Item Rod vs Card [Archive]

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 01:20 AM

So I wanted to start a brief or drawn out discussion as to my subjective opinion on the matter of Cards vs Rods.

They are the only two Force weapons available to use and cast TECHs effectively with. I've used both extensively at this point and have come to a clear and definitive conclusion that...

Rods are absolutely worthless.

Okay, with that being said, I'll explain why. The main fundamental difference between the two is that one is a melee weapon (rod), the other is a ranged weapon (card). In PSO2 the depletion of your resource gauge is imminent and quick, so it relies on you throwing in "basic" attacks at some point in order to replenish your resources so that you can be allowed to cast more. In order to do this with a Rod you must go in to melee range, and swing at the enemies. The card allows you to quickly and most importantly safely recover PP from a distance, the fire rate of the card is no slouch as it's really just as rapid as swinging the rod assuming you're spamming the basic attack. Alternatively while using a Rod, you can carry a Gunslash, swap to it and employ rifle fire with that, then swap back to the Rod, but this doesn't really speak well for the Rod on the grounds of this comparison.

What am I missing here?

Going in to melee range is all but absolutely pointless for the sake of being efficient as a Force on a majority of the difficult content (bosses). At most the most compelling argument that can be made is that using a Rod entails being near melee range, which allows you better access to your partners with a proximity support. The problem with this line of thinking is that the card is no slouch in this regard either.

The card essentially gives Forces what they have really lacked in every single other Phantasy Star MMO. Ranged support utility. Resta/Anti/Shifta/Deband are all valuable TECHs, arguably the staple of a skilled FO's repertoire, and using a card one can cast these at range given the know how. The mechanics of the card are simple to get used to at first but there is a deep complexity to being able to master the art of using the Card to its utmost potential. Not only with support spells, but you have a plethora of opportunities casting offensive spells as well. You are not simply limited by your own proximity range like you are using a rod. You can throw the card out, and pop the cast when it is closer to the enemies in question (Spells like Gizonde). You can even obliterate packs with RA spells without needing to get jammed up in to the middle. Forces have very low HP, and the less you are surrounding yourself with danger the safer you will be more often, and arguably, the more offensive you will be because you spend less time moving out of harms way.

Anyways...the verdict. Rods are absolutely pointless, they serve close to zero purpose in the face of their ranged counter-part, and their use potential is far and away exceeded by Cards in several non-trivial ways. I will continue using predominantly my card weapon, without a wonder in the world why anyone would choose to use a Rod...

However, I might ask. What is your weapon of choice? Do you agree with me? Do you use only rods and hate Cards for a reason that isn't that you just don't want to get used to the mechanics of the Card? Do you use both situation-ally? What are these situations you find the Rod more valuable? Vote in the poll and tell me what you think.

Arika

Jul 28, 2012, 01:21 AM

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 01:29 AM

Pro use Rod to cast tech (higher TP), then they regen PP with gunslash (quicker bullet, longer distant, move-able). that is all.
(in this sense, card become worthless instead)

but anyway, just play in the style you prefer. I mostly use card too, lazy to swap weapon when you just MPA.
I bolded questionable mentions. This thread isn't about "style", it's about optimal play.

Higher TP is a toss up. It really depends what item you have, and what grind it's at.

Longer distance is a farce. The card travels a much farther distance that you are able to actually hit your enemy with, and Forces lack the capability to actually hit enemies with bullets (especially moving ones) past a couple of yards reliably. I will give you that the bullet travel time exceeds the travel time of the card slightly, but this is really a negligible point to make as it rarely makes a difference on a large as hell boss monster. You can't really miss their 100 hit boxes.

Yes, you can also move while shooting bullets but I find this to also be a negligible factor in the Cards absolute dominance over Rods.

Zorafim

Jul 28, 2012, 01:33 AM

Ken_the_turtle

Jul 28, 2012, 01:33 AM

I don't like card in the fact when you do use them to replenish PP sometimes I go to cast a tech before i notice the card never hit the enemy, meaning that the tech casts from the card which for things like resta is a REAL pain.

Gunslash also has better range and faster shooting so restores PP better.

Also the having to stand still whilst using cards makes them feel a bit dangerous to me.

Zorafim

Jul 28, 2012, 01:36 AM

Yes, that's a good point too. When using cards, I'll often confuse myself because I have no clear indication of when I'm casting from the card, or casting from myself, until after I'm done casting. If I need to resta, or barta, and the card is still at a random spot despite me waiting a while, I'll often waste valuable time and PP wasting a cast. Rods are more reliable in that regard.

Of course, rods don't let me barta high up weak points like cards do.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 01:37 AM

If you take Rods and Cards of equal footing into account, Rod will always do more damage

When casting target skills like Rafoie, Card has no advantage

"Longer distance is a farce. The card travels a much farther distance that you are able to actually hit your enemy with"
Gunslash has more range, this is a fact
"Forces lack the capability to actually hit enemies with bullets (especially moving ones) past a couple of yards reliably"
It's no different from Hunter, or Ranger shooting a Gunslash.
"I will give you that the bullet travel time exceeds the travel time of the card slightly"
Gunslash bullets are instant
Gunslash JA shots also recover more PP than Card could hope to gain against a single target, meaning you spend less time doing normal attacks, and spend more time shooting higher damage Rafoie

Ryock

Jul 28, 2012, 01:38 AM

I disagree for a number reasons. My reasoning is such:

Rods are stronger. Considerably stronger in fact. You'll always get more damage on a rod than you will on a card. This cannot be argued. One would then wonder why use a card?

As far as utility, yes the card wins. But to what degree? Cards are definitely more useful than rods in particular parties if you come up to certain bosses based on your party. For example, if you're partying three hunters, they're obviously going to be in the boss' face the entire fight. Due to this, throwing a card to the boss to keep consistent damage and resta, shifta, deband, and techs based around the caster will in some cases have a lot more use.

About rod attacking versus card attacking. It's clear the card wins in this category as well. However, this isn't PSU where you have to wait for a whole 3-7 seconds for your weapon to load up in some cases. The weapon load up takes only a second and you can go straight into attacks. Tech casting with the rod, then switching to a card to get PP back is much more worthwhile for maximum damage against enemies. This is of course situational depending on what boss you're fighting, whether you're roaming, etc. But in many cases, I preferred to switch to a card to get PP back, and use the rod for my main source of tech damage.

Monster based situations now. If you're roaming, the card is going to see some rare use. Everyone is just running through obliterating everything. You'll be lucky to land any techs in some cases due to this. So you might as well have a rod out to do as much damage as possible when you do get a tech in, just to keep the party rolling at a quick pace.

They both have their uses. I could go more into this, but I feel this is sufficient enough for now. When it comes down to it, the card defeats the rod in many categories. The only category that allows a rod to be chosen over the card when you think about it is damage. If I had to take only one weapon over the other, I think I'd take the card. But since we do have both, it's nice to make use of both based on the situations.

Arika

Jul 28, 2012, 01:39 AM

If you are going for most efficiency, then..
Unless you just have a lot of time and just want to find some topic to talk, you don't even need to debate it here, JP has already debated it to the end once with more population and less delay/less lag test which I already told you the result.

Combo of Rod + gunslash = win TA.

Rod always have higher TP than card, if you use them of the same tier. Gunslash always refill your PP quicker than card, and you shoot while moving = never get hit by any monsters. it is perfectly fine in both solo or team play.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 01:42 AM

Strangely, I never use cards, unless I'm fighting bosses. Rods have slightly higher tech power, and they regenerate PP faster. Cards also leave me very vulnerable to ranged attacks, due to the high recovery time after a throwing animation. I could cancel out of that, but why bother when rods get me out faster anyway? And if you're using a Gi-styled AoE, where you're in the middle of enemies anyway, rods are better choices.

I voted for me using both though, since I do see the use of cards. Any time I need to stay at a range, I go card. Any time I'm better close up, I use a rod. That's pretty much the whole argument right there.Faster PP regeneration...I would like to see proof because I do not notice this. At all.

The recovery time of the throwing animation is a non-issue because you can cancel it entirely so there really is no superiority that rods have over cards in this regard. Also...you don't have to throw the card then cast the Gi spell...you can cast Gi spells on top of your character just as you can with a Rod, with a Card. You aren't restricted from casting spells as if you were using a Rod while wielding a Card.

I don't like card in the fact when you do use them to replenish PP sometimes I go to cast a tech before i notice the card never hit the enemy, meaning that the tech casts from the card which for things like resta is a REAL pain.This isn't really an issue with the Card. This is more your lack of mechanical knowledge of the weapon. If you are casting spells off of a deployed card on accident all the time, you haven't quite grasped its mechanics well enough.

Also I find the claims of the damage difference being monstrous to be false. I have done significant testing between a much superior T-ATT rod and a +10 Talis and see an absolute negligible amount of damage missing in comparison. The amount of utility you gain while using the Card outweighs this negligible difference by leaps and bounds.

Also the utility of the Gunslash does not weigh in favor of the Rod. That weighs in favor of using a Gunslash over basic attacking with either weapon. So arguing the validity of using a Gunslash isn't really a good focal point in this debate.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 01:43 AM

An equivalent rod always obliterates the talis in terms of raw power. So unless you get really lucky and find a rare talis before a good rod, the rod is the better choice for pure damage (or heals).

That said, the talis is a lot safer due to it being a ranged weapon. Well, as long as you remember to dodge instead of wait for its incredibly long rooted animation between attacks.

Garnet_Moon

Jul 28, 2012, 01:43 AM

Card + Antlion + GiGrants = lol
Rod + Antlion + Gigr--OH MY GOD IT'S EATING MY FACE

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 01:46 AM

Also...you don't have to throw the card then cast the Gi spell...you can cast Gi spells on top of your character just as you can with a Rod, with a Card. You aren't restricted from casting spells as if you were using a Rod while wielding a Card.

Losing a JA can make a big difference
Although, people doing this should TPS and aim down while tossing a card, then leave TPS while JA charging the point blank tech. But Rod still starts JA charging faster

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 01:50 AM

Losing a JA can make a big difference
Although, people doing this should TPS and aim down while tossing a card, then leave TPS while JA charging the point blank tech. But Rod still starts JA charging fasterYou don't have to waste a JA. The point is you don't have to get in the middle of the mobs to attack with a Gi spell in the first place. You can cast it from range.

Also...faster JA off the first basic attack? I highly doubt you know this unless you've done a frame by frame observation of the animations. They seem quite identical.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 01:51 AM

The recovery time of the throwing animation is a non-issue because you can cancel it entirely so there really is no superiority that rods have over cards in this regard.
You can cancel it entirely... by waiting ten years for your dodge animation to finish.

This isn't really an issue with the Card. This is more your lack of mechanical knowledge of the weapon. If you are casting spells off of a deployed card on accident all the time, you haven't quite grasped its mechanics well enough.
Except there is absolutely no indication that you'll cast from your character other than noticing the card is not physically on the field anymore. Unless you're preceding every tech by shooting a card into the ground, you cannot know for sure. You WILL accidentally whiff a tech now and then, and you WILL lose time even when you don't.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 01:54 AM

You don't have to waste a JA.

The point is you don't have to get in the middle of the mobs to attack with a Gi spell in the first place. You can cast it from range.

Also...faster JA off the first basic attack? I highly doubt you know this unless you've done a frame by frame observation of the animations. They seem quite identical.

With Gibarta, unless they fixed it, it doesn't follow locks, only character facing (which is always forward when locked on)
And there's no real reason to cast Gizonde from a thrown card

I was factoring in having to aim downwards, unless you run around with your TPS camera pointed 30% degrees down

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 01:55 AM

You can cancel it entirely... by waiting ten years for your dodge animation to finish.

Except there is absolutely no indication that you'll cast from your character other than noticing the card is not physically on the field anymore. Unless you're preceding every tech by shooting a card into the ground, you cannot know for sure. You WILL accidentally whiff a tech now and then, and you WILL lose time even when you don't.Allow me to educate.

The optimal cancel method for card swinging is not to dodge. It's to short hop. Try it. You lose absolutely zero time to the casting animation by simply short hopping and continuing on your merry way. As soon as you hit the jump button you are free to cast a new spell or do anything else to your hearts content with absolutely zero mobility loss. You thought dodging was the best way?

The best indication of when the card is safely in your hand to cast a proximity TECH is when you sheath the weapon, which takes about 1 second of running in place (run in a tiny little circle). As soon as you completely sheath the card and are able to run at max running speed, the card will without fail, 100% of the time, be available in your hand and will have despawned from the environment. Literally, it takes about 1 second to sheath it by running in a tiny circle...maybe even a few milliseconds shy. I have a huge breadth of experience testing this because I too was annoyed with the spawn/despawn mechanics of the card until I had these tiny little tricks figured out. I even made a thread a couple weeks ago asking about it.

Go experiment, you're missing out on much more highly optimized Card play.

RocSage

Jul 28, 2012, 01:58 AM

People always forget that skill to use something is a factor in balancing as well

FenixStryk

Jul 28, 2012, 02:00 AM

Zorafim

Jul 28, 2012, 02:02 AM

Faster PP regeneration...I would like to see proof because I do not notice this. At all.

From what I've seen, a staff will always regenerate 10pp per hit, while card is... I don't know, lower. I have a tough time recovering PP during boss fights using it.

The recovery time of the throwing animation is a non-issue because you can cancel it entirely so there really is no superiority that rods have over cards in this regard.

This still takes two seconds to get out of. Two seconds I can use to charge up another spell. It's just something you don't have to deal with when using a rod.

Also...you don't have to throw the card then cast the Gi spell...you can cast Gi spells on top of your character just as you can with a Rod, with a Card. You aren't restricted from casting spells as if you were using a Rod while wielding a Card.

Just Attacks. They're something I always use on every character, so I've gotten the habit down completely. There's just no way to JA into a gi-tech with a card. Though really, in that situation, you'd be using a rod anyway.
Even without those, there are times when I throw a card, then want to cast a spell. The spell, of course, ends up some place I don't expect it to be. And there's nothing I can really look at to really tell me if it'll work or not, if I'm even paying attention enough to notice. I could throw a card down, but that's another second I've wasted.

This isn't really an issue with the Card. This is more your lack of mechanical knowledge of the weapon. If you are casting spells off of a deployed card on accident all the time, you haven't quite grasped its mechanics well enough.

Yes, this is the biggest downside to the card. It's got a much higher learning curve to use properly compared to the staff. The staff is really intuitive, and the card isn't. It does make a bit more sense if you're ranged oriented, but you'll be wondering why it works the way it does when you're in melee.

Also I find the claims of the damage difference being monstrous to be false. I have done significant testing between a much superior T-ATT rod and a +10 Talis and see an absolute negligible amount of damage missing in comparison. The amount of utility you gain while using the Card outweighs this negligible difference by leaps and bounds.

I think I've got about a 80 tp difference between my staff and my card. So, my staff is 20% better in terms of stats, and I have 10% more tp with a staff. If you find cards more useful, that won't make much of a difference. But I know alot of players that would kill for 10% more tp.

elken1996

Jul 28, 2012, 02:03 AM

I can solo hard Ragne in city in 5min17seconds with the combination of rod+gunslash.With this skill build http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/force.html?01FO!IOI2GOdS2SIk8 and 1204 T-atk buffed with EX shifta drink and shifta

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:05 AM

If cards weren't behind in damage, I'd use them as my primary weapon. They control so well, but I care more about damage than control. Right now I only use cards to regen; Gunslash is better for PP regen, but I like having FO-dash as an escape over Gunslash's options... I'll switch to full Rod+GS eventually, but not yet.I still believe the damage difference to be negligible in terms of the amount of utility you gain.

In fact I hazard a guess that an efficient card player will kill things faster than a skilled rod player by a pretty wide margin because of their wider increased full circle radius of range, where as someone with a rod is bound by the range of their rod and current proximity around them unless they're using targeted techs. A card player doesn't have to move, a rod player likely needs to reposition themselves quite often.

I can solo hard Ragne in city in 5min17seconds with the combination of rod+gunslash.With this skill build http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/...!IOI2GOdS2SIk8 and 1204 T-atk buffed with EX shifta drink and shiftaThis doesn't prove anything. I could do the same thing with a card.

Zorafim

Jul 28, 2012, 02:06 AM

The optimal cancel method for card swinging is not to dodge. It's to short hop.

I've gotta say, you just blew my mind there. I've gotta give this a try now.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:11 AM

I've gotta say, you just blew my mind there. I've gotta give this a try now.
Please come back and tell how it fares.

You can literally cancel the animation the moment the card leaves your hand. It will open up a new horizon of card play for you once you get it perfected in tandem with sheath-casting as I explained in the same post.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 02:12 AM

As soon as you hit the jump button you are free to cast a new spell or do anything else to your hearts content with absolutely zero mobility loss.
Oh hey, so it does. Too bad you lose the JA this way, but it's not like you care about the damage from a Gunslash shot either. I wouldn't say zero mobility loss, since you still can't attack while moving.

The best indication of when the card is safely in your hand to cast a proximity TECH is when you sheath the weapon,

ahahahahAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

no.

rod wins

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:17 AM

Oh hey, so it does. Too bad you lose the JA this way, but it's not like you care about the damage from a Gunslash shot either. I wouldn't say zero mobility loss, since you still can't attack while moving.

ahahahahAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

no.

rod winsYou can't attack while moving with a Rod either unless you're actually referring to the inching the swings do, which I hope you aren't. Also...you don't lose a JA?

I don't get it. One who never throws their cards in spots they need to recall their card from never needs to deal with this phenomena anyway. The 2nd part of your post doesn't make a very compelling argument.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 02:18 AM

"The best indication of when the card is safely in your hand to cast a proximity TECH is when you sheath the weapon"
This only applies if you don't do your short hop cancel

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:18 AM

"The best indication of when the card is safely in your hand to cast a proximity TECH is when you sheath the weapon"
This only applies if you don't do your short hop cancelDo I need to make a video for you?

I am a fiend at SHC (Short Hop Cancel) in to sheath casting proximity spells (in case of emergency Restas for example). No matter how you get the sheath animation to happen, it 100% of the time results in the the card being returned to your hand. I know this for a fact because I do it as a regularity without fail.

NoiseHERO

Jul 28, 2012, 02:20 AM

I fucking hate Rods + Cards are more fun...

And What's all of this about using gunslash to regain PP, that doesn't sounds fun at all, it just sounds trying-too-hard. e_e;

Which if you're trying too hard in a phantasy star online game... Well I hope you find it fun, cause this game is too casual to waste your time on that. Just sayin' >_>;

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 02:21 AM

Do I need to make a video for you?

