Too harsh: grinding and transfering

[DonMakaveli]

Anyone else thinks grinding and transfering abilities is too harsh in this game? not to say hard as **** and makes you wanna commit suicide. I had a tigredor +8 and stupid as i am i've said today is the day i'll get you to +10, after 30 grinds is sitting at +3, got no past +6.. Everytime i have even the slightest chance of losing grinds i always lose the max ammount possible.

2 slot vol wings to add a third ability, all 3 abilities with 75% chance each, 3 of them failed.. if i remember my probabilities right the chance of the 3 of them fail would be 1/64 as each % is independent of the others, that means i'm extremely unlucky i guess..

At the same time if i'm trying to add a soul with 50% chance everytime i need to try to transfer it at least 4 to 5 times.

Either i'm really unlucky at this, or there's def some calculation mistake on the system, i don't see the chances that they shows us to be equal to the calculations that's actually made on the system.

Does anyone else thinks the system needs some adjustment of some kind? We can all argue how it's just a row of bad luck, or some smart ass comment about the npc, but by now i really feel there's something shady on the system..

[The Walrus]

It needs major changes. Almost everyone seems to agree.

RNG Rant thread > http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198861

[Sizustar]

No, I think it's fine as it is, and is more lenient then other MMORPG upgrade system.
Which can and has included item breaking(Either disappear, or require a Cash item to recover) and the chance isn't that low, and with the right Soul combonation, it's possible to raise the chance to higher then normal.

[IndigoNovember]

It certainly is bad percentage wise, but the outcome of failing a grind could be much worse. If I remember correctly, in PSU when you failed a grind, your weapon broke.

[Zorafim]

Grinding common items is fine. I had an alright time with my 5*s, and I had a huge power upgrade when I got them to +10 after spending less than 100k on each. Rare items, though, I seem to spend a ton of time, grinders, and money on. Really makes me think twice about upgrading my equipment, considering all I get is a boost to dex most of the time.

Abilities, I haven't even touched upon. I don't even know how to get them to work, and I hear nothing but painful things about them.

[Coatl]

No, I think it's fine as it is, and is more lenient then other MMORPG upgrade system.
Which can and has included item breaking(Either disappear, or require a Cash item to recover) and the chance isn't that low, and with the right Soul combonation, it's possible to raise the chance to higher then normal.

This. At least your weapon isn't destroyed, or goes from +9 to +0 in one fail.

Also, 30 grinds are nothing. I've wasted 200 grinds and about 300k on my trigedor just to get it from +8 back to +8 after falling so low. I know people who've spent 1mil to get their rares to +10.

But I managed to get my *9 talis and launcher to +10 with one or two fails. It's all RNG.

[Valkyrie Lovrina]

the affixing is a whole different story though. I really would prefer that if I successfully transferred a Vol Soul to a weapon, it stays on the weapon until I overwrite it. I don't like how if I fail adding another ability that it blanks the entire weapons ability's :nono:. I just don't see the point in having up to 8 slots if you can't even get past 3. also, they need the ability to give an elementless weapon an element and change the current element grinding to using any weapon as fodder as long as they have the same element. why should I have to use 30 Tarnada's to buff 1 Tarnada? did they not count in some weapons rarity?

just my two cents.

[jooozek]

Let's wait till they roll out the over 9 stars weapons, I just hope those won't break instead of lowering the stages.

[Dinosaur]

why should I have to use 30 Tarnada's to buff 1 Tarnada? did they not count in some weapons rarity?

For high profile rares, players use these.

"Attribute Enhance +5% / 属性強化＋５％" - Increase elemental attribute by 5%

It might cost a mil or two depending on your server.

[DonMakaveli]

No, I think it's fine as it is, and is more lenient then other MMORPG upgrade system.
Which can and has included item breaking(Either disappear, or require a Cash item to recover) and the chance isn't that low, and with the right Soul combonation, it's possible to raise the chance to higher then normal.

Just because other MMORPG's are even worst doesn't mean this one is right, if you think it's fine as it is i don't even know what to think about that, either you are really lucky, you don't even touch the system.

Indigo, sure but that's also why i left psu lol

Coatl again if you've been there i don't know how can you say it's fine, just because it's not that bad doesn't mean it's good.

I work on software development and i can assure you there's no method to generate truly random numbers, most times we use a seed system to get the best outcome on random numbers and still they aren't as random as they should be, my bet is pso random number generator is poorly designed

[gigawuts]

Yeah seriously, PSU being worse does not somehow make this system good at all.

I quit PSU early on for a variety of reasons - the god fucking awful crafting and grinding system was pretty high on the list.

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah, I'm with Don here. "Everyone else is worse!" is no reason to tolerate terrible design.

Grinding rares is pretty much terrible. You're either lucky and get it within your first 20 tries (lol, that's REALLY lucky in my view, which says something about how bad the odds are), or you spend 100+ grinders and hundreds of thousands (millions if you buy your grinders) of meseta and don't even manage to get past +7. This is largely because the RNG system is HORRIBLE, but also because the odds are just heavily stacked against you, which lends to a huge sense of futility to anyone without an iron will.

This is only compacted by the fact that rares are simply not better than uncommons until they are heavily ground, creating a sense that it is a necessity to grind that rare if you actually want to use it in combat.

The affix system, too... just too much bad randomness, and the odds are so ridiculously low. I know they want to get items out of the economy, but is it really worth this much player discomfort (and outright rage in some cases)?

[Acel]

I agree its terrible. Using those % boosting/-1/-0 items dont really help much as Ive used quite a number of them already (AC).

But has anyone noticed? Many "japanese" players seem to have tons of perfect +10 rare weapons in their personal shops with the appropriate soul and some kind of Power/Shoot/Tech III ability along with it. Ive checked my server records and a total of less than 300 Knight lancers has dropped since the game started but this one person has one that is +10, 25 element and has a War soul and Power III on it(eventhough all wikis state only the Rockbear on hard mode drops it) along with a full range of other rare weapons with souls that are very hard to combine. All +10, all perfect.

If anyone who is curious and is on Ship 8, search for this player called Leisia and see for yourself.

[Leyline]

I personally have wasted millions.
Combining soul + whatever level 2 (x3)

As well as soul + whatever level 2 + effect level 2

Even though the %s always say 60-80, 1 or 2 always fails off.

There must be either a trick or hack, because if I check any random Japanese player 9 out of 10 of them have soul + level 3 on nearly every piece they have, as well as 50% element on 8 and 9 star weapons.

[blace]

This probably goes to show that Sega is probably relying on this method to get their playerbase to shell out more for better chances.

[Sizustar]

I personally have wasted millions.
Combining soul + whatever level 2 (x3)

As well as soul + whatever level 2 + effect level 2

Even though the %s always say 60-80, 1 or 2 always fails off.

There must be either a trick or hack, because if I check any random Japanese player 9 out of 10 of them have soul + level 3 on nearly every piece they have, as well as 50% element on 8 and 9 star weapons.

Actually, those player are usually "famous" through their blog, so their supporter will give them grinders, and such.

[Coatl]

It's the affix transfering system and the grinding of weapons that is the second largest money sink in PSO2. If they made it even easier, everyone would have +10 *9 weapons with 4 good affixes on them.

Are you pulling your hairs out of your head over it? Yes, it's suppose to make you feel that way. That's what reels in the $$$. Every MMO has something similar to this, but with harsher consequences and less mercy. The only thing PSO2 doesn't do is make you grind rares to +10 with good affixes and have the most optimal gear in the game. In other MMOs, if you didn't have the best gear you'd struggle through the gameplay.

[Leyline]

Actually, those player are usually "famous" through their blog, so their supporter will give them grinders, and such.

9 out of 10 players on ship 7 is a famous Japanese player I seriously doubt it.

[gigawuts]

Watch as I fix the whole thing while keeping it as a money sink

Step 1: Replace RNG with very high price tag
Step 2: Replace +5% AC items with -5% cost AC items

all done

[Sizustar]

Watch as I fix the whole thing while keeping it as a money sink

Step 1: Replace RNG with very high price tag
Step 2: Replace +5% AC items with -5% cost AC items

all done

Share your idea with Sega, not just PSO-World.
https://ssl.pso2.jp/players/support/inquiry/?mode=opinion

Although I think leaving it on Sakai's blog is better, as he does read the comment, and allows those that he "approve" to appear.

[Coatl]

Watch as I fix the whole thing while keeping it as a money sink

Step 1: Replace RNG with very high price tag
Step 2: Replace +5% AC items with -5% cost AC items

all done

The very high price tag will scare off more customers than the very cheap RNG.
It's not like SEGA is pulling this system out of their asses. They know how to make money, and they are taking advantage of it very much.

[gigawuts]

Oh, I've spent years proposing ideas to game companies. It basically never amounts to anything. I'm sure I'm not the first to think of it either.

Also I really cba putting stuff into google translate and trying to make it make sense. Maybe someone who speaks Japanese could do it?

edit:

The very high price tag will scare off more customers than the very cheap RNG.
It's not like SEGA is pulling this system out of their asses. They know how to make money, and they are taking advantage of it very much.

Because losing millions of meseta after Sega's RNG decides it doesn't like you doesn't scare customers away? The difference is one is up front and fully informs you, the other takes all your meseta and still doesn't let you know how much more it'll cost. Then you're broke and your weapon is very possibly worse than before.

Ramp up the cost at better stuff, leave moderate bonuses and stuff cheap. Improve 7* rare grind rates. Maybe link grind and affix cost to number of items sold in the player shops, or average price. I wonder how many players bought a 2k meseta daylight scar, then spent the rest of their newbie wallet trying to improve it and promptly signed out.

The system as it is is utter fucking BS and you know it. Don't try to justify it by saying "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE MAD SO YOU SPEND MONIES." I can think up plenty of systems that get players to pay up without draining their wallets of tens, perhaps hundreds of hours of work.

[Yunfa]

If all those "9/10" Japanese players can get +10 Soul + Power/Shoot/Technique III on their units, what prevents the rest of us able to obtain it? The real question is instead of making the game easy (where one would want to expect getting to the best results within the first few tries,) what are the JP players doing that players without the good equips aren't? Think that the core concept of obtaining good equips instead of just complaining.

[Zyrusticae]

I somehow doubt a fair-but-pricey system would scare off more customers than the current, absolute bullshit RNG-based system that fucks over as many customers as it serves.

Funny thing is, because of the way the affix system works, the items would still be disappearing in enormous quantities even if they raised the percentages to all be very close to 100%. The baseline would simply change - instead of 3 abilities being really, really good, it'd be a higher number of abilities, with a correspondingly high number of items being destroyed to create such items.

Fortunately, you never, ever actually need a full set of items with soul + tech/power/shoot III on them. Still... so much rage. So much.

[Yunfa]

Still... so much rage. So much.

Protip: put all of that energy from raging towards farming, and maybe, JUST maybe you'll find that elusive weapon thats worth 5mill+

[Deadleewar]

I personally like to see what my goal is before I embark on a journey to complete it.

So in saying so I would much rather see an 11 million meseta bill for a top level grind/affix than to just hope that the system doesn't f*** me over. It's more depressing to have something and lose it than it is to never have had it in the first place.

[gigawuts]

Give me a price tag that is 2, 3, even 4 times the average cost to randomly affix or grind something.

I will save up for it.

I have failed 12 soul affixes in a row. Twelve. Twelve. The odds were well below 99% of that happening - yet it did. And you know what? The odds on the next one are still just 50%! That was just the longest streak too, out of 50 attempts I've only succeeded around 4 times. On a 50 percent fucking chance affix.

Want to know why I'm angry about the RNG in this game? That's why. I've shelled out in excess of 2.5 million meseta trying to grind 8* rares and still have yet to reach +10. That's WELL BEYOND the average cost.

Give me a price. I will pay it. Fuck the RNG, fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it. In no game should one person be screwed hard over and over with no ability to do anything about it besides play more or not play at all.

[Zyrusticae]

Protip: put all of that energy from raging towards farming, and maybe, JUST maybe you'll find that elusive weapon thats worth 5mill+
Over four hundred hours... only worthwhile rares found are one Garland and one Tigredor. That's it. Two rares in over four hundred hours of gameplay.

