Hybrid Classes and Weapons

[Jonth]

In "The Force Thread", Omega-z presented some pretty ground breaking information that I felt needed it's own thread. Just click the spoiler box:

[SPOILER-BOX]Omega-z:

I'm done Testing the Normal attack for Gunslash, Rod's and Card's. I hope I keep it all straight lol. was done with Lv.1 foe's for accuracy.

O.k. first of all it's a 10 to 1 ratio and the reason why you add +30 to something it doesn't real add much to your ATK. Now every stat except HP & PP goes by this 10/1 rate with Ability with the only bonuses if meet it's requirement. All added points have to be 10 to make it a Damage point so 9 won't make it needs to be a full +10.

Gunslash - Melee/Blade attack - It's the full added power of the S-ATK and the Base R-ATK + any extra % for grinding, % with element or MAG stats. It has a Variance of 12 Damage.

Gunslash - Ranged/Gun attack - It's only the Full R-ATK, but this is the kicker it can have the Ability stat added this also counts your MAG too. But here's the catch you have to have the Ability stat higher then your foe to actually to have it added. Now when it's added in you have bonuses of having your Critical Attack Rate increased and the possibility of having the damage you take form a foe reduced to 1 + any extra % for grinding, % with element or MAG stats. It has a Variance of 0~2* Damage. (*doesn't happen to often )

Talis - Ranged/Card throw attack - It's the Base R-ATK and Half of your total T-ATK + Grinding which will go off the Base R-ATK and the full T-ATK of the weapon then % with element or MAG stats you have also Photon Flare also works with this. Variance of 2 Damage.

Talis - Technic/Base attack - It's the total T-ATK + the Ability also MAG. ( bonuses after the requirement is met ) Then any grinding, % with element or MAG stats. also Photon Flare also works with this. Variance of 4 Damage.

Rod - Melee/Rod attack - It's the total S-ATK and total T-ATK + any grinding, % with element or MAG stats. Variance of 4 Damage.

Rod - Technic/Base attack - It's the total T-ATK + the Ability also MAG. ( bonuses after the requirement is met ) Then any grinding, % with element or MAG stats. also Photon Flare also works with this. Variance of 4 Damage.

I hope this help's and having any thought's on it would be great. [/SPOILER-BOX]

This should completely change the way hybrid classes are viewed. Now that they have weapons that have damage formulas dependent on 2 stats, you are actually better off using a hybrid class that focuses on the 2 stats that correspond to your weapon of choice, instead of the specialist class that focuses on only one of those stats (say you want to mainly use a Rod, think of this example: Force/Hunter 85 T-ATK + 75 S-ATK compared to a Force/Force 100 T-ATK + 25 S-ATK).

Don't get me wrong, specialist classes will be just as important, especially for the weapons that only have one damage modifier stat. The main thing is, SEGA has found an incredibly creative way to equal the playing field between Hybrid classes and Specialist classes (assuming all other aspects are balanced in the game). This is something that was ALWAYS lacking in PSU.

What is everybody's thoughts on this? Omega-z only did his research based on weapons currently available to Forces, so have you encountered other weapons that seem to have damage formulas based on 2 stats?

[Atyl]

The primary difference between how hybrids and 'pure' will interact is based on equipment, PA limits, and how skills work, not stats. A full S-Atk FO in the beta can be within 100 S-Atk of a HU with the same weapon excluding skills.

[Zorafim]

But, we don't have pure classes, right? From what I can tell, we'll have the basic three classes as a primary class, and the ability to add on abilities from a secondary class.
In either case, it'll be nice to know that you're better with one weapon instead of another depending on your sub-class. Thanks for posting this.

[Ark22]

I hit 400+ when I crit, 100+ with just attacks and 85 with regular.

Techs I hit 70-100's when I use ra attacks. 100-200 with I use GI attacks and 200-350 when I use vasic techs.

So yeah I rather use a gun blade makes it so much better when fighting a boss.