I am a fiend at short hopping in to sheath to cast proximity spells (in case of emergency Restas). No matter how you get the sheath animation to happen, it 100% of the time results in the the card being returned to your hand. I know this for a fact.

I am testing in the camp ship
The card takes almost 2 seconds to disappear once it has reached its range limit; doing a short hop makes you have to wait for the time you saved by canceling

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 02:22 AM

You can't attack while moving with a Rod either unless you're actually referring to the inching the swings do, which I hope you aren't. Also...you don't lose a JA?

They were talking about Gunslash

Also, short hop cancel makes you either have to throw another non JA card, or cast a non JA tech. That's losing a JA

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:24 AM

They were talking about Gunslash

Also, short hop cancel makes you either have to throw another non JA card, or cast a non JA tech. That's losing a JAYou have to swing the rod to throw a JA spell from resting, just as you have to throw the card to get a JA spell from resting. How is a JA lost?

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 02:27 AM

You can't attack while moving with a Rod either unless you're actually referring to the inching the swings do, which I hope you aren't. Also...you don't lose a JA?

When you jump, the JA indicator disappears. It's identical to the rod in this case, sure, but I meant running and gunning with the gunslash for PP generation on the go. Either way, this slightly redeems the talis in my eyes.

The 2nd part of your post doesn't make a very compelling argument.
Sorry, it's just that you were advocating a five second wait time in the middle of a fight that's suddenly turned melee. The absurdity of the suggestion said with a straight face was just too much for me.

You're also ignoring the fact that the card disappears with time, unrelated to whether or not the talis is sheathed. Casting techs doesn't extend this time, so if you're using any of those, you're waiting unnecessarily long.

Sp-24

Jul 28, 2012, 02:27 AM

Zalera

Jul 28, 2012, 02:29 AM

This should have been the end of this topic.

One card user desperately claiming that they outdamage rod users makes this topic continue indefiniately.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:32 AM

This should have been the end of this topic. I mostly use cards, but Rafoie/Grants on a rod + gunblade to recover PP is what I take when I'm actually trying. Cards have some awesome uses, like for making Gizonde own small enemies, but rod+gunblade is the best DPS setup.I don't think it should have been the end of the topic because it's not true. It isn't optimal in the slightest for the many things it lacks in the face of a Card. At best it's an alternative with some slight advantages in certain areas, but I will still maintain that Cards are superior.

Sorry, it's just that you were advocating a five second wait time in the middle of a fightLike I said, I'll make a video if I have to and stick a stop watch on it. It's no where near five seconds. Like I stated earlier it's close to one second.

Priority on Rods, learn to master Talis for the situations where it will be better than a rod. That's really all there is to it.

That's all, if you think Rod's are worthless, that's on you.What about this post would lead me to believe you aren't being a sheep?

One card user desperately claiming that they outdamage rod users makes this topic continue indefiniately.
Please show me where I'm desperately claiming I out damage rod users. Please. Your reading comprehension be damned.

Sp-24

Jul 28, 2012, 02:35 AM

I don't think it should have been the end of the topic because it's not true. It isn't optimal in the slightest for the many things it lacks in the face of a Card. At best it's an alternative with some slight advantages in certain areas, but I will still maintain that Cards are superior.

It isn't superior. Rod is slightly stronger, and gunblade recovers PP slightly faster, while cards can do neither. Cards have a niche in Gizonde, as I said before, but in both damage and support, rod+gunblade wins.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:37 AM

@GoldenFalcon

Okay, I'll have to give you this one to some degree.

If you immediately cancel a basic attack animation with a SHC and go for a sheath cast, you are correct, the card will not have withdrawn just yetp, but this is not really a practical movement in combat anyway. Your card has usually been deployed a decent amount of time before you're deciding to retract it for a proximity cast, and it's really only a 1-2 second window of time the card will stay deployed given you actually have a reason to instantaneously cancel your first card swing animation. The point I'm making is the situations in which you will get screwed by a wrongly directed ability off a outstanding deployed card are very few and far between.

It's not practical to judge the weapons inefficiency on this though, because nobody throws a basic attack with intention to cancel it IMMEDIATELY. That's just wasting animation time overall because nothing advantageous comes out of it. A smarter player would simply position themselves better.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 02:41 AM

Like I said, I'll make a video if I have to and stick a stop watch on it. It's no where near five seconds. Like I stated earlier it's close to one second.

Do it. Time how long it takes to sheathe your weapon after first hitting a key.

Then time short hopping and throwing a card into the floor.

Now time how quickly you can switch to a rod after throwing a card and short hopping.

And finally, throw a card, cast techs until you see the card disappear, and time how long it takes to sheathe your weapon.

So why again are you using the slowest possible method?

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 02:41 AM

Throwing a card into the ground for a character-centered Tech is like three times as fast compared to waiting for the thrown one to disappear anyway, and you get JA, so it doesn't matter

I didn't say anything about inefficiency, I was just curious since I'm a Cast who doesn't care about Force. Although, I think it's hilarious how you can manipulate card direction so easily (in the case of no lock, no TPS), by tapping a direction like S while throwing to throw a card straight toward the screen no matter what direction your character is facing, without worrying about turning

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 02:46 AM

Although, I think it's hilarious how you can manipulate card direction so easily (in the case of no lock, no TPS), by tapping a direction like S while throwing to throw a card straight toward the screen no matter what direction your character is facing, without worrying about turning

Too bad it doesn't work if a target's anywhere nearby or it'd be a useful mechanic

Sp-24

Jul 28, 2012, 02:48 AM

Too bad it doesn't work if a target's anywhere nearby or it'd be a useful mechanic

It's strange how (I think) it seems to work for Sonic Arrow, though.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 02:48 AM

Do it. Time how long it takes to sheathe your weapon after first hitting a key.

Then time short hopping and throwing a card into the floor.

Now time how quickly you can switch to a rod after throwing a card and short hopping.

And finally, throw a card, cast techs until you see the card disappear, and time how long it takes to sheathe your weapon.

So why again are you using the slowest possible method?The timer should start from the moment the short hop happens not when the when basic attack starts, because ideally the SHC is the signal that you are going for a proximity cast. If we don't need to SHC in the first place for any reason, then why would we need to time how long it takes for the card to go back to your hand from the beginning of the basic attack?

Also it is important to mention...

Alternatively, you can just throw a new card (which is an instantaneous action even if you're caught up in the card swinging animation and you don't SHC), and cast something like Resta as immediately as possible. The card at most if you are quick will be not even 2 yards in front of you. You can take 2 steps during the cast and be inside of it when it goes off. So there's that too.

Second of all, the value of the sheath method is when you've already been casting off a deployed card and need to bring it back, that's really the logical and practical situation you need to do it. My statements earlier about it being a 100% sure thing applies to this situation. Off of a SHC basic attack, yes GoldenFalcon is correct. However, if you're retracting an already deployed card that you've been casting off of already, it works flawlessly.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 02:49 AM

No, I have plenty of experience with Sonic Aero, I always have to tap TPS mode to make sure it shoots in the direction of my camera

Is there an option to disable auto passive lock? I kinda wish it could be on a keybind, and I'm sure many people have said as much

Vyscillius

Jul 28, 2012, 02:51 AM

I'm a Rod pro-user.

First off, I think this debate is pointless, OP clearly stated that he is a Card pro-user and nothing, absolutely nothing will change his mind.

The reason why I choose Rod over Cards is because my main is a Hunter, I like taking risks, going straight to the battlefield and spamming Rabarta or Gigrants with my Rod. Plus, Rods have higher T-atk so Rods win for me. As for the whole "I see no difference significant differences" small numbers, even the smallest matters. 1hp is the difference between life and death afterall.

As far as PPregen goes, I never lack PP with a rod, it's risky to actually hit monster with the rod but I know their patterns and heck, I have resta so who really cares? Plus, I'm use to dodging.

That's my main objection on cards, why can't force throw cards while moving? The fact that they stand still while throwing is what bothers me, it stops me in my tracks.

Cards don't agree with my fighting style, I found them cool at first but they annoy me now.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 02:52 AM

The card at most if you are quick will be not even 2 yards in front of you.

This is not possible, the minimum distance the card has to travel is about 2 seconds of walking.

Sp-24

Jul 28, 2012, 02:59 AM

First off, I think this debate is pointless, OP clearly stated that he is a Card pro-user and nothing, absolutely nothing will change his mind.

It will solidify the pros of rods and cons of cards for other people, so I think it isn't pointless.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 03:02 AM

This is not possible, the minimum distance the card has to travel is about 2 seconds of walking.I never do this anyway, and I predominantly (always) use a card.

If I need to retract the card to heal myself or my teammates, I SHC in to sheath and do it, there's no lag time or waiting involved here. It all happens in the blink of an eye.

The example I gave was simply a method in which you could cast a proximity tech with the same effectiveness as you would a Rod without even having to actually go through retracting the card effectively also not losing a JA, though retracting the card is not difficult anyway for me anyhow, so I never need to do it and it's a moot point.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 03:04 AM

The timer should start from the moment the short hop happens not when the when basic attack starts
Then do it like that. Time how long it takes to sheathe your weapon after jumping.

Then jump at the same moment, throw a card into the floor, and time how long it takes to hit the ground.

Now time how quickly you can switch to a rod after throwing a card and jumping.

And finally, throw a card, cast techs until you see the card disappear, and time how long it takes to sheathe your weapon. All while you're able to cast a tech from your character. Time wasted. Waiting. For nothing.

This is not possible, the minimum distance the card has to travel is about 2 seconds of walking.
You can easily catch a charged Resta with a card. Throw, charge, walk, release right as it's charged, and the first tick still hits you.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 03:28 AM

Asks what other Forces use, insults those who disagree/don't do the same. I understand having your own play style and doing things your own way, but don't insult other's who have a different play style. I don't really care about you finding Rod's worthless, but at least be some what mature in your own thread.I haven't insulted anybody. Don't be a part of the problem on PSOW that is blowing a useful debate out of proportion on account of feeling offended that I disagree and have a different opinion than you.

- Stronger, enough said there.

- Rafoie and Grants are precision strikes. Rafoie being a DPS monster, and obviously having it's damage augmented by using a more powerful weapon.

- Foie, Barta, and Zonde are worthless cast from a Talis.How are Foie Barta and Zonde any less worthy coming from a Talis? Please expand on this.

Your first two points are the exact same point, and I've already stated the damage difference in my opinion is negligible to the utility and awareness you gain by being out of melee range.

Techs come straight from you, this obviously gives you more overall control in quick changing situations. You get surrounded with a Card while being a "back row" Force and you have to re-position, this is a time sink. With Rod's? You keep doing what you were doing. Expanding on this a bit, direct casting gives Foie advantages that Rafoie doesn't have in regards to certain weakpoints, making Foie not-so-useless. Talis can't do this though, unless you cast directly, or waste time going into TPS just to try to prove a point more slowly.Even as a Card User I'm hardly ever "back row". You just might not know how to use it properly but just because the card is a ranged weapon doesn't mean you instantly lose your ability to cast techs close range.

- Faster PP recovery when you take range into consideration, if you're so close to enemies that the Talis is out-speeding the Rod's PP recovery, you might as well be using a Rod. This isn't taking into account the Rod having a horizontal swing instead of a straight penetrating throw, generally hitting more targets in an open space (the majority of areas) than a Talis will.Not understanding your point here. Talis isn't inferior to rods in the effectiveness of the abilities in any other way aside from damage between a Rod and a Card of the same tier, and that's only through a slight T-ATT difference, which is negligible as I've stated (you know why we don't max it on our skill trees? Other stuff is better).

- Being close to bosses (well, every enemy really) allows you more control over their movements and patterns than being at a distance. This is especially true for Rockbear, Vol Dragon, Dark Ragne and the Panthers.

- Talis has a nice CC gimmick, it is just that though. Sure you can preach safety all you want, but that's just excusing poor game play, really. Never mind that the good CC Techs (Gifoie, Rabarta, Gigrants) all have frequent stagger or heavy action delay, so consecutively casting them in the middle of a mob is no problem. Enemies don't surround a Talis, they surround you, so you waste more time throwing a Talis and then casting a Tech instead of just rushing in, smacking one upside the head and then unleashing hell. Especially when enemies like to move out of the Talis' radius.This is just blatantly false.

Your control of the situation is gauged by awareness and knowledge of your surroundings which inarguably comes from being further from the fight, especially with bigger mobs. An excuse for poor game play? Are you mad? As a force, being awful in melee range is not poor gameplay, it's a feature of the class. You are not supposed to take pride in your acquisition of melee skills as a Force. Your job is first and foremost to support your party, then to lay waste with techs. Cards heighten the potential for you to do this more efficiently and allow you to execute higher skill capped game play because of the ability to essentially ranged support.

As stated before, it is not hard if you understand Cards to cast a Gi tech in the same way you'd do it with a rod. Usability is really not a an argument you can make. Strength and sheer power, sure.

jooozek

Jul 28, 2012, 03:58 AM

I think Shakuri is implying mildly that no one should get hit anyway so you don't need a support force because casting Shifta is pretty fast.

Xaeris

Jul 28, 2012, 04:00 AM

What? Use of Resta is hardly the mark of a good Force. This isn't WoW or some other MMO. Everyone is perfectly capable of maintaining their own health, and frankly, they're better at keeping themselves in fighting shape than any would be babysitter.

sugarFO

Jul 28, 2012, 04:12 AM

Of course I only use Resta on myself, who else is in my party 99% of the time? You aren't saying I should babysit people in MPA's are you? That doesn't benefit me at all. Ha ha haaaa.

I miss being a full support FO like in PSOBB. ._. Being a babysitter was enjoyable, nursing my troops back to health and making them nice n strong. Lol. :cry:

Lulufia

Jul 28, 2012, 06:20 AM

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet but for everyone complaining about the Talis/Card basic attack speed try jumping and attacking, it's amazing. :-)

Dammy

Jul 28, 2012, 06:40 AM

im using both
sometimes rod is better, sometimes card is better, depends on situation

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 06:53 AM

My usage depends, but I'm about 70/30 for rods/talis.

I prefer rods, but that is obviously down to it suiting my playing style a lot more than talis. But I don't ignore other weapons at all.

There is one pro that rods have over talis though. Rods can cancel regular enemy attacks since it can cause them to flinch, the talis on the other hand can't do that.

Scale of Judgment

Jul 28, 2012, 07:05 AM

To be honest, it's kind of moot to say one is "worthless" than the other when we have only 3 weapons to work with. Heck, you can still play with only a gunslash and wing it.
For optimal play, you play ALL 3 base upon situation.
Now if we are complaining about luck of weapon drops...maybe I would agree.
EDIT: A true force player will work with what they have. Period.

Kondibon

Jul 28, 2012, 07:12 AM

I find that it depends on the situation. I find talis cards much more useful in large multi party groups or PSE bursts when people and enemies are spread out. It's faster to throw a card for AoEing than running all over the place. But I prefer staffs for soloing since everything would be agroing me anyway.

However I find that certain enemies are better fought with certain weapons. Against large groups of enemies that move slowly or try to keep their distance I tend to use talis cards, but against single enemies that are constantly trying to get in your face or who have easier tells up close (Like Rockbear Katerdran or the Banther) I find staff better since I'd never actually take advantage of the main gimick of the cards at that range. Throwing cards at close range means I either have to wait for the card to reset and likely miss out on a just attack. Sure, you can throw them at the ground or whatever, but that means taking your eyes off the enemies and risking getting hit.

I also don't like using talis cards for support. Once you throw them it can be a bit difficult to gauge the distance, as well as the fact that most sane players won't be staying still long enough for you to even charge the tech. If you want to try again you have to throw another card. With a staff I can just try to stay near them while it's charging.

Cortte

Jul 28, 2012, 07:13 AM

At first I used Cards because I liked them in PSO and thought the range would help, but when you are going mainly fire tree you don't need range at all. Rafoie explodes right on top of the target as long you're targeting it, so I find a rod more useful for the power. Not to mention that rods have really wide range. I seem to always hit enemies even when I am too far below them when they are air born, or even just a bit too far a way. Once I need some PP regen I take out my gun slash and have at it with the shots.

Miyoko

Jul 28, 2012, 08:58 AM

I can solo hard Ragne in city in 5min17seconds with the combination of rod+gunslash.With this skill build http://ryuhiroshi.ry.funpic.de/pso2/...!IOI2GOdS2SIk8 and 1204 T-atk buffed with EX shifta drink and shifta

This doesn't prove anything. I could do the same thing with a card.

Then do it. If you can pull it off, maybe you'll change some naysayers against cards. If you can't, maybe you'll reconsider the use of rods.

Shadowth117

Jul 28, 2012, 09:04 AM

As long as you have PP Charge Revival, I really don't see a lot of advantage most of the time when using a card. It can be very convenient to use to use if you're worried about your safety close range because you have trouble dodging anything, but I don't find myself having that issue. My PP recharges well enough with Charge Revival that ranged combat, when its actually necessary, isn't much of a problem for me. Not to mention that when mobs surround me, I can get MORE pp back than a talis could ever hope to in one swing of my rod since it hits multiple targets in front of me. It seems silly to me to stay on the outside of a mob and throw a talis in to Gifoie when I could walk into it and potentially gain way more PP back quicker by hitting at least 3 enemies at a time with a melee whereas my talis may possibly overpenetrate a 2 enemies on the way in.

Yes, on bosses at times it could be potentially better. However its only better when there's a major advantage to using it that way. For example, breaking the horn on top of the Vol Dragon with Rabarta. This is obviously better done with a talis. It isn't better to me anytime that you don't need to cast from a specific area (hint 99%). I'm not going to bother using Rafoie off a card to hit a lock on point when my rod will just do more damage.

Some of this just comes down to how you want to play and I understand that. However I think its fun personally to stay close range and learn to dodge things skillfully. I can respect not wanting to play that way, but don't try to tell me and others that our way sucks simply because you are unable to play that way with any sort of skill.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 10:18 AM

Gardios

Jul 28, 2012, 10:56 AM

Why I use a rod over a talis:

- They are stronger. The damage difference might not be much, but it adds up over the course of a fight.
- TPS mode is really not intuitive at all with a controller and since I use a one... yeah. Using it is necessary if you want precision because the auto target feature is terrible when using a talis.
- Talis are too slow for PbAoE techs. In the time it takes to throw the card and charge the tech, chances are the target already moved outside the AoE. With rods, you can follow them while charging.
- Being close to the enemy isn't an issue. Attacking with rods is fine because Mirage Escape is absolutely amazing. If I need to charge PP and staying in melee range for too long is too dangerous, gunslashes get the job done.