But that's not even what I'm complaining about here. It's the rare grinding (lol at failing over 50 times on a 7* rare) and the affix system (failing FIVE TIMES IN A ROW on a 50% chance?! Edit: ohlol Gigawuts totally beat that in spades, damn dude) that really grate on my nerves, and the only fix to that is just... not... caring.

I'm sorry I am incapable of simply not caring.

[KrankItVZ]

Considering that it doesn't destroy your target item like most MMOs. Yes its perfectly fine... Even though I do want the % to be abit higher from +9 to +10

[Heat Haze]

Spent about 5 Million Meseta on my Cruel Coffin having it grinded to +10 and having the affixes I wanted on it.

Spent 400k meseta, got Ragne Soul, Technic III, and Mutation on Garland. 550k meseta, got Vol Soul, Power III, and Mutation on Patty Lumeria. Both of those costs including the cost to grind them to +10.

The RNG is pretty stupid, I agree. And causes much frustration. But at least your weapon doesn't break, or get lost.

[Ceresa]

So in saying so I would much rather see an 11 million meseta bill for a top level grind/affix than to just hope that the system doesn't f*** me over. It's more depressing to have something and lose it than it is to never have had it in the first place.


Give me a price tag that is 2, 3, even 4 times the average cost to randomly affix or grind something.

I will save up for it.

This already exists, it's called the player shops, no reason to take away the thrill of gambling to add nothing.

And seeing as there's no shortage of people with attack 3 + soul, or +10 weapons for sale, and no shortage of people profiting off them... the problem isn't the system.


http://wikiwiki.asia/pso2/index.php?%B6%AF%B2%BD
The success rates of grinding might interest some people (assuming this link works).

That's not success rate, that's the amount the base stats are multiplied by at that grind level.

[gigawuts]

Really? The player shops have the affixes I want on a weapon with lucky rise? Also, I said 2, 3, even 4 times the average price, not 10.

Oh, and, when a system is set up where the RNG permits a player to simply fall through the cracks, yes the system is flawed. A make-or-break system should never be implemented in a video game where failing means being broke and ruining your weapon.

[Zyrusticae]

This already exists, it's called the player shops, no reason to take away the thrill of gambling to add nothing.

And seeing as there's no shortage of people with attack 3 + soul, or +10 weapons for sale, and no shortage of people profiting off them... the problem isn't the system.
Um, no, the simple fact is that some players get much, much luckier than others simply due to the nature of the Random Number Generator. This is indisputable fact. Some players get lucky rolls on their affixes or grinders and thus have to spend considerably less time and effort in building up their items. Others fail considerably more often and have to spend astronomically higher quantities of time getting these things to stick.

This is particularly bad because the RNG system the game uses is naturally prone to streaks, meaning some players may very well have no choice but to buy pre-ground items from other players (which are usually marked up considerably from the actual cost of grinding and affixing it themselves, particularly as they're usually in the upper bound of the RNG curve).

[DonMakaveli]

I don't quite like using this word but i think Coatl is just being a fan boy defending a system that clearly has fails.

Gigawuts system seems pretty good while it would have to be carefully thought as it could sink the whole market scheme, in a couple of months +10 rares would be valued to next to nothing due to the high number of +10's selling.

The whole system would be ok if you could use multiple -1 risk items maybe to a max of 2? and if those were uncommon drops and not million cost items.

Shit as far as i'm concerned they could even lower the odds and give us the chance to use multiple risk protection items and they would be uncommon drops.

The problem of the whole system is not "oh i can't get it to +10", I doubt anyone would seriously complain about trying over and over again to grind weapons even failing all the time if they could avoid the risk, the problem is "oh f it just went from +8 to +5 from +5 to +3 from +3 to oh i got no more money". They need to release risk protection items as uncommon drops and allow us to use more than one, either that or improve the odds of success or decrease the odds of losing grinds.

My solution, (Which i would like to see and i think it's the most fair not doing any damage to the game itself)

Increase Grinding costs by 2 or 3 times
Release risk protection items as uncommon drops
Allow the use of at least 2 risk protection items at once.
Lower success odds (seems fair?)

[Miyoko]

That's not success rate, that's the amount the base stats are multiplied by at that grind level.
Oh, was it? My translator worded in a way that made it seem like it was. My bad!

... Although, it does seem awfully accurate as the success rate too, don'tcha think? :p

[gigawuts]

Gigawuts system seems pretty good while it would have to be carefully thought as it could sink the whole market scheme, in a couple of months +10 rares would be valued to next to nothing due to the high number of +10's selling.

Hardly. Weapons would be priced at or above what it cost to grind them. Rares are account-bound, so no worrying about that. Even with uncommons, the market would reach equilibrium after a while.

Oh, and, PSO1's "economy" (lol) had loads of common cheap rares which already performed at nearly their best. All they needed was some grinding which...never ever ever cost you all your photon drops.

[DonMakaveli]

Hardly. Weapons would be priced at or above what it cost to grind them. Rares are account-bound, so no worrying about that. Even with uncommons, the market would reach equilibrium after a while.

Oh, and, PSO1's "economy" (lol) had loads of common cheap rares which already performed at nearly their best. All they needed was some grinding which...never ever ever cost you all your photon drops.

I'm not so sure about that as imo as the markets get filled with +10 weapons their price will drop drastically even tho' they might cost way more to get to +10 than the selling price.

I think with my solution getting +10 weapons would be just as hard if not harder but it would also avoid the frustration of losing grinds. Again my point is not how getting +10 should be easier, my point is that the risks are too severe for the user. Risk protection items should be uncommon drops

[gigawuts]

When people realize they can't turn a profit they'll simply stop spending money making +10 rares to sell. It's really as easy as that.

I do like your idea of making grind protection cheap. Hell, fuck it, leave the system as-is, but bring back Mono, Di, and Trigrinders in the form of grind protectors. Bam, done. No more losing 3 grinds or ANY grinds if you use the protector (which would have to be FAR cheaper than it is now). I'd be totally fine losing out on a grind if it didn't mean risking paying out to watch my weapon slowly go back down to +2. That alone would appease my bottomless pit of rage.

edit: I appear to have made a typo. I said "risking" paying out to watch my weapon slowly go back down to +2. I obviously meant "definitely."

[Coatl]

I don't quite like using this word but i think Coatl is just being a fan boy defending a system that clearly has fails.


You know, maybe you're right. I wouldn't call myself a “fan boy” because I'm not fond of the system entirely, but I am most pleased with this system because it gives us the most mercy. You don't have to buy a grinder for 50k meseta, they go for 3k. Grinding the best *9 equips only costs like 6.8k, and there isn't a chance to fail it until +2, or +3. And about Affix transferring, there are tricks and loops you can perform to make it easier for you. Some people are oblivious to these tricks and end up spending more than they would have if they had just educated themselves in affix transferring.

Saying that this system fails is relative. What are you comparing it to that makes this system fail? I'm comparing this to something physical: the RNG of the majority of MMOs. Will both the grinding mechanics of PSO2 and grinding mechanics of other MMOs cause people to rage? Hell yes. But unlike you, the people playing Tera, WoW, or GW2 had to go through an RNG crafting their weapon with the risk of losing all their materials in failure, and an RNG every time they grinded their weapons with the risk of it being completely destroyed upon failure. So what’s the ultimate difference between the RNG of PSO2 and many other big name MMOs? It takes less time and stress to get what you don’t even need in PSO2.

Honestly, if you can't handle not having the best *9 rares in the game at +10, then pick up a common and save yourself the trouble. Rares weren't meant for you.

[gigawuts]

Nobody's saying to make getting +10 cheap or easy. We're saying to stop having a system where chance determines who gets what and how much it will cost.

Getting +10 may cost Person A only 400k. It may just as easily cost Person B 5m. Person C may spend 10m and still not have it before giving up and getting a new weapon in the next update because they spent the entire month trying and failing.

Maybe make it so it fails just as often, but doesn't get worse. Maybe make it so we can buy the next level outright. I don't know, or care, just stop turning my fucking +9 weapon into +2 and making it cost 600k to get back to +9. I may well not have 600k next time, and it shouldn't be a prerequisite to have millions upon millions of meseta just to even attempt grinding when it could easily cost 300k.

[SaiKo]

Nobody's saying to make getting +10 cheap or easy.

I'd be cool with that actually...
Maybe just have... say... 3 levels of grinders that raise the grind level by a set amount each... Then maybe just drop all of these types of grinders through normal gameplay... And perhaps we could do away with the whole (+1Ø) cap and give each item its own characteristic max grind while we're at it?...

I'd say that's a perfectly good system. Why has no one ever thought of that!?
>_>
<_<

[Coatl]

Because it's too easy.. :c
Nothing's that easy.

[gigawuts]

Except...that system.

Put all the work in FINDING the weapon again and make them truly unique!

Sigh, I know I'm sounding like a nostalgic fanboy again.

[Vashyron]

RNG.

You know very well if you have a weapon at +8 you could find yourself back to +3, but it's like you just have to take the risk because you must have everything +10.

When I'm grinding rares I just ask myself, is it worth it? I normally stop at around +7/8 with rare weapons, I don't find the need to potentially blow 300K or even more just so I can potentially do maybe 4% more damage. I could get lucky sure, but the odds are against me and I rather not needlessly gamble.

Same goes for affixes.

[ShinMaruku]

It's not harsh it's luck and luck is bullshit. There should be a way to have certainty maybe the US version will have that. Asia sure loves that roulette stuff.

[KEV1N]

I hate the system for adding abilities.

[Bael]

ya, It's easier for me to use the shops and Buy what I want - then to do the abilities thing.
I am HIGHLY UNLUCKY with the whole thing. I've tried multiple ways of doing things, Still can't get anything without a 100% rate to stick. My record stands at 18 fails on 85% chance to put a soul on. Yup, using the FUN items don't help either.

But on the flip side, I've only ever used a max of 20 grinders to +10 9* stuff.

Because some of us EPIC FAIL and some are GODLY at this....maybe there is an underlying
stat or bracket people fit it. Much like the SECTION ID of PSO1.

[Enforcer MKV]

A lot of the systems in this game rely on pure luck and blowing money, be it real or virtual.

That's part of the problem, I think. Just getting a set of clothing you want relies on luck, predominately. And I know a probable reason for why Dodo seems so stacked against players; He's a time and meseta sink. If he ruins your weapon, you're gonna want to try and fix it. So you spend more time playing trying to find affixes, and earn money, and you spend more time playing. That's the thought train behind these kinds of systems usually, anyway.

I'm not saying that it turns out that way - Hell, more often than that, I just avoid the system. (Though he has been very kind to me with unit grinding. :D) I'll buy things off the shops for +10.

[Coatl]

That's part of the problem, I think. Just getting a set of clothing you want relies on luck, predominately. And I know a probable reason for why Dodo seems so stacked against players; He's a time and meseta sink. If he ruins your weapon, you're gonna want to try and fix it. So you spend more time playing trying to find affixes, and earn money, and you spend more time playing. That's the thought train behind these kinds of systems usually, anyway.



But that's how all RPG games are. Not MMOs, but every single RPG game has something like that.

[Saffran]

Bael > you need more than 20 grinders to go from 0 to +10, even if you succeed every time. You probably meant tries?

I agree about the premise, the RNG has an inherent flaw. I've read some gruesome accounts. As an old player myself, I'm very concerned about the player's gaming experience - and the RNG in this game is horrible.

I feel like the system was designed with the high end items down the road in mind - problem is, we don't have them. Maybe in 2 years we'll have +20% success rate items or heck, even +50%, why not? But right now we don't, and they cost money (actually, you only get them when you don't expect them, right? Or can you actually specifically buy them? I'll go check).

As for grinding, I share a bit of the frustration, but at least it's only up to +10.

Also, while we're on the subject of affix and grinding, I could create a Blow/ResistII combining 3 Blow/ResistI but I can't seem to be able to create a Mind/ResistII (I haven't tried Shot/ResistII). maybe race/gender/section ID still do play a role?

[Zyrusticae]

But that's how all RPG games are. Not MMOs, but every single RPG game has something like that.

Um... no. Not even close.

Maybe Korean-style MMOs all do, but you won't see such a system in any Western RPG (and for damn good reason, at that).

Even then, the method of implementation varies wildly between games.

