500yen(≒6$): Inventory extension per 30 days

[aslan_blue]

According to the latest Syogai PSO update, Sakai told that

inventory expansion per 30 days will cost 500 yen（ ≒6$）

However, he hasn't disclosed the price of any other items or services.

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2012/04/120419a.html

[Zorafim]

Oh.

Fuck.

[BWS-1]

This ''inventory expansion'' thing is... you mean the room rent, right? Or that's just something else?

[SELENNA]

Can't get behind these "rentals", sorry. It sucks.

[NoiseHERO]

6 dollars just to hold 30-100 more items or something? D:

Hope trading and my rooms/my shops are cheaper.

[youcantcatchtheblue]

I wonder what happens to your items in the expansion inventory when your 30 days are up...

seems like it will create a lot of unnecessary hassle if they have to lock items away or make you choose items to keep once your 30 days are up.

I hope they have a good system to deal with this.

500 yen doesn't sound too bad, hopefully the premium cost won't be much higher than that.

[BWS-1]

Wanna bet that we'll have to pay to get monomates and the likes to be ''stackable items''? ;p

[Randomness]

I wonder what happens to your items in the expansion inventory when your 30 days are up...

seems like it will create a lot of unnecessary hassle if they have to lock items away or make you choose items to keep once your 30 days are up.

I hope they have a good system to deal with this.

500 yen doesn't sound too bad, hopefully the premium cost won't be much higher than that.

Probably inventory counts a full (can't pick anything up) until under basic limit.

[Skyly]

This ''inventory expansion'' thing is... you mean the room rent, right? Or that's just something else?

I'm thinking it means what it says.. just more storage.

[BWS-1]

I'm thinking it means what it says.. just more storage.

Ah, I tried. I mean I dunno... having a room sounds like ''having more storage option'' when you think about it, so it could have been that?

[aslan_blue]

This ''inventory expansion'' thing is... you mean the room rent, right? Or that's just something else?

I meant It's amount of items you can keep.

He didn't mention about room rent charge.

[r00tabaga]

Catchtheblue: Yeah, I wonder what happens too!

Anyone know if extra character slots payed for are perm or temp?

[RocSage]

I wonder what happens to your items in the expansion inventory when your 30 days are up...

seems like it will create a lot of unnecessary hassle if they have to lock items away or make you choose items to keep once your 30 days are up.

I hope they have a good system to deal with this.

500 yen doesn't sound too bad, hopefully the premium cost won't be much higher than that.

Of course it is high, because they don't want you to get that.

This is part of the lie of Freemium.
The premium package consists of several things that will add up to like $1-5 more when added together. This makes you look at what you are doing and calculate you can either get all these for x lower price or get almost that same thing for a higher price.

It's all psychological manipulation.

[NoiseHERO]

Of course it is high, because they don't want you to get that.

This is part of the lie of Freemium.
The premium package consists of several things that will add up to like $1-5 more when added together. This makes you look at what you are doing and calculate you can either get all these for x lower price or get almost that same thing for a higher price.

It's all psychological manipulation.

Then you lose no matter what you buy!

[moorebounce]

I don't really hoard so I don't really care what they charge for the extra storage space. If you can hold even a little bit more than PSO1 thats more than enough room for me.

[Randomness]

Of course it is high, because they don't want you to get that.

This is part of the lie of Freemium.
The premium package consists of several things that will add up to like $1-5 more when added together. This makes you look at what you are doing and calculate you can either get all these for x lower price or get almost that same thing for a higher price.

It's all psychological manipulation.

Manipulation? Not really. That suggests they're being subtle or something. It's no different than combo meals at McDonalds.

[Vashyron]

So since this depends more so on the Translators wording, is this Expansion on Bank storage, or player inventory?

[Priest]

If grinders stack this time, inventory space will be the least of my worries. >.>

[Mracless]

Looking forward to paying $30 a month for all the basics in the premium pack thing plus 3 extra characters. Then pay even more for all the good clothing options multiple times for different colours for different characters and then gamble my money on scratch for a chance at the best customisable options.

[Skyly]

So since this depends more so on the Translators wording, is this Expansion on Bank storage, or player inventory?

Item storage. In the actual JP text it's translated by google using the word "warehouse." My room was used in a different context separate from "warehouse" so this further proves its just extra storage and nothing else.

Roughly 6 USD for extra storage space.

[aslan_blue]

So since this depends more so on the Translators wording, is this Expansion on Bank storage, or player inventory?

Sorry, it was a poor choice of word.

I mean it's player's item storage.

[Jonth]

Of course it is high, because they don't want you to get that.

This is part of the lie of Freemium.
The premium package consists of several things that will add up to like $1-5 more when added together. This makes you look at what you are doing and calculate you can either get all these for x lower price or get almost that same thing for a higher price.

It's all psychological manipulation.

Well... The only manipulation I can see is if there is one or two things in the package that you wouldn't really want normally, and by purchasing the package, you have technically spent more than you would have by purchasing the items you wanted separately. Even then, you really have no one to blame but yourself.

As it stands though, it sounds like you are saying it is manipulation to give you everything that you want for a cheaper overall price... Unless you are saying that they have at that point convinced you that $30 is a good deal for everything when it would normally be $40 separately, but really should not realistically be anymore than $10 for everything. In that case, I agree. Sorry, I like to argue with myself sometimes.

[RocSage]

Manipulation? Not really. That suggests they're being subtle or something. It's no different than combo meals at McDonalds.

It's psychological manipulation. Same as the idea of "Freemium" and when you look at prices why they are $2.99 and not $3. It's also part of the reason facebook games are popular.

It's all just psychological manipulation, but it is a matter of how you use it. I don't agree with the terminology because it is advertising trickery.

"Freemium" means "Upgradable Restricted Demo with Unlimited Play"
It's called Freemium, because Freemium sounds better than URDUP and Free is a key word that allows people to justify something.

The Psych process in this situation is...
Well I need more storage, but if I get more storage alone it will cost me more than if I get it with this package and if I don't get the package now and want it later I'll be paying for this double so if I want this 1 item I should just get this package.

There is also the issue that it is a BS cost to begin with as it doesn't cost them anything different from giving you 10 spaces or 20 spaces, but that is more of a different issue.

But the main argument here is more to the point this isn't an important thing to consider because it's there for this psychological trick and the cost really is irrelevant.

[Misaki Ki]

If that's $6, things may get expensive very fast.

[BWS-1]

meh, come to think of it... [bit of a rant coming]

... If I'd end up putting 60$ for that game before I even start playing and end up paying 12$ a month with a decent load of stuff I'd use for the coming months/year, I think it would already have paid itself. Hell, probably end up cheaper than if I'd invest myself in time and money for other games. What single game will last a year's worth of playing out there? So far not many managed to pull it off, most of them are ''entertaining interactive movies'' which, granted, are good... but once you're through, there usually isn't much else to it and aren't worth playing again. Unless they are actually FUN to play and it doesn't matter whether the content isn't great or a playthrough is under 30 hours; the game. is. FUN. But yeah... those too are rare nowadays.

I mean, I put 1500 hours in PSO ver1 and 2 alone. For the time I've played it, I didn't play nearly as many other games as I would have, why? Well, I was busy with PSO, having a life and having to go to school/work. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't end up contributing against my will to the Dreamcast's demise, so much I really only played PSO for at least a year and a half... So far, other games which cost me less on the initial purchase compared to the amount I've put on MMOs have ended up costing me more per hour played in the end. Time and desires are like money: they can be spent, invested or wasted. It's a bitter comparison, but I can't think of any other way to say it.

It's all a matter of how YOU will end up being entertained with that piece of virtual product. Paying for virtual content... isn't that what is done for all games? Then again, having the satisfaction of having paid once for a game and not having to pay more while owning all of the content might be a common delusion that you're paying less in the end as those ''full'' games would probably end up being played 30-80 hours. Or less. Worst case scenario: playing PSO2 for a month after having bought all its extras then giving up on it would end up costing what, roughly the price of a game bought off the shelves of a store? Or an XBLA title? So it would end up having had the life of any other average game out there, maybe slightly longer (if you played it 12 hours a day 7 days a week for that one month haha) and cost you less.

I'm still not liking the idea of paying for ''breathing'' in a game if it comes down to it... but if that cost is so low that in the end, the time I'll spend in PSO2 will be time I'm not gonna spend in ''other games I'm not gonna buy since I'm too busy playing PSO2 '' and remain entertained... where am I losing, here? Well... I guess I am losing a bit, that's for sure. The only way I wouldn't be losing would be to stop playing period. But where's the fun in that, right? ;3

[Ark22]

Of course it is high, because they don't want you to get that.

This is part of the lie of Freemium.
The premium package consists of several things that will add up to like $1-5 more when added together. This makes you look at what you are doing and calculate you can either get all these for x lower price or get almost that same thing for a higher price.

It's all psychological manipulation.

Quit using hindsight haha. Ok first off 5 bucks is not bad, also since the game will allow elements of the same nature like a Fire Blade vs a Fire enemy, your attack points will no be reduced it will stay the same just no extra benefits so having a crap ton of different elements in your storage is pointless.

2. We don't even know how much we start out with, the only way you can fill up your storage is by being a pack rat and just saving everything.

