general animation canceling thread

[soulpimpwizzurd]

i'd like to start off saying that i don't claim i found out about any of these things first or before anybody, i'm just writing about animation canceling since i like it a lot.
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so after playing the closed beta enough i've learned a good amount of what things can be animation canceled.

some most of you probably already know are things like:
melee>guard
melee>jump
melee>dash
aerial gunslash/launcher fire = no reload
dash>jump
dash>jump>dash (faster form of movement. not incredible. at first i thought it was 30% but it's closer to maybe 10-20% faster than sheathed weapon run. ONLY IF you get the timing perfect. the speed comes from how you can instantly dash right after you jump. if you delay and you jump too high you waste time you could be dashing. so it's almost jump+dash, but space is pressed first.)

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there are more random ones that some might not have run into yet, like flying using the partisan PA where you kick it into the air and then jump really high to grab it and spiral down to earth.

if you time it right, you can guard right when you gain that vertical distance and then do it again, and again. you can fly pretty high and it looks funny.

you can also dash cancel out of it at the top of your vertical height and do it again to get more forward movement. completely useless but fun. this vertical distance though i keep referring to as broken since it so easily reaches boss weak spots. we'll see if it gets nerfed, but i think nerfing the vertical distance would defeat the purpose of the PA lol. i personally love this pa.

there's also a relatively tall hill/mound in forest where one side of it's ledge cannot be reached. you have to go to the other side and jump up some platforms to get to the top of it. if you use this partisan trick you can get up there easily.
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guard vs dash canceling:

there are some attacks that cannot be dashed out of but can be guarded out of like the sword attack's jumping barrel roll photon art that launches enemies after hitting them ~3 times quickly. so if you want to dash out of that attack you just have to tap shift to guard and then dash. in a somewhat similar context, if you want to guard faster after a dash, you must jump and then guard, since guard does not activate until after the dashing animation completes. i.e. dash>jump>guard

some attacks also cancel faster if you guard instead of dash. ex: sword side kick gets canceled by guard so fast you actually can't even hit the enemy.
this means if you wanted to dash after an attack even faster, you'd tap guard and then dash, but it's a pain.
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dash>jump>dash in travel and combat:

for faster distance travel dash>jump>dash using the x key seems to be the best and easiest solution. tapping ww aa ss dd gets agitating fast. keep in mind 2hand sword's dash animation is slower and has more delay, so make sure to switch to a gunslash/go unarmed/partisan/wired lance.

it's difficult to use the x button in combat to dash since you can only use it to dash up down left or right (i use my index finger to press it, so i cannot move right using the x button unless i swivel my mouse in that direction). for one thing, if you're in tps mode, x makes you go forward in the direction you're facing. you cannot go any other direction if you press x. only by pressing aa ss dd can you dash backwards/left/right. the reasons why this would be useful is if you need to quickly make distance as a ranger and you want to keep an eye on the boss at the same time. just switch to gunslash and do dash>jump>dash.

i've found that when using the wasd keys to do dash>jump>dash, the following input is the most effective for making sure you are able to dash the instant you jump. i'll use the d key (right direction) as example since the d key is what i am unable to press when using x to dash.

dd d space d.

not dd space dd. if you try it this way, you'll jump too high and lose time/speed. press d right before you press space registers as half of the input to dash, so right when you press d again after jumping, you'll dash right away.

[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMv0EhA-Y9g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMv0EhA-Y9g[/SPOILER-BOX]

at first it feels weird, and it's a little difficult to switch it up so you're able to do dd d space d > aa a space a > ss s space s. you can get used to it quickly though.

you can of course make it so that your midair dash is in a different direction, which is useful for more evasive hunter gameplay. i personally prefer aa w space w >dash attack.

it's sad, but even though your character touches the ground after your 2nd dodge in mid air, it does not reset it's "aerial dodge" status, and you cannot jump cancel it (if you could i'd have a lot of fun though :( ). so you must get used to the dash>jump>dash pattern.
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faster rifle / gunslash shooting (it works the same way for both weapons):
it's interesting because the ranger's rifle does the reload after 3 bursts no matter what, even in the air. if anything i'd figure it should be reverse, rifle should be able to spam in the air like launcher currently does, and launcher should reload after 3 no matter what.