Aion's, for example, allows you to minimize the chance of failure by using supplements and really high-level enhancement stones. With just a high enough level stone, you could get the chance of failure down to 25% - using the best supplement brings this chance down to 10% (though the cost for the supplements is pretty obscene). Even when you fail, you NEVER go down more than one point at a time.

TERA's system varies depending on whether or not you're talking about the Korean or the Western versions (hmmm, I wonder why...). In the western system, failure does nothing to your weapon - you never, ever lose enhancements, ever. Instead, the item (alkahest) required to enhance an item past +6 costs obscene amounts of gold.

You know you're fucked when I'm looking back on Aion with more fondness. Seriously!

[DonMakaveli]

I think either mine or gigawuts suggested systems on previous pages would vanquish most if not all issues people have with grinding. Plus meseta doesn't come cheap in terms of time as SEGA said "hey let's screw most players and take the shop from them unless they pay", which is the most messed up thing about this game imo. People without shops that try to grind weapons spend a day to get 200k or 300k just to sink on grinding and probably end up in the same grind they were before starting, and now that most people are at level 40, you can literally say you wasted a day for NOTHING, no exp, no meseta, no better weapon, nothing at all.

It's easier when you got a shop and you have that extra cash flow, i'm tired of farming all day to get my tigredor back at +8 just because i took a chance at making it a +9 i'm not playing anymore today and it's sitting at +3 and i'm broke! So tomorrow i'll farm again and probably i'll end up at the same place so yeah this is super frustrating, the system def needs changes.

[Enforcer MKV]

But that's how all RPG games are. Not MMOs, but every single RPG game has something like that.

I don't have a problem with chance based systems. At least, ones that are fairly balanced and give the player options that don't include paying real money.

The problem I have is with the AC scratch, which is off topic, so I won't discuss that here.

The point of my post was more to explain the reasoning behind such systems to those who don't understand it. (Before people start asking about credentials; I'm studying to get into the games industry. I'm by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be. It was simply a base explanation.)

[Valymer]

Funny, I thought video games were a form of entertainment, and supposed to be fun.

There is nothing fun about this system.

And whoever is comparing this system to ANYTHING in WoW...lol at that.

[KEV1N]

Funny, I thought video games were a form of entertainment, and supposed to be fun.

There is nothing fun about this system.

I like you.

[DonMakaveli]

I like you.

x2. What people seem to fail to realize is that this is not a competitive game it's a PvE (Players vs Environment) not a PvP so there's no real reason to make a system so punishing.

[Zekester]

Honestly, I prefer the current Grinding system more than PSU terribad system.

the affixing is a whole different story though. I really would prefer that if I successfully transferred a Vol Soul to a weapon, it stays on the weapon until I overwrite it. I don't like how if I fail adding another ability that it blanks the entire weapons ability's :nono:. I just don't see the point in having up to 8 slots if you can't even get past 3. also, they need the ability to give an elementless weapon an element and change the current element grinding to using any weapon as fodder as long as they have the same element. why should I have to use 30 Tarnada's to buff 1 Tarnada? did they not count in some weapons rarity?

just my two cents.

This. All of this.

[GoldenFalcon]

Guys, we aren't meant to have the cake and eat 5 cakes with it
The game is easy enough as is. It's literally balanced around us having +6 weapons and 1 ability on our weapons and units. Us doing things with 90 to 95% failure chance, then complaining that the enemies die in 2 hits (and bosses in 30 seconds) is just funny to me

[Mike]

This probably goes to show that Sega is probably relying on this method to get their playerbase to shell out more for better chances.
Yup. Bow down to the almighty AC.

[origami21]

i don't really have a problem with grinding either. personally, i think no one should attempt to +9/10 rare without a grind protect anyways. they're like, 200k a pop on ship 10, which isn't really expensive at all.

i normally would +8 normally then grind protect all the way to +10. sure, it's much more expensive, but at least you don't downgrade if you fail.

once again, personally, i think the problem is that people are too eager to grind. ex. i'm gonna get this baby to+10, i'm feeling lucky! then they kept on grinding, even after a failing streak. personally i would stop grinding if i see a fail streak of 3 fails in a row.

maybe people should try holding themselves on the dreaded urge to grind first. ex.

-stop grinding after a failure,
-grind only if you have more than a certain amount of money,
-grind only if you have more than a certain amount of grinders,
-grind only if you have cleared a certain amount of missions after your last failure.
-grind only if you have a spare rare weapon of equal grind level.

may sound stupid, that helped me fight my urge to grind, and so far, i've got 3 rares to +10. sure i costs a lot of money, but those money spent are not "loss" because you never downgrade.

just thought i might share ;-)

[Coatl]

Um... no. Not even close.

Maybe Korean-style MMOs all do, but you won't see such a system in any Western RPG (and for damn good reason, at that).

Even then, the method of implementation varies wildly between games.

!

I meant that all RPGs implement a mechanic that usually extends the duration/longevity of the game, without adding anything to the gameplay. That's all Affixing and grinding are really: major time and meseta sinks. Though I guess that point is a bit unrelated eh.


Guys, we aren't meant to have the cake and eat 5 cakes with it
The game is easy enough as is. It's literally balanced around us having +6 weapons and 1 ability on our weapons and units. Us doing things with 90 to 95% failure chance, then complaining that the enemies die in 2 hits (and bosses in 30 seconds) is just funny to me

Thank you.

[Valymer]

I meant that all RPGs implement a mechanic that usually extends the duration/longevity of the game, without adding anything to the gameplay. That's all Affixing and grinding are really: major time and meseta sinks. Though I guess that point is a bit unrelated eh.

You are 100% right about this, but the problem is that the PSO2 timesinks are apparently not all that fun to quite a few people. While all games have timesinks, the best games are designed well enough to make you overlook or even forget that fact that they are, in fact, timesinks.

As someone else mentioned, the lack of anything else at all to do other than farm meseta/rares makes the game pretty one-dimensional. There's nothing else to do if you get bored farming, which is not a good thing and in my opinion, it is not good design. However, that's just my opinion, and even though I feel that way, I am still playing for now.

I don't really agree with the argument that the game just came out, and that's why it lacks content. That's a fairly poor excuse in my opinion. With such a low level cap combined with the aforementioned lack of supplementary content, it will become more and more of a problem as time goes on.

The only thing offsetting this is the (for now) frequent updates, for which I am very grateful and appreciative. It is keeping me playing for now, at least.

[Enforcer MKV]

I meant that all RPGs implement a mechanic that usually extends the duration/longevity of the game, without adding anything to the gameplay. That's all Affixing and grinding are really: major time and meseta sinks. Though I guess that point is a bit unrelated eh.

First off, I would like to applaud you for swimming against the current on this topic; that isn't something everyone can do. I think that's commendable, internet or not.

Second; I'm not really playing sides here, I just thought this would be interesting to throw out for discussion. Let us suppose, for the time being, that most of the people playing are doing this for enjoyment. Now, as it's been shown, a chunk of posters here don't find this system enjoyable at all. A successful sink, at least in my opinion, is one that the player can enjoy using while still fulfilling it's original purpose. As this thread has so far shown, following my definition, dodo is performing....less than adequately to many people. The point behind this, Coatl, is to get your views on this.

In all seriousness; suppose you had the ability to overhaul the system. What would you change and what would you keep?

[Kylie]

I have good luck with grinding for some reason, and I'm very glad weapons don't break like they did in PSU (that just made me fucking sad). I kinda think grinding should be hard to do as long as there's a decent difference between no grind and +10, and I think there is.

[TetsuyaHikari]

There are no words to describe the pain Dudu has caused me and my fellow man.

http://i.imgur.com/SOZMF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XEWEM.jpg

[Crystal_Shard]

@Enforcer MKX: The question wasn't directed at me, but I'll take a stab at it. XD

Current System

Find weapon
Rejoice
Curse that your affixes are wrong
Attempt to change affixes
Curse Dodo for making things worse
Try grinding to ease the pain of failing affixing
Rejoice as things go well
Curse Dodo for making things worse and failing all of the later grinds


The problem right now is that all roads lead to cursing Dodo and his growing meseta pile/pile of crushed enemy souls/stockpile of weapons he pretended to break/etc. Most of that is also related to Dodo making things worse.

If there's any one tweak that might work for Sega to make Dodo more palatable, I'd say just adding one new item to the AC store, "Restore Weapon to Last State" and a less powerful version to the FUN Scratch would do wonders to reducing frustrations. To lower the possibility of breaking the market, the item would have a low-mid success rate, but conversely, the weapon/unit in question would retain the memory of the previous affixes it had unless you try to start from the beginning again.

I don't think this would work much for grinding though, short of following the suggestion of making it extremely expensive to reach the later grind levels, but with a near 100% rate.

---

Thinking about it a little, doesn't Dodo look just a little too similar to a certain PSIV NPC called Seth? (Similar mop of hair/mustache/etc) And remembering who Seth was in the end...

...

If Sega does eventually reveal that Dodo is a humanoid Dark Falz in future, I will be very happy. Most especially for the chance to beat him up finally.

Kidding aside, I stick to a strict diet of grinding only up to a max of +5, hoarding all the soul items I find, keeping my expense in a single receipt to a few hundred thousand at most, and most importantly, affixing up to 3-4 slots with dummy affixes, and then only attempt a Soul/Mutation affix. Most importantly, I never perform another re-affix on a weapon once I get it up to a state that I'm satisfied with. Keeps my sanity more or less intact. I'm not blowing all my resources on any current level gear, that's for sure - I'll leave that for gear that's a bit more end level.

Even with this diet, I still want to kill Dodo. He's the only thing currently standing between me and a properly affixed Salvadore +5 rod right now. :P

I'd never blow a million meseta at one go - Dodo just ain't worth it. I leave that honor to when I'm buying Crystal's latest outfit.

[ashley50]

There are no words to describe the pain Dudu has caused me and my fellow man.

http://i.imgur.com/SOZMF.jpg


Almost impossible to fail. But...yeah.

[Silver Crow]

Why don't you guys do what I did? Just buy 5 star weapons, grind to 10 (quite easy) and affix only 2 abilities? Im pretty sure doing the same on a rare weapon is much harder and getting more than 2 abilities is not worth losing the 2 abilities you have. If you get a 9-star weapon then just sell it. There will be a level cap raise soon anyway so make as much money as you can in my opinion.

What i'm gonna do is just farm with my maxed out 5-star weapons and sell all the rares i get in preparation for next patch and then just get the BiS rare and max it even if it costs 10 million meseta.

[Enforcer MKV]

Why don't you guys do what I did? Just buy 5 star weapons, grind to 10 (quite easy) and affix only 2 abilities? Im pretty sure doing the same on a rare weapon is much harder and getting more than 2 abilities is not worth losing the 2 abilities you have. If you get a 9-star weapon then just sell it. There will be a level cap raise soon anyway so make as much money as you can in my opinion.

What i'm gonna do is just farm with my maxed out 5-star weapons and sell all the rares i get in preparation for next patch and then just get the BiS rare and max it even if it costs 10 million meseta.

Honestly? I love my 5 star rifle right now. I bought it +10 with four slots on it. It's serving me faithfully - and probably will for some time, because I quite simply like it more than any of the rares released right now. I don't need a firearm, and I don't need that huge Tigre that everyone seems so happy to get. My Alba Laser is my mainstay - and it's gonna continue being my workhorse for a while, I think, despite the snide remarks I get for not going for ULTIMATE POWAH!

[ashley50]

Honestly? I love my 5 star rifle right now. I bought it +10 with four slots on it. It's serving me faithfully - and probably will for some time, because I quite simply like it more than any of the rares released right now. I don't need a firearm, and I don't need that huge Tigre that everyone seems so happy to get. My Alba Laser is my mainstay - and it's gonna continue being my workhorse for a while, I think, despite the snide remarks I get for not going for ULTIMATE POWAH!

I myself put most of my money on my アルバビーム set (4* ARs).

Its a little weaker than the Alva Laser, but I prefer it mainly for its "compactness".

I would go for the アルバレーザー, but I've already invested most of my monies in Alva Beams and It just looks too long for my preference.

[Valkyrie Lovrina]

Honestly, I prefer the current Grinding system more than PSU terribad system.