3. 6 bucks is not that much, mainly a month you guys are tripping. You can find 6 bucks on the ground in a week if you tried. But if the premium mess is higher JUST GET THAT because everyone is complaining that it isn't P2P so if you think like Roc Sage just get the Premium package.

shit = solved.

[Golto]

What will likely happen if you stop paying for extra storage is the items in the extra space will be locked. So you'd have to pay for storage again to access them.

[Sidney]

If that's $6, things may get expensive very fast.
My thoughts exactly. That's quite a sum for additional storage, and it makes me think that more essential features will cost even more. What if the room rental fee is $10? And then to trade, it's an additional $5? And then add extra characters, or clothing options you may want that month? It can get over $20/month pretty fast, and I think that's a bit much, at least for me.

[Zyrusticae]

The "premium package" is very likely to cost the same as a monthly fee, so your fears are unwarranted.

The game's basically P2P at this point, except without the caveat that you completely lose access to your characters if you don't pay (you just lose room access, storage, and other assorted perks).

[Sidney]

I don't mind paying to play in the least - that's not a problem. I just don't want to end up paying $30+/month for what should be rather basic features. At least for me, that's just a bit more than I'm willing to spend on a monthly fee.

[Misaki Ki]

For me, I'm aware of the possible packages - it's just this particular item, the extra storage, is expensive. It's very expensive to what it should be.

It's not expensive in the mindset of $6 expensive, it's not. The value of the extension isn't worth $6 for 30 days.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't know where you're getting the idea that they're going to suddenly jump the price up 2.5x(!!) over the previous games...

[Ryudo]

The "premium package" is very likely to cost the same as a monthly fee, so your fears are unwarranted.

The game's basically P2P at this point, except without the caveat that you completely lose access to your characters if you don't pay (you just lose room access, storage, and other assorted perks).

except we also have to pay for things like outfits

[DoubleJG]

If they follow other business models such as Nexon's, they will hopefully offer a permanent inventory upgrade option at a higher cost.

If $6 is for 30 days, I'd expect to see a permanent increase at around $13 - $15.

I play Dragon Nest, a game that is 100% free-to-play, but the one thing that hits you harder than anything else is the small amount of inventory space. I expect the same thing to happen with PSO2.

Also, how do most of you plan on paying for this game's in-game goodies? Will SEGA of Japan accept Western credit cards?

[Arika]

500 yen? it is must cheaper than premium subscription in PSU-jp.

[Demon-]

Sounds like it pertains to character inventory and if does is then this is ok as long as there is a good amount of space to begin with. Then this will be just for the super lazy people.

[Sidney]

I don't think they'd drastically change the business model they've had in the in the past unless they expected additional profits from it - which means more cash out of my pocket. Hence, my skepticism that I'm only going to be paying $10-15 a month for all the features I had access to in PSU (clothing, room, 4 character slots, ability to trade, etc). I don't know for sure, as I'm admittedly not the most up-to-date on PSO2 news, but something in me doubts the "premium package" subscription is going to include access to clothing, hairstyles, and additional character slots. I'm willing to pay for such things, but with a great degree reluctance once it gets past a certain price point. It's a bit too early for me to feel such trepidation - I shall hold my final judgement until all the prices are revealed - but like a lot of people, I can't help but to feel a bit wary about this new model.

[White]

Well, yeah, but this is one, single item we are talking about. Conservatively, I think they will price the inventory expansion, room rates, etc all at around $5 each. So if we are paying monthly, this means that we are each going to cough up $15-$20 in necessary items. I would really like to opt for a permanent option at a higher cost. If I'm paying I might as well bite the bullet and fork over the dough once instead of prolonging my suffering. Im going to guess an additional character will be like $7-$10 plus you will need to get all the expansions and stuff for them too, so you're going to be paying big money.

[landman]

500 yen? it is must cheaper than premium subscription in PSU-jp.

But this is only for extra storage, we have no word on trade counter rent, room rent or shop rent, neither on the premium pack.

[•Col•]

Considering Mike Posted this in the other thread:



A "premium set" will be available in 30 day periods. This includes the use of your room, the ability to open a shop, expanded storage, and the ability to trade.


I think the $6 is for the whole thing. Which isn't bad at all. If it IS just for the expanded storage though... That's a ripoff, and am scared what else they're going to do with the cash shop.

Also, they better not just delete the items in your storage or not allow you to get them if you don't pay the subscription. I think the best thing to do would be: If the player is over the standard item limit, then don't allow them to put new items in the storage until you take items out of it to get below the standard limit. That way you can at least grab your rares out of the storage box if you don't feel like paying the fee for a month or two. :wacko:

[DoubleJG]

$6 is only for expanded inventory.

The premium package that Mike mentioned is similar to what you'd get if you purchased a monthly membership for a game. Many F2P MMOs are doing this nowadays, so this doesn't come as a shock. This business model is fairly popular in the East, and it is undoubtedly the future of MMOs for the West. DCUO wasn't doing very well when it launched at $15/month, but switching to the same business model that Nexon and SEGA of Japan will be using, their profits inflated quite drastically. You can expect that premium price to be around $15/30 days.

My question still stands - How do all of you plan on paying for this content? Does SEGA of Japan accept Western credit cards?

[White]

Its definitely for just the expanded storage, clearly none of you have seen a legitimate cash shop before and they are living nightmares and the enemy of all online games. Their mindset is that they are offering you a "premium gaming experience" at a higher price. A much higher price. They will do whatever it takes to get you to fork over the money, the gachas are only the beginning, and you will easily be paying $20+ per month for the things you want. The "premium package" will offer everything you want at a $2 discount, if any. Prepare to get shafted.

[AnnabellaRenee87]

Sega, Why wont you just take my $10-20 a month?

Oh thats right you can charge people more each month for the same thing. OK I remember how businesses work now.

[RocSage]

Well, yeah, but this is one, single item we are talking about. Conservatively, I think they will price the inventory expansion, room rates, etc all at around $5 each. So if we are paying monthly, this means that we are each going to cough up $15-$20 in necessary items. I would really like to opt for a permanent option at a higher cost. If I'm paying I might as well bite the bullet and fork over the dough once instead of prolonging my suffering. Im going to guess an additional character will be like $7-$10 plus you will need to get all the expansions and stuff for them too, so you're going to be paying big money.

I don't want to sound mean, but that sounds like a ridiculously stupid assumption.

Character slots are always permanent, save for in 1 game currently and they are $1/month. Character slots are also extremely cheap on the back end because Hard Drives are cheap.

Styles are 1 time purchases that apply across the account. This is always the case with every game I have ever played. They usually cost $2-5. They sometimes come in bundles which get up to $10, but it depends on the dev how they do that.

The easiest way to think about how these thing generally turn out is...

Account Upgrade = 1 time payment applies across the account (there are some evil things they can do with this though like character slot lets you create a character but if you delete it that slot is deleted as well. Most games don't do that but some do) New power type unlocks, character slot unlocks, style unlocks, area unlocks, story unlocks

Consumable = 1 time payment that allows you to take an action once. Server Transfers, Name change, Race Change, gender change, etc

Service = Reoccurring OR 1 time payment. Basically you are paying for space to be allocated on their server for you. So when you buy "My Room" or "Storage" you are renting the space on the hard drive for that item to exist. Or you are paying for something like a security check, where the payment to the system verifying that you aren't just there to spam, RMT, or troll. Both concepts are combined with chat features in that you are paying to have band width allocated to allow you to chat as well as locking those who want to spam out unless they willing to pay which means they have to put more in than they take out of the system.

There are some things that can go back and forth depending on how they do them, but you're not going to pay monthly for unlocks. At worst you are going to pay 1 time for unlocks, but that is highly unlikely. More likely is you will pay for unlocks that will give you access to getting things so that if you buy a style it will appear in a shop for all your characters if they follow closer to the PSU model of styles. If they follow closer to the PSO model then it will just appear in the styles select screen from then on.

Please note that while I am speaking in a factual tone. This is assumption based upon experience in a number of games and reason based on no company would ever do something stupid like have a cumulative reoccurring charge in a game that is marketed as F2P, because that breaks those psychological tricks and then they don't make as much money.

Though, if I remember correctly the last time I said "No Company would be stupid enough to do something stupid like..." Sega did it so either Sega does something stupid again and doesn't deserve the money or you're worrying over nothing.

In the end expect to pay $10-20 of reoccurring and then depending on how creative they are and other various factors $10-50 of stuff added to the shop every month that is 1 time purchase.


$6 is only for expanded inventory.

The premium package that Mike mentioned is similar to what you'd get if you purchased a monthly membership for a game. Many F2P MMOs are doing this nowadays, so this doesn't come as a shock. This business model is fairly popular in the East, and it is undoubtedly the future of MMOs for the West. DCUO wasn't doing very well when it launched at $15/month, but switching to the same business model that Nexon and SEGA of Japan will be using, their profits inflated quite drastically. You can expect that premium price to be around $15/30 days.

My question still stands - How do all of you plan on paying for this content? Does SEGA of Japan accept Western credit cards?