[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Z-t0YFPn4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Z-t0YFPn4[/SPOILER-BOX]

however i have found a way to circumvent the reload for rifle. it allows very quick repetitions of the 3 burst shots.

basically it's this-

[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXRkAZpSZM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXRkAZpSZM[/SPOILER-BOX]

(while holding any directional key the entire time, it cancels jump delay)jump+shoot>just attack shoot>just attack shoot> land> jump+shoot>just attack shoot>just attack shoot.

i say jump+shoot because you must shoot close to immediately after you jump. you also have to just attack because unlike pso 1+2, just attacking actually makes you attack faster. which is awesome. after you hit the ground, it resets the reloading animation. so you can jump and fire 3 shots again as soon as you hit the ground, without reloading.

the results are needless to say, entertaining, and you can generate pp pretty quickly. its major downfall is that you can't move though.

*this actually works a little better with gunslash because you float less after you shoot with it mid air, allowing you to touch the ground faster to reset your "reload" time (even though gun slash has no visible reload)
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combining the ww > w space w with the no reload
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr2zkVqXYxo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr2zkVqXYxo[/SPOILER-BOX]

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end thoughts

what i really love about this game is how if you're not there you actually don't get hit. the hitboxes are very precise, and your character only gets hit when you really are in the line of fire. no crap like getting hit by an enemy 5 feet away, or getting mauled by an attack that was way towards your left, just because the server still "thought you were there". if you're not there you won't get damaged. it's amazing. which is why split second things like this actually make a difference in some situations. it also makes the game much more fun, to me at least.

[Kraiseson]

Thats so funny. I was just thinking about this the other day, and was trying to actually do some delays myself. The gameplay structure reminded me of GUNZ online, and i figured ppl would start to exploit the Melee,Block,dash, jump to create a new way of playing. I predicted ppl would be flying around the maps in a few months into OB but it might be sooner. xD Anyway im willing to meet up and figure something out.. I'm extremely interested in this style of playing

[Kurushii]

I noticed this when I started playing. Sadly after really digging into it it's more tied to the visual rings that appear around your character as the sign when you can do a cancel input. After the Blue Ring starts you can do a movement cancel, but for attacks you want to wait till the Ring is Red so you get the bonus properties of the timing. It all depends on when the ring starts on the x attack. Some start almost at the start of the attack while others don't have the Ring start till near the end of the attack. After going through all the attacks it was rare to find one that you could cancel slightly before the Blue Ring starts up (Gunslash mainly, and Sword has some Guard Cancels that can be done at startup of the attack).

For the jump attack cancel you tried to describe it's basically once you land the game forces the attack to cancel and return your character to neutral. It can also be done effectively with Hunter attacks. Like with Sword doing [Short Jump > Twister Fall] xN.

A weird one that a friend noticed for Gunslash was Backdash during Thrillsplosion's startup which will make your character do a tumble and attack in the opposite direction.

[Ark22]

Sad thing is, I sort of knew most of this information, I just didn't want everybody abusing it so I never bothered to post a thread. But I guess Sega or someone will see this and be like HEY WE GUN FIX DIS.

[Taitu]

Sad thing is, I sort of knew most of this information, I just didn't want everybody abusing it so I never bothered to post a thread. But I guess Sega or someone will see this and be like HEY WE GUN FIX DIS.

It's not really like most of this isn't common knowledge nor do I think the ability to cancel your moves is unintentional. Anyone who plays Monster Hunter on here I'm sure the very first thing they tried to do when they noticed there was a dodge was try to cancel into it from their attacks. This sort of way to play is likely exactly what Sega was going for.

[Kurushii]

Sad thing is, I sort of knew most of this information, I just didn't want everybody abusing it so I never bothered to post a thread. But I guess Sega or someone will see this and be like HEY WE GUN FIX DIS.

It's a common mechanic in fighting games and action games. Not a bug, exploit, exc.

[Ark22]

It's not really like most of this isn't common knowledge nor do I think the ability to cancel your moves is unintentional. Anyone who plays Monster Hunter on here I'm sure the very first thing they tried to do when they noticed there was a dodge was try to cancel into it from their attacks. This sort of way to play is likely exactly what Sega was going for.