If we ever got a new weapon type that allowed us to move the position of AoE techs at the expense of standing still (like this, blue circle is the target area (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0qby5guLi0#t=3m11s)), hell yeah I'd use it. But until then, rods and gunslashes are all I need.

Galax

Jul 28, 2012, 11:13 AM

...Having read the topic through, page 1 to page 7, I see people arguing efficiency. I see people trying to convince each other that they shouldn't be using a rod or a card. I just want to ask why it matters to everyone so much...Some of us will choose to play less efficiently in one person's eyes because we like cards or we've adapted to cards and find ourselves keeping pace with rod users. Is PSO2 truly so hard already that we need people going around with the best gear saying 'You shouldn't use that weapon, it's not good enough'? I was never under the impression, in PSO, PSU, PSZ, or PSO2, that I was not powerful enough to keep pace with my peers if I put my mind to it. Some of us are going to play with what weapon we like, and some of us are going to choose what others don't find efficient. Some of those people with the "less efficient" weapons are going to find them more suited to them, and that fact means they get better with one while their use of the other lags behind. It's a game where we can choose our gear - It's not like Final Fantasy or Fire Emblem, where each character you control is given a specific weapon set to use and you're not allowed to give Ross bows or Tifa a longsword. This is PSO2. You can play a FOrce and use whatever weapon they're given, and the thing is because gunblades are universal, we get magic, a sword AND a gun. Look at that! We get everything. So let's all stop arguing with each other and trying to push people out of how they play, because that's all that seems to go on in these debates - "You should use rods, they're obviously superior." "No, cards can be as good if not better because you can SHC and sheath your weapon to shoot off techs where you want." "But rods do that with less hassle." "It's not hard to master cards." How about, since in seven pages you haven't convinced each other, give up and go home to your favored weapons. I use cards because I play the game for fun, and I find the challenge of them fun, but I often switch back to my rods because I link two of my elements to rods and two of them to cards - I'm not giving either up. Why should anyone give up what weapon they like in a GAME, which was designed for us to have FUN. Some of us have fun one way, others have fun another, GET OVER IT.

Kondibon

Jul 28, 2012, 11:17 AM

Wall of text!

But yes I agree. I love reading about other players playstyles and the kinds of things they do or find better in different situations but I've noticed a lot of threads like this turn into srsbsns when the differences aren't that big anyway.

Galax

Jul 28, 2012, 11:24 AM

^Thank you. And I apologize for the textwall - I feel very strongly that people should stop arguing and enjoy the game, and it generally comes into a matter as a textwall.

Omega-z

Jul 28, 2012, 11:33 AM

depends on the situation, like everyone said even tho you can make any of them over lap if you wish.

Adv. over other's

Rod's

1.) Have the highest DPS for Tech's and most attack's
2.) Have the highest PP regan*(When in Melee,Mob range)
3.) Are the best at JA attack's with Tech's
4.) Can Stun lock Target's (Melee range)
5.) The best at Charged Tech type attack's

Talis's

1.) Best at Terrain casting ie. around object..etc.
2.) Best use out of the Gi-type spell's at a distance and TPS mode
3.) Faster casting speed with normal Tech's
4.) Burst locking
5.) The best with adding SE's (affixes)
6.) Added damage with Photon Flare* (with it's ranged attack)

Gunslash's

1.) Can strife
2.) Best PP regan at a distance or non-stun-able single target's
3.) Fastest in added damage with it PA's*( Code Destruction's & Rescue or in general non DPS )
4.) The best against Tech resistant Foe's
5.) Blow cancel ( saving yourself 1 SP from getting Just Reversal if you wish )

These are the only Adv. I see in each weapon anything else is just moot point's at best and not a big deal. And the situation you can use any or all of them.

jooozek

Jul 28, 2012, 11:39 AM

So did someone actually find some fast way of card withdrawing?

Omega-z

Jul 28, 2012, 11:49 AM

It's any action that makes you put your weapon back or sheaf it. It can help the battle but has it's con's too. It just depend's on the situation.

pikachief

Jul 28, 2012, 12:01 PM

Jeeze! Zipzo you make a topic basically saying "i feel that rods are worthless why would you use one over talis?" and then 99% of the responses tell you that they arent and how they prefer rods.

Please realize and deal with the fact that you are a very small miniority in thinking tgat talis is better than rod and get on with it. No one is going to agree with you. I stop by this thread every once in a while just to see if anyone is on your side lol.

Sorry if i sound harsh but it seems like you turned "whats your opinion on rods and talises" into "talis is more useful, if you think rods are you're wrong and your playstyle and opnion is wrong"

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 12:01 PM

Amazing how this thread appeared overnight.

Me, I've been using rods almost exclusively throughout my entire PSO2 career. The reasons are as follows:

1. More power. I absolutely want to see my numbers as high as they can possibly get. This means talis is a no-no right off the bat.
2. Cards are ANNOYING to place correctly, and they can't move once placed so you have to throw new cards. There are so many situations where I throw a card only to see it disappear (!?) instead of landing at the spot I intended. If they were at least consistent, I would maybe consider using them more often.
3. You are IMMOBILE while using a talis. Absolutely my biggest issue with them. I'd much rather use a gunslash to generate PP. Not only are you mobile while using them, but their projectiles have no travel time, whereas a Talis will frequently miss against a moving target in addition to making you stand stock-still while you're throwing the bloody things.

Certainly, the range of a Talis is quite a boon... but with the Force's dodge being as great as it is, it's completely unnecessary to fight at range unless the target is just too dangerous.

I'll also note that most of my techs have decent enough range as they are, making the range boost rather not so material in my eyes. I can clear an entire room without stopping to charge my pp once in the first place, what use is a Talis then? Considering that's, y'know, what I do 90% of the time (if that - I hardly do boss runs anymore), I find it disingenuous to assert that boss fights are the biggest and most important factor in any of this. Even then, again, gunslashes are superior for pp generation anyways.

I pretty much restated what a bunch of other folks have already said, but I don't see any harm in reinforcing it.

Laxedrane

Jul 28, 2012, 12:22 PM

^Thank you. And I apologize for the textwall - I feel very strongly that people should stop arguing and enjoy the game, and it generally comes into a matter as a textwall.

I completely agree with everything you said but the enter key is your friend.

You could write an essay that brings your teacher to tears it's so brilliant. I guarantee you s/he will give you a 99 if you didn't bother to separate your paragraphs.(possibly lower.)

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 01:13 PM

Zipzo made this thread after buying all of the cool Cards on the shops, in an attempt to sell them for a high price and profit immensely.

Galax

Jul 28, 2012, 01:30 PM

I completely agree with everything you said but the enter key is your friend.

You could write an essay that brings your teacher to tears it's so brilliant. I guarantee you s/he will give you a 99 if you didn't bother to separate your paragraphs.(possibly lower.)

I could have used enter, and would have had it appeared fully in quick reply.
But since it didn't, and I had to get up and help take care of things in real life a few seconds after the post was finished, I didn't get much of a chance to remember to edit it.

And I'd agree with you on my teachers, but I've graduated high school and am taking a bit of time off before I head into college. No teachers to turn it in to...Lest you count my parents. *shrug*

Coatl

Jul 28, 2012, 02:34 PM

I was stuck using the Dual Gaze that looks like it took its inspirations from Yugioh, just because the affixes that came with it (60 Tech 50HP) were godly. Then I see that the August patch will include yet another Talis that looks outlandish.

I'm seriously considering switching to rods just because of the superior asthetics they possess. I've shed too many tears from looking at other force's Foruons, and then looking back at my Dual Gaze.

Card + Antlion + GiGrants = lol
Rod + Antlion + Gigr--OH MY GOD IT'S EATING MY FACE

You see, this is why I am reluctant to switch to rods.
Those AOEs of yours become very situational once you have a rod. With a talis, you can throw it in a clump of monsters and let that AOE rip.
But with rods, you have to take the time to walk to your enemies, and then AOE. You sacrifice time and your safety for what? Nothing.

....
But honestly this game is way too easy to even care about any of this.
Aesthetics > All.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 02:59 PM

1. More power.
2. Cards are ANNOYING to place correctly
3. a Talis will frequently miss against a moving target
1. Pretty much.
2. Card mechanics are pretty consistent. They disappear A) if they hit the landscape, B) over time, and C) if you switch weapons.
3. Lead your shots and place your AoEs with TPS mode.

Coatl

Jul 28, 2012, 03:05 PM

Zipzo made this thread after buying all of the cool Cards on the shops, in an attempt to sell them for a high price and profit immensely.

I lol'd.

Gardios

Jul 28, 2012, 03:08 PM

You see, this is why I am reluctant to switch to rods.
Those AOEs of yours become very situational once you have a rod. With a talis, you can throw it in a clump of monsters and let that AOE rip.
But with rods, you have to take the time to walk to your enemies, and then AOE. You sacrifice time and your safety for what? Nothing.
POWER!

Never had the problem against Antlion myself because there was always a poor soul that gets chewed on despite his best efforts to escape. lol

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 03:11 PM

1. Pretty much.
2. Card mechanics are pretty consistent. They disappear A) if they hit the landscape, B) over time, and C) if you switch weapons.
3. Lead your shots and place your AoEs with TPS mode.
See, I don't get #2 at all, because mine disappear pretty much every time I just try to throw them up. If throwing them up counts as "hitting the landscape", well, goddamnit, they're bloody well useless to me! The only reason I ever even want to use them in the first place is to extend the range of Razonde, and I can never seem to get the damn things to stick where I want them to stick.

Also, I refuse to use TPS on a bloody Force. I'd rather lock on to a weak point and attack with impunity.

Shadowth117

Jul 28, 2012, 03:12 PM

Please. Try to keep the puffed up chest out of this. I know how to use a Rod. It doesn't take a brain surgeon or an MLG tier gamer professional to use a Rod in PSO2. Don't fool yourself in to thinking you're playing on another level because you use one.

Wasn't saying I was any better than anyone else, but saying "Rods are absolutely worthless." implies heavily that you have no idea how to use one. I mean according to you, close range combat isn't even meant to be used on force. Its not like AOE spells suddenly do nothing when you cast them from your person where the enemies group up anyway. Also pretty funny considering the opening video and pretty much all the promotional art features a rod and not a talis. You could argue its an icon, but there's a reason for that even in this game. Just because Forces now have a "Ranged support utility" does not mean that its suddenly the most broken thing in the game.

And I'm not part of a minority when I say that I don't have problems avoiding damage while using a rod. You on the other hand apparently can't manage to feel "safe" using one. So I'm sorry you can't manage that. I'm sorry for giving an opinion that's not yours when you made an entire topic devoted to getting such attention.

On the contrary, you seem to be very gungho about how amazing cards are as if they are God's gift to Forces and make it sound as if you're quite a good user of them yourself. They are cool and useful yes. But even they have their limits. You're still stuck relatively mid range with them just because of their throw distance. You still have to be fairly close if you want to do anything anyway. While its awesome to be able to throw a card somewhere to cast an AOE tech or cast outward from a different vantage point, its not really going to give you an advantage most of the time during normal gameplay. They are good, but they are hardly necessary. For that reason I generally stick with rods. No reason to use a weaker weapon if I'm not really gaining much from it in my opinion. Of course that doesn't stop anyone else from playing in a way that's fun to them and I'm okay with that.

In the end though, its clear you simply wanted attention from the start by making such an objective statement so there you have it. Its just sad that you apparently have a need to resort to such silly stunts.

Scarlet_Rain

Jul 28, 2012, 03:13 PM

RODS. Bitches love rods.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 03:23 PM

Wasn't saying I was any better than anyone else, but saying "Rods are absolutely worthless." implies heavily that you have no idea how to use one. I mean according to you, close range combat isn't even meant to be used on force. Its not like AOE spells suddenly do nothing when you cast them from your person where the enemies group up anyway. Also pretty funny considering the opening video and pretty much all the promotional art features a rod and not a talis. You could argue its an icon, but there's a reason for that even in this game. Just because Forces now have a "Ranged support utility" does not mean that its suddenly the most broken thing in the game.

And I'm not part of a minority when I say that I don't have problems avoiding damage while using a rod. You on the other hand apparently can't manage to feel "safe" using one. So I'm sorry you can't manage that. I'm sorry for giving an opinion that's not yours when you made an entire topic devoted to getting such attention.

On the contrary, you seem to be very gungho about how amazing cards are as if they are God's gift to Forces and make it sound as if you're quite a good user of them yourself. They are cool and useful yes. But even they have their limits. You're still stuck relatively mid range with them just because of their throw distance. You still have to be fairly close if you want to do anything anyway. While its awesome to be able to throw a card somewhere to cast an AOE tech or cast outward from a different vantage point, its not really going to give you an advantage most of the time during normal gameplay. They are good, but they are hardly necessary. For that reason I generally stick with rods. No reason to use a weaker weapon if I'm not really gaining much from it in my opinion. Of course that doesn't stop anyone else from playing in a way that's fun to them and I'm okay with that.

In the end though, its clear you simply wanted attention from the start by making such an objective statement so there you have it. Its just sad that you apparently have a need to resort to such silly stunts.

I had one of my posts deleted for telling someone they have a lack of skill showing, so I don't see any reason why yours wouldn't potentially get deleted if reported as well. I'm just trying to keep the conversation fluent.

There's no reason to blockade the discussion people, although I have a strong opinion on cards, I made this thread specifically to see the extreme opposite opinion of mine own, because I knew it existed. This isn't useless arguing, I'm learning about the benefit of rods where I see none. Arguing a stance doesn't mean I'm putting people down or I'm being stubborn, I'm just putting peoples opinion to the test of knowledge and experience. I had a big post written out about the "strength" and "negativity" of my words but essentially it amounted to : take it with a grain of salt. What's important is your opinion, not your opinion of how I gave my opinion.

Sorry if i sound harsh but it seems like you turned "whats your opinion on rods and talises" into "talis is more useful, if you think rods are you're wrong and your playstyle and opnion is wrong"Nothing you could say to me would bother me in the slightest, and that's not even close to what I'm saying.

I am forcing Rod users to defend their choice, yes. In turn, they are subscribing to the thread to leave their negative remarks on the Card, to which I will respond in terms of the knowledge & experience I possess with the weapon. This isn't a parking lot fight, it's called debate. Don't be so hypocritical.

I have told nobody they are wrong for using a Rod, I've simply expressed what I think, and have reached out and asked people to prove me wrong. I don't think I'm committing debate crimes here, to be honest. You either have something to add or you don't.

...Having read the topic through, page 1 to page 7, I see people arguing efficiency. I see people trying to convince each other that they shouldn't be using a rod or a card. I just want to ask why it matters to everyone so much...Some of us will choose to play less efficiently in one person's eyes because we like cards or we've adapted to cards and find ourselves keeping pace with rod users. Is PSO2 truly so hard already that we need people going around with the best gear saying 'You shouldn't use that weapon, it's not good enough'? I was never under the impression, in PSO, PSU, PSZ, or PSO2, that I was not powerful enough to keep pace with my peers if I put my mind to it. Some of us are going to play with what weapon we like, and some of us are going to choose what others don't find efficient. Some of those people with the "less efficient" weapons are going to find them more suited to them, and that fact means they get better with one while their use of the other lags behind. It's a game where we can choose our gear - It's not like Final Fantasy or Fire Emblem, where each character you control is given a specific weapon set to use and you're not allowed to give Ross bows or Tifa a longsword. This is PSO2. You can play a FOrce and use whatever weapon they're given, and the thing is because gunblades are universal, we get magic, a sword AND a gun. Look at that! We get everything. So let's all stop arguing with each other and trying to push people out of how they play, because that's all that seems to go on in these debates - "You should use rods, they're obviously superior." "No, cards can be as good if not better because you can SHC and sheath your weapon to shoot off techs where you want." "But rods do that with less hassle." "It's not hard to master cards." How about, since in seven pages you haven't convinced each other, give up and go home to your favored weapons. I use cards because I play the game for fun, and I find the challenge of them fun, but I often switch back to my rods because I link two of my elements to rods and two of them to cards - I'm not giving either up. Why should anyone give up what weapon they like in a GAME, which was designed for us to have FUN. Some of us have fun one way, others have fun another, GET OVER IT.This is a debate as to the efficiency of both weapons pinned up against one another, this post is at best, off topic. The point of the thread is to discuss the weapons VS each other (check the name of the thread).

I am discussing these factors to the very height of their optimization. A min/max ethic if you will. So there's no reason to barge in with the "Everyone just have fun" stuff. You could probably clear most of PSO2's content with one arm, using melee PA's on a Gunslash as a Force, but that's not what we're discussing. I'm discussing optimal min/maxed play.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 03:27 PM

and have reached out and asked people to prove me wrong.

They did, and you just don't reply to them, and only respond to newer posts.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 03:32 PM

They did, and you just don't reply to them, and only respond to newer posts.
That's because I've had an onslaught of the troll patrol mob getting on my case about how I'm so mean and use strong words I've had to deflect. I've been reading every single response. To say I've been "proved wrong" is a glorious over statement.

Most of the Rod users have expressed a bitterness in the face of the Cards usability, which I find to be simply a lack of knowledge of how to use the weapon properly. RocSage mentioned earlier that the card has a different learning curve than the Rod. I'm inclined to agree here, the Rod is simpler to use. It's more straight forward. A bit more T-ATT doesn't justify the loss of the Cards utility, in my eyes however.

Shadowth117

Jul 28, 2012, 03:38 PM

I had one of my posts deleted for telling someone they have a lack of skill showing, so I don't see any reason why yours wouldn't potentially get deleted if reported as well. I'm just trying to keep the conversation fluent.

I have told nobody they are wrong for using a Rod, I've simply expressed what I think, and have reached out and asked people to prove me wrong. I don't think I'm committing debate crimes here, to be honest. You either have something to add or you don't.

Oh I am very much trying to keep the conversion on topic as well. Its not as if the people vouching for rods here have simply never bothered to learn to use a card just as you've stated on rods about yourself. Still, given my own experience and how useful I've found my preferred weapon personally and how little use I find in yours I can't help but wonder if perhaps a lack of experience was contributing to your thoughts on the weapon. I suppose everyone has their preferences.

