Cash Shop Concerns

[Thermalwolf]

So I know Sega has to make money somehow, and PSO2 couldn't exist without some form of currency transaction. SO we get a cash shop. Ok, that's not terrible, there are games that pull this off without ruining the fun, but that's because the game is not RPG long term based. Aka LoL cash shop doesn't count!!!! Seriously, you're just slowly paying for the game and or earning it through leveling and playing. Either way, you get the game as is and unlock the rest of it. In an RPG universe it's different. You don't unlock hero's to actually play as this is the point of the RPG experience, so we sell model changing items for real cash and or Pay 2 Win for +EXP scrolls and purchase ingame currency, etc...

For PSO2 I see a lot of My Room Items, some cool looking item mods, and possibly purchasable quests. This is fine and dandy to me as long as it stays this way, and does not sell the coolest looking weapon skins over finding that cooler weapon. That pisses me off! The way my character looks is earned in an RPG and I think we can all agree that was part of the fun in PSO was hunting those badass rare weapons and armor that made you look like a god.

What do you guys think? I'm scared shitless to be honest, RPG Cash Shops either destroy games or barely keep them alive. Again, LoL and HoN cash shop don't count as they are not in the same class as PSO2 and it's style.

EDIT: In fact no other economy has ever felt so indepth to me! Seriously WoW economy is a sinch, but in PSO you gotta know what you're doing.

[pikachief]

They're pretty much doing it the way PSUJP does it. At least I hope they keep doing it that way. Through the cash shops on PSUJP you could get really really good weapons, but the best weapons all dropped from missions and if PSO2 decides to give out good weapons through the cash shop, I'm sure it wont include the best.

[Pyrii]

The current implementation is more based on how much disposable income you have and lots of luck. The fact that there's no room whatsoever for experimentation (1 character only for free and only 2 MAGs, no resets) sucks a lot of the fun out of the game for me. People loved MAG breeding in PSO and given the restrictions on items you get through scratch means that most of the time you will get stuff you can't wear/use.

[RocSage]

So I know Sega has to make money somehow, and PSO2 couldn't exist without some form of currency transaction. SO we get a cash shop. Ok, that's not terrible, there are games that pull this off without ruining the fun, but that's because the game is not RPG long term based. Aka LoL cash shop doesn't count!!!! Seriously, you're just slowly paying for the game and or earning it through leveling and playing. Either way, you get the game as is and unlock the rest of it. In an RPG universe it's different. You don't unlock hero's to actually play as this is the point of the RPG experience, so we sell model changing items for real cash and or Pay 2 Win for +EXP scrolls and purchase ingame currency, etc...

For PSO2 I see a lot of My Room Items, some cool looking item mods, and possibly purchasable quests. This is fine and dandy to me as long as it stays this way, and does not sell the coolest looking weapon skins over finding that cooler weapon. That pisses me off! The way my character looks is earned in an RPG and I think we can all agree that was part of the fun in PSO was hunting those badass rare weapons and armor that made you look like a god.

What do you guys think? I'm scared shitless to be honest, RPG Cash Shops either destroy games or barely keep them alive. Again, LoL and HoN cash shop don't count as they are not in the same class as PSO2 and it's style.

EDIT: In fact no other economy has ever felt so indepth to me! Seriously WoW economy is a sinch, but in PSO you gotta know what you're doing.

Cash shops don't do either ruin, or barely keep them alive. Cash shops and free to play are used as the last dying breathes of many games and have gotten that appearance, but those cash shops bring in a ton of short term money. The problem though is the game sucked to begin with and there is nothing the model can do to keep it alive because a game that sucks is going to suck and noone is going to spend anything on it.

However games that have either been designed around or have thought long and hard about how to do Cash Shops/F2P have either made them better or allow them to survive at higher levels than their previous models.

The best Cash Shop I've seen that should be emulated with a few fixes here and there is the City of Heroes one which has not only made the game thrive but has allowed for an aging high middle sub-based game to become even better and have stuff developed that the fans have been asking for for a long time that previously was prohibitive due to the time/cost analysis wasn't there, but now is because the players that want it will pay for it.

[Thermalwolf]

Cash shops don't do either ruin, or barely keep them alive. Cash shops and free to play are used as the last dying breathes of many games and have gotten that appearance, but those cash shops bring in a ton of short term money. The problem though is the game sucked to begin with and there is nothing the model can do to keep it alive because a game that sucks is going to suck and noone is going to spend anything on it.

However games that have either been designed around or have thought long and hard about how to do Cash Shops/F2P have either made them better or allow them to survive at higher levels than their previous models.