I was a long sword user, animation canceling was my forte 8-).

But, this game is easy already, dodge canceling will just make it too easy.

But if they add more aggressive enemies in the new levels then they can keep it.

[Freshellent]

It's a common mechanic in fighting games and action games. Not a bug, exploit, exc.

In full agreement there.

From what I could tell, this is what SEGA wants in the first place. I'm all for it. Once I have my videos uploaded you'll see me use it quite a bit. Personally, it fits more my playstyle in games and I quite enjoy it.

[FenixStryk]

I was wondering when someone would make a thread about animation cancels. Even as FO, we have access to Jump->Mirage Escape for a shorter recovery, and Unarmed Dash->Jump+Dash for (around 10%) faster movement. The Dash Key is a godsend; put it somewhere smart like F or E and your life will become that much easier.

Wavedashing is particularly useful for Thrillsplosions: as soon as the grenade explodes, Hold W and F-Space+F into M1-M2 to close the gap and get an easy Just Attack. Easy Thrillsplosion loops for any class.

A very small thing: switching weapons during a dash cancels dash recovery; I'm not sure how useful this will become (especially since there is a delay on switching weapons quickly), but the option is there. Something to think about.

An even smaller thing: FO's Mirage Escape done at super-low heights cancels into itself almost immediately:
[spoiler-box]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFByaSIdq4c[/spoiler-box]
Not particularly useful (normal Jump->Mirage Escape is better), but it's a nice throwback to IADs in anime Fighting Games.

As for AAA Space A for easier inputs on sideways wavedashing, and low-jump Rifle shots to cancel the reload animation on landing: Thanks for the tip. I'm sure they'll be useful if I switch to HU/RA.

[Ark22]

It's a common mechanic in fighting games and action games. Not a bug, exploit, exc.

It's just the invulnerability in the dodges whats it easy. I mean dodge is something you would use too avoid an attack, not be able to go through it because you are invulnerable.

Like I said, the game is easy enough, the dodging just makes it really easy unless the future monsters are far more aggressive and do more attacks that make dodging an asset.

Like Devil May Cry 4, with short hopping and what not, you can dodge but the whole point is to dodge faster but you can still get hit.

The amount of damages I avoided because of the invulnerability is pretty friggen high. I just hope if they do make this a mechanic they remove the invincibility.

[Randomness]

It's not really like most of this isn't common knowledge nor do I think the ability to cancel your moves is unintentional. Anyone who plays Monster Hunter on here I'm sure the very first thing they tried to do when they noticed there was a dodge was try to cancel into it from their attacks. This sort of way to play is likely exactly what Sega was going for.

Dodge cancels are kind of mandatory knowledge for most weapons... (Exceptions being stuff like lances that has other options for negating hits, long swords with their fade slash to dodge while attacking, etc.)


It's just the invulnerability in the dodges whats it easy. I mean dodge is something you would use too avoid an attack, not be able to go through it because you are invulnerable.

Like I said, the game is easy enough, the dodging just makes it really easy unless the future monsters are far more aggressive and do more attacks that make dodging an asset.

Like Devil May Cry 4, with short hopping and what not, you can dodge but the whole point is to dodge faster but you can still get hit.

The amount of damages I avoided because of the invulnerability is pretty friggen high. I just hope if they do make this a mechanic they remove the invincibility.

They may need to reduce the frames of invincibility, but...

FOs have absurd invincibility, but at the cost of being out of the fight for that whole duration... so you can always dodge the attack, but you waste time.

[Reia]

Actually I knew about this abuses but dont find them useful on Ranger gameplay, To start off, Launcher already can abuse its delays without switching, if you dash cancel it will go back to load it up, Rifle, whenever you get the idea of jump attack is just because you wanna stay airbone (the full burst PA is helpful for that) to optimize your jump dodging and while on ground you prefer shooting like that because of the mobility, you can also 2 attack and spam PAs then short jump cancel but during boss fights is most likely you gonna get hit by doing that, just roll cancel to a side dodge. I don't find <regular attack no reload> useful because it keeps you stationary, which is no good for the boss fights and not much of a deal on normal enemies when everything gets blasted by the launcher.

