The Merits of Mag Defense

[RocSage]

So do you think that Defensive stats on a MAG is a good move or is it just a waste?

I'm sorta annoyed as it seems that if you don't put defense in your mag you can't equip any new defense units for quite a long while almost forcing you to put it in there.

Further it seems like ATK doesn't really increase damage as much as Defense mitigates damge.

So to DEF or not to DEF? That is the question.

[GoldenFalcon]

Well, hunters and rangers can easily put SP into the respective defense skills, for +50 in the stat

Add Stamina epsilons are better though, so might as well just get ability on your mag

[Zyrusticae]

I am also annoyed at how ABSURDLY HIGH the def requirements for units are.

They are so ABSURDLY HIGH that you cannot reach them unless you put tons of points into defenses AND put talent/mastery/whatever-the-fuck points into your class's respective def-type.

However, this has much less to do with mags having defensive stats and much more to do with Sega just being a bit dickish with regards to item attribute requirements...

[Zorafim]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.

[TetsuyaHikari]

I am also annoyed at how ABSURDLY HIGH the def requirements for units are.

They are so ABSURDLY HIGH that you cannot reach them unless you put tons of points into defenses AND put talent/mastery/whatever-the-fuck points into your class's respective def-type.

However, this has much less to do with mags having defensive stats and much more to do with Sega just being a bit dickish with regards to item attribute requirements...

umad?

(I'm still pissed that I can't have wings or a tail until I'm level 50 or some shit. Stupid crazy high r-def)

[GoldenFalcon]

umad?

(I'm still pissed that I can't have wings or a tail until I'm level 50 or some shit. Stupid crazy high r-def)

I don't like the Vol pieces. The 374 requirement things are so much better, and my ranger equips them no problem

[soulpimpwizzurd]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.

basically this

[RocSage]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.

I think I'm pretty good at dodging but i still get hit and get into spots where it is impossible to dodge.

As I said i don't think i have seen much damage increase from where i am now, but defense looks to do a lot more so +0 perceptual dmg output vs less damage taken it seems that even if it is made useless by dodging for the most part it is still better to take less damage when you do get hit than effectively adding what seems like nothing by adding more ATK

Get what I'm saying?

[TetsuyaHikari]

I don't like the Vol pieces. The 374 requirement things are so much better, and my ranger equips them no problem

Oh I know. There are better ones. I'd just love to have wings or a tail, lol.

[God of Awesome]

I am also annoyed at how ABSURDLY HIGH the def requirements for units are.

They are so ABSURDLY HIGH that you cannot reach them unless you put tons of points into defenses AND put talent/mastery/whatever-the-fuck points into your class's respective def-type.

However, this has much less to do with mags having defensive stats and much more to do with Sega just being a bit dickish with regards to item attribute requirements...

What kind of units are you typing about? Can you post a picture or describe them? I have a feeling I can equip them :D

[soulpimpwizzurd]

I think I'm pretty good at dodging but i still get hit and get into spots where it is impossible to dodge.

As I said i don't think i have seen much damage increase from where i am now, but defense looks to do a lot more so +0 perceptual dmg output vs less damage taken it seems that even if it is made useless by dodging for the most part it is still better to take less damage when you do get hit than effectively adding what seems like nothing by adding more ATK

Get what I'm saying?

in what situations do you claim it's impossible to dodge? it's silly, but even the panther duo attacks can be completely dodged if you constantly run perpendicular to them. the only possible problem is when the king panther does the growl and then the lunging reverse swipes

the small guy shouldn't matter because by then all his claws should be broken so he just slips andslides everywhere

[Coatl]

The unit requirements for units aren't high at all.
The requirements to wear the strongest units in the game are pretty high. But hey, if you aren't going to put points into defense, why should you get to wear strong armor?

The same goes for weapons.

[Cyclon]

I am also annoyed at how ABSURDLY HIGH the def requirements for units are.

They are so ABSURDLY HIGH that you cannot reach them unless you put tons of points into defenses AND put talent/mastery/whatever-the-fuck points into your class's respective def-type.

However, this has much less to do with mags having defensive stats and much more to do with Sega just being a bit dickish with regards to item attribute requirements...
Well, if you decide to specialize yourself in defense, I think it's normal that you get rewarded somehow. It wouldn't be fun if there was ONE single viable build per class with slight variations.

It also allows them to make you buy additional skill trees/mags, obviously:3

[Zyrusticae]

I should clarify: I think attribute requirements are a bit shit to begin with. The benefits of specializing in attack or defense should make themselves known through actual combat, not what you're allowed or not allowed to equip.

But then, as a player who is 99% focused on the vanity side of the game, being unable to use anything I like the appearance of is an immediate turn off. YMMV.

[GoldenFalcon]

I should clarify: I think attribute requirements are a bit shit to begin with. The benefits of specializing in attack or defense should make themselves known through actual combat, not what you're allowed or not allowed to equip.

But then, as a player who is 99% focused on the vanity side of the game, being unable to use anything I like the appearance of is an immediate turn off. YMMV.

I thought these games were always about equipment, so it shouldn't be a surprise at this point

[JeyKama]

But then, as a player who is 99% focused on the vanity side of the game, being unable to use anything I like the appearance of is an immediate turn off. YMMV.

Some vanity items you can thankfully just buy, whether through players who gambled with real money or through their shops. Some require you to build up your character - unique equipment is one example - and you can either level up, build your skill tree towards or, or spec a mag for it. This takes awhile, if not months for level caps. Skill trees and Mags can be messed with to a degree using real money.

If you can't equip something you like, then build your character towards it. Personally this system makes much more sense to me than "you must be level 23 to equip this shield", and between mags/skills/levelling you have tons more flexibility equipping gear than most other RPG-like games. And really the extra stat you need isn't a huge chunk unless you are hell-bent on glass-cannon builds.

[Macman]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/558695283826994631/92B360626CAEE95EFEF27E3BAEEC89B48D22121E/[/SPOILER-BOX]

Able to just barely use the Vol Dragon armor AND that 9* hotdog rifle with the ridiculous R-ATK requirement. (pic was taken before I bought said rifle)

8-)

Grinded the armor pieces to +10 and the defense bonuses are fantastic. I'm taking half the damage of all my friends now.

[MelancholyWitch]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.

Actually this is kinda wrong, some of the more rare units can have some nice abilities on them that increase R atk way more than how useful some ability would be on your mag. It just depends how good the units you have are or are trying to get. Some of the more skilled players have some good abilities/souls on their units like my +10 units. Helps with my R attack and in the future when they implement creatures/attacks that will be doing unavoidable damage, you will thank yourself greatly for the R def you have then, assuming you're a Ranger, Hunters can have good units too Right now though I think Forces are the ones with no 9 star units. (and also you don't necessarily have to go for the unit that provides def for your attack type, it just all depends on the abilities as I said.)

[CelestialBlade]

HP is a much better defensive stat IMO because it covers all three DEF types. I only see DEF having a benefit for armor stat requirements, and that's about it.

And I agree, they're pretty high, but I'm not gonna spend points on it just to shorten that.

[GoldenFalcon]

Actually this is kinda wrong, some of the more rare units can have some nice abilities on them that increase R atk way more than how useful some ability would be on your mag.

I think Forces are the ones with no 9 star units.

That's true for any unit.

And those were added with mines, actually

[MelancholyWitch]

Ah okay I haven't seen any drop at all really.

[JeyKama]

I think you're a bit wrong as well. There is no R-ATK on units other than the abilities that are on them (or get put on them). The humble 1* unit will increase your ATK stat exactly as much as your 9*+10, as long as they have the same abilities. Most units with the exception of some R-DEF-req ones also have bonus hp and/or pp that isn't seen until you equip them.

Anyway, my opinion is that dead DPS is no DPS. If you're godly enough to dodge everything, sure, but the first time I got drilled by a Tranmizer crossfire and lived with 5 health I was glad I had my 9*+10 armors.

[KrankItVZ]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.

Well you CAN dodge until enemies from behind send a fucking barrage of attacks and you just get destroyed... I was in a Hard Desert run and apparently there was like 4 of those cannon things pointed at me from the back... Next thing I knew my HP was at 0

[10011408V3.9]

As a merit for boosting defense, I would say, as a non-force wanting one of the Cetus Photon Blasts (FISH LAAAAAAAAAAAAZER!) so raising Tech Def would be a possibility.