You should not bring up DCUO, STO, CO, or many of the names that have gone Freemium because they are really just barely hanging on. They switched because they had to. You can't justify paying $15 a month for those games because there is really nothing to do in them and the few things that there they are so frustratingly annoying and require several factors of luck that that people stop caring. The Beauty of PSO was that even though the rares were extremely rare and the drops were random you could cognitively keep playing and trying because you knew that if you kept trying you would eventually get it. That knowledge of "ok not this time maybe next time" is a great motivator where as those other games as well as PSU applied so many random variables that even if you did everything perfectly and got the rare thing you were still not guaranteed the prize.

That was one of the biggest mistakes of PSU in my opinion was the whole rare acquisition process. You have to get an object that says you can attempt to get it. You have to get the materials which are in themselves rare. So at that point you are up to 4 factors of randomness. Then you had to craft it and that could work or not and if it did you could get a high element % or not. Then after that you had to grind it and with each grind it could work it could break. At the end of all that it's something like 20 random factors to get something that is "worth" having, but you were excited at the first one when it dropped. And we're not even including the random factors of party members and things like that. And by the end of this entire process all you are left with is an ok item that could be better, but it's too risky, really annoyed, or happy but exhausted. So the system left you in a worse place than the previous system. end tangent.

If you want to look at a game that is Freemium that is successful you want to look at CoH or one of the number of Nexon titles. The other titles people mention the Freemium change was made to keep the game alive as their subs are/were bleeding out. Freemium games are always supported by those who are fan-boys of the game and there is almost always enough of them to keep a game running indefinitely. That's why it's such a good change after failing s hard. Because only the fan-boys are left when all the people looking for a good game have left and they are often ravenous at wanting more stuff and willing to pay for it.

[Sidney]

Thanks for the informative post, RocSage! I'm not someone who plays a lot of MMOs - or even online games, for that matter - so it was a relief to hear that Sega will likely not have a recurring charge for extra characters if they follow the model of other MMOs. You do have a point though - this is SEGA that we are dealing with, so fingers crossed that they don't break the mold with something heinously stupid.

[Jonth]

Its definitely for just the expanded storage, clearly none of you have seen a legitimate cash shop before and they are living nightmares and the enemy of all online games. Their mindset is that they are offering you a "premium gaming experience" at a higher price. A much higher price. They will do whatever it takes to get you to fork over the money, the gachas are only the beginning, and you will easily be paying $20+ per month for the things you want. The "premium package" will offer everything you want at a $2 discount, if any. Prepare to get shafted.

If by living nightmare and enemy, you mean allowing said game to thrive whereas otherwise it would have closed down, then yes, I most emphatically agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the biggest fan of them, but I look at them as a very necessary evil in some cases.

As far as playing a game that has a cash shop, I have a level 120 (Wind Archer) and a level 100 (White Knight) character on Maple Story, and Maple Story is notorious for the way it handles its cash shop. I don't think I have even spent a dime on that particular account, I just did without all the game breaking items and perks. I will say I hope SEGA won't operate their cash shop in the same way as Maple Story's.

[White]

I don't want to sound mean, but that sounds like a ridiculously stupid assumption.

Character slots are always permanent, save for in 1 game currently and they are $1/month. Character slots are also extremely cheap on the back end because Hard Drives are cheap.

Styles are 1 time purchases that apply across the account. This is always the case with every game I have ever played. They usually cost $2-5. They sometimes come in bundles which get up to $10, but it depends on the dev how they do that.

The easiest way to think about how these thing generally turn out is...

Account Upgrade = 1 time payment applies across the account (there are some evil things they can do with this though like character slot lets you create a character but if you delete it that slot is deleted as well. Most games do that but some do) New power type unlocks, character slot unlocks, style unlocks, area unlocks, story unlocks

Consumable = 1 time payment that allows you to take an action once. Server Transfers, Name change, Race Change, gender change, etc

Service = Reoccurring OR 1 time payment. Basically you are paying for space to be allocated on their server for you. So when you buy "My Room" or "Storage" you are renting the space on the hard drive for that item to exist. Or you are paying for something like a security check, where the payment to the system verifying that you aren't just there to spam, RMT, or troll. Both concepts are combined with chat features in that you are paying to have band width allocated to allow you to chat as well as locking those who want to spam out unless they willing to pay which means they have to put more in than they take out of the system.

There are some things that can go back and forth depending on how they do them, but you're not going to pay monthly for unlocks. At worst you are going to pay 1 time for unlocks, but that is highly unlikely. More likely is you will pay for unlocks that will give you access to getting things so that if you buy a style it will appear in a shop for all your characters if they follow closer to the PSU model of styles. If they follow closer to the PSO model then it will just appear in the styles select screen from then on.

Please note that while I am speaking in a factual tone. This is assumption based upon experience in a number of games and reason based on no company would ever do something stupid like have a cumulative reoccurring charge in a game that is marketed as F2P, because that breaks those psychological tricks and then they don't make as much money.

Though, if I remember correctly the last time I said "No Company would be stupid enough to do something stupid like..." Sega did it so either Sega does something stupid again and doesn't deserve the money or you're worrying over nothing.

In the end expect to pay $10-20 of reoccurring and then depending on how creative they are and other various factors $10-50 of stuff added to the shop every month that is 1 time purchase.

I honestly dont see the reason you had to post this wall of text telling me things I already know.

I dont know how PSO/PSU worked with clothing and style payments, so I dont know if those will be account bound of character bound, but they will obviously be one-time purchases. Characters are pretty much always one-time purchases and I dont recall saying they werent. They will be offering additional skill trees though, so those will be character bound.

Right now we are talking about shops, rooms, the ability to trade, etc. That are all revealed to be 30 day tickets. Based on the current price of the inventory expansion, the other expansions will be about the same price, so if there are 3 or 4 expansions then its coming out to somewhere $15-$20 recurring. If these are account wide then its $15-$20, if not it will be paid per character, so if you have lets say 2 characters, that is a few dollars right there, and then an additional $15-$20 so you're looking at $30-$40 recurring with just two characters.

I've played games that nickel and dime the crap out of you and call themselves "free to play" so its not unusual to assume the worst-case scenario.

[Misto]

You should not bring up DCUO, STO, CO, or many of the names that have gone Freemium because they are really just barely hanging on.

How are you able to make this assessment without actually being in-tune with those companies' financial reports. This statement sounds pretty bias and with very little merit behind it. Would you care to expand on the factual information of this without resorting to just conjecture and personal feelings about a game's mechanics?

[White]

If by living nightmare and enemy, you mean allowing said game to thrive whereas otherwise it would have closed down, then yes, I most emphatically agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the biggest fan of them, but I look at them as a very necessary evil in some cases.

As far as playing a game that has a cash shop, I have a level 120 (Wind Archer) and a level 100 (White Knight) character on Maple Story, and Maple Story is notorious for the way it handles its cash shop. I don't think I have even spent a dime on that particular account, I just did without all the game breaking items and perks. I will say I hope SEGA won't operate their cash shop in the same way as Maple Story's.
I see it as a necessary evil as well, I know they had trouble with the western PC servers with a $10 monthly rate, then I played a game with a cash shop and realized the ridiculous amount of money I pay them in nickels and dimes, so its not like I cant sympathize with their decision.

[Sidney]

Is it more of a necessity thing to stay afloat, or does a cash-shop have more to do with greed? That's a big curiosity on my part! Does anyone have any insight?

[Jonth]

I see it as a necessary evil as well, I know they had trouble with the western PC servers with a $10 monthly rate, then I played a game with a cash shop and realized the ridiculous amount of money I pay them in nickels and dimes, so its not like I cant sympathize with their decision.

Well I will give you that it could potentially become a horrible thing to some people. The fact is however, that I WILL NOT personally pay more than $15 a month on this game. That is just a strict boundary I put on myself. I do realize that some people get carried away with this sort of business model because there is no set limit. You can keep paying more and more to get all the things you want. That "psychological manipulation" will only work on me up until they have tricked $15 dollars out of me. If that $15 dollars doesn't get me what I think it should, I will likely stop spending that much as well.

[Zyrusticae]

Is it more of a necessity thing to stay afloat, or does a cash-shop have more to do with greed? That's a big curiosity on my part! Does anyone have any insight?
Um.

I don't know what naive world you grew up in, but all businesses operate purely for the bottom line. They only pursue PR and customer relations insofar as it contributes to the bottom line - in other words, they really don't give a toss about you.

So yes, it's greed, but can you blame them? They're just working within the boundaries of the system. :???:

[White]

Is it more of a necessity thing to stay afloat, or does a cash-shop have more to do with greed? That's a big curiosity on my part! Does anyone have any insight?
It depends. I've played a real greed-based one that offers necessary equipment, items, character skills, you name it, as a premium. They also had some horrible in-game tax on the money you spent which was retarded. In comparison, PSO2 is much more out of necessity, based on what I'm seeing, you are paying much less for one-time purchases and stuff for expanding your account and character so its pretty reasonable. It would get greedy if they started selling high-end weapons and armors and stuff in the shop and making the money you spend trade-able.

[KaoPyro]

Um.

I don't know what naive world you grew up in, but all businesses operate purely for the bottom line. They only pursue PR and customer relations insofar as it contributes to the bottom line - in other words, they really don't give a toss about you.