I wrote this when I was tired. I actually would prefer if they made the system more lenient on the player. I really dislike having to deal with the RNG.

[Enforcer MKV]

I myself put most of my money on my アルバビーム set (4* ARs).

Its a little weaker than the Alva Laser, but I prefer it mainly for its "compactness".

I would go for the アルバレーザー, but I've already invested most of my monies in Alva Beams and It just looks too long for my preference.

Indeed, the Beams definitely aren't slouches, and I can totally see the compactness argument. The thing with En is, he's running around in the Colossus set (Sans headpiece) so he's pretty big, and the beams just look plain weird on him, being so short. I Just think my Alba Lasers fit the look more. (Now if only I could get that 3* color scheme on them......)

[Zyrusticae]

Why don't you guys do what I did? Just buy 5 star weapons, grind to 10 (quite easy) and affix only 2 abilities? Im pretty sure doing the same on a rare weapon is much harder and getting more than 2 abilities is not worth losing the 2 abilities you have. If you get a 9-star weapon then just sell it. There will be a level cap raise soon anyway so make as much money as you can in my opinion.

What i'm gonna do is just farm with my maxed out 5-star weapons and sell all the rares i get in preparation for next patch and then just get the BiS rare and max it even if it costs 10 million meseta.
This is the reasonable thing to do, but I can't even get two affixes to stick on bloody common weapons! Either one fails, or the other, and very, very rarely do I ever get both.

I've failed so often on my 3* sword (3*!! WTF!!) that I've just about given up on it. Too much damn grief.

[FlameOfYagami]

Excuse me, but what does RNG stan for? I know i'm probably going to get flame and trolled to hell and back for asking but I had to do it =/

[The Walrus]

Random number generator

[Broken_L_button]

Having played games with similar, yet MUCH more fiendish gear grinding systems, I can get why some people find PSO2's system "good". It still doesn't excuse the fact that this current system still takes away a lot of the game's "fun" value. Copying the mechanics of other F2P games isn't a guarantee of success; if your players aren't having fun with a mechanic even though all the other games do it, they'll wound up leaving, hardcore fan or not.

As for my own experiences with this system, I've mainly brute forced my way through it and got both amazing successes (+10 rares, souls + rank2 and higher abilities on weapons and units) and soul crushing failures (failing to add an ability with a 85%+ chance of success multiple times in a row for example). In light of this, the only way to have it work for you is to throw money at it until it works, as often as possible while abusing a few tricks (having as many of the same affix as possible in the fodder pool, using AC items, abusing the crap out of mutation, etc.). And even then, you mileage may vary, which is what makes this system bad.

Also, whatever happened to extend codes?

[Valymer]

Having played games with similar, yet MUCH more fiendish gear grinding systems, I can get why some people find PSO2's system "good". It still doesn't excuse the fact that this current system still takes away a lot of the game's "fun" value. Copying the mechanics of other F2P games isn't a guarantee of success; if your players aren't having fun with a mechanic even though all the other games do it, they'll wound up leaving, hardcore fan or not.

As for my own experiences with this system, I've mainly brute forced my way through it and got both amazing successes (+10 rares, souls + rank2 and higher abilities on weapons and units) and soul crushing failures (failing to add an ability with a 85%+ chance of success multiple times in a row for example). In light of this, the only way to have it work for you is to throw money at it until it works, as often as possible while abusing a few tricks (having as many of the same affix as possible in the fodder pool, using AC items, abusing the crap out of mutation, etc.). And even then, you mileage may vary, which is what makes this system bad.

Also, whatever happened to extend codes?

That's why I liken the whole system to gambling, you gotta have deep pockets to break even, much less come out ahead. Unfortunately, luck != skill, so what you have is a game where there is no skill required, just perseverance and massive amounts of grinding the same couple of maps.

[TaigaUC]

No, I think it's fine as it is, and is more lenient then other MMORPG upgrade system.
Which can and has included item breaking(Either disappear, or require a Cash item to recover) and the chance isn't that low, and with the right Soul combonation, it's possible to raise the chance to higher then normal.

You're defining by comparison based on your prior experiences and limited knowledge. Comparing to worse in order to justify something doesn't make it acceptable or better. It's merely saying "you could be worse off, so you should be happy with what you have". I often see people using this flawed logic.
It doesn't change the fact that these kinds of systems are flat-out bad game design. They aren't fun, they don't require any skill or challenge, the player has no control, and the system severely punishes the player for their efforts and time spent.

Chance should never be a primary factor of game design. Imagine a game where every attack you make will randomly result in a high chance of either a successful hit or a miss, regardless of whether you actually collide with the target or not. On every miss, there is a random chance to receive damage and lose money. The player has three choices: to attack, to not attack, or to spend money in order to slightly reduce the chance of misssing.
Doesn't sound fun, does it? That's how systems that rely on random number generator systems "work". By the logic of your statement, the game I described is acceptable because there isn't a chance to instantly perish or be bankrupted on a single miss. But that doesn't justify the fundamental design issues of such a system. You wouldn't consider it acceptable in the context of combat gameplay, because you know there are games with combat that doesn't rely on such frustrating and punishing systems. You're aware that it can be done better.

That's what this is about. There are lots of other possible ways to do these kinds of systems, but game developers usually only copy ideas from each other and rarely innovate. If they implement a garbage system and force players to use it, players have no choice. Personally, I already have several better ideas in mind that I believe would work. If I can come up with some, then there's no reason why veteran game designers can't. They just don't want to, and it doesn't help when people justify these systems on the basis that they could be worse.

[Coatl]

http://t.fireden.net/t/fireden.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/spacejew.jpg.jpeg

Doo Doo's in a foul mood, again.

[Vylera]

Grinding on commons and, as I like to call them, "specials" is completely acceptable.

Grinding rares is not at a point where it's worth it, yet there's enough income to make it possible, anyway.

Attribute transfering is a pain. in. the. ass. Getting X-soul and Stat-3 together on one item alone makes me want to shoot myself in the foot.

Now add ability-3 and stamina-3 and you're asking to buy out every attributed item in player shops.

They should at LEAST make it so you don't need to have 2+ abilities in order to transfer to an item that already has 2, etc.

I buy my items pre-attributed with what I want and grind them myself, unless they're already +10 (which they usually are). I don't want to deal with that hellish system ever again.

[Limbo_lag]

^ Don't bother with stamina 3, just get the +stamina ability item for about 150k, it has 5 less HP, but 100% chance for transfer.

In fact, item ability additions are just slightly lower than their level 3 counterparts, and I think all have 100% chance...not to mention I think you can stack them with the level 3 if you want to as well.

[gigawuts]

How do they even work? Do they create a free extra slot and then take it up? Do they replace one of the affixes you're attempting to transfer? Do they add a new affix slot but reduce chance across the board, like any ordinary attempt to add a new affix slot?

[DonMakaveli]

There are no words to describe the pain Dudu has caused me and my fellow man.

http://i.imgur.com/SOZMF.jpg


Someone wrote after this post this was almost impossible to fail, this just shows how people even fail to realize the little chance they have, you don't have 85% of getting both affixes you actually have 72.25% of getting both affixes.

If you try to add an affix to a 2 slotted weapon even if they have 100% chance they will all be lowered to 75% and that means your chance to get the 3 slots is actually of 42.1875%. It seems most people don't even acknowledge their real chances because SEGA chose to not even give those.

Again, the grinding system isn't totally broken but it needs changes, and i see that the common sense of everyone that gave a suggestion is to add some kind of item to help with these troubles.

[Limbo_lag]

How do they even work? Do they create a free extra slot and then take it up? Do they replace one of the affixes you're attempting to transfer? Do they add a new affix slot but reduce chance across the board, like any ordinary attempt to add a new affix slot?

Hmm, can't remember exactly what happens (slotwise) off the top of my head, but I think it just takes up one of the available slots, IIRC. Might try it again when I get the money.

[eharima]

Someone wrote after this post this was almost impossible to fail, this just shows how people even fail to realize the little chance they have, you don't have 85% of getting both affixes you actually have 72.25% of getting both affixes.

If you try to add an affix to a 2 slotted weapon even if they have 100% chance they will all be lowered to 75% and that means your chance to get the 3 slots is actually of 42.1875%. It seems most people don't even acknowledge their real chances because SEGA chose to not even give those.


Sorry what? where are you pulling these numbers out of?

yes, it is quite obvious that the *rarity of an item has an influence in the success rate of an unseen, unknown calculated rate.

Or are you referring to the penalization of adding a NEW slot, such as going from a 2 slot weapon to a 3 slot weapon?

[gigawuts]

two affixes with 85% chance of success each -> .85 * .85 = .7225 -> 72.25%

edit: To answer your second question with the 2->3 slot thing, it's .75 * .75 * .75 = .421875 -> 42.19% chance of success.

The affix system is HIGHLY stacked against you, and the thought of getting eight affixes is simultaneously hilarious and depressing.

[Valymer]

The affix system is HIGHLY stacked against you, and the thought of getting eight affixes is simultaneously hilarious and depressing.

This made me lol because it's too true

[Cyrillic]

Could be worse, I'm coming from a game where a system similar to that only has a 70% success rate.

The odds of getting something there to +10 without failure was effectively 3%.

Binomial distribution is a bish.

Worse yet, the materials needed required reputation, and you had to farm mobs for it about...1 hour per hammer average from +1-+5 and 2 hours per hammer +5-+10.

i never did really hold RNG in high regard... everyone says its just luck, i call it an artifical game-time lengthener.

[Heat Haze]

Do the special items take an existing ability slot or create a new slot altogether?

Other news, the RNG really is stacked against you and it's almost impossible to ever win against it. Grinding, affixing.. whatever it is; it's a huge money sink for something you're not guaranteed to have.

I never really understood why people purchase preaffixed/grinded items from the player shop until I had my fair share of bad luck. 2.5mil down within 3 days on 'just' affixing.

Most of the time, I've 80% and 80% chances; with modifier it's 85% and 85%. About half the time one of them don't succeed. Meanwhile, out of rage during the "#^$% I don't care any more" stage of Grinding anf Affixing.. this happens http://i46.tinypic.com/mlijb.png

I'd throw painful wads of AC at Sega for an affix item that's.. more than 5%.

[DonMakaveli]

two affixes with 85% chance of success each -> .85 * .85 = .7225 -> 72.25%

edit: To answer your second question with the 2->3 slot thing, it's .75 * .75 * .75 = .421875 -> 42.19% chance of success.

The affix system is HIGHLY stacked against you, and the thought of getting eight affixes is simultaneously hilarious and depressing.

Thank you fella.

So i've farmed troll islands for the last couple of hours or so and i've gathered around 250k which now i'll waste trying to get my tigredor to +8 again i'll tell you in a min how it went.

And could you people stop saying "it could be worse?" of course it could be worse, but you know what? it's still BS and it could be BETTER lol

322k
99grinders

Grinding a Tigredor +4 to +8.

Tigredor +8 after wasting 150k and 66 (264k) grinders. So hm to grind 4 levels it took me 22 tries a total of 414k ye seems fine... just went on a row of 5 fails on +3 then a row of 3 successes from 5 to 8, ye the system works great -.-

Fighting the urge to not try it until 10 is the worst -.-

[Dextro]

I posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant here.
I was ready to throw my laptop through the window after this:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/xW4CB.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[gigawuts]

Out of curiosity, what affixes did you put in to get the odds that high? I know some affixes can be combined to increase odds, and there's the 5% chance modifier, but 80% for both of those? That's far better than I've seen for those kinds of affixes.

[Dextro]

Out of curiosity, what affixes did you put in to get the odds that high? I know some affixes can be combined to increase odds, and there's the 5% chance modifier, but 80% for both of those? That's far better than I've seen for those kinds of affixes.

The base weapon had Vol Soul and Power II.
The 2 component weapons both had Vol Soul and Power III, which i picked up from the shop fairly cheap.

The most important thing is to have a soul on the base weapon as well as the other 2 you're using, so the chance increases from 50% to 80%

[eharima]

All 3 items would have had vol soul and it gives power transfer bonus so at least 2 of them would have had power 3 , most likely the base item.
Lol at not using 5% booster, only 80k.

And gigawuts , thx for explaining the formula, didn't realise he meant overall chance,
But we all know that's not how chance and probability work huehue!