The best Cash Shop I've seen that should be emulated with a few fixes here and there is the City of Heroes one which has not only made the game thrive but has allowed for an aging high middle sub-based game to become even better and have stuff developed that the fans have been asking for for a long time that previously was prohibitive due to the time/cost analysis wasn't there, but now is because the players that want it will pay for it.

This post makes me not hate Cash Shops so much now, but I'm still on the fence.

[sugarFO]

I hate random costume gacha things. Just let me buy the damn costume I want and leave me alone with random gambling crap!

[D-Inferno]

My biggest worries with the cash shop is the skill tree. As you can probably see, the gear gauges being separated, as well as Techniques, mean that one will likely have to invest in multiple trees just to be more efficient in certain areas. The worst part is if individual areas introduce a mix of enemy weaknesses, and thus could lead to one having to have a skill tree with those combination of elements maxed out.

Oh yeah, 200 AC for a simple go at the Gacha is way too much. Granted, you could probably just trade the Gacha clothing you got for the one you desire assuming they are of equal value (CAST parts are annoying though, since you basically got to find three of everything).

[pikachief]

My biggest worries with the cash shop is the skill tree. As you can probably see, the gear gauges being separated, as well as Techniques, mean that one will likely have to invest in multiple trees just to be more efficient in certain areas. The worst part is if individual areas introduce a mix of enemy weaknesses, and thus could lead to one having to have a skill tree with those combination of elements maxed out.

Oh yeah, 200 AC for a simple go at the Gacha is way too much. Granted, you could probably just trade the Gacha clothing you got for the one you desire assuming they are of equal value (CAST parts are annoying though, since you basically got to find three of everything).

JP PSU had random clothes Gachas and there were always the really cheap colors / outfits and the very very expensive color / outfits. Some are just way more popular than others so they will be set a much higher value.

[Enforcer MKV]

[SPOILER-BOX]Frankly, saying LoL's Cash Shop doesn't count is...well, bollocks. It's a good example of how to do the cash shop, and emulating it would in no way be a bad thing. I really don't want to be that guy - but their cash shop is good. That's just how it is.[/SPOILER-BOX]

Now, giving a good example of a Cash Shop that "I" like, is Champions Online - BEFORE Perfect World took them over. The shop sold aesthetic items, boosts (Exp boosts, and the like.) inventory boosts, and the like. When player housing was made available, it was through the Cash shop. There was none of this Grab bag crap that is in there now. And while the game itself is a bit hit or miss, the Character Customization is arguably better than PSO2's.

And there really isn't anything to hate about Cash Shops. It's just when Companies start abusing them that it's a problem.

[jaychaulives]

I hope in future, they would have separate premium item just for trading.

[EvilMag]

I seriously hate how they are more or less making you pay for your fuck ups. "Hoho you accidentally died in a mission that you can't die or else failure, welp better pay up AC for a Scape Doll!"

I understand they need to make money but this is not how. At least PSU didn't go too crazy with Guardians Cash.

[Vylera]

If the cash shop doesn't offer game breaking stats, like insta-win rare weapons, pre +10 with max element stat, there's nothing wrong with it.

If you ever feel like items in a cash shop are necessary, then you're simply a victim of their marketing or your own greed.

Changing your looks is probably the most common and, I would say, most widely accepted item to have in cash shops. Permanent, statless.

Let's be honest here; for a F2P game, PSO2 probably has one of the best character customization around. The character I made at day 1 is a character look that I made to last my ENTIRE CAREER. I don't build characters to plan on adding cash shop items to them. Hell, at least the standard armor mods you get actually change your look unlike in PSO1/BB.

And this is probably something that applies to only me, but having played PSO1 solo, offline mode only, having no trade, no cash shop, no extra goodies is something that I'm completely used to. Compared to most traditional MMOs out there, finding items for yourself is EXTREMELY EASY. Especially since they got rid of Section IDs, you can find everything you need on just one character now.

And because PSO2 isn't a point-and-click fest, a skilled player can complete any mission with any reasonable caliber of findable items. Stats in this game are a time-saver, and you aren't bound to any form of unreasonable RNG as far as combat is concerned.

As far as 1 character limit is concerned, ever heard of a second account?


If you want to take a look at cash shops that have concerns, you might want to go look at all of Nexon, ijji, and OGPlanet. You'll find some BIG problems there, and appreciate the fact that you won't find or need any of that crap in PSO2.

[jaychaulives]

huh? you still need premium to even do the very basic of player trading.

[Vylera]

huh? you still need premium to even do the very basic of player trading.


but having played PSO1 solo, offline mode only, having no trade, no cash shop, no extra goodies is something that I'm completely used to..

Haven't most of us played PSO1/BB?