You can't say that you've never told someone they are wrong for using this weapon however. I mean dude, you said in your first post "Rods are absolutely pointless, they serve close to zero purpose in the face of their ranged counter-part, and their use potential is far and away exceeded by Cards in several non-trivial ways". How is that not not telling someone they are wrong for using a rod? I realize it serves your purpose by inviting people to counter that, but acting as if you've never said such a thing is a contradiction.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 03:42 PM

That's because I've had an onslaught of the troll patrol mob getting on my case about how I'm so mean and use strong words I've had to deflect. I've been reading every single response. To say I've been "proved wrong" is a glorious over statement.

Most of the Rod users have expressed a bitterness in the face of the Cards usability, which I find to be simply a lack of knowledge of how to use the weapon properly. RocSage mentioned earlier that the card has a different learning curve than the Rod. I'm inclined to agree here, the Rod is simpler to use. It's more straight forward. A bit more T-ATT doesn't justify the loss of the Cards utility, in my eyes however.

I think Cards are insanely useful, and it's hard to justify using Rods in normal areas
It's just that, Rod + Gunslash is a lot better for damage against bosses. The only exception should be Volcano bosses, but even then, Rod gets good mileage with Grants against Vol Dragon. For Kyatadoran though, I can't see any reason to use something other than Card Rabartas...

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 03:44 PM

To say I've been "proved wrong" is a glorious over statement.

To be honest, since one of the major factors in this kind of discussion is personal preference, then I would say it would be impossible to be proven right or wrong. Also, please don't take this as anything directed just at you, this is directed to anyone in this thread, it is a subjective discussion, and that by itself means that there can be no right or wrong answer.
Zipzo could come up with lots of reasons why the talis is better, and I could come up with the exact same reasons why the talis is worse. The same could be true with anything to do with the rod.
So opinions are just that, Zipzo isn't wrong for thinking your opinion is not the way to go, anyone else also shouldn't feel threatened or offended if others find your opinion to not be the way to go.
On the other hand, I do also feel that some replies were a bit harsh, like everyone here immediately goes into troll/insult mode (OP included).

For Kyatadoran though, I can't see any reason to use something other than Card Rabartas...

I tend to rod+barta. It does a nice amount of damage. But I would be more tempted to try gibarta, since the damage output is greater. But again, that would be my preference.

Gardios

Jul 28, 2012, 03:49 PM

I personally just don't need the range the cards offer which is the biggest advantage of talis weapons.

For Kyatadoran though, I can't see any reason to use something other than Card Rabartas...
Stay inside Catardran, laugh as he whiffs every attack without you even doing anything. The only thing that hits you is his spin, which you can either eat in the face and just heal up of Mirage Escape through it.

Zipzo

Jul 28, 2012, 03:49 PM

Oh I am very much trying to keep the conversion on topic as well. Its not as if the people vouching for rods here have simply never bothered to learn to use a card just as you've stated on rods about yourself. Still, given my own experience and how useful I've found my preferred weapon personally and how little use I find in yours I can't help but wonder if perhaps a lack of experience was contributing to your thoughts on the weapon. I suppose everyone has their preferences.

You can't say that you've never told someone they are wrong for using this weapon however. I mean dude, you said in your first post "Rods are absolutely pointless, they serve close to zero purpose in the face of their ranged counter-part, and their use potential is far and away exceeded by Cards in several non-trivial ways". How is that not not telling someone they are wrong for using a rod? I realize it serves your purpose by inviting people to counter that, but acting as if you've never said such a thing is a contradiction.I've completely expressed that I find Rods to be useless in the face of Cards. I understand the advantages of Rods just fine. I do not find the advantages to be enough in my experience. I'm not just being a blow-hard. What is so wrong with voicing my opinion? If anything, I prefer the inclination to defend their styles of play, it makes for much more interesting discussion than if I were to say something like...

"Hey guys! I only use cards because I think they're so awesome! I know a bunch of you think Rods are awesome though and that's cool too! Why are they so awesome?"

No. In voicing all the reasons I only use cards, it's inevitably going to be interpreted how I feel about Rods, which is that I find them useless. No matter how gleefully I try to hide it.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 03:51 PM

Stay inside Catardran, laugh as he whiffs every attack without you even doing anything. The only thing that hits you is his spin, which you can either eat in the face and just heal up of Mirage Escape through it.

It is normally rather easy to tell when the spin is coming. Depending on how much fun I am out for, I either try to jump, or go outside of the attack range. But this is one of the very few times that I do go away from the centre willingly.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 04:05 PM

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 04:07 PM

And I still remain completely unconvinced that the advantages of the talis are even worth noting in the first place.

Most technics have a strong range all on their own. The talis's advantage is only with a small handful of technics (gifoie, gibarta, rabarta, razonde, gigrants), and those are all technics that I very rarely ever use specifically because their range is just not that great. I have no problem clearing rooms with gizonde and only gizonde - a talis confers no advantages to gizonde spam, so naturally I never use one. And obviously, when fighting bosses, it is always optimal to weak point spam pin point precision attacks like rafoie and grants, which, with their massive range, make the advantages of a talis moot.

Still not seeing it.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 04:10 PM

a talis confers no advantages to gizonde spam

This is where you're wrong. Gizonde only has so much range when cast with a rod. Card increases this range and enables you to hit more enemies much easier. It is also common for terrain to block gizonde's chain lightning effect. Card can overcome this fault.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 04:12 PM

Card is OP as fuck. Every spell benefits so much from it. On top of that, Force's effective range is increased by a plethora of ways with the use of card. Rod is just there if you suck at using cards.

Please, don't pass off opinion as fact in such a way. Especially since you didn't take other people's preferences into account.

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 04:13 PM

This is where you're wrong. Gizonde only has so much range when cast with a rod. Card increases this range and enables you to hit more enemies much easier.I see. I am rarely, if ever, that far out, however, and the next point...

It is also common for terrain to block gizonde's chain lightning effect. Card can overcome this fault.
Makes absolutely no sense. A barrier that blocked gizonde from a rod is still going to block gizonde from a talis. You may need to elaborate on this one.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 04:21 PM

Please, don't pass off opinion as fact in such a way. Especially since you didn't take other people's preferences into account.

Don't tell me what to do.

Makes absolutely no sense. A barrier that blocked gizonde from a rod is still going to block gizonde from a talis. You may need to elaborate on this one.

Talis gives attack angles that rod cannot. Gizonde getting blocked by ground-level terrain can be overcome by throwing Talis above that terrain and it will act like a gizonde being cast from above, letting gizonde hit everything but terrain. Throughout my Force career, gizonde with talis has a much better hit rate than gizonde with rod.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 04:25 PM

Don't tell me what to do.

That was actually a request. But oh well.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 04:26 PM

If you jump and throw the Talis directly into the center of a group of enemies it is pretty much guaranteed to chain Gizonde due to slightly elevated height and not coming directly from you. I prefer Talis for pretty much every Desert Bot enemy because of this.

The same can be said for the rod too. Jump just before you release gizonde and you'll hit them all. I've never personally found a situation where this didn't happen.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 04:28 PM

Gizonde getting blocked by ground-level terrain can be overcome by throwing Talis above that terrain and it will act like a gizonde being cast from above, letting gizonde hit everything but terrain.

If there isn't at least one enemy in your line of sight, you shouldn't be using Gizonde in the first place.

Card is OP as fuck. Every spell benefits so much from it. On top of that, Force's effective range is increased by a plethora of ways with the use of card. Rod is just there if you suck at using cards.
Rod is OP as fuck. Every spell benefits so much from it. Card is just there if you suck at playing the game.

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 04:41 PM

Really, though, all of this is pointless because my experience tells me to stick with a rod. Prod with the rod. And so forth. Apparently your experiences tell you otherwise; that's fair enough, not like I can suddenly give you some striking new insight that makes all your prior experiences look like a collective hoax.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 06:49 PM

If there isn't at least one enemy in your line of sight, you shouldn't be using Gizonde in the first place.

Card allows you to hit enemies out of your line of sight.

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 07:00 PM

And the number of situations where that is actually of use is...?

Seriously, you can outline any number of specific scenarios where cards are more useful than rods, but in actual practice I find that these situations rarely, if ever, come up, and working around them with a rod never requires me to go so far out of my way that I lose time compared to someone who has to stand in place to throw out a card and then cast.

All of this is pointless anyway until we have some way to empirically measure the efficiency of someone running entirely with a rod vs. a talis, and even then it's entirely pointless because you can just use both. The differences between the two are not nearly as large as some people in this thread are making them out to be - they are very closely equivalent in every way that matters, and unless you can somehow back up your claim that one or the other is vastly superior to the other we'll just be talking over each other endlessly.

Kondibon

Jul 28, 2012, 07:01 PM

Anyway, in reality any discussion is useless unless people here actually TRY using stuff that other's share. Which I highly doubt anyone will.
I did. I tried throwing a talis to hit Vol dragon's back spike. Do I get a cookie?

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 07:02 PM

Card allows you to hit enemies out of your line of sight.

Its ok, UnLucky, there's nothing wrong with being both a bad troll and bad at the game.

You got me, I'm so bad at PSO2 that I never run into the situation where I'll "see" five or more robots but be unable to target a single one of them, even by jumping or slight positioning, due to massive terrain obstacles.

Like okay, sure, you can shoot over gaps or longer distances with a card inbetween. But rocks and corners? Charge and move with a rod for best results.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 07:05 PM

Card allows you to hit enemies out of your line of sight.

Rods allow you to get enemies to flinch, but unfortunately, saying what the weapon allows you to do is far from giving you a really good reason to use it.
Things like extended range and casting around corners happen to me very rarely. There have been very few times where I have needed the extra range of a talis or the times that taking the extra second to walk a bit further has brought all the monsters around the corner into my line of sight.
Of course this is all situational, and the times that you are stating that you need the talis for happen rarely to me. So most of the time I am in the situation where both the rod and the talis work just as well. Other people may find their situations differ though.

All of this is pointless anyway until we have some way to empirically measure the efficiency of someone running entirely with a rod vs. a talis, and even then it's entirely pointless because you can just use both. The differences between the two are not nearly as large as some people in this thread are making them out to be - they are very closely equivalent in every way that matters, and unless you can somehow back up your claim that one or the other is vastly superior to the other we'll just be talking over each other endlessly.

Well I can say for sure one situation where I found the talis a much better option, the snow pather boss (the pair you fight at the end of the free field tundra). Because of the speed, it was hard to get in close. Of course, you could switch between the gunslash and the rod, but if you were attacked while you had the gunslash out then you would only step, not mirage escape. This is obviously my opinion though.

Geistritter

Jul 28, 2012, 07:08 PM

They're both good in certain situations. The constant advocating for one weapon and only one weapon is completely ridiculous when you're capable of using whatever you want to suit the situation. The only class that can even come close to justifying this is Hunter, and even with one gear they shouldn't only be using one weapon always.

Kirukia

Jul 28, 2012, 07:09 PM

Depends on the situation and what I'm fighting. Neither are so awful that they are unusable so just use whichever you prefer. I don't see the point of a min/maxing debate since it's entirely situational and you can easily swap between the two.

EDIT: Basically the post above me.

UnLucky

Jul 28, 2012, 07:27 PM

I'd love to use the Talis exclusively, but they're gimp.

And you can't realistically "just use both" because of how expensive it is to upgrade a good rare.

Grinding a rod gets you more out of it because it's a percentage increase. Then are you going to whip out a crap talis for the extra range every so often? Or are you going to spend millions to get a good talis that's 100 T-Atk shy of the equivalent rod?

Please, soloing the Talis Training COs is noticeably slower with up to date equipment, even without the need to close gaps in order to AoE since you need to cast more of them.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 07:31 PM

Almost every other fight in Mines involves a wall or box obstructing the battlefield and Zonde spells have lots of trouble with that. Zonde itself cannot be aimed through terrain and card remedy's this fault. There a plenty of enemies who's weaknesses can be exploited by getting angles with Foie that Rod or Rafoie cannot. The same can be said with Barta, notably allowing bartas to hit Dragon's horns and Caterdrans in a safe and consistent fashion. Gifoie, Razonde and Rabarta go from decent spells on Rod to being extremely potent with card(most notably razonde being stronger and greater range than gizonde for a lower PPcost). Popping heals or buffs is better and easier since they have the convenience of range.

Ultimately, card brings out Force's full AoE potential; something that Rod cannot do.

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 07:42 PM

Almost every other fight in Mines involves a wall or box obstructing the battlefield and Zonde spells have lots of trouble with that. Zonde itself cannot be aimed through terrain and card remedy's this fault.
Yeah, no, I call BS on this. I steamroll through mines with my rod just fine, and the number of times where I actually run into a situation where an obstruction stopped my techs from being effective is extremely small. You can invent a perfect scenario, doesn't mean it actually happens.

There a plenty of enemies who's weaknesses can be exploited by getting angles with Foie that Rod or Rafoie cannot.
You say that, and then provide no examples. Um. :-?

The same can be said with Barta, notably allowing bartas to hit Dragon's horns and Caterdrans in a safe and consistent fashion.For the former, maybe. Forces have major issues fighting against the Vol Dragon either way.

For the latter? You cannot stay at range against the caterdran unless you like seeing them burrow into the ground over and over and over again, so talis is inherently inferior against it unless you have the advantage of someone to take its attention, in which case rod is superior anyways since their attention is elsewhere.

Gifoie, Razonde and Rabarta go from decent spells on Rod to being extremely potent with card(most notably razonde being stronger and greater range than gizonde for a lower PPcost). Popping heals or buffs is better and easier since they have the convenience of range.

Ultimately, card brings out Force's full AoE potential; something that Rod cannot do.
That's nice, but the situations where the "full AoE potential" actually translates into vastly improved results are both extremely specific and uncommon to boot. Even if it is vastly superior in those specific situations, it's still going to hit less hard in all of the other, more straightforward situations.

[spoiler-box]I'd love to use the Talis exclusively, but they're gimp.

And you can't realistically "just use both" because of how expensive it is to upgrade a good rare.

Grinding a rod gets you more out of it because it's a percentage increase. Then are you going to whip out a crap talis for the extra range every so often? Or are you going to spend millions to get a good talis that's 100 T-Atk shy of the equivalent rod?

Please, soloing the Talis Training COs is noticeably slower with up to date equipment, even without the need to close gaps in order to AoE since you need to cast more of them.[/spoiler-box]
This, on the other hand, is kind of weak.

I mean, come on, really - getting a 5-star talis with ragne soul and tech II is dirt-cheap, getting it to +10 is equally dirt-cheap, there's pretty much no reason not to at least have one.

And you don't need rares. They're pretty much there to look nice and to sink billions of meseta out of the economy. If you absolutely refuse to wield common or uncommon weapons, that is entirely on you.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 07:43 PM

Almost every other fight in Mines involves a wall or box obstructing the battlefield and Zonde spells have lots of trouble with that. Zonde itself cannot be aimed through terrain and card remedy's this fault.

I never found that, I've always managed to wipe out lots using gizonde from the rod and hardly ever had to reposition.

There a plenty of enemies who's weaknesses can be exploited by getting angles with Foie that Rod or Rafoie cannot. The same can be said with Barta, notably allowing bartas to hit Dragon's horns and Caterdrans in a safe and consistent fashion.

You have the time to get things out on the catadoran with how often it moves? I have always been a lot more potent using barta, or if you really care about safety that much, sazonde/zonde combo. Just lock on and not care about getting angles anymore. For the dragon, grants/zonde on the horn if you don't mind the slightly reduced damage. But still, I find a lot of the fun is in the danger.

Gifoie, Razonde and Rabarta go from decent spells on Rod to being extremely potent with card(most notably razonde being stronger and greater range than gizonde for a lower PPcost). Popping heals or buffs is better and easier since they have the convenience of range.

Ultimately, card brings out Force's full AoE potential; something that Rod cannot do.

Well, I use gifoie and rabarta a lot with the rod, but then again, I find that you can't always keep yourself at a massive distance away from monsters.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 08:16 PM

Yeah, no, I call BS on this. I steamroll through mines with my rod just fine, and the number of times where I actually run into a situation where an obstruction stopped my techs from being effective is extremely small. You can invent a perfect scenario, doesn't mean it actually happens.

There are countless times at Mines where I'm fighting enemies in an obstructed area(mostly boxes). It's those times where I'm 100% safe casting spells[zonde] through walls. There are also plenty of times I've cast gizonde with Rod and seen the lightning miss with no number above the enemy because of terrain or lack of range. For the record, I don't even use gizonde most of the time in mines because razonde is stronger and has greater range(with card).

You say that, and then provide no examples. Um. :-?

Jesus its almost as if none of you actually play this game. If a Kartagot is facing you, you can throw a card through its face, and have Foies come from it's behind to hit the weak point. Same thing can be done with pretty much every tundra or darker enemy. Rod needs to get the correct angle in these situations but card can create that angle instead.

For the former, maybe. Forces have major issues fighting against the Vol Dragon either way.

For the latter? You cannot stay at range against the caterdran unless you like seeing them burrow into the ground over and over and over again, so talis is inherently inferior against it unless you have the advantage of someone to take its attention, in which case rod is superior anyways since their attention is elsewhere.

Disagree. Card makes both these fights so much easier and safer. With or without aggro, using Rod puts you in a dangerous position.

That's nice, but the situations where the "full AoE potential" actually translates into vastly improved results are both extremely specific and uncommon to boot. Even if it is vastly superior in those specific situations, it's still going to hit less hard in all of the other, more straightforward situations.

It's up to you as a player to create these openings and bring the functionality of card to it's full potential. To you they may be "extremely situational" but these are common card functions to me. EX: Healing and buffing allies; not situational at all.

Kondibon

Jul 28, 2012, 08:23 PM

Gardios

Jul 28, 2012, 08:30 PM

...against Darkers, I just lock onto the weak point and spam Grants/Gigrants. The only other enemy where cards would be useful to hit weak points with would be De Marmos, but that's it.

Zyrusticae

Jul 28, 2012, 08:33 PM

...against Darkers, I just lock onto the weak point and spam Grants/Gigrants. The only other enemy where cards would be useful to hit weak points with would be De Marmos, but that's it.

And even then, De Marmos can be dealt with very easily by jumping on their backs and shooting the hump directly.

Ana-Chan

Jul 28, 2012, 08:50 PM

Jesus its almost as if none of you actually play this game. If a Kartagot is facing you, you can throw a card through its face, and have Foies come from it's behind to hit the weak point. Same thing can be done with pretty much every tundra or darker enemy. Rod needs to get the correct angle in these situations but card can create that angle instead.