Ningered edit!

[gigawuts]

Ah, that explains how so many players have power III and vol soul.

Also are you making a joke or would you like to enlighten us as to how chance works :P Or maybe you mean that obvious 2x 80% = 0%, and 3x 37% = 100% (Actually...I have a thought that this might not be too far from the truth)

[DonMakaveli]

Why would he need a 5% booster?? Do you even see what happened there?

That happened to me on a vol armor with 3 slots it went from 3 to NONE do you know the chances of that happening? 1.5% Do you know the chances of Dextro failing both affixes? 4%

He had 4% chance of failing both a 32% of getting one and a 64% of getting both. Yes these are probabilities a 4% chance is not 0% and i understand that but it's pretty freakin obviously the system is shady as f at generating the numbers.

[Coatl]

I just recently affixed a fang soul (50% chance) and shoot II (60%) chance on my *9 launcher. I was totally expecting it to fail, as I was sleepy and couldn't give a #$#% about mutations at the time.

RNG. <3

Sometimes it can make you the most miserable person on the planet.
But sometimes it can make your day.

[Ceresa]

Why would he need a 5% booster?? Do you even see what happened there?

That happened to me on a vol armor with 3 slots it went from 3 to NONE do you know the chances of that happening? 1.5% Do you know the chances of Dextro failing both affixes? 4%

He had 4% chance of failing both a 32% of getting one and a 64% of getting both. Yes these are probabilities a 4% chance is not 0% and i understand that but it's pretty freakin obviously the system is shady as f at generating the numbers.

Why wouldn't he use a 5% boost? 85% x 85% = 72%, that's a lot better than 80% x 80% = 64%. Gotta at least do everything in your power to succeed before crying...

And who gives a shit for the probability of losing both affixes? Either you get both to land or it's a failure. Getting the one back is worthless, it is absurdly trivial to add a single affix.

[TetsuyaHikari]

I posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant here.
I was ready to throw my laptop through the window after this:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/xW4CB.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

I'm more curious as to why you have your meseta blocked out with a picture of a rappy o.o

[Valymer]

I'm more curious as to why you have your meseta blocked out with a picture of a rappy o.o

LOL I didn't even notice that..

[DonMakaveli]

Why wouldn't he use a 5% boost? 85% x 85% = 72%, that's a lot better than 80% x 80% = 64%. Gotta at least do everything in your power to succeed before crying...

And who gives a shit for the probability of losing both affixes? Either you get both to land or it's a failure. Getting the one back is worthless, it is absurdly trivial to add a single affix.

Are you serious? The success % is double of getting just one affix and 16 times the % of getting none why would he bother wasting 80k for 8% ? Might as well fail and try again, it's probably cheaper.

And he might give a shit as he failed both and i'm pretty sure he'd rather just fail one and keep that failure instead of 0 affixes. Kinda of a pointless post but sure and please don't use expressions like crying, nobody's crying this is a game and we're simply discussing it, makes you seem like a 10 year old internet GANGSTA.. We're trying to have a constructive discussion not a rant so if you don't give a shit you should find some other thread that interests you.

[Dextro]

lol i dunno, it's just a force of habit i picked up from previous mmo's to block out money in screenshots, so it doesn't turn into a topic of discussion (kind of ironic now, though).

And as for not using a booster, i just forgot tbh.
I saw the success rate and just immediately thought 'right, everything looks to be in order'.
I'd like to think it wouldn't have saved me from Dodo's wrath anyway.

[DonMakaveli]

Also shouldn't the cost of the transfer still appear next to the meseta rappy? never noticed it

[eharima]

Why would he need a 5% booster?? Do you even see what happened there?

That happened to me on a vol armor with 3 slots it went from 3 to NONE do you know the chances of that happening? 1.5% Do you know the chances of Dextro failing both affixes? 4%

He had 4% chance of failing both a 32% of getting one and a 64% of getting both. Yes these are probabilities a 4% chance is not 0% and i understand that but it's pretty freakin obviously the system is shady as f at generating the numbers.

Wut. Obviously use a 5% booster if you can. It failed.
Keep rattiling on about what you think SHOULD happen. You don't know shit.
If you didn't already know, the *rarity is an influencing factor in the probable outcome.
50% on a 2* rare is an almost guarantee.
regardless of how you think math should work, this software is not programed to the dynamics you see on screen.
QQ some more because you have bad luck.

Its pointless to say what should have happened, as far as RNG is concerned,
You have just as much chance every time.

[gravityvx]

At this point I'm convinced the % doesn't mean shit, the entire system is luck based and the only thing that has an impact on your chances at all is the 5% boost. So you guys can number crunch all you want in the end, it's completely luck based and % you see is meaningless. But I've observed I fail alot less when using the 5% boost no matter what % it is, both of the screenshots are with the boost. I've affixed alot more but those seemed to stand out the most.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/pso2_2012_08_03_18_17_39_842-1.pnghttp://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/pso2_2012_08_13_01_22_40_274.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

[TetsuyaHikari]

At this point I'm convinced the % doesn't mean shit, the entire system is luck based and the only thing that has an impact on your chances at all is the 5% boost. So you guys can number crunch all you want in the end, it's completely luck based and % you see is meaningless. But I've observed I fail alot less when using the 5% boost no matter what % it is, both of the screenshots are with the boost. I've affixed alot more but those seemed to stand out the most.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/pso2_2012_08_03_18_17_39_842-1.pnghttp://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/Thatguyobliv/pso2_2012_08_13_01_22_40_274.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Again, someone has blocked out their money. Why? This is becoming even more confusing than the RNG, lol.

Why are you guys doing that? I could understand censoring a name, but a money amount...? I'm just curious as to what the reason is behind this.

[eharima]

I'd block my money also, no need for you to know my business.
Plus some people prolly have SHAMFURDISPRAY

[TetsuyaHikari]

I'd block my money also, no need for you to know my business.

...it's not a paycheck, you know, lol.

[Ceresa]

Are you serious? The success % is double of getting just one affix and 16 times the % of getting none why would he bother wasting 80k for 8% ? Might as well fail and try again, it's probably cheaper.

And he might give a shit as he failed both and i'm pretty sure he'd rather just fail one and keep that failure instead of 0 affixes. Kinda of a pointless post but sure and please don't use expressions like crying, nobody's crying this is a game and we're simply discussing it, makes you seem like a 10 year old internet GANGSTA.. We're trying to have a constructive discussion not a rant so if you don't give a shit you should find some other thread that interests you.

This whole thread is a rant and I and everyone else here, can post as they please, deal with it. Not a single one of you can give a valid reason for why they should implement your ideas beyond a childish desire to want it to be cheaper and easier. Does the game difficulty necessitate better gear? No, obviously it doesn't. Guess they don't have to do a fucking thing for it. Just a bunch of beaten dogs licking each others wounds over some failed upgrades that don't do a goddamn thing for you.

And the fact that you or anyone places any value on keeping a single affix when aiming for two or more is a defining trait of a retard. Oh no an extra 50k getting vol soul back on my weapon, my precious 10 minutes of burst was wasted!

[gravityvx]

Again, someone has blocked out their money. Why? This is becoming even more confusing than the RNG, lol.

Why are you guys doing that? I could understand censoring a name, but a money amount...? I'm just curious as to what the reason is behind this.

I do it out of respect I guess, when I take a screenshot where my money can be seen I blank it out because it doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm pointing out in the shot, and when its no censored I feel like an ass trying to subtly show off how much money I have, which again has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm actually trying to point out in my shots. Sure, maybe nobody cares but I do. :)

[ShinMaruku]

Now I'm gonna block my money so people wonder why I block it out. :E

[RemChu]

Give me a price tag that is 2, 3, even 4 times the average cost to randomly affix or grind something.

I will save up for it.

I have failed 12 soul affixes in a row. Twelve. Twelve. The odds were well below 99% of that happening - yet it did. And you know what? The odds on the next one are still just 50%! That was just the longest streak too, out of 50 attempts I've only succeeded around 4 times. On a 50 percent fucking chance affix.

Want to know why I'm angry about the RNG in this game? That's why. I've shelled out in excess of 2.5 million meseta trying to grind 8* rares and still have yet to reach +10. That's WELL BEYOND the average cost.

Give me a price. I will pay it. Fuck the RNG, fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it. In no game should one person be screwed hard over and over with no ability to do anything about it besides play more or not play at all.
Ouch I can feel your pain bro.

[Link1275]

I agree its terrible. Using those % boosting/-1/-0 items dont really help much as Ive used quite a number of them already (AC).

But has anyone noticed? Many "japanese" players seem to have tons of perfect +10 rare weapons in their personal shops with the appropriate soul and some kind of Power/Shoot/Tech III ability along with it. Ive checked my server records and a total of less than 300 Knight lancers has dropped since the game started but this one person has one that is +10, 25 element and has a War soul and Power III on it(eventhough all wikis state only the Rockbear on hard mode drops it) along with a full range of other rare weapons with souls that are very hard to combine. All +10, all perfect.

If anyone who is curious and is on Ship 8, search for this player called Leisia and see for yourself.

Yeah, that person seems to be best friends with the RNG. I was going to get their Vis-Bahn, but someone beat me to it. Of course, they could also just be a filthy dirty hacker that's getting rich by selling hacked weapons to people innocent bystanders that know nothing about the item's history.

[bloodflowers]

This is all sounding terribly familiar. Getting hosed in a Sega game by the RNG. It had been clear for a long time that actual chances from the RNG were nothing like they should have been on paper, in PSU.

They'll probably fix it with expensive AC based options soon.

RNG based progression really is the laziest and most unreasonable way of doing things because as several have pointed out, there are always people who get a free ride, and always (seemingly more) people who get utterly screwed for their entire game career.

[Ceresa]

Ceresa i started the thread so i know what its about just because you have 1000+ posts saying shit only means you have nothing better to do but sit here trolling, you just show how ignorant you are as the thread has some really good ideas how to solve this problem but i guess you missed that, you are just another troll that reads the last page and starts saying shit, actually the traits of a retard is someone like you who would rather lose both affixes than just one LOL.

Keep doing non constructive remarks, you two are childish as fuck tbh and you are proving it. I actually showed some people that might not know how the numbers worked, you two failed yet to say anything constructive at all, so gtfo your high horses nobody gives a fuck about arrogant twats :)

Soul on all 3 items = 80% transfer rate. Kind of important if you want a reasonable chance of success with multiple affixes, so since you want to get that soul back on your blank...

Lose one affix and left with soul, fine, great, whatever. You saved a trivial amount of meseta.

Lose one affix and left with not the soul, have fun buying 1 affix soul units which are twice as expensive compared with using 2~5 affix soul weapons on a blank.

It's almost as if there's no difference...now who doesn't know how the fucking numbers work?

[Valymer]

1. SEGA makes a horribly unbalanced weapon modification system which in effect serves as the endgame due to the game's premature release/lack of other content

2. People use the argument that "it's F2P, you can't complain about it"

3. SEGA releases items in the AC shop which cost a fortune but allow players to actually interact in a positive way with the weapon modification system (hypothetical)

Am I the only one that sees something wrong with this? :-?

I would much rather SEGA have made the game P2P and actually had more fleshed-out content (read: something to do other than zombie mode farming).

I think it's hilarious that people are comparing this game to other PS games in the past. It really doesn't matter how things were in older games, this is a new game and they had a brand new chance to improve upon their game design. If anything, with all that prior experience the design should IMPROVE, shouldn't it?

Can't understand all of the apologists on this board. It's like nostalgia or something is causing people to completely ignore the game's flaws and try to make rationalizations such as "it's better than other PS games/shitty Korean grindfest games/getting stabbed in the eye with a sharp pencil"

No game is perfect. No one is asking PSO2 to be perfect. What we are asking is for something to do other than mindlessly grind the same handful of maps. Is this too much to ask?

[CelestialBlade]

You take a chance adding abilities onto a piece of equipment. Might work, might not, that's the cost of your investment.

Why is that hard to understand? If you don't want to take the risk, don't. It'd be boring if everyone could easily obtain ultimate gear. I just finished up my HP/S-ATK gear build and I feel really accomplished in doing so, despite the lost investments and such.