[jaychaulives]

I haven't, I'm not complaining though. I will buy the premium just to be able to trade.

[Vylera]

I haven't, I'm not complaining though. I will buy the premium just to be able to trade.

If I'm not mistaken, you're allowed to buy from player shops even without premium.

Premium is only if you want to sell.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Blackheart521]

If I'm not mistaken, you're allowed to buy from player shops even without premium.

Premium is only if you want to sell.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

you are correct my good sir ^^

[Ifrian-x]

To be honest i will never understand why are people against cash shops selling imba gear when it comes to non competitive non pvp based games like pso2.

In the end, that player with the "awesome gear" will either help you because he´s in your party or simply won´t affect your gameplay experience at all since he will not be in your party.

Sure, you can tell me that having good gear from the start will make him advance faster and perhaps even find a few items faster than the non cash shop players, but in the end, who cares?

Him spending money on those items keeps YOUR GAME from closing and it does not affect you in any direct way.

I am against OP gear in cash shops as well when it comes down to pvp centric games for obvious reasons, but when it comes to games like PSO2, what´s the deal?

You feel bothered by a random guy who´s paying so you can play for free sitting in lobby with a cooler sword than yours?

P.S: I am not trying to mock anyone or sound offensive, i just do not understand it.

[Vylera]

To be honest i will never understand why are people against cash shops selling imba gear when it comes to non competitive non pvp based games like pso2.

In the end, that player with the "awesome gear" will either help you because he´s in your party or simply won´t affect your gameplay experience at all since he will not be in your party.

Sure, you can tell me that having good gear from the start will make him advance faster and perhaps even find a few items faster than the non cash shop players, but in the end, who cares?

Him spending money on those items keeps YOUR GAME from closing and it does not affect you in any direct way.

I don't think we can completely count out the possibility of PvP when the game has only just reached OBT.

Also, the concern with IMBA gear comes in when the cash shop community develops superiority complex and refuses to play with non cash shop players. It happens to a certain degree in most stat-beneficial cash shop games. Some people are just selfish and don't want to waste time on having "undergeared" players "dragging them down."

However, in the case that NO one develops a flock superiority complex and cash shop users actually use the cash shop for their own enjoyment and not for their e-peen and fake rights to rule other players, I'd have no problems with it, too.

Essentially, the core problem is not the items, but how people change when given power at a click's whim.

[AlMcFly]

To be honest i will never understand why are people against cash shops selling imba gear when it comes to non competitive non pvp based games like pso2.

In the end, that player with the "awesome gear" will either help you because he´s in your party or simply won´t affect your gameplay experience at all since he will not be in your party.



Agreed, games like PSO2 that have no pvp aspects currently can really only benefit from cash shops. Gear in these games will help you gain an advantage against an npc boss fight, but skill can easily make up for the minor stat gains. Rare gear in this game is purely important for bragging rights and epeen-type people. All I care about is looking good :D

[RocSage]

Because it does effect your game because when they just happen to come in and play with you they tend to ruin your game, by having that huge advantage. Also people who pay for that type of stuff are short term people most of the time and don't provide as much money as several other items that don't require game breaking stuff.

[AzureBlaze]

My main concern vs it is the gambling aspect.

I HATE gambling & think it's bogus & frusterating.
So, I hate the whole gambling aspect of stupid 'scratch off cards'. I know they made it less risky / whatever when they knocked out the '10 cards for rappy' or something but...

If you went into a store to buy a bag of chips would you still buy it if:

It was a vending machine with 1 button. You put in your 5 bucks and any 1 of 15 items could come out when you press the button. No returns. Half of them aren't even food. Then 4 are foods you hate. 2 items are really common: a pebble & a empty tin can. Everyone already owns the pebble & the can, so you can't trade or sell either one.

No one would use the machine. It's totally obvious you'd waste money. The chance is too low to get what you want when you want it. That part to me is the part I object to. Sure you COULD trade it to someone (if you buy the premium course!) but good luck with that when you get the common/garbage/easiest 1 on the card that everyone else already has 3 of. Just because you CAN trade it off doesn't mean you'll be guarenteed to swap for something you wanted/if ever so that doesn't make the card innocent/'harmless' for dispensing the wrong thing---you still wasted your money and got nothing.

I was ready to pay a fee like psu had
Premium course w/e doesn't bother me at all, because I was ready for the fee anyway and treat it as subscription from the start, they got to get money for making the game run properly & etc, and the fee isn't terrible. I paid PSU & PSO, why not this?

But extorting money by not releasing any good costumes* and then making people roll for lame stuff a billion times to grab their cash by
Purposefully Making People Pay for Things They Hate
or will never use is NOT a good way to keep customers.