[banhmy112]

For those with mags that have decent ability (like 50 or more) there is an extremely powerful unit to consider

サブ／アドスタミナε

At +10 (easy to get to) it has 120 striking defense, 100 ranged and magic defense, and +50 HP by default. I'd say it should be an obvious choice for all rangers (due to ability up 1 and 2 in skill tree)

Is this armor good for a Force? Im thinking of raising T-DEF on my mag for end-game armors, but this unit only requires ability so was wondering if i could use it instead.

[velociti]

If you guys remember pso1, being at lvl 40 does not unlock a lot of rare, good defensive equips. Also, you wouldn't have enough of the stat until lvl 80 to 120. I say wait until 120 and you will have 450 base defense on anything, so you can equip anything at that point. Also, remember you can max out dfp, or evp near lvl 180 (materials) and you don't need any defense on the mag - because its capped..

[Sigmund]

I pretty much agree with everyone who said that there should be perks for those who raised their base SDEF. I can't use any of the fancy 454 SATK requirement weapons, but at least I have cool looking units. Sitting on spikes in Mines taking 1 damage is pretty funny too~ I'm actually glad I went tanky, soloing some of these new maps can be such a pain as a Hunter. I'd say a balanced MAG that will let you equip both weapon and armor would be pretty good.

[Macman]

The game client doesn't even have stat sheets prepped beyond level 100, though.

Hell last I recall, level 50-51 actually made you LOSE a lot of stats, so who knows if they're even ready for going beyond a level 50 cap.

[JeyKama]

The Epsilon armors are quite nice for anyone really - cheap to grind (not that grinding armor is painful or anything) and pretty easy to equip. 289 ability required, so non-RAs will need 15-22 more Ability on their mag (depending on their rare/gender combo).

But really even when they raise the level cap, they WILL include new gear that also needs more ATK/DEF than you can have without a mag/skills.

[KrankItVZ]

The Epsilon armors are quite nice for anyone really - cheap to grind (not that grinding armor is painful or anything) and pretty easy to equip. 289 ability required, so non-RAs will need 15-22 more Ability on their mag (depending on their rare/gender combo).

But really even when they raise the level cap, they WILL include new gear that also needs more ATK/DEF than you can have without a mag/skills.

Which set is that? Def will be better than my oldass cross set

[Priest]

For those new FO armor peices, I would need 60 more tdef on a lvl 40 Newman FO, and thats a lot of commit to a mag. So it's either that or I should have about enough at level 50. It's a hard call because we want them NOW!

[Benesato]

I think I'm pretty good at dodging but i still get hit and get into spots where it is impossible to dodge.

As I said i don't think i have seen much damage increase from where i am now, but defense looks to do a lot more so +0 perceptual dmg output vs less damage taken it seems that even if it is made useless by dodging for the most part it is still better to take less damage when you do get hit than effectively adding what seems like nothing by adding more ATK

Get what I'm saying?

Simple rule of thumb,

If you kill things faster, they have less time to kill you. Unless it's a second mag for a boss that's a pain in the butt, I personally wouldn't do def.

[HFlowen]

Currently building a dedicated defense mag because wtf else am I gonna use that leftover 300AC on.

Dunno how I wanna spread it out though. 50/50/50? Only do Strike and Range 75/75/0?
No Idea, I'm just ramming armor into it for kicks.

[Metalsnake27]

I put in points on Defense every once in awhile, but yeah, I mostly focus on attack.

[MelancholyWitch]

I think you're a bit wrong as well. There is no R-ATK on units other than the abilities that are on them (or get put on them). The humble 1* unit will increase your ATK stat exactly as much as your 9*+10, as long as they have the same abilities. Most units with the exception of some R-DEF-req ones also have bonus hp and/or pp that isn't seen until you equip them.

Anyway, my opinion is that dead DPS is no DPS. If you're godly enough to dodge everything, sure, but the first time I got drilled by a Tranmizer crossfire and lived with 5 health I was glad I had my 9*+10 armors.

Did you even read what I said in my post? Most likely not but as I stated it isn't the unit itself but the abilities that add the R atk, since I was lucky to get vol armor units with some R atk abilities (and through some transfering of abilities from dudu) then those units in fact are much better than if I had not picked up r def and gone rest in ability instead. So yeah just saying they were +10 didn't mean that's why I got r atk from them. Please read more carefully before responding in such a manner.

[RocSage]

One of the reasons I'm considering this is the new classes and the fact that it is a pain to make a pure mag.

I have 5 mags right now.
LV 150 Cygnus - 74S-ATK/ 75ABL/ 1R-DEF
LV 103 Crux - 34S-ATK/ 34R-ATK/ 35ABL (thinking about adding 16S-DEF/16R-DEF/15ABL)
LV 50? future Carina - Balanced S-ATK and T-ATK, will have higher Striking when I evolve it
Lv 40? future Cepheus - all R-ATK
Lv 40? future Monoceros - All T-ATK

I can't help but feel that some DEF and/or ABL would be good for the Carina, and DEF would be good for the Monoceros, while Cepheus could probably use some ABL and forget the DEF because I don't get hit as a Ranger unless i'm being stupid.


As far as when you can't dodge. There is a delay where you can't dodge or more in general and you are vulnerable. So if you are facing more than one thing and dodge wrong you are screwed. Likewise there is always the blindsided thing that has been mentioned. I have literally been taken out from full health and not seen who or what did it, even after dying and scanning the area. It was probably a Spargun, but I don't know for certain. There is also the times when you just aren't feeling well, are distracted, are tired, or any other number of things that can keep you from being optimal.

So far the argument is "kill faster that way less chances to hit" which ignores the point that +20 dmg isn't going to make the different 99.99999% of the time and that seems to be the difference in attack power we are talking about by adding more ATK where as DEF it seems that the DEF mitigates an amount that makes a whole heap of difference when you are playing sub-optimal or sub-perfect which, for most people, is most of the time.

On top of that defense also might be more economically intelligent if you aren't a force because less damage = less healing and/or faster healing = less buying of mates/deaths


Did you even read what I said in my post? Most likely not but as I stated it isn't the unit itself but the abilities that add the R atk, since I was lucky to get vol armor units with some R atk abilities (and through some transfering of abilities from dudu) then those units in fact are much better than if I had not picked up r def and gone rest in ability instead. So yeah just saying they were +10 didn't mean that's why I got r atk from them. Please read more carefully before responding in such a manner.

What you're saying is you would prefer 3 units with 124 DEF (the best unit i can equip with no DEF MAG stuff grinded to +10) and Mutation II (40HP) and Stamina V (60HP) which would give a total of +300HP, than get 3 +217 DEF by adding +20 (i think that's the number for me) DEF to your MAG. In other words you think 300 HP is better than 260 DEF, but that also misses the fact that you can add that +300 HP to those units so you can have both... if you're lucky and rich.

[Coatl]

But really even when they raise the level cap, they WILL include new gear that also needs more ATK/DEF than you can have without a mag/skills.

This...
What is the point of waiting?

By the time you are able to equip the rares you can't now, you'll still be taking heavy damage from the enemies your level.

You will still be as fragile as wet paper.

[Dinosaur]

I feel that raising defense on MAGs is only important for Hunters. Hunter naturally puts itself into dangerous positions so taking hits is part of the job. That is, unless you're super god-like and Just Guard and Step EVERYTHING.

As for the other classes, it's not as important unless you find yourself actually getting hit(which can because of different playstyles). Force can easily avoid everything in the game as well as fight from great distances. Ranger is a mid-range fighter and will get personal with enemies from time to time. Ranger also has a vulnerable moments such as launcher use and dodge recovery frames. If you're not careful, getting R-Def for stronger units on RA might be a good idea.

[MelancholyWitch]

What you're saying is you would prefer 3 units with 124 DEF (the best unit i can equip with no DEF MAG stuff grinded to +10) and Mutation II (40HP) and Stamina V (60HP) which would give a total of +300HP, than get 3 +217 DEF by adding +20 (i think that's the number for me) DEF to your MAG. In other words you think 300 HP is better than 260 DEF, but that also misses the fact that you can add that +300 HP to those units so you can have both... if you're lucky and rich.

No what I'm saying is I'd prefer the units I have simply because of the abilities on them, not really the unit itself, it being +10 was just a bonus and since it is 8 stars it's not difficult at all to do that.