Tab -> grants usually works just as well for a lot of darker (or a nice gigrants into a large group), there are a couple of notable exceptions to this though. The one with the big shield (forgot the name of it now) it usually needs a direct strike from gizonde from behind to hit the weakpoint, it also doesn't have a unique lock point. Well, I tend to lock onto the body and gizonde spam regardless.
Kartagot is also problematic at times, but since they are normally near other darkers, I like to jump on their back and use gigrants for more damage.
Dark Ragne, well, enough said. Normally jump from the side and try to get the lock that way, once you have it then grants, or if you can't quite get it, find somewhere close and rafoie.
Almost forgot, the gwanarda. The weakpoint only shows up after you have caused enough damage to the tentacles.

For the tundra, the two major enemies with weakpoints on the back (not including the darker since they have been covered above) are the yedi/king yedi and the mammoth/de mammoth. I generally run behind the yedi and then gifoie spam. That keeps them stunned long enough to finish them off without any problems. Finally the mammoths, well, either third person view and foie, jump up next to it and gifoie or jump on its back and foie.

*Edit* removed the last bit. That did sound rather ignorant and me being too full of myself.

FenixStryk

Jul 28, 2012, 09:14 PM

In the time it takes to perfectly position a Talis Razonde twice to cast it eight times (because you sure as hell won't get more than four per card), a Rod user would have already dumped all of their PP on more than 8 Gizondes and be a few seconds into the PP regeneration portion of their damage rotation, for more damage, and for more reliable coverage.

All Gizonde needs is a single enemy to serve as a conduit. You don't need to throw your card up, you don't need to make sure everything's near that card, you don't need to use TPS Mode. All you have to do is walk up and throw chain lightning at something and the Rod takes care of the rest. By the way, that Rod Gizonde? It will do more damage than your Talis Razonde for less effort.

So you can hide behind a box with your Talis? Big whoop! Half the shit in Mines can't hit you even if you're standing right in front of them, and the ones that can sure as hell can't hit you if you're standing on top of a box. Line of Sight as a Pro for Talis is a weak one, far dwarfed by the raw damage output that is exclusive to Rods.

I love Talises. They're fun to use and cut out almost all of the weapon-switching Rod/Gunslash FOs have to deal with. If they weren't 15% weaker than Rods, maybe I'd still use them... but that's not the case. They're too weak for the benefits they provide. At most, I'll whip my +10 5* Talis out if I need to Resta a teammate on the other side of a boss, or if I want to kill the tentacles that spawn en masse when an Antlion uses his vortex attack, or if want to save two seconds on a Kartagot. For every other situation, a Rod is the better weapon.

The difference between a Rod and a Talis, is bigger than the difference between a Newearl and a Cast. Sit on that for a while before you get back.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 28, 2012, 09:21 PM

Why are people calling them Kartagot
It's clearly a Cal-Table

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 09:27 PM

Most, if not, all Talis complaints come in the form of "effort" which means it's clear that no one here knows how to use Talis effectively so of course most of you would favor rod. It's also a fact that no one cares about functionality and cares about #1 DPS so that's another blatant reason rod is more popular(common fact is that typical americans don't care about team play). It's another fact that Force is the only class that isn't solely about damage, but about support as well and Talis lets you do this more effectively than Rod.

In the time it takes to perfectly position a Talis Razonde twice to cast it eight times (because you sure as hell won't get more than four per card), a Rod user would have already dumped all of their PP on more than 8 Gizondes and be a few seconds into the PP regeneration portion of their damage rotation, for more damage, and for more reliable coverage.

Gizonde costs more than razonde. Razonde also has more range than gizonde. I don't see how you think gizonde has more "reliable" range than razonde when it gets owned by terrain.

The difference between a Rod and a Talis, is bigger than the difference between a Newearl and a Cast. Sit on that for a while before you get back.

And the differences aren't that great this time around. You make it sound like such a big number when it's not. But I understand, you want bigger numbers since you don't know any better.

Gardios

Jul 28, 2012, 09:42 PM

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 09:53 PM

FOnewearl (110%) and FOcast (96%) have a T-ATK difference of 50 points at Lv 40 which actually is a lot. You can get away with the stats as a Ranger and Hunter (highest difference are 3% and 5% respectively), but not as a Force.

50 is a lot in comparison, but by no means is it to the point where it's unbalanced(gameplay-wise).

FenixStryk

Jul 28, 2012, 09:55 PM

Most, if not, all Talis complaints come in the form of "effort" which means it's clear that no one here knows how to use Talis effectively so of course most of you would favor rod. It's also a fact that no one cares about functionality and cares about #1 DPS so that's another blatant reason rod is more popular (common fact is that typical Americans don't care about team play). It's another fact that Force is the only class that isn't solely about damage, but about support as well and Talis lets you do this more effectively than Rod.This paragraph is so laughable that I can't tell if you're trying to troll Rod users. Using a Rod for damage somehow makes you worse at support? Am I weapon-locked? No, I'm not, and no Force is; in fact, we all have six weapon slots! Even if I put a Rod in four of those slots, I could comfortably snuggle a Gunslash and a Talis in the other two. It seems the concept of switching weapons is beyond you...

Gizonde costs more than razonde. Razonde also has more range than gizonde. I don't see how you think gizonde has more "reliable" range than razonde when it gets owned by terrain.Wow! 2 PP! What a difference! I'm sure that all these flat hallways are going to make me miss and put all that extra PP to waste, even though I have >100 more Weapon TATK and a guaranteed AoE that clears rooms if I can hit a single target with auto-lock-on. Walking those extra five steps to get into Gizonde range is surely an err on my part.

Spare me, please. If you are attacking, you should be maximizing your damage. Being the best at one part of your job doesn't somehow make you worse at the other aspects.

Gardios

Jul 28, 2012, 09:58 PM

50 is a lot in comparison, but by no means is it to the point where it's unbalanced(gameplay-wise).

The number alone doesn't mean much, yeah, but I fear those few points will be important for the T-ATK requirement of future weapons - especially because the difference will only grow with the increased level cap. Makes me regret making a Mar over a Newearl as a Force main since even those two classes have a 10% difference already... =/

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 10:00 PM

This paragraph is so laughable that I can't tell if you're trying to troll Rod users. Using a Rod for damage somehow makes you worse at support? Am I weapon-locked? No, I'm not, and no Force is; in fact, we all have six weapon slots! Even if I put a Rod in four of those slots, I could comfortable snuggle a Gunslash and a Talis in the other two. It seems the concept of switching weapons is beyond you...

Wow! 2 PP! What a difference! I'm sure that all these flat hallways are going to make me miss and put all that extra PP to waste, even though I have >100 more Weapon TATK and a guaranteed AoE that clears rooms if I can hit a single target with auto-lock-on. Walking those extra five steps to get into Gizonde range is surely an err on my part.

Spare me, please. If you are attacking, you should be maximizing your damage. Being the best at one part of your job doesn't somehow make you worse at the other aspects.

First of, I never said you CAN'T switch weapons, so you're just jumping to conclusions for the sake of jumping to conclusions. Second, 2 PP is a big deal for Forces and can eventually add up to an extra spell or two(in conjunction with Charge PP rev)depending on your max PP pool.

But like I said before, I get it and I get you: all you care about is the biggest number that comes out and that's understandable. However, I can't help but laugh at you think that it sounds like you're somehow butthurt about all this discussion.

Dinosaur

Jul 28, 2012, 10:03 PM

The number alone doesn't mean much, yeah, but I fear those few points will be important for the T-ATK requirement of future weapons - especially because the difference will only grow with the increased level cap. Makes me regret making a Mar over a Newearl as a Force main since even those two classes have a 10% difference already... =/

Off-topic: I'm sure you know this but you may need to get the T-atk Up spec as Mar in order to meet weapon reqs. I suppose it just depends on your MAG build.

sibladeko

Jul 28, 2012, 10:28 PM

First of, I never said you CAN'T switch weapons, so you're just jumping to conclusions for the sake of jumping to conclusions.

I like how you admit this, and then proceed to completely ignore the actual point of his statement.
THE FACT HE CAN SWITCH TO TALIS, WHEN HE WANTS TO DO SUPPORT, MAKES THE ARGUMENT THAT HE SUFFERS IN THE SUPPORT DEPARTMENT WHEN USING ROD COMPLETELY USELESS.
BECAUSE HE WOULDN'T BE USING IT THEN.

But way to admit the first part and then completely gloss over the actual reason he pointed it out.

Jakosifer

Jul 28, 2012, 10:30 PM

sibladeko

Jul 28, 2012, 10:44 PM

Because inflexibility and artificial handicaps is viewed as "skill."
God forbid I use a hammer to pull out a nail instead of a plastic ruler.
Now excuse me, I have to finish up my Gunslash only hard boss rush vid. :V

mctastee

Jul 28, 2012, 11:43 PM

I bolded questionable mentions. This thread isn't about "style", it's about optimal play.

The funniest part about this comment is that this game does not require optimal play. You can get by just fine playing however you please. I play a hunter and it's pretty obvious that using sword with sword gear puts out the best damage, but I refuse to use the sword because it feels so sluggish in comparison to the partisan and wire partisan.

I suppose some people don't have any fun unless they are playing optimally(?). As for me, I will always the quick attacks of the partisan and wire partisan over the optimal damage over the sword with sword gear. Of course, I am a really easy going player who always plays in a way that allows me to enjoy myself.

NoiseHERO

Jul 28, 2012, 11:47 PM

For general damage, Rods.
For support, Cards.

Idk what the big deal is, not like either of them take any skill to use, so I especially don't see why Talis mainers are on such a high horse. Or feel the need to be defensive. This thread was doomed from the get go, and any real discussion about the merits of weapon types certainly won't be done on this board and with this "community". Which has been trash since the PSU days when I arrived here.

Edit: Nevermind that a Force with any real "skill" knows how to use both anyway.

+

The funniest part about this comment is that this game does not require optimal play. You can get by just fine playing however you please. I play a hunter and it's pretty obvious that using sword with sword gear puts out the best damage, but I refuse to use the sword because it feels so sluggish in comparison to the partisan and wire partisan.

I suppose some people don't have any fun unless they are playing optimally(?). As for me, I will always the quick attacks of the partisan and wire partisan over the optimal damage over the sword with sword gear. Of course, I am a really easy going player who always plays in a way that allows me to enjoy myself.

/Thread

CHESTOOO!!!

Zipzo

Jul 29, 2012, 12:19 AM

Most, if not, all Talis complaints come in the form of "effort" which means it's clear that no one here knows how to use Talis effectively so of course most of you would favor rod. It's also a fact that no one cares about functionality and cares about #1 DPS so that's another blatant reason rod is more popular(common fact is that typical americans don't care about team play). It's another fact that Force is the only class that isn't solely about damage, but about support as well and Talis lets you do this more effectively than Rod.

Gizonde costs more than razonde. Razonde also has more range than gizonde. I don't see how you think gizonde has more "reliable" range than razonde when it gets owned by terrain.

And the differences aren't that great this time around. You make it sound like such a big number when it's not. But I understand, you want bigger numbers since you don't know any better.
Sums up my argument nicely.

The statement of Rods having a higher digit on them of the same tier in the T-ATT section is a valid mention, but it doesn't win the argument. It's all practical, cards give you a flexibility in combat that just puts Rods to shame, and for any Rod user to deny this seems like blatant inexperience with the weapon itself (this doesn't mean that you tried a card once and couldn't get the hang of it enough to use it as efficiently as you do a Rod and that was enough for you).

The mindset of "People can take care of themselves". You know what I have to say to that? Stop playing MMO's. Whenever someone has a wipe fest on a boss in any game? You're part of the reason that happens in the virtual world.

Zyrusticae

Jul 29, 2012, 12:38 AM

Sums up my argument nicely.

The statement of Rods having a higher digit on them of the same tier in the T-ATT section is a valid mention, but it doesn't win the argument. It's all practical, cards give you a flexibility in combat that just puts Rods to shame, and for any Rod user to deny this seems like blatant inexperience with the weapon itself (this doesn't mean that you tried a card once and couldn't get the hang of it enough to use it as efficiently as you do a Rod and that was enough for you).
And my argument is that said flexibility simply does not make anywhere near enough of a difference for me to put down my rod, or at least put down my rod for more than a small handful of enemies.

Again, the situations where a talis is optimal are too small and narrow to allow it to blatantly overtake the rod in usefulness. You can overstate the "flexibility" all you want, actual combat experience still does not jive with that assertion.

(And I am one of the, unfortunately, rare forces who heals and buffs teammates whenever necessary, so that last bit doesn't apply to me.)

GoldenFalcon

Jul 29, 2012, 01:00 AM

Dinosaur

Jul 29, 2012, 01:51 AM

THE FACT HE CAN SWITCH TO TALIS, WHEN HE WANTS TO DO SUPPORT, MAKES THE ARGUMENT THAT HE SUFFERS IN THE SUPPORT DEPARTMENT WHEN USING ROD COMPLETELY USELESS.
BECAUSE HE WOULDN'T BE USING IT THEN.

If you looked at the title of the thread, it is called "Rod vs Card." That IS the premise of the topic. On the other hand, I have no clue what your deal is.

Asakust

Jul 29, 2012, 02:34 AM

I like the concept of the whole casting from Talis thing.

I just never throw the damn thing because I never feel the need to. . . Which means it just sits in my hand. . .

So I just use Rods instead.

Arkhanno

Jul 29, 2012, 02:42 AM

I'm kinda new to these forums, and kinda new to the game (I'm only a level 20 Force), but that aside I'd like to throw my thoughts into this thread.

I use a Rod with Gunslash as back-up for two reasons: I don't like the lower damage on the Talis and I don't like the huge recovery on the Talis. Because of these two reasons I only use the Talis for Talis-based Client Orders.

So let me explain my reasoning behind this. With a Rod I can do more damage faster. More damage = Enemies die faster = Party can move onto the next group faster. If I'm low on PP then I'll just pull out that Gunslash and fire off a few shots. If my party needs heals I'm usually not that far off from them. Lastly, I usually buff (Read as: Shifta) inbetween groups of enemies. So with a Rod I can buff, heal, and attack when necessary.

Now, I don't have Gigrants yet so I can't say that the Talis is useless to me because of the way I play (Close enough to the action to heal/buff, but far enough away to dodge when needed) but I haven't seen a need for the Talis' extra range. I'm always targeting my opponent's weak point, or if it doesn't have one just targeting it in general. So far I haven't found a need to equip a Talis at all. The Rod, and proper positioning, does everything that the Talis does and more.

Dammy

Jul 29, 2012, 02:56 AM

And you can't realistically "just use both" because of how expensive it is to upgrade a good rare.

you can

UnLucky

Jul 29, 2012, 03:10 AM

you can

:V

sure, keep two uncommon +10s

but which 9* are you going to try for at endgame?

Yuugi The Strong

Jul 29, 2012, 03:14 AM

Rod is better for reactive play, which some people might prefer. Rod is also better for bigger numbers, with other other people might prefer
Personally, the only reason I use Rod is because it just feels right casting things like Barta or targeted spells from it

But, since spells like Rabarta and Gigrants are so much more effective in the majority of combat situations, it's easy to use Card for a whole mission and not miss Rod. Although, it's still always an issue predicting where people are going to go in the next 2-3 seconds for a thrown Resta or Shifta (where Rod can just chase them)

For the most part, because I find the first half of your post to be far more important, I would disagree. I've started training my Ranger a few days ago after hitting the cap on my Hunter and, most importantly, my Force, and if we were to limit the comparison of both weapons to "versus bosses only," my answer would be this--regardless of whether you solo or not, both the weapons play out too differently to accurately say "THIS IS BETTER, YOUR ARGUMENT SUCKS BECAUSE I'M RIGHT" (though obviously not like that).

I mentioned my Hunter and Ranger for good reason, even though this concerns Force and their class-exclusive weapons. Admittedly, Hunters and Rangers feel like they have a disturbingly higher output when compared to Force, provided you're using "similar gear." I would go as far as to say that, if you were to care about doing damage, go ahead and use the Rod. But in a party, the difference in damage between the best +10 Talis and Rod with the best affixes is negligible. This is important, because NOW it depends on the playstyle and the boss in question. Bosses like Gwanada and Transmizer, from my experience, are notably easier with the Talis. But then it comes to Vol Dragon or even the Snow duo, and I would argue that Rod is infinitely easier. And this is all while disregarding the Gunslash, if that info matters at all.

Personally, I'm all for Talis, even though you'll see me using the Rod the whole time due to not caring in the slightest about the differences. I DO know how to use the Talis, but honestly? I don't like the part that says "Ranged Resta/Anti/Shifta/Deband faieojgiojw" because frankly, it's NOT that great. For the most part, I can't ever find the proper time to use it without making the fight longer, with the exception being Shifta. And even then, I'm getting ONE person with it, and it definitely doesn't feel like he's exceeding the damage that I missed out on dishing. In fact, it's usually easier to use a rod, strafe around the target to a teammate while casting damaging spells, and using Shifta on them when you're close enough.

Whoops, forgot to mention. Talis + GiGrants/RaBarta/etc. is great, I'll admit. But I honestly don't like using it on any of the bosses except for Gwanada, which usually gets locked in such an amazing pattern for us Forces that it's kind of pitiful for the poor antlion.

Dammy

Jul 29, 2012, 03:18 AM

:V

sure, keep two uncommon +10s

but which 9* are you going to try for at endgame?

i am using heart rod from caterdran and cards from dragon, both +10
when you have millions , spending some on grinding is okay
about use, it depends on situation, for Caterdran or Ragne i prefer rod, for Panther or Vader - cards

Saotome Kaneda

Jul 29, 2012, 05:20 AM

And the differences aren't that great this time around. You make it sound like such a big number when it's not. But I understand, you want bigger numbers since you don't know any better.

???????
Alva Obside +0 204 +10 326
vs
Alva Striker +0 242 +10 387

Alva Diffuse +0 233 +10 372
vs
Alva Folones +0 276 +10 441

Hard Quartz +0 221 +10 386
Duel Gaze +0 249 +10 435
Vishburn +0 258 +10 451

vs

Clarita Visas +0 247 +10 432
Stella Twinkle +0 281 +10 491
Bifrost +0 295 +10 516
Garland +0 305 +10 533

Dunno, a difference of even 50 T-atk is pretty noticable, both on attacking AND healing. Razonde and the other "immediate surroundings" techs were made for Talis, the "long range" Gizonde stuff I'm not sold on because nothing so far has made me so scared that I couldn't hop in the fray and use it with a rod, which also allows me to kill it in less casts, which also allows me to not have to worry about retaliation- which is one of the basic purposes of the Talis, am I correct?