**No one can tell how good the free costumes will be once the final releases, or if they'll ocaisionally throw people a bone with more costumes down the line/future. Infinity did well that way, with pay & free ones too. I have confidence they won't leave everyone out in the cold just to push their scratch n gambles. As an android I'm like...way upset at these beta options, but I understand that its beta so I'm chill so far.

[Mike]

I HATE gambling & think it's bogus & frusterating.
So, I hate the whole gambling aspect of stupid 'scratch off cards'. I know they made it less risky / whatever when they knocked out the '10 cards for rappy' or something but...
Which is why I'm not going to bother using the scratch cards. I have no real problems with the any of the other AC items, aside from being a bit too expensive maybe, but the gacha style of charging for things in Japan and lockboxes in the US are blights. Money earning blights. Completely optional money earning blights with no cure in sight.

[Enforcer MKV]

[SPOILER-BOX]
To be honest i will never understand why are people against cash shops selling imba gear when it comes to non competitive non pvp based games like pso2.

In the end, that player with the "awesome gear" will either help you because he´s in your party or simply won´t affect your gameplay experience at all since he will not be in your party.

Sure, you can tell me that having good gear from the start will make him advance faster and perhaps even find a few items faster than the non cash shop players, but in the end, who cares?

Him spending money on those items keeps YOUR GAME from closing and it does not affect you in any direct way.

I am against OP gear in cash shops as well when it comes down to pvp centric games for obvious reasons, but when it comes to games like PSO2, what´s the deal?

You feel bothered by a random guy who´s paying so you can play for free sitting in lobby with a cooler sword than yours?

P.S: I am not trying to mock anyone or sound offensive, i just do not understand it.
[/SPOILER-BOX]
One of the main issues is the divide that forms between those who have and those who have not. Having some sort of exclusive item or perceived 'superior' item (note: it does not in fact have to be better, it's about how the weapon is perceived. If people think it looks cool, it can still breed it.) can cause players to form a sort of superiority complex. They think they're better just because they have a cool weapon that they paid money for. It happens in both PvP as well as PvE. I haven't really been on the receiving end, but I've heard stories, and I take them on good faith to be trustworthy. It tends to focus on items that directly affect combat, it seems, because I've never had someone act superior just because of the clothes they were wearing.

Also: think of it this way; if they start placing weapons into the cash shop, what is stopping them from making those weapons superior to the weapons obtained from normal gameplay, as an added incentive to buy them? This could be compounded by other things, but I won't go into details. If that starts to happen, we've officially began treading into dangerous waters. Waters that I'd rather avoid altogether by having every weapon in the game be readily available to those who are willing to search for it by normal, non-real-world-currency involved methods.

[LatinWolf]

my only real quirk is that Sega is making you for basic MMO necessities (storage, being able to trade?) if they only stuck to cosmetic things like extra outfits or short cuts ( exp boost, intro level weapons) I wouldn't mind as much. Heck I would probably buy a costume or two ( i buy skins on LoL all the time).

I really hate how it's supposed to be F2P, but they're essentially forcing our hands (the inventory space issue is a BIG concern. do we even get off char inventory space?)

[Blackheart521]

my only real quirk is that Sega is making you for basic MMO necessities (storage, being able to trade?) if they only stuck to cosmetic things like extra outfits or short cuts ( exp boost, intro level weapons) I wouldn't mind as much. Heck I would probably buy a costume or two ( i buy skins on LoL all the time).

I really hate how it's supposed to be F2P, but they're essentially forcing our hands (the inventory space issue is a BIG concern. do we even get off char inventory space?)

Inventory space isn't a concern, we get 50 slots on character and 200 bank slots, we can even put items into our bank from the field... I'm assuming you didn't know this though, correct?

[Mike]

(storage, being able to trade?)
You start with an item box that holds 200 items. That's something a fair amount. Once people get to rare hoarding it may not be but I haven't been able to make a dent in it yet. Trading could be argued though.

[Halcyote]

you do; everyone gets 200 slots of extra storage and also has access to the players market if you need to buy something.

trading would be nice, but i'm not too concerned since i'm used to it from playing JPPSU.

my only concern is the skill tree stuff since that's what the bulk of the gameplay is going to be reliant on.

[youcantcatchtheblue]

So far all the announced cash stuff are purely aesthetic and doesn't affect gameplay. Sakai has promised to keep it that way, so I don't think you will have to pay for extra quests or pay for special weapons / rares. Costumes make your character look cool, but it has no effect on stats whatsoever, so you'll still need to do all the hard work of improving your character by actually playing the game and hunting for rares.