[Jonth]

The primary difference between how hybrids and 'pure' will interact is based on equipment, PA limits, and how skills work, not stats. A full S-Atk FO in the beta can be within 100 S-Atk of a HU with the same weapon excluding skills.

You may be right, as I haven't played myself. All I know is that the difference in stats was significant enough for some players to realize that they were doing more damage with a Rod hit than they were with a Gunslash hit, even though the Gunslash had a higher S-ATK. Maybe they were very observant and noticed a marginal change.



But, we don't have pure classes, right? From what I can tell, we'll have the basic three classes as a primary class, and the ability to add on abilities from a secondary class.
In either case, it'll be nice to know that you're better with one weapon instead of another depending on your sub-class. Thanks for posting this.

Yeah I'm not sure about the specialist classes. I listed my uncertainty in "The Force Thread", but forgot to here, sorry. However, there is a possibility of there being specialty classes, considering data-mining (yeah, I know it is fairly unreliable) efforts have revealed 16 or 17 slots for potential classes.

The whole sub-class system, to my knowledge, has not been mentioned officially since before alpha-1, so I'm not completely sure they will be sticking with that system. They may instead go back to something more like PSU's class system, or they could keep the sub-system and just make it possible to "sub" in your main class. This is just my speculation though, and I realize I could be off.

Sakai has officially mentioned about adding more classes however, so whether he is referring to the sub-class system or something else is open to debate.


I hit 400+ when I crit, 100+ with just attacks and 85 with regular.

Techs I hit 70-100's when I use ra attacks. 100-200 with I use GI attacks and 200-350 when I use vasic techs.

So yeah I rather use a gun blade makes it so much better when fighting a boss.

Are the numbers you listed for techs charged and JAed? Because they don't seem to match up with what I have seen others list. Even if they are charged and JAed, the only number higher in your Gunslash sample (compared to basic techs) is the critical, which seems to me would be a unreliable source of damage unless you critical a WHOLE lot.

[Ark22]

It's not crit haha, I hit 100 with just attacks and 85 with regular.

Yeah those attacks are Just Techs charged, forgot to include that because regular techs suck....alot.

[Du1337]

I really don't understand what u are takling about... I even don't know what a Hybrid class is... Sorry. Id like to understand though.

[Eggobandit]

In "The Force Thread", Omega-z presented some pretty ground breaking information that I felt needed it's own thread. Just click the spoiler box:

[SPOILER-BOX]Omega-z:

I'm done Testing the Normal attack for Gunslash, Rod's and Card's. I hope I keep it all straight lol. was done with Lv.1 foe's for accuracy.

O.k. first of all it's a 10 to 1 ratio and the reason why you add +30 to something it doesn't real add much to your ATK. Now every stat except HP & PP goes by this 10/1 rate with Ability with the only bonuses if meet it's requirement. All added points have to be 10 to make it a Damage point so 9 won't make it needs to be a full +10.

Gunslash - Melee/Blade attack - It's the full added power of the S-ATK and the Base R-ATK + any extra % for grinding, % with element or MAG stats. It has a Variance of 12 Damage.

Gunslash - Ranged/Gun attack - It's only the Full R-ATK, but this is the kicker it can have the Ability stat added this also counts your MAG too. But here's the catch you have to have the Ability stat higher then your foe to actually to have it added. Now when it's added in you have bonuses of having your Critical Attack Rate increased and the possibility of having the damage you take form a foe reduced to 1 + any extra % for grinding, % with element or MAG stats. It has a Variance of 0~2* Damage. (*doesn't happen to often )

Talis - Ranged/Card throw attack - It's the Base R-ATK and Half of your total T-ATK + Grinding which will go off the Base R-ATK and the full T-ATK of the weapon then % with element or MAG stats you have also Photon Flare also works with this. Variance of 2 Damage.

Talis - Technic/Base attack - It's the total T-ATK + the Ability also MAG. ( bonuses after the requirement is met ) Then any grinding, % with element or MAG stats. also Photon Flare also works with this. Variance of 4 Damage.

Rod - Melee/Rod attack - It's the total S-ATK and total T-ATK + any grinding, % with element or MAG stats. Variance of 4 Damage.