For long range support you just hope that your team stays near where you toss the card long enough for you to not waste your PP for boosts/spot healing/etc, OR you could get in there and play battle medic and know that you're not totally wasting your PP(because you just used it on yourself instead of a group of zako!).

I've done my time with the Talis and it felt better as an overall weapon to me in the CBT, but that might be a placebo effect considering how limited we were in general back then.

Also as an FYI, Gizonde "misses" because unlike Razonde and Zonde it is NOT instant. If an enemy moves fast enough from the spot when you cast it will just dissipate, and this goes for every link in the chain, terrain or not.

As for the whole "People should take care of themselves" thing? There's a difference between leaving the team high and dry because I'm spitting hot fire at everything, and not going over to kiss the HU's little booboo to make it all better because he took 100 dmg and knows how to handle him/herself. You have a max of 5 moons to hold and every other class can hold 10 of each mate. it's just as important that others not learn to expect a crutch as it is to be there when they actually do need it. This game is not so hard that I need to be PSO1 style babysitter FO(as fun and lazy as THAT was).

Ana-Chan

Jul 29, 2012, 06:10 AM

Bosses like Gwanada and Transmizer, from my experience, are notably easier with the Talis. But then it comes to Vol Dragon or even the Snow duo, and I would argue that Rod is infinitely easier.

Although interestingly enough I have had different experiences there myself. I don't think the Gwanarda has anything which makes the talis more preferable. If you are not comfortable staying close then rafoie does some nice area damage, and rafoie in third person view was how I first figured out how to kill it without taking much damage.
Transmizer for me is in the case where it doesn't really mater what you use. The first time I fought against it was with the talis, but that had nothing to do with the boss itself. I was experimenting a little in that run, and I just didn't change. The second run I used the rod, and I found no real difference.
On the other hand, the Snow Panthers are problematic at close range, so I was using the talis to keep myself out of range a lot and allowing myself to recover pp fairly easily.
Finally the Vol Dragon, even though the movements are pretty predictable, it is always a pain to get in close. So lately I've been using the talis.

But this is different playing styles at work.

KrankItVZ

Jul 29, 2012, 06:34 AM

Ana-Chan

Jul 29, 2012, 06:37 AM

Didnt read everything but I just want to mention one thing. In games they will have classes/ weapons that are MORE suited towards a support style in a party. The slightly higher dmg but more vulnerable cards is because it is for attack stuff from afar and not targeted for a solo weapon

I'm sorry to say this though, but rods have higher T-Atk so when casting from a rod, attack techs do more. In fact, since support techs ignore the weapon T-Atk, (how would it even apply to shifta, deband and anti) then the talis T-Atk doesn't really matter.

jooozek

Jul 29, 2012, 06:46 AM

It's any action that makes you put your weapon back or sheaf it. It can help the battle but has it's con's too. It just depend's on the situation.

That's slow. Guess I'll be staying with rods.

UnLucky

Jul 29, 2012, 06:50 AM

Apparently Zipzo has some magical way to instantly retract the card that he's not sharing.

Fastest method I can see is switching to a [not Talis] and start the cast

Ana-Chan

Jul 29, 2012, 06:55 AM

There is also throwing the talis into the ground if you are in third person view. If you are trying to avoid the passive locking then this is normally where you are anyway. Anyway, if you throw the talis into the ground then you get another in your hand. It does this when the talis collides with scenery.

jooozek

Jul 29, 2012, 07:29 AM

Fastest method I can see is switching to a [not Talis] and start the cast
With the latency I get its slower even than unsheathing the weapon :-(

There is also throwing the talis into the ground if you are in third person view. If you are trying to avoid the passive locking then this is normally where you are anyway. Anyway, if you throw the talis into the ground then you get another in your hand. It does this when the talis collides with scenery.
That doesn't seem to work for me for most time, when I try to cast after doing this nothing happens.

jOhMG

Jul 29, 2012, 09:25 AM

I generally tend to use Talis over rods. The damage when I've compared the two isn't enough to make me want Rods over Talis. I love the fact that I can cast just about any skill from ANYWHERE. All it takes is practice. With a little aiming and proper timing nothing stands in your way. Along with doing this, I can focus entirely on the Offensive since I have quite a bit of distance from the enemy and this distance doesn't hurt from using support skills since the cards are rather easy to aim toward your party.
Taking the gunslash into perspective, I see that as useless. My Talis does 3xs the amount of damage as a bullet and I get just as much PP back albeit a bit slower. And if it's for physical attack... well I would rather just keep a Rod out that does almost as much damage as the blade and still gives me access to all of my skills and not the terrible gunslash PAs that do NO damage for me. I feel gunslash are a rather weak choice until they come up with a hybrid class and I don't see the need to carry 3 different weapons for my class when I can just have 1 or 2.
Face it. Your a force youre there to heal and deal massive magic damage not get physical and die. That being said it all comes down to style. Some people may excel with the Rod/Gunslash combo and not being able to do sheet with a Talis, while to others like myself the Talis just feels like the most natural choice when playing a Force.

jooozek

Jul 29, 2012, 09:32 AM

(...) Some people may excel with the Rod/Gunslash combo and not being able to do sheet with a Talis (...)

Explain how do you get the card back please if your way is that effective.

jOhMG

Jul 29, 2012, 09:58 AM

Explain how do you get the card back please if your way is that effective.

It's easy!
1. Just aim at the ground and boom your card is back.
2. Switch weapons
3. Use your dodge skill. At the end of it your card should be reset unless you were charging a skill
4. Wait the 1 second it takes to get the card back

OR!

Just learn how to use the cards properly. Learn how to aim them properly and get basic timing down. If you need a self cast(Resta/Anti.Shifta/Deband) all you need to do is use the card immediately after throwing it. The card stops moving as soon as you begin cast. So if you're quick enough you should still be in range.

Honestly, all it takes is a bit of practice.

OH AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST:
Don't lag.

Sp-24

Jul 29, 2012, 10:00 AM

You are always in range with a rod, though. And it's much easier to catch a teammate with yourself than with a card if you want to buff or heal somebody else, since people tend to move around.

jOhMG

Jul 29, 2012, 10:03 AM

You are always in range with a rod, though. And it's much easier to catch a teammate with yourself than with a card if you want to buff or heal somebody else, since people tend to move around.

Time and practice and this is still no problem. That's all it is. With a talis in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, there should be zero problems.

jooozek

Jul 29, 2012, 10:06 AM

It's easy!
1. Just aim at the ground and boom your card is back.
2. Switch weapons
3. Use your dodge skill. At the end of it your card should be reset unless you were charging a skill
4. Wait the 1 second it takes to get the card back

OR!

Just learn how to use the cards properly. Learn how to aim them properly and get basic timing down. If you need a self cast(Resta/Anti.Shifta/Deband) all you need to do is use the card immediately after throwing it. The card stops moving as soon as you begin cast. So if you're quick enough you should still be in range.

Honestly, all it takes is a bit of practice.

OH AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST:
Don't lag.

1. see my above post and remember that there is no need to use TPS for most time, just moving WSAD and using the mouse to turn the camera is all the aiming I need
2. slow and latency depended, inefficient
3. slow
4. slow

And about the "The card stops moving as soon as you begin cast." bit, there is a window where you can't cast after throwing it, you can't instantly start charging up/casting.

"Don't lag."
This made me a little sad because when I use my rod it doesn't matter if I lag or not :-(

Zyrusticae

Jul 29, 2012, 10:11 AM

Still don't care, too busy wiping down entire fields of enemies with impunity.

Maybe if I ever run into a situation that is actually stifling, I will come back to this thread and admit defeat.

Sp-24

Jul 29, 2012, 10:12 AM

GoldenFalcon

Jul 29, 2012, 10:16 AM

For the most part, lots and lots of stuff

That post wasn't about bosses. My post before that was about bosses xD

jOhMG

Jul 29, 2012, 10:17 AM

"Don't lag."
This made me a little sad because when I use my rod it doesn't matter if I lag or not :-(

I only added the last part as a joke, because whenever I get a spike it messes up my flow.
As for the CD from attack until actual cast that shouldn't matter to much. If you aren't in range then you can always take the 2 steps forward to get into range with the charge time.
As for the latency thing you'll run across the same problem if you try the Rod + Gun/ combo. That could also factor into why your cards dont reset when they hit the ground.

As I always say, to each their own. It's whatever you feel comfortable with and as long as it gets the job done noone else should care either.

jooozek

Jul 29, 2012, 10:23 AM

As for the latency thing you'll run across the same problem if you try the Rod + Gun/ combo. That could also factor into why your cards dont reset when they hit the ground.
Cards are the last thing I'd use for recharging, their range is pretty short. That said I generally sport only a rod because I'm always in melee for the AoE and if you are using the single target techniques and want to keep distance then the cards [if you want to recharge PP] won't reach the enemy anyway.

The only reason I still want to use cards is PSE bursts but that card recalling is gimped. Now you know why speed is important for me, everything there is just so fast that being unable to recall a card instantly to shakeoff enemies within your melee range is pretty annoying.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 29, 2012, 10:27 AM

Now you know why speed is important for me, everything there is just so fast that being unable to recall a card instantly to shakeoff enemies within your melee range is pretty annoying.

Best option in a case like this is to cast Rafoie on them, since having a deployed card doesn't change the targeting mechanic. And if you don't JA cast another Rafoie, the card disappears pretty fast after the tech, for you to start charging point blank spells

Zipzo

Jul 29, 2012, 03:10 PM

Cards are the last thing I'd use for recharging, their range is pretty short. That said I generally sport only a rod because I'm always in melee for the AoE and if you are using the single target techniques and want to keep distance then the cards [if you want to recharge PP] won't reach the enemy anyway.

The only reason I still want to use cards is PSE bursts but that card recalling is gimped. Now you know why speed is important for me, everything there is just so fast that being unable to recall a card instantly to shakeoff enemies within your melee range is pretty annoying.
Card recalling is not gimped.

I'm making a video of how quickly I can go from casting on a deployed card, to recalling it and casting in proximity.

I'm sure you'll all just be dumbfounded.

I generally tend to use Talis over rods. The damage when I've compared the two isn't enough to make me want Rods over Talis. I love the fact that I can cast just about any skill from ANYWHERE. All it takes is practice. With a little aiming and proper timing nothing stands in your way. Along with doing this, I can focus entirely on the Offensive since I have quite a bit of distance from the enemy and this distance doesn't hurt from using support skills since the cards are rather easy to aim toward your party.
Taking the gunslash into perspective, I see that as useless. My Talis does 3xs the amount of damage as a bullet and I get just as much PP back albeit a bit slower. And if it's for physical attack... well I would rather just keep a Rod out that does almost as much damage as the blade and still gives me access to all of my skills and not the terrible gunslash PAs that do NO damage for me. I feel gunslash are a rather weak choice until they come up with a hybrid class and I don't see the need to carry 3 different weapons for my class when I can just have 1 or 2.
Face it. Your a force youre there to heal and deal massive magic damage not get physical and die. That being said it all comes down to style. Some people may excel with the Rod/Gunslash combo and not being able to do sheet with a Talis, while to others like myself the Talis just feels like the most natural choice when playing a Force.Precisely this.

Coatl

Jul 29, 2012, 05:47 PM

This thread does not need seventeen pages of the same worn-out cookie-cutter arguements being tossed back and forth that were brought up in the first five pages..

It's obvious that the most optimal way to play is have both a rod and a talis to make up for when one of which would have a disadvantage in a certain situation.

Kondibon

Jul 29, 2012, 05:57 PM

Meh.

Talis and Rod are both easy as fuck to use (especially Talis, you can kite all day and do nothing else, "skill" or no skill), this game is easy, supporting is easy, albeit a bit more interesting in this game (though I don't do parties, at most I play with one other person and he doesn't get hit or need me to heal him anyway if he does, I Shifta us both, and we start wrecking shit).

This series has always favored offense as defense over defense being your actual best defense, so wanting the highest numbers is more logical. If you're playing with people who need seriously need a babysitter, tell them to not suck or pop a mate.

Killing faster in the majority of situations>throwing pretty sparkles and feeling like you're an accomplished and "skillful" player for learning the many, many intricate techniques involved in using and mastering a Talis.

There was never any "discussion" to be had here, just a bunch of train wreck tomfoolery as usual. No one will change their stance, "discussing" it is pointless, especially when most of it just boils down to bullet points, damage comparisons, and random situational shit that is just that: Situational shit.*giggles*

This thread does not need seventeen pages of the same worn-out cookie-cutter arguements being tossed back and forth that were brought up in the first five pages..

It's obvious that the most optimal way to play is have both a rod and a talis to make up for when one of which would have a disadvantage in a certain situation.
That's been said already too.

Sp-24

Jul 29, 2012, 06:04 PM

Kondibon

Jul 29, 2012, 06:15 PM

VIDEO (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2821736&postcount=28&highlight=video)
VIDEO (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2821751&postcount=37&highlight=video)
VIDEO (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2822925&postcount=167&highlight=video)

lol

Well let's not forget it took me like 4 days to bother uploading the Cap'n Rockbear vids. I'd honestly be really interested if there's a trick to it that doesn't involve me taking my eyes off the action.

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 01:06 AM

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 01:50 AM

In other news. Here's the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadtOXtkTZo

Saotome Kaneda

Jul 30, 2012, 02:10 AM

Welcome to the PSO-W forums! Enjoy your stay new guy!

In other news. Here's the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadtOXtkTZo&feature=youtu.be

you missed every negative point we were discussing

#1: using jump cancel makes you lose first cast JA bonus, which affects anything that uses T-ATK(hi resta)

#2: the card will disappear after about 3 seconds unless you JA and release your techs ASAP. You should get 4-5 casts off 1 card before it's gone. THIS IS IRREGARDLESS OF IF YOU DO YOUR LITTLE CIRCLE THING OR NOT. your "cancel" has nothing to do with what you are doing and everything to do with what you are not doing, which is charging a tech longer to maximize the card's active time

I seriously don't see how this proves any of your points, and your little "technique" isn't even related to what's going on. I could understand if you were casting like, 1 tech then did your little circle because that would be a groundbreaking emergency option, but you still cast enough within the card's active window then it disappeared before you even sheathed....

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:13 AM

you missed every negative point we were discussing

#1: using jump cancel makes you lose first cast JA bonus, which affects anything that uses T-ATK(hi resta)

#2: the card will disappear after about 3 seconds unless you JA and release your techs ASAP. You should get 4-5 casts off 1 card before it's gone. THIS IS IRREGARDLESS OF IF YOU DO YOUR LITTLE CIRCLE THING OR NOT. your "cancel" has nothing to do with what you are doing and everything to do with what you are not doing, which is charging a tech longer to maximize the card's active time

I seriously don't see how this proves any of your points, and your little "technique" isn't even related to what's going on. I could understand if you were casting like, 1 tech then did your little circle because that would be a groundbreaking emergency option, but you still cast enough within the card's active window then it disappeared before you even sheathed....I spoke directly to some of the arguments being made, actually, I'm sorry you're having trouble understanding a simple video.

Jump cancelling does not make you lose your first JA because you don't jump cancel when you're on the offense. It's a defensive/mobility move (mobility in the case of moving quicker after you're done recharging PP with its basic attack, or just in general...getting out of that slow animation). Why would you jump cancel before getting your JA anyway? I already said in the video, swinging the card just so you can jump cancel it makes no practical sense. The whole reason you jump cancel is to cancel the animation in the event you need to gtfo your current position (the animation locks you in place). It has no practical means to be used in terms of actually casting spells on enemies, because you can be mobile while charging spells anyway. What the heck is your point here? It's like a pointless point you're trying to make.

Also...your 2nd point really just speaks in favor of my argument that card recall time is a negligible point to make.

sibladeko

Jul 30, 2012, 02:21 AM

Welcome to the PSO-W forums! Enjoy your stay new guy!

In other news. Here's the video

PSO2 Card Mechanics - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadtOXtkTZo)

I am dying.
How can you be so clueless?

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:23 AM

I am dying.
How can you be so clueless?I'm sorry, I'm at odds to wonder how you're qualified or have any means to prove that you have any sort of insightful knowledge to back up anything you type in the incredibly small field of posts you have.

NoiseHERO

Jul 30, 2012, 02:31 AM

Man...

Trolls must LOOOOOOOVE you.

Saotome Kaneda

Jul 30, 2012, 02:32 AM

Also...your 2nd point really just speaks in favor of my argument that card recall time is a negligible point to make.

3 whole seconds that you can't get a localized heal on yourself because you're fiddling around away from the card and can't place another one properly is negligible? Stopping what you're doing to toss another card at the ground just to get it back in your hand is a pretty decent setback, and your little jig in the video isn't an effective alternative because that isn't as common a situation as getting messed with as soon as the card is tossed. Travel time is one of the key problems with the Talis if you want to say it's an effective tool for targeted healing/support tactics.

Also I maintain that there is nothing offensively in this game so far that has required the extra long range use of Talis when getting closer will do just as well. Personal preference aside.

As for the JC to get out of standing, my point was off there, it's late. I'll settle for "why are you tossing cards while on the ground instead of jumping, where you can also maintain JA bonus if you need it" instead.

FenixStryk

Jul 30, 2012, 02:38 AM

Here's the video:
PSO2 Card Mechanics - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadtOXtkTZo)
I am beside myself. I could die laughing.

"Sheath Canceling"! He's a Talis user and he doesn't even know how Talises work! HAHAHAHA HAHAHA! Pff-AAAHAHAHA HAHAHAAAaaa~! Spare me, please! This is too much! -- And you have the gall to say you have "ascended"? With that rubbish Talis and your little ritual?

Your delusions consume you, and I lack the drive to wake you up... but I will say this: Even a Talis user should be ashamed of you.

P.S.: Don't bother deleting that video.

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:42 AM

I am beside myself. I could die laughing.

"Sheath Canceling"! He's a Talis user and he doesn't even know how Talises work! HAHAHAHA HAHAHA! Pff-AAAHAHAHA HAHAHAAAaaa~! Spare me, please! This is too much! -- And you have the gall to say you have "ascended"? With that rubbish Talis and your little ritual?

Your delusions consume you, and I lack the drive to wake you up... but I will say this: Even a Talis user should be ashamed of you.