So yes, it's greed, but can you blame them? They're just working within the boundaries of the system. :???:

I agree with you to a certain extent. Sometimes, looking generous to customers can be in the companies best interest. A better reputation often contributes to more customers. Then more customers = more money. Also the mmo trend is going to F2P, because it's this model that seems to be winning the bottom line race. Probably from a combination of increased availability plus decrease in customer awareness of how much net expenditure they are really doing.

[goldwing]

It depends. I've played a real greed-based one that offers necessary equipment, items, character skills, you name it, as a premium. They also had some horrible in-game tax on the money you spent which was retarded. In comparison, PSO2 is much more out of necessity, based on what I'm seeing, you are paying much less for one-time purchases and stuff for expanding your account and character so its pretty reasonable. It would get greedy if they started selling high-end weapons and armors and stuff in the shop and making the money you spend trade-able.

Sorta like spiral knights?

[Jonth]

Is it more of a necessity thing to stay afloat, or does a cash-shop have more to do with greed? That's a big curiosity on my part! Does anyone have any insight?

Well, that really depends. For PSO2, it is probably more "greed" since both PSO1 and PSU lasted a respectible amount of time. I use the term greed loosely however, because I don't necessarily think a company wanting more money is greed, it becomes greed with they step outside of ethical boundaries. What those boundaries are is open to debate. Some games however need a freemium model to survive however (Dungeons and Dragons Online for example).

[Sidney]

Um.

I don't know what naive world you grew up in, but all businesses operate purely for the bottom line. They only pursue PR and customer relations insofar as it contributes to the bottom line - in other words, they really don't give a toss about you.

So yes, it's greed, but can you blame them? They're just working within the boundaries of the system. :???:

I don't know why you have to be so rude and condescending, but thanks for the answer anyhow. (I guess one shouldn't expect maturity to be in abundance in any online gaming community.) I understand that business operate on a model of profit, but I do think that consumers perceiving a company as being excessively greedy can very well drive people away. The proof is in the pudding - look at a lot of the reactions within this thread.

I don't mind paying more if it's to keep a franchise I love alive, and generating a healthy profit so they can keep coming out with new content for us. I would be grateful for that. But if it's solely to fatten their wallets, yes, I would feel upset about that. I'd like to feel I'm paying more to get something in return.



It depends. I've played a real greed-based one that offers necessary equipment, items, character skills, you name it, as a premium. They also had some horrible in-game tax on the money you spent which was retarded. In comparison, PSO2 is much more out of necessity, based on what I'm seeing, you are paying much less for one-time purchases and stuff for expanding your account and character so its pretty reasonable. It would get greedy if they started selling high-end weapons and armors and stuff in the shop and making the money you spend trade-able.
Thanks for the pleasant reply, White! Your insight is very much appreciated. :)


Well, that really depends. For PSO2, it is probably more "greed" since both PSO1 and PSU lasted a respectible amount of time. I use the term greed loosely however, because I don't necessarily think a company wanting more money is greed, it becomes greed with they step outside of ethical boundaries. What those boundaries are is open to debate. Some games however need a freemium model to survive however (Dungeons and Dragons Online for example).
Thanks! The longevity of the games on the monthly fee model (well, at least on the JP servers) made me think that the cash shop had more to do with generating additional profits than out of necessity for the franchise. I suppose I worded my question poorly, but that's exactly what I was trying to ask. I don't think generating additional profit is wrong, just, as you said, as long as it falls within ethical boundaries.

[White]

Sorta like spiral knights?
I havent played spiral knights, so i wouldnt know. The game I played had the most powerful armor in the game priced at around $1500. At some point during the endgame you realize you are paying $20-$40 for one piece of equipment that is only considered "standard" for your character and that is when you make the decision to gtfo or keep playing.

[Misto]

I don't know why you have to be so rude and condescending, but thanks for the answer anyhow. (I guess one shouldn't expect maturity to be in abundance in any online gaming community.) I understand that business operate on a model of profit, but I do think that consumers perceiving a company as being excessively greedy can very well drive people away. The proof is in the pudding - look at a lot of the reactions within this thread.

That was hardly condescending. It is a naive viewpoint to think the company will shy away from a method which will provide them longer term profits. There should be no reason to upset by people that wish to be profitable on something that is a luxury.

[KaoPyro]

That was hardly condescending. It is a naive viewpoint to think the company will shy away from a method which will provide them longer term profits. There should be no reason to upset by people that wish to be profitable on something that is a luxury.

please understand words such as "naive" or "ignorant" have a negative connotation, despite their literal definition. "Uninformed viewpoint" is probably a better way to phrase it on the internet.

[Sidney]

That was hardly condescending. It is a naive viewpoint to think the company will shy away from a method which will provide them longer term profits. There should be no reason to upset by people that wish to be profitable on something that is a luxury.

You can answer a question in a way that doesn't insult a person's intelligence. Frankly, a lot of people can be really brusque and crass in the way the treat other people on here, and for a niche community that's rather small, I don't think that's an ideal way to treat each other. We're mostly adults here, so I do think we should act accordingly. There's many times where I've been pushed away from even wanting to play PSU/PSO by the rude attitude of the community, and that's a problem.

Also, I don't think it's illogical to ask whether the company made the decision to switch business models because they were struggling to stay afloat using the old methods, or whether they were doing fine before and simply looking to generate more profits. I was merely curious about their reasoning to switch.

[Misto]

You can answer a question in a way that doesn't insult a person's intelligence. Frankly, a lot of people can be really brusque and crass in the way the treat other people on here, and for a niche community that's rather small, I don't think that's an ideal way to treat each other. We're mostly adults here, so I do think we should act accordingly. There's many times where I've been pushed away from even wanting to play PSU/PSO by the rude attitude of the community, and that's a problem.

Also, I don't think it's illogical to ask whether the company made the decision to switch business models because they were struggling to stay afloat using the old methods, or whether they were doing fine before and simply looking to generate more profits. I was merely curious about their reasoning to switch.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. While "naive" might have a negative connotation, it doesn't imply anyone being condescending necessarily and since text on a small post like that has no real tone to it, I don't think it is worth assuming malicious intent in the poster's words. And since we are being adults here it is worth noting that one should try not to assume malice intent simply because of one's perception of a word despite its literal definition being accurate. Your question about greed does imply either malicious or unethical intent over making profits, so it's fair to consider that naive.

[Ark22]

How bout we stop arguing and wait for official confirmation. No one likes to ASS-sume

[KaoPyro]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. While "naive" might have a negative connotation, it doesn't imply anyone being condescending necessarily and since text on a small post like that has no real tone to it, I don't think it is worth assuming malicious intent in the poster's words. And since we are being adults here it is worth noting that one should try not to assume malice intent simply because of one's perception of a word despite its literal definition being accurate. Your question about greed does imply either malicious or unethical intent over making profits, so it's fair to consider that naive.

That's what "negative connotation" means. It means the word has a negative tone/feeling to it and, will likely come off as rude or condescending. All words have feelings associated with them, which is why diction is particularly important on the internet.

back to topic, do we know what our initial inventory capacity is?

[RocSage]

I honestly dont see the reason you had to post this wall of text telling me things I already know.

I dont know how PSO/PSU worked with clothing and style payments, so I dont know if those will be account bound of character bound, but they will obviously be one-time purchases. Characters are pretty much always one-time purchases and I dont recall saying they werent. They will be offering additional skill trees though, so those will be character bound.

Right now we are talking about shops, rooms, the ability to trade, etc. That are all revealed to be 30 day tickets. Based on the current price of the inventory expansion, the other expansions will be about the same price, so if there are 3 or 4 expansions then its coming out to somewhere $15-$20 recurring. If these are account wide then its $15-$20, if not it will be paid per character, so if you have lets say 2 characters, that is a few dollars right there, and then an additional $15-$20 so you're looking at $30-$40 recurring with just two characters.

I've played games that nickel and dime the crap out of you and call themselves "free to play" so its not unusual to assume the worst-case scenario.

Then you are not thinking things out. Sega is not likely to nickel and dime people and reoccurring stuff will likely be balanced around $15. $15 is well know to be way over price for games, but it's allowed because it is considered the standard. The reoccurring stuff is not the bread winner when you are talking about Freemium stuff. It's the stuff like styles and consumables. It's the little knick knacks that get people.

It's because, as hinted at, the more you have reoccurring the more you have to make the argument there is something new for you to do every month. The higher the charge is the harder the sell. The trick of the Freemium models is to charge you little amount that you can justify which add up over time. Reoccurring is the antithesis of that model.

Also the skill tree expansions... I think they'll be 1 time unlockables, but they could go either way.

I don't know quite how to explain it, but it's a bit of what's more likely to get the most money. For example styles are one time cross account because if they aren't then every style that comes up will be questioned as am i ever going to use this and if I am then when I do i'll get this, rather than oh look a new style I'll get that now so if i ever want to combine it with something randomly i'll have the option.

Those are 2 different ways of thinking and both exist. 1 character unlockable puts everyone in the first category which means everyone is thinking on that level with every piece where and making it account unlockable caters to both and you end up getting money from some things that would otherwise never be bought.

