Future viability of support.

[Kondibon]

I love playing support in a lot of games but I've noticed a few people don't seem to regard support Forces very highly. Even I find it needlessly bothersome to have everyone stop to get buffed in such a fast paced game.

As things are right now, rangers, with weak bullet, jellen bullet, poison traps, etc have a better support game that forces do. So my question is, do you think the viability of playing support as a force will get better as the game goes on and hopefully becomes more difficult?

[Jakosifer]

When more Time Attack missions are introduced, people will at least want Shifta, and the duration will definitely get an increase as well. Along with an AoE increase hopefully. The problem with buffs now is the four ticks to get the full effect for such a short duration.

I'm hoping that a class that is better at support gets unlocked, or that there is a support skill tree at some point. As it stands now you get the most out of buffs as a Force yourself or at boss portals. Otherwise its just a time sink, same goes for Resta, despite pretty much being a full heal if the Force has good T.Atk.

[Ueno54]

PSO has never been the type of game where a person can sit in the back doing mostly if not purely support. You can thank the support items in the game that let us keep ourselves alive instead of relying on a healer.

[Zyrusticae]

This is pretty much the wrong game to be playing if you just want to play pure (or even medium-heavy) support.

[Kondibon]

I feel that people misunderstand what playing support means to me. Healing and buffing is fine, but what about things like Jellen and Zalure? I never said anything about playing PURE support (the idea of me playing pure anything is lol), it's just an option I like to have.

If worst comes to worst I can always switch to ranger. *shrugs*

[Shadowth117]

I love playing support in a lot of games but I've noticed a few people don't seem to regard support Forces very highly. Even I find it needlessly bothersome to have everyone stop to get buffed in such a fast paced game.

As things are right now, rangers, with weak bullet, jellen bullet, poison traps, etc have a better support game that forces do. So my question is, do you think the viability of playing support as a force will get better as the game goes on and hopefully becomes more difficult?

Support force as you seem to enjoy would involve some excellent talis play with buffs and healing techs. In the end really isn't even worth it whatsoever since players will do the most damage by avoiding damage on themselves generally. You flinch in this game from most attacks which will cancel PA's and Tech charging so no one should be trying to tank stuff unless they really can't avoid it or on the rare occasion it won't matter. An occasional resta or anti would likely be welcome, but it shouldn't be your priority, especially when its so easy for others to heal themselves.

Now if you consider that there should be little reason to heal in the first place, we can go onto the buffing situation. Now as it is right now, Shifta and Deband are about equal to Shiftaride and Debandaride or whatever they're called. These also group buff in this which is an interesting change. Obviously Shifta and Deband will grow stronger as time goes by so this may change gameplay a bit. However we don't know that there won't be upgraded buff items to go with them. Even if there aren't, its often a waste of time to buff a group during the middle of a mission since the radius is so small and you waste time gathering the group.

This isn't even mentioning the fact that force is a legitimately powerful class itself just like the other two. If you're playing it well, you can dish out massive amounts of damage. Particularly so on groups of enemies which is where force has always excelled, but you can also hit very far away with precision now if you need to using TPS mode. Talises in certain situations can be amazing for getting AOE out there this way, although there haven't been a lot of reasons to do this yet in my opinion.

And then there's the fact that Rafoie in this game (Zonde and grants sort of, but not as good) can be used with lock on to hit specific enemy targets from long range and around walls. That one feature is something that's completely impossible for rangers or hunters currently. For example, unlike a ranger who has to be very precise to hit ragne's weak point when he's not down or a fighter who can only hit that weak spot when ragne is down, you as a force can spam techs into his weak point repeatedly without issue. Doesn't matter if he jumps around or what. And if you lose the lock, its never hard to get it back. And of course, if you feel like breaking specific parts, nothing stops you from hitting a leg from the opposite side of him say if you so choose.

So really, I personally feel it to be wasteful to play a force as a support class in this. But if that's a fun way to play for you than I say go for it. I sometimes look at the game from too much of a speedrunning/time attacking perspective myself while ignoring certain things that make the game interesting to play for others.

Edit: Ah, didn't see that last post. But yeah, like you said there aren't many support options. Zalure and Jellen are noticeably absent from our techs this time around it appears. Even aside from that though, there really aren't many support based things on Force while Ranger on the other hand gets stuff like Weak and Jellen shot among other things. Its hard to say if they'll really add more to the game to make either class excel at being primarily support, but at the moment I don't think they're really going for it.

[Blizz3112]

So, what you really want is being able to cast Zalure and Jellen as a Force... Maybe they will reintroduce them as the game gets build up. They DO need to get better, along with Shifta and Deband to actually be worth the trouble, though...