P.S.: Don't bother deleting that video.You're ignorant. I do know how Talis works. I dare you to wake me up. Oh, you can't. You're just another loud mouth troll with nothing to speak for their lack of an opinion except sarcasm and a lowlife attempt at belittling me.

The sheath itself is merely the vessel of display. A means to react according to a movement instead of making a guess, because you can't always see the card wherever you threw it. The ignorance you radiate is astounding. I'm ashamed you've posted in my thread. The point still stands that the time in which it takes for the card to despawn is not even worth making an argument over.

Reioumu

Jul 30, 2012, 02:44 AM

I'm sorry, I'm at odds to wonder how you're qualified or have any means to prove that you have any sort of insightful knowledge to back up anything you type in the incredibly small field of posts you have.

Zipzo for post of the year. I've learned so much from this. Time to spam to get 3000 posts so my posts are more valid than everyone else's

Coatl

Jul 30, 2012, 02:45 AM

The blatant passive-aggressiveness conjuring here is going to get this thread closed.
But then again, maybe that's the best thing that could happen.

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:50 AM

Is the point I made not obvious?

Sheath cancelling is a term I made up. To simply refer to the act of knowing the card is in your hand for sure based off of the sheath animation.

I'm perfectly aware that the sheath itself isn't what draws the card back from a mechanics and design perspective.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 02:51 AM

Here's the video

You have a cool voice

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:52 AM

You have a cool voice
Woah, Nelly. Buy me dinner first, will you?

UnLucky

Jul 30, 2012, 02:54 AM

Reioumu

Jul 30, 2012, 02:56 AM

btw fun fact. I hope you know that your card just expired by it's normal timer in your video. What a great technique you created.

aduran

Jul 30, 2012, 02:57 AM

i like cards cause charging pp is faster but playing with them is so difficult. after reading this thread, now i know why my cards were doing things i didnt want them to do. LOL

i must try the gunslash combo. I do like the higher TP damage and when i want constant output without mistakes; i do switch to ROD.

on big multiparty areas, cards are good and teammates help with the mistakes. soloing on difficult situations, rods are best.

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:58 AM

Wait, point it out to me again. What is "sheath canceling"?

In the video, you act like you've sheathed your weapon when you haven't yet. Your character is still holding a card, the talis is still out, and you can't run full speed.

The card disappears, yes, but that's because you've been casting long enough from it for it to disappear on its own. Do your "cancel" earlier and guess what? It doesn't work.Okay, I didn't think I would have to explain this, I'm being very honest, I thought it was implied.

"Sheath Canceling" is a term I made up, obviously. Now, I can completely see how this gets misinterpreted in to a lack of knowledge on the cards mechanics...but that isn't the case here. I called it sheath cancelling because one of the things people moaned about earlier in the thread was casting mistakenly off of deployed cards.

I use the Sheath as my visual signal because the card disappearing just about lines up perfectly with the sheath animation in terms of time it takes for it to disappear after your final cast, and when you sheath after a cast.

Finally, I made the point that very little time passes as you can monitor for yourself by using the sheath animation as your guideline for when the card gets recalled. I honestly didn't think it was that complicated of a concept to understand, I guess I was wrong.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 03:00 AM

btw fun fact. I hope you know that your card just expired by it's normal timer in your video. What a great technique you created.

The despawn timer for the deployed card happens to coincide with the timer to begin sheathing the weapon if you're moving immediately after the last cast

To UnLucky: The reason you don't recognize the card as being sheathed (even though the card is clearly placed on the back waist for a few frames) is because Zipzo is just pro at it

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 03:03 AM

The despawn timer for the deployed card happens to coincide with the timer to begin sheathing the weapon if you're moving immediately after the last castThank you.

For once I don't feel alone.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 03:10 AM

So, I just remembered that someone said the Magic power difference between Rod and Card of the same tier is the same difference between Female Newman and Cast

I mean, when a Cast with Rod can do 800 damage with Zonde, Female Newman with Card can do the same damage and be all over the battlefield with card clones at the same time
..And JA doesn't affect Resta anyway. Whoever said that

UnLucky

Jul 30, 2012, 03:12 AM

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 03:27 AM

Ok, I watched your video in fullscreen and I have to say, I missed the sheathing animation you actually forced early. Probably because you pull your weapon back out instantly (to prove a point, obviously, but it's still confusing) so I thought it was all just continuous. It's neat that it's a thing, but I have to wonder if it's worth spinning in place to be able to run earlier, or if it's better to just walk straight ahead first (a debate for another thread).

Anyway, I still don't get how it's an indicator of the card returning... Do it instantly and the card still remains. Do it really late and the card was already gone. So basically no matter when you sheathe your weapon (or after however many casts), you still don't know if the card is on the field or not which is the entire problem in the first place.

Say you tossed your card into a group and cast an AoE, but now they're running at you. Does doing your little jig let you start charging an AoE from your character?You know the card is in your hand if you are sheathing after a cast. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. It works after 1 cast. It works after 2 casts. It works after 3 casts. All the way up to 5 JAs (off my most recent tests).

I believe the timer starts from the moment the card stops moving, this means when you decide to make it stop with a cast.

From there, the card has a despawn timer, not from the moment you throw it, but seemingly from the moment it reaches its casting spot, and this despawn timer coincides with the sheath.

However again, you can get up to 5 JA casts off a deployed card. I think the timer for the auto card recall is much shorter than the time it takes for you to cast 5 JA casts, I think this should be obvious, so it's clear that continuing to cast past the cards actual despawn timer...lengthens its deployment lifespan until you are finished casting from it (which will inevitably be after the 5th JA cast). It also seems like the timer only really counts down when you aren't casting obviously, since it doesn't just despawn mid-cast.

Past its deployment lifespan, it's despawn still lines up perfectly with the sheath.

FenixStryk

Jul 30, 2012, 05:46 AM

Allow me to highlight the parts of your most recent hypothesis that are inconsistent with reality:

You know the card is in your hand if you are sheathing after a cast. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. Past its deployment lifespan, it's despawn still lines up perfectly with the sheath.

It works after 1 cast. It works after 2 casts. It works after 3 casts. All the way up to 5 JAs (off my most recent tests).

I believe the timer starts from the moment the card stops moving, this means when you decide to make it stop with a cast.A card has a lifespan of ~2.85 seconds from the moment it leaves your hand, give or take 0.05.

This duration is completely fixed, barring one exception: it does not count any time spent charging a Tech; if you are charging a Tech, card expiration is postponed indefinitely (read: until you let go of the Tech you are charging). The Tech casting animation is not counted in this postponement, nor is any other action (including your little spin).

Now for the nitty-gritty:
In an ideal scenario, you can get 5 JA Techs off of a card. That means casting off of a point-blank, you-just-threw-it, it's-right-in-front-of-you card, -and- nailing all of your Just Attacks without wasting time. Even if you cast off of that point-blank card, you've lost 0.35 seconds of your card's lifespan (you can't start charging any earlier). As for how long your Tech's post-charge casting animation is? It's 0.55 seconds.

So! 0.35s + (4)0.55s = 2.55 seconds, read: barely enough time to start charging that fifth JA Tech from a point-blank card (0.30s, to be precise). In other words, you won't even be able to get your fifth JA Tech out if you allow your card to fly 0.30s farther than minimum range. Taken further, you will also lose your 4th JA Tech if you waste >0.85s letting your card fly out to max range!

You will find that these numbers align perfectly with the previous 2.85 seconds given for the card's total lifespan.

"That's a pointless point" -- No. With the above, I have outlined the correct mechanisms behind card lifespan, and in the process proven invariably that your claim of "the timer starts from the moment the card stops moving" is incorrect.

Now, for your "Sheathing works as a perfect signal that your card has despawned"? No. A sheath triggered by movement occurs exactly 1.00 seconds after you start moving in any direction, not counting any previous animations.

Regrettably, 1.00s is not 2.85s, or 2.50, or 1.95, or 1.40, or even 0.85. It is, however, AT BEST a crude estimate for the time it takes for the following animations to play: throwing one card out, casting a Tech point-blank, not Jump Cancelling it, then running as soon as it lets you move until your weapon is sheathed... -only- in this scenario.

It is inaccurate if you cast no techs (a typical scenario if you are using cards to regen PP; the card has not even expired);
it is also inaccurate if you cast 2 Techs, or 3 Techs, or 4 Techs, or 9 Techs, or 20 Techs (the card expired long before you sheathed your weapon).
(This was UnLucky's point, but you quickly dismissed it as it did not align with your "perfect" assessment.)

Taken further, sheathing is only a fixed 1.0 seconds if you initiate it from a run, and only run. Any number of jumps or fidgets that interrupt the running wind-up will also interrupt the sheathing process; as it so happens, these "reset" limitations (and a couple more) also apply to the 5 second idle-triggered sheathing process, although you shouldn't be using the latter method in combat.

In summation, "Sheath Cancelling" is not in any way representative of how card expiration works, nor does it even effect or roughly estimate the actual lifespan of a card.

Finally, on the efficiency of letting your card die (what Sheath Cancelling is)... it is your worst option. Killing your card in TPS Mode is faster, and switching to a secondary weapon is faster still. What you are doing in ~2 seconds, a good Force will do in 0.5.

TL;DR: Everything in your video is wrong.

You would be wise to concede... and yet, I expect you are more likely to evade any and all counter-points made in this post, and will instead dismiss them as irrelevant. While such tactics are great in politics, they will fail you in a debate.

Good day, and God help you.

P.S.: Your post count is less than half of mine. By your own measure, you are nothing to me.

Kondibon

Jul 30, 2012, 06:35 AM

I've been doing this too Zipzo. It's nothing special but it does make a decent way to tell when the card returned. Throwing one at the floor is faster though.

Vyscillius

Jul 30, 2012, 07:34 AM

You have a cool voice

I second that. Truth be told, I had to watch the video twice : once because of the awesome voice and twice to actually analyze what you're doing.

So about dinner... how about a beer instead?

But let's be serious, I think it's nice of you to try to make your point by making a video, and point taken Thalis might be a good alternative but ultimately, it all depends on everyone's way of playing : agressive close combat Force or more of a range support.
Too bad there are so much trolls around here... Too bad the same people who complain about how people make fun of them, those people who can't stand that others mock them are the same people that are making fun and mocking others... Sad truth.

UnLucky

Jul 30, 2012, 08:06 AM

A card has a lifespan of ~2.85 seconds from the moment it leaves your hand, give or take 0.05.

Ah, finally someone gets out the stopwatch.

it does not count any time spent charging a Tech
I knew the card would never disappear mid charge, but haven't tested to see if it extended the longevity of the card. Good to know

Taken further, sheathing is only a fixed 1.0 seconds if you initiate it from a run, and only run. Any number of jumps or fidgets that interrupt the running wind-up will also interrupt the sheathing process;
I noticed jumping repeatedly was not how you go fast. Any difference between going straight or zigzagging?

Finally, on the efficiency of letting your card die (what Sheath Cancelling is)... it is your worst option. Killing your card in TPS Mode is faster, and switching to a secondary weapon is faster still. What you are doing in ~2 seconds, a good Force will do in 0.5.
What's your opinion on sending out a new card and JAing a tech ASAP for a "close enough" character centered tech?

TL;DR: Everything in your video is wrong.
Or at least the parts pertaining to card recall tells.

P.S.: Your post count is less than half of mine. By your own measure, you are nothing to me.
Oh man, you signed up before him too! And your posts per day simply destroys his! I think we know who won this argument.

Kondibon

Jul 30, 2012, 08:09 AM

What's your opinion on sending out a new card and JAing a tech ASAP for a "close enough" character centered tech?In the time it takes for a JA to be ready you'd be out of range for support techs. I tried doing it as fast as I could but there's a delay before you can even cast.

Gardios

Jul 30, 2012, 08:12 AM

Does JA even affect support techs?

Kondibon

Jul 30, 2012, 08:13 AM

Does JA even affect support techs?
No, I think UnLucky just meant do it before the card stops.

Coatl

Jul 30, 2012, 08:13 AM

Kondibon

Jul 30, 2012, 08:16 AM

I've been testing rods and cards since this thread has gone up due to the interesting theories and ideas expressed.

One thing, however, I found false. Rod does not recover more PP per hit than talis. The amount PP the player recovers when a card, or a rod, makes contact with the foe's face are equal. And the number of PP recovered is not 10.

Unless the number of PP recovered is dependant on the maximum PP capacity of the player?
Yeah, I've noticed that too, but something else I've noticed is that after a certain range you end up recalling the card before it even hits, and they move slow so it's harder to hit faster enemies.

With a staff however when surrounded by enemies if you hit them (with that giant splash range) you get PP from each hit, which can be faster in those situations.

TaigaUC

Jul 30, 2012, 08:26 AM

Forgive me for not reading through the entire thread. I think each of the weapons has their own merits. Yes, I use Card or Gunslash to regen PP, but I also like to stay up close with enemies so I use the Rod melee a lot too (and it does good damage).

Rod's clear advantage is the higher magic damage. Obviously it's the least safe choice. Card may have less damage, but there's the ability to use the Card as a casting point. I find this useful to get around enemy defenses to attack weak points, and also to support from a distance. It also gives range to several Techs, but I think it's still kind of difficult to control reliably (inability to easily cancel the Card, etc).

Gunslash shots make contact immediately, unlike the Card which takes time to travel, making it the better choice for regenerating. But there are situations where the Card's casting point allows constant alternating between regeneration attacks and ranged Gigrants.

FenixStryk

Jul 30, 2012, 08:37 AM

Any difference between going straight or zigzagging?Time-wise, not really. A straight line is the same amount of time as churning butter if executed perfectly; if you mess up rolling WASD WASD WASD, it's actually a little slower, but a Pad player won't have this issue.

What's your opinion on sending out a new card and JAing a tech ASAP for a "close enough" character centered tech?
It's better than waiting for your card to die (everything is). As long as you are walking towards it the moment you throw it out, you'll be in range when it's done charging. That said, it could backfire by putting you at risk if you throw it towards an enemy due to an accidental lock... not ideal. Your call.

Does JA even affect support techs?No. Resta, Shifta, Deband and Anti have the same effect with or without JA.

Ana-Chan

Jul 30, 2012, 08:40 AM

Hmm, forgot to mention earlier, but when I solo, even if I use NPCs, I normally switch to using rods exclusively. I find that unless you can get into a darker vs native battle, or catch them by surprise, the range boost and point of casting bonus of the talis really loses its effectiveness.
Because NPCs don't go that far away from you, then you are stuck close to the monsters most of the time, so you have to be careful of the sudden switch in agro. So the rod and its ability to flinch can be more useful in this case.

Malifaux

Jul 30, 2012, 12:34 PM

Rods are better DPS, but cards offer the versatility of a (free) range attack and PP restore.

What I do is my "main" weapon is a Rod, but if I need PP in a pinch, I swap to one of my card-throwers and smack some stuff a few times and swap back.

Sometimes I don't even really need to do that; if you time your attacks right, you can generally keep many kinds of enemies at bay doing a smack/smack/tech arrangement, and thus, you're not generally in a whole lot of danger. The only time it gets tricky is if there are more than 2-3 mobs around you. Otherwise, it's not too bad.

Kondibon

Jul 30, 2012, 01:01 PM

No you just aren't doing it properly, there are many technical intricacies that you guys' obviously just don't understand when it comes to being a master of the Talis. If you'd bother to learn and try them out, you could ascend to a higher plane of game play and take longer to do everything, but look like you're doing something that isn't Day 1 mechanics by making Day 1 mechanics senselessly stupid.

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand...

Zorafim

Jul 30, 2012, 01:09 PM

One thing, however, I found false. Rod does not recover more PP per hit than talis. The amount PP the player recovers when a card, or a rod, makes contact with the foe's face are equal. And the number of PP recovered is not 10.

See now, I'm having trouble believing this. It may be true that the amount recovered per hit is dependent on something besides the weapon type (perhaps the weapon model, or some base stat?), but I know I'm getting 9 or 10 pp per smack with a rod, and 7 or 8 with a throw of a card. I can't tell for sure because of natural regen, but my best bet is 7 per card, 10 per thwack.

P.S.: Your post count is less than half of mine. By your own measure, you are nothing to me.

Oh hi guys, what's going on in this topic?

Nika

Jul 30, 2012, 01:45 PM

lol, how could a thread that it is just the OP vs everyone else last this long?

I thought everything here already sum up from the first reply when I saw this thread starting

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 02:03 PM

I was under the impression that throwing a card had its initial despawn timer, but casting off of it overwrote the despawn timer with a short one that's enough to cast again easily, and each new cast kept refreshing the short despawn timer
This is wrong?

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:13 PM

Allow me to highlight the parts of your most recent hypothesis that are inconsistent with reality:

A card has a lifespan of ~2.85 seconds from the moment it leaves your hand, give or take 0.05.

This duration is completely fixed, barring one exception: it does not count any time spent charging a Tech; if you are charging a Tech, card expiration is postponed indefinitely (read: until you let go of the Tech you are charging). The Tech casting animation is not counted in this postponement, nor is any other action (including your little spin).Now that I'm awake, I can address this...

Well clearly we have a genius here who cannot read my posts before amassing his mighty tome of knowledge over me, and may not have noticed that I covered this in posts before this one myself.

Now for the nitty-gritty:
In an ideal scenario, you can get 5 JA Techs off of a card. That means casting off of a point-blank, you-just-threw-it, it's-right-in-front-of-you card, -and- nailing all of your Just Attacks without wasting time. Even if you cast off of that point-blank card, you've lost 0.35 seconds of your card's lifespan (you can't start charging any earlier). As for how long your Tech's post-charge casting animation is? It's 0.55 seconds.

So! 0.35s + (4)0.55s = 2.55 seconds, read: barely enough time to start charging that fifth JA Tech from a point-blank card (0.30s, to be precise). In other words, you won't even be able to get your fifth JA Tech out if you allow your card to fly 0.30s farther than minimum range. Taken further, you will also lose your 4th JA Tech if you waste >0.85s letting your card fly out to max range!Nitty gritty indeed. You haven't actually even presented any decent data, you're just colliding your experience with mine in which you happened to time it a couple of times. I can cast 5 JA off a deployed card. It's not my fault you're incapable.

