Somewhat Disappointed by PSO2

[Firecrystal]

PSO2 seems to have done some great things in the combat department, and in doing so has allowed its worlds to be a bit more vertical and open than they used to be. I especially enjoy the new PP mechanics and how they make forces a lot more viable at low levels.

The problems I do have with it are:

No variation in level aesthetics or design, even across stages. Entirely too linear map design for a Phantasy Star Online game.
Strictly quest-based gameplay with emphasis on time pressure, making it so that what little exploration there is feels rushed.


Note that none of these problems have anything to do with Arks Cash or problems confined to the Open Beta. These are things I expect to see no change in even with the English release, since by this time the game is mostly complete.

When I reached level 5, I thought maybe the game had changed to become something more like I was familiar with. I could get a mag, maybe see what Forest 2 looks like... What do you mean that was Forest 2? It looks exactly like Forest 1! Alright, I'll do the mission that grants access to the caves. Ooh, these are nice, maybe I'll actually get to see some cool new enemies and scenery... Nope, this is pretty much the forest but with lava. I found the lava rappies, the lava wolves, and something that was kind of like a cross between a Delsaber and a Nano Dragon only less intimidating and awesome than either of those things. Oh, and the not-so-giant enemy crabs, which followed me into the next stage completely unchanged.

What I expected when I saw PSO2 was something that took what the developers learned from PSU and applied it to the old PSO, coming out with something that could top both of them in terms of gameplay, exploration and cool new weapons. What I got was something that wore the mask of PSO, but underneath it all might as well have been Final Fantasy but without cutscenes or even fancy doors to make it look less like you're walking along a very pretty line with occasional dead-ends and short loops in it.

Sure, someone might bring up all the work that went into the models they're using, and how much effort it takes to make them, yet somehow, the old PSO, the one for dreamcast, managed to make every new stage something to look forward to, even when it did have to make them in close quarters to hide its limitations. I hope to see more of that in future titles, but quite honestly I can't expect it. Even if this game turned out to be a flop, someone would construe it as meaning people weren't interested in PSO anymore and do away with the whole IP.

At least the bosses are good. On the other hand, I might as well play Shadow of the Colossus or Monster Hunter, because those games put at least a little thought into what goes in between you and the bosses.

Is anyone else quite as disappointed as I am about the latest title in the series?

[Aishiteru]

Im also starting to get bored of pso2..

[Adelheid]

My gripes with PSO2:

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2780071#post2780071

[Coatl]

I think for for an MMO, you shouldn't try to compare it to Shadow of the Colossus, which can be finished in a time span of ten hours. Just doesn't seems fair.

[probably]

The free fields are somewhat closer to the longer areas from the original games (complete with end boss).
Time pressure only applies to Koffee's missions, which are used to unlock more areas.

[Coatl]

The free fields are somewhat closer to the longer areas from the original games (complete with end boss).
Time pressure only applies to Koffee's missions, which are used to unlock more areas.

This.
After your hard work of completing a timed boss run, you are awarded with a free field! Then you can loaf around as much as you want.

[gravityvx]

My only problem right now is casts don't have detect trap anymore(lol. and can use spells). At least I think they don't since every single one I've partied with face checked them all. Not game breaking but I thought it was cool how all races were unique in pso now they are all just same thing with different skin. A small issue compared to the large list of the good, So far, very satisfied with the sequel I've been waiting for since dreamcast days, hated psu. A lot of the areas that lead to bosses are always pretty fun for me, never know what's just gonna pop out on the way there and I never get tired of taking down a bunch of back to back boss encounters with a large group of people. All that said, the level requirements for hard mode areas could also use some looking at, the caves at the very least. :|

I don't know how far you've gotten but give it a bit more time, you might come to enjoy it.

[gigawuts]

I can agree the original had something this game just lacks - PSU lacked it for me as well. I can't pin it down, and honestly it may just come down to nostalgia. I don't think it does, though. The maps do seem linear - or more specifically too small and thus Point A and Point B are seemingly closer. A good solution to that is having multiple paths between multiple open fields at once, instead of just a squiggly X-shape where two random legs are chosen for the path in and the path out.

What PSO2 could also benefit from is the kind of variety you saw in Caves 1/2/3 in the original. It wasn't just the scenery that got different as you went in - the enemies did too. Pan Arms and Nano Dragons started showing up more towards the end, for instance.

They could definitely add some new elements to the free roam levels with additional areas, too. The mines could be on the desert planet, and the desert would randomly branch off into it with some subterranean desert stuff from PSO Ep 4.