[DonMakaveli]

Soul on all 3 items = 80% transfer rate. Kind of important if you want a reasonable chance of success with multiple affixes, so since you want to get that soul back on your blank...

Lose one affix and left with soul, fine, great, whatever. You saved a trivial amount of meseta.

Lose one affix and left with not the soul, have fun buying 1 affix soul units which are twice as expensive compared with using 2~5 affix soul weapons on a blank.

It's almost as if there's no difference...now who doesn't know how the fucking numbers work?

Ceresa all i'm saying is if you lose affixes, the ammount of slots drop so i rather lose one slot than lose all of them, of course in that case if you lose 1 or 2 slots but keep the soul it might still be a good deal for you. And eharima didn't knew where my numbers came from on the posts before, kinda ironic that he's acting like a smart ass now lol

[Zyrusticae]

This whole thread is a rant and I and everyone else here, can post as they please, deal with it. Not a single one of you can give a valid reason for why they should implement your ideas beyond a childish desire to want it to be cheaper and easier.
STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!

As has already been pointed out over and over again, the rage induced on players on the low end of the RNG curve is more than enough reason to fix such a horribly ineptly-implemented system. We don't even care if it's "easier", we just want to be less GODDAMN FRUSTRATING. They can multiply the costs for all I care, so long as I don't get so many bloody stupid dice rolls to deal with.

No game system should ever produce this much of a negative emotional reaction from players. EVER. It's terrible, period. How anyone can possibly defend this tripe is entirely beyond me...

[gigawuts]

Hell, just give me a new option called "Grinding Auto-Attempt." Let me select up to, I don't know, let's say 50 grinding attempts with one button press. If I succeed in that, great. If I don't, not great.

At least it won't make me spend 10 minutes watching it go up and down with nothing I can do about it besides try again or not try at all.

We've said time and time again it's not the price we hate, it's the random element.

[Ceresa]

STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!

As has already been pointed out over and over again, the rage induced on players on the low end of the RNG curve is more than enough reason to fix such a horribly ineptly-implemented system. We don't even care if it's "easier", we just want to be less GODDAMN FRUSTRATING. They can multiply the costs for all I care, so long as I don't get so many bloody stupid dice rolls to deal with.

No game system should ever produce this much of a negative emotional reaction from players. EVER. It's terrible, period. How anyone can possibly defend this tripe is entirely beyond me...

We're one month into a game that will ideally last 3-5 years, you're not gonna be up the ass end of the RNG the whole time, unless you quit right now while you're down.

And what are you even losing? Some meseta? You sure aren't losing any performance provided you keep some basic 5* +10 around during the low parts of grinding, and you can even resell that 5* when you hit +10 on the rare. So you lose meseta, what the hell else were you going to use it for?

Or you could buy one 0 risk item (240k) every day, do a grind attempt and eventually hit +10, enjoying your rare weapon graphic all the while.

Greater suffering, greater pleasure.

[Zyrusticae]

Oh, come on! It's simple, basic psychology: Losing something feels much worse than not having it in the first place. If they at least removed the "ALL YOUR PROGRESS IS GONE MUAHAHAHAHAHA" part of it, it'd be a lot less frustrating (though still frustrating, because RNG).

And you're wrong, there is ZERO guarantee any of us will ever get out of the arse-end of the RNG curve, because it is bad RNG. For all you know the negative streak could go on for hundreds of thousands of rolls. It happens.

[gigawuts]

Oh, come on! It's simple, basic psychology: Losing something feels much worse than not having it in the first place. If they at least removed the "ALL YOUR PROGRESS IS GONE MUAHAHAHAHAHA" part of it, it'd be a lot less frustrating (though still frustrating, because RNG).

And you're wrong, there is ZERO guarantee any of us will ever get out of the arse-end of the RNG curve, because it is bad RNG. For all you know the negative streak could go on for hundreds of thousands of rolls. It happens.

Relevant: http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Random%20Number%20Generator

[DonMakaveli]

We're one month into a game that will ideally last 3-5 years, you're not gonna be up the ass end of the RNG the whole time, unless you quit right now while you're down.

And what are you even losing? Some meseta? You sure aren't losing any performance provided you keep some basic 5* +10 around during the low parts of grinding, and you can even resell that 5* when you hit +10 on the rare. So you lose meseta, what the hell else were you going to use it for?

Or you could buy one 0 risk item (240k) every day, do a grind attempt and eventually hit +10, enjoying your rare weapon graphic all the while.

Greater suffering, greater pleasure.

240k every day for some people is a lot of money, while eliminating the risk there's still a good chance you'll spend more than a million in one week and be sitting on the same grind as before, for 240k i rather just grind losely i might only pay a few k and get to +10 or waste less than that to end up at the same place as before. That's why i suggested risk protection items should be implemented as uncommon and rare drops

[Enforcer MKV]

I believe I'm sensing the downward spiral...

[Mystil]

STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!



...wow I almost made a Skyrim reference in another response to you in another thread. >_> probably should have done it. (Oblivion has the best dialoge in the galaxy lololol)

Err anyway.

I'll say it again, like I did in another thread. Props to you people going through all that, to be the best you can be in the game. But, fuck that. I'm not gonna kill my enjoyment by playing the game of Risk(haha). I'd rather save up, and buy it off people, where such grinds/affixes eventually become junk to them because they made something better. I got a +10 sword, partisan, and wired lance this way.

[Valymer]

I'll say it again, like I did in another thread. Props to you people going through all that, to be the best you can be in the game. But, fuck that. I'm not gonna kill my enjoyment by playing the game of Risk(haha). I'd rather save up, and buy it off people, where such grinds/affixes eventually become junk to them because they made something better. I got a +10 sword, partisan, and wired lance this way.

Well said

[Priest]

Wow, with all this "i'll just buy it" attitude, you won't be able to buy it if you go to NA PSO2 because no one will want to make it in the first place to sell.. haha. Oh well, just keep buying my 200% markup +10 items with affixes, I'm not complaining ^_^

[Mystil]

Oh well, just keep buying my 200% markup +10 items with affixes, I'm not complaining ^_^

I'm not stupid either. So your "even though it's +10" but obviously really overpriced stuff would still sit there. And I'm not going to NA PSO2.

[Nuclearranger]

I posted this on the other RNG thread but I feel its relevant here.

All of your arguments against doodoo are invalid.... http://soundcloud.com/croclo/dodo

It's almost like this forum wants the game to literally only drop rare items at +10 from the start with 8 abilities of your choosing.

What is with this entitled mentality? It is almost infuriating.

I have gotten many items to 10 and have some nice abilities. Did I fail a lot? Sure but I should. I now have things to be proud of instead of just a run of the mill 15* +10 item with mega ability V on it....

The real issue with making this easy is the fact that EVERYONE now has the best equips and that removes value from the items in this game. With nothing left to work for, the game will surely die.

[Valymer]

It's obvious that many people that post here have never played an MMO with balanced, fun progression before.

[Xaeris]

God, I really want to punch who ever got the ball rolling on this "entitled" buzzword that's been all the rage to call gamers.

You're completely misunderstand everyone else's complaint, Nuclearranger. The issue is not players being unwilling to invest time and effort into improving their equipment. The issue is the absolutely random nature by which this process is done. It's one thing to ask players to invest X amount of meseta into the grinding process to obtain +10, where X is a definite, known (if exhorbitant) value. It's a wholly other thing to ask players to invest X where X can range from 40k for the stupidly lucky player to eight figures for the tragically unfortunate. Would you say the former player "worked" for that +10? Would you say that they worked harder than the latter player?

That's the issue. Not this silly little smokescreen about entitlement.

[DonMakaveli]

Agree lol people who defend a system based on random numbers really look like fan boys or don't even bother to see what the topic was all about.

Besides i wanna wish these persons the worst luck ever, oh you like randomness so much huh? may doo-doo curse your ass with his awesome random numbers

[Vashyron]

Fix for Drops as well please, they also work on complete RNG!


Guys, we aren't meant to have the cake and eat 5 cakes with it
The game is easy enough as is. It's literally balanced around us having +6 weapons and 1 ability on our weapons and units. Us doing things with 90 to 95% failure chance, then complaining that the enemies die in 2 hits (and bosses in 30 seconds) is just funny to me

Quoted again as it needs to be read.

[Crysteon]

Besides i wanna wish these persons the worst luck ever, oh you like randomness so much huh? may doo-doo curse your ass with his awesome random numbers

Yeah, I wanna see that too. I guess those peeps with bullshit luck need a shower of reality once in a while, lol.

[Nuclearranger]

God, I really want to punch who ever got the ball rolling on this "entitled" buzzword that's been all the rage to call gamers.

You're completely misunderstand everyone else's complaint, Nuclearranger. The issue is not players being unwilling to invest time and effort into improving their equipment. The issue is the absolutely random nature by which this process is done. It's one thing to ask players to invest X amount of meseta into the grinding process to obtain +10, where X is a definite, known (if exhorbitant) value. It's a wholly other thing to ask players to invest X where X can range from 40k for the stupidly lucky player to eight figures for the tragically unfortunate. Would you say the former player "worked" for that +10? Would you say that they worked harder than the latter player?

That's the issue. Not this silly little smokescreen about entitlement.


Every time you work for something do you always get results? It has been mentioned before but I want to say it again. This game pushes people to have +5-7 and 1 ability for the most part.

Your complaint is quite close to wondering why everyone can't be rich even though we all try hard in life.

The best part about this system is that people can fail, not only can they fail they can remove large amounts of messeta from the economy. This prevents inflation, and overall helps the unfortunate afford better weapons in the end.

It also gives people something to strive for. Because +10s with XX ability are so rare, they have real value in the a virtual system where there would otherwise be none.

There is a balance to things that people are missing and the only argument against this is something along the lines of "Its a game and I want to win"

[TetsuyaHikari]

Every time you work for something do you always get results? It has been mentioned before but I want to say it again. This game pushes people to have +5-7 and 1 ability for the most part.

Your complaint is quite close to wondering why everyone can't be rich even though we all try hard in life.

The best part about this system is that people can fail, not only can they fail they can remove large amounts of messeta from the economy. This prevents inflation, and overall helps the unfortunate afford better weapons in the end.

It also gives people something to strive for. Because +10s with XX ability are so rare, they have real value in the a virtual system where there would otherwise be none.

There is a balance to things that people are missing and the only argument against this is something along the lines of "Its a game and I want to win"

Please tell me how much money you have. I want to know when I can start saying that weapons for 7-10+ million meseta are affordable too.

[Nuclearranger]

Agree lol people who defend a system based on random numbers really look like fan boys or don't even bother to see what the topic was all about.

Besides i wanna wish these persons the worst luck ever, oh you like randomness so much huh? may doo-doo curse your ass with his awesome random numbers

My argument really is not for random numbers per say. However it is for failure, for without failure there is no challenge, or inherent wealth/value in the system.

[Nuclearranger]

Please tell me how much money you have. I want to know when I can start saying that weapons for 7-10+ million meseta are affordable too.

Imagine normal +0 weapons with no elements or abilities at 10million.

That is probably the situation the game would be in if there was no system removing messeta, it is almost basic economics.

The weapons you are looking at are worth 10m because they are genuinely good. Probably +10 with XX abilities.

However I see many 9* weapons for under 500k on occasion. You can make 500k fairly quickly on hard. It probably takes me a weekend or so.

Really either I spoke wrong or you took it wrong. It removes inflation but doesn't remove value, the value of that weapon is probably "XXPLAYTIME" if you could make a million a day instead of 100k you could expect prices to be 10times higher. Again basic economics.

Overall the point is that you shouldn't be able to afford the best or have the best unless you put in a retarded amount of time. Does it suck? Yea probably, however the alternative is a dull and pointless system with nothing to work for and no reason to keep the game going.

[gigawuts]

...What are you talking about Nuclearranger?

Find me the post where someone, anyone here asked for getting +10 or affixes to be cheap or easy.

[Dextro]

The best part about this system is that people can fail, not only can they fail they can remove large amounts of messeta from the economy. This prevents inflation, and overall helps the unfortunate afford better weapons in the end.

It also gives people something to strive for. Because +10s with XX ability are so rare, they have real value in the a virtual system where there would otherwise be none.