Also remember, the Force is also granting support by giving status-effects along with their damage-dealing spells, which is a good plus when using it constantly on enemies...

[Kondibon]

Support force as you seem to enjoy would involve some excellent talis play with buffs and healing techs. In the end really isn't even worth it whatsoever since players will do the most damage by avoiding damage on themselves generally. You flinch in this game from most attacks which will cancel PA's and Tech charging so no one should be trying to tank stuff unless they really can't avoid it or on the rare occasion it won't matter. An occasional resta or anti would likely be welcome, but it shouldn't be your priority, especially when its so easy for others to heal themselves.

Now if you consider that there should be little reason to heal in the first place, we can go onto the buffing situation. Now as it is right now, Shifta and Deband are about equal to Shiftaride and Debandaride or whatever they're called. These also group buff in this which is an interesting change. Obviously Shifta and Deband will grow stronger as time goes by so this may change gameplay a bit. However we don't know that there won't be upgraded buff items to go with them. Even if there aren't, its often a waste of time to buff a group during the middle of a mission since the radius is so small and you waste time gathering the group.
I agree with like... all of that actually. It's why I'm hoping it'll get better. That said the build I'm going for is pretty silly, and probably not viable in terms of pure dps. XD

I actually tend to focus buffing one person at a time even if it isn't as effecient. Or waiting for those moments when a boss falls down and everyone goes after one spot.




Also remember, the Force is also granting support by giving status-effects along with their damage-dealing spells, which is a good plus when using it constantly on enemies...
This is true actually... and one of the reasons I like fighting Vol Dragon as a force. I can freeze his feet. I hope they continue to add things like that.

[GoldenFalcon]

Or waiting for those moments when a boss falls down and everyone goes after one spot.

When I was playing Force with 100% gunslash in the city, I used shifta and resta around things like Ragne falling down or the Code Destruction. With Ragne, I didn't have an excuse not to charge shifta while maneuvering up to the weakpoint to spam Rage Dance

[Husq]

So, what you really want is being able to cast Zalure and Jellen as a Force... Maybe they will reintroduce them as the game gets build up. They DO need to get better, along with Shifta and Deband to actually be worth the trouble, though...

Thing about Zalure and Jellen is, the ranger class already have Weak Bullets (weakening defense) and Jellen shot.
Nevertheless I would welcome both techs, because they are useful, if your party is caught in multiple emergency codes like attack and duel, which seem to be quite common in the mines.

[sugarFO]

PSO has never been the type of game where a person can sit in the back doing mostly if not purely support. You can thank the support items in the game that let us keep ourselves alive instead of relying on a healer.
Did you play PSO? I was a full support FO and I would always be casting jellen/zalure, resta, anti and buffs. People appreciated it a lot. So yeah, PSO has been the type of game to have someone in a support role. It's just now that FO's are forced to use their weapons to regenerate PP and also that buffs suck and there's no current debuffs, we might as well spam attack techs.

[UnLucky]

I want to see speed (de)buffs as well as the typical wider area and longer durations.

I've always liked playing support in games, but when everyone's buffed and healed up, I help out with damage output as best I can. Ya don't just take a break

[ThePendragon]

Basically all that needs to happen is:

1) More support buffs and debuffs.
2) Much larger AoE.
3) ???
4) Profit!

[Kondibon]

Thing about Zalure and Jellen is, the ranger class already have Weak Bullets (weakening defense) and Jellen shot.
Nevertheless I would welcome both techs, because they are useful, if your party is caught in multiple emergency codes like attack and duel, which seem to be quite common in the mines.Yeah, like I said, it seems that rangers have a lot or support type stuff. Which is tempting me to go with ranger/techer if subclasses work the way I think they will.


Basically all that needs to happen is:

1) More support buffs and debuffs.
2) Much larger AoE.
3) ???
4) Profit!
'xactly


I've always liked playing support in games, but when everyone's buffed and healed up, I help out with damage output as best I can. Ya don't just take a break
Yeah, that's usually what I do too, but because I'm not focusing on a particular element on my skill tree my damage output is likely going to be lower in the long run than other forces.

[Saffran]

I don't want to be too cynical, but the force buffs are not good enough. I didn't try it out so I don't know if the following is possible or not, but you're better off leaving some money in the Camp Ship so thta they can buy a Shifta Drink. The effect lasts for the whole of the mission anyway.

[Kondibon]

I don't want to be too cynical, but the force buffs are not good enough. I didn't try it out so I don't know if the following is possible or not, but you're better off leaving some money in the Camp Ship so thta they can buy a Shifta Drink. The effect lasts for the whole of the mission anyway.
I'm asking if you think it will improve. I already know playing support right now isn't that great.