[Sp-24]

So far all the announced cash stuff are purely aesthetic and doesn't affect gameplay. Sakai has promised to keep it that way, so I don't think you will have to pay for extra quests or pay for special weapons / rares. Costumes make your character look cool, but it has no effect on stats whatsoever, so you'll still need to do all the hard work of improving your character by actually playing the game and hunting for rares.
Not all of those are purely aesthetic, we already have Mags and skills resets as AC stuff, not even to mention My Shop, without which you losing a big part of the game. And, if I know anything about free to play games, it's only going to get worse.

[youcantcatchtheblue]

Not all of those are purely aesthetic, we already have Mags and skills resets as AC stuff, not even to mention My Shop, without which you losing a big part of the game. And, if I know anything about free to play games, it's only going to get worse.

Well for shops, if I recall correctly you can still buy things from other people's shops, so the only thing you're really losing by not having your own shop is meseta... which you can get from grinding.

skill reset & mags... ok yeah it is game changing, but that just means you have to carefully plan out what kind of mag & skills you want from the start. It's not like you get a more powerful mag with cash or more skill points with cash.

[Sp-24]

skill reset & mags... ok yeah it is game changing, but that just means you have to carefully plan out what kind of mag & skills you want from the start. It's not like you get a more powerful mag with cash or more skill points with cash.
True, it's just that it's almost impossible to plan carefully at this point, when we still know next to nothing about the game. Sega is pretty eager to rebalance the game should the need arise, too, which is a good thing, if they let us reallocate our skills afterwards. But I doubt they'll let us do it unless they do something massive, like fully rebuilding skill trees or something.

As for trading, my main problem here isn't that I can't set up a shop - I've never been into this anyway. What really sucks is that I can't even just give some sweet sword that I've just found but am never going to use to my friend who's into that thing. That's about as annoying as the "Stamina" system in some other "free" to play games.

[AlMcFly]

As for trading, my main problem here isn't that I can't set up a shop - I've never been into this anyway. What really sucks is that I can't even just give some sweet sword that I've just found but am never going to use to my friend who's into that thing.

I agree. Not being allowed to trade without paying monthly isn't really that fun.

[Silver_Wyrm]

so what all does the sub give? If they expect us to pay a sub for basic functions (like trading) then also expect us to toss money into clothes and respecs...then this is a terrible model. I know nothing about the sub though, what it do?

[Mike]

so what all does the sub give? If they expect us to pay a sub for basic functions (like trading) then also expect us to toss money into clothes and respecs...then this is a terrible model. I know nothing about the sub though, what it do?
There aren't subscriptions so to speak because it doesn't have recurrening payments. You buy the ability to use something for a block of time like your room or your shop. These are the things you could buy blocks of time for from the closed beta.


Premium Set, 30 days (Allows you to trade, open a shop, and own a room)
Premium Set, 60 days
Premium Set, 90 days
My Room Ticket, 30 days
My Shop Ticket, 30 days
Storage 1 Ticket, 30 days (Allows you to use Storage Box 1)
Storage 1 Ticket, 90 days
Storage 2 Ticket, 30 days (Allows you to use Storage Box 2)
Storage 2 Ticket, 90 days
Storage 3 Ticket, 30 days (Allows you to use Storage Box 3)
Storage 3 Ticket, 90 days


When the game launches, the Premium Set will also allow access to a "premium block," a server block only for people who have purchsed this set.

[eharima]

If they expect us to pay a sub for basic functions (like trading) then also expect us to toss money into clothes and respecs...then this is a terrible model.

Could you explain to me, in your opinion, why you think this is a terrible business model, and how you would 'improve' it?

Genuinely interested, not trollan.

[Ezodagrom]

As for trading, my main problem here isn't that I can't set up a shop - I've never been into this anyway. What really sucks is that I can't even just give some sweet sword that I've just found but am never going to use to my friend who's into that thing. That's about as annoying as the "Stamina" system in some other "free" to play games.

I agree. Not being allowed to trade without paying monthly isn't really that fun.
Trading is nice and all, but it is not a necessity, it's possible to play the game without trading at all.

Also, would you really need to trade with other players every single month? You could just alternate between free and premium, for example playing 2 months for free and 1 month premium (of course, you would have to get premium during a time your friend would have premium as well, so you could both trade).

If anything, there should be a separate subscription for trading, like there is for having a room and having a shop.

[AlMcFly]

Trading is nice and all, but it is not a necessity, it's possible to play the game without trading at all.

Also, would you really need to trade with other players every single month? You could just alternate between free and premium, for example playing 2 months for free and 1 month premium (of course, you would have to get premium during a time your friend would have premium as well, so you could both trade).

If anything, there should be a separate subscription for trading, like there is for having a room and having a shop.