[Sigmund]

Did you even read what I said in my post? Most likely not but as I stated it isn't the unit itself but the abilities that add the R atk, since I was lucky to get vol armor units with some R atk abilities (and through some transfering of abilities from dudu) then those units in fact are much better than if I had not picked up r def and gone rest in ability instead. So yeah just saying they were +10 didn't mean that's why I got r atk from them. Please read more carefully before responding in such a manner.
Wow, there's nothing wrong in the way JeyKama responded. He actually attempted to decipher your attempt at English. I personally have no clue of what you are trying to say. You should be the one watching your attitude, good sir.

[Angelo]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.

It really depends, since you can't always watch your back. I'm building a defensive warcry HU and a tactic I use is to Warcry a group of enemies and then have them follow me while I attack the ones that missed the warcry. Many enemies have leaping/dashing attacks that you really can't dodge since they are readying their attack off camera while you're tying up other enemies. Another problem is if you have groups of enemies pissed off at you with ranged attacks (like the baby Metal Gears in the desert) they can hit your back without you ever noticing.

Still, it can clump them together nicely and make it easy for FOs and Launcher RAs. This is mainly for if you're doing missions 5+ your own level. Defense can be useful.

My main problem with the whole 'if you're GOOD you can just keep dodging and never get hit' is that the more you dodge within a really heated area, the less useful you are to your team because you're losing enemy control/hitstun/juggle and possibly even overall 'dps' (hate that term) by constantly darting around.

[Scarlet_Rain]

It's really just personal preference...Unless of course you're not using to equip a specific armor set the points are probably better allocated elsewhere.

[Dinosaur]

My main problem with the whole 'if you're GOOD you can just keep dodging and never get hit' is that the more you dodge within a really heated area, the less useful you are to your team because you're losing enemy control/hitstun/juggle and possibly even overall 'dps' (hate that term) by constantly darting around.

This is perfectly fine. If you are getting focused by many enemies, that just means you are buying time for your team to fight.

[Zipzo]

I think the general consensus is that defense is kind of a waste. You can (theoretically) dodge everything, but you can only kill so fast if all your attacks hit. So attack scales better with skill, while defense scales worse.
So, if you're skilled, attack is more noticeable. If you're not, defense may be more useful.These are pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

Although PSO is now an older game, one can easily remember that the most optimal mag builds never brought DEF above 5 (the basic starting defense stat for the mags). It didn't take much pondering on my end to really see how the same logic would translate in to PSO2. If you never get hit...all that defense goes to waste. Where as extra POW is constantly being utilized, because as your POW improved so did your damage.

Raise your hand if you were "5/145/50/0-er"!

[Metalsnake27]

I guess really also it just depends on if you actually need the defense.

If you do, then put some points in it, if not, then maximize your attack, or just put points it in anyways for good measure.

[NoiseHERO]

It really depends, since you can't always watch your back. I'm building a defensive warcry HU and a tactic I use is to Warcry a group of enemies and then have them follow me while I attack the ones that missed the warcry. Many enemies have leaping/dashing attacks that you really can't dodge since they are readying their attack off camera while you're tying up other enemies. Another problem is if you have groups of enemies pissed off at you with ranged attacks (like the baby Metal Gears in the desert) they can hit your back without you ever noticing.

Still, it can clump them together nicely and make it easy for FOs and Launcher RAs. This is mainly for if you're doing missions 5+ your own level. Defense can be useful.

My main problem with the whole 'if you're GOOD you can just keep dodging and never get hit' is that the more you dodge within a really heated area, the less useful you are to your team because you're losing enemy control/hitstun/juggle and possibly even overall 'dps' (hate that term) by constantly darting around.

Wait, shut up, what?

I CAN BRAINWASH ENEMIES???

[Coatl]

I feel that raising defense on MAGs is only important for Hunters. Hunter naturally puts itself into dangerous positions so taking hits is part of the job. That is, unless you're super god-like and Just Guard and Step EVERYTHING.

As for the other classes, it's not as important unless you find yourself actually getting hit(which can because of different playstyles). Force can easily avoid everything in the game as well as fight from great distances. Ranger is a mid-range fighter and will get personal with enemies from time to time. Ranger also has a vulnerable moments such as launcher use and dodge recovery frames. If you're not careful, getting R-Def for stronger units on RA might be a good idea.

Dodging all the time also lessens the amount of DPS you could perform. Let's look at this realistically here now. If you were completely devoted into DPS, and you would have to dodge every single hit in order to stay alive, you'd be

1. Stress yourself out from having to pay attention to every move your enemy makes, lol.

2. You would have to sacrifice time trying to dodge a move, instead of just tanking it and striking back with a powerful attack. Some enemy attacks have stun, or knockback, which obviously in this case the best way to maximize your dps is to evade.

[Zipzo]

Dodging all the time also lessens the amount of DPS you could perform. Let's look at this realistically here now. If you were completely devoted into DPS, and you would have to dodge every single hit in order to stay alive, you'd be

1. Stress yourself out from having to pay attention to every move your enemy makes, lol.

2. You would have to sacrifice time trying to dodge a move, instead of just tanking it and striking back with a powerful attack. Some enemy attacks have stun, or knockback, which obviously in this case the best way to maximize your dps is to evade.
That begs the question though, is a reasonable amount of defense (let's assume nobody is making a 200 defense mag) on a mag going to really do any good in the grand scheme of damage flowing in?

Even with defense on your mag, you're still going to try to avoid as much as you can. This isn't similar to other games where you can stack a resistance so high, or your stamina/hp to where healers can heal you through a mechanic allowing you to just be stationary (like a lot of fights in WoW, for example). Bosses move just as much as players do in PSO2.

[RocSage]

That's not quite true Zipzo. The optimal build was to fill in the non-max stats if for some reason you could max them. By lvl 200 you could max every stat, so the MAG became just a temporary "get me this item quicker" thing where as MAGs are more permanent now and take a lot more time and money to raise.


I think the people who are saying "dodge" every are really fucking over the game mechanics and how the game was designed to be played a bit as it seems obvious to me that the MOBs move around a lot and it's hard to hit them. They however also have aggro and tend to stand still a lot more when they are not having people run around them, plus when the person with the agro moves the MOB moves thus the targets move thus making it harder and more dangerous for the other people.

I have a feeling that eventually the Bosses are going to get to the point where if you don't have a tank you are going to look like an absolute fool trying to kill these things at the proper levels. As it is it looks like what you're supposed to do with Banshee/Bantha is Tank the one that comes down 1st till it's near dead then have that Meleer finish it off while the tank move on to the stronger one. That's how I would handle it with a team and with how much it moves that is likely the key to getting it to stop moving all over the place like it does. And I imagine that there will be more Bosses that press that harder and harder.

[Mikura]

Dodging all the time also lessens the amount of DPS you could perform. Let's look at this realistically here now. If you were completely devoted into DPS, and you would have to dodge every single hit in order to stay alive, you'd be

1. Stress yourself out from having to pay attention to every move your enemy makes, lol.

2. You would have to sacrifice time trying to dodge a move, instead of just tanking it and striking back with a powerful attack. Some enemy attacks have stun, or knockback, which obviously in this case the best way to maximize your dps is to evade.

Glad I'm not the only one that sees it that way. Despite what most people seem to think in this game, I think defense has just as much merit in this game as attack. It's hard to do damage when half your time is spent just simply trying to stay alive since you can't take no more than a few hits without having to pop a drink. Even worse when you full time Fury Stance, which I know a majority of hunters do.

[Zyrusticae]

FYI, some Forces (like myself) prefer rods and do get hit sometimes because of it.

Rangers, on the other hand... probably don't have an excuse.

[Dinosaur]

Dodging all the time also lessens the amount of DPS you could perform. Let's look at this realistically here now. If you were completely devoted into DPS, and you would have to dodge every single hit in order to stay alive, you'd be

1. Stress yourself out from having to pay attention to every move your enemy makes, lol.

2. You would have to sacrifice time trying to dodge a move, instead of just tanking it and striking back with a powerful attack. Some enemy attacks have stun, or knockback, which obviously in this case the best way to maximize your dps is to evade.

I don't see a problem with #1. You should always be doing that. For #2 and the whole "taking time to dodge" thing, just parry it instead. You get a JA immediately after a JG. It's also worth mentioning that Hunter gets the privilege of being able to attack during dodge compared to other classes "taking time to dodge."

