I know these roles aren't needed, and being a pure non-hybrid "tank" won't work, period.

You can be something like a tank...

[Angelo]

Bodyguard sounds better.

The reason why I keep saying forget the whole tank thing is how the enemies realistically behave in the game, not how enemies traditionally are in other games so trying to play this game like you may do in WoW (or any other MMO) may backfire on you but again, you're more than welcome to attempt these strategy.

I've played this game already, I know these roles aren't needed, and being a pure non-hybrid "tank" won't work, period.

You can be something like a tank...

Well there are 'tanks' in games with realistic enemies. I've actually been playing the TERA beta this weekend and the way 'tanks' work in this game are interesting. They actively block and protect and have a defined role.

[Cayenne]

By 'realistically' I mean how the enemies think, move, attack, and block in PSO2 and ONLY in PSO2.

Tera has it's own way to fight and tank (which sounds cool btw) and playing PSO2 like Tera is different, maybe not by much, but enough for you to think about a basic way to play that game and only that game.

Also, if you're gonna compare a MMO to PSO2 then Tera should be the type of game to do so as it plays in a very similar way.

[Omega-z]

I like Angelo idea to change Name's term, Maybe we could call it a Guardian, Defender, Vanguard instead of Tank?

I'm not worried about the pace of the game. It's true it's not needed but then what really is in this type of game other than your own character. It's just how ppl play and love those or any roles, they will keep that style and modify it with-in the game to make it some former form of it, Even if no one cares.

The monster's to think hmmm.....they just follow patterns still just more complex but nothing new I've seen .......Yet!, They do move better but there attacks are still slow but that could change if Sage add in more speed, attack's hmmmm are easy to read but in a group that where things really get fun where you need to keep track of all the group. Which should be easy for veteran player's to do even at faster speeds, But may be harder for newer player's. Block is a great add-on for the monster and was needed along time ago......it still fun to smash right through that too.

Overall It's too soon to tell if the difficulty of the monsters, if they well be fine or not. At 20 they seem to easy and needed more of them at times. In fact I only died to mistakes on my part then the behavior of a monster itself. It was Alpha 2 and wasn't very focused on the monster as much as other things they needed testing on. We'll just wait and see what new monster or tricks they'll add to the monsters....like the infested monster was a big ++++.

[Cayenne]

That's another good term that makes sense Omega-z, call it a defender. Better yet, Protector.

Hahaha we can be here making up new terms all day.

Damage Sponge, Personal Armor, Breathing Shield, Punching Bag...

[Dinosaur]

I'm sure the returning challenge mode and higher difficulties(which equals faster and more enemies) will call for War Cry or Guard Stance. Taunt is an amazing ability for any game.

I'm personally planning on a tank Force that has War Cry and Guard Stance(if it's possible, that is).

[Angelo]

I'm sure the returning challenge mode and higher difficulties(which equals faster and more enemies) will call for War Cry or Guard Stance. Taunt is an amazing ability for any game.

I'm personally planning on a tank Force that has War Cry and Guard Stance(if it's possible, that is).

Forces can't learn Guard Stance or War Cry.

Maybe they'll have a subclass that will let them learn some Hunter abilities though.

[Dinosaur]

Forces can't learn Guard Stance or War Cry.

Maybe they'll have a subclass that will let them learn some Hunter abilities though.

Force with Hunter sub-class. I thought that was implied but I guess not.

Force with Hunter sub-class.

Force with Hunter sub-class.

SUB

CLASSES

[NoiseHERO]

Chiiiiiillllll. D:

I'm still dying to know how subclasses work though, and for them to OFFICIALLY reveal more weapons besides that lance spear thingie.

[Kent]

Tanks don't dodge attacks, they sit there, take damage, and kill in the process of doing so while someone heals it. Anything other than that shouldn't even have tank in the name.
You seem confused.

Generally in RPGs, there are four basic roles for characters: Tank, Damage-dealer, Healer, Support. The last of which is generally folded into other classes as a means of diversifying things.

But in a logical sense, any character in any game focuses in one or more of these, regardless of what type of finesse or style they go about doing things, they are going to be fulfilling one of these roles. "Tank" is the designation given to a character whose job it is to make it so enemies aren't slaughtering their allies.