Rod - Technic/Base attack - It's the total T-ATK + the Ability also MAG. ( bonuses after the requirement is met ) Then any grinding, % with element or MAG stats. also Photon Flare also works with this. Variance of 4 Damage.

I hope this help's and having any thought's on it would be great. [/SPOILER-BOX]

This should completely change the way hybrid classes are viewed. Now that they have weapons that have damage formulas dependent on 2 stats, you are actually better off using a hybrid class that focuses on the 2 stats that correspond to your weapon of choice, instead of the specialist class that focuses on only one of those stats (say you want to mainly use a Rod, think of this example: Force/Hunter 85 T-ATK + 75 S-ATK compared to a Force/Force 100 T-ATK + 25 S-ATK).

Don't get me wrong, specialist classes will be just as important, especially for the weapons that only have one damage modifier stat. The main thing is, SEGA has found an incredibly creative way to equal the playing field between Hybrid classes and Specialist classes (assuming all other aspects are balanced in the game). This is something that was ALWAYS lacking in PSU.

What is everybody's thoughts on this? Omega-z only did his research based on weapons currently available to Forces, so have you encountered other weapons that seem to have damage formulas based on 2 stats?

It is about time ST started using smart formulas for damage. This is really good info, good work.

Does anyone know how heavy Ability is weighted, or does it follow the same 10-1 ratio? This is really good news.




It was obvious hybid classes exist thanks to dual requirements on some weapons, but i was hoping that weapons would have dual-stat forumlas for damage, and they finally do. This also means that like PSO we can have hunter weapons that are force exclusive that can still do good damage if they alter the stat forumlas!

[Crystal_Shard]

Just speculation, but perhaps the "pure" classes will be unlocked by having both your class and subclass be the same.

[foreignreign]

I... don't get it.

So?

Like... that just means a FOnewearl's Rod whacking is the strongest Rod whacking around since she has the highest S-ATK and T-ATK combined of the FOs. Same goes for her Talis throwing.

[Omega-z]

foreignreign - It depend's on how your S-ATK and your T-ATK are, not just one stat any more. The closes to a pure stat is the one's with Ability stat's since you need to get to a point for a boost which add's too what you have even tho their 2 stat's.

Eggobandit - the Ability stat is also 10 to 1 ratio but with requirement's to get it's bonuses.
Example say I have 230 Ability point's and a Lv.18 on my MAG (which is 180 in stat form). when there combined it add's in 41 Damage points to your attack with the other two bonuses as long you have higher Ability then the Foe. Another Example is the Ranger's Jellan Shot, how people see 1 damage form a boss is not the shot per say but that it had done to lowered the boss's Ability lower then your's to have that happen.

[foreignreign]

foreignreign - It depend's on how your S-ATK and your T-ATK are, not just one stat any more. The closes to a pure stat is the one's with Ability stat's since you need to get to a point for a boost which add's too what you have even tho their 2 stat's.

But FOnewearl has the most S-ATK and T-ATK combined of all the FOs. Compared to the FOmarl, they both have the same S-ATK, but FOney has more T-ATK.

So either way the FOnewearl is still better than a "hybrid" FOmarl unless we're taking into consideration a class system that isn't in yet.

[Omega-z]

FOnewearl most likely has the most T-ATK unless a FONewm has equal, close to that or better. And Focast, Fomar, Focaseal and Fonewm most likely have better S-ATK. But yes if FOnewearl has better over all then a Fomarl then a FOnewearl is better. But remember that it won't be by very much if it was and this maybe due to the fact that it's Beta. At a 10 to 1 rate even if you have +200 more it's only +20 Damage. It doesn't get bigger than that unless you use a PA or Shifta.

[Clessy]

I don't even like the fact that they let you change classes. This isnt fucking psu. I dont like any of the ideas or concepts from psu in my pso games!