More or less what I'm saying is it's all about psychological mind games when you're thinking about this stuff. Some companies have more leeway, some are smarter, some are dumber, and some are more or less moral. Sega is a fairly big company and a fairly consistent company so (yes even in their stupid crazy mistakes) so it is easy to say that more than likely you aren't going to have some crazy reoccurring thing, even if you have all 12 character slots.



How are you able to make this assessment without actually being in-tune with those companies' financial reports. This statement sounds pretty bias and with very little merit behind it. Would care to expand on the factual information of this without resorting to just conjecture and personal feelings about a game's mechanics?

By being observant and knowledgeable. You can tell how well a game is doing by watching it's player base. How vocal and excited it is how many people you come across when online, what they're like. If you look at their auction houses you can get a pretty clear grasp of how well the community is working together. How easy or hard it is to pick up a party and when you're in a party how skilled and knowledgeable about the game people are. Because subscription based games are subscription based you can roughly estimate how much money is being taken in and tell the health of the "money" aspect based on the health of the player base.

There are other indicators like in CO's case one of the head developers said the game sucked a year before it launched. STO launched broken and one of the importantly developers skipped work during an MMO's most important time. DCUO had really simple problems in beta that everyone ignored reporting because they were so simple, basic, and apparent that everyone just assumed the developers would fix them. FFXIV was a mess and even though I was guaranteed buy for that game since it's announcement after being in it's alpha I knew it wouldn't do well for several reasons, but it came out, shortly after it launched, that several basic mechanic in the game were not even done being programmed.

All of those games are never going to get more subscribers and the longer they go on, because they're constantly trying to stop the dam from completely bursting results in them losing more and more subscribers. It's only obvious that the last ones around are those that are the most illogical about the game and will stick with it till its gone. It's also well known that these types of fans often will get anything that has anything to do with the thing they love.

This is all fairly predictable due to subscriptions, relatively known server costs, and those types of things. You don't need to be on the inside, because you can estimate from all the other numbers you can find.

Now if you want to see something interesting that is pretty hard to predict watch Star Wars: the Old Republic. That game will have something really interesting happen to it within the next 3-4 months. The reason for it is because they have a huge production budget and due to the corner it's gotten into it might suddenly die from it's 1.5 million user base. Or it might gain momentum and take out WoW. I'm bettering the former, but like i said, whichever way it goes it will be interesting.

[White]

Then you are not thinking things out. Sega is not likely to nickel and dime people and reoccurring stuff will likely be balanced around $15. $15 is well know to be way over price for games, but it's allowed because it is considered the standard. The reoccurring stuff is not the bread winner when you are talking about Freemium stuff. It's the stuff like styles and consumables. It's the little knick knacks that get people.

It's because, as hinted at, the more you have reoccurring the more you have to make the argument there is something new for you to do every month. The higher the charge is the harder the sell. The trick of the Freemium models is to charge you little amount that you can justify which add up over time. Reoccurring is the antithesis of that model.

Also the skill tree expansions... I think they'll be 1 time unlockables, but they could go either way.

I don't know quite how to explain it, but it's a bit of what's more likely to get the most money. For example styles are one time cross account because if they aren't then every style that comes up will be questioned as am i ever going to use this and if I am then when I do i'll get this, rather than oh look a new style I'll get that now so if i ever want to combine it with something randomly i'll have the option.

Those are 2 different ways of thinking and both exist. 1 character unlockable puts everyone in the first category which means everyone is thinking on that level with every piece where and making it account unlockable caters to both and you end up getting money from some things that would otherwise never be bought.

More or less what I'm saying is it's all about psychological mind games when you're thinking about this stuff. Some companies have more leeway, some are smarter, some are dumber, and some are more or less moral. Sega is a fairly big company and a fairly consistent company so (yes even in their stupid crazy mistakes) so it is easy to say that more than likely you aren't going to have some crazy reoccurring thing, even if you have all 12 character slots.




By being observant and knowledgeable. You can tell how well a game is doing by watching it's player base. How vocal and excited it is how many people you come across when online, what they're like. If you look at their auction houses you can get a pretty clear grasp of how well the community is working together. How easy or hard it is to pick up a party and when you're in a party how skilled and knowledgeable about the game people are. Because subscription based games are subscription based you can roughly estimate how much money is being taken in and tell the health of the "money" aspect based on the health of the player base.

There are other indicators like in CO's case one of the head developers said the game sucked a year before it launched. STO launched broken and one of the importantly developers skipped work during an MMO's most important time. DCUO had really simple problems in beta that everyone ignored reporting because they were so simple, basic, and apparent that everyone just assumed the developers would fix them. FFXIV was a mess and even though I was guaranteed buy for that game since it's announcement after being in it's alpha I knew it wouldn't do well for several reasons, but it came out, shortly after it launched, that several basic mechanic in the game were not even done being programmed.

All of those games are never going to get more subscribers and the longer they go on, because they're constantly trying to stop the dam from completely bursting results in them losing more and more subscribers. It's only obvious that the last ones around are those that are the most illogical about the game and will stick with it till its gone. It's also well known that these types of fans often will get anything that has anything to do with the thing they love.

This is all fairly predictable due to subscriptions, relatively known server costs, and those types of things. You don't need to be on the inside, because you can estimate from all the other numbers you can find.

Now if you want to see something interesting that is pretty hard to predict watch Star Wars: the Old Republic. That game will have something really interesting happen to it within the next 3-4 months. The reason for it is because they have a huge production budget and due to the corner it's gotten into it might suddenly die from it's 1.5 million user base. Or it might gain momentum and take out WoW. I'm bettering the former, but like i said, whichever way it goes it will be interesting.
FFS I'm not reading that. Can you give me the TL;DR version?

[Sidney]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. While "naive" might have a negative connotation, it doesn't imply anyone being condescending necessarily and since text on a small post like that has no real tone to it, I don't think it is worth assuming malicious intent in the poster's words. And since we are being adults here it is worth noting that one should try not to assume malice intent simply because of one's perception of a word despite its literal definition being accurate. Your question about greed does imply either malicious or unethical intent over making profits, so it's fair to consider that naive.

I understand where you are coming from, but the poster didn't say my idea was simply naive - if zie had simply said, "I think that's naive", I don't think I would have been upset in the least. The way it was phrased, "Um, I don't know what kind of naive world you grew up in..." isn't exactly the most polite way of phrasing things, and came across as a bit condescending to me. I just think, as people who all love Phantasy Star, and want to support the game and the community, we should be more excellent to eachother, to quote Bill and Ted. :) Part of seeing the game succeed is having a strong community, and we don't want to push people away.

But I'm all for dropping this and moving on with the discussion as well! Tally ho!

[KaoPyro]

By being observant and knowledgeable. You can tell how well a game is doing by watching it's player base. How vocal and excited it is how many people you come across when online, what they're like. If you look at their auction houses you can get a pretty clear grasp of how well the community is working together. How easy or hard it is to pick up a party and when you're in a party how skilled and knowledgeable about the game people are. Because subscription based games are subscription based you can roughly estimate how much money is being taken in and tell the health of the "money" aspect based on the health of the player base.


Interesting political science study here. What you hear is not 100% what the actual opinion is. swtor suffered greatly from a "vocal minority" and trolls that had an over-all negative tone. On the flips side, there were several justified complaints that came out of it to. So the question that must be answered is how accurate is the observed information. I, for one, don't have an answer.

[Ark22]

Why must you guys 1-up each other haha, can we just wait till after the closed beta to point fingers?

[Skye-Fox713]

Well if they don't have anything for perminant purchase I probably won't be spending any money at all on PSO2.

[RocSage]

FFS I'm not reading that. Can you give me the TL;DR version?

No. Stop being a twit.



As far as the whole company being greedy or staying afloat. It matters who you are talking about. Some companies are purely charitable and don't care about money in any other way than they are getting it and giving it to charity. Others care only about how much money they are getting. Others are more artistic driven and only care in so much as it allows them to keep producing.

On the internet we're finding that there is this balance that is being struck where if you go "I'm charging this because i think with this i can eat and such" then people will be more apt to buy and the people more likely to do that are also more apt to do more so there is this symbiosis of non-greediness going on. The various greedy corps are being dragged into this paradigm, but games still aren't there yet, unfortunately.

[Razelis]

lol watch how SEGA makes an event where we need to collect 10 different colored photon drops each color taking inventory space just to push us to buy this stuff... ( > . >

As for the question: what happens when we don't continue paying for storage slot

Answer: Nothing (no your items dont gets locked). While not confirmed, in most games you can ONLY retrieve items and then lose the slot until continue paying again.

For inventory I suppose it will just count as full after dropping/selling or using items until the actual slot size is reached and only then slots will start to free up in it

[RocSage]

Interesting political science study here. What you hear is not 100% what the actual opinion is. swtor suffered greatly from a "vocal minority" and trolls that had an over-all negative tone. On the flips side, there were several justified complaints that came out of it to. So the question that must be answered is how accurate is the observed information. I, for one, don't have an answer.