[ShilohSham]

Really I find it funny, people that reply things like

"lol just don't get hit defense doesn't matter'

Or

"Lol learn to dodge"

while I agree dodging is the best case for most attacks, human error happens beside there attack that are bound to be undodgeable.

as for the topic at hand would I use 6.29 on 500 ark cash just to get a mag and give it pure defense stats? no

At max I'd put maybe 20 levels of a mag in defense stats

to me it worth 20 levels in my mag vs 10-20 SP in my skill tree

I mean theorycrafting great and all but it just that theory

[Zipzo]

That's not quite true Zipzo. The optimal build was to fill in the non-max stats if for some reason you could max them. By lvl 200 you could max every stat, so the MAG became just a temporary "get me this item quicker" thing where as MAGs are more permanent now and take a lot more time and money to raise.Wrong. Apparently you're forgetting materials as well but...

The mag was every bit a cohesive part of the bridge to max stats. Also, at lower levels, a lvl200 mag was absolute carry. Don't know if you've ever tried a twink in that game.

You could max the stats of every single class in the game with a 5/145/50/0 mag except the HUnewearl, but her stats were not across the board maxable no matter what you did. It was just an element of her base stat hand out.

You needed the mag to have max stats.

I distinctly remember doing all this math in order to max my own stats, I can't really forget it (I ignored my professor at the time as he talked about equations to figure out how to max out my PSO char, what about it).

[AlMcFly]

I personally put defense points into all of my mags. People don't seem to understand the concept that just because something isn't incredibly useful now, doesn't mean it will never be useful. It means I will be equipping high-level defense units, when you would have to wait months for a level-cap raise to equip. I get the benefit of higher defense stat on mag plus the higher stat on the three units combined.

Besides the attack differences are negligible. Using those points for attack rather than defense is the difference between killing a mob in 2 seconds vs. 3 or 4 seconds? Whoopty-friggity-doo.

[RocSage]

Wrong. Apparently you're forgetting materials as well but...

The mag was every bit a cohesive part of the bridge to max stats. Also, at lower levels, a lvl200 mag was absolute carry. Don't know if you've ever tried a twink in that game.

You could max the stats of every single class in the game with a 5/145/50/0 mag except the HUnewearl, but her stats were not across the board maxable no matter what you did. It was just an element of her base stat hand out.

You needed the mag to have max stats.

I distinctly remember doing all this math in order to max my own stats, I can't really forget it (I ignored my professor at the time as he talked about equations to figure out how to max out my PSO char, what about it).

lol.
I maxed my stats long long long before 200, never got there and that's part of the reason why. No point.
I'm not forgetting anything. I'm pointing out that the reason the mag was used the way it was was not because of the stats, because the stats became absurd and max stats were possible at low levels. Further you could trade mags to twink a character rather than building a mag with that character. So at high level MAG stats weren't important and at low level the MAG stats were used to twink to have absurdly powerful items, both of which is not the case here in PSO2.

[Zipzo]

lol.
I maxed my stats long long long before 200, never got there and that's part of the reason why. No point.
I'm not forgetting anything. I'm pointing out that the reason the mag was used the way it was was not because of the stats, because the stats became absurd and max stats were possible at low levels. Further you could trade mags to twink a character rather than building a mag with that character. So at high level MAG stats weren't important and at low level the MAG stats were used to twink to have absurdly powerful items, both of which is not the case here in PSO2.What class did you play?

[Razeiq]

I can't help but ask this. When you all are putting Def on mags, are you putting points into all types of defense, or just specific ones? I don't have a max level character, so I am not sure of all this stuff yet. Thanks for any info tossed my way.

[RocSage]

What class did you play?

I've played all the classes to at least 120, the highest I got was I think ~160 or ~180 with HUcast. And I was maxed well before that without a mag. That's why I stopped playing PSO. I collected every item in the game (yes everything, the data probably still exists in my torn up Xbox) either through trading or finding it. And I reached a point where there was no longer any point in advancing. I beat all the quests, the entire game, got every item, and was able to equip all everything and had max stats. Reaching level 200 was just a pointless grind so i didn't do it. I, as literally as possible, beat PSOep1&2, as thoroughly as one could. PSOBB I collected most everything i cared to and beat all the story stuff so once that was done, again, no point to continue.


But the point you are trying to make is that ATP > DFP because if you knew what you were doing you didn't need it. And that is somewhat true, but it is also a completely different beast. PSO monsters and PSO2 are similar enough that you can say that more or less you don't need DEF save for when you get blindsided...which goes to why you should have DEF, for those occasions, alone, but anyways... the more important and much harder comparison is the bosses. PSO bosses had large tells and more or less followed a simple pattern with huge gaps that really didn't get effected by what you wee doing. PSO2 bosses have simple attacks, with not as easily seen tells, and gaps that aren't really all that big and reacting to get in them could set you up for falling into the next attack and they react to what you are doing a lot more than PSO bosses. So yeah... the comparison breaks down and what you learned in that game doesn't translate well.

[Stegodon]

Ya I'd have to agree with most of everyone on this post. I made a Leo Mag 55 Striking 40 ability 55 Strike Defence and I wasn't paying to much attention because i was leveling it on the side with 3 other mags, And after reaching 150 I can only use the lowest tier 8 Star armors, I wanted to use whatever the Golden looking set is?? dont have a screen or name. but its like 435 requirement or some crap. So i would have had to invest around 75+ into the defence stat to even wear it, By that time the damage id missing out on up and all negates the point of even wearing the armor. I agree, Id rather hone my dodging skills to perfection rather then waste my time and ALOT of money investing into another defensive mag, However having different "Shinier" Armor does set you apart and look cool. I'll stick to raw damage and wait till level 50 when I can easily just equip the armor with almost no added mag stats.

[NuhSieh]

I put S-Defense on my mag and SP on the S-Defense in the Hunter skill tree... just because I wanted to equip some units.

If you are patient enough to wait for the level cap to equip some "new" units, then put points on whatever you want.
If you're not so patient like me, go for Def.
And I'm pretty sure you can't even equip some S-Def units as a Hunter even by being lvl 50 without putting anything in Sdef on your mag or your skill tree.
Well, depends on your race/gender I suppose.

[Dammy]

the thing is - when they raise level cap they will add NEW units with even MORE requirements.. :(
so im not sure if "wait and equip them later" strategy will work

[Arika]

They will alway releases item for standard stat and item for high requirement together. Item with higher requirement usually a bit stronger than the item with less requirement that come together, but it won't be better than item that will release in later patch even thought requirement may be less.


Basically sega is giving ppl with higher than standard stat little boost gear every patch


On topic, it is debatable which is better, so just go what ppl prefer. Most of the time bosses are all easy anyway. It is only little serious when you plan to TA competition in leader board.

[Angelo]

I can't help but ask this. When you all are putting Def on mags, are you putting points into all types of defense, or just specific ones? I don't have a max level character, so I am not sure of all this stuff yet. Thanks for any info tossed my way.

Basically I use it to even out and 'patch up' the natural flaws of my race/gender/class combo.

HUmars have naturally high Striking Defense, on par with HUcasts.
They have decent, but not great Tech Defense, and fairly lackluster Ranged Defense.

So if, say, my MAG is level 100 it looks something like this:

S-DEF: 20
R-DEF: 45
T-DEF: 35

[Saffran]

The thing is, PSO (first introduction to mags) had different mechanics.
Back then, 1 point of def was 1 point on your base def, while 1 point of ATK was 2 points base on your character. Likewise for mind. Plus you could raise ATA (2 pts on the mag was 1 on your character) which was, after the DC version, *only possible* through either mag or really rare units.
Furthermore, the game had a stat called "evasion". You could avoid hits simply by having high enough EVA stats, and I sure used that with my Hucaseal. But even THAT had a higher point where it was just "useless" (Ult towers and seabed...).
We knew how defense worked in PSO. It was a combination of atk reduction (5 EVA for 1 ennemy ATA + 1 DEF for ? Ennemy ATK).

My point is, we still don't know the formula on PSO2.
Nowadays, each of our three defense units (and possibly equipment in the future!) can have up to 12 enhancements. (4 natives and 8 slots) Heck, even weapons can have 9 enhancements (up to 8 in defense if you want it to)!
That is a unholy load of defense possibilities, and you know what? I have a hunch that we *need* them. Maybe it's the fact that a lv21 baboon can kill a lv20 hu in 3 hits. But i feel that defense works in a very different way than it did on the "older" PSO.

Right now I haven't thought much about the damage formula, but ATK is clearly disadvatanged in regards to defense. In PSO1, you'd max out defense fairly easily, just from leveling and one or two units (which you'd need on your character anyway). We don't know how it's going to be near endgame.
As far as I am concerned, the lv100 charts that were datamined are completely obsolete - lv 40 characters are almost there already.