I definitely enjoy the combat itself despite loathing PSU, so the core of the game isn't an issue for me. The battle music, the depth of combat, and the variety of classes (even if they are kind of homogenized) really add to the gameplay. Some stats may need tweaking but that's not really a problem in an open beta (Or even a PVE game at all - so one guy is slightly more OP than another, big deal - also keep in mind that we haven't seen the curves of each class's stats at high levels). It's just the maps themselves that seem shallow, and since it's a beta and more stuff is in the works I won't hold it against them yet.

I adore PSO and even play it off and on to this day, loading up either the gamecube or PSOBB every 6 months or so to get in some fun with some friends. We also pretty much unanimously hated PSU for reasons we just can't pin down. That said, all in all I'm pleased with PSO2, especially given that more content is on the way. I do share most of your gripes but Sega has been VERY receptive to player feedback so far in a way that is very rare in game developers, especially for Sega's size and budget. I think they badly need this game to be a big seller, and have two considerably different yet similar games to look back on to see what worked and what didn't work.

If I could request one thing it would be simply some variety in levels - appearances, enemies, and tactics - as you progress through them. More specifically I would like more neon lights. Mines was always by far my favorite level for the brilliant colors it put together, as well as the music. It was fun to replay. If they can capture that then they'll be golden. For the mean time I'm still enjoying these emergency codes and the kind of hell they can bring when they collide. I'll never forgive myself for failing a code protect during a code attack and code duel...at least, not unless I get all three again and win.

[DreXxiN]

Sorry you don't enjoy the the game. The great news is there are a plefora of other RPGs out there that you can attempt to enjoy! Good luck in your endeavors!

[Adelheid]

The free fields are somewhat closer to the longer areas from the original games (complete with end boss).
Time pressure only applies to Koffee's missions, which are used to unlock more areas.

Somewhat closer in that they might take more than 10min to full clear but still not the hours of dungeon crawling fun that PSO was.

PSO2 is great fun, I just wish it was more PSO and less PSU.

[DreXxiN]

Somewhat closer in that they might take more than 10min to full clear but still not the hours of dungeon crawling fun that PSO was.

PSO2 is great fun, I just wish it was more PSO and less PSU.

The bolded portion is where I think people just became better at games..

Nothing took me even remotely close to an hour in PSO BB after a lot of experience to complete outside of maybe a full ep4 desert clear. o_o

[NoiseHERO]

The bolded portion is where I think people just became better at games..

Nothing took me even remotely close to an hour in PSO BB after a lot of experience to complete outside of maybe a full ep4 desert clear. o_o

This.

Also if you want... you could spend hours in there anyway.

I think the only thing that bugs me about the map design is that...

They definitely feel like randomly generated fields in the sense that after a while you realize they're just endless nothing. Besides the few uninteresting landmarks. At first I felt like I was exploring... Now I'm just more focused at looking at the map...

Also "Only beta" or not... after a week.. only having 4-5 areas is starting to feel like a legitimate complaint... Hopefully they update some more area eye candy after full release... While I still find it amusing to fight space demons in a parking lot.

[Adelheid]

A full clear of Caves with level appropriate progression on any difficulty was quite a long time, over and hour, generally. Mines and Ruins less so but they were still quite big and open roguelike designed maps. PSO has gone the PSU route of designing missions as little cul-de-sacs of the world you get thrown into.

And I have the opposite problem with the field generation, Caves/Mines/Ruins were more randomly generated than the current maps which -aren't- randomly generated they just pick from a large pool of pregenerated maps. I've seen the same maps quite a few times over already.

Yeah in PSO it was the same, just pregenerated combinations they choose from... but since the levels and even the rooms were vastly bigger and took much longer to complete you saw a lot less repetition.

And this has nothing to do with people getting better with games, as I still play the original PSO now. If you're rushing through for rares or bosses then of course it isn't going to take you close to an hour to complete but when you rush through on PSO2 it takes you about 2-3mins to complete.

For a full clear of caves1-3+boss it was generally over an hour, unless you way outgeared/leveled the place. But even if it wasn't an hour, the maps were still much larger and adhered to a roguelike design philosophy. There was a build up in how you progressed, the map would get darker in aesthetic and new enemies would pop up and eventually you'd come to that room you know has the boss teleporter in and your heart is racing because the atmosphere has built upto this moment when you fight this epic boss.

Whereas, as I said, PSO2 maps are little cul-de-sacs of boring scenery with almost nothing except the mission objective in them. Boss maps are exactly the same as any other map, there is no sense of emotional or atmospheric progression no sense of narrative told through scenery... and since the map design is basically a cul-de-sac you can pretty much skip straight to the boss, murder it then leave and repeat... I understand that it's easy for SEGA to design stuff this way, it costs so much less money... money they can put into character graphics and other things... but I'd rather have less pretty models as long as there was still an awesome RPG under it all and I got better map design for it.

That is, except for the codes, which are a great addition, though they are a seperate thing from level design and not much different to coming across a puzzle room or a dark room randomly placed in a PSO field.