It doesn't involve that they have to actually be directly getting hit themselves. The "tank" that you're describing is merely one style of "tank" in games, but to think it's the only kind of thing that can be called a "tank" is just trying to specify a niche for a specific style of tanking (which is all "taking hits to the face" is - a specific style of tanking).

A tank is a tank is a tank - it doesn't matter if they have heavy armor and a shield, or if they're light on their feet with a rapier and uncanny parrying skills, or if they're a grappler that specializes in evading and countering attacks, or if they're a mage that making fantastic usage of counterspells and being effectively a lightning rod. A tank is any character based around getting an enemy's attention and dealing with it within their personal means of doing so. That's the definition of the role - it's not so limited as to just be "a bulky guy that intentionally gets hit a lot."

[Cayenne]

Here we go again with the technical and what every other tank in a RPG is...

I said what I meant already and a lot of you know what I was talking about.

I'm done.

[NoiseHERO]

Guy's stop all of this bickering!

Tanking is just a dumb word that nerds use to describe the guy that's always taking one for the team in their stupid RPG games. D<

/rolls the 20 sided dice

[Cayenne]

^this

[Kent]

Guy's stop all of this bickering!

Tanking is just a dumb word that nerds use to describe the guy that's always taking one for the team in their stupid RPG games. D<

/rolls the 20 sided dice
NERDS!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZVdR19E5mU

[Angelo]

Guy's stop all of this bickering!

Tanking is just a dumb word that nerds use to describe the guy that's always taking one for the team in their stupid RPG games. D<

/rolls the 20 sided dice

So then change the term to discard the context and stigma. I'm fine with that.

[NoiseHERO]

/Didn't read ANYTHING you guys said and it's resolved like that?

NUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anon_Fire]

*big facepalm*

This is hopeless.

[NoiseHERO]

Anon_fire... it's all of your unproductive 5 word posts that are pointless. D:

You gotta stop doing that, man. D:

[Cayenne]

NERDS!

NNNNNEEEEERRRRRDDDDDSSSSSS!!!!!!!

[Kenati]

Holy crap, I never once imagined this thread would take off like this. What on earth have I done?!? :-o

[Cayenne]

Actually you did this board a service. I had to bring down the hammer and revive the true identity of PSO to those that saw it different.

[Angelo]

Actually you did this board a service. I had to bring down the hammer and revive the true identity of PSO to those that saw it different.

Nah, people just got sick of going in circles. You're still a bit off :P

[Cayenne]

Hahahaha.

Ok, we'll keep it at that lol.

[NoiseHERO]

But it's true.

Arguments over pointless things and "HOW PSO DID IT" go way over the "WHY THE HELL SHOULD ANYONE CARE??" horizon.

That's why I wasn't trying to jump into that "will this game have sub classes" crap.

[Aiex]

So here's something I've been wondering about.

Forces have a couple roles they can fill: damage, buff, and heal. In the alphas, all of these were best accomplished by FOnewerals because they have the highest MST.

In PSO FOney also had the highest MST, but each class had a bonus that suited it to a certain role so there was good reason to play other FO classes. FOnewm got a Ra-tech boost that made him best for nuking, FOney had a simple tech boost that gave her the highest damage, FOmarl had grants and support tech bosts, and FOmar had a combination of boosts I think.

If they do add sub-classes, then there will be reason to play other combinations so that you can have better stats in your sub-class. But what if you want to play strictly FO? What I'm getting at is that unless some class bonuses akin to those from PSO are added to bias each class toward a certain FO role, it will be hard to justify playing anything but FOney.

Which leads me to think that they probably will add bonuses down the road somewhere.

The problem isn't quite as pronounced for HU and RA because there are at least two stats, ATP and ATA, that affect their performance and suit them to different play styles. Like in PSO there were a lot of people who opted for HUcaseal over HUcast for accuracy. Nonetheless, there were also weapon type bonsuses for HU and RA (iirc), so I expect if we see class bonuses for one class we'll see them for every class.

At least I hope so. I want to play FOnewm, but not if I can't outstrip a FOney in at least one category of techs.

[Kaydin]

PSO, PSU and PSZ have all had bonuses race/gender/class/etc combos, so there's a decent chance we'll see them for most combinations in PSO2.

As for subclasses, I'd think they would have options for those who wanted to be a single class.

But aesthetics play a huge role in online games. Not everyone wants to play a FOnewearl, even if she does have the "best" MST stat.