So for the time being, and since I don't know how much of a gap my max lvl stats will have with my max race/gender gap, I'll put my money in the bank - level atk and def equally until we know for sure and then my last 300 AC will finally find some use. ;)

[iwerkout]

I do fine just by dodging correctly.

If you can be patient, even the most aggressive monsters (Infected Wolf Bosses anyone?) expose themselves after certain attacks, and those are the moments you need to take to do damage. Yeah you can't just stand still and attack them, expecting to take hits and survive, but that's what makes it a challenge.
I don't think PSO2 should just be a cake-walk of a game. You should be expected to either try to better yourself as a player or sacrifice better stats for your want of survivability.

[RocSage]

You should be expected to either try to better yourself as a player or sacrifice better stats for your want of survivability.

The thing is, you make it sound like "dodging" is what a good player does, when in reality that causes all sorts of problems the could very well be solved by actually tanking.

[Macman]

What RocSage said.
For example: if you're bobbing and weaving all over the place, it's going to cause the snow panther bosses to just fly all over the field, making it harder for your teammates to keep track of what's going on, and ultimately suffering their damage rates.
With a tanking strategy you can stay reasonably close and guard attacks for negligible damage, giving your team a much easier time wailing on the boss as it's busy trying to execute close-range attacks on you.

[Omega-z]

I agree, it's way to soon to tell for sure. But the AI of the enemies are just at the tip of the ice berg. The panther are just start of a little bit of a heavier fighting system compared to the monkey's, Which there still slow. But the AI will catch up and will be faster, so dodge yes, but to wait for the attack to happen no. Since you have to dodge all the time then and have a 3 sec window to land attack and dodge again or else you get 1 hit K.o'd even if you did 50k. The game is slowly scaling which mean's is the game going to end at 200? or is there going to be a huge spike in AI performance?.

ATK even tho is great it's not as important as it used to be. As long as you are scaling with the Foe's with your damage then you don't need to worry as much unless you have a spike then just adjust for it, ATK<----->DEF it's a two way street.

[Zipzo]

What RocSage said.
For example: if you're bobbing and weaving all over the place, it's going to cause the snow panther bosses to just fly all over the field, making it harder for your teammates to keep track of what's going on, and ultimately suffering their damage rates.
With a tanking strategy you can stay reasonably close and guard attacks for negligible damage, giving your team a much easier time wailing on the boss as it's busy trying to execute close-range attacks on you.
I'm going to call BS on this.

In TERA there is a Warrior class. That class is aimed at being a "dodge tank". You wear leather but have great mobility, thus you 'tank' by keeping aggro, but at the same time avoiding attacks. It's a higher skill cap than playing a lancer (Sword and board tank) because it requires much more attention to detail, but it's really the same concept. You should not be face tanking expecting to get healed in this sort of game. There is really no logic that allows you to garner that mindset.

If the boss moving around is your argument, keeping the boss somewhat stationary as you dodge attacks is not difficult either. It's the core of the Warrior class in TERA and is essentially the role here for Hunters as well.

[GoldenFalcon]

Or do Just Guard

[Zyrusticae]

I'm going to call BS on this.

In TERA there is a Warrior class. That class is aimed at being a "dodge tank". You wear leather but have great mobility, thus you 'tank' by keeping aggro, but at the same time avoiding attacks. It's a higher skill cap than playing a lancer (Sword and board tank) because it requires much more attention to detail, but it's really the same concept. You should not be face tanking expecting to get healed in this sort of game. There is really no logic that allows you to garner that mindset.

If the boss moving around is your argument, keeping the boss somewhat stationary as you dodge attacks is not difficult either. It's the core of the Warrior class in TERA and is essentially the role here for Hunters as well.
Apples vs. Oranges in this case. Mobs in Tera are very typical MMO-types that don't have a whole lot of movement abilities - for the most part, their only movement-heavy attacks are heavily telegraphed and aren't actually all that fast. (Before you ask, yes, I played the game all the way to the cap and played every instance). They even have visual icons to let you know when you're being targeted at random by an attack that's going to cross the field - you don't get such a benefit in PSO2.

Also noteworthy is that while every class has an evasion ability in Tera, they all have cooldowns, so you can't just spam them like you can in PSO2.

Even more noteworthy is the fact that, frankly, most of the player base hates warrior tanking, whether it is because they have bad experiences with them (they're the most popular class, so naturally there are a LOT of bad players using it) or because they just don't appreciate the idea of a "dodge-tank", or even because there are certain enemies that warriors have a really hard time defending against (the lancer guy in Fane of Kaprina comes to mind here).


Anyway, knowing that nobody is completely infallible and is capable of dodging every single attack thrown at them at every given moment, and knowing just how tiny the impact of each individual point of attack power is, I think it's fair to say that a small investment in defense is a worthy goal. Especially when it crosses that threshold to where you're taking single-digit (or near-single-digit) damage from enemies.

[Cyclon]

Or do Just Guard
Just guard is definitely a defensive skill though. People who go all the way into offense won't get it.

[GoldenFalcon]

Just guard is definitely a defensive skill though. People who go all the way into offense won't get it.

Actually, Just Guard is a lot more offensive than spamming dodge. Absolutely no contest

[Angelo]

Or do Just Guard

Just Guard still isn't a complete solution. It's incredibly helpful, and I love the skill to death ( In fact I wish there were a way to throw more SP into it so that counter could do more damage, or even stun.), but there are still some attacks that cannot be Just Guarded entirely.

Off the top of my head I can think of two:

When the Zaudan attacks with it's boulder, if you JG the first hit, the reaction frames make it so you cannot set up your guard again to 'clank' a second time.

Another is the Catadran; when it does it's 'three-strike-slinky-head' attack (couldn't think of a better name) there isn't enough time to recover and reset your JG, so you just have to hold block and endure the next two strikes. Especially if you've cast Warcry on him and he's hunting YOU out, he's going to point his big dumb head right at you and get his slinky on.

Basically I'm just trying to say that defense is important. I enjoy playing a HU that excels in DEF, I know it's not for everyone but I'm glad PSO2 gives us the option. I enjoy playing a supportive role to the team that doesn't involve buffing and healing. There's just kind of this mentality that because PSO2 is so skill based that people get this attitude of "LOL im so uber that I NEVER get hit! defense is for babies!", it's absurd, especially for a HU.

[Cyclon]

Actually, Just Guard is a lot more offensive than spamming dodge. Absolutely no contest
That's for sure, but there's no need to spam if you're precise.

In any case, that wasn't my point; as JG requires you to put three points in the defense up talent, people going for full offense will probably not get it.

[Zipzo]

Apples vs. Oranges in this case. Mobs in Tera are very typical MMO-types that don't have a whole lot of movement abilities - for the most part, their only movement-heavy attacks are heavily telegraphed and aren't actually all that fast. (Before you ask, yes, I played the game all the way to the cap and played every instance). They even have visual icons to let you know when you're being targeted at random by an attack that's going to cross the field - you don't get such a benefit in PSO2.

Also noteworthy is that while every class has an evasion ability in Tera, they all have cooldowns, so you can't just spam them like you can in PSO2.

Even more noteworthy is the fact that, frankly, most of the player base hates warrior tanking, whether it is because they have bad experiences with them (they're the most popular class, so naturally there are a LOT of bad players using it) or because they just don't appreciate the idea of a "dodge-tank", or even because there are certain enemies that warriors have a really hard time defending against (the lancer guy in Fane of Kaprina comes to mind here).


Anyway, knowing that nobody is completely infallible and is capable of dodging every single attack thrown at them at every given moment, and knowing just how tiny the impact of each individual point of attack power is, I think it's fair to say that a small investment in defense is a worthy goal. Especially when it crosses that threshold to where you're taking single-digit (or near-single-digit) damage from enemies.
Blatantly false.

Plenty of bosses are mobile as all hell in TERA. Basilisk. Crab. Kaprima. Monkey. Red, Green, and Blue Kuma. Auracadis. Lancer isn't mobile but he makes up for that in other mechanics of the fight (pillars and fireballs). All of these bosses are atrociously prone to moving without your control, and give you very little time to react to their core abilities that will just kill you in 1-2 hits if you are not well geared. I don't want hear at all about your "typical MMO mob" stuff unless you've actually beaten Nightmare Auracadis.