With SWtOR as I pointed out there are a lot of issues with it. The main problem I see with it though which is the killer is that the game is predicated on the story telling which is high production. This costs a ton of money to do and takes a bit of time to create new content. So what you have is a team that is rushing to produce content as time ticks away and people realize they aren't getting enough content for the $15 and once enough realize that then the production collapses and as it collapses the user base collapses rapidly. Depends on how they handle it really, but because they are uniquely story based with high production it's hard to figure out just what exactly their plans are.

As far as observations about other games. Yeah there is a lot of studies you could conduct on everything i mentioned and you'd probably find out a lot of interesting stuff, but I've only heard of a few papers that even remotely take on the subject. I have no idea why scientists don't regularly mine through MMOs because when you create one you are literally creating a new culture with a new economy with groups that create new politics and moral systems. One game could probably mined for an entire life time's work for a scientist.

[Xenobia]

I do disapprove from that kind of F2P content, because i dont know how big the initial space will be like. In term its very short crap such as FF14, then it will be a big mess not to rent the room... stuff like that should never be on rent. I still dont know how big of an impact it will become, so i cant judge at that point. But generally i can say that the space on online games is always to short... and its one of the biggest annoyance which is actually artificially human created... its not a nature nor a tech disaster, its artificially created. Item space is a element which is available in near endless quantity, when it comes to technical bounds. There is indeed a online game with near endless item space, its called EVEonline. The biggest issue is traffic, but only hardcore gamer do create lot of traffic.

[NoiseHERO]

Funny how all you have to do to get someone to write a whole essay is disagree with them on the internet.

High-school teachers and College professors should be studying this.

[White]

The bottom line is that sega needs money and they are going to use the cash shop to do it. Its not going to be forgiving on anyone's wallet if they want something, but it isnt going to be like paying a mortgage payment either.

[Ark22]

15 bucks a month is nothing. if someone only wants to have storage (like me) I can save money and just get that seeing I don't care about rooms. 6 vs 15 I am ok with that. You guys just need to find a job or something because there is no excuse to pay 6 bucks a month plus it's optional.

[Xenobia]

15$ a month, is NOT nothing. It will sum up to close to 1000$ in 5+ years. Some people cant even afford a proper PC and are asking for 500$ builds but many people are willing to spend 15$ a month... there is probably something screwed up inside certain brains. :-? I mean i can understand when we have certain rich people who can spare 10 000$ on a cash shop and i dont care, but in term they say "its nothing" then they certainly dont know how to get rich, and its a wonder they got rich at all.

But i know the strategy on how to leech limited entitys: Tell them that they will be able to run PSO2 on a rusty VW beetle.. then they use some cheap build. While ingame they will pull out all the cash they can get, day by day and year by year.. and someday they will notice "oops... i didnt realize that i already paid several times the price of my rusty VW beetle", well done Sega.

To be fair: Everyone is free not to pay... thats the advantage of it, and limited gameplay is still possible. However, it can be very hard to avoid using "cash shop" in some terms. As long as people feel like "its nothing", they wont realize how harsh a adding up can behave like. So its something to take care about and brain should be used excessively.


The "premium package" is very likely to cost the same as a monthly fee, so your fears are unwarranted.

The game's basically P2P at this point, except without the caveat that you completely lose access to your characters if you don't pay (you just lose room access, storage, and other assorted perks).

Thats still a improvement, because in PSU (Xbox) im not willing to pay anymore and i cant even log into the game anymore... :-( No pay = game has ended for you, completly and ultimately.

Take into account, at PSU i had to pay like 70$ for the game initial cost. Now at PSO2 it seems like that the initial price will be free... so it means i did already save up 70$. Almost half year of premium i guess but i dunno price yet.

[Krank32oz]

Man the more i hear about this stuff the less excited I become. I understand everything they are doing and that it works well with the majority but I just cant seem to shake this feeling like they are trying to trick me or something. Like i get all pumped up for this then surprise, you have to pay fees now for pretty important things. Anyone else feel this way even in the slightest bit?

[Xenobia]

Well the JP people, i dunno.. i mean in FF14 you pay like 1$ for every additional character every single month. The space is like 80 slots and 30? more slots cost like another 1$ a month.. and stuff like that. ON TOP OF THE like 14$ monthly fee (which will always apply). Sorry i cant remember accurate value anymore but its just here in order to tell its system.

Another example: Tera Online, JP people pay like 30$ a month for it (almost double of EU price). Its a wonder they dont moan.. :D Well i cant say how they think about but in term they are happy with they seems to have a lot of bucks to burn... And i dont know of a single japanese game with enough of item space, nope. Item space is a remnant from the western nations...

My mind is ieeks.... i could buy a super power PC with every 5 year in term i pass on playing 2 of such games. ;) Hard decision.

[reptile7383]

15$ a month, is NOT nothing. It will sum up to close to 1000$ in 5+ years. Some people cant even afford a proper PC and are asking for 500$ builds but many people are willing to spend 15$ a month... there is probably something screwed up inside certain brains. :-? I mean i can understand when we have certain rich people who can spare 10 000$ on a cash shop and i dont care, but in term they say "its nothing" then they certainly dont know how to get rich, and its a wonder they got rich at all.

But i know the strategy on how to leech limited entitys: Tell them that they will be able to run PSO2 on a rusty VW beetle.. then they use some cheap build. While ingame they will pull out all the cash they can get, day by day and year by year.. and someday they will notice "oops... i didnt realize that i already paid several times the price of my rusty VW beetle", well done Sega.

To be fair: Everyone is free not to pay... thats the advantage of it, and limited gameplay is still possible. However, it can be very hard to avoid using "cash shop" in some terms. And as long as people feel like "its nothing", they wont realize how harsh a adding up can behave like.


$15 a month is nothing if you get a lot of enjoyment out of the game. You could be spending $60 on a game that wont even last you a month. I would gladly pay close to $1000 total for a game over 5 years if it means that I end up buying one less game each month. I'll probably be saving something like $40 every month that I continue to play this game. $15 is nothing in comparison.

[Zyrusticae]

15$ a month, is NOT nothing. It will sum up to close to 1000$ in 5+ years.

[snip]
And this is just kind of silly.

Come on, over five years. Unless you have no income, you really shouldn't be worried about paying off $900 over the course of five years. And if you really can't afford it, you have bigger issues and should probably be looking into how you can improve your financial situation, NOT looking into as-yet unreleased games that are practically guaranteed to be designed to siphon money from your wallet...

[Misto]

And this is just kind of silly.

Come on, over five years. Unless you have no income, you really shouldn't be worried about paying off $900 over the course of five years. And if you really can't afford it, you have bigger issues and should probably be looking into how you can improve your financial situation, NOT looking into as-yet unreleased games that are practically guaranteed to be designed to siphon money from your wallet...

Agreed, the game should not be having that kind of priority in your life if money is super tight. Saying it will add up to some big number over such a long period of time is just making it sound scarier than it actually is.

[Xenobia]

I know people they play on PCs older than 5 years... not everyone is as rich such as you guys. Anyway, they are free not to pay, thats it. Just hope they can still enjoy the game in a good manner, without limitations being to critical.

[Polantaris]

"Freemium" means "Upgradable Restricted Demo with Unlimited Play"

Really? I didn't know the lack of your Room, Trading, and less Storage space meant that the entire game was a Demo if you don't pay. So what's all that gameplay content? You know, the bulk of the game? It's all Demo? Huh.

If the Free Storage/Inventory Space is the way it was in the Alpha, you have plenty of space. You have 60 Character slots and 100 Storage slots. Unless you're stockpiling weapons, you have nothing to worry about. If you're stockpiling weapons, you're probably paying for the expansion anyway.

Considering there's not even that much in terms of weapons and armor, you're not going to be able to fill that up anytime soon anyway.

Honestly, what did "Premium" in PSU get you? Trading, Room, Extra Storage, and End-Game features. All at, what was it, 1500Yen/mo? We're dealing with the exact same business model here. You could pay even more for special weapons (Replace weapons with Costumes now, which is a FAR SUPERIOR tradeoff), and to top if off there's no GAS system to lose if you don't pay.

You get the bulk of the game, and lose some side systems that are mostly vanity, and you guys act like it's the end of the world.

The only major issue is the lack of being able to have 4 character slots without paying. Oh well, considering you can change Types with no worries, and no major disadvantages (It's basically like starting over when you change types), you're not losing much by not having multiple characters. The only thing you lose is the ability to take advantage of other race benefits, which in the end aren't even a big deal.

You guys need to stop overreacting about everything. SEGA needs to make money somehow. They've already shown that they're having money issues. Is it really a big surprise that they are trying to get as much money out of this as possible? You can still play the game itself at absolutely no charge. What is there to complain about? That you might have to pay some extra to get some extra benefits? You guys should rethink your complaints.

Side note: Didn't I read at some point that FUN Gacha will have costumes in it? Plus there will be an NPC that sells non Arks Cash costumes? I could have swore I read that on these forums at some point.

[Misto]

I know people they play on PCs older than 5 years... not everyone is as rich such as you guys.

I am by no means rich, but I am fiscally responsible enough to know if $1000 over five years is a strain, I probably shouldn't be playing this game.

[KaoPyro]

15$ a month, is NOT nothing. It will sum up to close to 1000$ in 5+ years.