[Pillan]

FOnewearl most likely has the most T-ATK unless a FONewm has equal, close to that or better. And Focast, Fomar, Focaseal and Fonewm most likely have better S-ATK. But yes if FOnewearl has better over all then a Fomarl then a FOnewearl is better. But remember that it won't be by very much if it was and this maybe due to the fact that it's Beta. At a 10 to 1 rate even if you have +200 more it's only +20 Damage. It doesn't get bigger than that unless you use a PA or Shifta.

Remember that Newman female has the highest T-Attack and equal M-Attack to Newman male. Then add in that Force decreases M-Attack and increases T-Attack and that the T-Attack gap between the races is twice as much as the M-Attack gap and FOnewearl is clearly still the best with any of the tech weapons (you can apply the same argument to the card formula you mentioned). Of course Cast and human both have higher Ability, but I doubt the tiny difference makes up for the T-Attack gap the overwhelming majority of the time.

And I really doubt this will change in the final version. But we can see how hybridization will work eventually. And, as you mentioned, it still is not that big a gap compared to say, PSO, PSU, PSZ, or PSP2/I.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't even like the fact that they let you change classes. This isnt fucking psu. I dont like any of the ideas or concepts from psu in my pso games!
This made me lol.

Okay then, let's take out PAs, replace the PP bar with the TP bar, remove Just Attacks, remove the element system and replace it with the PSO native/beast/blahblahblah system just because you can't deal with the idea of anything from PSU actually being a good idea. :roll:

[Jonth]

Foreignreign, you are ignoring a point that you yourself have raised. FOnewearls are the best with striking with a rod. Under previous damage formulas, a FOcast should be the best with it, since previously only the S-ATK stat would have been taken into consideration.

The main point, however, has been missed it seems. The news presented is not significant because it makes one gender/species combination better than another gender/species combination of THE SAME CLASS. It is significant because it will allow a Hybrid class (such as Wartecher or Force/Hunter, whichever system they go with) to be better with certain weapons than a specialist class (such as Force/Force or Fortetecher or Hunter/Hunter or Fortefighter). I am aware that there may not be specialist classes, but this is a hypothetical debate. So yes, we are talking about the future class system and the possibilities this news opens.

And another thing that really didn't bother me until this thread. FOnewearls, FOnewms, FOmarls, FOmars, FOcasts, and FOcaseals are all the same class. That's right, they are all Forces. As far as I know, nothing official has been released stating that the class system will be set in this way. In fact, since they are going to be adding new classes not present in PSO, or using the sub-class system, SEGA will not likely be using this system. So to reiterate, as stated in the title and first post, this is a discussion about classes vs. classes, not gender/race vs. gender/race.

[Eggobandit]

foreignreign - It depend's on how your S-ATK and your T-ATK are, not just one stat any more. The closes to a pure stat is the one's with Ability stat's since you need to get to a point for a boost which add's too what you have even tho their 2 stat's.

Eggobandit - the Ability stat is also 10 to 1 ratio but with requirement's to get it's bonuses.
Example say I have 230 Ability point's and a Lv.18 on my MAG (which is 180 in stat form). when there combined it add's in 41 Damage points to your attack with the other two bonuses as long you have higher Ability then the Foe. Another Example is the Ranger's Jellan Shot, how people see 1 damage form a boss is not the shot per say but that it had done to lowered the boss's Ability lower then your's to have that happen.


Soooo...Evasion was removed but it really was just....revised?



It doubles as both an offensive and defensive stat. Interesting. So it gives an extra boost in damage as long as your stat is higher than your enemy's, as well as granting you the chance to basically negate damage (or at least drastically reduce it).


It sounds like a mechanic thats more meant for level control than anything else.



This isn't really a conversation thats important for gender/race specifically, but it does present some interesting things things regarding how they're balanced. the most important question is really about how the different weapons use these formula.





This is very very good news, because it means they will not resort to that TERRIBLE method of simply providing flat damage % boosts to hybrid classes to make them not useless. This will also mean Mag Customization and deviance from the norm (i.e. Battle Force) will be more interesting to pursue.




Lets hope certain Rare weapons will have their own specific formula.