Before they nerfed Nightmare Kaprima, if you got hit by the whirlwind as a Slayer or a Warrior? Dead. He's also almost 3x as fast as his normal counter-part, and even in the normal it's hard to gauge his queues on all of his whirlwind chains when you're a newer player.

Have you even seen the Nightmare Kelsaik fight? I'm sorry, I just don't buy it, pal.

Your experience is akin to playing on the "easy" difficulty setting of a game.

[RocSage]

If I were going to build a completely Defensive Hunter I'd go for something like this...

Units: Snow Soul / Mutation 2 / Stamina V / Ability V / Stamina Boost / Body V / React V / Mind V
Weapon : Power V / Power Boost / Gwana Soul / Vol Soul / Mutation I / Ability V / Body V / Stamina V

190 HP / 30 PP / 25 S-ATK / 25 R-ATK / 25 T-ATK / 25 ABL / 65 S-DEF / 65 R-DEF / 65 T-DEF
190 HP / 30 PP / 25 S-ATK / 25 R-ATK / 25 T-ATK / 25 ABL / 65 S-DEF / 65 R-DEF / 65 T-DEF
190 HP / 30 PP / 25 S-ATK / 25 R-ATK / 25 T-ATK / 25 ABL / 65 S-DEF / 65 R-DEF / 65 T-DEF
125 HP / 27 PP / 160 S-ATK / 35 R-ATK / 35 T-ATK / 25 ABL / 65 S-DEF / 25 R-DEF / 25 T-DEF

Total: 695 HP / 117 PP / 235 S-ATK / 110 R-ATK / 110 T-ATK / 100 ABL / 260 S-DEF / 220 R-DEF / 220 T-DEF
MAG: 0 HP / 0 PP / 0 S-ATL / 0 R-ATK / 0 T-ATK / 0 ABL / 50 S-DEF / 50 R-DEF / 50 T-DEF

Skills:
Lv 10 - HP Up 1: 50 HP
Lv 10 - S-DEF Up 1: 50 S-DEF
Lv 10 - Guard Stance 1: 200 S-DEF / -100 S-ATK / -100 R-ATK
Lv 08 - War Cry:
Just Counter
Just Reversal


Without consider the actual equipment in those slots, which I would assume would be about the best Strike Armor and probably Vol Scale for the weapon at best, you'd have...
~1100 HP, +500 S-DEF, +270 R-DEF +270 T-DEF

The units would give at least 130ish S-DEF I don't know what the higher units are but I think I've seen one with like 150S-DEF.

That I think would be pretty good Damage mitigation.

[Zyrusticae]

Blatantly false.

Plenty of bosses are mobile as all hell in TERA. Basilisk. Crab. Kaprima. Monkey. Red, Green, and Blue Kuma. Auracadis. Lancer isn't mobile but he makes up for that in other mechanics of the fight (pillars and fireballs). All of these bosses are atrociously prone to moving without your control, and give you very little time to react to their core abilities that will just kill you in 1-2 hits if you are not well geared. I don't want hear at all about your "typical MMO mob" stuff unless you've actually beaten Nightmare Auracadis.

Before they nerfed Nightmare Kaprima, if you got hit by the whirlwind as a Slayer or a Warrior? Dead. He's also almost 3x as fast as his normal counter-part, and even in the normal it's hard to gauge his queues on all of his whirlwind chains when you're a newer player.

Have you even seen the Nightmare Kelsaik fight? I'm sorry, I just don't buy it, pal.

Your experience is akin to playing on the "easy" difficulty setting of a game.

Yeah, no, I just don't agree. All of Tera's bosses so far have been rather slow and easy to dodge unless you're just not paying attention. Most of its difficulty comes from mechanics other than having to dodge attacks, like the cannon and mirror at the end of Balder's Temple or the insta-kill mechanics (cheap and lazy design there, btw).

Also, lol @ using basilisks as an example. Seriously? The only attack they have that's not heavily telegraphed is... ... ...

...Nope, can't think of one. :-?

Also, using nightmare bosses is kind of a cop-out considering we don't yet have Ultimate Mode in PSO2 (the closest equivalent this game is going to have to Tera's hard mode).

[Zipzo]

Yeah, no, I just don't agree. All of Tera's bosses so far have been rather slow and easy to dodge unless you're just not paying attention. Most of its difficulty comes from mechanics other than having to dodge attacks, like the cannon and mirror at the end of Balder's Temple or the insta-kill mechanics (cheap and lazy design there, btw).

Also, lol @ using basilisks as an example. Seriously? The only attack they have that's not heavily telegraphed is... ... ...

...Nope, can't think of one. :-?You haven't done hard mode, so your opinion is pretty much invalid.

Every single boss gets a speed multiplier on nightmare. Yes, in easy mode it's easier to catch attack queues. That's because it's supposed to be easy, ya nincompoop.

If you do not utilize your dodges properly on Nightmare Auracadis, you will die. It has little to do with the fact that the mechanics are unforgiving, you are capable of dodging out of everything, but it is incredibly difficult at the speed Nightmare bosses put out abilities.

[Zyrusticae]

That's great and all, but I somehow fail to see how that suddenly validates warrior tanking when it's pretty much universally maligned at this point.

And again, Tera Hard Mode is closer to PSO2's Ultimate Mode in equivalency, which we don't yet have, obviously.

[Randomness]

What RocSage said.
For example: if you're bobbing and weaving all over the place, it's going to cause the snow panther bosses to just fly all over the field, making it harder for your teammates to keep track of what's going on, and ultimately suffering their damage rates.
With a tanking strategy you can stay reasonably close and guard attacks for negligible damage, giving your team a much easier time wailing on the boss as it's busy trying to execute close-range attacks on you.

You just reminded what I hate about people who don't dodge carefully in Tri. Barioth loves to jump clear across the map to catch people, and if your party members can't dodge decently, and just run clear... he ends up bouncing all over and making it near impossible to get good output on him.



Actually, Just Guard is a lot more offensive than spamming dodge. Absolutely no contest

I think it is a contest if someone has Step Attack and can time dodges well, since then evasion barely interrupts your attacking. But then, the same is true of JG>JC.

[Zipzo]

That's great and all, but I somehow fail to see how that suddenly validates warrior tanking when it's pretty much universally maligned at this point.

And again, Tera Hard Mode is closer to PSO2's Ultimate Mode in equivalency, which we don't yet have, obviously.
It's not a dead art, considering they buffed its passive performance by massive levels in random dungeons.

I knew plenty of Warriors that tanked before that patch too, the patch just made it easier for all the baddies.

[Zyrusticae]

You know, this just reminded me of something. Is it really fair to invalidate someone's opinion of a game just because they never reached the very top-end levels of it, when it takes, at a minimum, about a hundred hours of play to get there? Is it fair to say "oh, don't worry, it gets better" when it takes THAT LONG to reach that point?

I mention this because Tera in particular is fairly infamous for being completely unengaging before you hit level 20, and even then, like I said, it's rather slow relative to most peoples' expectations of "action combat". And then the speed doesn't even pick up until you hit HM dungeons, which don't start until the 40s (and good luck getting a group for those!)?

No, sorry, I don't think that's fair. I put in my time and I lost interest well before I was geared enough to find groups for HM dungeons, so I'm going to use that experience as an anchor point. Don't like it? That's too bad, because it's completely unrealistic to expect anyone to reach that point if they just can't maintain interest that long.

Anyway, more to the point of this thread, I remain convinced that defense is worth putting points into if only for the fact that equivalent points in attack barely do anything at all (that, and it's fairly trivial to get +40 or even +50 attack power on all three units), the fact that nobody is infallible and WILL get hit eventually, and the fact that there are a number of instances in the game where you will get killed without warning if you can't take a hit.

[Zipzo]

You know, this just reminded me of something. Is it really fair to invalidate someone's opinion of a game just because they never reached the very top-end levels of it, when it takes, at a minimum, about a hundred hours of play to get there? Is it fair to say "oh, don't worry, it gets better" when it takes THAT LONG to reach that point?

I mention this because Tera in particular is fairly infamous for being completely unengaging before you hit level 20, and even then, like I said, it's rather slow relative to most peoples' expectations of "action combat". And then the speed doesn't even pick up until you hit HM dungeons, which don't start until the 40s (and good luck getting a group for those!)?

No, sorry, I don't think that's fair. I put in my time and I lost interest well before I was geared enough to find groups for HM dungeons, so I'm going to use that experience as an anchor point. Don't like it? That's too bad, because it's completely unrealistic to expect anyone to reach that point if they just can't maintain interest that long.