[GoldenFalcon]

I don't want to be too cynical, but the force buffs are not good enough. I didn't try it out so I don't know if the following is possible or not, but you're better off leaving some money in the Camp Ship so thta they can buy a Shifta Drink. The effect lasts for the whole of the mission anyway.

Shifta Drink and Shifta stack
Also, Shifta has a higher bonus for people with high attack stats on their mag, and the attack skills on their skill tree
Because of this, powerful weapons and Fury Stance (or Photon Flare) do not benefit from Shifta

Unless I'm totally wrong

[mhjc]

I don't want to be too cynical, but the force buffs are not good enough. I didn't try it out so I don't know if the following is possible or not, but you're better off leaving some money in the Camp Ship so thta they can buy a Shifta Drink. The effect lasts for the whole of the mission anyway.

They last 30 minutes, and they stack with force buffs...

For the topic, I don't think it'll improve at all. The subclass thing will likely make the game even easier by giving everyone access to a variety of spells that will likely focus on more nukes instead of support skills, so more people will want to solo or just focus on damage.

I don't even need to support apart from healing to keep my party in the face of the enemy. My support role consists of reviving someone, healing when on the attack, and buffing with shifta (rarely deband). The rest is just nuking everything to death or using flinch spells to keep the enemy from attacking.

You limit yourself if you just focus on support, when you can support in better ways by simply staying on the offensive against targets.

[redroses]

If the PAs work like they did on PSU, they should change once they reach lv 11, 21 etc. and gain more range, give better stats and last way longer.
In PSU there were many people that played the pure support class Acrotecher. It had access to buffs, debuffs, a technic that gave you regen and could revive you, later on also got technics that gave even more protection against attacks and technics that would freeze, poison or shock enemies almost 100% of the time.

I think when the harder levels come and technics reach higher levels, support players will come very much in handy! I also plan on one day playing a supporter as soon as it brings more benefits. Currently it's not so much needed yet, especially with the support technics not having much range yet.

[GoldenFalcon]

Everyone compares these buffs to the level 31+ buffs in PSU
It would be funny to have Shifta cover an entire room though. Someone would have to be dead weight to not be in the room to get Shifta'd

[Demon-]

Hopefully when Ultimate mode comes the need for Forces will rise dramatically.

[Omega-z]

I play more of a Tank/buff (WT by PSU) role. Yeah don't do as much Damage, But as long as I'm scaling and doing damage I'm fine. It's nice to take less damage then a Hunter and still help the hunter's out.

Talis is great but it's not very good for support and too slow for it (with other issue's). It really shines for it's fast normal attack's with slightly higher Affixing SE's, fast normal casting, Going though target to add more said SE's, going around foe's/object's, and being able to tech at a distance (mostly offensive).

like Demon said wait until Ult where the support and Talis will be much more useful.

and oh you don't need the four tick ether, You have the quick for 30 sec. or the full charged one for 1 min. (but you need to see the elemental action before release and not the sound or the light spark otherwise you get a shorter time) and the boost gives 10% (lv.10 disc) of what you have so the higher you have the better the result's. and yes Shifta/Deband EX's last 30 min's not the whole mission. They do stack on top of each other for a boost of another 10% so you get a 20% boost for 1 min. And shifta add's the 200 TP of Photon flare (well it did in CBT) , This might of changed but it should work like if you added 30 TP to your weapon using a Affix like a Soul. Oh, Side note Photon add's the normal card attack of the Talis too.

[Flame]

I don't want to be too cynical, but the force buffs are not good enough. I didn't try it out so I don't know if the following is possible or not, but you're better off leaving some money in the Camp Ship so thta they can buy a Shifta Drink. The effect lasts for the whole of the mission anyway.

absolutely this. Enemies die so fast that support spells are basically useless; even shifta doesn't raise atp dramatically enough to be worth it. The game is such a chaotic flurry of combos and explosions that there is little to no strategy or co-operation involved. Sega has made it so that each class is basically a tank. This makes sense when you consider that enemy positions will often vary so much from player to player that coordinating strikes would be super unproductive. Which isn't bad by default, it's only cumbersome if you're looking to take on more of a strategic support role. The more I play the more I realize that everything has been somewhat homogenized. The only major difference left is how exactly you choose to deal out damage.

Although it is nice when every once in a while, classes do have a clear unique function. For example when Breedas shoot their spores, it is absolutely the ranger's job to kill them before they make it to the ground. More of this sega!

[Hosaka]

As a Hunter with terribad dodging and blocking skills, I happen to regard support Forces VERY highly. :V

Granted, I've only ever met like... two of them, but running with those people is an absolute joy.

[Kondibon]

As a Hunter with terribad dodging and blocking skills, I happen to regard support Forces VERY highly. :V

Granted, I've only ever met like... two of them, but running with those people is an absolute joy.