You're forgetting that I said JA cast? This means that the first cast comes when a JA attack is possible (the little circle that envelops your character that you use as a visual signal for JA? Yeah. That). Following this visual signal (and doing it right now several times just to make sure, look, I even went and experimented just for you), I can easily and consistently get 5 JA's off of a deployed card. This includes the first JA off the basic throw attack that you must do to get it. The position of the card is not important sometimes, and especially when using targeted TECHs. So there's no reason why you can't get the first JA attack in most situations. The only times where you won't get that first JA attack, the timer will be strange, and you likely won't get 5 because you probably waited for the card to get to a certain position before casting, which undoubtedly takes precious seconds. Do the math...5 JA attacks...that's 5 casting animations that had to go through with the card still out. 0.5 x 5 = 2.5 seconds. This makes it perfectly possible to get all 5 JAs in to one card. Here is the part where you reform your "facts" after being mind blown by simple math, isn't it? If you wait too long for the first cast you will miss the first JA anyway.

However, my ability to get 5 JA casts off on a deployed card where as you obviously can't, isn't the point of this exchange, so moving on...

You will find that these numbers align perfectly with the previous 2.85 seconds given for the card's total lifespan.

"That's a pointless point" -- No. With the above, I have outlined the correct mechanisms behind card lifespan, and in the process proven invariably that your claim of "the timer starts from the moment the card stops moving" is incorrect.

Now, for your "Sheathing works as a perfect signal that your card has despawned"? No. A sheath triggered by movement occurs exactly 1.00 seconds after you start moving in any direction, not counting any previous animations.

Regrettably, 1.00s is not 2.85s, or 2.50, or 1.95, or 1.40, or even 0.85. It is, however, AT BEST a crude estimate for the time it takes for the following animations to play: throwing one card out, casting a Tech point-blank, not Jump Cancelling it, then running as soon as it lets you move until your weapon is sheathed... -only- in this scenario.

It is inaccurate if you cast no techs (a typical scenario if you are using cards to regen PP; the card has not even expired);
it is also inaccurate if you cast 2 Techs, or 3 Techs, or 4 Techs, or 9 Techs, or 20 Techs (the card expired long before you sheathed your weapon).
(This was UnLucky's point, but you quickly dismissed it as it did not align with your "perfect" assessment.)

Taken further, sheathing is only a fixed 1.0 seconds if you initiate it from a run, and only run. Any number of jumps or fidgets that interrupt the running wind-up will also interrupt the sheathing process; as it so happens, these "reset" limitations (and a couple more) also apply to the 5 second idle-triggered sheathing process, although you shouldn't be using the latter method in combat.

In summation, "Sheath Cancelling" is not in any way representative of how card expiration works, nor does it even effect or roughly estimate the actual lifespan of a card.

Of course it's crude! Just as going in to TPS mode to throw a card at the ground is a crude tactic.

I have good news and bad news for you. The good news is I will admit to you that the card seemingly does not initiate the despawn timer from the point that it reaches its casting spot. However, you may notice that in the post that I suggested that, it was inquisitive in nature, and I completely implied that I wasn't sure. So you don't really win this victoriously, because there's still other factors involved to account for.

The bad news, my friend, you're completely disregarding the casting animation frames. The casting animation itself takes ~0.5 seconds on its own, and it is un-interruptable, and you cannot move nor begin the initiation of a sheath during this time. Every time you cast something, anything, this casting animation will follow the unleashed spell. Once you finish the final cast, you have already lost half a second or so to the card timer before attempting to sheath, and assuming you're jump canceling or just came from jump casting, you may dig even further in to the timer because you have to wait the milliseconds it takes for your character to actually hit the ground before you run. Also, when you jump cast, there is a small erroneous "bunny hop" you do mid-air, which prevents you from falling immediately, have to take that in to account because many forces (all?) jump cast for many reasons. Obviously there is a couple of millisecond (1-3) variable, depending on after which cast you decided to try and sheath but it is of no noticeable buffer.

This makes the ~1 second sheath time an extremely good indicator, visually, that you may safely cast without accidentally casting off in Timbuktu. People in this thread have talked a lot about mobility. In the time span it takes you to get in to TPS mode, aim at the ground and shoot? You could have sheathed by movement anyhow. Using sheath as the visual indicator in which I've outlined...? You lose no efficiency by completely neglecting TPS mode in this situation. Remember this is 1 second we're talking. Now if you're going to tell me that you go TPS mode, swing a card, then leave TPS mode to cast whatever it is you're going for in mere milliseconds, I'd really like to know what kind of fast line your reflexes work on, because these are milliseconds of time here that you're just throwing around like nothing. Let's also not forgot that a large majority of players play the game with a controller, so the TPS method is not as accessible to those players.

Finally, on the efficiency of letting your card die (what Sheath Cancelling is)... it is your worst option. Killing your card in TPS Mode is faster, and switching to a secondary weapon is faster still. What you are doing in ~2 seconds, a good Force will do in 0.5.

TL;DR: Everything in your video is wrong.

You would be wise to concede... and yet, I expect you are more likely to evade any and all counter-points made in this post, and will instead dismiss them as irrelevant. While such tactics are great in politics, they will fail you in a debate.

Good day, and God help you.Wrong again. Sheath canceling is a great alternative, and it will continue to be unless the card mechanics change. You completely neglected casting animation times, and you completely neglected that TPS mode tactic takes just as much time as run sheathing as a valid mention. You're "A good force will do this in 0.5 seconds" is not a fact. That's an absolutely subjective and completely made up figure with a number attached to it in order to give it some sort of strength in the argument, which it doesn't, because you pulled out the stopwatch only once in this attempt to make a condescending point.

I don't need to evade them, you set them up yourself to get roasted by anyone who bothers to actually educate themselves on the mechanics and on their practical basis during game play. Strict words and a stern approach doesn't invariably win you an argument, and saying that all counter arguments to yours will be dismissed? Try harder...

P.S.: Your post count is less than half of mine. By your own measure, you are nothing to me. Also, I made the post count comment at an obvious troll in his first few days + sub-20 post count. It means he basically signed up to troll. There's a difference here, and you don't make yourself look like you're on any higher ground by being a douche in this regard when you're simply using it as fling, when you would have responded the same way in my position, if not at all.

TLDR; try again, pal.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 02:19 PM

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:31 PM

I'm gonna let you know that 0.05 is not half a second

Now I'll read the rest of your post

Edit: It sounds like doing only one spell off of the card will make it take 2 more seconds to despawn, yet you say you can be safe upon sheathing after any number of casts. Certainly, you should address thisQuote me where I said "0.05" seconds? I clearly used 0.5 seconds every single time I mentioned the figure. You might want to read posts clearly before you say things like this.

It takes a second to sheath plus whatever duration of time had to pass during your casting animation and/or falling to the ground after the erroneous mid-air "bunny hop", so after the first cast specifically you're left a slight millisecond duration of time (most likely) where instantaneously casting will not mean the card is back in your hand yet after the first cast.

I already said in my post that there's a millisecond variable through out each cast, descending, as it gets closer to despawning it becomes more exact, pretty much after the first cast it will be impossible to catch a misplaced cast after the sheath.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote me where I said "0.05" seconds? I clearly used 0.5 seconds every single time I mentioned the figure. You might want to read posts clearly before you say things like this.

It takes a second to respawn plus whatever duration of time had to pass during your casting animation and/or falling to the ground after the erroneous mid-air "bunny hop", so you're left a slight millisecond duration of time (most likely) where instantaneously casting will not mean the card is back in your hand yet.

I already said in my post that there's a millisecond variable through out each cast, descending, as it gets closer to despawning it becomes more exact.

"A card has a lifespan of ~2.85 seconds from the moment it leaves your hand, give or take 0.05." -Fenyx

"Give or take a whole half of a second?" -Zipzo

I was only talking about the very first paragraph of your response.

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 02:35 PM

"A card has a lifespan of ~2.85 seconds from the moment it leaves your hand, give or take 0.05." -Fenyx

"Give or take a whole half of a second?" -Zipzo

I was only talking about the very first paragraph of your response.Okay, I see your point. I edited out my lack of attention to that extra zero, since you're right.

jOhMG

Jul 30, 2012, 02:54 PM

Another point to take in mind, Talis also pass through targets. You can damage multiple enemies in a straight line as long as you don't touch the environment in the process. This helps alot in large fights since the line of effect is actual quite wide. This also helps PP regen alot because the main time I through cards is during large group fights. I can usual blow through small groups without needing a throw.

I haven't played around with bullet based weapons much, but can they hit multi-targets? If they can't this makes the Talis much more viable in my eyes over the gunslash method

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 03:03 PM

I haven't played around with bullet based weapons much, but can they hit multi-targets? If they can't this makes the Talis much more viable in my eyes over the gunslash method

Gunslash shots only hit one enemy, with seemingly instantaneous 'travel' speed
The issue with cards is that in most cases, you have to stagger your throws so the card actually goes far enough to hit more than one enemy
Meaning you could be throwing one card per second to hit multiple enemies, while someone with gunslash can just shoot like twice per second on average

Galax

Jul 30, 2012, 03:51 PM

jOhMG

Jul 30, 2012, 04:05 PM

To the above issue that GoldenFalcon pointed out, if you fire cards too quickly at too large a range, they don't even connect - You fire a second card before the first one makes contact, canceling the first cards flightpath...And unless you're paying specific attention to that, you might not notice that you're firing card after card and doing nothing.

That's not an issue. That's just human error. That seems to be the biggest problem people have with talis. They don't want to master the mechanics or have to pay attention and plan their attacks more precisely then just swinging a rod around.

If you JA all of your moves then you shouldn't worry about range at all because it becomes ingrained into you. You learn the range and learn to adapt with it.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 04:14 PM

That's not an issue. That's just human error. That seems to be the biggest problem people have with talis. They don't want to master the mechanics or have to pay attention and plan their attacks more precisely then just swinging a rod around.

If you JA all of your moves then you shouldn't worry about range at all because it becomes ingrained into you. You learn the range and learn to adapt with it.

That's why I said that Rod is for reactive play, since cards are about planning

Vyscillius

Jul 30, 2012, 04:22 PM

That's why I said that Rod is for reactive play, since cards are about planning

When I read this, the first thing popping in to my head is "isn't that what a real Force is all about? Planning its moves? The intellectual mage?" I guess it's just a dumb stereotype but somehow, a part of me wishes it was true.

NoiseHERO

Jul 30, 2012, 04:37 PM

When I read this, the first thing popping in to my head is "isn't that what a real Force is all about? Planning its moves? The intellectual mage?" I guess it's just a dumb stereotype but somehow, a part of me wishes it was true.

This is kind of what made me like fomar in PSO, Then love force in this game. It felt like you had a lot of different choices to go about different situations. and the addition of cards made everything slightly more technical (and definitely more fun.) Compared to PSU's meatheaded nuke spamming of the element your enemy is weak against or something. Which even though techs were still flashy I still found FO to be boring because of that in PSU.

But now after a while... It still just feels like... meh...

/spams whatever feels like the strongest tech from each element.

jOhMG

Jul 30, 2012, 04:37 PM

That's why I said that Rod is for reactive play, since cards are about planning

This here sums up the entire debate. I don't think that can be disputed at all.

UnLucky

Jul 30, 2012, 05:29 PM

Do the math...5 JA attacks...that's 5 casting animations that had to go through with the card still out. 0.5 x 5 = 2.5 seconds. This makes it perfectly possible to get all 5 JAs in to one card.
So... EXACTLY what Fenix said...? I don't... what?

Wrong again. Sheath canceling is a great alternative, and it will continue to be unless the card mechanics change. You completely neglected casting animation times, and you completely neglected that TPS mode tactic takes just as much time as run sheathing as a valid mention.
A strict 1+ "guideline" simply cannot be compared to a 1- actual indicator

Assuming you're incredibly and adaptably inefficient when sheathing your weapon after casting a variable amount of techs to take exactly the perfect amount of time to have the card disappear, you could have used another method instead in the same amount of time (or less) and forced the card back properly and reliably. Being able to cast when I want to is just too good to pass up, so waiting for the card to expire in any fashion is ludicrous to me.

Please, just stop advocating this technique. It may work for you if you only use it after 2 or 3 casts minimum, but it won't work for anyone complaining about casting off their card in the field by accident. Call them inept if you want, but this "advanced technique" won't help them.

Shadowth117

Jul 30, 2012, 05:40 PM

This here sums up the entire debate. I don't think that can be disputed at all.

The whole game has to do with reactive play AND planning. Its silly to assume because I'm fighting close range I'm not thinking about it too. Yes, you can toss a card somewhere and attack from there all you like. If there's much more strategy there than moving your character in certain ways, I'm not seeing it.

And back to the general topic, for those who truly believe cards are outright better can one of you perhaps post a video showing say, Big Vader or the Snow Cats being destroyed by them in as timely a fashion as possible? I'd be interested to see how swiftly that can go. It should also be very easy to get a good kill time on either if cards truly trump rods on them.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 05:49 PM

Please, just stop advocating this technique. It may work for you if you only use it after 2 or 3 casts minimum, but it won't work for anyone complaining about casting off their card in the field by accident. Call them inept if you want, but this "advanced technique" won't help them.

It works based on a single cast
If you watch the video, you can see how fast it disappears after 3 then 2 casts. It disappears a good deal of time before the full speed movement starts

Zipzo

Jul 30, 2012, 05:50 PM

So... EXACTLY what Fenix said...? I don't... what?
He implied it was too difficult, and the window for which you can do it is too narrow to accomplish consistently. I don't know how you missed that part.

A strict 1+ "guideline" simply cannot be compared to a 1- actual indicator

Assuming you're incredibly and adaptably inefficient when sheathing your weapon after casting a variable amount of techs to take exactly the perfect amount of time to have the card disappear, you could have used another method instead in the same amount of time (or less) and forced the card back properly and reliably. Being able to cast when I want to is just too good to pass up, so waiting for the card to expire in any fashion is ludicrous to me.Like what? There is no other way except to wait or take the effort to TPS and throw a card in to the ground which is arguably the same amount of time as sheath. I'm only preaching a visual indication that is generally an efficient and non-obstructive point in time for which to assume the card is in your hand again.

You can jump out of your chair, and do the hokey pokey IRL for all I gave a hell if that suits you better on a measure of the time needed for the card to recall. I just made it easy.

Please, just stop advocating this technique. It may work for you if you only use it after 2 or 3 casts minimum, but it won't work for anyone complaining about casting off their card in the field by accident. Call them inept if you want, but this "advanced technique" won't help them.
I'm not going to stop advocating something that works perfectly fine and can make your game play more efficient without throwing spells off in a different country.

jOhMG

Jul 30, 2012, 06:05 PM

It's funny how we aren't allowed to like something because they don't.
I am just saying what works for me. Sorry it doesn't work out for you. No need to be butt hurt about it.

Once again it's all about your playstyle and preference. The damage difference between skilled users of either weapon is unnoticeable.

GoldenFalcon

Jul 30, 2012, 06:22 PM

In situations where you need to keep throwing cards for optimal AoE coverage, someone with a Rod can be in the thick of it and just follow enemy movements while casting nonstop
Unless the Card user is okay with their Rabarta or whatnot being on the side of the group rather than in the middle, in which the Rod user is helping more provided they don't get killed

Kirukia

Jul 30, 2012, 07:04 PM

You can jump out of your chair, and do the hokey pokey IRL for all I gave a hell if that suits you better on a measure of the time needed for the card to recall.

Don't tempt me.

Broken_L_button

Jul 30, 2012, 07:37 PM

Rod.

If I want to cast a line tech, Cards don't offer anything extra over rod.

If I want to cast a Gi tech, I prefer rod. Being in the middle of the enemy group means that they'll most likely target me, thus, no worries of them moving out of the range of my Talis. And besides, enemies attack once every blue moon, flinch easily and their damage is easily countered by stacking HP (one can easily get a force over 600 HP, 750+HP if Dodo deems them worthy). The age of the unflinching lv.170+ Polty juggernaut is long gone.

If I want to support the hunters/rangers, rod again. They move a lot, and I'd rather not waste time leading them with my card to support them while I can be at their side casting Resta/Shifta/Anti (deband being rather bleh, since the fact 5 defense = 1 less damage works against that spell's tiny defense boost). And even then, buffs and heals aren't the only way to support. Stun-locking enemies with a tech like gizonde is also a great way to support your party.

In most mini-boss/boss fights...Rod, unless it's big sis Ragne or those darkers with shields. Talis doesn't give me more damage against Ragne compared to just sniping her weak spot with a Rod's Rafoie, but it does make using Gigrants against her more convenient than that (as long as the card is high enough and between her abdomen and her head, Gigrants will hit her weak point). As for the shield-using darkers...Throwing a Talis behind them and letting Gigrants rip them up is simple enough. For the rest, it's definitely Rod.

...Now this got me wondering why I'm still carrying that Talis even though I'm done with Maloo's SP+5 CO. Oh wait, Joseph also has Talis training COs. Blargh :/

Soul Guardian

Jul 30, 2012, 08:22 PM

I used to use cards, but I slowly stopped because I find them unsatisfying; I'm not a fan of ranged weapons aside from magic spells themselves.

I would normally be playing a melee force type of class if one existed, but for the time being Rods and gunslashes are all I have to work with.

UnLucky

Jul 30, 2012, 08:23 PM

He implied it was too difficult, and the window for which you can do it is too narrow to accomplish consistently. I don't know how you missed that part.
The point was to break it down into parts to match the lifetime of the card taking into account cast animations and charging. The only "difficulty" is that you can't let the card extend all the way first. You could prove him wrong if you show it's possible to get 5 techs off after waiting for the last possible moment to JA the first cast.

Like what? There is no other way except to wait or take the effort to TPS and throw a card in to the ground which is arguably the same amount of time as sheath. I'm only preaching a visual indication that is generally an efficient and non-obstructive point in time for which to assume the card is in your hand again.
I thought you were all for advanced level of play here. "Taking the effort" to do something that actually works instead of just waiting fits the bill perfectly. I'll drop it after this since you don't seem to understand that you can shoot a card into the ground or switch weapons "in the same amount of time" at any point and you know 110% for sure that your next cast will be from your character. The same cannot be said about your sheathe canceling.

I'm not going to stop advocating something that works perfectly fine and can make your game play more efficient without throwing spells off in a different country.
The issue you keep avoiding is that it does not work perfectly fine and does nothing for efficiency. In fact, it works against it. But keep telling yourself that you're the best and have completely mastered the talis with your expert skills.

You can jump out of your chair, and do the hokey pokey IRL for all I gave a hell if that suits you better on a measure of the time needed for the card to recall.
Ironic that this is equivalent to your method because neither actually affects anything in game and is just a measure for waiting. Might as well count to three since that's just as well.