Anyway, more to the point of this thread, I remain convinced that defense is worth putting points into if only for the fact that equivalent points in attack barely do anything at all (that, and it's fairly trivial to get +40 or even +50 attack power on all three units), the fact that nobody is infallible and WILL get hit eventually, and the fact that there are a number of instances in the game where you will get killed without warning if you can't take a hit.It's not about the game getting better. It's that it gets harder.

Clearly I agree with you in some respects because I am no longer playing. However, I got to experience what was difficult content in that game with a guild of very skilled players. Was it boring in the long run, having to do this stuff ad nauseum while dealing with the horrible enchanting system and gold grind? Yes. It was. So in the end, the game was not enjoyable for the long term, but there are some difficult as hell fights that you chose not to experience, and then decided to throw a fast one at TERA's difficulty.

So yes, it does invalidate your opinion on TERA's difficulty level. Not the enjoyability of the game, you have ever right to have your own opinion there. As I said, I'd have to agree, seeing as how I stopped playing.

I will agree, the leveling is slightly painful, but it's not that bad. I had two 60's in my first month of game play. The issue is the questing system is repetitive, but at least they gave you quests to do, unlike other Korean games I know at launch (*COUGHAION).

[Zyrusticae]

It's not about the game getting better. It's that it gets harder.
[spoiler-box]
Clearly I agree with you in some respects because I am no longer playing. However, I got to experience what was difficult content in that game with a guild of very skilled players. Was it boring in the long run, having to do this stuff ad nauseum while dealing with the horrible enchanting system and gold grind? Yes. It was. So in the end, the game was not enjoyable for the long term, but there are some difficult as hell fights that you chose not to experience, and then decided to throw a fast one at TERA's difficulty.

So yes, it does invalidate your opinion on TERA's difficulty level. Not the enjoyability of the game, you have ever right to have your own opinion there. As I said, I'd have to agree, seeing as how I stopped playing.

I will agree, the leveling is slightly painful, but it's not that bad. I had two 60's in my first month of game play. The issue is the questing system is repetitive, but at least they gave you quests to do, unlike other Korean games I know at launch (*COUGHAION).[/spoiler-box]
Fair enough, I guess. I still think it's kind of silly to compare it to PSO2 considering how different the two games are (and given that PSO2 doesn't have Ultimate Mode yet), but I concede that I don't really know how the game works at HM.

[Zipzo]

Fair enough, I guess. I still think it's kind of silly to compare it to PSO2 considering how different the two games are (and given that PSO2 doesn't have Ultimate Mode yet), but I concede that I don't really know how the game works at HM.Fair enough in return...if there is a pending ultimate mode, the comparison is pretty moot until we understand the qualities of such a difficulty in PSO2.

Sheesh, winning that argument wasn't nearly as rewarding as I thought it would be, I guess I wasn't ready for you to concede. PSOW regularity determines that would you come back at me with something else...it's like I don't even know what to do with myself...

Is it possible to be a troll and not even know it? ._.

[GoldenFalcon]

The ego in that post is astonishing

[jOhMG]

I like how this became all about TERA for an entire page. Last time I looked this was a Japanese game and not a Korean one.

And eh, as the game is right now, I see no major point in tossing into Mag defense, but I guess it's all preference. I rarely find myself low on health in the current game. In the future, if I determine I need it then I'll incorporate it. Why plan for the future when it's not here yet.

[satchko]

So heres the build Im gonna go for:
http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/ranger.html?01RA!IOI2dBwhGK8
And, on my mag, I've been stacking only R-Atk. With this build, I'll have only the 360 base R-Def (RAcast) at level 40. So, I've started leveling R-Def, I figure I can go 103atk and 47def on the mag and thatll give me exactly 407 R-def needed for the vol dragon armor. I'm wondering if all that def on my mag is worth it, or just screw the vol dragon armor and go for another armor set, like maybe the 374? R-def required one. Thatll mean I'll only have to level my mag's R-Def to 14. Basically, im stuck on which armor set to go for, and therefore how much R-def ill need on my mag. Any input anyone?

[Macman]

I picked the Vol Dragon armor just for the style. It's gonna take one hell of a statboost to get me to switch to a new set.

[Gama]

no defense was given to my mag, ability tech.

[Miyoko]

The ego in that post is astonishing

GF, you seem to have gotten rather ballsy since I last talked to you. I like it.

[GoldenFalcon]

GF, you seem to have gotten rather ballsy since I last talked to you. I like it.

lol hi Miyo
I would believe you're still more ballsy than me though

On-topic

just screw the vol dragon armor and go for another armor set, like maybe the 374? R-def required one.
^

[Zipzo]

I like how this became all about TERA for an entire page. Last time I looked this was a Japanese game and not a Korean one.
And that is relevant exactly...how?

[Xaeris]

The ego in that post is astonishing

I nearly choked on it.

[Geistritter]

I've said it a billion times, but I'll say it again now: defense on your mag is a waste.

If you're that worried, just grind your units and/or add HP to them. There are even some souls that giving slashing defense, so either or all of those factors should be more than enough to compensate for any worries, while your mag, something much more bothersome to replace, will be permanently hampered elsewise.

[Xaeris]

Even if we accept this notion that it's reasonable to completely abandon defense because you can dodge everything (I'm reminded of LoL players who give strategy advice under the assumption you should be landing 100% of your skill shots and dodging 100% of the ones coming at you) there's still a very simple reason you should invest in some defense, be it through a mag or your skill tree: to equip better units.

But why do you want to equip better units if defense is worthless? Because better units are all you're going to find in higher level content. But again, if defense is worthless, why should you care? Because, as many units as you're going to find, some of them are going to have excellent affixes with offensive applications. You're going to feel silly if you find a unit with Mutation, a good Soul and Power/Shooting/Technique II that you can't equip because you decided you wanted another 20 ATK on your mag. Now imagine that feeling times 3.

[Garnet_Moon]

More defense means you can show off your wicked cool and rare swag you just got from your one hundred and first run of X mission. Everybody else has to wait for like 50 levels to use that item. By then you have even better swag to wear and flaunt.

You don't even need to speak when you walk in. Your wild plume of feathers will attract all the ladies and the friendly men to your location. Truly the alpha you are meant to be.

Or, y'know, you could look like one of us beta losers wearing the same level 1 units we've had for 40 levels. lol

[Coatl]

Even if we accept this notion that it's reasonable to completely abandon defense because you can dodge everything (I'm reminded of LoL players who give strategy advice under the assumption you should be landing 100% of your skill shots and dodging 100% of the ones coming at you) there's still a very simple reason you should invest in some defense, be it through a mag or your skill tree: to equip better units.

But why do you want to equip better units if defense is worthless? Because better units are all you're going to find in higher level content. But again, if defense is worthless, why should you care? Because, as many units as you're going to find, some of them are going to have excellent affixes with offensive applications. You're going to feel silly if you find a unit with Mutation, a good Soul and Power/Shooting/Technique II that you can't equip because you decided you wanted another 20 ATK on your mag. Now imagine that feeling times 3.

Well...to be fair, you could always transfer those affixes to the weakest units available in-game. Any unit can have any affix, and you don't need to invest in defense in order to have good affixes.

[Xaeris]

If you're that confident in your luck, I would think Russian Roulette is a hobby more your speed. Besides, Souls can't be transferred, if I remember correctly. Edit: Nevermind, I guess that was just closed beta. Still, the point remains that between the ridiculous game of roulette that is affix transferring and 20-30 of X-Atrk, most people are gonna go with the latter.

[Coatl]

If you're that confident in your luck, I would think Russian Roulette is a hobby more your speed. Besides, Souls can't be transferred, if I remember correctly.

There wasn't any need for the passive aggressive comment. :)
Actually, souls can be transfered. You just need both fodders being used to have the same soul. Transfering is a 60% chance.

EDIT:
I see what you mean though. Investing in defense does make good gear with good affixes more readily available to you, but it IS possible to sacrifice this for the sake of more DPS.

[Xaeris]

It wasn't passive aggressive.

See my edit regarding the rest.

[Omisan]

If i just add r-def, will that only affect my ability to equip the armors with the gun symbol?
And if i only add r-def am i only boosting my def from ranged attacks.
And if dodging is so important, would it be worth investing in the invincibility frames of a rangers roll?

[Geistritter]

Even if we accept this notion that it's reasonable to completely abandon defense because you can dodge everything (I'm reminded of LoL players who give strategy advice under the assumption you should be landing 100% of your skill shots and dodging 100% of the ones coming at you) there's still a very simple reason you should invest in some defense, be it through a mag or your skill tree: to equip better units.