[DreXxiN]

For a full clear of caves1-3+boss it was generally over an hour, unless you way outgeared/leveled the place. But even if it wasn't an hour, the maps were still much larger and adhered to a roguelike design philosophy. There was a build up in how you progressed, the map would get darker in aesthetic and new enemies would pop up and eventually you'd come to that room you know has the boss teleporter in and your heart is racing because the atmosphere has built upto this moment when you fight this epic boss.

I can see what you're saying here. The environment changing, your heart racing, and knowing what's coming due to said changes. I still remember the dark rooms and the super long epic hallway leading into the Falz fight..now THAT was some good design.

I can agree with you there...I forgot about it just because how under emphasized it is in modern game design. :(

[Adelheid]

Yeah that hallways before dark falz was always so insanely daunting.

[gigawuts]

Exactly. Back when PSO came out they had to work with what they had, so they used various storytelling tools and effects to do it. I don't mean to bring up a cliche, but it really did seem better back then. Now developers seem to favor graphics and appearance over level design and subtle details.

[Outrider]

Exactly. Back when PSO came out they had to work with what they had, so they used various storytelling tools and effects to do it. I don't mean to bring up a cliche, but it really did seem better back then. Now developers seem to favor graphics and appearance over level design and subtle details.

The thing is, people were saying this when the Playstation and N64 came out.

People are almost always going to have nostalgic love for the good things they remember when they were younger. So while you might think the new generation is all about flash and appearance, people who are growing up with this generation probably think it's fine. Of course, ten years from now, those people are going to have the same complaints about the new generation.

So it goes.

[gigawuts]

The thing is, people were saying this when the Playstation and N64 came out.

People are almost always going to have nostalgic love for the good things they remember when they were younger. So while you might think the new generation is all about flash and appearance, people who are growing up with this generation probably think it's fine. Of course, ten years from now, those people are going to have the same complaints about the new generation.

So it goes.

Yeah, and to an extent it was true then too. Then the issue is less that games are getting bad, and more that the absolutely top quality games are exactly as rare as they've always been - it's just we can see them all if we look back.

Only very carefully can a sequel surpass its predecessor. In staying the same you risk stagnation. In changing you risk alienating your fans. The tricky part is finding just the right combination of innovation and retention, enough to clearly step up the game, but not enough to turn it into a different game. I think that games like Zelda carefully (And arguably masterfully, although I wasn't fond of Skyward Sword) tread this line.

Then there's another route altogether: Intentionally changing. For example, Portal was a puzzle game with a story on the side - a great story, yes, but the primary focus was the puzzle in front of you. Portal 2 was a story game with a puzzle on the side. I loved Portal 1 to bits, I can't count how many times I've played through it. Many hardcore Portal 1 fans said Portal 2 had bad puzzles. I say it wasn't meant to be as challenging as the original, but instead it was meant to be a logical step forward with a quality story and the framework for the fans themselves to create the challenging puzzles with a whole slew of tools for themselves as well as the players. I think Portal 2 was the perfect sequel to Portal 1.

So PSO2 has changed up its combat. There's no more missing (good riddance, dice roll misses blow in games like PSO), both players and enemies have a wide variety of attacks (a big plus), and weapons have been condensed and rebalanced. So far so good, it's all pretty logical and none of it is unfun. The core gameplay has been upped. It's simply the actual levels themselves that need spicing up. I would say that for the most part Sega's done a good job at this point, what matters is what they do moving forward. It's been confirmed that the mines will be on the desert planet and the tundra will be on the forest planet. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. With some luck there will be some crossover and something to dehomogenize the levels, if not in every level then missions that sport broader elements of randomness and a sense of location, if not purpose. "Go here, kill rockbear" is not a good purpose if you killed a rockbear and got a change over then killed another rockbear on the way there. It's fun, no doubts, but not really a purpose.

[Tetsaru]

I've been rather aloof about PSO2 lately as well - didn't even play the open beta. And now, I hear it's being released in Japan with no word of being localized elsewhere, or having an English patch, and I can't help but wonder if we'll be starting down the PSU road again where, IF an English version comes out, it won't share the same servers, and we'll start lagging behind Japan again in updates...

Also, I've been noticing a trend lately with online RPG's: there's always some sort of major problem that arises shortly after release, or people immediately start to lose interest because of a lack of content, and then start comparing it to another game that's been out for years and has time to develop. FF14, Diablo 3, SW:TOR, and Tera, to my knowledge, have all had something along these lines happen, in some form or another.

Other than that, I've been very disappointed in the lack of character outfits and accessories (though I think they added a few recently), as well as the lack of weapon types. I saw no need in one gun being able to function as a rifle, AND a shotgun, AND a rocket launcher depending on what moves you had.

I think I'm just going to sit back and watch for now, and see how this progresses...