The interesting bit is millions of people pay close to 15$ a month for services like netflix, when they don't even use it as much as mmos would get played (disclaimer, this is in respect to each media's target audience). For a person who works for a living, 15$ really is nothing. At the same time, it is still a barrier. Especially for kids who have parental overhead when it comes to money.

F2P is a winning strategy. It's unfortunately that it can be abused so easily. Let us hope the rules of supply/demand regulate it well.

[Xenobia]

Ah yes? And how comes so many people gasp at me when i say "good PC cost 1000$"? It will last at least 5 good years...

Besides, i never paid a single buck for netflix. ;) I only watch free SAT and in term i want to see sports.. i know enough of people who pay for it, so i can watch at theyr location.

Well, thats where my bucks for good PCs is coming from... raising efficiency. ;) By no means rich, just very effective with economy.

[terrell707]

Aren't things typically more expensive in Japan than they are in US? So when the game gets localized, wouldn't the price drop a little.

[Ark22]

Not to be mean but I make more than $2000 a year so I have no problem and anyone who works will have no problem. Maybe something is wrong with your brain *cough* nah just kidding. But don't group everyone up, if people can afford it they can it's not like we get a huge advantage just more stuff and less time worrying about what to keep and stuff.

If you have no money just play it for free and manage your stuff carefully, if you played PSO having a room is NOT big deal.

[Misto]

Ah yes? And how comes so many people gasp at me when i say "good PC cost 1000$"? It will last at least 5 good years...

Besides, i never paid a single buck for netflix. ;) I only watch free SAT and in term i want to see sports.. i know enough of people who pay for it, so i can watch at theyr location.

So essentially you leech off others? Not that that is a bad thing, but why not just do the same with your other PSO buddies?

[kyuuketsuki]

Aren't things typically more expensive in Japan than they are in US? So when the game gets localized, wouldn't the price drop a little.
That doesn't apply with virtual goods. They can charge whatever they want, so it might be more, it might be less, or they might go with a straight conversion and make it $6.

Besides, if we don't have an actual separate release but will simply use the same client and servers with a drop-down selection to change text and UI elements to English (which seems likely to be the case), then we'll definitely be paying the exact same prices as what the JP players do.

[Xenobia]

Aren't things typically more expensive in Japan than they are in US? So when the game gets localized, wouldn't the price drop a little.
There is no reason to drop price. Thats up to theyr own choice. Usualy price are dropped because US simply arnt willing to pay for.. its a demand and supply question, nothing else. Supply in that term is endless but demand is not endless.. price does play a role. Its important not to get over the limit of "ouch, thats to much for me... im gonna pass".

Not that i support that view. My mind is to have same price for whole world... finish!

@Misto, i dont leech them, those people enjoy when i visit them and watch at theyr location, so its kind of a double win... so there is no reason to pay for it in my term. But its rather rarely, im not that much of a sports freak.

[DoubleJG]

If you want to look at a game that is Freemium that is successful you want to look at CoH or one of the number of Nexon titles. The other titles people mention the Freemium change was made to keep the game alive as their subs are/were bleeding out. Freemium games are always supported by those who are fan-boys of the game and there is almost always enough of them to keep a game running indefinitely. That's why it's such a good change after failing s hard. Because only the fan-boys are left when all the people looking for a good game have left and they are often ravenous at wanting more stuff and willing to pay for it.

Actually, DCUO going F2P was and continues to be a huge success. Their player-base and revenue skyrocketed once the transition was made. Mentioning them is very appropriate, as their business model is "pay to play your way", similar to what PSO2's will be.

[Link1275]

There is no reason to drop price. Thats up to theyr own choice. Usualy price are dropped because US simply arnt willing to pay for.. its a demand and supply question, nothing else.

@Misto, i dont leech them, those people enjoy when i visit them and watch at theyr location, so its kind of a double win... so there is no reason to pay for it in my term. But its rather rarely, im not that much of a sports freak.
The laws of supply and demand.... Why did you have to bring that into this debate? True, most US players are not as likely to pay $6 for something so trivial. False, not all will or will not pay $6 for a virtual item that's going to go away in 30 days.

[shiink]

Even though I will say that a lot of this moaning and groaning is a little bit much, because In many respects I like the ability to choose what I can or will pay for in the game. Meaning that if it's not something that I find necessary to have, I simply won't buy it. I pretty much have intended on spending money on this game, so that wasn't ever an issue to me. However, it's when things begin to become unreasonable that its an issue. I don't mind forking over $$ initially for somewhat basic functions. It's really the recurring thing that is starting to seem really irritating. There are enough people that will spend LOTS of money on little nick-nacks like costumes, consumables and other extraneous features that SEGA could reap a lot of revenue from. (Even I would buy some of those things)

I'm aware that this is pretty much a redundancy of what other people have said. With all that said I guess we will have to see how else our wallets will get sucked dry. Who knows, maybe some packaged deals will actually be reasonable.

[Xenobia]

Even when it cost 18$ a month, its not more than the cost i had on PSU. Even better without auto charge. In that term i get more, for same... on F2P.


The laws of supply and demand.... Why did you have to bring that into this debate? True, most US players are not as likely to pay $6 for something so trivial. False, not all will or will not pay $6 for a virtual item that's going to go away in 30 days.
I added it already, the supply is indeed endless, but the demand isnt. Means they have to adjust price according to the most effective demand ratio for the supply provided. JP didnt get rich without the ability to calculate, finally its all about "getting the most out of it".

[Rizen]

Funny how all you have to do to get someone to write a whole essay is disagree with them on the internet.

High-school teachers and College professors should be studying this.
For once, you have commentary that I can actually get behind!


Even when it cost 18$ a month, its not more than the cost i had on PSU. Even better without auto charge. In that term i get more, for same... on F2P.
Pretty much what I have been saying this whole time. People who already played PSO and PSU won't have that many issues with the "Freemium" system.

[Zorafim]

I'd join in the discussion, and weigh the pros and cons of purchasing extra bag space, but...

All I'm seeing is, spend $6 a month for something that will barely help you. If bagspace costs this much, what about myroom? Shop and trading? Clothing? I paid twice that much for full access for a game. The price doesn't seem right, at all.
I know that, technically speaking, I have a budget of $50 when I start the game and $10 a month after that. But if everything else costs this much, I can see myself exceeding that budget.

No, the only reaction I can give is exactly what I gave in my first post.
[spoiler-box]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB-8UQ4AigI
[/spoiler-box]

[Zyrusticae]

What I don't understand is, if it barely helps you... why do you feel the need to buy it? If you're not going to buy it, and it barely makes a difference, why complain about it?

And why go into baseless speculation about with the price of everything else will be? I mean, golly, you have no idea what everything else is going to cost...

[Zio23]

i think as long as they don't make core components to the game have to be bought through the cash shop it will be ok. Inventory space/cool gear/meseta/ all that stuff thats fine to me, thats what cash shops are for, obviously they have to have some reason for people to buy the stuff there.

[Xenobia]

Dont get me wrong, im a big supporter of F2P. But the stuff surely have to be fair priced in some way. Anyway, in term its barely any use... i dont need it, thats indeed true. May others pay a lot for and grant me with Segas dev power.

[Lance813]

You guys are seriously ridiculous... $15/month is what you'd be paying for a monthly subscription. This thread is a joke and should probably be locked.

If you were planning on playing PSO2 before we heard it was F2P then stop complaining... If you aren't planning on playing, then why are you even here?

[CelestialBlade]

At least they've stuck with the one thing I hoped they'd do from the beginning: they're not structuring the cash shop in a way that gives you a direct advantage over another player. That is, you can't buy weapons and such from there, mostly cosmetic things and ways to make the game somewhat easier as of now. That could of course change, but personally I don't have a big problem with the cash shop as is as long as they stick with that idea.

As has been stated in this thread before, you can still play this game 100% free and get pretty much everything out of it. You can still try a very large portion of the game before you'd want to spend a single dollar on it. They'll profit as long as they put out a good product.

[kyuuketsuki]

You guys are seriously ridiculous... $15/month is what you'd be paying for a monthly subscription.
What is $15/mo? Nowhere is $15/mo mentioned. We have no idea what the prices will be for other things. It could very well work out to significantly more than $15/mo for your monthly trading/storage/myroom/myshop package rental plus doing gachas for outfits and whatever else. Or it might not. We don't know yet.

All we know is that they're charging the equivalent of $6 just to unlock some extra storage space for a month. That's not encouraging. Say they charge $6/mo each for your myroom unlock, to unlock trading, and to unlock your shop. That's $24/mo right off the bat.
This thread is a joke and should probably be locked.
Or, how about, if you don't like it, don't participate in the discussion. This thread is breaking no rules, and no one cares if you think it's a "joke".
If you were planning on playing PSO2 before we heard it was F2P then stop complaining... If you aren't planning on playing, then why are you even here?
Paying a flat monthly fee for a complete game isn't the same as being nickled-and-dimed through various micro-transactions and timed rentals for in-game services, especially if it works out to more than a standard $15/mo (though really, the standard for PSO/PSU has always been $10/mo, not $15) subscription fee.

[Xenobia]

The standart PSU P2P fee on XBL for my nation was 18$. US was 10$ indeed, but that doesnt help me... out in order to get some more sandwiches a month, im kinda skinny ya know!