[DeltaSonic]

I've been having trouble using those invincibility frames to dodge (Hunter step). 2 of my friends have no points in step/dive roll advance and they don't seem to have any problem dodging attacks. They can dodge the explosion of those red circle traps most of the time and I can only do it about half of the time. If I ask them what I should do to get better at timing my dodges to use those frames, one of them will get all mad and be like "It's a DODGE use it to GET OUT OF THE WAY. ITS NOT ABOUT THE INVINCIBLE FRAMES." What does he do on the red traps? Invincible frames. I really don't get this guy.

Now that that rant is over, I've had only 3 points in step advance so I could get step attack. If I can get on later I'll practice with 10. 0.09 more seconds doesn't seem like much but it just might do the trick. Anyone know of a game I could play to make get the hang of timing dodges? One last odd thing is that I can do just guards MUCH easier than dodging. Guessing because there's much larger window for that.

[Ark22]

FOs have absurd invincibility, but at the cost of being out of the fight for that whole duration... so you can always dodge the attack, but you waste time.

Lmao, this is a big problem, I know we Forces can die in 3 hits but we don't need a SUPER LONG invincibility frame. I mean it takes out the fun honestly, but I really do like the idea or flying with it xD.

Plus PSO2 is not one of the games that need a mechanic like this, it's really not evolved around attack and dodge like DMC, Bayonetta, etc.

I mean if the limited the amount of heals we could bring per fun, not go back to ship (Unless the implement a system for every time you go into the ship you drop a letter grade). Because you can just heal. We need enemies that will stay on our asses to even say this game deserves the dodge, short hops.

Besides that I really love this game, just want more "OH SHIT", and less "not even trying"

[Eggobandit]

It's a common mechanic in fighting games and action games. Not a bug, exploit, exc.

But it's retarded. It's only a common mechanic because games allow them to be.


In most GOOD fighters, they remove the mechanic and compensate the mechanics it was used with. In most CAPCOM fighters however, they leave the exploit in and call it "skill". Another example is Smash Brothers Melee with wavedashing. They wouldn't have given every character unique walking, running, sliding and turnaround speed, with unique acceleration and deceleration if they expected you to ignore it. So it's even worse in 2D fighters like Marvel when it allows you to create ridiculous loops.


Unsheathed running is slower than running. Running is used to quickly move long distances. Step is to quickly move very short distances to avoid attacks. Anytime these functions mix, match and override eachother, then the original plan failed and the designers need to fix it. This is commonly called bad game design.



It would be different if Step was designed to be faster than running, but it is not. Just like Dodge Roll and Mirage go long distances faster than running but have uncanceable delays to lower the net speed gain. Trying to make this game like GunZ is utter suicide. That game was trash.




It's just the invulnerability in the dodges whats it easy. I mean dodge is something you would use too avoid an attack, not be able to go through it because you are invulnerable.

Like I said, the game is easy enough, the dodging just makes it really easy unless the future monsters are far more aggressive and do more attacks that make dodging an asset.

Like Devil May Cry 4, with short hopping and what not, you can dodge but the whole point is to dodge faster but you can still get hit.

The amount of damages I avoided because of the invulnerability is pretty friggen high. I just hope if they do make this a mechanic they remove the invincibility.

You know, it really doesn't bother me much. You can dodge moves in this game because you can only be hit by so many before you need to heal.


In Devil May Cry 3 and 4 they gave dante the ability to so easily dodge moves because 1) healing is very rare and 2) its not unlikely for one move to be comboed into a death sentence for you in a swarm or bossfight. DMC 3 has a step move on trickster, but the invincibility is actually far less than it is on PSO2, because the entire length of your rising jump frames are full invincible. This allows you to dodge attacks but you'll still be hit by anything that you couldnt obviously jump through.



They dont need to remove invincibility, they need to drastically remove the length of it. You should not be able to Step through a move that OBVIOUSLY is still hitting you by the time you're finished. This is most easily demonstrated by any solo battle against Katadorian.