That reminds me... and I know it's gonna sound a bit selfish, but when I play as a hunter or ranger and get hurt... forces never seem to bother to heal me, even after a fight with trash mobs is over. I mean, I can understand not wanting to "babysit" people, but just about every force has resta, why not use it and save your party the Mates... I know I do. >:

[GoldenFalcon]

That reminds me... and I know it's gonna sound a bit selfish, but when I play as a hunter or ranger and get hurt... forces never seem to bother to heal me, even after a fight with trash mobs is over. I mean, I can understand not wanting to "babysit" people, but just about every force has resta, why not use it and save your party the Mates... I know I do. >:

I spend all of my PP spamming Rage Dance, sorry

jk

[Blackheart521]

I very much appreciate a support/healing force in a group... it upsets me when there is a force in the party and my health is critical and they just keep on shooting off their attack spells while I drink down mates... It's a role that they are made for so they should be using it to their best ability though the lag of teleporting characters makes it harder for them to do their job sadly. ^^;

BTW, hunter if you couldn't tell by my sig already haha.

[GoldenFalcon]

I very much appreciate a support/healing force in a group... it upsets me when there is a force in the party and my health is critical and they just keep on shooting off their attack spells while I drink down mates... It's a role that they are made for so they should be using it to their best ability though the lag of teleporting characters makes it harder for them to do their job sadly. ^^;

BTW, hunter if you couldn't tell by my sig already haha.

Don't take damage
I'm sure there are a good amount of forces that would spit at you for saying they should be your heal bot.
However, a good amount of forces are also the most considerate and helpful people ever that chase down people at low health

[gigawuts]

The thing is, Sega's made a very very bad move with Force balance. They are simultaneously THE burst damage class, THE AOE class, and THE healing class. Ranger is a stand-in for the first two, but the Force still does those things best.

This means that the highest short term damage class in the game is also the healing class - a force that's healing is a force that's not hurting, and v.v. This is just awful game design. While you might see a cane icon by someone's name, you have NO way of knowing what they're there to do. With the gun or sword icons you know what to expect, but now forces are two radically different roles in one and no matter what people will hate you for not being the role they expect.

[UnLucky]

After having everyone run away from me as I'm charging, run through my card as it's blasting (standing right next to the AoE), or immediately eating an item after any sort of damage...

I've pretty much stopped trying to heal anyone. Unless I'm in front of them as we've been walking for a bit while they're really low and have no intention of taking a break, I'll give them a tick of resta. If I'm not at max health.

Nobody wants a support force.

[Blackheart521]

Don't take damage
I'm sure there are a good amount of forces that would spit at you for saying they should be your heal bot.
However, a good amount of forces are also the most considerate and helpful people ever that chase down people at low health

I understand the whole "don't get hit" thing, but it is easier said than done, a simple fact is you WILL get hit from time to time, healing teammates is a capability that forces have, hell I'm jealous of them simply for them having resta, and it's a damn shame to see forces who take that awesome spell for granted. Resta is the shit haha and that's why I appreciate healer forces, simple as that. ^^;

[GoldenFalcon]

THE burst damage class, THE AOE class, and THE healing class. Ranger is a stand-in for the first two, but the Force still does those things best.

Well, I can't agree that Force beats weakpoint bullet
And launcher, although slow, can still do 3 times the damage compared to a spell, which means one launcher PA can do enough damage to outright kill anything in the blast

I would make a reference to Eve Online, but I don't think anyone on this board knows of it

[Lulufia]

I love supporting parties as a force, definitely helps if you keep a Talis on you, just don't expect to play pure support and just blow things up when the hunters/rangers don't need healing. :)


EDIT: also managing to heal a hunter to full and get off a deband as one gets grabbed by a rockbear = awesome.

[redroses]

I have to agree with gigawuts. The problem is that Forces can have too many roles. Of course they can use Resta, but so often it ends with hunting people down with resta, then they run out of the resta circle and don't get all the heal pulses, which would make me have to cast Resta again. And then when the next mobs pop up I have to spent the first seconds regaining pp.
It would be so much easier if there was a supporter class. I like supporting, but I also like being a full damage force and sometimes I don't feel like mixing both.

[Rika-chan]

After having everyone run away from me as I'm charging, run through my card as it's blasting (standing right next to the AoE), or immediately eating an item after any sort of damage...

I've pretty much stopped trying to heal anyone. Unless I'm in front of them as we've been walking for a bit while they're really low and have no intention of taking a break, I'll give them a tick of resta. If I'm not at max health.

Nobody wants a support force.

That's how it is for me too :/

[drizzle]

Level 1-10 support techs were worthless in PSO and PSU too.