There is a balance to things that people are missing and the only argument against this is something along the lines of "Its a game and I want to win"

This is all very true.

But from flicking through the thread, i think the main complaint is that the success% you're given isn't accurate, or something.
I don't think anyone here actually asked for the success rates to be higher.

[Nuclearranger]

...What are you talking about Nuclearranger?

Find me the post where someone, anyone here asked for getting +10 or affixes to be cheap or easy.

It's almost implied. No one is complaining about getting to +5 only to +10, the highest goal you can reach.

I understand the anger at failing grinds, but I have yet to see a reasonable replacement to the system either that will give the same messeta drain and sense of accomplishment.

[gigawuts]

It's almost implied. No one is complaining about getting to +5 only to +10, the highest goal you can reach.

I understand the anger at failing grinds, but I have yet to see a reasonable replacement to the system either that will give the same messeta drain and sense of accomplishment.

No. You need to read threads before you fly off the rail and reply to them.

People are expressly stating that they don't want it easy or cheap. They want it consistently and reliably.

[Nuclearranger]

This is all very true.

But from flicking through the thread, i think the main complaint is that the success% you're given isn't accurate, or something.
I don't think anyone here actually asked for the success rates to be higher.

hmm, I guess I didn't get that out of the thread. The whole thing about random numbers is that you can never be sure if they are correct or not.

If that is the case, then just assume going in that the rates are halved, expect to fail. :)

[Nuclearranger]

No. You need to read threads before you fly off the rail and reply to them.

People are expressly stating that they don't want it easy or cheap. They want it consistently and reliably.

Consistency and Reliability, could never cause the same effects that the current system causes unless the price fluctuated based on market values. I think currently for a 9* a guaranteed grind should be in the range of 200,000->300,000 messeta. Along with making grinders about 10 times as rare.

This system I could agree with.

[gigawuts]

Let me go back and find a post you evidently did not read.



Give me a price tag that is 2, 3, even 4 times the average cost to randomly affix or grind something.

I will save up for it.

I have failed 12 soul affixes in a row. Twelve. Twelve. The odds were well below 99% of that happening - yet it did. And you know what? The odds on the next one are still just 50%! That was just the longest streak too, out of 50 attempts I've only succeeded around 4 times. On a 50 percent fucking chance affix.

Want to know why I'm angry about the RNG in this game? That's why. I've shelled out in excess of 2.5 million meseta trying to grind 8* rares and still have yet to reach +10. That's WELL BEYOND the average cost.

Give me a price. I will pay it. Fuck the RNG, fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it fuck it. In no game should one person be screwed hard over and over with no ability to do anything about it besides play more or not play at all.

Either you think this system is flawed, or you're a fanboy hellbent on defending Sega at any cost. Nobody should have to drop more than 10x the average and still have nothing to show for it in the name of ~MONEY SINK~ and ~ECONOMIC BALANCE~ (Oh god economic balance ha ha ha go play a game with a real god damn economy).

[Nuclearranger]

Let me go back and find a post you evidently did not read.

Either you think this system is flawed, or you're a fanboy hellbent on defending Sega at any cost. Nobody should have to drop more than 10x the average and still have nothing to show for it in the name of ~MONEY SINK~ and ~ECONOMIC BALANCE~ (Oh god economic balance ha ha ha go play a game with a real god damn economy).

Real economy? Maybe real life.

I actually did read that, while unfortunate not as uncommon as stated. My legacy shot cost me 1.6 million to get to 10 and another 500k to attempt to get abilities on it, all of which failed. (It got to 10 but no abilities)

I was going for RIII and Fang, both hard to do so I expected to fail, and clearly I did.


Either you think this system is flawed, or you're a fanboy hellbent on defending Sega at any cost.

Why so black and white? There is nothing about the system you like?


I think the cost of getting a 8*/9* to 10 with abilities is probably 3-4 million. For that price you can often times buy one from people who were lucky and made it for less.

[gigawuts]

Oh, you got up to RIII and Fang with just 500k? After 500k I still didn't even have the fucking soul OR SIII on ANYTHING, nevermind the ability to combine TWO of them to even see if I failed that.

RNG is bullshit. If you don't see that you're either an idealist or an idiot (what's the difference). Laws of averages sound all kinds of great until you realize some players lose out massively while others win out massively. In reality using an RNG for something like this is nothing but lazy and an admission that you can't implement a smart or properly balanced system.

This is a free to play game. Making half your players ragequit when they lose out on ridiculous losing streaks is the last god damn thing you should ever want to do.

And why so black and white? No rational human being defends something like this.

Cost? There is no "cost." There's an average, which the majority of players will not get. You could get it without fail on your first attempt, or you could spend 100 million meseta and still have no progress at all. RNG's are bad in systems like these, and Sega's RNG is especially bad with loads of streaks. With rare item drops you're looking at hundreds, even thousands of enemy spawns. It's much harder for players to fall through the cracks on that and all you lose is the time it took for the last run, so I don't mind it as much (I've never found a Love Rappy btw, played the game since E1&2+ released, done thousands of temple runs, and still have never seen a single Love Rappy. RNG FTW!), but when failure means losing money, time, progress, AND efficiency? Hell no. Hell. No.

This system is an insult to the players and when the game hits the EN community it will either not be even close to as horrible as it currently is or it will be the death of the PS franchise in the states. Even five years ago players may have put up with something like this, but a lot's changed since then. A subscription system is one thing, but a F2P model like this? Ha ha ha ha ha.

[eharima]

gigawuts, do you have a youtube, blog or live stream for when you grind?
Ill pay meseta per view if your luck is realy that bad mang. :p

[Nuclearranger]

Oh, you got up to RIII and Fang with just 500k? After 500k I still didn't even have the fucking soul OR SIII on ANYTHING, nevermind the ability to combine TWO of them to even see if I failed that.

RNG is bullshit. If you don't see that you're either an idealist or an idiot (what's the difference). Laws of averages sound all kinds of great until you realize some players lose out massively while others win out massively. In reality using an RNG for something like this is nothing but lazy and an admission that you can't implement a smart or properly balanced system.

This is a free to play game. Making half your players ragequit when they lose out on ridiculous losing streaks is the last god damn thing you should ever want to do.

And why so black and white? No rational human being defends something like this.

Cost? There is no "cost." There's an average, which the majority of players will not get. You could get it without fail on your first attempt, or you could spend 100 million meseta and still have no progress at all. RNG's are bad in systems like these, and Sega's RNG is especially bad with loads of streaks. With rare item drops you're looking at hundreds, even thousands of enemy spawns. It's much harder for players to fall through the cracks on that and all you lose is the time it took for the last run, so I don't mind it as much (I've never found a Love Rappy btw, played the game since E1&2+ released, done thousands of temple runs, and still have never seen a single Love Rappy. RNG FTW!), but when failure means losing money, time, progress, AND efficiency? Hell no. Hell. No.

This system is an insult to the players and when the game hits the EN community it will either not be even close to as horrible as it currently is or it will be the death of the PS franchise in the states. Even five years ago players may have put up with something like this, but a lot's changed since then. A subscription system is one thing, but a F2P model like this? Ha ha ha ha ha.

Would like to mention that I said I did not succeed with the abilities.

Also, the grinding system will end the entire PS franchise? lol

Can we have a discussion without name calling and getting mad? Its a bit rude and does not convey your point well.

[gigawuts]

Yes, a system where the endgame is roulette with intentional disinformation, losing streaks, and loss of money, time, progress, and weapon effectiveness will be the end of this game series.

Mark my words. Bump the thread if I'm wrong.

[Macman]

This system is an insult to the players and when the game hits the EN community it will either not be even close to as horrible as it currently is or it will be the death of the PS franchise in the states.
No it won't. People will just run around with shitty +3 rares or +10 non-rares. Just like now.

[Valymer]

I'd much rather rare drop rates reduced across the board to something ridiculously low like 0.0001%, but when they dropped they were already equal to the power of +10 with affixes geared to your class. That would actually make farming feel worthwhile, because if something actually dropped you could equip it as-is, a true upgrade.

Anyone who thinks the system is "fun" or "balanced" or "fair" in it's current state is either a fanboi or has a complete lack of gaming experience outside of Korean MMOs/PS games. There are far better ways to promote individual character progression and reduce inflation at the same time, many other games have done it and to say that this is a needed system just shows complete ignorance of what is possible.

[gigawuts]

Right now you're looking at the asian MMO community and hardcore PS fans. If this was anything but PS I'd probably have burst out laughing after dropping all my money on my vol scale in the POBT and uninstalled.

I am the last person in my group of friends still playing this game because of the RNG systems. Most of my friends have moved on to other, less frustrating games. I have a lot more patience than the average english speaking F2P gamer, I can promise you that.

This game will be changed when it hits the states because it's a bad system. Why the asian MMO community puts up with it is way beyond me.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong and I just can't stomach modern gaming where everything is chance and only spending real life cash can make anything remotely possible. If that's the case I guess I'm just done with video games.

[eharima]

I'd much rather rare drop rates reduced across the board to something ridiculously low like 0.0001%, but when they dropped they were already equal to the power of +10 with affixes geared to your class.

so we can all complain about drops being too hard?



Anyone who thinks the system is "fun" or "balanced" or "fair" in it's current state is either a fanboi or has a complete lack of gaming experience outside of Korean MMOs/PS games. .

could be better, could be worse. I would have prefered that they implemnted direct sale item grind boosters like the exp boosters, rather than AC SCRATCH lists with way too many items in them, imo i feel they would make more money this way.

[gigawuts]

gigawuts, do you have a youtube, blog or live stream for when you grind?
Ill pay meseta per view if your luck is realy that bad mang. :p

No, I've stopped farming just to attempt to upgrade things again. Maybe in a few weeks I'll try grinding up something and fraps it, that's what I wound up doing last time I ragequit the RNG and my streak wound up being even fucking worse than the one that made me stop in the first place.

Now is when I get back to only half-playing while thinking about other games I could be playing that won't punish me for even attempting to improve my equipment. TF2 has an update coming out, then GW2 and Borderlands 2 are coming out very soon. None of those games have systems that ruin your current equipment for attempting to improve it. They may have it in cosmetics, but cosmetics don't actually affect anything except the anger and frustrations of your enemies (arguably important). Instead, they've got the loot systems very close to what I liked from PSO1 where you're just playing along and then oh look you found something you don't need to do anything else it's yours now good job have fun with it.

[Vashyron]

Huge "I wanna be the very best" mentality I'm seeing here.

RNG Blows yes, I would also love for the system to be based on something more concrete you could work towards. (At a Higher Cost.) Thing is it isn't looking like we will get anything of the sort. (Look at the Scratch instead of a way to outright buy clothing.)

Meanwhile how about stop doing things like risking a rare at +8~ or trying to improve upon already ok Affix set for a trivial amount of a stat boost? Do you NEED it at all? Is it WORTH risking the current point your Weapon/Unit is at just so you can get frustrated at your own gamble?

Man have fun with grinding the future 13-15* Weapons with this mindset.

[Cyclon]

0.0001%
The... Do you even realize what you're saying?

I guess I'm just done with video games.
If RNG's really your problem, you've at least been done with RPGs for like forever.

Seriously, people. Seriously. Yes, this system is a bit harsh, and RNG can be unfair, but let's not overreact.

[gigawuts]

Huge "I wanna be the very best" mentality I'm seeing here.

RNG Blows yes, I would also love for the system to be based on something more concrete you could work towards. (At a Higher Cost.) Thing is it isn't looking like we will get anything of the sort. (Look at the Scratch instead of a way to outright buy clothing.)

Meanwhile how about stop doing things like risking a rare at +8~ or trying to improve upon already ok Affix set for a trivial amount of a stat boost? Do you NEED it at all? Is it WORTH risking the current point your Weapon/Unit is at just so you can get frustrated at your own gamble?

Man have fun with grinding the future 13-15* Weapons with this mindset.

You keep saying stuff like that, but you have nothing to say about losing a dozen god damn attempts to affix one soul.

Please, please, please tell me you're about to say that souls are too glamorous for the average player to have on a weapon.

edit:
The... Do you even realize what you're saying?

If RNG's really your problem, you've at least been done with RPGs for like forever.

Seriously, people. Seriously. Yes, this system is a bit harsh, and RNG can be unfair, but let's not overreact.