[DeltaSonic]

Plus PSO2 is not one of the games that need a mechanic like this, it's really not evolved around attack and dodge like DMC, Bayonetta, etc.

Indirectly, my question was answered lol

Also one of my force friends thinks it's the easiest thing in the world to dodge and has no clue why I have trouble. I completely disregard him when he says this.

[soulpimpwizzurd]

A very small thing: switching weapons during a dash cancels dash recovery; I'm not sure how useful this will become (especially since there is a delay on switching weapons quickly), but the option is there. Something to think about.

nice catch, i never knew this. my mouse wheel is really inaccurate so i don't mess around with weapon switching very much even though it seems like it could open up a plethora of canceling.

i already suggested to sega that when you scroll with your mouse you open your weapon select menu, and then you should be able to press 1-6 key to directly change to that weapon. that would be much more accurate. i'm really not liking the current setup of scrolling through with the mouse wheel to find the weapon you want. it's slow and for my mouse wheel often times inaccurate.

@eggobandit it's all opinion. i thought gunz was great, but only for people that liked fast paced game play like that. i quit after i couldn't get m-style down though.

@ark22 i've never actually tried to use hunter's dodge or ranger's dodge to go straight through any attacks. imo both move fast enough outta the way so you never really need the invincibility frames. i think besides leveling it for just reversal, it's not worth any more points.

[NoiseHERO]

Kind of takes all of the fun out of the INTENDED design of the game if we're all just mechanic abusing ninja cancelling everything for speed and combo boosts...

Some people would argue otherwise, but those that agree, my example would be smash bros melee... e_e

I REALLY dislike this kind of stuff, the usual support for it is "It's easy to do you're just a noob for not mastering it." or "It's part of the games mechanics(As if it ever really is on purpose in most games.) WELL I DON'T CARE FOR YOUR LEGAL GLITCHES! AND THE GAME IS MORE FUN WHEN I'M NOT PLAYING IT SO UNNATURALLY, AND YOU ALL SUCK FOR ABUSING IT AGAINST NEW PLAYERS BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE JUST GONNA BE ALL "This is stupid" AND QUIT. D:

But this isn't a PVP so whatever. Most people lag teleport across the screen anyway. And yeah, they CAN design a PVP system/minigame where they wouldn't have to nerf and buff classes every other patch and make the game half PVP based, the other half PVP drama based. But even as a simple PVP minigame "Cancel" spamming would have to be fixed...

[soulpimpwizzurd]

But even as a simple PVP minigame "Cancel" spamming would have to be fixed...

lol cancel spamming would be the only reason i'd want to play pvp. if it got taken out it pvp would indeed forever be left alone as a mini game. to me at least. if it's left in though, pvp could potentially become much more exciting. i liked how smash bros melee had mini hops and arial attack delay canceling, fast falls, etc. it added levels of depth to the game that you could perfect and master. all in all it just made the game more enjoyable to me.

i think it's fun to get deeper and deeper involved in the game. constantly performing animation cancels makes the game more gripping and intense. it becomes more of something i can get better and better at. which is a good thing.

[FerrPSO]

As a Hunter only player, seeing how this game plays more like a hack an slash, I think animation canceling is an esential part of the gameplay (atleast for Hunter) that should not be nerfed. Its not gliching or cheapening, is giving the player more room to maneuver in dangerous situations (like being surrounded by enemies).


Now, the invincibility frames, are just too high, I just have lvl 1 and it feels huge. It needs to be toned down IMO (I was kinda surprised you could level up that,).

Didnt play Force so I dont know how cheap or not are their step.

[Eggobandit]

@eggobandit it's all opinion. i thought gunz was great, but only for people that liked fast paced game play like that. i quit after i couldn't get m-style down though.


well thats exactly my point!


For some reason people have this notion that anything that involves a "cancel" is an advanced mechanic and therefore means the game they're playing MAGICALLY has depth to it, or something equally stupid. What people dont realize is that most of these cancels are infact nothing more than the developers overlooking when they should and should not allow the player to change states from one to another. (Such as jumping to dashing, or attacking to blocking.)