Defense isn't useful against all but the most difficult enemies, while more attack is useful against everything, and even then the difficult stuff, comparatively, can be soloed by any half decent player. I would know; I've soloed all the content in the game without much of a hassle, and I'm hardly a fantastic player. And no, I haven't spent a single point into mag defense. Hell, I haven't even bothered to grind my units all the way, because it's obnoxiously expensive, and I haven't died since... about level 35. The game just isn't hard enough to get as worked up as people do about defenses, and since - let's be honest - this game appeals to the lowest common denominator, it's going to continue to be easy to keep from frustrating players that aren't any good.


But why do you want to equip better units if defense is worthless? Because better units are all you're going to find in higher level content. But again, if defense is worthless, why should you care? Because, as many units as you're going to find, some of them are going to have excellent affixes with offensive applications. You're going to feel silly if you find a unit with Mutation, a good Soul and Power/Shooting/Technique II that you can't equip because you decided you wanted another 20 ATK on your mag. Now imagine that feeling times 3.

And this point has already been completely negated in that you can just transfer souls and make your own affixes. If you got a unit that good, you'd be much smarter to sell the silly thing; you'd even have more than enough to affix other things.

Still, who cares; play the game the way you want. Just remember it's not the only way.

[Xaeris]

Defense isn't useful against all but the most difficult enemies, while more attack is useful against everything, and even then the difficult stuff, comparatively, can be soloed by any half decent player. I would know; I've soloed all the content in the game without much of a hassle, and I'm hardly a fantastic player. And no, I haven't spent a single point into mag defense. Hell, I haven't even bothered to grind my units all the way, because it's obnoxiously expensive, and I haven't died since... about level 35. The game just isn't hard enough to get as worked up as people do about defenses, and since - let's be honest - this game appeals to the lowest common denominator, it's going to continue to be easy to keep from frustrating players that aren't any good.

The premise was already admitted. This was unnecessary.


And this point has already been completely negated in that you can just transfer souls and make your own affixes. If you got a unit that good, you'd be much smarter to sell the silly thing; you'd even have more than enough to affix other things.

Still, who cares; play the game the way you want. Just remember it's not the only way.

This is a curious post to me, because I was not proclaiming my way to be the only way. I was providing a reasoned consideration for investing in defense: a consideration which still stands. You could transfer multiple affixes to weaker units, finding the multiple copies necessary and spinning the roulette wheel with the transfer. But for what? The Defense investment it takes to equip a higher grade of units is rather marginal.

Let's do an example. Let's use a human male ranger. At level 40, he has a base R-DEF of 360. A investment of 31 R-DEF will give him access to three new kinds of units. In order to get to R-Atk I, he's probably going to invest 5 points into R-Def I anyway, so that really leaves 13 R-DEF to account for.

It would take another three points in R-DEF I to cover the difference, which are better spent in R-Atk I, so it's either the mag or nothing. Are you really saying you think 13 Atk is so valuable that you'd rather go through the trouble of transferring affixes instead of just making that investment in your mag? 13 Atk, all by itself, is kinda worthless; at level 40, that, quite literally, is not killing anything any faster.

[psu000]

I am not going comment much about dodging attack or DPS. That just personal playing style.

In terms of defense to MAG, my opinion is as long as you got enough requirement with your char race to equip what you need to equip for that type, I would shift all the level to all defense stats and skill.

If you think about it, all stat on a MAG is 1:1 as far as it stands. There are by far a gap between DEF stat to equip various different armour parts than to equip weapons.

To give you an example, I have done Hunter, Ranger and now to Force towards Lv 40 with my F Cast. So far, the only stats I need from my Mag is Skills to boost critial damage and the R-Def I used to equip the wings and tails (407 R-Def).

Even with a Cast being a Force, it's the same problem over again. Yes admittedly I need more F-Atk stat to equip higher * Rod/Card. But I can easily get enough (at this level cap) with skill tree. The lv40 stat on F-Atk between F Cast and the strrongest newman is only 50+ pts. To match up with the newman output damage in most cases, you can easily gain enough F-Atk from skill tree stats plus the bonus from your armour skills. But the trouble is as always, have enough to meet the requirement

so my opinion onto the MAG stat is (for this point with the level cap); Using it to increase any Atk stat is a bit pointless unless you actual need it plus on top of skill tree stats add on to equip your favourite weapon.

Otherwise go ahead with the Def stats so you can equip the armour that gives you back say +30 S-Atk, which equal to feeding the MAG 30 levels to do the same thing.

[GoldenFalcon]

Just gonna say, some units have pretty good bonuses to PP as well
Although you can just get Ability and equip Add Spirit epsilons, and not care about defense, but still

[RocSage]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but this type of thing should be addressed;


the difficult stuff, comparatively, can be soloed by any half decent player.

...

this game appeals to the lowest common denominator, it's going to continue to be easy to keep from frustrating players that aren't any good.


Dear Geistritter, stop being an asshole.
"Half decent player"
"lowest common denominator"
You are being a twit by saying these things.
Something that can be solo'd doesn't denote that it is easy to do or does it take into account several variables that can largely offset how hard it is.
"Lowest Common Denominator" is a term that implies low intellect, uncultured, uneducated. Both of which have nothing to do with skill or luck. It's well known that FPSs have this type of mentality running rampant in them and FPSs do take a bit of particular skills so you are just wrong in saying that this game appeals to lowest common denominator, especially with it's barrier to entry being that you have to figure out a foreign language to some degree and several other factors that don't really appeal to that crowd.

In the end your argument can be made without the insults, but I would expect better than repeating the same damn argument posed and countered from someone that is calling into question other peoples' skills, intellect, education, or culturalization.

[Cypher_9]

All I got to say is this,...

...

Who would be the last one standing... in the soon to be grueling MP-Bosses... D:

... and use that Moon... ^^

[GoldenFalcon]

All I got to say is this,...

...

Who would be the last one standing... in the soon to be grueling MP-Bosses... D:

... and use that Moon... ^^

Hunters with pure attack mags and fury stance

with just guard

[gigawuts]

Hunters with pure attack mags and fury stance

with just guard

+1

All this talk about defense and all I can think is, well, the same thing that keeps being posted.

just guard + dodge + attentiveness = defense

For any mistakes I might make, I have 700 hp tyvm.

(And 700 isn't even that much, I'm just using some bad +30 hp armors with souls)

[Saffran]

700 HP aren't going to bring you anywhere at higher difficulty levels. Heck, in PSOBB, even 2000+ HP were useless. Think ultimate ennemies with ohko attacks, the equivalent to the death scythe of the tower ennemies, or the fixed damage chop (well, that one WAS countered with higher HP so I guess it's a bad example).

Right now, I'm gearing my mag to be efficient in its regular attack and in its photon blast. I still am unsure of how much I want to invest in defense, but I know for sure that it will be a requisite at some point.
However, I still have 300 AC so I guess I can simply wait and see.

It still doesn't change anything to our quandary though. Different people will have different opinions, until all the content is out.

[GoldenFalcon]

700 HP aren't going to bring you anywhere at higher difficulty levels. Heck, in PSOBB, even 2000+ HP were useless.

The scale in PSO2 is not the same as the previous games. I'd be surprised if we ever get to 1000 hp

[gigawuts]

700 HP aren't going to bring you anywhere at higher difficulty levels. Heck, in PSOBB, even 2000+ HP were useless. Think ultimate ennemies with ohko attacks, the equivalent to the death scythe of the tower ennemies, or the fixed damage chop (well, that one WAS countered with higher HP so I guess it's a bad example).

Right now, I'm gearing my mag to be efficient in its regular attack and in its photon blast. I still am unsure of how much I want to invest in defense, but I know for sure that it will be a requisite at some point.
However, I still have 300 AC so I guess I can simply wait and see.

It still doesn't change anything to our quandary though. Different people will have different opinions, until all the content is out.

You're talking about PSOBB and comparing it to PSO2. Remind me when players were hitting for over 10,000 damage at level 40 in PSOBB, and also remind me when players had invulnerability frames during dodges or could just guard - even regular guard.

Oh, and, if you're going to compare so will I: Properly timed weapon swings caused enemies to stumble ever so slightly. You could keep enemies from attacking with proper weapon selection and combo timing. I'd do runs in ultimate caves with a sword and god/battle without once ever being hit.