I guess what we'll have to do is horde as many good items as we can fit into the limited space and then set up shop for a month to sell it all, rinse and repeat. We could announce in the trading forum when our shops come online and offline. The fact that it isn't recurring might help to cut down on those months that we just don't play enough to warrant a subscription.

[DemonMike]

My only concern is if this all goes horribly wrong and they don't see a return. What then? Revert to a subscription based game? What about the remaining balance of the packages people bought when the transition happens?

This is what makes me feel uneasy about putting money into the game.

[Mike]

This is what makes me feel uneasy about putting money into the game.
The game will eventually end anyways and any time or money you sunk in to it will be gone anyways so why worry?

[Ezodagrom]

My only concern is if this all goes horribly wrong and they don't see a return. What then? Revert to a subscription based game? What about the remaining balance of the packages people bought when the transition happens?

This is what makes me feel uneasy about putting money into the game.
Well, for them to be using this payment model in PSO2, most likely they should be getting more money from PSU JP now that it has a free to play/premium/clothing gatchas model than they did when it was a subscription based game.

[Razelis]

I find it kind of funny that people compare the "premium set" to a subscription. That's a smart marketing move on SEGA's part since it worked on most people here lol.

instead of making the game P2P, they make it both P2P (for very basic "features" like trading and storing)

And while you P2P other games and get everything the game has to offer, here you only get the BASIC of it.

A full P2P game is much better for the people who plan to buy Premium set. You shouldnt be content with the Premium set since that means that you do NOT get everything in the game by subscribing (like any other 99% p2p games do) but you get only the basics of it, if you want the rest - pay more!

I much rather P2P monhtly and get access to: All cloths, all items, all weapons, normal grind rates, no mess up in skills, scape dolls, storage, inventory space, MAG, no mess up with MAGs, My room, access to all decorations and the list just goes on and WILL expand over time.

Instead you guys are going to p2P a game monthyl and only get: Trading (lol every other game offer that feature for free), my room, and storage, think thats it.

Oh, adn you're content with that too.

So SEGA both steals your money AND keep you happy about it.

As i said - brilliant marketing!

[Mike]

Oh, adn you're content with that too.

So SEGA both steals your money AND keep you happy about it.
Or you can not pay anything and be perfectly happy with doing so.

[Razelis]

Or you can not pay anything and be perfectly happy with doing so.

Oh, I won't pay anything (or at least not the premium set)

But surely won't be perfectly happy.

Perfectly happy for me would mean monthly fees with access to everything.

Anyway my point was more about how Premium set =/= normal subscription, since it's pretty far from it and is just milking.

[DemonMike]

The game will eventually end anyways and any time or money you sunk in to it will be gone anyways so why worry?

This isn't what I meant. Of course we all know the game will eventually come to an end, a minimum of 4 years and I'm happy. My concern is what if it becomes apparent very early that the model isn't working and how will they deal with those who have plenty of time left of their premium packages? In fact, ignoring that, there's the big problem of possibly having to rebalance the game.

[Ezodagrom]

I find it kind of funny that people compare the "premium set" to a subscription. That's a smart marketing move on SEGA's part since it worked on most people here lol.

instead of making the game P2P, they make it both P2P (for very basic "features" like trading and storing)

And while you P2P other games and get everything the game has to offer, here you only get the BASIC of it.

A full P2P game is much better for the people who plan to buy Premium set. You shouldnt be content with the Premium set since that means that you do NOT get everything in the game by subscribing (like any other 99% p2p games do) but you get only the basics of it, if you want the rest - pay more!

I much rather P2P monhtly and get access to: All cloths, all items, all weapons, normal grind rates, no mess up in skills, scape dolls, storage, inventory space, MAG, no mess up with MAGs, My room, access to all decorations and the list just goes on and WILL expand over time.

Instead you guys are going to p2P a game monthyl and only get: Trading (lol every other game offer that feature for free), my room, and storage, think thats it.

Oh, adn you're content with that too.

So SEGA both steals your money AND keep you happy about it.

As i said - brilliant marketing!
And while in p2p games you usually have to first buy the client (and possibly buy expansion packs later on) and you need to pay the subscription just to be able to play online, in here you don't have to pay anything at all to play, and even if you want to use premium features occasionally, you don't have to pay for premium every single month, you can just pay for it when you actually need its features.

About clothes, if I'm not mistaken arks scratch clothes can be sold in the player shops, so it will be possible to get other players unwanted clothes for meseta.

About Scape Dolls, honestly I'm glad they're exclusive to the cash shop, if scape dolls were available like in PSU, dieing wouldn't mean anything in PSO2.