If PSO2 had PvP, you would have the community sliced in two between those who want a fair, balanced, deliberate and well-working system, versus those who would want a system where the depth was determined by how well you're able to press a sequence of buttons really fast. Anyone who would ask Sega to keep the game broken just because you can get better at it (aka exploit and abuse it) needs to think twice about what they really want to play. You instead ask Sega to implement mechanics that are intended for advanced gameplay.




Someone brought up Devil May Cry 4. Its a great example of this kind of thing. In the skill shop there's an ability that lets you jump off an enemies head, but it costs an absurd amount of money compared to anything else, because when used right it's the strongest ability in the game because it allows you to cancel absolutely anything, effectively breaking the shit out of whatever character you're playing.

And then, suddenly, infinite air combos, super fast attacks, and ridiculous combos are possible, simply because you can press jump near an enemy and cancel your attacks.

[soulpimpwizzurd]

For some reason people have this notion that anything that involves a "cancel" is an advanced mechanic and therefore means the game they're playing MAGICALLY has depth to it, or something equally stupid. What people dont realize is that most of these cancels are infact nothing more than the developers overlooking when they should and should not allow the player to change states from one to another.

i get this huge hunch you like games like street fighter 4 (which isn't bad. sf4 is hardcore).

i'm just wondering how you know that developers are overlooking the animation canceling. what if it was intended? ?_? if the developers didn't want you to be able to jump cancel out of a hunter dodge, how come they didn't make it the same as a ranger/force dodge?

i also feel like you'd have really enjoyed a game called rakion, back in it's prime.

[FenixStryk]

I'm laughing pretty hard at the comparison to GunZ. While the stuff revealed in this thread is useful, it is nowhere near as paramount to the game as K-Style was to GunZ. This is minutiae at best; a curious distraction. No class is so fundamentally changed by these tricks that they can't function without them, or want to specifically adjust their strategy to input split-second cancels for higher DPS.

If you think PSO2 is too easy (and it is), say it straight. Movement, dash invincibility duration and animation cancels are not what make this game too easy, and I would heavily argue that the extra mobility options are what make combat in PSO2 more engaging than PSO1.

P.S. K-Style is what made GunZ last as long as it did; hacking, not K-Style, was what ruined it.
P.P.S This post is off-topic, so don't go off on a tangent replying to it.

[Ark22]

Someone brought up Devil May Cry 4. Its a great example of this kind of thing. In the skill shop there's an ability that lets you jump off an enemies head, but it costs an absurd amount of money compared to anything else, because when used right it's the strongest ability in the game because it allows you to cancel absolutely anything, effectively breaking the shit out of whatever character you're playing.
.[/I]

*Slowly raises hand*




If you think PSO2 is too easy (and it is), say it straight. Movement, dash invincibility duration and animation cancels are not what make this game too easy.

If I can dodge past an attack I was suppose to get hit by numerous times and I don't even have to try or accidentally do (I.E reactions) it makes it too easy.

[Kurushii]

I can see your view but that isn't something to blame on the users control freedom. Hunters dodge isn't that good, Rangers is good, and Forces is way too good i'll agree. Honestly the company was never amazing at writing A.I. The monsters need improvement. Course cbt was just Normal difficulty of early levels so most likely it'll get harder later I hope. If they can't make it harder then a simple solution is making dodges/guards to require PP. The cancels is something they can change per move easily. I haven't seen any that break the balance of combat. Either way it's still very early in the games life and we'll have to wait and see what the devs do.

[Ark22]

I can see your view but that isn't something to blame on the users control freedom. Hunters dodge isn't that good, Rangers is good, and Forces is way too good i'll agree. Honestly the company was never amazing at writing A.I. The monsters need improvement. Course cbt was just Normal difficulty of early levels so most likely it'll get harder later I hope. If they can't make it harder then a simple solution is making dodges/guards to require PP. The cancels is something they can change per move easily. I haven't seen any that break the balance of combat. Either way it's still very early in the games life and we'll have to wait and see what the devs do.

Holy crap, how many people on here live in FL lmao.

Anyways, by control freedom do you mean short hops, wave dashing, etc?

If so I don't care about that, as long as I don't phase through enemy attacks I am suppose to get hit by then I am good.