[Pillan]

Just curious, but am I the only one expecting this class hybridization options to be in the form of additional skill tree branches rather than new classes as done in PSU or class combinations as done in FFXI?

[Jonth]

Just curious, but am I the only one expecting this class hybridization options to be in the form of additional skill tree branches rather than new classes as done in PSU or class combinations as done in FFXI?

Well, we only have two pieces of information to fuel our speculation. First, before alpha they had planned a sub-class system, of which we haven't heard anything about since the release of alpha-1. Secondly, Sakai has officially stated that there will be other classes released in the future. Now what this means is open to debate, but my personal opinion is that it sounds like it will be either the sub-class system (akin to FFXI) or a system similar to PSU.



This isn't really a conversation thats important for gender/race specifically, but it does present some interesting things things regarding how they're balanced. the most important question is really about how the different weapons use these formula.


I want to apologize for my previous post if I sounded condescending. It's just that somebody's post pushed one of my buttons. I in no way mean that race/gender combinations shouldn't be analyzed, just that the biggest impact of Omega-z's research was on class to class comparison. Furthermore, it seemed like the biggest point was being all but ignored.

[Pillan]

Secondly, Sakai has officially stated that there will be other classes released in the future.

Do you have a link to this? It is the first I have heard of it. I knew about more races, but I had never heard more classes.

[Omega-z]

Pillan - on the new's post it was in the Datamining as separate classes, but this might of change we won't know until later.

Pillan - your later post, It's true that the race/gender combo can have better result's. But at the same time each one has there weakness.

It's totally possible for a Fonewarl being better then a Focast in Melee but the same is reversed too, if done right. But for Melee say if a Fonewarl had 150 S-ATK and 270 T-ATK at Lv.1 and a Focast had 290 S-ATK and 130 T-ATK at lv. 1 it would be the same.

At Level 20 the differences in stat where not that big so there wasn't any 2x junk like in PSU at all. Infact Hunter type's say that the Force class was around a 100 point's in difference with the S-ATK. And can easily Pass Hunter's in HP.

Like I said it depend's on what you do to your character with it's Skill Tree, MAG, Gear, Grinding, Elemental %, Added Abilities, Hidden Boost's, and stat's. The Race/Gender/Class doesn't Matter as much as it used too, Still does but not as much.

Anyway all of this Can & Could change later down the road.

And If one want's to make a Purist Class it can be done but at a expense on time, Material, Measta, AC, Sacrifice of other stat's and having to go against a Duel System to raise one stat or 2 to be a Purist.

[Pillan]

If it was not clear, I am not against the idea that there are reasons to play things other than the most ideal damage race and class combination. I merely do not like incorrect information about how the race and class balance currently works.

[kyuuketsuki]

I don't get it. What's "ground breaking" about this, and how does it imply that "hybrid classes" (of which no such thing exists in the beta, and we have no idea how subclasses will work exactly so speculating that "hybrids" will be superior somehow is baseless). I mean it's good info, but it doesn't really change anything. Just lets me know that, on my FO, Ragne Soul is preferable to Vol Soul even when I'm whacking things with my Rod, which is nice.

[Jonth]

Do you have a link to this? It is the first I have heard of it. I knew about more races, but I had never heard more classes.


If you ctrl-F "class", it should take you to the comment "Plans to add more classes later".

http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-create-more-characters-with-arks-cash/

[Pillan]

Thanks. Well, there goes any hopes of me ever making a second character.

[Jonth]

I don't get it. What's "ground breaking" about this, and how does it imply that "hybrid classes" (of which no such thing exists in the beta, and we have no idea how subclasses will work exactly so speculating that "hybrids" will be superior somehow is baseless). I mean it's good info, but it doesn't really change anything. Just lets me know that, on my FO, Ragne Soul is preferable to Vol Soul even when I'm whacking things with my Rod, which is nice.

Why is this ground-breaking? Because it is a system that the online Phantasy Star series has never used. Also, in my opinion, it is a step in the right direction as far as opening up a lot of weapon/customization options.