Normal grind rates? Being p2p didn't stop vanilla PSU from having really low grind rates that destroyed your weapon when the grinding failed.

Storage and Inventory space? 50 inventory slots and 200 storage spaces is not enough? Plus when you get a premium storage box and deposit items into it, after the premium time is over you can still withdraw items from that premium box, you can't just deposit items there. This sounds fair enough for me.

About skill tree and mag resets, well, if you don't want to spend money in these, just gotta be careful with these. If in the end you screw up a skill tree or mag build, well, it's not like the game will suddenly become unplayable because of this, either endure it or buy a reset.
In the case of skill trees and mags, I'm just happy there's no exclusive cash shop mag evolutions or exclusive cash shop skills for the skill tree. Asking money for a skill tree reset or a new mag in a f2p game is not too bad.

[Sp-24]

Also, would you really need to trade with other players every single month? You could just alternate between free and premium, for example playing 2 months for free and 1 month premium (of course, you would have to get premium during a time your friend would have premium as well, so you could both trade).

I don't need to trade every month, of course. Or maybe I do. I actually don't know when will something drop, and how much will others value it! But I'm not actually a good merchant, so maybe I don't need trading at all. But, what do you know, here's a red box that my friend wanted. So, what now? Do I pay for the whole month just to use a basic function once?

Yes, I'm being a tightwad here. But what do I get for paying? The ability to give items and receive something in return, access to a useless room and, as I hear, more storage space. Want even more storage space? Pay more. Want to get a new outfit, or change the color of an existing one? Pay for it. Screwed up your mag or skill tree? You guessed it. This game's premium, which costs as much as a subscription to a full MMO, offers some of the most basic functions, but you still have to pay even more for some other basic ones. I want to support Sega, but this money milking is just disgusting - you get access to 1/2 of the game without paying, and to 2/3 after paying the equivalent of a monthly subscription to a pay to play MMORPG - and naturally it makes me want to consider if it's actually worth it.


And while in p2p games you usually have to first buy the client (and possibly buy expansion packs later on) and you need to pay the subscription just to be able to play online, in here you don't have to pay anything at all to play, and even if you want to use premium features occasionally, you don't have to pay for premium every single month, you can just pay for it when you actually need its features.

That's not necessarily true. There are games like EVE Online, where the client costs nothing at all, and you only buy the subscription, after which you get access to the full game.

EVE in particular is actually an interesting example: you can buy the subscription in the form of an item, and then sell it to others for in-game currency, so for some people, that game can be free to play if they can make enough cash in-game and are able to find a good deal. However, that game has a fully functional user-driven market, that comes with the rest of the game after you get a subscription, unlike PSO2, where only people who pay Sega directly decide how does the market work.


About skill tree and mag resets, well, if you don't want to spend money in these, just gotta be careful with these. If in the end you screw up a skill tree or mag build, well, it's not like the game will suddenly become unplayable because of this, either endure it or buy a reset.

Being careful doesn't mean anything right now. Next to nothing is known about the game - your carefully planned idea for a perfect setup may turn out to be a piece of crap once you reach that one skill at level 12 or higher and realise that it doesn't work the way you imagined it to, and you won't be able to do anything about it other than pay money or delete your character. Does your bank get wiped if you delete it, by the way?

[youcantcatchtheblue]

Does your bank get wiped if you delete it, by the way?

From the Costume Backlogging thread, it appears that you get to keep everything in your storage even if you delete your character and make another one. In Pre-Beta at least. Hopefully it stays that way. I dn't know how willing I would be to delete a character I put my blood sweat & tears into just to reset my skill-tree though...

[Ezodagrom]

you get access to 1/2 of the game without paying, and to 2/3 after paying the equivalent of a monthly subscription to a pay to play MMORPG
I don't see how extra clothes, a player shop, a trading feature, the room, extra inventory/storage spaces, and boost items make up half of the game.


But, what do you know, here's a red box that my friend wanted. So, what now? Do I pay for the whole month just to use a basic function once?
You either store the item that your friend wants in the storage and both of you get a subscription at a time when you have more things you would like to trade with each other (there's other things you could save up to trade with your friend other than that specific rare weapon, like photon art disks that may be of an higher level than what your friend has, for example), or you could just not get a subscription at all. The rare weapon would be nice for your friend, but it's not like he can't play with the weapons he would already have at the time.

As convenient as trading is, it's not that much of a necessity to play the game, would be nice if it was available in a separate subscription, but if it's been decided that it's going to be available only in premium, nothing much can be done about it (unless a significan number of japanese players complain about this and they change their decisions)...

[Sp-24]

I don't see how extra clothes, a player shop, a trading feature, the room, extra inventory/storage spaces, and boost items make up half of the game.