US got close to highest Sandwich Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index).. and still lower fee ...

In fastest earned (big mac to work time ratio):
1. Japan
2. US

Most expensive each unit:
1. Switzerland
2. Norway

[CelestialBlade]

Paying a flat monthly fee for a complete game isn't the same as being nickled-and-dimed through various micro-transactions and timed rentals for in-game services, especially if it works out to more than a standard $15/mo (though really, the standard for PSO/PSU has always been $10/mo, not $15) subscription fee.
Certainly true, but I personally like having the option of what I choose to throw at Sega per month. Maybe the first month I put in $30, $45 for some outfits and such, but the next couple of months I don't buy anything. I'm sure most players will end up averaging out to $15/mo or so, thus Sega still profits, but at least I have an option now. If I decide to put down the game for a few months and then decide I wanna slice some Rappies in half, I don't have to pay to do so.

[kyuuketsuki]

That's true, and I don't mean to seem like I'm outraged or anything... yet. I'll withhold my outrage until we know exactly what all the prices are and can gauge how much it'll cost to play the game with the features I want.

[Lance813]

I'll withhold my outrage until we know exactly what all the prices are and can gauge how much it'll cost to play the game with the features I want.

Yeah, do that. I was speculating on the price of premium service. It'll be anywhere between $13-18 bucks. A bunch of people complaining about paying a few bucks to play a game they can play for free is a joke. The only reason I said this thread should be locked is because people are starting to be unreasonable, just like when PSU was about to be released, and infractions are going to be handed out.

So don't come at me. It's childish.

[kyuuketsuki]

Yeah, do that.
Oh good. I love it when people who come into a thread just to bash everyone else get all condescending when they're called out on it.

Your speculation on the pricing is baseless and, therefore, doesn't serve as an excuse for calling people "ridiculous" on their speculation that it might be significantly more than what you think. Oh, and nobody needs your permission to complain or even be in the forums at all, just so you know.
So don't come at me. It's childish.
:roll:

[Ark22]

I think lance was saying $15 bucks what if it did cost that much per month.

Besides that people on here are tripping a lot. :'(

[Zinaida]

Are people seriously making criticisms based only on assumptions? I'm more of a realist, but it's really pessimistic for some to start criticizing something they only know a portion about.

Anyway, if it's $15 a month I'll pay if I can get access to Arks Cash, and if it's any higher I'll probably just buy what is most necessary. Rooms are a luxury, you don't need a room for a shop and storage probably won't be an issue since I only carry the items I actually use.

[Ark22]

Hell don't forget, if you combine Arkz cash with FUN points you don't have to buy certain things like hair and costumes, so you could be saving money with the FUN points.

[Macman]

$6 just for a bank expander that will go away in a month? That's outright robbery.
If extra item slots are going for that much, imagine how much the IMPORTANT shit like trading/character slots are gonna go for.

You guys ready to pay $30+ a month for features that most games would give for free? :disapprove:

[kyuuketsuki]

I think lance was saying $15 bucks what if it did cost that much per month.
Well that'd be swell. But we have no idea if it will or won't (based on $6/mo just to get some additional storage space, it's reasonable to think it might be more). I don't see the need or the purpose to attack everyone who he disagrees with in one fell swoop calling them "ridiculous" and the thread a "joke" and then going on to pretend that people need his permission to complain about something or even visit these forums at all.

Anyway, enough of derailing the thread, I'm done with it.

[Skyly]

Are people seriously making criticisms based only on assumptions? I'm more of a realist, but it's really pessimistic for some to start criticizing something they only know a portion about.

Anyway, if it's $15 a month I'll pay if I can get access to Arks Cash, and if it's any higher I'll probably just buy what is most necessary. Rooms are a luxury, you don't need a room for a shop and storage probably won't be an issue since I only carry the items I actually use.

This is true all the way around.

[Ark22]

Well that'd be swell. But we have no idea if it will or won't (based on $6/mo just to get some additional storage space, it's reasonable to think it might be more). I don't see the need or the purpose to attack everyone who he disagrees with in one fell swoop calling them "ridiculous" and the thread a "joke" and then going on to pretend that people need his permission to complain about something or even visit these forums at all.

Anyway, enough of derailing the thread, I'm done with it.

It's ok man..I will give you a hug in the beta.

[Omega-z]

The thing is the basic will most likely have 40 slots open on character and 100 in bank. There's no point in getting the extra unless one hordes. Weapon's won't become worthless like in PSU and they be changed how you see fit in-game without RL$. Now PSU had a Permanent payment for extra space at $12 for 500 slots. And there could be a work around to this anyway's which could be better in the long run or at least cheaper. I need more info on AC price's Before I go on with my idea.

[kyuuketsuki]

The thing is the basic will must like have 40 slots open on character and 100 in bank.
Huh? Is this you making numbers up or is there something to support this?
There's no point in getting the extra unless one hordes. Weapon's won't become worthless like in PSU and they be changed how you see fit in-game without RL$.
Umm, I dunno where you're getting this. You're not going to be using a 1* weapon 'til end-game just because you can upgrade it via grinders and the like. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean?
Now PSU had a Permanent payment for extra space at $12 for 500 slots.
Much better than $6/mo. Though who would pay monthly if you could do a permanent option that only costs the equivalent of 2 or 3 months rental? It'd be inane to even have the option.
And there could be a work around to this any way's which could be better in the long run or at least cheaper.
Maybe. Maybe not.

[Mike]

According to the latest Syogai PSO update, Sakai told that

inventory expansion per 30 days will cost 500 yen（ ≒6$）

However, he hasn't disclosed the price of any other items or services.

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2012/04/120419a.html

Late to this thread but he doesn't say it will cost 500 yen for a storage expansion. He says charging 500 yen for a storage expansion is a possibility.


500円だけお支払いいただいて倉庫の拡張のみを行う、

といったやりかたもアリです。

Of course, if he's dropping numbers then it's probably a done deal.

[NoiseHERO]

Way I see it... It really depends on the pricing.

6 dollars JUST for the increased storage is more than half of PSU's monthly fee. I could imagine the other system services costing just as much or more, Especially being more desirable, maybe access to trading being cheaper, who knows. I'm hoping this "monthly fee" doesn't go over 15 dollars and even that's kind of a lot if you ask me...

Since you know... There's still the gacha... and. It's a gacha. I'm sure we're all bored with the default clothes by now and we haven't even played the game yet, so don't act like I'm alone on that one. D:

Edit: but yeah was typing this like an hour ago, and went to do something else, because I care that much. So I think like two pages just popped up on me. D:

[Omega-z]

Ah kyuuketsuki your first question that's the amount they gave us in Alpha 2, now this could be or not changed in Beta.

your second one. They give you the option to change element , increase ....etc with your weapon's something they Charged you before to do. lol no, I meant more of the rare's or higher * value weapon's. Since in PSU most weapon's became just a pile of dust bit's in storage which looked nice but didn't have very much re-play value.

the Third one. yeah it was an update they added around 4-5 month ago that put your PM's storage from 500 to 1000 using GC.

The fourth one is possible but depends on the pricing of the other AC items.

[kyuuketsuki]

Ah kyuuketsuki your first question that's the amount they gave us in Alpha 2, now this could be or not changed in Beta.
Oh I see. While I'd expect personal inventory to stay the same, I doubt they'll keep the bank at 100 items unless they're not expecting many people to actually pay for the storage expansion, since then it'd really just be a tax on excessive hoarding.

[Zorafim]

I think I need to establish both sides of the argument right here. One side is saying that we should expect to pay monthly, since that's what we've been doing since PSO. The other side is saying that $6 is far too much for a minor increase in play. Can I assume this is what both sides are saying?

They're both right. We should expect to pay something. And this something should be around what we were paying for PSU, for the average person. A more hardcore player who likes having the bonuses might pay more, while a more casual player who doesn't really care might not pay anything at all. The average of the extremes should be close to the $10 we're used to playing, assuming the population size remains the same. At this rate, though, that'll mean we can only get two bonuses per week before exceeding our previous monthly fee.
And the point I want to emphasize is that this is $6 for a minor increase in play. $6 for the MyRoom would probably make more sense. Half a monthly fee for access to one of the more fun aspects of late PSU, I say that might be fair. But this is like, spend less time emptying your bags between missions.
Does this mean better stuff will cost more?


Late to this thread but he doesn't say it will cost 500 yen for a storage expansion. He says charging 500 yen for a storage expansion is a possibility.

Oh thank god. Where have you been? If you got here sooner, that would have saved me being glared at by the rest of the CSCE lab. Turns out students don't like it when you randomly shout out curse words when they're working.


Of course, if he's dropping numbers then it's probably a done deal.

Ah... I'm out of curse words. I'm going to have to start making them up at this rate.

[Spellbinder]

Late to this thread but he doesn't say it will cost 500 yen for a storage expansion. He says charging 500 yen for a storage expansion is a possibility.

I'm not native Japanese, and I have no intentions to create a new angry mob, but I'm not so sure he's saying it's only a possibility. I hope you're right though and I'm simply overlooking something.

Edit: To me it looked like he was simply stating 500 yen for increased storage is one of the various options that will be available.