Why does this potentially give hope to hybrid classes (which with 95% certainty will eventually be in the game based on official sources)? Because it allows for the potential that a hybrid class will be better with a certain weapon (not all weapons) than a specialist class (which I have admitted may not even be in the game). I never said they hybrid classes would be superior, but hopefully comparable to specialist classes. Furthermore, these ideas are not baseless, because Omega-z's research is the base for our speculation. Mind you, I know these things aren't a certainty, speculation never is certain... That's why it's speculation.

I'm not sure how you can say it doesn't change anything when you go on to give an example of a change. It is not a very significant change, but I feel that some of the things this news could allow for could be very significant. Maybe it won't end up that way, but IT COULD BE.


Here is the thing people. As of right now, in the Closed Beta, this news is hardly relevant. I know that. However, I and a few others who like hybrid classes are enjoying ourselves by speculating about the potential this could possibly give hybrid classes.

[Eggobandit]

I don't get it. What's "ground breaking" about this, and how does it imply that "hybrid classes" (of which no such thing exists in the beta, and we have no idea how subclasses will work exactly so speculating that "hybrids" will be superior somehow is baseless). I mean it's good info, but it doesn't really change anything. Just lets me know that, on my FO, Ragne Soul is preferable to Vol Soul even when I'm whacking things with my Rod, which is nice.

This is "ground breaking" because it is a superior way of balancing hybrid classes abilities and strongpoints. The weapons and stats are designed in such a way where on specific weapons, balancing multiple stats provides better results than stacking a single stat. This immediately seperates PSO2 from pretty much every other MMO which focuses on you basically choosing a class and then be given the option to balance stats (but really only being expected to stack one or two). So basically, this takes all of the class concepts from PSO/PSU and gives it more meaning and depth. You can make some completely off the wall stat build and still have a weapon you're proficient in because the game doesn't force you to have S-ATK to do damage with striking weapons.




For example, imagine if the Twin Saber damage in PSU was dependant on a ratio of ATP and ATA instead of simply ATP. It would mean Beasts would do great damage with it, but Newmans (who are on the butt end of the ATP spectrum) could match them, or possibly even surpass them in damage, depending on the weight of the ATA in the formula. Another example would be if Twin Daggers were dependant on ATP and MST rather than simply ATP. It would immediately make Humans and Newmans do much greater damage with the weapon than Beasts or Casts, who would have to compensate through units to match the damage that comes naturally to humans and newmans.




This really does mean jack nothing for the closed beta, but it pretty much confirms either hybrid classes or very elaborate build paths. It's much more elaborate than the simple 'lets give this race a % damage bonus' method from past games. It really truely allows you to customize your character abilities, making MAGs even more prevalent than they were in PSO.

[Atyl]

I don't get it. What's "ground breaking" about this, and how does it imply that "hybrid classes" (of which no such thing exists in the beta, and we have no idea how subclasses will work exactly so speculating that "hybrids" will be superior somehow is baseless). I mean it's good info, but it doesn't really change anything. Just lets me know that, on my FO, Ragne Soul is preferable to Vol Soul even when I'm whacking things with my Rod, which is nice.

It is potential, that's it. As of this moment it isn't a big deal at all besides doing the bare minimum effort to somewhat lay a very basic ground work for the future. Besides what has been mined we don't know any future plans. If the theoretical plan was to make PAs at 6-9 cost 5 PP less and 10 add a higher damage extension where would that leave a hybrid stuck at 5? As anyone who played PSU in the very beginning would know.

Ability is the odd ball out. For example in the case of FO: Unless your Rod swings do more damage than your techs, stacking for S-atk is never useful for that reason - it is just an added bonus if you do happen to be doing that for other reasons (gunslash, fist, or possibly more HUish flavors of FO later like say Rod PAs). If the only thing you are doing is throwing Talis and buffing, R-atk will be better, etc.

Edit: It is not particularly ground-breaking in the field of MMOs either as almost every MMO favors having a variety of stats. Crit %, Crit Damage, and Base Damage are some things that have been around for a long time. Dunno where that thought came from.

Sum it up as potential that Sega learned a bit.