How much do they make up, then? Even less, right? As I said before, it's a replacement for the Stamina feature: they show you a part of the game, then make you pay for some of the essential features. In the end, players who want to enjoy the game have to pay way more than they would in a pay to play game.


You either store the item that your friend wants in the storage and both of you get a subscription at a time when you have more things you would like to trade with each other (there's other things you could save up to trade with your friend other than that specific rare weapon, like photon art disks that may be of an higher level than what your friend has, for example), or you could just not get a subscription at all. The rare weapon would be nice for your friend, but it's not like he can't play with the weapons he would already have at the time.

Well, without paying, you lose a major aspect that was making the original PSO so good. And unlike a level number or instant items, I feel that this one is a very significant loss.


As convenient as trading is, it's not that much of a necessity to play the game, would be nice if it was available in a separate subscription, but if it's been decided that it's going to be available only in premium, nothing much can be done about it (unless a significan number of japanese players complain about this and they change their decisions)...

Well, the whole reason why this thread was made is because people don't like it, and being able to do very little to stop it is the last thing that is going to stop us from expressing our concerns.

[hbmizzle10]

in all actuality i think that sega should just separate the trading, mag, character resets and my room from the premium part. it may not be the "core" part of the game but it can be especially annoying when you have to pay over and over again just to get the full experience or if you want to experiment with something. in a way it's like sega saying"know what your doing before you do it or else your going to pay for it(literally and metaphorically speaking)" that's not a good way treat newer people to the experience of this game(if they are veterans of this game or not).

[Ezodagrom]

in all actuality i think that sega should just separate the trading, mag, character resets and my room from the premium part. it may not be the "core" part of the game but it can be especially annoying when you have to pay over and over again just to get the full experience or if you want to experiment with something. in a way it's like sega saying"know what your doing before you do it or else your going to pay for it(literally and metaphorically speaking)" that's not a good way treat newer people to the experience of this game(if they are veterans of this game or not).
Mag/skill tree resets, new mags and new character slots are not a part of premium, each of them are obtained separately in the cash shop.
Room, creating a player shop, and extra storage slots, while those can be obtained in premium, they also have their own separate subscriptions.
Trading though, that one is available only through premium, unfortunately.

[hbmizzle10]

ah woops had it wrong then lol

[Silver_Wyrm]

Could you explain to me, in your opinion, why you think this is a terrible business model, and how you would 'improve' it?

Genuinely interested, not trollan.

I really liked how turbine ran lotro and ddo, you could buy chunks of content permanently, or pay for a premium subscription that gave you access to everything (which also came with some points per month)

I like this cash shop even LESS now that the stuff you have to buy is time based. Playing Vindictus it was mostly cosmetics (plus some other boosts) that you had to pay for and that has done fine. They are not only making s pay for basic functions, but repeatedly and different payments for different ones. I'd rather there was just a subscription and call it a day.

Again I have a lot of distrust for Sega, I love their games but they always throw in some horrible business attempt that practically ruins it (how many people did we lose in psu's first month of no updates). I already hear the clothes are some kind of random gacha, so now we need to pay monthly for different functions, and the cosmetic cash shop section is thrown to luck. This bodes very poorly.

edit: they made the system feel like a shitty korean mmo. Max inconvenience for not buying their stuff (lower grind rates, no resets, basic costume, loss of functions (trading), but the cost to do what I could in a P2P game, is likely much much more.

[AlMcFly]

(how many people did we lose in psu's first month of no updates?)

We lost a LOT! I even left for a time after about 3-4 months of crappy/half-assed updates. It's like they went on vacation to celebrate release or something lol.


I already hear the clothes are some kind of random gacha, so now we need to pay monthly for different functions, and the cosmetic cash shop section is thrown to luck. This bodes very poorly.

Dumb. All I have to say is dumb. I pay you money and I don't even get to pick which costume piece I want? Oh, I guess I can just sell this piece and buy the one I want from another player. Wait. You mean I have to give you more money in order to get rid of this item I never wanted in the first place? I guess I could just vendor it. Awesome. How much money did I just light on fire?

In my opinion it also hurts immersion and character interaction. "Hey man, I've seen like 4 of those rares drop. I'd give you one but, you know, I can't afford to be plopping cash down every time I want to just hand something to someone out of the kindness of my heart. Time is money and this isn't a charity game."

They've eliminated the incentive to freely be charitable to other players. In PSO I helped newbies all the time with free gear I really didn't have a use for. Just sat in the lobbies and felt like Santa Claus. Who the hell is going to pay for premium and then just give items away? Nobody. That's who. If you do, people will suspect you to be a hacker, duping items.