Learn to read posts. I just said systems where hundreds or thousands of rolls are passable because of how ridiculously rare it is to fall through the cracks. I'll let that fly, fine. Rare drops, crits, whatever. But a system like this is absurd, and to ignore the rest of my posts in favor of taking one snippet out of context is just asinine.

[Valymer]

The... Do you even realize what you're saying?

Yep, I sure do, that's why I said it.

[TetsuyaHikari]

Yep, I sure do, that's why I said it.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/987/fyeah.jpg

[Valymer]

Where did you find my RL pic? Are you stalking me? creeper

[eharima]

Huge "I wanna be the very best" mentality I'm seeing here.

Growing up with pokemon does this to you...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfX0tIaExmM

[Vashyron]

You keep saying stuff like that, but you have nothing to say about losing a dozen god damn attempts to affix one soul.

Please, please, please tell me you're about to say that souls are too glamorous for the average player to have on a weapon.

If all you are trying to do is Affix one Soul (50%?) and you keep constantly failing yes that sucks, luck like this is possible and I did say I dislike RNG.

Though again meanwhile do you really need that Soul on your weapon to get enjoyment out of the game? I know attempting something like that could leave you frustrated but Venting here is not going to change anything.

Not defending Sega here at all as I dislike RNG, just seems like people are bringing on the frustration on themselves as they know what they are in for when playing with Luck. More so for unneeded Trivial Boosts.

[gigawuts]

As a hunter, yes, that extra HP makes a considerable difference. Multiple times I've been brought down to less than 20 HP while being stunlocked between multiple enemies hitting me one after another.

I won't bother trying to argue over what's necessary and isn't, the fact is a major part of the game slams some players down and lets others by without an issue. That is broken. What the result of it is doesn't matter. It could unlock hats in TF2 for all I fucking care. The fact still remains that a number of players get shafted for literally no reason besides the RNG rolling snake eyes multiple times in a row.

[Crysteon]

Huge "I wanna be the very best" mentality I'm seeing here.

RNG Blows yes, I would also love for the system to be based on something more concrete you could work towards. (At a Higher Cost.) Thing is it isn't looking like we will get anything of the sort. (Look at the Scratch instead of a way to outright buy clothing.)

Meanwhile how about stop doing things like risking a rare at +8~ or trying to improve upon already ok Affix set for a trivial amount of a stat boost? Do you NEED it at all? Is it WORTH risking the current point your Weapon/Unit is at just so you can get frustrated at your own gamble?

Man have fun with grinding the future 13-15* Weapons with this mindset.

I'm not exactly of the "I wanna be the very best" mentality, but from the "I dont like sucking", "I fucking hate being useless in parties", and "I have to improve constantly to stay on a desireable standard" ones. Of course, you might end up saying I'm elitist trash because I consider my gaming standards being way too high compared to other people who play normally with generic equipment without the best affixing nor grinds.

I dont see anything wrong with the whole improving concept, but yeah...the whole grinding system on this game is basically based on Korean ideas like "win +1/ lose x2" that just make players harvest frustration out of all the investment they had to put on their equipment or atempts to get something worth using or selling.

About if it's worth or not in practical terms, you might notice later that some future 9* and 10* equipment (presumably top gears) might be weaker than some of the current 8*s and 9*s...maxing grinds or affixes is a decision where you risk the real value of your equipment against future content that might not match the efficience of your current gears. Honestly, I'm expecting a lot 10* to be inferior than some top 8*s and 9*s...how am I so sure of this? Watch how stuff on PSU was designed...they actually ended up releasing A ranks stronger than some S ranks at some point of the game. They will eventually do the same thing here.

I dont really feel bad for having all my useable weapons at +10 and with Souls + Lv3 affixes. If new and better equipment is released, I will still try to get them with the same or better parameters.

[Valymer]

If all you are trying to do is Affix one Soul (50%?) and you keep constantly failing yes that sucks, luck like this is possible and I did say I dislike RNG.

Though again meanwhile do you really need that Soul on your weapon to get enjoyment out of the game? I know attempting something like that could leave you frustrated but Venting here is not going to change anything.

Not defending Sega here at all as I dislike RNG, just seems like people are bringing on the frustration on themselves as they know what they are in for when playing with Luck. More so for unneeded Trivial Boosts.

The problem is that right now there is NOTHING ELSE to do because of the low level cap. This is SEGA's idea of "enjoyment" at level 40. If you aren't trying to upgrade your weapons and armor then why log in? To chat with friends? I can do that with AIM et.al., I don't need PSO2 to do that. MMOs are supposed to be about character advancement. I mean that has always been their biggest draw and selling point. But you are saying to just ignore the only method for character advancement in this game, and "enjoy" running the same 2-3 maps over and over again ad naseum...for what? For the challenge?? Yeah...

But anyways I don't feel the need to debate this anymore, if some people think that this system is worthwhile and fun then by all means knock yourself out. I certainly won't be wasting any of my time or meseta with it.

[Cyclon]

Learn to read posts. I just said systems where hundreds or thousands of rolls are passable because of how ridiculously rare it is to fall through the cracks. I'll let that fly, fine. Rare drops, crits, whatever. But a system like this is absurd, and to ignore the rest of my posts in favor of taking one snippet out of context is just asinine.
You seem to be using the "read my posts" one a lot. I've read your posts, and I have read this:

RNG is bullshit. If you don't see that you're either an idealist or an idiot (what's the difference). Laws of averages sound all kinds of great until you realize some players lose out massively while others win out massively. In reality using an RNG for something like this is nothing but lazy and an admission that you can't implement a smart or properly balanced system.
That sounds like a basic anti-RNG point of view. Don't post things if you don't want people to react to them. And as asinine as you may think it was, the fact is that you are overreacting here.

Anyway.

but when failure means losing money, time, progress, AND efficiency? Hell no. Hell. No.
You need to realize that time IS money, progress and efficiency. The problem here is not what failing does, but how often you fail. That's why extremely low drop rates would lead to the exact same problems.
Like I said, this system is harsh.


Yep, I sure do, that's why I said it.
Well, have fun farming then.

[gigawuts]

You seem to be using the "read my posts" one a lot. I've read your posts, and I have read this:

That sounds like a basic anti-RNG point of view. Don't post things if you don't want people to react to them. And as asinine as you may think it was, the fact is that you are overreacting here.I do say it a lot, don't I? Sounds like a basic anti-RNG point of view, maybe, but isn't. Note the "something like this," and then note that earlier I'd said RNG systems can be fine with enough rolls and only costing time.


Anyway.

You need to realize that time IS money, progress and efficiency. The problem here is not what failing does, but how often you fail. That's why extremely low drop rates would lead to the exact same problems.
Like I said, this system is harsh.

Oh, I'm entirely aware of the relation between time and money. Which is why this is so frustrating. The time required to gain 2.5m for even a hardcore player is in the order of DAYS. For ordinary players you're looking at WEEKS.

And I lost it without any trace of success, or indication that it might cost more than that. Why would I think a rare item that itself takes weeks to find for normal players would take further weeks to upgrade? It never says it. It just says "RISK" with the chance. I consider risky 50%. I consider THESE chances to be "HEADDESK."

[Vashyron]

Those that were replying to me I actually agree with most points there in all those posts, thing is I still find it very trivial to do so.

If you've seen my videos I've soloed both Panther type bosses as HU with "crappy gear" you could find via the matterboard and the units could probably have been bought for less than 100K in Player shops, then grinding to +10 for low ranked stuff is Cake.
Now why would I want to improve my gear after this? It's only going to be easier in a party and "lol" Multiparty.

As for there being nothing else to do right now, I agree it's actually why I have 3 characters at this point so I have something more enjoyable to do with PSO2 rather than get frustrated with upgrading my gear that I feel I don't need. It's that and going to play other games if I got burnt out instead of forcing myself to play PSO2, can always come back when the next update hits.

I know the current system is crap, some get lucky and some don't, just throwing it out there that you may just be needlessly frustrating yourselves.

[DonMakaveli]

lol i wish i didn't started this thread. Sorry for the long post, and please people let's try to not fight much..

I'm with gigawuts and i think some people here are missing the point. The whole point of this topic wasn't "oh i can't have +10 weapons im so mad" for most players in here that doesn't even matter and why? because SEGA took shops from us, why would i care wasting now a bunch of k's to get my shred legacy to +10 when there's 2 better launchers out there already and i won't be able to sell my shred after i get one of those..

While i don't agree with gigawuts saying everyone will ragequit from the game because of it, some people might, i left psu after wasting all my money on high end kubara shotguns and watch them all getting broken by grinders. Someone said and it's probably the best quote from this entire topic "Game's are supposed to be fun, how is this system fun?" and that's what's right.

The system is based on RNG's which in computer science is known to be a process computer's can't handle there's no truly randomness. The whole point of this thread is the whole injustice involved in the process.

One person might pay 60 somethin k and get a tigredor from 0 to +10.
Second person might pay 400k and be sitting with a +3, that's not a fair system.

Again meseta wouldn't weight as much if shops were free, again gigawuts has it right, the game right now has nothing to do but farm to get money to get better weapons, what else is there to do? For a regular player with no shop you will make what? 300k a day if you farm heavily? Just to see your whole day's "work" going down the toilet because of an unfair system.. THIS IS NOT FUN!

The whole topic is not about how chances should be improved because the chances are not the problem, is the RNG. The whole topic is not about everyone should have +10's or it should be easy, it shouldn't! but the system can be too frustrating and not random at all as it should be.

My sugestion again.
Increase grind, affix costs i don't care.
Decrease %'s don't care either.
Make grind protection items and others as uncommon and rare drops and allow multiple use of them.

How is this system more fair if the %'s are lower? If the costs are higher? You might end wasting money and end with the same grind. True, but there won't be any frustration involved.

Let's say for a 9* weapon would cost
15k from levels 1-3
30k from levels 4-7
60k from levels 7-9
120k for the last level

and you had a 5% chance of sucessfully grinding a +9. You could use 3 (-1) risk protection items which would be uncommon drops or a total protection being a rare drop, and you would just pay 120k and 120k and 120k and 120k til u get your +10. It would make you mad when you fail? If you give it 10 tries and you still had a +9? Sure, but what pisses people off is seeing their weapons going from +8 to +5 while wasting money on it, not the fact that they stood at +8.

+10 Rare weapons would still cost a ton as they wouldn't be cheap to make at all, nor easy. People just wanna test their luck without these awful risks.

They either release protection items as drops, or they eliminate risks when you drop grind levels while raising the cost, i think this is the most simple idea.

Your rare goes from 8 to 6, well from 6 to 8 there won't be no risks and you will pay extra, you can still fail your grinds but you won't go from 6 to 4 or from 7 to 3 or whatever. No risks til the weapon is +8 again. The system the way it is, is just too frustrating and too punishing. Nobody wants an easier way, they want a more fair way.

[SaiKo]

I've got to say that I disagree with Gigawuts on the point that the Western Market will all thumb their noses at the game due to these systems, simply because PSU was far, FAR worse (and far more blatantly designed to accomodate a moneygrab system the US never got) and it STILL pulled at least semi-decent numbers. And with crap like AIKA Online surviving.... yeah...

But that said, I do agree the system is bollocks. Granted I hate the way the game handles rares in general. Finding a Rare should be a happy and exciting event. In this game however, it tends to be a fairly trivial and insignificant thing dragged down even further with the knowledge it could lead to a fairly horrid nightmare if you dare to look Dodo in the eyes.

I'd really prefer it if rares were either completely un-upgradable and had fixed bonuses at this point... Well, and they should be worthwhile in general, but that ship has sailed... <_<

[Gardios]

I honestly think it's fine the way it is right now. x:

[sugarFO]

I honestly think it's fine the way it is right now. x:

Get out. Lol jk. ^^

I'm just waiting on the price of the rare I'm wanting to go down. Any money I save is the money I can use to upgrade it. And I'll definitely need a lot of it with my luck in grinding/affixing. -cries at the memory of grinding her stella-

[Valymer]

Vashryon said it best. I'm gonna just play something else until this game is actually released in it's entirety, while Alt-Tabbing in to mag feed (unless this GG bullshit keeps crashing PSO2, in which case fuck it)